Rifts in need of a whole new system?

[Nether]

Hey, I'm new here and have been playing Rifts for about 15 years now, but wanted to see if any have the same desire as me for a new Rifts.

I think that a new system is valid because to me,
-the current one has a convoluted rule system as is, makes encounters take much longer,
-i think the skill system could use a updating to allow it to be opposed skill rolls
-the system could use some streamlining
-some balance updates are needed, ie guns, tech, power armor, psionics, spells from all the books could be reviewed and brought to a tighter functioning to each other, so not to have so much discrepency between say pistols ext.
-needs to be some type of perception skill added to base stats that can be enhanced but also is opposed by stealth ext.
-a more universal way to customize OCC's a bit, ei a OCC is said to behave this way only. (say Lord Magus as one example, then in same book they create a npc that is the opposite of that). This would allow players a bit more freedom in deciding how they want to play thier character vs this is the only way it should be played.

One current philosophy by the creators is a core rule of make the rules how you want to fit your game needs to be removed. Any game that has this as a core makes griefing in the game by gm's much more common. It is also lazy design when you have to rely on this as a rule because current ones don't exist or are inadiquate.

When i say new system, i mean a completely new and redone system. Not the crap they have now of revisions / versions as they are just the same convoluted rule system spread all over the place with many holes in them.

Would you buy new system version books if they came out?

What do you think of this and do you have anything to add?

P.S., i didn't see any other threads for this and have not found the search function for this forum yet to double check.

[MikelAmroni]

Short version - it'll never happen. Not because its not needed, not because it might not be a bad idea, just because its not what Palladium is focused on. They don't want to invalidate their long time players by making them have to go through a bunch of hoops to use new books. For better or worse, we are pretty much stuck with what we've got. I am sure others will reply, and you'll be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't agree with you in principle, but the details and realities of the situation are that its just not plausible in the near to long term future. I'd be just as happy if they went to concurrent PDF releases of their stuff. I can always house rule and make things work that I don't think work. In fact I think its possible to redo the core resolution system to accomodate the existing material without invalidating new growth. But I don't have a proposal to present, nor the necessary publishing cred built up with Palladium to make it happen. Change like you're wanting won't come from random posting on the board but by someone who can write well who then makes it their life's goal to innovate Palladium's rules system. Kevin cares about story, not rules. He's said so on multiple occasions (I heard him say it a DragonCon panel in 2003, and he's been quoted many times since).

[Shark_Force]

i agree with MikelAmroni.

should get done? yes.

needs to get done? well, it'd be nice, but the system can work. most of the time. i don't know that i'd go so far as to say it needs to get done, but i do think it would be a vast improvement to go over everything, clean it up, update the rules to be a little more consistent, etc.

will get done? sadly, not likely to happen at all. as much as i think a complete rules revamp could benefit palladium greatly, i don't expect to see it happen so long as kevin is in charge. frankly, i don't think it will happen even if someone *did* do all the work, and present it to kevin. about the best i could see happening is if someone was to write a series of articles for the rifter, including rules for converting all the old stuff to the new system. problem being, that would require you to either buy several rifters, or persuade the rifter to make a single rifter basically just one big long article.

[Galroth]

i agree with MikelAmroni.

should get done? yes.

needs to get done? well, it'd be nice, but the system can work. most of the time. i don't know that i'd go so far as to say it needs to get done, but i do think it would be a vast improvement to go over everything, clean it up, update the rules to be a little more consistent, etc.

will get done? sadly, not likely to happen at all. as much as i think a complete rules revamp could benefit palladium greatly, i don't expect to see it happen so long as kevin is in charge. frankly, i don't think it will happen even if someone *did* do all the work, and present it to kevin. about the best i could see happening is if someone was to write a series of articles for the rifter, including rules for converting all the old stuff to the new system. problem being, that would require you to either buy several rifters, or persuade the rifter to make a single rifter basically just one big long article.

Even if they were to redo the system top to bottom it would still be written by Kevin. So you would end up with the same types of things that you like about the new system that you liked about the old one, and the same things that bugged you about the old would probably exist in the new system. All of that and you'd have to buy new books.

[Dunia]

Do RIFTS need a new system?
Yes, badly

Will it ever happen?
No, If it were the case, then this new system would need all books & games to be refurnished to this new system. KS would never allow it.

I myself, has no longer need for any RIFTS book, I have taken what I want from the world that was created and I do my race, with my rules system which has 1) allowed for much quicker encounters, 2) Put more realism in the rules and 3) Done away with all the bugs that exists in RUE.
What is so special with RIFTS is the world, the system is so bad that I wish to cry at times and if you want a larger encounter it will take hours to play a few melees of combat. My players have all agreed with me in this that they want to play in the world, but not use the system & rules. I was just at both Gothcon and Lincon here in Sweden (our two biggest gaming cons) and I learned that No one plays RIFTS for they think the system suck. No gamestore present at the con has any RIFTS stuff for sale, as it does not sell, because of the rules & system.

[keir451]

I agree with ALL!! I do believe that Palladium needs a serious revision once and for all, will that happen as long as Kevin is in charge? NO! A game publisher who is TOO concerned with story over flow of game play and streamlining of rules to HELP his product should be replaced.

[DhAkael]

I'd love a 32-page Rifts quickstart primer, but that's another topic.

Honestly, rules are pretty low on my ladder of importance. As gamers wiser than I have said, Players first, then snacks, then setting, then rules.

Ah..a true olde-school gamer. Excellent.

I agree that the Pbooks system really needed to be re-built ground up, BUT Kevin flubbed that with the R:UE. So as with all GM's I just grin, bear it and chuck what's not needed.
I'd LOVE to have something like the old R.Talsorian Interlock(tm) system, especially for robot / mech construction, and streamlined combat AND skill rolls; but... didn't happen.
Same with spaceship creation... woulda loved a somewhat number heavy, but streamlined construction rule-set. Instead we just got a set of vague (and somewhat arbitrary and puzzling) GUIDELINES

So what is done?
I tell a good story and just use bit & peices of what works and make sure all my players know from square one what they are getting into. Suprise...my game has lasted...um... when did the first Rifts Main Book get published?
Yeah.
THAT long.

Haven't heard many complaints about "house rullin'" as long as the game is fun.

[Incriptus]

I'm on the fence. From a game design point they really need better "Event Checks". A Universal System should have three factors. 1) Opposability, every action should have allow for something else to interfere with that action. 2) Divisibility, every action should allow for degrees of success. 3) Scalability, every action should allow for the same rules regardless of magnitude.

Palladium gets

Two stars on #1. Combat is almost entirely opposable. You get to actively defend yourself from every attack be it parry/dodge/roll/save. Some people complain it's too time consuming . . . well I guess you could give everyone a 10 for their parry [or autododge] rolls and call it armor class. . . Unfortunetly when it comes to skills you don't have any opposed rolls. Demolitions vs Demolitions disposal . . . um . . . I don't know.

One star for #2. Rules as written [With the exception of Critical Hits] there is essentially no way to differentiate between one successful roll and another. There are some unoffical or common sense means but theyre not mechanically installed. Two character have a cook off, who's cooking is better? Did the 5th level character who rolled a 64% have better food than they 2nd level character who rolled a 22%?

Two and one half stars on #3: I do think Mega Damage is a good idea. It allows you to differentiate between two extreems in magnitude. Even though many of the numbers are arbitary the fact that they allow for simple multiplication makes large numbers playable. Who here has been asked to drop 16d6 in other games? If movement speeds were defined in 5 foot squares how many squares would a cosmoknight move in 6 seconds?

Tired now, may edit later. . . but yes Palladium could use a rules rewrite. Changing the Skills system would be the best overhaul, expecially if they could include rules based npc interactions.

[Grinning Demon]

Honestly, rules are pretty low on my ladder of importance. As gamers wiser than I have said, Players first, then snacks, then setting, then rules.

This is something I adhere to as well! I personally love the Rifts setting and play knowing full well the system's limitations and drawbacks. The problem is not with me (the GM), it's my core group of players (and many others) have grown so frustrated with the rules or lack thereof that they simply don't want to have anything to do with Rifts/Palladium. The echo from so many gamers is that I love the setting, HATE the rules. I've played Rifts since the early 1990's and back then it was almost on par with AD&D in terms of popularity! Look at where both games are now. One adapted, one didn't. One is the most popular RPG in the world, the other isn't. Those are the facts. Take with them what you will.

[Supergyro]

I'd like a return to system roots, though I mean that in a strange way.

In 1983 the Palladium fantasy RPG was published, it was published by someone who seemed intimately familiar with the RPG's out at the time and who sought to make a system that was better than all of them. They succeeded, in 1983, the palladium system was literally the best out there.

Unfortunately, the system is *still* the best system circa 1983. I'd love a system revision that is the *same* thing, as in written by people intimately familiar with the RPG systems of 2011 and seeks to be a step or two beyond.

I don't think I'm going to get that, but it would be nice.

[Giant2005]

I'd prefer the rules not to change.
Even the rule tweaks in RUE annoyed me.
I am happy enough for the changes as long as they retroactively change everything but they don't and won't. If they don't update things in the books already out, then rule changes are most certainly unwelcome.
Some examples, the likes of the Temporal Warrior's Auto-Dodge, because of the rule change giving a seperate bonus as opposed to an upgrade to the regular dodge, his autododge which was once the same as everyone else's is now weaker. Every class/race printed before the RUE gets a handicapping +0 to perception. Classes/races who once were superior to the likes of the Ley Line Walker in PPE and deservedly so, now have less PPE due to the general boost offered with the RUE.

If they changed the rules and somehow updated every other book adequately with it, I'd be happy. Otherwise, no.

[wyrmraker]

A full updating would be good, a complete system rewrite would be best. Sadly, the system foundations laid on in Palladium Fantasy doesn't really work well for high-tech settings. It's more of a shoe-horning, but it will not be re-written.
Updating the previously written books is an excellent idea, given how the power levels have creeped upwards over the years. Just look at the differences in power levels from Rifts Main to CWC. Then bring in other items, such as Japan and Triax, and suddenly all of the 'advanced' tech in Rifts Main is sorely outdated, to the point where even CS members are ashamed by their crappy gear. Therefore, CWC was put out.
Granted, some of the canon storylines don't make a lot of sense to a lot of the readership (the war on Tolkeen is a shining example of the ongoing arguments both for and against the as-written storyline). And a lot of people complain about the lack of balance in the setting.
But it's the setting that we enjoy, and our best recourse is to adopt our own, at-home rulings on matters that simply don't make any sense (such as the wholesale doing-away-with of most weapons' auto-fire capabilities).

[Hystrix]

There are definatly things they could change to improve the rules and such. I hope they don't, mostly because I
m afraid of what a Vagabond OCC would look like with another revamp!

[Shark_Force]

And a lot of people complain about the lack of balance in the setting.

to be fair, i don't consider that to be inherently a problem. i mean, it *can* be a problem if everyone in the group isn't on the same page... but honestly, that's going to be a problem either way, if not everyone is working together to some extent.

in fact, given how obsessed most games have become with balance lately, i might even go so far as to say that palladium should explicitly stick with a policy of "screw balance, we have a setting to create, and if it calls for imbalance then that's what we're going to do", as that is one area where it definitely does not have any competition. it's funny, because i'll often catch myself looking at fan material for palladium games and thinking "oh, that's a cool idea. but it's not balanced." and then i'll stop and think "oh, wait. who cares. it's a cool idea, i can use it whether it's balanced or not because the system isn't designed to only work if everything is as near a perfect state of balance as possible."

and really, it's getting harder and harder to find a system like that. certainly, improvements could be made for palladium... i mean, some really basic stuff is basically missing (like the aforementioned opposed skill checks), and even the rules that we have tend to be confusing, contradictory, and in weird parts of the book (and even in other books entirely) far too often. but the balance... frankly, that's one thing i hope palladium never gets too fixated on. i'd just like to see the rules made to be more clear, more complete, and ideally in one location.

the concept of a single (or at least, primary) rules book for all palladium products, with the books that are added being primarily setting material and such. i'd even be fine with new rules being introduced... but i'd like those to be introduced in the form of a second "rule book" that (again) should be valid for all palladium products in most cases.

[wyrmraker]

I agree with the power disparity. The setting was never meant to be balanced. The key to balance is in the game mastering, specifically what the GM allows the characters to have and play. After all, if you've got four humans from the CS military, and then a Godling Gunfighter with two areas of magic and master-level psionics joins in, that is unbalanced. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be allowed, just that it is unbalanced.
The main complaint about balance comes from several things inherent in the Palladium system. Foremost is min-maxing, i.e. "whatever gives me the most bonuses". This can easily get out of hand, and is both easy and common to do with physical skills (we have a guy in our party with a legitimate 40 PS, for example. And he's human). Adding in RCCs and OCCs based exclusively on the bonuses is the most common cause of complaints about Balance.

[Athos]

Hey, I'm new here and have been playing Rifts for about 15 years now, but wanted to see if any have the same desire as me for a new Rifts.

Welcome to the forums

I think that a new system is valid because to me,
-the current one has a convoluted rule system as is, makes encounters take much longer,

In most good RPGs, combats take a while, I really don't see any way around this unless you make it very easy for the party to die, which makes the game a lot less fun for all, IMO. What I try to do as a GM, is either cut down on the sheer number of monsters the party is fighting, to speed things up, and to only make combat encounters when necessary and they add to the story, and not just one or three or however many per session.

-i think the skill system could use a updating to allow it to be opposed skill rolls

I really don't like opposed skill rolls, I think they are kind of munchy and you get kids with 199% in whatever, that love to show how they can show up any and everyone. I prefer the simpler system of you roll, you are either successful or not, and that is it. Otherwise you have to get into a power creep war with the players that have those impossibly high scores and that kind of escalation makes me sick.

-the system could use some streamlining

I whole-heartedly disagree. The reason I left 4th edition was they dumbed D&D down to the point that my dog played it pretty well. I think he had a 30th level mage, (that had no spells of course, because the morons removed spells ) last I checked, and was gaming on the internet. Smart dog, dumb game. I think good games that require some kind of intelligence to play are more interesting to me.

-some balance updates are needed, ie guns, tech, power armor, psionics, spells from all the books could be reviewed and brought to a tighter functioning to each other, so not to have so much discrepency between say pistols ext.

The GM has to insure that he has a balanced party. Period. End of statement. If you let players come in all over the place power wise, you deserve what you get.

-needs to be some type of perception skill added to base stats that can be enhanced but also is opposed by stealth ext.

They added perception, prowl has been there since the beginning. I don't particularly like perception, but hey...

-a more universal way to customize OCC's a bit, ei a OCC is said to behave this way only. (say Lord Magus as one example, then in same book they create a npc that is the opposite of that). This would allow players a bit more freedom in deciding how they want to play thier character vs this is the only way it should be played.

OCC Related skills and Secondary skills allow you customize your character. That and the fact you have like 300 OCC/RCCs is enough IMO.

One current philosophy by the creators is a core rule of make the rules how you want to fit your game needs to be removed. Any game that has this as a core makes griefing in the game by gm's much more common. It is also lazy design when you have to rely on this as a rule because current ones don't exist or are inadiquate.

As a GM, I have no problems making logical rulings. I would much rather have things open and let me rule on them than for the creators of the game to make a bad rule that I then have to overturn and listen to players whine about it.

Would you buy new system version books if they came out?

NO !!! I bought RUE, it was a nice book, not even sure if it was needed, but I bought it anyway, since my GM in one game moved to it. I don't like change though.

What do you think of this and do you have anything to add?

I would make some changes:

Noone, no matter how bad a shot, that has come through Boot Camp, can miss with a Rifle at 50 yards, 35% of the time. I would change the ranged combat to have a standard miss on a 1 or 2, natural roll, same with melee which I would change as well. I think natural misses of 7 and down and 4 and down are too generous to the defender.

Let's see what else, I would limit the parry and dodge bonuses to your level, so a 7th level could only have a +7 maximum, etc.

I would really nerf the dodge rules for modern weapons. How the hell are you going to dodge a laser moving at the speed of freaking light? I don't care how juiced up you think you are, it ain't going to happen.

I would get rid of the dimension books except for Naruni, Wormwood, Hades and Dyval. The alien characters I have been asked to allow into my Rifts games are too sick to mention.

I would NOT, under any circumstances, allow those rotten munchkin types to bring in their super power enhanced HU characters into my precious Rifts

Oh, I could go on all day on house rules, but those are some of my pet issues with the game.

[Grinning Demon]

Warmaster D= KS

[Shark_Force]

I guess I have to disagree with almost everyone here. I LOVE the PALLADIUM SYSTEM RULES, I not only own and play every game that Palladium has published but I have created my own games using the Palladium rules set and my players love them. I know the system so well I never have to consult a book, I would hate a system change. I don't think what TSR did was an improvment at all, it was nothing but a marketing scheme to rob long time fans of AD&D of their hard earned money. I would much rather wait six months for a new Rifts book than get a new one written by a different author every other week that was inconsistent with what had all ready been published. I have some issues with some of the story changes and equipment problems but I have never had an issue with the game mechanics and I hope the game never changes its base rules set.

seriously?

most palladium stuff has a hard time being consistent with *itself* let alone being consistent with other books.

also, pretty much all the rifts books these days are written by different authors. or at least, kevin gets a draft from those others, then proceeds to do whatever he likes with that draft pretty much (frankly, given how much this limits his production, you'd think he'd just make a note of what needs changing and send it back. but then, i'm pretty sure kevin is a bit of a control freak... it's admirable that he wants to control what gets published in his line and all, but it's not so great that he feels the need to do so much himself, instead of letting others do the work so that more can actually get through the pipeline...)

[Nether]

Glad to see i~m not alone on this issue.

I am not looking for them to create a new game version simular to dnd 4e ext (which btw i think is just a glorified board game), but take the flavor they have but come up with a new and improved rule set. I have always loved the difference in power level which i think is great, though in that respect i would like to see a little more classification overall, ie like power armor mdc levels which determine usually if power armor is light, med, heavy ext, but have it apply all around.

I know many put role playing before the system, but the rule system is what determines how much work goes in to controlling your game, and giving everyone a standard of what is and isn~t. For those groups that don~t have this issue then it wouldn~t really matter what game system you were using as you are running off of pure story anyway.

To the poster that said they should have a universal rulebook for all of the systems, that i completely agree with and would save alot of book space, as well as reprinting same materiel over and over. In the case where fantasy rpg may not use certain rules, they could have it ignore the modern rules that dont apply.

I run games for multiple groups, and one thing i find universal is all of them hate the Rifts system. They like me love the setting, but the system has become such a hassle that we~ve spent the time to convert the game to the Hero system and use the Rifts books for the setting ; content. Let me tell ya, it is alot of effort to do this, but it has become worth it for us in order to enjoy a setting we love.

It is great KS greatly values roleplay at the expense of rules, but i also think he is a terrible leader for the company in terms of what strategies are best for it and how PB should prosper, hence the crap hole they are in now. I honestly believe that the only way we would ever see a new system or some positve changes get this company going again is for KS to not be in charge. He is great for game setting content, but he is killing the company on the business side.

I know i will get flamed for this last view but i really would like to see PB become strong again, thru successful products and not begging because of poor me.

[Killer Cyborg]

Would you buy new system version books if they came out?

Yup.

What do you think of this and do you have anything to add?

ANY and EVERY change in the rules changes the game world, because the rules are the physics of the game world.
Rifts with any other system would not be the Rifts that we know now.

But D&D 3.0 wasn't the D&D that we knew before, and it worked out just fine in my book.
Better, even.


Overall, though, I don't see it happening.
And if it does, that doesn't mean that the new system would be better than what we have now.
Instead of D&D 3.x, we might end up with 4.0.

[Killer Cyborg]

It is great KS greatly values roleplay at the expense of rules, but i also think he is a terrible leader for the company in terms of what strategies are best for it and how PB should prosper, hence the crap hole they are in now. I honestly believe that the only way we would ever see a new system or some positve changes get this company going again is for KS to not be in charge. He is great for game setting content, but he is killing the company on the business side.

I know i will get flamed for this last view but i really would like to see PB become strong again, thru successful products and not begging because of poor me.

I'm not going to flame you for it, but I'll point out that it's pretty easy to be an armchair CEO where you don't have to do any of the work or take any of the risks.
I have my own complaints and questions about how Kevin runs things, but since I've never even managed to finish writing my own system, much less publish anything, much less become a fairly major player in the role-playing industry, I figure that Kev might be better qualified to run his company than I would be.

How's your company doing?

[Nether]

It is great KS greatly values roleplay at the expense of rules, but i also think he is a terrible leader for the company in terms of what strategies are best for it and how PB should prosper, hence the crap hole they are in now. I honestly believe that the only way we would ever see a new system or some positve changes get this company going again is for KS to not be in charge. He is great for game setting content, but he is killing the company on the business side.

I know i will get flamed for this last view but i really would like to see PB become strong again, thru successful products and not begging because of poor me.

I'm not going to flame you for it, but I'll point out that it's pretty easy to be an armchair CEO where you don't have to do any of the work or take any of the risks.
I have my own complaints and questions about how Kevin runs things, but since I've never even managed to finish writing my own system, much less publish anything, much less become a fairly major player in the role-playing industry, I figure that Kev might be better qualified to run his company than I would be.

How's your company doing?

I~m not trying to be an armchair ceo nor does it really have anything to do with what i was saying. I pointed out where they are at currently and how i a consumer see things. Your point suggests you need to be a ceo in order to make valid points or point out what is apparent.
The scientist or inventor usually doesn~t run the business, and the ones that do have business acumen, hence why i think PB is in troubles. Very simular to sports teams, when the team keeps failing they usually fire the coach.

[Killer Cyborg]

It is great KS greatly values roleplay at the expense of rules, but i also think he is a terrible leader for the company in terms of what strategies are best for it and how PB should prosper, hence the crap hole they are in now. I honestly believe that the only way we would ever see a new system or some positve changes get this company going again is for KS to not be in charge. He is great for game setting content, but he is killing the company on the business side.

I know i will get flamed for this last view but i really would like to see PB become strong again, thru successful products and not begging because of poor me.

I'm not going to flame you for it, but I'll point out that it's pretty easy to be an armchair CEO where you don't have to do any of the work or take any of the risks.
I have my own complaints and questions about how Kevin runs things, but since I've never even managed to finish writing my own system, much less publish anything, much less become a fairly major player in the role-playing industry, I figure that Kev might be better qualified to run his company than I would be.

How's your company doing?

I~m not trying to be an armchair ceo nor does it really have anything to do with what i was saying. I pointed out where they are at currently and how i a consumer see things. Your point suggests you need to be a ceo in order to make valid points or point out what is apparent.

Nah; my point is that it's always easier said than done, and it's always easier to concentrate on the mote in the other guy's eye.

The scientist or inventor usually doesn~t run the business, and the ones that do have business acumen, hence why i think PB is in troubles.

Good way to put it.

[Galroth]

Would you buy new system version books if they came out?

Yup.

What do you think of this and do you have anything to add?

ANY and EVERY change in the rules changes the game world, because the rules are the physics of the game world.
Rifts with any other system would not be the Rifts that we know now.

But D&D 3.0 wasn't the D&D that we knew before, and it worked out just fine in my book.
Better, even.


Overall, though, I don't see it happening.
And if it does, that doesn't mean that the new system would be better than what we have now.
Instead of D&D 3.x, we might end up with 4.0.

Eww, that's an awful thought.

[Dr Megaverse]

Simple answer...house rules.

At the end of the day you can streamline/change/update anything you want in your own time.

Unless of course you're a purist and find it anathema to go outside the "rules"...then you'll just have to hold your breath....for a long time

[keir451]

Would you buy new system version books if they came out?

Yup.

What do you think of this and do you have anything to add?

ANY and EVERY change in the rules changes the game world, because the rules are the physics of the game world.
Rifts with any other system would not be the Rifts that we know now.

But D&D 3.0 wasn't the D&D that we knew before, and it worked out just fine in my book.
Better, even.


Overall, though, I don't see it happening.
And if it does, that doesn't mean that the new system would be better than what we have now.
Instead of D&D 3.x, we might end up with 4.0.

Eww, that's an awful thought.

True. Nonetheless the system does need some "trimming of the fat" unfortunately convincing the game creator of that is a difficult, if not impossible, prospect. But keep pestering him anyway and maybe he'll get the point.

[Nether]

Simple answer...house rules.

At the end of the day you can streamline/change/update anything you want in your own time.

Unless of course you're a purist and find it anathema to go outside the "rules"...then you'll just have to hold your breath....for a long time

House rules is a bad decision imo, as i don~t know anyone who doesn~t use ALOT of house rules to make the system work.. partially at best.

If house rules is what the creator wants then why even have such a rule heavy system to begin with when the system could be a simple like Paranoia as that is a all roleplaying system and house rule (GM) is all you need.

I have done plenty of roleplaying where i don~t use any dice at all, and many cinematic scenes i don~t use dice at all. But the rule system determines what characters are capable of and not capable of. I see this akin to comics, like Marvel, you will find that a character does x with his powers and uses them in such ways, then another encounter for same character all of a sudden then can~t do the same thing they did in the past with powers. This is because for comics, story trumps all and there is no system to keep characters and events in line, hence why continuity is soo terrible in said environments.

But also, comics have one writer telling all, so they don~t have to always explain this and that is why it works, and debate every decision. I have one player on weekend who just argues everything.

[Dunia]

I have no problem with the rules. My beef, however, is that rules are scattered all over the place. They need to organize their stuff better, make it easier to find.

I am quite annoyed that they refer all the time to other books, even PB books from a different line of game, I found some refernces in a Rifts book to Palladium fantasy.
yes, you want to earn money, but forcing your players to buy ALL your books/games - you just shoot yourself in the foot.

[Nether]

I have no problem with the rules. My beef, however, is that rules are scattered all over the place. They need to organize their stuff better, make it easier to find.

I am quite annoyed that they refer all the time to other books, even PB books from a different line of game, I found some refernces in a Rifts book to Palladium fantasy.
yes, you want to earn money, but forcing your players to buy ALL your books/games - you just shoot yourself in the foot.

Completely agree with this. I happen to have all the Rifts, HU, NB books twice, but it is extremely aggravating when you are trying to find a rule, rule update ext that is scattered across books. Not to mention the o so loved dnd, at least now they have the rules, and then a errata that updates the rules without searching all over for this and that rule.

[Killer Cyborg]

Nonetheless the system does need some "trimming of the fat" unfortunately convincing the game creator of that is a difficult, if not impossible, prospect. But keep pestering him anyway and maybe he'll get the point.

Uh... Palladium is actively asking people for their rule changes.
You can pester them if you want, but it's probably easier just to tell them what changes you'd like to see.

[Nether]

Nonetheless the system does need some "trimming of the fat" unfortunately convincing the game creator of that is a difficult, if not impossible, prospect. But keep pestering him anyway and maybe he'll get the point.

Uh... Palladium is actively asking people for their rule changes.
You can pester them if you want, but it's probably easier just to tell them what changes you'd like to see.

Lol, well i guess i am telling him what i and many of my players want, a new updated system instead of rules tweaks. Keep the same flavor with the strike parry dodge ext, but give us some opposed skill ; power rolls, make it easier to compare ; compete in said areas.

Get rid of the stupid rules of weapons can~t be dodged and requires straight d20 roll ext. No one cares, let us immerse ourselves in the game with the cinematic and fun, i don~t need to play Rift and the Realism game.

So much needs to be fixed or improved that a new system would be the way to go instead of trying to fix the ;bible; as it were.

[DhAkael]

- yawn sigh -

[Nether]

Well first off I can assure you I am not KS, but I have been playing his games forever. I simply find the Palladium System lends itself well to many different genres. I had created a Resident Evil game long before palladium had a zombie game and my personal favorite that my players love, is our Mobile Suit Gundam game; which we are currently playing now. Rifts is my absolute favorite palladium game of all time and I love the setting, I guess personaly I never noticed any problems with the rules set. I find the games to be very fast paced and the combat to be very immersive and interactive. Just my opinion.

Sinse you have been playing in his games for a long time i suspect you have conformed to his playstyle hence why you are not as concerned that much about the rules as he is. I also suspect he is a very ;my way or the highway; type personality, not alot of group as a unit makes the rules but only the gm does. That is fine and all but for the rest of us that do put much more use to the rules and for them to be the ground zero for minimizing the amount of work a gm has to do with house rules, explaining to the group;player why and for players to know what they can ; can~t do, easy cost ; rule finding ext and making it overall easier to manage it all, it is important to us.

A new rule book would do that where just appending the current mess of rules doesn~t.

*excuse the grammar as i~m typing on a english keyboard on a portuguese OS.

[Nether]

- yawn sigh -

It would be nice if you would contribute more than just that as it really is pointless and a waste of a post.

[TechnoGothic]

Does RIFTS need a whole new system ??

Simple Answer : NO !

What people like in various systems is personal or changes from group to group. You cannot make everyone happy.

I have played many systems. I like and dislike aspects of each system. It will be that way no matter the system.

Right now, I like RIFTS and Palladium in general because of the "powerlevel" to the settings and system in general. Try playing something like a Glitterboy in D&D, you cannot do it really. Your character would need to Epic/God levels to begin playing one, which is dumb.

WOULD I LIKE TO SEE RULES CHANGES or ALTERNATE RULES PUBLISHED that are OPTIONAL ??
SURE !! Thats what the Rifter is for, right ?
Yeah I would love to see a Variation to the main rules printed maybe as a Varient Rules Source Book.
They could publish say No Leveling rules for the Megaversal system. Where you spend your EXP on increasing your Stats, Skills, abilities.
They could publish say No % Skills rules, making each +5% a +1 on a d20 roll for success or failure.
They could publish say ... Roll Under rules or Roll Over rules of Attributes for Skills.

But at the end of the day, you have certain systems out there. Each of which does a few things great, and others things they do horriblilly IMHO.

But part of RIFTS setting is the rules itself of the Megaversal system. Remove that and its not RIFTS anymore, its someone else's setting/system instead, and you lose something in Translation to another system, it cannot be helped. Even ppl House Rules changes the "feel" of the settings.

The ablity to decide to House Rule things or not is a good point about the system. You really dont have to worry about Game Balance too much which is a good thing IMHO. 'Cause too many systems out there are too worried about game balance. They should just make a video game and go away IMHO.

[TechnoGothic]

I'd prefer the rules not to change.
Even the rule tweaks in RUE annoyed me.
I am happy enough for the changes as long as they retroactively change everything but they don't and won't. If they don't update things in the books already out, then rule changes are most certainly unwelcome.
Some examples, the likes of the Temporal Warrior's Auto-Dodge, because of the rule change giving a seperate bonus as opposed to an upgrade to the regular dodge, his autododge which was once the same as everyone else's is now weaker. Every class/race printed before the RUE gets a handicapping +0 to perception. Classes/races who once were superior to the likes of the Ley Line Walker in PPE and deservedly so, now have less PPE due to the general boost offered with the RUE.

If they changed the rules and somehow updated every other book adequately with it, I'd be happy. Otherwise, no.

RUE annoyed me alot too.
I'll stick to RMB forever !!

[The Dark Elf]

Does Rifts need a whole new system?

No. I play it fine and have loads of fun whilst doing it.

Tweaks, rules compendium, additions are all welcome. But a whole new system? Definitely not.

[Rallan]

I agree with ALL!! I do believe that Palladium needs a serious revision once and for all, will that happen as long as Kevin is in charge? NO! A game publisher who is TOO concerned with story over flow of game play and streamlining of rules to HELP his product should be replaced.

What story? The backstory in Palladium's settings is usually very stock standard and rarely has any surprise twists, the NPCs are classic four-color-comic and pulp-fantasy archetypes played straight, the world info is usually limited to broad overviews so there'll be more room left over for endless lists of toys and OCCs, and metaplot is an exceedingly rare thing that they've only experimented with a handful of times. Palladium's not exactly famous for lushly detailed settings, intricate machiavellian storylines, mechanics that encourage plot and character development, or immersive writing.

If he's concerned as a publisher with story, it's not showing. Because Palladium just keeps on plugging away with games of high adventure and simplistic good vs evil plotlines where archetypal RPG adventurers band together to thwart the latest saturday morning cartoon plots of the goatee-stroking villains. This isn't a bad thing (escapism and larger than life action are one of the most popular attractions of RPGs in general), but "story over flow of game play" is not how I'd describe the priorities Palladium have when they're publishing new material.

[ShadowLogan]

I think that a new system is valid because to me,

I don't. The fact that the PB system has remained similiar for so long I think atests to something good about it. Just because the system is old doesn't mean it needs to be dropped in favor of a new revised one every few years.

Does that mean the system doesn't need some adjustments? No it doesn't. But a new system itself is not required.

-i think the skill system could use a updating to allow it to be opposed skill rolls

Could simply adapt/expand the Perception vs Skill rules on Rifts Ultimate Edition pg 368 to allow for opposed skill checks.

-some balance updates are needed, ie guns, tech, power armor, psionics, spells from all the books could be reviewed and brought to a tighter functioning to each other, so not to have so much discrepency between say pistols ext.

To do this would require revisions to way to many books to be practical (30WB+, 12DB+, 20+SBs, CE line, RT line, Splicers line), it would be easier to install a sense of scale within the rules that can be plugged in (similiar to a rule we see in Fot3G concerning star fighter vs starship combat). I think the (MDC) stats are already figured with a sense of a scale, we just don't know how the scales are supposed to interact for the most part.

-needs to be some type of perception skill added to base stats that can be enhanced but also is opposed by stealth ext.

as mentioned above RUE pg 368.

-a more universal way to customize OCC's a bit, ei a OCC is said to behave this way only. (say Lord Magus as one example, then in same book they create a npc that is the opposite of that). This would allow players a bit more freedom in deciding how they want to play thier character vs this is the only way it should be played.

I think (and mentioned by another poster) this is already the case what with secondary and other skill selections as far as customization go. And there really isn't much to stop players/GMs from playing a given class with a non-standard behavior.

[jarlaxle]

a new system is no good people stop playing when they have to recollect everything they already have.

white wolfs world of darkness the vampire the masqurade then be came revised(compatable atleast) then requiem. i never started requiem not after over 1000 dollars of books became obsolete

[Tiree]

It doesn't matter if a revision is backward compatible or not. It doesn't invalidate the work that is already there. Look at Shadowrun. They are on 4 editions, major changes to statistics yet the background and useful material is still there.

Star Wars there are two editions in D6, three for d20, and I have see. GMs pull from any era, any supplement, and get it to work.

So if they do make a new version, I hope they do not revise all their books. Just cut it and move forward.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

What story? The backstory in Palladium's settings is usually very stock standard and rarely has any surprise twists, the NPCs are classic four-color-comic and pulp-fantasy archetypes played straight, the world info is usually limited to broad overviews so there'll be more room left over for endless lists of toys and OCCs, and metaplot is an exceedingly rare thing that they've only experimented with a handful of times. Palladium's not exactly famous for lushly detailed settings, intricate machiavellian storylines, mechanics that encourage plot and character development, or immersive writing.

If he's concerned as a publisher with story, it's not showing. Because Palladium just keeps on plugging away with games of high adventure and simplistic good vs evil plotlines where archetypal RPG adventurers band together to thwart the latest saturday morning cartoon plots of the goatee-stroking villains. This isn't a bad thing (escapism and larger than life action are one of the most popular attractions of RPGs in general), but "story over flow of game play" is not how I'd describe the priorities Palladium have when they're publishing new material.

I would (respectfully) disagree with this. War & Peace is a story. So is Treasure Island. So is Green Eggs & Ham. So is the plotline to the last episode of the Avengers or Justice League Unlimited. Now, if you're talking about the type of story you want, perhaps Palladium isn't doing what you'd like to see. But the overarching style of Palladium's products is to give you all these bits and pieces and the broad outlines you describe to make story emergent. I think that's more their priority.

Palladium is, I think, known for the "enthusiasm factor". That's something many other gaming companies lack. There's this underlying idea of "HOLY CRAP, CHECK THIS OUT" I find compelling and endearing. If the author's voice is one of excitement and enthusiasm, I think that bleeds over into my game.

But back to your observations on lack of Machiavellian plots or mechanics that encourage plot & character development. That's not the responsibility of Rifts or Palladium's lines. They give you the building blocks of this world/Megaverse. If you want to run some sort of noir game set in the bowels of Chi-Town, you can. If you want to play a high-action shoot 'em up smash-fest, you can. Rift is going to have what you put into it. That's on the Game Master and group to facilitate that. Not to digress, but I believe that in terms of impacting the plot of a game, system weighs far less on a game than your group and the setting, both of which (just like mechanics!) may be tweaked at the GM's and group's discretion.

In summation, Palladium isn't a game that dictates the story to you; it gives you the tools to get into that sandbox and make your own story. It's not dictating story, it's allowing the GM to find his own voice within those building blocks. I find when gaming companies try to dictate a specific meta-plot or overarching story directly through product, that's when it's all aboard the Railroad. Thankfully, that's not what Palladium is about.

That's just my opinion, of course, and I understand if you don't share it. Cheers, and happy gaming!

-Zachary

And that is why i love Palladium Books

[Nether]

-I don't. The fact that the PB system has remained similiar for so long I think atests to something good about it. Just because the system is old doesn't mean it needs to be dropped in favor of a new revised one every few years.


To do this would require revisions to way to many books to be practical (30WB+, 12DB+, 20+SBs, CE line, RT line, Splicers line), it would be easier to install a sense of scale within the rules that can be plugged in (similiar to a rule we see in Fot3G concerning star fighter vs starship combat). I think the (MDC) stats are already figured with a sense of a scale, we just don't know how the scales are supposed to interact for the most part.

-I think (and mentioned by another poster) this is already the case what with secondary and other skill selections as far as customization go. And there really isn't much to stop players/GMs from playing a given class with a non-standard behavior.

Te system being around for such a long time is solely due to one man being very adamant about never wanting to create a new updated one. I still have the email from when i emailed faq over 10 years ago asking for rules clarification and i happen to ask if they were going to create a new system. The response i got in that email was pretty negative and rude towards me when i only asked a question with no ridicule, demands or any rudeness, just simply inquiring and wow, did that question bring a spazz on me for nothing. It just goes to show what the office mentality has been about such a thing without valid points or fair discussion.

With the balance updates to weapons, armor PA, vehicles ext i was indicating more towards if they did do a 2.0 system, and ported the current books to it, it would give them perfect opportunity to establish guidelines for those items and then redo them in the expac books. I also like that they do have individual weapons, armor ext versus just say generic armor which has to be x mdc. So i do agree absolutely with you that they do need the items effects range categories and let the gm ; players know what they should be.

As for customizing OCC~s i actually meant it a little differently, not about customizing with skills ext, but about the flavor text. I will just use one book for ie but i know this applies to many books.
Lord Magus, the flavor text says they~re personality is like this, and only like this, then they have a npc in the book who is the only npc representation of said OCC and she is completely opposite of what they just said all Lord Magus are like.
Then there is the battle magus, who they say will NEVER go out of his way to learn more than 1d4+something spells beyond what they know already.

Sounds like creator has no better way to enforce his view on players about how he wants them to play the character than for any real reason to why you would do that. Players are real people and we all want more power in certain degrees, so it is logical that players playing said class would actively seek more knowlege and spell ability.

That is all i meant by not telling us how to play a said character.


Edit: had to readjust my post here as the reply ended up going to my points when it should have been ShadowLogans points.

[Nether]

a new system is no good people stop playing when they have to recollect everything they already have.

white wolfs world of darkness the vampire the masqurade then be came revised(compatable atleast) then requiem. i never started requiem not after over 1000 dollars of books became obsolete

Well i think white wolf was already on the out with the system failing and popularity was already lost. As far as the last system that gave us a universal rule system amongst all they~re books i thought was needed a long time before, but was a step in the right direction imo.

As for all the books, well PB has given us a long run of use for the books and system, and i don~t think most of their fans would give them to hard of a time about a new system. As mentioned i own just about all of thier Rifts, HU, NB, NaSS books twice over, and i will not mind at all purchasing some new updated books from them for those systems 2.0.

And lastly to the comment about a new system ribbing customers the wrong way, PB is a company and has to make a profit to stay in business and continuing to make more product. Alot of thier customers a asking for a new system as well.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

somehow a new version of the rule set isnt going to help any system,when its easier for someone to go buy VIDEO GAMES's version of Roleplaying games(which most younger people consider roleplaying games)

[Nether]

What story? The backstory in Palladium's settings is usually very stock standard and rarely has any surprise twists, the NPCs are classic four-color-comic and pulp-fantasy archetypes played straight, the world info is usually limited to broad overviews so there'll be more room left over for endless lists of toys and OCCs, and metaplot is an exceedingly rare thing that they've only experimented with a handful of times. Palladium's not exactly famous for lushly detailed settings, intricate machiavellian storylines, mechanics that encourage plot and character development, or immersive writing.

If he's concerned as a publisher with story, it's not showing. Because Palladium just keeps on plugging away with games of high adventure and simplistic good vs evil plotlines where archetypal RPG adventurers band together to thwart the latest saturday morning cartoon plots of the goatee-stroking villains. This isn't a bad thing (escapism and larger than life action are one of the most popular attractions of RPGs in general), but "story over flow of game play" is not how I'd describe the priorities Palladium have when they're publishing new material.

I would (respectfully) disagree with this. War & Peace is a story. So is Treasure Island. So is Green Eggs & Ham. So is the plotline to the last episode of the Avengers or Justice League Unlimited. Now, if you're talking about the type of story you want, perhaps Palladium isn't doing what you'd like to see. But the overarching style of Palladium's products is to give you all these bits and pieces and the broad outlines you describe to make story emergent. I think that's more their priority.

Palladium is, I think, known for the "enthusiasm factor". That's something many other gaming companies lack. There's this underlying idea of "HOLY CRAP, CHECK THIS OUT" I find compelling and endearing. If the author's voice is one of excitement and enthusiasm, I think that bleeds over into my game.

But back to your observations on lack of Machiavellian plots or mechanics that encourage plot & character development. That's not the responsibility of Rifts or Palladium's lines. They give you the building blocks of this world/Megaverse. If you want to run some sort of noir game set in the bowels of Chi-Town, you can. If you want to play a high-action shoot 'em up smash-fest, you can. Rift is going to have what you put into it. That's on the Game Master and group to facilitate that. Not to digress, but I believe that in terms of impacting the plot of a game, system weighs far less on a game than your group and the setting, both of which (just like mechanics!) may be tweaked at the GM's and group's discretion.

In summation, Palladium isn't a game that dictates the story to you; it gives you the tools to get into that sandbox and make your own story. It's not dictating story, it's allowing the GM to find his own voice within those building blocks. I find when gaming companies try to dictate a specific meta-plot or overarching story directly through product, that's when it's all aboard the Railroad. Thankfully, that's not what Palladium is about.

That's just my opinion, of course, and I understand if you don't share it. Cheers, and happy gaming!

-Zachary

I agree with most of what you say except minor points that are bolded;

The wow factor use to be there, but i have found in alot in the latter books that it has become a whole lot less wow and more oh, thats just like x in book x with different name. Kind of like the OCCs there seems to just be a mass of redundant OCC that don~t really need to be there as a prior poster mentioned cause they can all be say, good vamp hunters, no need to show another OCC labeled differently but pretty much functions the same. same for alot of aspects in the books.

And the worst is it seems the last bunch of world books have turned into more of books of monsters and not really that much useful in them. I mean there is already tones of monsters in Rifts, give us substance of empires and how players can be a part of it.

Second point is as i just mentioned, many of the OCC~s are written to be played specifically in x way, and will not do this or that with no real good story reason. Again it is only a minor point and only touches on a small part of what you are saying.

[Nether]

somehow a new version of the rule set isnt going to help any system,when its easier for someone to go buy VIDEO GAMES's version of Roleplaying games(which most younger people consider roleplaying games)

Well that is true as most want to play something right now or when they have time when getting a group togather you need to work with everyone~s schedule and set a time.

To counter this i feel the rpg market has only one real way to combat this, and that is going heavily online. ie holsting games say on PB website, which would need to offer alot of game tools, for maps and resources uploaded by gm;players that they all can interact with, character creation, to ebooks, to visualizations of the game and chat;voice ability. This is simular to what wizards did with 4e but have really fallen out of it as thier master doesn~t see a high enough return for said investment money and pulled out of that.

This would allow gm~s and players to run games or join games as they want, brings the sometimes all so hard to find roleplayers in your area issue to an end. So just like a video game, you can get off work, come home and get into a rpg group game which will be superior in story and satisfaction compared to a linear video game. Hence why online gaming has become so successful, you can do it when you want and there is always lots of peeps avail to join.

The drawback to these tools though is they require a good amount of money to create and maintain but will also be the only savior to future roleplaying becoming stronger and not dying off.

[Nether]

I agree with most of what you say except minor points that are bolded;

The wow factor use to be there, but i have found in alot in the latter books that it has become a whole lot less wow and more oh, thats just like x in book x with different name. Kind of like the OCCs there seems to just be a mass of redundant OCC that don~t really need to be there as a prior poster mentioned cause they can all be say, good vamp hunters, no need to show another OCC labeled differently but pretty much functions the same. same for alot of aspects in the books.

And the worst is it seems the last bunch of world books have turned into more of books of monsters and not really that much useful in them. I mean there is already tones of monsters in Rifts, give us substance of empires and how players can be a part of it.

Second point is as i just mentioned, many of the OCC~s are written to be played specifically in x way, and will not do this or that with no real good story reason. Again it is only a minor point and only touches on a small part of what you are saying.

I can understand your viewpoint. I suppose not everyone's going to have the same enthusiasm or perception of enthusiasm in different books. For example, I find books such as Atlantis, New West and Mystic Russia head and shoulders above some other books in terms of "Wow" factor. It's not just the subject matter, it's a difficult-to-describe vibe of "hey, check this out, play this!". It's a nebulous thing that can be tough to pin down.

OCC direction might be an entirely different topic on how much latitude there is for playing outside of expected type for a certain OCC. If we're referring to them as parts of a story, I think you have to look at how those OCC strictures influence your group's adventure.

Thanks for the good discussion!

Again completely agree.

Federation of Magic, Psyscape and Atlantis are by far my bibles of greatness.

Though Australia i really didn~t get into it nor see a good flavor. Should have said all rifts books vs say just world books.

but you do offer good discussion in friendly response, as i do love the Rifts world very much.

[TechnoGothic]

It doesn't matter if a revision is backward compatible or not. It doesn't invalidate the work that is already there. Look at Shadowrun. They are on 4 editions, major changes to statistics yet the background and useful material is still there.

Star Wars there are two editions in D6, three for d20, and I have see. GMs pull from any era, any supplement, and get it to work.

So if they do make a new version, I hope they do not revise all their books. Just cut it and move forward.

Boy your wrong

When the new system is not compatible, It does Invalidate the early work. WHY ?
You cannot use the earlier material with the new material now.
Alot of people would rather just play with their older, earlier books than buy new books if the new books are not compatible with the older materials.

Take a look a White Wolf. They risked their very Successful World of Darkness setting to be revamped into the New WoD. Sure they sold books. But i know ppl who work there, and the nWoD was only kept because Exalted was still selling so well. If Exalted's sales went down, they would have been in big trouble, and they were already talking in secret that if need be they could always bring oWoD back. WW is doing a Vampire 20th Ann.Edition this year for a reason. One reason is sales of nWoD is way down again and they even have said they are running out stuff to write about for nWoD and Exalted itself. BUT the writters still have ideas for oWoD it seems. Maybe they just want to get oWoD out of their system, before moving onto nWoD 2e, who knows. Then again they could be gearing to bring back oWoD since it outsells nWoD even in POD sales vs production sales...

Steamlined Systems are usually bland in the written materials for the system.
Setting should always come first and foremost. But then the system should work within the setting to capture the setting's mood and feel. If its dull or boring, you have a problem.

[Tiree]

Boy your wrong

I respectfully disagree. There are time when a game system needs to advance. Cyberpunk, Traveller, Shadowrun, Star Wars have all done it, several times.

Cut and run usually means forwarding the timeline by a few years. It also means publishing a book like the GMs Guide with some updated stats. A win for the new players not purchasing all the books a win for the publisher creating new material. A win for the publisher reducing their inventory of backstock. And they can still sell old books on a pod style basis.