Has anyone come up with good rules for running away?

[Specter]

In games like Nightbane there are often times when you are being tracked by hounds, out numbered and you need to run. I want to make the whole running experience as fun and intense as combat. Not just speed but leaping over fences, climbing fire escapes, jumping the gaps between buildings... a major problem is when ever I plan out a good run... the players never run. Even when outnumbered and out classed they will stay and fight. Is it wrong to throw too many Hounds at a group than they can possibly deal with? It's supposed to be horror survival...

[Cinos]

I have basic rules for running, D20 + half Spd if you're trying to do something and move, D20 + SPD if you're just truckin', and D20 + Double SPD if you're at an exhausting sprint. The jumping over fences and what not I do on the fly.

And no, there is no shame in throwing hound after hound at players, just make sure to leave a running place. I don't even recall my players ever wanting to deal with hounds, they saw like three and would be bolting.

[Severus Snape]

If you throw something at the players that should make them run and they don't, let them fight it out. I will give a warning to the players that fighting it out may not work, but some times they just want to try. Let them. If they die, they die. Remember that GMs don't kill players - players kill players. (Thanks NMI for that gem.)

If you throw a bunch of stuff that really outnumbers the players and they will die if they don't run but don't want to run, then so be it. Maybe they'll get lucky. Maybe they won't. Hopefully, if they do die, their next characters won't be so stupid.

[Noon]

Is it wrong to throw too many Hounds at a group than they can possibly deal with? It's supposed to be horror survival...

Kind of, as in your trying to predetermine the result. But if your intentions are to decide the important stuff instead of the players doing that, then cool (well, I hope the players know that as well - if they do, lots of people play that way).

If you tacked on some XP reward for successfully getting away, they might run more often.

I mean, running away is losing. Who wants to decide to lose? No one! So if you tack some XP on it, then it becomes a decision to succeed at escape or succeed at battle.

[Damian Magecraft]

Is it wrong to throw too many Hounds at a group than they can possibly deal with? It's supposed to be horror survival...

Kind of, as in your trying to predetermine the result. But if your intentions are to decide the important stuff instead of the players doing that, then cool (well, I hope the players know that as well - if they do, lots of people play that way).

If you tacked on some XP reward for successfully getting away, they might run more often.

I mean, running away is losing. Who wants to decide to lose? No one! So if you tack some XP on it, then it becomes a decision to succeed at escape or succeed at battle.

He who runs away lives to fight another day.
Running away is not losing.
Its choosing to not fight a losing battle.
My characters always fight in a place, time, and manner of their choosing not the enemies.
(Its simple tactics.)

[Noon]

Is it wrong to throw too many Hounds at a group than they can possibly deal with? It's supposed to be horror survival...

Kind of, as in your trying to predetermine the result. But if your intentions are to decide the important stuff instead of the players doing that, then cool (well, I hope the players know that as well - if they do, lots of people play that way).

If you tacked on some XP reward for successfully getting away, they might run more often.

I mean, running away is losing. Who wants to decide to lose? No one! So if you tack some XP on it, then it becomes a decision to succeed at escape or succeed at battle.

He who runs away lives to fight another day.
Running away is not losing.
Its choosing to not fight a losing battle.
My characters always fight in a place, time, and manner of their choosing not the enemies.
(Its simple tactics.)

It's too easy to always say that. No matter how much ground is given. No matter how many eyes cease blinking.

If your metric for losing is set in some emperical stone and it's somewhere different to this, cool. But much like in real life, without a hard metric, when someone feels that they are near the goal posts for losing - they often simply shift the goal posts. Why admit you've lost when you don't have to? Nothing in the universe can compel you to? So if you leave the terms of losing ambiguous - why not game that ambiguity and say you didn't lose? Simple tactics, really? If the goal posts are shiftable, it makes sense to shift them, obviously.

All the same, where each man draws the line is different. It's just a question of whether your redrawing it over and over so as to kid yourself you never crossed it. Some kinda philosophy of war.

EDIT: Actually you might have been thinking I was asserting some universal standard - ie, as if running away is always losing. No, to me it just sounds like the OP's group thinks running away is losing, so I was speaking within that framework. Seems that way. But equally running away not being losing isn't a universal standard either.

[mrloucifer]

Nightbane is a "War in the Shadows" themed game and by default is made for strategic withdrawals.

The first twenty pages or so of the "Nightbane survival guide" is all about how to fight a war in the shadows, and running away from overwhelming odds is one of them. In fact, page 19 has a section titled "The secret to a successful escape"; running/escaping is not only encouraged, its essential. The book clearly states that the Nightbane are are at a disadvantage in nearly all aspects. The Nightlords have set their forces to deal with spotted Nightbane quickly and an in superior numbers. Sticking around to pick fights with overwhelming odds is asking for a serious trouble.

I concur with the former responses, if they want a fight so bad... let them have it. But let them have BOTH barrels when you do. Superior numbers will come right away, and reinforcements will follow behind them quickly. Between the patrolling Nightlord armies and the local Hollow Men law enforcement ranks in the area, it should be logistically impossible for the players to fight them all and survive.

If/when one or more of them dies, the others should get the message and flee for their lives. And when they do, give them a window of opportunity, and THEN perform the running exercises you set up for them (which coincidental are always fun to put the players through, especially if you're a fan of the "Mirror's Edge" video game). if they gripe about getting their butts handed to them. pull out the Nightbane Survival guide and point out the basics of surviving a guerrilla war/ shadow war and that they blatantly disregarded one of the primary rules of survival.

Small victories and escaping to win a small victory another day is the theme and fun of this game... If your players don't like this, it may be high time to go to a game that's more about combativeness, like Rifts, Heroes Unlimited or Ninja's & Superspies.

[mrloucifer]

An alternative idea to getting your players into a running situation is to create an "info delivery run" adventure.

-The players meet up with a faction who been virtually decimated and needs the PC's help by hand delivering an important message to another faction. This info is critical to the success of a mission the other faction is performing as they speak. If the message doesn't get delivered, it will most likely cause the destruction of the faction, and every Nightbane lost is the Nightlord's gain.

-The catch is that the players have to move NOW (bypassing the opportunity for prep time and creating urgency). And of course as the faction the PC"s are helping was nearly decimated a few hours earlier, the area is being patrolled heavier than usual by the Nightlord armies. The faction leader handing over the intel should encourage them to stick to the rooftops (or however your wanting them to run to get your actions in).

-The team should be swept upon pretty quickly... if they try to go by car, the car gets ruined quickly by swooping hounds, etc. Point being, get it to where they HAVE to run the mile stretch to their goal with the baddies in pursuit.

I've run this one in a few different ways (including at gaming conventions) and they've all gone well and the players seem to enjoy the visuals racing through an urban jungle creates.

[Damian Magecraft]

Is it wrong to throw too many Hounds at a group than they can possibly deal with? It's supposed to be horror survival...

Kind of, as in your trying to predetermine the result. But if your intentions are to decide the important stuff instead of the players doing that, then cool (well, I hope the players know that as well - if they do, lots of people play that way).

If you tacked on some XP reward for successfully getting away, they might run more often.

I mean, running away is losing. Who wants to decide to lose? No one! So if you tack some XP on it, then it becomes a decision to succeed at escape or succeed at battle.

He who runs away lives to fight another day.
Running away is not losing.
Its choosing to not fight a losing battle.
My characters always fight in a place, time, and manner of their choosing not the enemies.
(Its simple tactics.)

It's too easy to always say that. No matter how much ground is given. No matter how many eyes cease blinking.

If your metric for losing is set in some emperical stone and it's somewhere different to this, cool. But much like in real life, without a hard metric, when someone feels that they are near the goal posts for losing - they often simply shift the goal posts. Why admit you've lost when you don't have to? Nothing in the universe can compel you to? So if you leave the terms of losing ambiguous - why not game that ambiguity and say you didn't lose? Simple tactics, really? If the goal posts are shiftable, it makes sense to shift them, obviously.

All the same, where each man draws the line is different. It's just a question of whether your redrawing it over and over so as to kid yourself you never crossed it. Some kinda philosophy of war.

EDIT: Actually you might have been thinking I was asserting some universal standard - ie, as if running away is always losing. No, to me it just sounds like the OP's group thinks running away is losing, so I was speaking within that framework. Seems that way. But equally running away not being losing isn't a universal standard either.

Any tactician will tell you the moment you fight on someone elses terms your odds of winning significantly decrease.
You should never engage in battle until the outcome is favorable to you.
So yes I do have an immovable metric for winning.
Especially when the outcome for loss results in death.
Any thing that avoids the loss parameter (death) is a win.
If a win cannot be a near certainty then battle should not be engaged.

[t0m]

i have done it in my pfrpg game where the story/previous events lead the players into un-winnable situations. you can ease them into understanding this by starting out in a really hard fight where they are grossly outnumbered, and if they stay and fight, and win, reinforcements show up ('as you defeat the last hound, you can hear the sound of more approaching, and see multitudes of glowing eyes approaching from the north'). in my experience, foreshadowing is the key to creating this feeling (they could hear the hounds howling all night/game session, there has been lots of military activity in the area, mysterious folks have shown up asking about the players recently etc) if it was a tough fight in the first place, they will probably be hurt, out of ammo/spells/healing etc and realize its time to go.

during the chase, physical prowess checks are required to hurdle fences, duck under branches, leap across things etc. if a character falls, give the next person in line (roll initiative, or keep whatever the order from the battle was) a chance to pick them up without slowing down too much (prowess or strength check again). if too many people fall/fail checks or slow down for some reason, maybe have an enemy or two catch up to them and have a quick little battle, or have to exit combat (dodge is an excellent way to exit melee as you can cover a lot of ground with it. this also leaves lots of opportunity for player heroics 'you go, ill try to fight them off/distract them with this last ditch tactic') and start running again before the horde catches them.

award xp for leaps/rescues/exiting combat and anything else they do..in this case, the 'battle' is the escape, since the actual combat would be impossible to win...so it makes perfect sense to give equivalent xp for it. the horde is like a wall crushing down on them. as gm you have to try to keep it right at their heels but just out of range. the slightest mistake could leave them surrounded, but give them a fighting chance (like there is only one enemy close enough, but in two turns, 5 more will show up, if they get stuck in that fight, more and more will eventually catch up etc. try to give them enough room that they can make a few mistakes, but know that they are on a very fine line between escape and the point of no return). the hardest part is trying to make it fit the story without feeling railroaded or forced. they walked into a den of monsters without scouting, they made a very powerful enemy and he finally caught them in a trap, as long as it has something to directly tie it to them/their actions (or lack of actions/foresight).

one more key element is the escape itself. sure they are running/jumping/dodging/etc, but how does it end? there has to be something to drive off the horde at the end...this depends on the setting and the horde itself. maybe the sun comes up and drives them off, maybe there is a safe haven like a military base near by, or a friendly/neutral fortification that will take them in at the last second, or a vehicle waiting to scoop them up, holy ground etc. in a city setting it could just come down to the players outsmarting the enemy too. maybe they know the area really well and can take a few twists and turns and actually lose the enemy long enough to find that escape (skills like streetwise, land nav etc come in handy here, or iq checks). make sure everyone can have a chance to 'solve' the situation somehow using their own skill set/abilities/imagination and they will feel engaged and hopefully all have a good game session.

[mrloucifer]

one more key element is the escape itself. sure they are running/jumping/dodging/etc, but how does it end?

Excellent point.

In my case, one of my players had the "Doorway" talent, and wanted to use it to make an escape. The trick however with doorway was that you need one melee round of concentration to perform this talent. So what had happened was this intense moment where the group was roof jumping and kicked in a doorway to head into a building. The caster needed to find a place to concentrate while the others tried to hold back the many chasing hounds and hunters.

One melee round of concentration can take a long longer than one realizes, the caster almost made the first attempt before a bad roll on my part meant a hunter noticed the caster through a window of the room he was concentrating in and dive after him. So the caster had to fend off and destroy the hunter on his own (the others were fending off a larger hoard down the hall), which took longer than expected (poor dice roles can come at the most inopportune moments sometimes) and finally was able to get his melee round of concentration it to open the doorway and flee with his friends. Two of the three friends nearly bought the farm trying to buy him time, they were both down to hit points (one of them lost a leg due to a critical hit with a Darkblade Spear) and were suffering a lot of penalties. The healthiest Bane had to carry the one who lost his leg while the third one made a desperate area affect "Darksong" cry (at the risk of affecting her friends and using the last of her PPE) that works like a charm and limped behind the other two to the room where the doorway awaited, allowing them all the escape. Its a war story that they still recall fondly to this day.

[t0m]

Its a war story that they still recall fondly to this day.

it sounds like an epic session my players have some stories like that too...i find the most memorable stories come from the bad times (barely escape town as the dragon burns it down looking for them) instead of the good ones (where they slay the dragon and go home with the prize).

[drewkitty ~..~]

My 2 cents.

When running away the NB/NS need to get out of sight of their pursuers long enough to change back to their facade w/o the pursuers getting a look @ their facade. And then get away from the end of their SN psychic trail so the pursuers can't associate 'that human over there' with the NB/NS they were perusing.

[The Dark Elf]

I have developed some rules for conducting several running races but alas these are submitted as part of a manuscript so I would not post them. Maybe if you and I are lucky it'll get published.

[Dunia]

Is it wrong to throw too many Hounds at a group than they can possibly deal with? It's supposed to be horror survival...

Kind of, as in your trying to predetermine the result. But if your intentions are to decide the important stuff instead of the players doing that, then cool (well, I hope the players know that as well - if they do, lots of people play that way).

If you tacked on some XP reward for successfully getting away, they might run more often.

I mean, running away is losing. Who wants to decide to lose? No one! So if you tack some XP on it, then it becomes a decision to succeed at escape or succeed at battle.

What kind of way is that to think?

I have been GM:ing for like 12+ years in various RPGs and sometimes I have thrown in a boss that is too hard to fight, but I have always been trying to hint to my players what the enemy might be too much of a thing to bite at.
Some time it is fun to see the player run away from a powerful foe just to have them think and prepare how to fight it at a later stage. I remember when I used to play Middle Earth Role Playing Game (Merp/Tolkien) and I had a drake (lesser dragon) ravage a village not that far away from the player home village and of course, as soon as the players found out what had happened (from refugees) they went up there to see if they could fight the drake, only to realize that this drake was way too hard for them. So instead of fighting, they retreated and about 50+ adventures later, (and a few levels) they decided that ''now it is eough, that overgrown lizard needs to die'' so they started to prepare with poisons, the herbalist gathered healing herbs, the scholar began studying old texts about drakes and dragons. And they spent about 20-25 sessions gathering knowledge, allies and resources to fight it.
When they finaly fought it and after an epic battle, they killed it, with one of the PCs dead and two were really hurt, the other three were able to carry their friends back, they told me afterwards that not only was the fight epic, but also they felt such a wonderful thing that they had been able to be able to prepare everything from scratch and taken all this time to do so.

Running away is not losing, running away is making a decision to survive and that is a way of either winning (you survive) and/or being able to fight it later at a place and time of your choice and hence you getting the upper hand (as in my example above).

But maybe I am just being realistical and as a GM I do not pamper my players and always make them survive and win. Some times they will face a much harder foe other times they will meet a level 1 foe that has no chance against them, and other times they will face opposition that is an even match. This way as I see it, the players cant really just say ''lets fight it'' they are always on the edge. Of corse, you must be a good GMand paint all the enemies as you want them when you describe them.
As another example, in RIFTS some adventures ago, while my players were defnding a small village out in the middle of nowhere, one of the players were attacked by a humanoid who grappled her from behind and stuck its fangs into her throat, and when the player fought it of, the player saw a pale human man, dressed in black clothes with vampire fangs and red eyes. And immediatly the whole group understood that this was Vampire and became quite afraid how their low level characters would deal with it.
And after tracking it (during the day) they found it and as they were staking it, the stake went into the body and blood spluttered everywhere and the vampire woke up with a scream. and he continued to bleed. Afterwards (as they manageed to save his life) they realized that this was a crazy with night-time complex (he belives that his powers are only active at night) and he had a multiple personality that was a vampire. Otherwise he was just an architecht from a nearby city who had gotten the MOM implants
So I had the whole group of experienced players thinking that they faced a real vampire when they were just facing a poor mentaly instale Crazy Everything is just how you describe it to the players, and if they flee, it can get a whole new mini-campaign going in how they want to fight/warn others about the threat.

So running away is never losing. It is just losing if you decide that t is.

I mean the Soviet/Russian Forces fought and won against the Swedish forces by running away when we invaded Russia, the same when Napoleon tried to invade and then the germans...Still Russia ddi not lose those three wars, even if they ran away from battle.

I think its just a bad mindset.

[Severus Snape]

Rules for Running Away
1. Wear good shoes.
2. Make sure you are in good shape.
3. Run faster than the slowest member of your party. You don't need to outrun the monster, only your buddies.
4. If all else fails, teleport is a wonderful spell to have memorized.



Seriously...

Why do people think that running away is losing? Retreat should always be an option for the PCs. Heck - as a GM I've used it for the NPCs and monsters. If the players can run away from a really tough opponent, then so can the monsters. They aren't stupid, you know. Except for maybe slimes, jellies, and the occassional kobold that gets lost.

Retreat isn't losing. It's the better part of valor, after all. PCs should know when they are seriously out-manned or out-gunned, and they should have the smarts to say "You know, I think we're screwed here. We might want to retreat and come back better prepared." That's just good role-playing. To say that running away is losing is to say that you just want to kill your players.

[Blindscout]

I mean, running away is losing. Who wants to decide to lose? No one! So if you tack some XP on it, then it becomes a decision to succeed at escape or succeed at battle.

What kind of way is that to think?

I have been GM:ing for like 12+ years in various RPGs and sometimes I have thrown in a boss that is too hard to fight, but I have always been trying to hint to my players what the enemy might be too much of a thing to bite at.
Some time it is fun to see the player run away from a powerful foe just to have them think and prepare how to fight it at a later stage. I remember when I used to play Middle Earth Role Playing Game (Merp/Tolkien) and I had a drake (lesser dragon) ravage a village not that far away from the player home village and of course, as soon as the players found out what had happened (from refugees) they went up there to see if they could fight the drake, only to realize that this drake was way too hard for them. So instead of fighting, they retreated and about 50+ adventures later, (and a few levels) they decided that ''now it is eough, that overgrown lizard needs to die'' so they started to prepare with poisons, the herbalist gathered healing herbs, the scholar began studying old texts about drakes and dragons. And they spent about 20-25 sessions gathering knowledge, allies and resources to fight it.
When they finaly fought it and after an epic battle, they killed it, with one of the PCs dead and two were really hurt, the other three were able to carry their friends back, they told me afterwards that not only was the fight epic, but also they felt such a wonderful thing that they had been able to be able to prepare everything from scratch and taken all this time to do so.

Running away is not losing, running away is making a decision to survive and that is a way of either winning (you survive) and/or being able to fight it later at a place and time of your choice and hence you getting the upper hand (as in my example above).

But maybe I am just being realistical and as a GM I do not pamper my players and always make them survive and win. Some times they will face a much harder foe other times they will meet a level 1 foe that has no chance against them, and other times they will face opposition that is an even match. This way as I see it, the players cant really just say ''lets fight it'' they are always on the edge. Of corse, you must be a good GMand paint all the enemies as you want them when you describe them.
As another example, in RIFTS some adventures ago, while my players were defnding a small village out in the middle of nowhere, one of the players were attacked by a humanoid who grappled her from behind and stuck its fangs into her throat, and when the player fought it of, the player saw a pale human man, dressed in black clothes with vampire fangs and red eyes. And immediatly the whole group understood that this was Vampire and became quite afraid how their low level characters would deal with it.
And after tracking it (during the day) they found it and as they were staking it, the stake went into the body and blood spluttered everywhere and the vampire woke up with a scream. and he continued to bleed. Afterwards (as they manageed to save his life) they realized that this was a crazy with night-time complex (he belives that his powers are only active at night) and he had a multiple personality that was a vampire. Otherwise he was just an architecht from a nearby city who had gotten the MOM implants
So I had the whole group of experienced players thinking that they faced a real vampire when they were just facing a poor mentaly instale Crazy Everything is just how you describe it to the players, and if they flee, it can get a whole new mini-campaign going in how they want to fight/warn others about the threat.

So running away is never losing. It is just losing if you decide that t is.

I mean the Soviet/Russian Forces fought and won against the Swedish forces by running away when we invaded Russia, the same when Napoleon tried to invade and then the germans...Still Russia ddi not lose those three wars, even if they ran away from battle.

I think its just a bad mindset.

This post is so full of awesome it's hard to put into words.

[strtkwr]

In games like Nightbane there are often times when you are being tracked by hounds, out numbered and you need to run. I want to make the whole running experience as fun and intense as combat. Not just speed but leaping over fences, climbing fire escapes, jumping the gaps between buildings... a major problem is when ever I plan out a good run... the players never run. Even when outnumbered and out classed they will stay and fight. Is it wrong to throw too many Hounds at a group than they can possibly deal with? It's supposed to be horror survival...

OK, I find this humorous. I am currently running a CE campaign, right at the start of the end of the world. I gave them limited resources, and had mapped out a series of adventures that would seen to strain their resources while helping people in need, but would also allow them to replenish said resources (they did not know this of course). Instead, what they did was take a 180 on me after the first battle in a town that was being overrun by creatures from the Rifts. They decided to leave the people to their fate. (Yeah, this was a big mistake on their part, because saving the town would have gotten them some good loot) And then they bypassed a second burned out town that would have seen some welcome additions to the group of NPC's, one that would have been a big help on the adventure they are in now.

So, your players won't run away, and mine won't stay and fight. Wanna trade?