The barrier between space and earth

[Rahmota]

Okay i was going back over my notes for my rifts game, and wanted to share my interpretation of the barrier between the orbital community and the ground.

The way I run it in my game, there is no counter orbital debris field, but a magical time barrier. The counter orbital field or killer satellites are too cliche as well as easy to get around with technological means. As well as the idea that no one downstairs could or would be able to talk to anyone upstairs is just plain goofy. All it would take would be a shortwave radio fromthe 50s to be able to talk to someone and since the stations a frakkin huge its not like you wouldnt know someone or somethign was up there. Look at how bright and obvious the ISS and then realize that in Mutants in Orbit the orbital stations are larger by a factor of 10 in some cases more. So I wanted to truely cut the orbital community off from mother earth totally and absolutely as well as removing all the benefits of orbital Comm sats, GPS, weather sats, spy sats, etc..

Anythign passing trough the barrier which is only abot 6 inches thick is shifted backwards by about 100,000 years per inch. This results in anyone on the ground looking up seeing the sky as it looked about the time of the dinosaurs. most of the stars are still there as are the other planets but some of the nebula and pulsars are not there nor are the orbital stations. Nor are the constellations the same. To those who looked up after the skies cleared and saw the alien sky they became even more frightened. Looking down on the earth from above the orbitals are unable to find any trace of human civilization. All radio and other communication systems are shifted as well. This is why orbital communications do not work. It is an absolute shield to any non-temporal magics or effects being able to pass through it. radar goes down but the return is time shifted so it is 600,000 years ago. a time well before any shhips or satellites. So to the orbitals they cannot go home again ever. And everythign and anythign and anyone they knew and saw and talked to is GONE. Aboslutely as if they had never existed. At least from every sensor they have, and with no probe ever returning, no ship ever landing the mother earth is denied to them. Makes it more traumatic and emotionally impacting to me.

The effect on material objects passing through it is extremely destructive as well. With each inch of travel progressively shifting an object 100,000 years the temporal shear tears anythign that encounters the barrior apart.

So anyhow thought I would share this for your amusement, scorn, or apathy.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

i think it was intended to be a challenge for player characters. they're supposed to want to make the attempt to break earth orbit. It's like battling the 4 Horsemen or taking down the Prosek Regime. It's one of those things that everyone who has ever played Rifts wants to do at some point.

Which is why it doesn't bother me that the orbital debris field idea isn't 100% scientifically sound. And the "killer" satellites really aren't, if you check their stats. If it was totally impossible to break orbit, then there would be no fun in trying.

[Mechanurgist]

That's a helluva lot of time travel. What's generating the energy to shunt so much matter/energy backwards in time? Is it a natural phenomena or artificial, and if the latter who's doing it? Those are the things my players would immediately ask, and at some point you'd have to answer them, otherwise it's just a flaky deus ex machina.

[taalismn]

I just used a layer of high atmosphere that reacted with magical thunderstorms and turbulence, hammering the hell out of anything physical and material entering or leaving, with a 10+% chance of a random rift opening up and swallowing the transiting object/vessel and heaving it...somewhere...

[DhAkael]

How Kevin Siembiada kept hammering home "It is impossible don't even try! Your PC's will diediediediedieDIEEEEEEEEEEE!", sorta put MAJOR dampers on peoples enthusiasm, that and he refuses to update 'Mutants in orbit'.
Personally, I just blanket ignore his metaplotz, tell the nay-sayers on these threads to keep their opinions THEIRS, and allow for my players to make the attempt.

Cuz seriously; shifters in a group can make it to Phaseworld from Terra (and Vice versa). Enough hard currency in the way of gems, tech, or other tradable goods will make for importing of non "gimped" tech which WILL allow an attempt at the orbital area of Terra to be feasible. Also; Technowizards WILL brainstorm (Re; remember the Ironships of the Smithy? Yeah; those were just cold-rivted subs with rockets and a whack-load of magic).

In my campaign? Enlightend self-interest on the part of UN-Spacy city of Landing (Vancouver) & Lazlo along with that of Freedom Station, opened up tentative trade realtions and mutal defense pacts. The Coalition is still ground bound (the Orbitals, being at least HALF emancepated antho-animals do NOT like them), but the Orbitals refuse to intercede via "rocking" the CS from orbit. It's just not done.

This all took over several years REAL-TIME to set up, and is still evolving.
Yes, Lazlo and the UN-S can access the outer-black.

No, they can not do it at a whim and DO require clearences and protocols to be adhered to, just like in real-life with air-travel and customs.

Yes, The Orbitals have been given slightly more advanced tech (Like Artificial Gravity and Inertial Dampers) from ground-dealings with Naruni and other orginizations that the "mud-slugs" have bought over the years. Also magitech (re; Technowizradry) has become quite popular for those Orbitals who have psionics or mystic potential.

No, the Orbitals have NOT been given FTL technology (yet).

GM's ... do what you want with your own game-verse, but remember, some of your players WILL want to expand the world to greater horizons (Rogue scientists and scholars especially). Be recptive to the notion, and give them the oportunity to "search for the key to open the door to the heavens". if you're willing.

Just sayin'

[Mechanurgist]

I just used a layer of high atmosphere that reacted with magical thunderstorms and turbulence, hammering the hell out of anything physical and material entering or leaving, with a 10+% chance of a random rift opening up and swallowing the transiting object/vessel and heaving it...somewhere...

Wouldn't that mean the stars/sky are not visible, and that climate is seriously affected (another ice age)? Seems a bit heavy handed, but I suppose it would work. Solar flares and magic strengthening/disrupting the van Allen radiation belts would also do the trick; the shielding necessary to protect any kind of electrical/electronic systems trying to reach orbit would be ultratech and beyond Rifts Earth tech levels.

But I'm all for players trying, they need hope and the attempt could be great fun.

[Rahmota]

The field is a magical generated construct. Given that Rifts Earth is basically ground zero for pretty much any and all magical phenomina in the entire multiverse it makes sense. within the scheme of things.

As for how to get through it you cannot. Not trhough it directly. Any attmept results in time shift or destruction or both. You have to think outside the box and go around it. A rift portal with those risks, a dimensional shift, time shift if you can handle that.

The isolation between earth and space increases the horror to those on both sides. They both feel that everyone on the other side of the barrier has been removed from the entire universe. At least the comon people who dont have access to the ways around it.

[taalismn]

I just used a layer of high atmosphere that reacted with magical thunderstorms and turbulence, hammering the hell out of anything physical and material entering or leaving, with a 10+% chance of a random rift opening up and swallowing the transiting object/vessel and heaving it...somewhere...

Wouldn't that mean the stars/sky are not visible, and that climate is seriously affected (another ice age)? Seems a bit heavy handed, but I suppose it would work. Solar flares and magic strengthening/disrupting the van Allen radiation belts would also do the trick; the shielding necessary to protect any kind of electrical/electronic systems trying to reach orbit would be ultratech and beyond Rifts Earth tech levels.

But I'm all for players trying, they need hope and the attempt could be great fun.

The 'barrier' is normally transparent like the atmosphere normally is, but residual eddies from storms being triggered by stuff coming(including micrometeors) in or trying to leave create localized disturbances rather than hemisphere-wide permanent cloud and gloom)....the disturbances triggered by the rain of small stuff might distort some some detail of the heavens as seen from the surface(wreaking havoc with detailed astronomical observations but not astrological divination) and would help account for Earthers being unable to get detailed readings on what's in orbit(they know stuff's up there, but they're not going to be able to get a high-resolution picture of the Crab Nebula or the big corporate logo on the side of Freedom Station).

[Svartalf]

While an interesting concept and your call should you be a GM, I've always felt that the satelittes and orbital communities trying to keep earth contained wasn't a solid situation.

While this isn't a real issue given a campaign set only on earth, a free run campaign may see players wishing to try to find a way out if they learn of what lay beyond (phase world, the three galaxies, etc etc)

Now if you go by the standard storylines of d-bees and alien races, its actually not difficult for someone who doesn't belong to the coalition mindstate to figure out whats going on.

Not to mention with the trade regulations in place, Naruni is still all about the credits.
I'm fairly certain waving enough credits around would get you access to either transportation or an actual ship for sale to attempt to break the blockade.

Once again that is just my opinion, and I know a large number of campaigns that are rifts earth only.

You forget that in the Rifts universe, the basic position is that galactic travel to and from earth is done via dimensional travel, not by space ship
There's even a strong option for the Aliens Unlimited "Milky Way" (as per HU official line) to be relocated in the parallel universe of the 3 Galaxies as a part of the CCW.

Kevin won't chase you with a shotgun if you survive the killer satellite and visit the Mutants in Orbit space stations, or go beyons, but if you do that, you, as a GM, are making a significant departure from the universe, and you won't find support for that in either the official books, the rifter, or anything with pally's blessing, ever.

[Astral Pantheon]

How Kevin Siembiada kept hammering home "It is impossible don't even try! Your PC's will diediediediedieDIEEEEEEEEEEE!", sorta put MAJOR dampers on peoples enthusiasm, that and he refuses to update 'Mutants in orbit'.
Personally, I just blanket ignore his metaplotz, tell the nay-sayers on these threads to keep their opinions THEIRS, and allow for my players to make the attempt.

Cuz seriously; shifters in a group can make it to Phaseworld from Terra (and Vice versa). Enough hard currency in the way of gems, tech, or other tradable goods will make for importing of non "gimped" tech which WILL allow an attempt at the orbital area of Terra to be feasible. Also; Technowizards WILL brainstorm (Re; remember the Ironships of the Smithy? Yeah; those were just cold-rivted subs with rockets and a whack-load of magic).

In my campaign? Enlightend self-interest on the part of UN-Spacy city of Landing (Vancouver) & Lazlo along with that of Freedom Station, opened up tentative trade realtions and mutal defense pacts. The Coalition is still ground bound (the Orbitals, being at least HALF emancepated antho-animals do NOT like them), but the Orbitals refuse to intercede via "rocking" the CS from orbit. It's just not done.

This all took over several years REAL-TIME to set up, and is still evolving.
Yes, Lazlo and the UN-S can access the outer-black.

No, they can not do it at a whim and DO require clearences and protocols to be adhered to, just like in real-life with air-travel and customs.

Yes, The Orbitals have been given slightly more advanced tech (Like Artificial Gravity and Inertial Dampers) from ground-dealings with Naruni and other orginizations that the "mud-slugs" have bought over the years. Also magitech (re; Technowizradry) has become quite popular for those Orbitals who have psionics or mystic potential.

No, the Orbitals have NOT been given FTL technology (yet).

GM's ... do what you want with your own game-verse, but remember, some of your players WILL want to expand the world to greater horizons (Rogue scientists and scholars especially). Be recptive to the notion, and give them the oportunity to "search for the key to open the door to the heavens". if you're willing.

Just sayin'

Very similiar with what happened to my old group but the Spacer became very interested in "creation" magics. Create wood, create water, ect... and Orbital Conjurer's and Healers' College was born When you can create water from nothingness or can heal others your treated like gold.

[azazel1024]

I go with a magical barrier as well. The explination in MiO just is completely unworkable on every level.

As for the stations size, the closest station is about 100 times further away than the ISS, so even though most are 10+x bigger than the ISS, they are going to appear smaller unless you have a decent telescope.

That said, anyone with a decent telescope should be able to find them with some searching. Might take a couple of nights of observation, but you'll see them up there (let alone a good high powered radar set).

[DhAkael]

I go with a magical barrier as well. The explination in MiO just is completely unworkable on every level.

As for the stations size, the closest station is about 100 times further away than the ISS, so even though most are 10+x bigger than the ISS, they are going to appear smaller unless you have a decent telescope.

That said, anyone with a decent telescope should be able to find them with some searching. Might take a couple of nights of observation, but you'll see them up there (let alone a good high powered radar set).

One word; Gundam.

The space colonies in that 'verse are all located at the Lagrange points (stable areas where the gravity of the Moon, Earth & Sun cancel each other). I'd assume that the orbitals would do simmilar in the rifts 'verse. Yeah, space is BIG. Don't be affraid to use the (pun intended) "space" available .

[taalismn]

[


Very similiar with what happened to my old group but the Spacer became very interested in "creation" magics. Create wood, create water, ect... and Orbital Conjurer's and Healers' College was born When you can create water from nothingness or can heal others your treated like gold.

Damn that's good! Usually it's the otehr way around..."The Orbitals have nicer toys, so everybody of Rifts Earth goes up to acquire them", whereas it's more likely the opposite: the mighty Orbitals are hurting for food, every inch of living space requires hours, if not days, of mining, refining, and manufacturing, and every breath, every sip of water, has to be mined from somewhere else. Compared to that, the people at the bottom of the gravity well are livin' in the lap of luxury!

[DhAkael]

[


Very similiar with what happened to my old group but the Spacer became very interested in "creation" magics. Create wood, create water, ect... and Orbital Conjurer's and Healers' College was born When you can create water from nothingness or can heal others your treated like gold.

Damn that's good! Usually it's the otehr way around..."The Orbitals have nicer toys, so everybody of Rifts Earth goes up to acquire them", whereas it's more likely the opposite: the mighty Orbitals are hurting for food, every inch of living space requires hours, if not days, of mining, refining, and manufacturing, and every breath, every sip of water, has to be mined from somewhere else. Compared to that, the people at the bottom of the gravity well are livin' in the lap of luxury!

Why do you think the first trade contract was for water & air creation magics (not enough to destabalize the orbital economy)?

[keir451]

For me Rifts Space is too depauperate, not enough stuff. So my friends an I keep the orbital debris ring and add in a whole new slew of stations. 1st is Hawking station, an USAF space base/colony, then there is the Son of Heaven, a Chinese Particle beam satellite, the VTU (Vega Technologies Unlimited a pre Rifts mega-corp of extreme capability) Earthcrusher, a massive MAC cannon that fires a VW bug sized slug of nickel iron at .99 of light. And a massive quad barreled X-ray laser platform built by the US Military (USARMY), we've yet to name it tho' .
The three weapon stations sit in a triple detente, Son of Heaven is positioned to fire on Earthcrusher, Earthcrusher is positioned to fire on Beijing, and the MilSat is positioned to fire on Son of Heaven. The system is also home to any number of space pirates hiding out in the asteroid belt as well as the Arkhon and the rest of the orbital colonies, all of our stations (except the Moon) have Artificial Gravity (either by spin or as an actual technology).
We even went ahead an decided that the CS built a starship back before they stopped attempting to get into space (refered to as Hammond's Folly), it was never fully completed (no real armor, main computer is a joke, and enviromentals are for crap), her frame is an Pre-Rifts VTU product (VTU built anything and everything they wanted to and were major suppliers of equipment for the US Army) and is nearly indestructable, made of an alloy we call titanium hyper diamond (titanium and diamond fused under Jovian class gravities).
Weapon sytems were installed and oddly enough are functional.

[Dr Megaverse]

I've always tried to operate within the constructs of the cannon material. As it is, MiO paints a difficult situation for getting to outer spacer, however there are several very easy ways of doing this with cannon resources.

Most notably is the ability to Rift to a Three Galaxies world and buy advanced spacefaring tech. A Naruni counter-grav space fighter with a heavy duty force field installed could probably make it.

However I've always liked the A.R.C.H.I.E. angle. His satellite uplink at Titan HQ is a weak point for him, considering his rather exotic defensive measures, and one that I feel is exploitable. If you can uplink with the space communities, couldn't you transmit a virus as well? Perhaps, getting a little crazy here, a transferred intelligence across an uplink? Had an idea about having an intelligence transferal in the Three Galaxies, coming back to earth, raiding the Titan HQ uplink, and transmitting said transferred intelligence up to the A.R.C.H.I.E. in the CAN Republic overwhelming said computer in the process. You could control the CANs resources that way, considering the high degree of automation featured in pre-Rifts tech. You could even try broadcasting to the tech cities in Australia and try doing the same thing. Sure it's a little exotic, but sounds fun!

As for a mystical reason for Earth being shrouded? SA2 says:

When the space fold system of the Arkhons deposited teh fleet near Eath orbit, disaster struck once again. The dimensional energies around Earth played havoc with the space folding systems of the alien ships.

This leads me to believe there is indeed a Rift related issues that prevents certain types of FTL space travel from not operating correctly. However, a decent portion of the Arkhon fleet makes it to Earth for a crash landing, so it's definitely not impervious.

Anything worth doing, is hard.

[taalismn]

i can dig an orbital defense network being 2 badass for earth nations to get past but i totes agree that its rly dumb to think no hightech nations know that theres dudes in orbit

And festering resentment of the 'Uppers'...until somebody discovers how bad they got it(and in a space habitat, there's really no place to dodge from a giant rifts-borne monster or recently-hatched giant insect rampaging aboard).

[Rahmota]

Okay first off lets get somethign straight: When you look up you see the light that is reflected off of an object. an object that is several miles across and coverd with shiny reflectors such as windows, solar panels, antennae you are GOING to see them. With the naked eye they will appear to be at most a bright dot. Except maybe the Euro station which is several miles across tethered just outside the atmo. Which means you would see a small disk. With a small telescope or binocs you will see the structure of the station. Also with all the high thrust engines, energy fire and such it is absolutely obvious that you would see all of that. And it would take just a few seconds of looking up to see them as they would be unnaturally bright objects in the sky.

For some real world science check out this website:http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/index.php Very good information.

So that is why i made the barrier shunting the light backwards. So that when a person on the surface of the planet looks up they see ONLY those objects that where there a hundred thousand years ago. So as far as the surface dwellers go there is nothign and no one upthere. All the ships, all the stations, all the colonies (my space was a lot more populated than canon) are gone. The earth is all alone in the night with nothign but the rifts. And vice versa. From the people at the stations point of view all the people on earth are gone. Mostly its psychological as with dimensional shifting and rifting you can get aorund it. but not through it.

If a PC took a ship from the surface and pointed it at the moon as soon as he hit the barrier unless he had some magical anti-death thing. i would say "hand over your character sheet the character is now dead, atomized and unrecoverable."

[Bood Samel]

I personally never had an issue with the space barrier or the material, only that it was very bare bones. Though it does give enough of a framework to build off of. But if you want a magic barrier rather then a debris field, then hey why not? In the past 20+ years of playing rifts I think for me space has only popped up 2 or 3 times.

[taalismn]

Yeah, the Earth nations would LOVE to get satellite communications and orbital recon, but it just ain't happening with more immediate concerns at home. And if they DID get into orbit, odds are the Splugorth would catch wind of it, and if they felt threatened by the local monkeys sending rockets up, as dependent on dimensional travel as they are, the Splugs would simply get their own monkeys to come up with something to get them into orbit too. And odds favor the Splugs if they get out into orbit. Kiss the Orbitals bye-bye if the Splugorth take a serious interest in local space.

And attractive as all that ice and dirt is down at the bottom of the gravity well, the Orbitals are deadly afraid of what comes with it. Going out to the Belt or Mars or the Jovian moons may be a haul, but you're not fighting monsters all the way, and you're not fighting to hold a beachhead while you're rocketing tankers and dirt haulers up to orbit. Right now the Orbitals are too few and too fractioned to consider mounting the sort of expedition that could hold a patch of Earth's surface long enough for them to get enough material with their existing technologies to justify the massive costs. It would be like invading a large heavily-armed leper colony, surrounded by wild animals, to get at their well.

[keir451]

But if they're interested in survival they should be totes interested in space. a satellite communication network would let them stay in touch with other human powers all over the world. spy satellites would let them track monster migrations & spy on the baddies. weapon platforms would let them zap baddies with super weapons that virtually nobody on rifts earth could touch. any rifts earth place with enough science & tech to build bad ass combat mecha should also be interested in what space can do for them

A few things to remember.

It takes more Delta-v (thrust) to launch an object into orbit the further away from the equator you get.

It takes the same amount of Delta-v to launch a ~5,000 kilo payload into Geostationary Transfer Orbit (GTO) AKA Geosynchronous Orbit, as it takes to put a ~20,000 kilo payload into Low Earth Orbit, or to launch a ~100,000 kilo payload 13,000 km (~8077 miles) in a transcontinental, sub-orbital arc.

For the amount of resource (without research and development) needed to launch one small payload into GTO, a nation could likely build 1400 PA's or 100 Combat robots.

Orbit should really wanna get back to earth. right now they're so desperate that sending dudes on a trip that takes months just to mine some rocks & ice in the asteroid belt is a profitable business deal. & this is while they're sitting on top of a planet that's 2/3rds covered with water & & has breathable air u never have to scrub & where you can grow crops just by putting them in dirt & letting nature do its thing.

.

Besides the monsters...

They were never exposed to the multiple alien plagues, they would not have any immunities to them and remember that the orbitals are closed, heavily recycled environments. Think of the effect that smallpox had on the Native American tribes, then think how quickly a plane (boat or submarine) full people get sick, if one person comes aboard that is sick.

They also have biological issues, even relatively short stays in low-G/micro-G environment cause bone density loss, muscle atrophy, loss of body mass and a weakening of the immune system, among a host of other issues. This would likely require all spacers to use Robots, PAs, Exoskeletal Armors or an Exoskeleton of some sort just to move, never mind fight under earth normal gravity since their bodies have fully adapted to life in microgravity.

That is esp. true of the Lunar residents and the people living in Outcast Station, but less true of the other stations which IIRC all had some level of AG due to spin (or some such thing).
Ships headed out to the Asteroid belt probably have their crews execise while the ship is under thrust (thus generating "gravity") or have a section of the ship that rotates, much like the Earth Force ships in B5 and 2001. Then again, maybe not it's one of those "gray areas" left open by KS (I think?).

[taalismn]

Admittedly, Rifts Earth space is like the rest of America/the world in movies like Demolition Man...it's out there, it's just that there's no logical explanation for that great big world not to be rendering the set-piece story utterly pointless by its existence. Or, in this case, take focus away from the immediate locale(i.e. Rifts Earth, where all the action is really happening).
That having been said, hopefully some of the ideas suggested here(and yet to be suggested) will give GMs and PCs alike more options for those hoping to incorporate or exclude Rifts Space from their games.

[Rahmota]

Well my RIFTS games have gotten into outer space and all but considering how my orbital community actualy extends from the slave mines of Mercury to the Ice mines of Neptune there is a bit more to do than just the few stations and lunar colony. I also got rid of the stupid bad B movie attack of the giant bugs plot.

Traction drives dont exist in my game. Plasma Drive Torch shhips are the biggest and baddest tech available but they are lso the most expensive so only the united colonies military have them. Most ships are either chemical or ion drives. All drives have G under thrust but some have it due to rotational sections ala B5 or the 2001 Discovery.

[keir451]

That having been said, hopefully some of the ideas suggested here(and yet to be suggested) will give GMs and PCs alike more options for those hoping to incorporate or exclude Rifts Space from their games.

Contrary to what people might gather from my posts, I do include Rifts Space in my games. However, the earth based campaigns I have run in the past generally focus either on the ground or on the orbitals.

Occasionally the ground campaign may run into a relic, device or plot element which has an orbital origin or significance, but the main drive of the characters are usually far more concerned with terrestrial matters (survival, wars, politics, world-wide dangers, etc.) than going into space.

The space campaign's are even more focused on the needs of survival, war, and politics. Going down the gravity well to Earth is just not high on the agenda since the characters are all fearful of the dangers inherent to contact with the post-cataclysm Earth and since it far more fuel efficient to travel from orbit or the moon to Mars or the asteroid belt and back than to land and take off from Earth.

I use a lot of back of the envelope calculations to explain situations to my players, when the need arises. Delta-v budget is used with the mass of the vehicle and the efficiency of the propulsion system to determine how much fuel is required by the vehicle to successfully complete the planned maneuvers. By calculating the distance between the beginning and end points of the trip and using the ships mass with the drives force generated to determine the acceleration of the ship and the delta-v budget number you can get rough numbers for travel time.

Trip to Earth and back to GTO. (assuming use of a heat-shielded vehicle capable of atmospheric breaking and a controlled descent with the use of optimum launch/burn windows).
It takes a delta-v budget of around ~4 to travel from GTO to LEO, plus ~6 to maneuver and land in a controlled manner. It then takes ~10 to reach LEO, plus ~4 to reach GTO. So the amount of delta-v total required for the round trip would be about ~24 (add~2 to ~6 if maneuvering is required due to not waiting for optimum launch/burn windows per transit step).

Trip to Mars and back to GTO. (assuming use of a heat-shielded vehicle capable of atmospheric breaking and a controlled descent with the use of optimum launch/burn windows). It takes a delta-v budget of around ~1 to travel from GTO to Mars Transfer Orbit (Mars TO), ~1 to drop into a mars Capture Orbit (Mars CO) plus ~6.5 to maneuver and land in a controlled manner. It then takes ~5.5 to reach Mars CO from the surface, plus ~1 to leave Mars CO and reach GTO. So the amount of delta-v total required for the round trip would be about ~13 (add~2 to ~6 if maneuvering is required due to not waiting for optimum launch/burn windows per transit step).

Trip to the Belt and back to GTO. (no heat shield required with the use of optimum launch/burn windows). It takes a delta-v budget of around ~2 to travel from GTO to the belt, ~6 for maneuvers within the belt. It then takes ~2 for the return trip from the belt to GTO. So the amount of delta-v total required for the round trip would be about ~10 (add~2 to ~6 if maneuvering is required due to not waiting for optimum launch/burn windows per transit step).

Wouldn't transiting to Mars take MORE out of the delta-v budget instead of less?

[azazel1024]

Only downside to minimum fuel burns, is that they take a really, really long time. They are fine if you are moving things like asteroids or payloads, but people not so good. A 10 month journey can't really be undertaken very often. For resonable travel between Earth and Mars you'd need several times more Delta-V to get the trips down to resonable "commuting" time frames. At the very least, I think Earth to Belt travel times would need to be no more than age of sail Europe to North American journey times, 4-12 weeks. Otherwise you are in a situation were travel almost never occurs. What you'd have are miners who go out on extended contracts for say a decade or two, pushing rocks (or refined materials on, probably, automated barges) back to the orbitals where they are needed. Contract ends they come home. ~10 months to Mars on near minimum fuel burn, but its more like 16-20 months to the belt from Earth.

That is a big power budget. Not something you'd see chemical rockets used for. I think you are going to find chemical rockets only used in cislunar space, and probably only for really "cheap" jobs and small payloads (boosting satellites to different orbits, small commuter shuttles, etc). Ion drives and Plasma drives are going to be the rule for anything outside of orbital space of a planet. Otherwise for resonable travel times you are going to be shipping 30-50x the payload mass as fuel just so you can scoot to Mars in only a month or two. At least with an Ion drive and a nuclear power source you might only have to ship equal payload weight as fuel, and a plasma drive probably a fair amount less.

This is of course assuming high thrust Ion drives have been invented as well as more efficient nuclear power supplies.

[azazel1024]

Sounds pretty resonable.

[Crucible]

I treat it as a scary myth.

[azazel1024]

Sounds pretty reasonable.

Thanks, I was try to strike a balance between the handwavium prevalent in so much of modern, mass market science fiction and reality.

I try to as well in my games (well, within reason...magic is a lot more handwavium than most things).

I go for science fiction that is heavily influence by actual science, rather than science fiction that pays lip service to real science (or in the case of Rifts, et al, science fiction that wouldn't know science if they met).