is going to PF instadeath for a borg

[csbioborg]

I was looking at that megaverse builder during the holiday
and the impression I got was the Palladium world is a negative energy place
so hi tech does not work there
now I understand this is a game tool for people not to show up to PF from rifts and start killing dragons with laser pistols
but still it is canon so I would like to know what happens if
a full conversion cyborg gets rifted to palladium fantasy
does he immediately die

also on that note does that mean rift technology like the ones in Manhunter not work on the Palladium world
would this mean they can send you there but you'd be stuck there essentially?

[taalismn]

Probably...but if the GM's feeling really generous they could rule that the 'Borg survives, but is effectively deaf, dumb, blind, moving at about a speed of 1d4, and if he isn't frozen stiff, if so weak that a kitten could knock him over, unless some mage effectively turns him into a golem(in which case I'd say he only gets HALF his original bonuses to move, and can only go at a fraction of his original speed, plus no high tech weapons....the 'borg is essentially having to order his magically-empowered body around manually, like having to relearn how to walk after a stroke or spinal injury). The 'borg's still a brick, he;s just a very slow-moving one.

[csbioborg]

if he had 200 mdc does he have 20000 sdc or 200 sdc by canon or at least the corpse
I found it a little confusing

[Carl Gleba]

IIRC Rifts Earth is also negative, meaning power is transfered by electrons. So I'm pretty sure a borg would be fine.

[Svartalf]

Humbug !

a) as described in the MVB, the energy matrix is a kind of convention, and no proper equivalences are given as to whether a"negative" energy universe actually works by the flow of negatively charged particles (aka electrons)...

b) High tech of a negative type does work in a negative universe, and we don't know what type the Rifts world is anyway

c)since the PF universe doesn't seem to have any kind of high tech, beside magic which works regardless of the energy matrix, either the energy matrix is none, and then borgs would indeed be doomed unless taken back to a world where their life support system works before their brains get damaged, or there's precisely zilch indicators whether which kindf high tech from other universes are able to function there.

[Svartalf]

Eff... So it was in there, just in a place I didn't think of looking up (I haven't seriously read that book again for a half decade)

[Mercdog]

Just my 2 cents.

I wouldn't kill him, but unless his weapons are tied into his power supply, he's working on limited ammo. Plus he's got no way to recharge his power systems (though it would likely be years before he needed to do so.

My rule is kind of based off the stats in DB: Skraypers, where the SDC rating for mechanical/non-living matter is pretty much double the MDC rating. So, using that as a basis, your example 200 MDC borg would have 400 SDC. You'd also likely want to assign him an AR that functioned as "natural" AR. Probably equivalent to a heavy suit of armor.

I don't have much info into the energy matrixes, but if anything I would rule that such things only functioned to weaken or strengthen objects/energies, not prevent their existence outright.

[Carl Gleba]

IIRC Rifts Earth is also negative, meaning power is transfered by electrons. So I'm pretty sure a borg would be fine.

Well your are the guy that wrote Megaverse builder, does that mean we can take this as a semi-offical answer?

You want an official answer, well here you go. A dimensions energy matrix is a plot element nothing more and a game master should use or or discard it to fit their game style.

For example; as a plot element you can use it invoke a sense of "time is of the essence". Big Bad borg is on a dimension hopping mission. His next stop is picking up some rare components in Caer Itom. Landing in PF he finds out his systems are starting to shut down and figures he has 24 hours before total system failure. Now your leisurely adventure to the PF world turns into a time crisis. Do you get d-port out and fail your mission, or do you press on and try to accomplish it before your shut down and become a big borg paper weight?

[Armorlord]

I was looking at that megaverse builder during the holiday
and the impression I got was the Palladium world is a negative energy place
so hi tech does not work there
now I understand this is a game tool for people not to show up to PF from rifts and start killing dragons with laser pistols
but still it is canon so I would like to know what happens if
a full conversion cyborg gets rifted to palladium fantasy
does he immediately die

also on that note does that mean rift technology like the ones in Manhunter not work on the Palladium world
would this mean they can send you there but you'd be stuck there essentially?

PF's Harmonic Resonance is at 'None', all advanced technology cannot function there. One of the defense measures the Old Ones setup their throne world for. As for borgs, their components cease to function, but will (somehow) have 2D6 hours of life support. For None the MDC to SDC is a straight conversion, just erase the M and put an S. That's the default for all conversions to dimensions that do not support the energy states of an MD universe- though it is suggested that universes with otherwise compatible physical laws take those numbers and double them, triple if particularly advanced.

And yes, if you had some form of tech-based dimensional travel, the device wouldn't function in any dimension of incompatible Harmonic Resonance. Though the argument could easily be made that those devices, particularly if it had to go with the travelers, wouldn't be able to successfully travel to a dimension it couldn't operate in.
It's been suggested that the dimensions that 'commonly' feature tech-based time and dimensional travel, TMNT/After the Bomb, are Positive Harmonic Resonance universes. Though I believe I picked up that theory on the boards, as I don't believe I've seen that one in a book.

[Edit: Triple checked and noticed Plato of Lazlo (Heyya Carl.) considers PF to be Neutral, rather than None. Same difference for anything coming from the outside though.]

[Svartalf]

Just my 2 cents.

I wouldn't kill him, but unless his weapons are tied into his power supply, he's working on limited ammo. Plus he's got no way to recharge his power systems (though it would likely be years before he needed to do so.

My rule is kind of based off the stats in DB: Skraypers, where the SDC rating for mechanical/non-living matter is pretty much double the MDC rating. So, using that as a basis, your example 200 MDC borg would have 400 SDC. You'd also likely want to assign him an AR that functioned as "natural" AR. Probably equivalent to a heavy suit of armor.

I don't have much info into the energy matrixes, but if anything I would rule that such things only functioned to weaken or strengthen objects/energies, not prevent their existence outright.

i think borgs run on nuclear supplies & their weapons are tied in to them (apart from stuff with ammo, natch). so he shoud be able to run around & shoot stuff for years. maintanance & food are where hes in trouble. nobody can do routine minor repairs or preventetive maintanance & if he needs special procesed nutrient to keep his brain alive coz he has no digestive system then hell starve to death once his internal supply runs out.

there rly isnt anything except rly badly written & obvious handwaving to stop a borg from kickin ass & takin names in PFRPG. hes just majorly boned if he gets stuck there & cant find a lift home.

Not in a world where his power supply doesn't work in the first place, and I find the earlier poster's take lacking in merit, though if it's his game, he's entitled to his rulings. Your version, though, lacks both logic and flair.

[Svartalf]

well, high tech people even going to the PF world is largely handwavium in the first place, so a little more to explain why Sploog raiders haven't laid the place to waste millenia ago is less contrived than one might think

[keir451]

I was looking at that megaverse builder during the holiday
and the impression I got was the Palladium world is a negative energy place
so hi tech does not work there
now I understand this is a game tool for people not to show up to PF from rifts and start killing dragons with laser pistols
but still it is canon so I would like to know what happens if
a full conversion cyborg gets rifted to palladium fantasy
does he immediately die

also on that note does that mean rift technology like the ones in Manhunter not work on the Palladium world
would this mean they can send you there but you'd be stuck there essentially?

I think you've got it backwards, Palladium isn't anti-tech it's just low tech. So a 'borg could function in Palladium but you'd treat him more as a Knight or Palladin for Armor class IMO. The 'borg doesn't die he just becomes SDC instead of MDC. If you brought a Rifts era Operator or Psi-tech or Coaltition Technical Officer to Palladium it would have the same effect as in A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. That person could advance the technology(ies) of the realm by several decades possibly even centuries.

[Armorlord]

Actually, if we're going to bring logic into this debate, logic would dictate that technology works just fine in the PF world. If natives of PF can dimensionally travel to other dimensions such as Rifts Earth (as demonstrated so many times in the books) without having any problems whatsoever, then logic dictates the reverse would also be true, and travellers from Rifts Earth would encounter no problems whatsoever travelling to the PF world. They might have trouble getting repairs, finding ammo, etc, but they could exist and their technology should work. It's not like the PF dimension is composed of anti-matter and the laws of physics are reversed or anything... If they can exist on Rifts Earth, and their gear and magic work just fine, then logically, the reverse would also be true.

Note quite, and no one said anything about anti-matter. You have to keep in mind that the Megaverse in general has vastly different physical laws that our own, or at the very least acknowledge locally. Living beings function anywhere, even in dimensions that lack the elements that make up their body or feature physical laws that mean you don't understand how anything works at all there. Blame it on the harmonic imprint of your BE field if you will, but we are talking about universes where the few constants are dimensional rifts, life-energy, and mind energy are underlaying principles, along superpowers that function everywhere. Life sciences are one of those things that demonstrably works differently, even moreso than inertia and momentum when dealing with MD dimensions.

And she's right anyway, lack of flair or not. The Energy Matrix idea is indeed a contrivance of handwavium to help beginner GMs. Carl just said so, and it says so in the MVB too, as I mentioned above. It's an option for GMs who don't want their players 'kicking too much butt' over the primitive magic users. Why you'd send your adventurers to PF if that is a concern to you is beyond me, but they give you a handy contrivance to use if you are concerned with it and do it anyway.

I wouldn't exactly call Carl there a 'beginner GM'. On top of that, the Palladium world is one of the more famous dimensional locations, that lack of technology is a factor they'd need to keep anybody from riding rough herd right over them. As for player characters, the GM may not have chose to send them there at all, it's only a rift or ticket at Phase World away unless the GM wants to throw his own artificial barriers at them.

[Armorlord]

he wasnt callin carl a 'beginner gm', just pointing out that carl said the rule is there to help beginner gms. its clumsy & cheap & it really stands out coz it was obviously written to help gms tell bossy players 'u cant do that' instead of to add flavour to the pally megaverse. pally arent the only guys to do this in their games but its almost ALWAYS sucky writing that hurts suspension of disbeleif when uve got stuff in the setting that only exists to be a Game Balance Policeman

Actually it would hurt my supension of disbelief if there wasn't anything stopping that. Otherwise there's no reason you wouldn't see liberal amounts of technology everywhere. The Megaverse is a huge interconnected place, we aren't talking about game balance here, we're talking about differing dimensional properties being one of the very few reasons that every dimension isn't invaded by the others and every setting becomes a homogenized mess.
Now, I like Rifts a lot, but I don't need to see the Western Empire fielding a army of Juicers backed by Naruni air superiority fighters against the Wolfen Empire reinforced by 3G Wolfen supremacists with a variety of stolen TGE and CCW ships and equipment. ..Even if that does sound kinda awesome.

[Svartalf]

Actually, you forget that while its magic level is currently at an ebb, Palladium still seems to be some kind of dimensional crossroads, and that a disproportionate number of travel incidents involve it (whether people or creatures leaving it, or otherworlders arriving there). Also note that 3 G Vulfen language is the same as that of Palladian Vulfens, and that it seems pretty impossible that professional transdimensional slave traders like the Ssplugorth should no know of it.

[Svartalf]

Far easier targets? define "far easier". it's low tech, low magic. Basically, it's defenceless against raiders with superior equipment, and the fact that the magic level will still support spells and psionics will let the properly endowed minions function efficiently. Even if it's small fry as a crossroads, it's still easily accessed, so even if it's not worth actually conquering and garrisoning, it's still full of easy pickings just waiting to be harvested. UNLESS, the native advantage of the spoogs, that is their tech and techno wizard equipment, is rendered inoperative, which would turn a band of raiders into just another pirate crew.

The magic of the locals is negligible, insofar that the magic or psi endowed individuals are pitifully few compared to what you find in a minion group. If the exceptional powerful element happens to be encountered, a retreat is possible, and a return in force, or avoidance of that individual, or the territory it defends can be effected, it's not like splugorth vehicles make a couple hundred miles a big matter, so long as they work. "Tangling" with god is even less likely than meeting an armed party or powerful individual able to resist a raiding party.

As for the Wolfen, the common background is just a proof of the ease of communication between the two settings... The Wolfen don't need to have actually recorded it, if specialists in dimensional travel (like the Splugorth or Naruni) can piece it together.

[Armorlord]

I'm just going to chop things out and reply to them for this one.

I never called Carl a beginner GM, nor implied such. He is a skilled designer and writer and an experienced GM,

Who came up with a simple and elegant way that keeps the Megaverse making sense.

..those of us who are experienced and don't need contrived systems to keep our players under control..
..And I have to disagree, the GM always has a choice. An experienced Palladium GM doesn't need such contrived balance systems to keep his players under control, but they are very useful for beginners. If you don't want them going to whatever dimension they want to, whenever they want to, then don't give them access to dimensional travel magic or Gateland at Phaseworld. Simple. If you give your players that option, that is your choice to do so, not the players choice. ;P A Coalition Combat Borg from Rifts Earth has no means to buy a ticket at Gateland unless the GM gives him that option in the first place. He wouldn't even be able to GET to Phaseworld without the GMs help/permission in the first place. The players also don't choose the destination of any random Rift they get caught in-- the GM does.

Thanks for spelling out what I would call heavy handed artificial GM barriers that also break suspension of disbelief.

I have less heavy-handed methods that don't stomp all over suspension of disbelief..

Somehow we have vastly different definitions of what that means.

..to prevent my players from bringing in 'higher technology' than their enemies have, if and when that is even an issue in the first place. Generally I just allow it, and let them deal with the in-game consequences. I prefer to use in-game methods to deal with the supposed problem, rather than heavy-handed 'it must be balanced' rules. Any piece of high technology or magic that is 'unbalancing' the game to the point it needs to be dealt with can easily be stolen or destroyed by agents within the gameworld, for example. And that will be a lot more fun for all of us than me saying, "Sorry, it doesn't seem to work. You hear a click, but nothing happens. The power source seems to be dead, even though you charged it up an hour before stepping through the Rift." Blah. I'd rather sick GSA or ISA agents on them, or a Naruni R&D team, to steal or destroy it.

Two things I'd like to address in this block. One is that you keep bringing up game balance and the party- This is the Palladium Megaverse we're talking about here, if you are experienced with the setting you should be having a harder time not casually crushing the party. Game balance against the player's is never a problem. Keeping settings from disrupting each other is a problem.
The other thing is that the 'squad of goons specifically after that thing the GM doesn't like' is the cheapest most heavy-handed player-stomping ploy in any GM's book, and no player is going to believe it was anything more than the GM trying to remove that thing he or she didn't like from the game. If our ideals are this different from each other's, we're probably not going to convince each other of anything.

Back on the core subject, differing laws of physics between settings, dimensions, game systems, books of sci-fi and fantasy, and the like have always been something I acknowledged long before I ever rolled a die. Hell, my core group of friends and I met over discussing hypothetical physics scenarios. Even a classic match-up like Star Trek vs Star Wars would come down to whose universe they're in and the various secondary effects from that.
I'm still pleasantly pleased that science caught up to most of my musings over the years. Between various data and brane theories darn near every crazy idea I came up with back then could pan out.. if there were a way to travel between them. The key for this point being that in theory every different universe brane would have different physics, likely vastly different ones.
The gimmie here isn't that some things don't work, it's that anything works at all between dimensions, particularly travel between and life in the first place.

Also, credit to Svartalf for his fine reponses as well.

[jarlaxle]

Wow The bickering. Its up to the GM its there to scare what i call "spoiler characters" they are the ones that read GM only section and then question you when you change something. (Ha Hand in the cookie jar.) As a gm i would never instantly kill a pc in such a manor. As the borg is out of place in the fantasy world he would be a target for all. It is a magic world magic is controlled bythe mind he would in such setting be a supernatural being a demon to these people and it would then be fair that magics and damages to said creature types. Perhaps he is actually mystically transformed to be some kind of knight-borg. Lasers = damage equal to call lightening(size and tech denoting level.) Have fun with it If you dont want you characters going there. Then they never make it. A shifter follows them through and alters the course. They are pulled out by the gods etc. In the end how ever it plays out i never pull ' you step through the rift and your dead' had a GM do stuff like that ruins the game for your players.

My next character never got past 800 xp in 3 years. Eod specialist disarms bio bomb that could have killed city no xp, h-h basic a laser pistol and huntsman armor against a bunch of samas no xp you didnt kill any of them, and since other players made a mockery of them they werent a threat. -- never mind it was shot 1 time on surprise attack then dodge for the next 8 melees and it wasnt my fault That a crazy with the telemechanics type psionics was able to take over a long range missile launcher nor that a whole unit of samas were some how in the one blast radius.

[Svartalf]

What's reasonable conduct from the GM heavily depends on context.

If the scenario relies on the team finding a way out of Palladium to save the borg before his life support gives up the ghost, said borg would need to be violently malfunctioning and possibly completely disabled.
If the GM just wants to take the team on a tour of the megaverse and they go through the Palladium world, it would be better form to let the borg act normally, even if glitches demand that the stay be short.
If it's the borg who wants to go play havoc on a primitive world and who's asking a shifter to open a way... all gloves are off, and he shall die whereby he sinned... unless his pals manage to get him back to a tech compatible world before his brains, weaned of life support, suffers irreparable damage.

[X'Zanthar]

well, high tech people even going to the PF world is largely handwavium in the first place, so a little more to explain why Sploog raiders haven't laid the place to waste millenia ago is less contrived than one might think

In our game, certain tech, like that from the HU verse will work. The Rifts, PW stuff will not UNLESS it is powered by techno-magic or is cybernetic (which will work but seems to have a very increased failure rate). We think the cybernetics work due to the life force link, but have not done much in the way of research (the poor borg npc who came once will not go back, lol)

The reason for the lack of traffic to the palladium world is probably due to the more active role the gods take there in keeping it isolated. Small amounts of tech might get in, but you arm a large force of zombies (several hundred) with body armor and slug throwers and you suddenly have a visit by your characters godly contact making sure you know the items in question should not be there. So far no one else has tried. My dragon has a couple of modified bots gathering lore and a small lair with a bit of tech that has so far been ignored.

The Sploog ARE aware of PW in our game, but consider it off limits. We have speculated that they also do not wish the Old Ones to get loose (a continuing background threat most PCs are aware of)

The chance of getting in and out also is harder than most other places. My dragon, who is from there, and our old summoner both feel a bit of resistance (a negative to the chance to go there) leaving, and more coming back in (except travel to hades and dyval), where others not from there say the resistance going in is really high, and usually have to be brought there first in order to access it.

The idea that the Old Ones limited tech in Palladium since it was a power base is a good one that makes sense. After all, give a farmer a gun and have him point it at the big mound of pulsating flesh is easier than training him to cast spells.

[Svartalf]

more handwavium

[Gazirra]

I wouldn't say PF is instant death, maybe a lesson in humility, but not death.

Now the Nightlands...
*Borg enters rift to Nightlands*
*Brain falls about 12 feet onto the ground*

[Svartalf]

Your rationale for that?

[X'Zanthar]

Your rationale for that?

If your referring to the Nightlands comment, the Nightlands are protected by a barrier that blocks all inorganics (IIRC, no book on hand) from coming in.

[Anthar]

IIRC Rifts Earth is also negative, meaning power is transfered by electrons. So I'm pretty sure a borg would be fine.

Well your are the guy that wrote Megaverse builder, does that mean we can take this as a semi-offical answer?

You want an official answer, well here you go. A dimensions energy matrix is a plot element nothing more and a game master should use or or discard it to fit their game style.

For example; as a plot element you can use it invoke a sense of "time is of the essence". Big Bad borg is on a dimension hopping mission. His next stop is picking up some rare components in Caer Itom. Landing in PF he finds out his systems are starting to shut down and figures he has 24 hours before total system failure. Now your leisurely adventure to the PF world turns into a time crisis. Do you get d-port out and fail your mission, or do you press on and try to accomplish it before your shut down and become a big borg paper weight?

Wow, the actual author says "OFFICIAL ANSWER HERE" and it gets ignored for 24 posts while people call him a beginner GM and the work "Handwavium". Plus the nitpicking about "canon" continues unabaited. Bravo people... -clap-clap-

[Chronicle]

the official rules states that the rules are optional to begin with. Why argue when you can clearly come to an agreement with your players as to how or why things work in your campaigns. personally i don't care about the "Physics" of a game as long as it is either common knowlege or atleast stated by the GM before game play.