Weapon Kata question

[Nightmask]

For martial art styles that allow weapon katas can you take a kata in any weapon at all, barring modern ones of course? Could the Zanji master take up a battle axe kata for example and now use a battle axe with all the skill he's got available from his Zanji training?

[JuliusCreed]

For martial art styles that allow weapon katas can you take a kata in any weapon at all, barring modern ones of course? Could the Zanji master take up a battle axe kata for example and now use a battle axe with all the skill he's got available from his Zanji training?

Any Martial Art form that allows Weapon Katas to be selected from the Special Katas section can take any of the available Ancient WP's as a Weapon Kata;

Weapon Kata or Kobu-Jutsu: This simply allows the character to use a particular weapon with any martial art form...(snip) Its good for one WP and one martial art form only! Taking this kata automatically gives the character full WP with the weapon named.

After the above quote it goes on to state the possibility of someone with Isshin-Ryu taking WP Spear, even though the form itself only quotes having WP Staff as a starting Weapon Kata. This leads me to believe that someone taking Isshin-Ryu could just has easilly have selected WP Axe, Knife , Sword or whatever for their character, as long as a seperate Weapon Kata is taken for each weapon desired.

Short answer to your question... Yes, you can.

[Mercdog]

Another question:

In your opinions, exactly what is the relationship/difference between Weapon Katas and Weapon Proficiencies if one is using a more current version of Palladium Rules where the WP bonuses stack with Hand to Hand bonuses?

[JuliusCreed]

Another question:

In your opinions, exactly what is the relationship/difference between Weapon Katas and Weapon Proficiencies if one is using a more current version of Palladium Rules where the WP bonuses stack with Hand to Hand bonuses?

Proficiency with a weapon is the ability/training to use a weapon effectively in combat, as applies to any particular basic fighting style you may have, evidenced in the more general HtH forms of Basic, Expert and Martial Arts. They allow a character with the basic forms to use a weapon with all available bonuses from both the proficiency and the basic HtH style they have. Characters without a Weapon Proficiency in a particular weapon may still use that type of weapon, but will get no bonuses to use it in combat, except those provided by attributes.

A Weapon Kata is a specific set of moves/maneuvers for a particular specific Martial Arts form using said weapon. It is possible to have a Weapon Proficiency and a Weapon Kata, but the Weapon Proficiency could not be used with the combat bonuses of the Martial Arts form. For example, a Martial Artist has a Weapon Kata for Knives with his Martial Art form and a Weapon Proficeincy with Swords, probably picked up as an additional skill. While armed with a Knife he can combine the combat bonuses of the Knife Kata (effectively the WP bonuses) with his combat bonuses provided by his Martial Art and any applicable attribute bonuses. But, if during the fight he switches to using a Sword, he would only get the bonuses provided by the Weapon Proficiency and any possible attribute bonuses.

The main concept for the difference between Weapon Katas and Weapon Proficiencies is to allow a Martial Artist (a fighter with a specific form, not just HtH Martial Arts) to be able to integrate weapons training into their fighting form without giving them an overly huge number of weapon proficiencies they could chooses from to use in a fight, essentially in an attempt to emphasize most Martial Arts preferance of empty hand techniques and/or the specialized training needed to integrate the use of a weapon into the movements of their form. A few exceptions to this would be forms such as Zanji-Shinjinken Ryu, Gui Long Kung Fu, Shi Ba Bahn Wu Yi and Triad Assassin Training, all of which not only encourage the use of weapons, but pretty much require it by giving the character a good sized selection of Weapon Katas to start. with/choose from.

[Nightmask]

Another question:

In your opinions, exactly what is the relationship/difference between Weapon Katas and Weapon Proficiencies if one is using a more current version of Palladium Rules where the WP bonuses stack with Hand to Hand bonuses?

Proficiency with a weapon is the ability/training to use a weapon effectively in combat, as applies to any particular basic fighting style you may have, evidenced in the more general HtH forms of Basic, Expert and Martial Arts. They allow a character with the basic forms to use a weapon with all available bonuses from both the proficiency and the basic HtH style they have. Characters without a Weapon Proficiency in a particular weapon may still use that type of weapon, but will get no bonuses to use it in combat, except those provided by attributes.

A Weapon Kata is a specific set of moves/maneuvers for a particular specific Martial Arts form using said weapon. It is possible to have a Weapon Proficiency and a Weapon Kata, but the Weapon Proficiency could not be used with the combat bonuses of the Martial Arts form. For example, a Martial Artist has a Weapon Kata for Knives with his Martial Art form and a Weapon Proficeincy with Swords, probably picked up as an additional skill. While armed with a Knife he can combine the combat bonuses of the Knife Kata (effectively the WP bonuses) with his combat bonuses provided by his Martial Art and any applicable attribute bonuses. But, if during the fight he switches to using a Sword, he would only get the bonuses provided by the Weapon Proficiency and any possible attribute bonuses.

The main concept for the difference between Weapon Katas and Weapon Proficiencies is to allow a Martial Artist (a fighter with a specific form, not just HtH Martial Arts) to be able to integrate weapons training into their fighting form without giving them an overly huge number of weapon proficiencies they could chooses from to use in a fight, essentially in an attempt to emphasize most Martial Arts preferance of empty hand techniques and/or the specialized training needed to integrate the use of a weapon into the movements of their form. A few exceptions to this would be forms such as Zanji-Shinjinken Ryu, Gui Long Kung Fu, Shi Ba Bahn Wu Yi and Triad Assassin Training, all of which not only encourage the use of weapons, but pretty much require it by giving the character a good sized selection of Weapon Katas to start. with/choose from.

Left off Moo Gi Gong, since it gives you literally every ancient weapon proficiency at bonus and every weapon kata with the MA. Number of attacks is low but being able to use anything with your MA combat bonuses is impressive.

[JuliusCreed]

Another question:

In your opinions, exactly what is the relationship/difference between Weapon Katas and Weapon Proficiencies if one is using a more current version of Palladium Rules where the WP bonuses stack with Hand to Hand bonuses?

Proficiency with a weapon is the ability/training to use a weapon effectively in combat, as applies to any particular basic fighting style you may have, evidenced in the more general HtH forms of Basic, Expert and Martial Arts. They allow a character with the basic forms to use a weapon with all available bonuses from both the proficiency and the basic HtH style they have. Characters without a Weapon Proficiency in a particular weapon may still use that type of weapon, but will get no bonuses to use it in combat, except those provided by attributes.

A Weapon Kata is a specific set of moves/maneuvers for a particular specific Martial Arts form using said weapon. It is possible to have a Weapon Proficiency and a Weapon Kata, but the Weapon Proficiency could not be used with the combat bonuses of the Martial Arts form. For example, a Martial Artist has a Weapon Kata for Knives with his Martial Art form and a Weapon Proficeincy with Swords, probably picked up as an additional skill. While armed with a Knife he can combine the combat bonuses of the Knife Kata (effectively the WP bonuses) with his combat bonuses provided by his Martial Art and any applicable attribute bonuses. But, if during the fight he switches to using a Sword, he would only get the bonuses provided by the Weapon Proficiency and any possible attribute bonuses.

The main concept for the difference between Weapon Katas and Weapon Proficiencies is to allow a Martial Artist (a fighter with a specific form, not just HtH Martial Arts) to be able to integrate weapons training into their fighting form without giving them an overly huge number of weapon proficiencies they could chooses from to use in a fight, essentially in an attempt to emphasize most Martial Arts preferance of empty hand techniques and/or the specialized training needed to integrate the use of a weapon into the movements of their form. A few exceptions to this would be forms such as Zanji-Shinjinken Ryu, Gui Long Kung Fu, Shi Ba Bahn Wu Yi and Triad Assassin Training, all of which not only encourage the use of weapons, but pretty much require it by giving the character a good sized selection of Weapon Katas to start. with/choose from.

Left off Moo Gi Gong, since it gives you literally every ancient weapon proficiency at bonus and every weapon kata with the MA. Number of attacks is low but being able to use anything with your MA combat bonuses is impressive.

Duly noted. And yes it is one of my personal favorites. I really like using this form in HU with a Mutant with Manipulate Kinetic Energy. The revised damage tables on thrown objects makes the guy a real killer in a department store. And ALWAYS carry your wallet; ID's, credit cards, business cards, keys, loose change.... the arsenal just keeps on growing

[Nightmask]

Left off Moo Gi Gong, since it gives you literally every ancient weapon proficiency at bonus and every weapon kata with the MA. Number of attacks is low but being able to use anything with your MA combat bonuses is impressive.

Duly noted. And yes it is one of my personal favorites. I really like using this form in HU with a Mutant with Manipulate Kinetic Energy. The revised damage tables on thrown objects makes the guy a real killer in a department store. And ALWAYS carry your wallet; ID's, credit cards, business cards, keys, loose change.... the arsenal just keeps on growing

Good to use with the minor power that lets you store weapons in a pocket dimension and summon them as needed, since you can store some fine weapons away like that and seem defenseless. Team it with Triad Assassin training and you'd be incredibly awesome on the weapon side of things.

[Mercdog]

Another question:

In your opinions, exactly what is the relationship/difference between Weapon Katas and Weapon Proficiencies if one is using a more current version of Palladium Rules where the WP bonuses stack with Hand to Hand bonuses?

Proficiency with a weapon is the ability/training to use a weapon effectively in combat, as applies to any particular basic fighting style you may have, evidenced in the more general HtH forms of Basic, Expert and Martial Arts. They allow a character with the basic forms to use a weapon with all available bonuses from both the proficiency and the basic HtH style they have. Characters without a Weapon Proficiency in a particular weapon may still use that type of weapon, but will get no bonuses to use it in combat, except those provided by attributes.

A Weapon Kata is a specific set of moves/maneuvers for a particular specific Martial Arts form using said weapon. It is possible to have a Weapon Proficiency and a Weapon Kata, but the Weapon Proficiency could not be used with the combat bonuses of the Martial Arts form. For example, a Martial Artist has a Weapon Kata for Knives with his Martial Art form and a Weapon Proficeincy with Swords, probably picked up as an additional skill. While armed with a Knife he can combine the combat bonuses of the Knife Kata (effectively the WP bonuses) with his combat bonuses provided by his Martial Art and any applicable attribute bonuses. But, if during the fight he switches to using a Sword, he would only get the bonuses provided by the Weapon Proficiency and any possible attribute bonuses.

So, let's see if I've got this straight... Essentially, two fighters of with identical bonuses, of say +1 to strike with their hand to hand/Martial arts skill, both have the Sword WP with a +2 bonus to Strike.

The agent with regular Hand to Hand skill has a +3 to strike with the sword, but the Martial Artist is only +2 to strike with the sword unless he also has Weapon Kata: Sword?

[Mantisking]

In your opinions, exactly what is the relationship/difference between Weapon Katas and Weapon Proficiencies if one is using a more current version of Palladium Rules where the WP bonuses stack with Hand to Hand bonuses?

Which version of the rules is that?

[Mercdog]

In your opinions, exactly what is the relationship/difference between Weapon Katas and Weapon Proficiencies if one is using a more current version of Palladium Rules where the WP bonuses stack with Hand to Hand bonuses?

Which version of the rules is that?

I don't have my books to check individual settings, but printed in the WP section of Dead Reign and RUE it states that WP bonuses are combined with PP, OCC, and Hand to Hand skill bonuses. So I'm just trying to nail down how that compares/differs with the Weapon Katas of N&SS.

I mean I know that a Weapon Kata basically gives you the WP in the chosen weapon, at least in the form in which it was chosen. But what if you have the WP and not the Weapon Kata? How does that function in conjunction with your martial art forms?

[JuliusCreed]

So, let's see if I've got this straight... Essentially, two fighters of with identical bonuses, of say +1 to strike with their hand to hand/Martial arts skill, both have the Sword WP with a +2 bonus to Strike.

The agent with regular Hand to Hand skill has a +3 to strike with the sword, but the Martial Artist is only +2 to strike with the sword unless he also has Weapon Kata: Sword?

The way you have it described... yes.
The Martial Artist is proficient in the use of a sword in a fight, yes. But, without the Weapon Kata for Swords with his Martial Art form, he is not as proficient in using a sword with his form because he was never trained to properly integrate the use of a sword into the moves and maneuvers of his form. If he had taken a Weapon Kata for Swords, his school would have essentially taught him how to do it. As it stands, by picking up the Weapon Proficiency for a sword, whether by being trained by an agency of some kind as an OCC related skill, or self-taught as a secondary, he cannot properly integrate the use of a sword into his fighting style, though he still has some level of mastery with it from whatever training he has received.
Also it should be noted that having a Weapon Kata for a particular weapon does NOT require you to have a Weapon Proficiency with the same weapon and vice versa. The use of a Weapon Kata simply allows you to use Weapon Proficiency bonuses stacked with form bonuses as long as you take the Weapon Kata with that form. If, by the way, you have 2 forms, seperate Weapon Katas are needed for each form. A Weapon Kata with Staves in Isshin-Ryu doesn't mean you have a Weapon Kata with Staves in Sankukai. You'll need to take it again for the other form.

[JuliusCreed]

Let me see if I can make this clear for everyone...

Fighter A
Hand to Hand Martial Arts (Agent): +1 Strike
Weapon Proficiency Sword: +1 Strike
Physical Prowess of 16: +1 Strike
Total Applicable Strike Bonus using Swords in a fight: +3

Fighter B
Tae Kwon Do Martial Art Form: +1 Strike
Weapon Proficiency Sword: +1 Strike
Physical Prowess of 16: +1 Strike
Total Applicable Strike Bonus using swords in a fight: +2

If Fighter B Had a Weapon Kata with swords with a +1 to Strike, the Form Bonus would be applied and the total bonuses between them would be equal, thus looking like this...

Fighter B
Tae Kwon Do Martial Art Form: +1 Strike
Weapon Kata Sword: +1 Strike
Physical prowess of 16: +1 Strike
Total Applicable Strike Bonus using swords in a fight: +3

Hope that clears it up well enough.

Good luck and great gaming!

[Mercdog]

Let me see if I can make this clear for everyone...

Fighter A
Hand to Hand Martial Arts (Agent): +1 Strike
Weapon Proficiency Sword: +1 Strike
Physical Prowess of 16: +1 Strike
Total Applicable Strike Bonus using Swords in a fight: +3

Fighter B
Tae Kwon Do Martial Art Form: +1 Strike
Weapon Proficiency Sword: +1 Strike
Physical Prowess of 16: +1 Strike
Total Applicable Strike Bonus using swords in a fight: +2

If Fighter B Had a Weapon Kata with swords with a +1 to Strike, the Form Bonus would be applied and the total bonuses between them would be equal, thus looking like this...

Fighter B
Tae Kwon Do Martial Art Form: +1 Strike
Weapon Kata Sword: +1 Strike
Physical prowess of 16: +1 Strike
Total Applicable Strike Bonus using swords in a fight: +3

Hope that clears it up well enough.

Good luck and great gaming!

Yep that clears it up nicely. Just wanted to be sure I fully understood the relationship between the two.

Thanks much Julius.

[Nightmask]

Ironically you picked one of the few Martial Arts (Tae Kwon Do) that explicitly denies the use of Weapon Katas with that form in your example Julius.

Also if you select a weapon kata it automatically includes the weapon proficiency to go along with it (one can hardly have the kata for using a weapon with their style without actually being proficient in the weapon's use). So while you can't have a weapon kata without the weapon proficiency you can have a weapon proficiency without a weapon kata.

[JuliusCreed]

Ironically you picked one of the few Martial Arts (Tae Kwon Do) that explicitly denies the use of Weapon Katas with that form in your example Julius.

Also if you select a weapon kata it automatically includes the weapon proficiency to go along with it (one can hardly have the kata for using a weapon with their style without actually being proficient in the weapon's use). So while you can't have a weapon kata without the weapon proficiency you can have a weapon proficiency without a weapon kata.

True enough... nice catch. But at least it got the point across. Glad to be of service!

[Nightmask]

Ironically you picked one of the few Martial Arts (Tae Kwon Do) that explicitly denies the use of Weapon Katas with that form in your example Julius.

Also if you select a weapon kata it automatically includes the weapon proficiency to go along with it (one can hardly have the kata for using a weapon with their style without actually being proficient in the weapon's use). So while you can't have a weapon kata without the weapon proficiency you can have a weapon proficiency without a weapon kata.

True enough... nice catch. But at least it got the point across. Glad to be of service!

Examples are always good to have to help explain things.

[green.nova343]

Another question:

In your opinions, exactly what is the relationship/difference between Weapon Katas and Weapon Proficiencies if one is using a more current version of Palladium Rules where the WP bonuses stack with Hand to Hand bonuses?

OK, just read through the descriptions again, as well as comparing the combat sections. And I went back & reviewed Mystic China as well.

From what I can tell, the "modern" way is also the "old" way. The reason is because of how the treatment has apparently been misinterpreted... and I include myself in that up until now.

Here is the treatment we should be using:
-- characters with no training with an ancient weapon (no W.P. skill or Weapon Kata) only use any applicable MA, attribute, and/or O.C.C. bonuses. The only benefit from using the weapon is the higher damage potential, or possibly a longer reach in combat.
-- characters with a Weapon Kata have trained in the use of that weapon specifically in conjunction with their MA form. The character gains full W.P. bonuses when using the weapon... but only with that particular MA form. That's not so restrictive for most characters, as they only have 1 MA form anyway ('generic', Agent, 'full', or otherwise); the only ones restricted are the Dedicated Martial Artists, which choose 2 (or more, depending on your edition) forms.
-- characters that select a W.P. skill can use those bonuses with any MA form they know. This grants the character the most flexibility, but uses up a skill selection. That may not seem restrictive, but the DMA and his Worldly cousin, as well as the other "true" martial artist classes, tend to not only be more restrictive in their skill selections but also restricted in the number they can select. Using those few selections for W.P. skills may give you a "combat god", but the character won't be as useful in non-combat situations.

In essence, the choice of selecting W.P. vs. Kata, as with most choices in an MA, comes down to how you want your character's flavor to turn out. It can even be used to reflect the varying focus you see between the teachers each student has, or the differences between different or rival dojos.

Now, if you really want to maximize the potential of weapon combat with an MA form, consider Shih Ba Ban Wu Yih from Mystic China. That form starts out with Weapon Katas for all 14 types of ancient weapons, plus your pick of Katas for 4 Paired Weapons combinations. It's light on unarmed combat, and very light on the mystical side (being restricted to non-Chi specialty katas), but it lets you have the maximum armed combat potential possible.

[JuliusCreed]

Another question:

In your opinions, exactly what is the relationship/difference between Weapon Katas and Weapon Proficiencies if one is using a more current version of Palladium Rules where the WP bonuses stack with Hand to Hand bonuses?

OK, just read through the descriptions again, as well as comparing the combat sections. And I went back & reviewed Mystic China as well.

From what I can tell, the "modern" way is also the "old" way. The reason is because of how the treatment has apparently been misinterpreted... and I include myself in that up until now.

Here is the treatment we should be using:
-- characters with no training with an ancient weapon (no W.P. skill or Weapon Kata) only use any applicable MA, attribute, and/or O.C.C. bonuses. The only benefit from using the weapon is the higher damage potential, or possibly a longer reach in combat.
-- characters with a Weapon Kata have trained in the use of that weapon specifically in conjunction with their MA form. The character gains full W.P. bonuses when using the weapon... but only with that particular MA form. That's not so restrictive for most characters, as they only have 1 MA form anyway ('generic', Agent, 'full', or otherwise); the only ones restricted are the Dedicated Martial Artists, which choose 2 (or more, depending on your edition) forms.
-- characters that select a W.P. skill can use those bonuses with any MA form they know. This grants the character the most flexibility, but uses up a skill selection. That may not seem restrictive, but the DMA and his Worldly cousin, as well as the other "true" martial artist classes, tend to not only be more restrictive in their skill selections but also restricted in the number they can select. Using those few selections for W.P. skills may give you a "combat god", but the character won't be as useful in non-combat situations.

In essence, the choice of selecting W.P. vs. Kata, as with most choices in an MA, comes down to how you want your character's flavor to turn out. It can even be used to reflect the varying focus you see between the teachers each student has, or the differences between different or rival dojos.

Now, if you really want to maximize the potential of weapon combat with an MA form, consider Shih Ba Ban Wu Yih from Mystic China. That form starts out with Weapon Katas for all 14 types of ancient weapons, plus your pick of Katas for 4 Paired Weapons combinations. It's light on unarmed combat, and very light on the mystical side (being restricted to non-Chi specialty katas), but it lets you have the maximum armed combat potential possible.

For the most part, yes you are correct. The only point of contention... Shih Ba Ban Wu Yi vs. Moo Gi Gong... As you mentioned Shih Ba Ban provides 14 weapon Katas plus 4 different paired katas... Moo Gi Gong provides ALL Weapon Katas, including ALL Paired forms rather than just a selection of 4 presets AND the ability to effectively use anything you happen to pick up as a weapon. Of course, Moo Gi Gong is also light on the mystic side of things, but when you can walk into a fight 'unarmed' and whip someones behind with your credit cards, the frying pan on the stove and a trash can lid I'd say it's a pretty effective form to have in comparison to the guy that HAS to have the proper weapons around or in hand to be effective.

[Regularguy]

For the most part, yes you are correct. The only point of contention... Shih Ba Ban Wu Yi vs. Moo Gi Gong... As you mentioned Shih Ba Ban provides 14 weapon Katas plus 4 different paired katas... Moo Gi Gong provides ALL Weapon Katas, including ALL Paired forms rather than just a selection of 4 presets AND the ability to effectively use anything you happen to pick up as a weapon. Of course, Moo Gi Gong is also light on the mystic side of things, but when you can walk into a fight 'unarmed' and whip someones behind with your credit cards, the frying pan on the stove and a trash can lid I'd say it's a pretty effective form to have in comparison to the guy that HAS to have the proper weapons around or in hand to be effective.

In fairness, the book that introduced Shih Ba Ban Wu Yi also includes WP Weapon Improvisation: the SBBWY guy doesn't automatically get it, but (a) he does start play with an extra weapon kata, and (b) what better kata than one that lets him wield 'any object, no matter how humble' when he wants a bonus to strike, parry, damage, entangle, or throw?

(On the other hand, the Moo Gi Gong practitioner starts play with a free martial-art technique, which means he can play One Shot sniper the way a Shih Ba Ban Wu Yi practitioner can't. So it's apples and oranges all the way down.)

[green.nova343]

Another question:

In your opinions, exactly what is the relationship/difference between Weapon Katas and Weapon Proficiencies if one is using a more current version of Palladium Rules where the WP bonuses stack with Hand to Hand bonuses?

OK, just read through the descriptions again, as well as comparing the combat sections. And I went back & reviewed Mystic China as well.

From what I can tell, the "modern" way is also the "old" way. The reason is because of how the treatment has apparently been misinterpreted... and I include myself in that up until now.

Here is the treatment we should be using:
-- characters with no training with an ancient weapon (no W.P. skill or Weapon Kata) only use any applicable MA, attribute, and/or O.C.C. bonuses. The only benefit from using the weapon is the higher damage potential, or possibly a longer reach in combat.
-- characters with a Weapon Kata have trained in the use of that weapon specifically in conjunction with their MA form. The character gains full W.P. bonuses when using the weapon... but only with that particular MA form. That's not so restrictive for most characters, as they only have 1 MA form anyway ('generic', Agent, 'full', or otherwise); the only ones restricted are the Dedicated Martial Artists, which choose 2 (or more, depending on your edition) forms.
-- characters that select a W.P. skill can use those bonuses with any MA form they know. This grants the character the most flexibility, but uses up a skill selection. That may not seem restrictive, but the DMA and his Worldly cousin, as well as the other "true" martial artist classes, tend to not only be more restrictive in their skill selections but also restricted in the number they can select. Using those few selections for W.P. skills may give you a "combat god", but the character won't be as useful in non-combat situations.

In essence, the choice of selecting W.P. vs. Kata, as with most choices in an MA, comes down to how you want your character's flavor to turn out. It can even be used to reflect the varying focus you see between the teachers each student has, or the differences between different or rival dojos.

Now, if you really want to maximize the potential of weapon combat with an MA form, consider Shih Ba Ban Wu Yih from Mystic China. That form starts out with Weapon Katas for all 14 types of ancient weapons, plus your pick of Katas for 4 Paired Weapons combinations. It's light on unarmed combat, and very light on the mystical side (being restricted to non-Chi specialty katas), but it lets you have the maximum armed combat potential possible.

For the most part, yes you are correct. The only point of contention... Shih Ba Ban Wu Yi vs. Moo Gi Gong... As you mentioned Shih Ba Ban provides 14 weapon Katas plus 4 different paired katas... Moo Gi Gong provides ALL Weapon Katas, including ALL Paired forms rather than just a selection of 4 presets AND the ability to effectively use anything you happen to pick up as a weapon. Of course, Moo Gi Gong is also light on the mystic side of things, but when you can walk into a fight 'unarmed' and whip someones behind with your credit cards, the frying pan on the stove and a trash can lid I'd say it's a pretty effective form to have in comparison to the guy that HAS to have the proper weapons around or in hand to be effective.

Ah, had forgotten about that. That would be an interesting combat session to game out...

[JuliusCreed]

Another question:

In your opinions, exactly what is the relationship/difference between Weapon Katas and Weapon Proficiencies if one is using a more current version of Palladium Rules where the WP bonuses stack with Hand to Hand bonuses?

OK, just read through the descriptions again, as well as comparing the combat sections. And I went back & reviewed Mystic China as well.

From what I can tell, the "modern" way is also the "old" way. The reason is because of how the treatment has apparently been misinterpreted... and I include myself in that up until now.

Here is the treatment we should be using:
-- characters with no training with an ancient weapon (no W.P. skill or Weapon Kata) only use any applicable MA, attribute, and/or O.C.C. bonuses. The only benefit from using the weapon is the higher damage potential, or possibly a longer reach in combat.
-- characters with a Weapon Kata have trained in the use of that weapon specifically in conjunction with their MA form. The character gains full W.P. bonuses when using the weapon... but only with that particular MA form. That's not so restrictive for most characters, as they only have 1 MA form anyway ('generic', Agent, 'full', or otherwise); the only ones restricted are the Dedicated Martial Artists, which choose 2 (or more, depending on your edition) forms.
-- characters that select a W.P. skill can use those bonuses with any MA form they know. This grants the character the most flexibility, but uses up a skill selection. That may not seem restrictive, but the DMA and his Worldly cousin, as well as the other "true" martial artist classes, tend to not only be more restrictive in their skill selections but also restricted in the number they can select. Using those few selections for W.P. skills may give you a "combat god", but the character won't be as useful in non-combat situations.

In essence, the choice of selecting W.P. vs. Kata, as with most choices in an MA, comes down to how you want your character's flavor to turn out. It can even be used to reflect the varying focus you see between the teachers each student has, or the differences between different or rival dojos.

Now, if you really want to maximize the potential of weapon combat with an MA form, consider Shih Ba Ban Wu Yih from Mystic China. That form starts out with Weapon Katas for all 14 types of ancient weapons, plus your pick of Katas for 4 Paired Weapons combinations. It's light on unarmed combat, and very light on the mystical side (being restricted to non-Chi specialty katas), but it lets you have the maximum armed combat potential possible.

For the most part, yes you are correct. The only point of contention... Shih Ba Ban Wu Yi vs. Moo Gi Gong... As you mentioned Shih Ba Ban provides 14 weapon Katas plus 4 different paired katas... Moo Gi Gong provides ALL Weapon Katas, including ALL Paired forms rather than just a selection of 4 presets AND the ability to effectively use anything you happen to pick up as a weapon. Of course, Moo Gi Gong is also light on the mystic side of things, but when you can walk into a fight 'unarmed' and whip someones behind with your credit cards, the frying pan on the stove and a trash can lid I'd say it's a pretty effective form to have in comparison to the guy that HAS to have the proper weapons around or in hand to be effective.

Ah, had forgotten about that. That would be an interesting combat session to game out...

Done it actually... interesting how it turns out really...
The basic premise in a fight for anyone that studies Moo Gi Gong is location location location. Places like malls, kitchens, restaurants, sporting goods stores or events, even a basic suburban home or garage, is a veritable arsenal of death and destruction for one of these guys. If you can deny access to places like these to a practitioner of Moo Gi Gong, then you've put a pretty good cramp in his style. However, this does not by any means indicate that he is down and out. Even walking the streets, a decent Moo Gi Gong artist can come up with a few tricks... a discarded beer bottle, trash cans, stray hubcaps, broken fences... all of this and more can be pretty effective. To truly deny the Moo Gi Gong practitioner his usual arsenal, you have to seriously isolate him. I'm talking middle of the desert or locked in an barren warehouse in his skivvies isolation. And even then there are no guarantees. That's when it comes down to how clever the player is. But, even without his usual arsenal, a Moo Gi Gong practitioner is still a pretty decent stand up fighter. There's a decent selection of moves to choose from and, while not very flashy, the defenses are pretty solid. The major drawbacks... a low starting attack base (can be somewhat countered with Boxing and experience) relatively low combat bonuses from the form itself (+3 at best) and a serious lack of MAP's (1 to start, 3 pick ups) This form is made to be either a> coupled with another form, particularly its Hwrang Do counterpart, in order to balance its weaknesses or b> used as a stand alone by a very clever guy that is rarely empty handed or found away from some form of civilization.

On the other hand, Shih Ba Ban Wu Yi... well... I can only compare what I've read and played, but personally I find the form lacking by comparison. On the plus side of things for the form... 1> 18 Weapon Proficiency styles, 14 single and 4 paired. Except for Moo Gi Gong, that's the most you can get from any single form (remember, Moo Gi Gong provides WP in ALL single AND paired WP's) 2> The only real advantage it has over Moo Gi Gong... attribute bonuses! MGG provides a +1 to PE and PP and +10 SDC... Shih Ba Ban doubles that and throws in an extra +1 to PS. 3> A slightly better starting attack base (MGG starting attacks: 2, Shih Ba Ban: 3) and overall combat bonuses provided by the form. But.... the combat style itself is almost completely weapon-centric, as reflected in the comparative lack of empty hand techniques with only the most basic of hand and foot strikes, though the defensive spectrum is still pretty solid. There is also an equivalent, if not worse lack of Martial Arts Powers. When looking them over, both forms top out at 4 MAP's, but Shih Ba Ban has the problem of being limited to just Special Katas... and not even Chi Katas!

Oh and Regularguy... you are absolutely correct... a Shih Ba Ban practitioner can very easily select a Weapon Kata in Weapon Improvisation. As you noted he doesn't start with it automatically like the Moo Gi Gong practitioner, but the skill would allow him to use any item 'no matter how humble', as a weapon. However, it should be noted that this same skill also states "... improvised weapons can only do one thing well and everything else badly." as reflected in the fact that you can only select ONE area of combat to get bonuses in with an improvised weapon. The Moo Gi Gong practitioner has no such problems... all of his combat bonuses apply to all of his weapons, improvised or otherwise. By my reckoning, Weapon Improvisation is akin to the Kick Boxing and Tai Chi Physical skills from Rifter 7. It's a cheap way to give someone a few skills from another Martial Art form without actually taking another form. And did I forget to mention the Moo Gi Gong practitioner also gets an additional +1 to Strike with ALL of is Weapon Katas at level 1? *scrolls up a moment* Oops... my bad... I did forget that little tidbit

Overall, my money is on the Moo Gi Gong practitioner... unless the Shih Ba Ban Wu Yi artist can catch him unarmed, in his underwear, in a locked windowless warehouse located in the middle of the desert... and maybe blindfolded too.