Why be a Thief (Free Agent)?

[Nightmask]

Seems like you could do much better for a thief character with one of the other OCC. A Tinker Gizmoteer could take the Professional Thief program and with his Gizmoteer slots take all four of the Gizmoteer programs offered to a Thief and top it off with one other (say Vehicle Construction to touch on the Helicopter program available to the Thief, or Containment Fabrication to be able to conceal his gear as mundane items).

Going the Operative Agent route you can get two of the four Gizmoteer programs available to the thief, both Military programs, and round it out with another Espionage program that compliments the kind of thief Operative Agent desired (say Security Specialist if heavily focused on stealing information). Plus he gets any of the available Martial Arts that aren't exclusive.

Sure the thief gets a +12% bonus but it's not that much when you think about it compared to the flexibility of the other classes, and there's that 1d20 years you add to the age of the PC because he's considered to have a criminal record and has spent time in prison. Bad luck could easily result in having a 1st level character who's in his 40s.

[Desert Rat]

Because sometimes it is about character development and role playing and not about creating a numbers monster who is nothing more then a sheet of paper on the table who can beat the GM.

[Nightmask]

Because sometimes it is about character development and role playing and not about creating a numbers monster who is nothing more then a sheet of paper on the table who can beat the GM.

No one can beat the GM, he's got infinite resources in every category so even playing a Great Old One you'd still lose. At least if it was a conflict between the player and the GM, which it shouldn't be. Of which nothing I've said is contrary to role playing or character development. Where is one NOT getting either of those in given my suggestion and thoughts on the class?

[Regularguy]

Seems like you could do much better for a thief character with one of the other OCC. A Tinker Gizmoteer could take the Professional Thief program and with his Gizmoteer slots take all four of the Gizmoteer programs offered to a Thief and top it off with one other (say Vehicle Construction to touch on the Helicopter program available to the Thief, or Containment Fabrication to be able to conceal his gear as mundane items).

Going that route means you top out with an HtH instead of taking a martial art that grants actual super-powers along with bonus skills, so this comparison is apples and oranges. (A cat burglar who uses Karumi-Jutsu for 100% climbing skill during a heist, and leaps 10x his usual distance to do the impossible, and can make a perfect getaway by stepping off the skyscraper to safely fall a quarter of a mile to the street below -- plus he's a chi master? Interesting.)

Going the Operative Agent route you can get two of the four Gizmoteer programs available to the thief, both Military programs, and round it out with another Espionage program that compliments the kind of thief Operative Agent desired (say Security Specialist if heavily focused on stealing information). Plus he gets any of the available Martial Arts that aren't exclusive.

So if you want Aikido, go with the Thief, right?

But if you want Tae Kwon Do or Moo Gi Gong or Jujutsu, then, sure, you go with the Thief if you want to be a better pickpocket and a better forger, and a better locksmith in general and a better safecracker in particular, and better at escape artistry if captured and better at palming and concealment to keep from getting caught in the first place, and so on, but you already know that...

Sure the thief gets a +12% bonus but it's not that much when you think about it

...which means the Thief with TKD or MGG or JJ is only a better better choice if you're looking for a specific build: a gizmoteer with the right physical skills, or an espionage type who opted for a triple dose of gizmoteering, or whatever.

[JuliusCreed]

Seems like you could do much better for a thief character with one of the other OCC. A Tinker Gizmoteer could take the Professional Thief program and with his Gizmoteer slots take all four of the Gizmoteer programs offered to a Thief and top it off with one other (say Vehicle Construction to touch on the Helicopter program available to the Thief, or Containment Fabrication to be able to conceal his gear as mundane items).

Going the Operative Agent route you can get two of the four Gizmoteer programs available to the thief, both Military programs, and round it out with another Espionage program that compliments the kind of thief Operative Agent desired (say Security Specialist if heavily focused on stealing information). Plus he gets any of the available Martial Arts that aren't exclusive.

Sure the thief gets a +12% bonus but it's not that much when you think about it compared to the flexibility of the other classes, and there's that 1d20 years you add to the age of the PC because he's considered to have a criminal record and has spent time in prison. Bad luck could easily result in having a 1st level character who's in his 40s.

Personally, I do it for the contacts. Everybody I know underestimates the power of contacts in a N&S game. I love using them. And nobody gets underworld contacts like a true thief does. Tinker Gizmoteers get academic contacts in educational institutions. Same with the Operative Agent. But the underworld, where you can get your hands on all kinds of neat, nifty and largely illegal stuff, including many of the items both gizmoteers and agents can get? The Thief only.
Simply put, you can fake a thief with a different OCC and similar skills. But it's the contacts that make a real one.

[Nightmask]

Seems like you could do much better for a thief character with one of the other OCC. A Tinker Gizmoteer could take the Professional Thief program and with his Gizmoteer slots take all four of the Gizmoteer programs offered to a Thief and top it off with one other (say Vehicle Construction to touch on the Helicopter program available to the Thief, or Containment Fabrication to be able to conceal his gear as mundane items).

Going the Operative Agent route you can get two of the four Gizmoteer programs available to the thief, both Military programs, and round it out with another Espionage program that compliments the kind of thief Operative Agent desired (say Security Specialist if heavily focused on stealing information). Plus he gets any of the available Martial Arts that aren't exclusive.

Sure the thief gets a +12% bonus but it's not that much when you think about it compared to the flexibility of the other classes, and there's that 1d20 years you add to the age of the PC because he's considered to have a criminal record and has spent time in prison. Bad luck could easily result in having a 1st level character who's in his 40s.

Personally, I do it for the contacts. Everybody I know underestimates the power of contacts in a N&S game. I love using them. And nobody gets underworld contacts like a true thief does. Tinker Gizmoteers get academic contacts in educational institutions. Same with the Operative Agent. But the underworld, where you can get your hands on all kinds of neat, nifty and largely illegal stuff, including many of the items both gizmoteers and agents can get? The Thief only.
Simply put, you can fake a thief with a different OCC and similar skills. But it's the contacts that make a real one.

Reviewing the contacts between the options I listed they do look like a significant advantage for a game where you're dealing with a range of criminal organizations or the group could use a good chance at finding those criminal contacts to acquire things they can't easily. I wouldn't say that the contacts is what makes one a 'real' thief though, the best thief has never been caught after all.

[JuliusCreed]

Seems like you could do much better for a thief character with one of the other OCC. A Tinker Gizmoteer could take the Professional Thief program and with his Gizmoteer slots take all four of the Gizmoteer programs offered to a Thief and top it off with one other (say Vehicle Construction to touch on the Helicopter program available to the Thief, or Containment Fabrication to be able to conceal his gear as mundane items).

Going the Operative Agent route you can get two of the four Gizmoteer programs available to the thief, both Military programs, and round it out with another Espionage program that compliments the kind of thief Operative Agent desired (say Security Specialist if heavily focused on stealing information). Plus he gets any of the available Martial Arts that aren't exclusive.

Sure the thief gets a +12% bonus but it's not that much when you think about it compared to the flexibility of the other classes, and there's that 1d20 years you add to the age of the PC because he's considered to have a criminal record and has spent time in prison. Bad luck could easily result in having a 1st level character who's in his 40s.

Personally, I do it for the contacts. Everybody I know underestimates the power of contacts in a N&S game. I love using them. And nobody gets underworld contacts like a true thief does. Tinker Gizmoteers get academic contacts in educational institutions. Same with the Operative Agent. But the underworld, where you can get your hands on all kinds of neat, nifty and largely illegal stuff, including many of the items both gizmoteers and agents can get? The Thief only.
Simply put, you can fake a thief with a different OCC and similar skills. But it's the contacts that make a real one.

Reviewing the contacts between the options I listed they do look like a significant advantage for a game where you're dealing with a range of criminal organizations or the group could use a good chance at finding those criminal contacts to acquire things they can't easily. I wouldn't say that the contacts is what makes one a 'real' thief though, the best thief has never been caught after all.

Just a turn of phrase on the 'real thief' bit there to be honest, but you get the point obviously

[Nightmask]

Reviewing the contacts between the options I listed they do look like a significant advantage for a game where you're dealing with a range of criminal organizations or the group could use a good chance at finding those criminal contacts to acquire things they can't easily. I wouldn't say that the contacts is what makes one a 'real' thief though, the best thief has never been caught after all.

Just a turn of phrase on the 'real thief' bit there to be honest, but you get the point obviously

Yes, I tend to think self-sufficiently when it comes to a character rather than including things like contacts and favors as part of the equation. Tends to come from wanting to be sure my PC can do the job expected of him without letting his allies/friends down and contacts are an uncertain quantity compared to what the PC has built into himself.

[JuliusCreed]

Reviewing the contacts between the options I listed they do look like a significant advantage for a game where you're dealing with a range of criminal organizations or the group could use a good chance at finding those criminal contacts to acquire things they can't easily. I wouldn't say that the contacts is what makes one a 'real' thief though, the best thief has never been caught after all.

Just a turn of phrase on the 'real thief' bit there to be honest, but you get the point obviously

Yes, I tend to think self-sufficiently when it comes to a character rather than including things like contacts and favors as part of the equation. Tends to come from wanting to be sure my PC can do the job expected of him without letting his allies/friends down and contacts are an uncertain quantity compared to what the PC has built into himself.

I know what you mean. But I've been playing long enough to know there's no such thing as "the perfect character" At least not without going totally munchie with it. Nowadays I'll make characters that are great in their area of expertise and good with other things, but no matter how good he/she is, it's always good to have friends to help out. Whether the friends are other PC's or NPC's/contacts is pretty irrelevant, it's just good to have them when you go into the sharp end. And they can make for some really good role-playing opportunities in a game. Everything from negotiating with contacts to playing out actually getting in touch with/meeting them can make for some rather memorable experiences.

[Nightmask]

Yes, I tend to think self-sufficiently when it comes to a character rather than including things like contacts and favors as part of the equation. Tends to come from wanting to be sure my PC can do the job expected of him without letting his allies/friends down and contacts are an uncertain quantity compared to what the PC has built into himself.

I know what you mean. But I've been playing long enough to know there's no such thing as "the perfect character" At least not without going totally munchie with it. Nowadays I'll make characters that are great in their area of expertise and good with other things, but no matter how good he/she is, it's always good to have friends to help out. Whether the friends are other PC's or NPC's/contacts is pretty irrelevant, it's just good to have them when you go into the sharp end. And they can make for some really good role-playing opportunities in a game. Everything from negotiating with contacts to playing out actually getting in touch with/meeting them can make for some rather memorable experiences.

Sad how many will confuse that desire to be dependable as possible with being a munchkin, too quick to judge and toss labels around instead of evaluating things on their merit. I guess I just don't find the contacts available to the Thief (Free Agent) OCC worth the tradeoffs for either of the builds I offered up with regards to the Tinker Gizmoteer and Operative Agent. But having the contacts angle pointed out does give me some revised thoughts about the OCC and why others might find it worth those tradeoffs. Would make for an interesting PC group made up of various OCC each built around a version of a Thief sticking as closely as possible to the Skill Programs available to the Thief (Free Agent).

[JuliusCreed]

Yes, I tend to think self-sufficiently when it comes to a character rather than including things like contacts and favors as part of the equation. Tends to come from wanting to be sure my PC can do the job expected of him without letting his allies/friends down and contacts are an uncertain quantity compared to what the PC has built into himself.

I know what you mean. But I've been playing long enough to know there's no such thing as "the perfect character" At least not without going totally munchie with it. Nowadays I'll make characters that are great in their area of expertise and good with other things, but no matter how good he/she is, it's always good to have friends to help out. Whether the friends are other PC's or NPC's/contacts is pretty irrelevant, it's just good to have them when you go into the sharp end. And they can make for some really good role-playing opportunities in a game. Everything from negotiating with contacts to playing out actually getting in touch with/meeting them can make for some rather memorable experiences.

Sad how many will confuse that desire to be dependable as possible with being a munchkin, too quick to judge and toss labels around instead of evaluating things on their merit. I guess I just don't find the contacts available to the Thief (Free Agent) OCC worth the tradeoffs for either of the builds I offered up with regards to the Tinker Gizmoteer and Operative Agent. But having the contacts angle pointed out does give me some revised thoughts about the OCC and why others might find it worth those tradeoffs. Would make for an interesting PC group made up of various OCC each built around a version of a Thief sticking as closely as possible to the Skill Programs available to the Thief (Free Agent).

Sounds like a plan! Good luck with it!

[Nightmask]

Yes, I tend to think self-sufficiently when it comes to a character rather than including things like contacts and favors as part of the equation. Tends to come from wanting to be sure my PC can do the job expected of him without letting his allies/friends down and contacts are an uncertain quantity compared to what the PC has built into himself.

I know what you mean. But I've been playing long enough to know there's no such thing as "the perfect character" At least not without going totally munchie with it. Nowadays I'll make characters that are great in their area of expertise and good with other things, but no matter how good he/she is, it's always good to have friends to help out. Whether the friends are other PC's or NPC's/contacts is pretty irrelevant, it's just good to have them when you go into the sharp end. And they can make for some really good role-playing opportunities in a game. Everything from negotiating with contacts to playing out actually getting in touch with/meeting them can make for some rather memorable experiences.

Sad how many will confuse that desire to be dependable as possible with being a munchkin, too quick to judge and toss labels around instead of evaluating things on their merit. I guess I just don't find the contacts available to the Thief (Free Agent) OCC worth the tradeoffs for either of the builds I offered up with regards to the Tinker Gizmoteer and Operative Agent. But having the contacts angle pointed out does give me some revised thoughts about the OCC and why others might find it worth those tradeoffs. Would make for an interesting PC group made up of various OCC each built around a version of a Thief sticking as closely as possible to the Skill Programs available to the Thief (Free Agent).

Sounds like a plan! Good luck with it!

Sadly it'd mostly end up a mental exercise or something to test out for some fan-fiction using the setting but thanks for the wishes. Quite a few classes can cover enough of the basics from the Thief (Free Agent) to field a good-sized team, and makes for an interesting feature where everyone in the team has Espionage: Professional Thief as one of their skill programs.

[Regularguy]

Quite a few classes can cover enough of the basics from the Thief (Free Agent) to field a good-sized team, and makes for an interesting feature where everyone in the team has Espionage: Professional Thief as one of their skill programs.

How many can get that program (minus the Thief's +12% boost) while combining an exclusive martial art with gizmoteering skills?

[Nightmask]

Quite a few classes can cover enough of the basics from the Thief (Free Agent) to field a good-sized team, and makes for an interesting feature where everyone in the team has Espionage: Professional Thief as one of their skill programs.

How many can get that program (minus the Thief's +12% boost) while combining an exclusive martial art with gizmoteering skills?

Well let's see: Wired Agent, Gadgeteer Agent, Operative Agent, Wandering Free Agent. So that would be four that allow for Professional Thief program, at least one Gizmoteer Program, and a Martial Art form that goes beyond the four basic HtH options all in one character.

Since a more specialized and developed MA isn't a requirement of the Thief (Free Agent) (and fairly costly given it requires 4 secondary skills to acquire one of the 4 that are available) other OCC that can fit the Professional Thief program plus at least one Gizmoteer Program are: Cyber Agent, Private Eye, Professional Free Agent, Gizoid Gizmoteer, Tinker Gizmoteer. So there are 5 more possible leaving a total of 9 OCC that while not getting the contacts or bonus to the Professional Thief program can all be considered thieves with suitable builds. Some of these having a measure of flexibility with varied choices (particularly those with limited access to just one Gizmoteer program when four are available in the selection process for a Thief, making all of them only possible for a Tinker Gizmoteer and the Gizoid Gizmoteer).

[Regularguy]

How many can get that program (minus the Thief's +12% boost) while combining an exclusive martial art with gizmoteering skills?

Well let's see: Wired Agent, Gadgeteer Agent, Operative Agent, Wandering Free Agent. So that would be four that allow for Professional Thief program, at least one Gizmoteer Program, and a Martial Art form that goes beyond the four basic HtH options all in one character.

Huh. I'd asked how many can get the program -- minus the Thief's +12% boost, of course -- while combining an exclusive martial art with gizmoteering skills; you listed four who can't take an exclusive art.

I'll rephrase: how many can get the program in question -- minus the Thief's +12% boost -- while combining Aikido with gizmoteering skills?

[Nightmask]

How many can get that program (minus the Thief's +12% boost) while combining an exclusive martial art with gizmoteering skills?

Well let's see: Wired Agent, Gadgeteer Agent, Operative Agent, Wandering Free Agent. So that would be four that allow for Professional Thief program, at least one Gizmoteer Program, and a Martial Art form that goes beyond the four basic HtH options all in one character.

Huh. I'd asked how many can get the program -- minus the Thief's +12% boost, of course -- while combining an exclusive martial art with gizmoteering skills; you listed four who can't take an exclusive art.

I'll rephrase: how many can get the program in question -- minus the Thief's +12% boost -- while combining Aikido with gizmoteering skills?

Hadn't realized that the Thief (Free Agent) had any exclusive forms available to it (of which Aikido is the only one), and few OCC make exclusives available at all. Given it's a completely defensive MA it doesn't seem like a good choice but if you HAD to have it only the Thief (Free Agent) makes Aikido available to a non-dedicated MA let alone allows for both Professional Thief Skills and a Gizmoteer Program.

[Regularguy]

Given it's a completely defensive MA it doesn't seem like a good choice but if you HAD to have it only the Thief (Free Agent) makes Aikido available to a non-dedicated MA let alone allows for both Professional Thief Skills and a Gizmoteer Program.

Right. Like I'd said before, a Thief (Free Agent) is a better choice if you want to pair Tae Kwon Do or Moo Gi Gong or Jujutsu with being a better pickpocket and a better forger, and a better locksmith in general and a better safecracker in particular, and better at escape artistry if captured and better at palming and concealment to keep from getting caught in the first place, and so on -- but it's a better better choice if you want Aikido.

That said, I think "completely defensive martial art" is a little misleading. I mean, sure, it works just fine if you only ever want to use zenjoriki and chi mastery to excel at breaking and entering outside of combat while following up automatic locks with knife-hand knockouts or countering attacks with automatic flip/throws or whatever. But if you want to start a fight, you can use Open Hand Atemi to deafen someone while attacking straight to hit points -- stunning him first if you want, to make sure he can't fight back -- or you can use One Finger Chi to launch a can't-be-parried-or-dodged strike -- or whatever. It's a nifty little art.

[Nightmask]

Given it's a completely defensive MA it doesn't seem like a good choice but if you HAD to have it only the Thief (Free Agent) makes Aikido available to a non-dedicated MA let alone allows for both Professional Thief Skills and a Gizmoteer Program.

Right. Like I'd said before, a Thief (Free Agent) is a better choice if you want to pair Tae Kwon Do or Moo Gi Gong or Jujutsu with being a better pickpocket and a better forger, and a better locksmith in general and a better safecracker in particular, and better at escape artistry if captured and better at palming and concealment to keep from getting caught in the first place, and so on -- but it's a better better choice if you want Aikido.

That said, I think "completely defensive martial art" is a little misleading. I mean, sure, it works just fine if you only ever want to use zenjoriki and chi mastery to excel at breaking and entering outside of combat while following up automatic locks with knife-hand knockouts or countering attacks with automatic flip/throws or whatever. But if you want to start a fight, you can use Open Hand Atemi to deafen someone while attacking straight to hit points -- stunning him first if you want, to make sure he can't fight back -- or you can use One Finger Chi to launch a can't-be-parried-or-dodged strike -- or whatever. It's a nifty little art.

That's debatable about how Thief (Free Agent) is a better choice. The Operative Agent can have Tae Kwon Do without spending 4 secondary skills, enjoy Bodyguard/Assassin as another Espionage skill to add to his Professional Thief (and overlaps some skills with the Thief only better), Locksmith and Security Systems Gizmoteer to deal with all security systems and safes, and top it off with Explosives Construction when it comes to dealing with those really tough safes (provided he's wasting time with safes rather than stealing information and breaking in to make use of his Computer Hacking in place of Explosives Construction to steal multi-million dollar industrial espionage secrets).

Aikido certainly isn't the 'perfect MA' either, they all have strengths and weaknesses. For your example the Operative Agent could just as easily take Ch'in Na to quickly cripple or paralyze threats he encounters rather than making use of Aikido, not that hard to lure someone into melee range when you're likely dealing with them inside a building. Plus there's always 'guns are a great equalizer', as are flash/bang grenades.

[Regularguy]

That's debatable about how Thief (Free Agent) is a better choice. The Operative Agent can have Tae Kwon Do without spending 4 secondary skills, enjoy Bodyguard/Assassin as another Espionage skill to add to his Professional Thief (and overlaps some skills with the Thief only better)

I don't see that Bodyguard/Assassin "overlaps some skills with the Thief only better". It overlaps Escape Artist, but makes it no better; overlaps Surveillance Systems, but makes it no better; and otherwise doesn't overlap Forgery or Pick Pockets or Safe-Cracker and so on.

Locksmith and Security Systems Gizmoteer to deal with all security systems and safes, and top it off with Explosives Construction when it comes to dealing with those really tough safes (provided he's wasting time with safes rather than stealing information and breaking in to make use of his Computer Hacking in place of Explosives Construction to steal multi-million dollar industrial espionage secrets).

Just as the Thief can take Locksmith and Security Systems Gizmoteer, and top it off with Explosives Construction, provided he's likewise wasting time with safes rather than making use of his Computer Hacking in place of Explosives Construction. Of course, the Thief would still be a better Locksmith and Pickpocket and Forger and Escape Artist regardless, better with high-tech Surveillance Systems and better at low-tech Palming, and so on.

Aikido certainly isn't the 'perfect MA' either, they all have strengths and weaknesses. For your example the Operative Agent could just as easily take Ch'in Na to quickly cripple or paralyze threats he encounters rather than making use of Aikido

In which case you lose Aikido's access to Karumi-Jutsu zenjoriki, which helps a cat burglar draw on 100% climbing skill during a heist, and lets him leap 10x his usual distance, and means he can make a perfect getaway by just stepping off the skyscraper to safely fall a quarter of a mile to the street below -- plus the aikidoist is a chi master who can perform feats of super-strength to rip a safe out of the wall or boost his speed when running away or whatever. They both have advantages and drawbacks.

[Nightmask]

That's debatable about how Thief (Free Agent) is a better choice. The Operative Agent can have Tae Kwon Do without spending 4 secondary skills, enjoy Bodyguard/Assassin as another Espionage skill to add to his Professional Thief (and overlaps some skills with the Thief only better)

I don't see that Bodyguard/Assassin "overlaps some skills with the Thief only better". It overlaps Escape Artist, but makes it no better; overlaps Surveillance Systems, but makes it no better; and otherwise doesn't overlap Forgery or Pick Pockets or Safe-Cracker and so on.

I gather you're kind of missing the usefulness of things like Detect Ambush and Detect Concealment and the cover identity available to the Bodyguard/Assassin that the Professional Thief is the one Espionage program that doesn't come with any. The character can infiltrate a location to attempt to steal something by using their Cover ID to just walk in the front door which is much easier than having to try and bypass dozens of security measures breaking in and out.

Locksmith and Security Systems Gizmoteer to deal with all security systems and safes, and top it off with Explosives Construction when it comes to dealing with those really tough safes (provided he's wasting time with safes rather than stealing information and breaking in to make use of his Computer Hacking in place of Explosives Construction to steal multi-million dollar industrial espionage secrets).

Just as the Thief can take Locksmith and Security Systems Gizmoteer, and top it off with Explosives Construction, provided he's likewise wasting time with safes rather than making use of his Computer Hacking in place of Explosives Construction. Of course, the Thief would still be a better Locksmith and Pickpocket and Forger and Escape Artist regardless, better with high-tech Surveillance Systems and better at low-tech Palming, and so on.

Seem to be a bit overly focused on the skill percentages, there's more to it than just what your percentages are. I point out the Gizmoteer Programs because as I was noting the Operative Agent can cover two Gizmoteer programs from the four available to a Thief so the Thief isn't so special in that regard and leaves only one option available for that last skill program. Meanwhile the Operative Agent will have access to two skill programs to round things out and back up their thiefly goals. That Thief (Free Agent) might be getting an extra +12% on his Professional Thief program skills but that's it. In the Operative Agent example when he and the Thief pick up Military: Basic Military the OA is getting Military (Helicopters) as well.

Aikido certainly isn't the 'perfect MA' either, they all have strengths and weaknesses. For your example the Operative Agent could just as easily take Ch'in Na to quickly cripple or paralyze threats he encounters rather than making use of Aikido

In which case you lose Aikido's access to Karumi-Jutsu zenjoriki, which helps a cat burglar draw on 100% climbing skill during a heist, and lets him leap 10x his usual distance, and means he can make a perfect getaway by just stepping off the skyscraper to safely fall a quarter of a mile to the street below -- plus the aikidoist is a chi master who can perform feats of super-strength to rip a safe out of the wall or boost his speed when running away or whatever. They both have advantages and drawbacks.

Not that impressive, and one could always take Tai-Chi and have karumi-Jutsu and all Positive Chi skills to rip open the safes and self-heal. Not that it's a good thief ripping open safes in insanely obvious acts of theft more suited to a smash-and-grab artist than a professional.

[Regularguy]

I don't see that Bodyguard/Assassin "overlaps some skills with the Thief only better". It overlaps Escape Artist, but makes it no better; overlaps Surveillance Systems, but makes it no better; and otherwise doesn't overlap Forgery or Pick Pockets or Safe-Cracker and so on.

I gather you're kind of missing the usefulness of things like Detect Ambush and Detect Concealment and the cover identity available to the Bodyguard/Assassin

Gather nothing of the sort. I was simply and only replying to your statement -- the one I helpfully quoted right there in your copy-and-paste, at that -- where you falsely stated that the Operative can "enjoy Bodyguard/Assassin as another Espionage skill to add to his Professional Thief (and overlaps some skills with the Thief only better)". You're now talking about the skills it doesn't overlap, which is an entirely separate discussion I sure wouldn't mind getting around to -- but so long as you were merely talking about how it "overlaps some skills with the Thief only better", I limited myself to correcting that statement, is all.

Seem to be a bit overly focused on the skill percentages, there's more to it than just what your percentages are. I point out the Gizmoteer Programs because as I was noting the Operative Agent can cover two Gizmoteer programs from the four available to a Thief so the Thief isn't so special in that regard and leaves only one option available for that last skill program. Meanwhile the Operative Agent will have access to two skill programs to round things out and back up their thiefly goals. That Thief (Free Agent) might be getting an extra +12% on his Professional Thief program skills but that's it. In the Operative Agent example when he and the Thief pick up Military: Basic Military the OA is getting Military (Helicopters) as well.

Right. If someone comes to me and says "I want to build the best forger," I'd say "Go with the Thief (Free Agent)." If another guy says "I want the highest Pick Pockets percentage," I'd say "Go with the Thief (Free Agent)." If another other guy says "I want the highest Locksmith and Safecracker skills," I'd say "Go with the Thief (Free Agent)." And if someone else says "I don't care about being especially good at Forgery and Picking Pockets and playing Locksmith in general and Safecracker in particular, but would sure like Military: Helicopters on top of Military: Basic," then I'd of course say "Oh, well, then, go with the Operative." We're in violent agreement.

one could always take Tai-Chi and have karumi-Jutsu and all Positive Chi skills to rip open the safes and self-heal.

And lose atemi. Again, we're in violent agreement: if someone comes to me and says "I want zenjoriki and chi mastery, and don't care whether I get atemi," then I'll of course say "you can take Tai Chi or Aikido, as you see fit."

Not that it's a good thief ripping open safes in insanely obvious acts of theft more suited to a smash-and-grab artist than a professional.

Says the guy advocating the use of "Explosives Construction when it comes to dealing with those really tough safes".