Revamp of the rules for MDC and SDC

[Dunia]

I have, after GMing this game for some time (about a year or two - yes yes I am a newb compared to some), but I have found that the MD/MDC and SDC differences are harming the gameplay quite alot. I mean it is a good idea, but in reality, as soon as a player learns armor of ithan (cmany mages can get it at level1) then the game takes a whole new powerlevel, just as it does when all characters get MDC armour and MD weapons at creations. I mean, even the barwench, saloon bum and the russian villager gets both MD weapons and MDC suits. So even if all players all play russian villagers, i can throw in 20 mountain lions and 300 wolves and they will either ignore them, or wade through the carcasses of the animals while going from point A to point B.
Also, last thing I did with my players were to let them face a bunch of zombies in a ruined city, but as the sombies are SDC creatures and my players have MD/MDC wespons/armour/spells, it were not the horror thiing I wanted it to be, so if I am to play by the rules, then I must throw in MD aliens/godlins/demons/dragons in order to have a horror scenario (even if I let my players have no EQ the mages will clean most of the stuff up with their spells and the pyschics will do their job with their powers.
So, I sat down with my players and they too felt that MD/MDC items/spells are too powerful and though we like the setting, teh rules actually suck, in our eyes.

I have started to create a house rule-system and I would like to know what you guys think of it:

MD spells/weapons/armours will remain in the world, but I will allow people with SDC to be able to harm MDC protection, but with the following limitations:

* 1 MD/MDC = 100 SDC

* All SDC damage will be reduced by 25% or 50% (I have not decided yet) when attacking MD protection. (For example: I stand here with my automatic rifle and I attack a CS soldier in a MD armour. I roll for attack, and hit him, rolling my 5D6 SDC damage and I get 20, these 20 will be reduced to either 5 or 10 damage to his dead boy armour (Main body 80 MDC/800 SDC) and he will take 5/10 of those 800. Then he shoots back with his laser rifle and rolls 12 MD against me, I have only SDC armour and I die without passing Go (and I do not collect $200)

This means that if I gather all of the hunters in my village and we use our SDC weapons against this Dead boy, we might get him down after a while, but in return he will vaporize most of us with his weapon.

So, thoughts, constructive criticism and improvements of this idea is wanted/requested.

[Killer Cyborg]

I have actually found that MDC harms gameplay for the opposite reason. For most "standard" characters (who are fragile SDC beings), their durability is directly tied to their body armor.

For me, that's one of the things that makes the game WORK.
I get tired of games where people are expected to take constant physical damage to their bodies, then heal up again and get shot/stabbed up again in the next fight.
Having the focus on armor, combined with the notion that getting shot when you don't have armor on will actually KILL you, makes the game more plausible for me.

Plus, the fact that in several places throughout the books, it states that mages and psychics have a strong tendency not to wear artificial armor, preferring to rely on their "natural" abilities for protection...which seems rather counter-intuitive for survival.

Yeah... that part's stupid.

[Killer Cyborg]

I have, after GMing this game for some time (about a year or two - yes yes I am a newb compared to some), but I have found that the MD/MDC and SDC differences are harming the gameplay quite alot. I mean it is a good idea, but in reality, as soon as a player learns armor of ithan (cmany mages can get it at level1) then the game takes a whole new powerlevel, just as it does when all characters get MDC armour and MD weapons at creations. I mean, even the barwench, saloon bum and the russian villager gets both MD weapons and MDC suits. So even if all players all play russian villagers, i can throw in 20 mountain lions and 300 wolves and they will either ignore them, or wade through the carcasses of the animals while going from point A to point B.

The Barwench and Saloon Bum are PC classes that are more powerful than the norm.
Not every chick who works at a bar qualifies as a Barwench, and not every hobo who hangs out in a bar counts as a Saloon Bum.

(Also, those classes are pointless and lame.)

You might find this thread interesting:
Non-Adventuring OCCs

Also, last thing I did with my players were to let them face a bunch of zombies in a ruined city, but as the sombies are SDC creatures and my players have MD/MDC wespons/armour/spells, it were not the horror thiing I wanted it to be, so if I am to play by the rules, then I must throw in MD aliens/godlins/demons/dragons in order to have a horror scenario (even if I let my players have no EQ the mages will clean most of the stuff up with their spells and the pyschics will do their job with their powers.

Zombies are SDC creatures, but they're impervious to normal physical attack, including rail guns.
They take half damage from energy attacks, which will still drop them like flies as long as you're rolling more than 1-2 points of damage... but they get back up again in 48 hours if they're not properly disposed of.
And not everybody is going to know how to properly dispose of them; it'd require somebody who knows the spell to create them, or somebody who makes a couple of the appropriate Lore checks.
Also, they can wear MDC body armor.

If I wanted to run that adventure, I'd make up for their relative weakness of zombies compared to heavily armed PCs by having at least some of the zombies wearing body armor, and by making up in sheer numbers (typically the main problem with zombies in any genre).
So the PCs run into zombies, and they kill a bunch of zombies. The ones with no armor or SDC armor will drop pretty easily, and the ones in MDC armor will take longer.
Then more zombies show up.
The PCs kill them too.
Then more zombies show up.
The PCs kill them too, and notice that they're starting to run low on ammo.
Then more zombies show up.
The PCs have a tougher time, as they're trying to conserve ammo because they're starting to understand that this is a long-term battle.
Then more zombies show up.
And so on.

Have some boss zombies (maybe a few in power armor) mixed in with the hordes in order to make things more interesting, and/or other creatures leading the zombies or mixed in with them. Break up the battles with non-combat action. Etc. etc.
You could make a pretty good adventure out of it.


Alternatively, you might be more interested in reading up on Necromancy.
A powerful necromancer with some time on his hands can make Animated Dead with the following stats:
Speed 14
PS 20 (2d6+5 SDC per attack)
4 attacks per melee
144 MDC (288 MDC by some counts)
Bone Armor for an additional 80 MDC

They'd still only inflict SDC from their attacks, of course, but in sufficient numbers they could swarm opponents and slowly pull the victims' armor off. Or simply hold the victims immobile until the victims die from some other means (suffocation, starvation, another creature, the necromancer, etc).
Or just give them all vibro-blades or some other cheap weapon (xiticix weapons, for example).

[Killer Cyborg]

I have actually found that MDC harms gameplay for the opposite reason. For most "standard" characters (who are fragile SDC beings), their durability is directly tied to their body armor.

For me, that's one of the things that makes the game WORK.
I get tired of games where people are expected to take constant physical damage to their bodies, then heal up again and get shot/stabbed up again in the next fight.
Having the focus on armor, combined with the notion that getting shot when you don't have armor on will actually KILL you, makes the game more plausible for me.

Well, take for instance Shadowrun, where a character might pull a 50-Cent and get shot a whole ****load of times and live, it's actually much more likely to be killed by one or two shots if you're caught without armor. The same idea applies here. If your armor is gone, then you're not completely screwed and actually have a chance to get away and not be vaporized. The danger is still very much there, but survival doesn't rely almost solely on blind luck if for some reason you don't have the gear to keep fighting.

Even in Rifts you're not necessarily completely screwed.
Mages without armor could still be impervious to energy attacks. Bursters could be impervious to fire/plasma. And so on.
Even without that, it's possible for a normal human to have over 100 SDC, HP, and -HP combined, meaning that they have a chance to survive a single point of mega-damage.
Juicers and other enhanced humans can survive more, possibly as much as 4-5 MD.
Characters with cyber-armor under their normal armor have a chance to survive MD attacks as well.

But the main thing is, why is your armor gone?
Once your armor IS gone, you may have to rely on luck, but getting to the point where your armor's gone means that you let yourself get shot up a bunch, and odds are that THAT wasn't just bad luck.
You made some mistakes, enough to put yourself into a position where you might well die.

Not to mention that it's perfectly possible to run Rifts without Mega-Damage without changing the rules.
Just have a low-powered campaign without MD gear or creatures in it.
Have the adventure take place in a city where MD gear is banned.
Have it take place out in the wilderness, in an area where the only threats are SDC level threats.
Rifts is what you make it.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i allows thought that MDC changes to SDC in SDC enviroment is rather weak,mainly because of robotech, a non-magical sdc/mdc world

[keir451]

A powerful necromancer with some time on his hands can make Animated Dead with the following stats:
Speed 14
PS 20 (2d6+5 SDC per attack)
4 attacks per melee
144 MDC (288 MDC by some counts)
Bone Armor for an additional 80 MDC

Ok so we've got a slow, moderately strong, moderately armored, undead minion with zero intelligence versus a NG Samson w/240 MDC, 150 mph running speed and weapons that can do 1d6x10 MD ea.. It's pilot is "Gears" a Nema Field Engineer(normal human, no mods), w/ IQ: 22, PS: 22, PP: 19, Spd: 27, 6 attacks (4 +PA bonuses and Boxing) his back up weapon is a cabled (attached to power plant) NG-P7 Particle beam Rifle, or NG-E12 Plasma Ejector. Other options may include Naruni weaponry, like the NE-700 Plasma Gatling Gun, or the Wilks 1000 Laser Pulse Cannon (3d4x10 MDC). Undead Zombie goes *POOF*!! And Necro dude is suddenly sweating in his boots as Gear levels his NEXT attack at HIM!

[Killer Cyborg]

A powerful necromancer with some time on his hands can make Animated Dead with the following stats:
Speed 14
PS 20 (2d6+5 SDC per attack)
4 attacks per melee
144 MDC (288 MDC by some counts)
Bone Armor for an additional 80 MDC

Ok so we've got a slow, moderately strong, moderately armored, undead minion with zero intelligence versus a NG Samson....

Really?
That's what you expect from a good zombie adventure? Guys in POWER ARMOR going up against zombies?
Whatever floats your boat.
Seems like shooting fish in a barrel to me, though. I prefer a situation where the enemy has chance of winning.

[Killer Cyborg]

Considering the modern firearm hasn't changed a whole lot from the first cartridge round that released in 1854 it's silly to conceive that these weapons that will be created in the next 80 to 90 years are going to be 100 times more powerful.

Not really. For the past few hundred years we haven't had much need for more powerful firearms.
You can kill somebody with a .38 if you need to, or a .60- either way, it puts a hole in them.
As armor has increased, the power of guns and ammunition has also increased to try to compensate, but only to the extent that there is need.
Most people don't need AP rounds, so AP rounds aren't standard.

But that could change if a new standard was developed, one where we discovered how to make super-tough materials that could take a lot more damage than conventional weapons can dish out.
The tougher armor is, the tougher our weapons will have to be.

[keir451]

A powerful necromancer with some time on his hands can make Animated Dead with the following stats:
Speed 14
PS 20 (2d6+5 SDC per attack)
4 attacks per melee
144 MDC (288 MDC by some counts)
Bone Armor for an additional 80 MDC

Ok so we've got a slow, moderately strong, moderately armored, undead minion with zero intelligence versus a NG Samson....

Really?
That's what you expect from a good zombie adventure? Guys in POWER ARMOR going up against zombies?
Whatever floats your boat.
Seems like shooting fish in a barrel to me, though. I prefer a situation where the enemy has chance of winning.

Yep, 'cause IMO Zombies NEVER deserve a chance at surviving as they're just rotting bags of flesh. Also my players NEVER game w/out using PA as they don't tolerate this kind of situation. I learned my lesson about Zombie hordes years ago, intelligent players DON'T fight them they just WIPE THEM OUT as my idea of a GOOD Zombie adventure is, "I've left them in pieces rotting on the ground (along w/the Necro who summoned them)." Then there's the fact that some of my players reaction to a "the world is ending/Zombie apocalypse" situation is world ending suicide, like detonating all of Chi-towns fusion reactors and taking half the continent with them!

[Killer Cyborg]

I do the following:

1 M.D.C. = 10 S.D.C.

By this reasoning... if a weapon can do at least 10 S.D.C. points of damage, it can inflict 1 M.D.C. of damage to an M.D.C. structure or creature. As that 1 M.D.C. also does 10 S.D.C. it gives a slightly better chance and odds of surviving getting hit. Not much. But some.

And it means that a strong human can punch a tank to death with his bare hands.

And where I'm looking at wildlife.... wolves, bears, big cats, ect can better survive and thrive in the wilds and still be a feature instead of being overrun by all the M.D.C. creatures coming through the Rifts, even if more marginally.

viewtopic.php?p=1936186#p1936186

This has come up before.

The problem is that you (and many other people) have a number of misperceptions about the game world:
1. That MDC is more common than it actually is.
2. That MDC creatures kill more often than they do.
3. That SDC creatures are entirely defenseless against MDC threats.

Here are some threads for you to browse through:
viewtopic.php?p=1047911
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=54483
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=76601
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42824
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=41516

Here is a post I made a while back on the subject:
viewtopic.php?p=1894005#p1894005

Well in the last 6 to 9 months of playing our campaign I think S.D.C. damage came into play less than a dozen times and as for MDC threats are, for most people, rare. I would have to say your vision of the Rifts must be way safer than the world books lead me to believe. With millions of Xiticixs to the north, a few million Spulgorth minions on Atlantis, Dinosaurs in south west and east, evil Mystic Knights around the Marylands, Minions of Lord of the Deep in the oceans, Archie's bots can show up anywhere, plus vampires, demons, golems, dragons, ghosts, elementals, cyborgs, juicers, Coalition troops, grumpy Indians, trolls and all the monsters from the random rifts that can open anywhere, sure it's not that uncommon for the common folk to run into trouble. The strong pick on the weak because it's not as much fun when they can possibly loss.

Yup.
There's all sorts of stuff out there that wants to kill you.
It's just that in most places it's not a daily, weekly, or monthly occurrence.
Some places, not even yearly.

Read the original Rifts book.
"The average person is not likely to have psionics nor mega-damage weapons and armor. He is not a master of magic nor holder of great truths. He is one of the ordinary folk who live and struggle with the day to day hardships of life."

"The entire world is mostly wilderness with scattered little towns, villages, and outposts. Cities are fairly uncommon, generally speaking. The environment, regardless of the level of technology or magic, is feudal-like, with kingdoms rather than cities, states, provinces, or nations as thought of in the 20th century.
The majority of these feudal kingdoms are ruled by, or appoint, or employ, a protector of group of protectors, much like the knights of old. The protector(s) is always a powerful warrior, frequently armed with power armor or giant robot vehicles. Men of arms seem to be the norm among these champions, but they can be mages, psychic, mutants, and even monsters."

The worldbooks are indeed chock full of MDC stuff, but there's a good reason for that:
RAG, 105
"Barbarians and wilderness people are the average folks of Rifts North America. We don't talk about them much because their lives are pretty grim and not particularly exotic. They are not the stuff of high adventure, so instead we tend to focus on the big cities, kingdoms and Coalition States. However, such bastions of civilization are, however, the true rarity."

The writers write about the stuff that is exciting and exotic, and that's not normal people doing normal things.
They don't write a World Book about the 100 square mile patch of Wisconsin where nothing really happens; they write about the most dangerous or potentially exciting places of the planet.

Read RUE.
P. 19, from Erin Tarn:
"I have had city folk question how it can be with all the fabled towns, tribes, clans, D-Bees and monsters they hear about, that one doesn't stumble over one hiding behind every tree. It doesn't work that way. The wildlife hides from intruders like us, the innocent animals run to avoid becoming hunted, and the predators watch from a nervous distance at least until they are ready to strike. People hear there may be hundred, thousands, even tens of thousands of a particular species, but they forget that number is spread across vast expanses of land, or that perhaps as few as one or two or a dozen may live in any given area. A predator like a mountain lion, for example, will consider one particular area that might cover 100 or 200 square miles as its domain or hunting ground and only it and its made prowl it (along with other species of predators). That's a large area that city dwellers can't adequately picture, and such a range is tiny compared to the sweeping wilderness that covers our land."

There are bobcats living in my neck of the woods in real life, but I've lived here over thirty years and have only seen a bobcat ONCE.

Just because there's stuff out there doesn't mean that it's a common occurrence.
Just because there are certain areas where certain Mega-Damage threats are common does not mean that they're common everywhere.
Of course you're going to find dinosaurs in the Dinosaur Swamps; it's an extraordinarily dangerous place, even for Rifts Earth.
Of course you're going to find Splugorth minions in Atlantis; it's an extraordinarily dangerous place, even for Rifts Earth.
Of course you're going to find Xiticix in Xiticix territory; it's an extraordinarily dangerous place, even for Rifts Earth.

And yes, you can run into evil bots, demons, monsters, mutants, bandits, etc. pretty much anywhere in North America.... but you can also NOT run into them.

Of course, the books don't focus on NOT running into them, because that's generally not a very fun adventure.

[Noon]

* All SDC damage will be reduced by 25% or 50% (I have not decided yet) when attacking MD protection. (For example: I stand here with my automatic rifle and I attack a CS soldier in a MD armour. I roll for attack, and hit him, rolling my 5D6 SDC damage and I get 20, these 20 will be reduced to either 5 or 10 damage to his dead boy armour (Main body 80 MDC/800 SDC) and he will take 5/10 of those 800. Then he shoots back with his laser rifle and rolls 12 MD against me, I have only SDC armour and I die without passing Go (and I do not collect $200)

This means that if I gather all of the hunters in my village and we use our SDC weapons against this Dead boy, we might get him down after a while, but in return he will vaporize most of us with his weapon.

Check out explosive ammo in rifts mercenaries. An uzi (emptying the clip of explosive ammo) does 1D4 MD. The ammo is 2 credits a bullet, so not insanely expensive.

I think that covers what your talking about here without a rule change (ie, if you first wanna try something without changing rules)

[Noon]

Before we get to 'punching a tank to death', can we all remember an old fashioned bulkhead is SDC. Or the iron bars of an old style jail. Jeez, why don't the prisoners punch their way through the bars?

The MDC version isn't inventing any NEW inconsistancy.

[Killer Cyborg]

Before we get to 'punching a tank to death', can we all remember an old fashioned bulkhead is SDC. Or the iron bars of an old style jail. Jeez, why don't the prisoners punch their way through the bars?

Because of the PV.

[Killer Cyborg]

I do the following:

1 M.D.C. = 10 S.D.C.

By this reasoning... if a weapon can do at least 10 S.D.C. points of damage, it can inflict 1 M.D.C. of damage to an M.D.C. structure or creature. As that 1 M.D.C. also does 10 S.D.C. it gives a slightly better chance and odds of surviving getting hit. Not much. But some.

And it means that a strong human can punch a tank to death with his bare hands.

Assuming said strong man is the Hulk or Superman, I would expect that, but given most can only deal 1d6 for damage. Yes I know there's bonuses from a high P.S. It moves to the next question, why is he punching a tank to death? Or are we talking the potential average Joe of Rifts Earth?

1d4+PS damage bonus, which can go as high as 30 for a normal human.
The average person isn't going to have much of a PS bonus, but your above average person is.
Your average juicer is.
Your average Borg is.
Your average Bot is.

And your average adventurer is likely to have some kind of PS bonus as well, if it'll help them inflict mega-damage.

Which is why I go for the 10 S.D.C. to 1 M.D.C. so when it does come up. The average Joe or Deer, Rabbit, Wolf, Bear, Tiger, Elephant... ect.... just might have a chance to fight back and survive or get away.

They already DO have a chance to survive or get away.
Which I just pointed out at great length.
For a rabbit, it doesn't matter if it's being chased by a dog or by a MDC dog; either way the rabbit's dead if it's bit.

And a 1:10 ratio doesn't change their ability to fight back for anything short of a bear.
A deer, rabbit, or wolf still isn't going to deal the 10+ damage necessary to hurt a MDC critter.
Even on the bear level of things, I don't know how often they'd exceed the threshold and be able to inflict 1 MD.

[Noon]

i can throw in 20 mountain lions and 300 wolves and they will either ignore them

An idea to consider is that it's a bit short sighted that apparently only humans gain psionic powers. Animals could have them too. It doesn't seem to nulify the main premises of rifts.

[Nether]

Ya the rule inconsistency is that there isn~t a damage threshold value to armor and sturctures.

The reason no one punches a tank to death is because literally, you would never dent nor damage it ever, but you would get a bloody pulp of a hand for the effort. The game does not represent this. It would be easy with a damage threshold, say you need to do x amount of damage to even hurt that tank ; structure or give them damage reduction. To me this should have been common sense of a rule put in at get go but the closest they came was AR which fails as well, because it means you can still punch a AR structure to death, though it will take a while but eventually you could. Also DR could also indicate if you take damage as well for your effort, as in you didn~t beat the basic DR, then ya, your hurting yourself.

As for zombies with 100+ - 200+, you telling me if a gm put up a horde of those guys in waves against you and a necromancer or few, that it wouldn~t be a challenging scenario:

Even in your flying samson, there would be so many md weapon shots at you that it would cause you serious damage in the longrun. Say take 10 of those guys just for you, not including that everyone else has thier own issues, 10 shots with say 2d6 md rifle is going to eat your attacks up fast, and i don~t believe you had autododge listed, so ya it wouldn~t take long. As a gm i wouldn~t have the necros just outfitting the zombies with pidly 2d6 md guns either, there would be the odd grenade launcher, mini missile launcher and more like 3-4d6 weapons shooting at you.

To solve the OP~s issue here without having to need a crap load of house rules, is just use more md weapons and armor. I make md much more of a standard in the game world vs not and i have less issues for it, and players are always more engaged. I can still use sdc and occasionally do, but you need to control those encounters well to keep it ^fair^

[glitterboy2098]

i've never had an issue with SDC in an MDC enviroment.

the rule i used was a common one before RUE made it official. 100SDC in a single attack inflicts MDC. so a .50cal MG firing a short or long burst can do MDC. a .30cal MG firing long bursts can do MDC (this includes things like the M-60). an SDC LAW rocket or RPG-7 can do MDC. and so on. the addition of low tech, high calibre armor pericing weapons in Dinosaur swamp (that can do MD with simple AP ammo) makes things even easier.

sending SDC opponents against characters with MDC gear is just a matter of timing. enforce the fact they can't wear armor all the time and that putting armor on takes time. a wolf attack in the middle of the night is horrifying. even if they leave an MDC suited sentry, most of the rest are going to be out of armor. and a 100+ pound wolf is still going to be able to knock down that MDC armor sentry, possibly even taking him out of the fight for a few melees as he struggles the get back up. doesn't matter if the wolf in question can actually harm his armor or not. and MDC weapons aren't always a sure fire thing. yes, they'll kill the wolf quick...if they hit. a wolf would be moving around alot, able to dodge, running into and out of cover... all things that make hitting it harder to do.
and thats just a normal wolf, based on their real world hunting tactics. toss in a whole pack, or a few "mutant wolfs" just to make things nasty..

[TechnoGothic]

Before we get to 'punching a tank to death', can we all remember an old fashioned bulkhead is SDC. Or the iron bars of an old style jail. Jeez, why don't the prisoners punch their way through the bars?

Because of the PV.

PV makes SDC setting work well. Too bad ppl ignore it or forget about PV so often.

[Dunia]

What is PV?

[Dunia]

sending SDC opponents against characters with MDC gear is just a matter of timing. enforce the fact they can't wear armor all the time and that putting armor on takes time.

Then you can have a Mystic with sixth sense and armor of Ithan. he will not need an armour that much.

The mystic is sitting in the forest and a wolf is sneaking up at him, GM says ''Your spider sense is tingling'' and the next thing, the mystic is covered in MDC protection , also he has time to warn the entire group who will have 15-60 seconds to prepare.

[sagajr]

What is PV?

Penetration Value. Described in the Compendium of Contemporary Weapons book along with the Defense(deflect?) Value (IIRC).


I simply revrite the rules of the damage capacity. First, I rename the Mega damage to massive damage (for me, mega means million not a mere 100 times more), than "recalibrate" the damage ratio. 1 point of massive damage cause 1 point of HP damage and 2 points of SDC damage to a SDC creature or material and ignores all types of AR.
MDC creatures and materials can be damaged by S(tandard)DC weapons but these weapons cause only half of its minimal damage (ie. an attack that normally do 1D6x10 SD cause only 5 points of damage to an MDC target) and all MDC targets have natural AR (12 + P.E. bonus for creatures and 15 to 20 for vehicles, buildings, tech devices etc., depending on the quality of the material).

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Before we get to 'punching a tank to death', can we all remember an old fashioned bulkhead is SDC. Or the iron bars of an old style jail. Jeez, why don't the prisoners punch their way through the bars?

Because of the PV.

PV makes SDC setting work well. Too bad ppl ignore it or forget about PV so often.

wow imagine what you can learn if you read

[keir451]

I generally leave the MDC intact, but drop the SDC in favor of good old fashioned Hit points, so 100 HP = 1 MDC.

[glitterboy2098]

sending SDC opponents against characters with MDC gear is just a matter of timing. enforce the fact they can't wear armor all the time and that putting armor on takes time.

Then you can have a Mystic with sixth sense and armor of Ithan. he will not need an armour that much.

The mystic is sitting in the forest and a wolf is sneaking up at him, GM says ''Your spider sense is tingling'' and the next thing, the mystic is covered in MDC protection , also he has time to warn the entire group who will have 15-60 seconds to prepare.

except that by canon, sixth sense only works on threats within 60ft of the person. a wolf can cross that 60ft in a few seconds, which means they have less than a melee of warning. and if the wolf gets a higher inititive, it can attack the mystic first, preventing him from getting spells off. (remember, wolves are capable of sensing psionics and magic, and are smart enough to know which opponents are going to be the bigger threat and thus the first to take out) not to mention that sixth sense doesn't tell you what the threat is. it's just a "hey, something bad is gonna happen" sense. so they might be expecting something totally different, and get caught flatfooted.
if the group has a natural MDC creature, there is some issue, but i reiterate my bit earlier about knockdowns and such.
and a large wolfpack can break up the cohesiveness of a group by breaking things down into individual battles. not to mention that a wolf, or wolves, charging in to attack deserves a horror factor due to the deep seated psychological fear people tend to have of charging predators.
no, the issue isn't that wolves and such are SDC, it's (IMO) that people tend to treat wild animals in the game as machines and armies, not animals. they ignore issues of animal tactics, don't play up the animals strengths, forget rules that help balance the encounters, and so on. never intentionally mind you, but people tend to have mental blindspots, which can have interesting results.

[drewkitty ~..~]

* 1 MD/MDC = 100 SDC

this should read differently
1MD equivalent to --> 100 SD/ND
and
1MDC equivalent to -->100 SDC

'ND' being 'Normal Damage'

[Killer Cyborg]

i can throw in 20 mountain lions and 300 wolves and they will either ignore them

An idea to consider is that it's a bit short sighted that apparently only humans gain psionic powers. Animals could have them too. It doesn't seem to nulify the main premises of rifts.

Actually, all dogs, cats, and horses have psychic powers that kick in automatically.
Officially, it's only for animals that are closest to humans (socially, not genetically), but there's no reason why you couldn't house-rule that wild animals have the same benefits.

[Killer Cyborg]

sending SDC opponents against characters with MDC gear is just a matter of timing. enforce the fact they can't wear armor all the time and that putting armor on takes time.

Then you can have a Mystic with sixth sense and armor of Ithan. he will not need an armour that much.

The mystic is sitting in the forest and a wolf is sneaking up at him, GM says ''Your spider sense is tingling'' and the next thing, the mystic is covered in MDC protection , also he has time to warn the entire group who will have 15-60 seconds to prepare.

except that by canon, sixth sense only works on threats within 60ft of the person. a wolf can cross that 60ft in a few seconds, which means they have less than a melee of warning. and if the wolf gets a higher inititive, it can attack the mystic first, preventing him from getting spells off. (remember, wolves are capable of sensing psionics and magic, and are smart enough to know which opponents are going to be the bigger threat and thus the first to take out) not to mention that sixth sense doesn't tell you what the threat is. it's just a "hey, something bad is gonna happen" sense. so they might be expecting something totally different, and get caught flatfooted.

Or, replace "wolf" with "crocadile," and the mage might get his spell off, but still end up getting drowned in the river before he can alert his comrades.

no, the issue isn't that wolves and such are SDC, it's (IMO) that people tend to treat wild animals in the game as machines and armies, not animals. they ignore issues of animal tactics, don't play up the animals strengths, forget rules that help balance the encounters, and so on. never intentionally mind you, but people tend to have mental blindspots, which can have interesting results.

Word.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't mess with the system at all. MDC and SDC works just fine especially if you are using the PV rules. SDC projectile weapons should never be able to harm MDC structures. Someone mentioned the 50 caliber machine gun inflicted enough SDC to do MD, it doesn't even work against some SDC structures let alone MDC ones. I own a 50 caliber precision rifle and even firing 671 grain tungsten penetraters there are regular objects that it won't go through, a thick enough piece of cold rolled steel for instance or advanced armor plate. My rifle will blow through the best modern body armor even with a front and back trauma plate Class IV + but it won't hurt a Bradley fighting vehicle or an Abrahms, although I might be able to destroy a track or fly wheel. My point is there are SDC weapons that can't hurt SDC structures so they sure aren't going to hurt MDC ones.

What kind of rifle specifically to you own, if you don't mind me asking?

[glitterboy2098]

sending SDC opponents against characters with MDC gear is just a matter of timing. enforce the fact they can't wear armor all the time and that putting armor on takes time.

Then you can have a Mystic with sixth sense and armor of Ithan. he will not need an armour that much.

The mystic is sitting in the forest and a wolf is sneaking up at him, GM says ''Your spider sense is tingling'' and the next thing, the mystic is covered in MDC protection , also he has time to warn the entire group who will have 15-60 seconds to prepare.

except that by canon, sixth sense only works on threats within 60ft of the person. a wolf can cross that 60ft in a few seconds, which means they have less than a melee of warning. and if the wolf gets a higher inititive, it can attack the mystic first, preventing him from getting spells off. (remember, wolves are capable of sensing psionics and magic, and are smart enough to know which opponents are going to be the bigger threat and thus the first to take out) not to mention that sixth sense doesn't tell you what the threat is. it's just a "hey, something bad is gonna happen" sense. so they might be expecting something totally different, and get caught flatfooted.

Or, replace "wolf" with "crocadile," and the mage might get his spell off, but still end up getting drowned in the river before he can alert his comrades.

not to mention that a Mystic, which has magic spells as a type of innate ability, might not have Armor of ithan or other protective spell. even normal spell casters, which learn their spells, might not have AoI or similar.

and the wording on sixth sense is ambigious enough that a wolf might not trigger it for aq guy in armor..even though said wolf could still knock him down, and pin him to the ground while it tries to ineffectually bite him.


the key is to tailor your encounters to the group. if your group includes a spell casters or psychics with precognative or defensive spells/powers, figure out how to work around it. have the animals attack while said characters are busy with other things (like say, bathing or using the toliet, or out scouting ahead, etc). maybe toss in some enviromental factors (like rain, fog, snow, sand, etc) that would give the animal some cover or which would effect the parties aim/abilities. and so on.


SDC animals aren't normally more than a nusciance encounter. and if your going to use them for a big climax in the story, you just have to be creative. you can't just toss 300 wolves at your players and expect it to be an epic event. not the least of reasons is that 300 wolves in one place is so unbeleivable it's absurd. (wolf packs rarely get over 20 members.) but if you love the idea of an "army" of wolves, you just have to be creative. why is this pack so big? maybe there is a person controlling them? if so, what? mutant "psi-wolf"? werewolf? and so on. toss a few clues the players way about this "joker in the deck" and let it play a role. like a werewolf. the easiest way to fight a werewolf if your not psychic or a spellcaster is to make some silver bulelts for your SDC guns...which means your going ot be carrying those into battle, not the MDC stuff. and a werewolf can hurt MDC armor..if you make it a full werewolf pack, it gets even scarier, since thats a dozen or so creatures that are nigh invulnerable and able to rip tanks apart.. with a bunch of "meat sheilds" to distract the enemy and maybe pin them down.

[Dunia]

Thank you guys, I have found a way that I like now from what you have said.

Even if i still dislike the MDC and the way that PB have made it so that you must have MD weapons/MDC armor, powers or spells to survive. In the books I have, I have only seens 1 creature that is not MDC and that si vampires. So well, maybe I am not a die-hard PB fan and think that Kevin has made the ultimate system. I think that I like some of his setting, but in the end, he did one big error, he had to make stuff more powerful, more resilant to damage from players and too powerful enemies for players to fight. He forgot that things can be fun without new uber-powerful spells, powers, monsters, robot vehicles, combat euipment and so on.

Myself I am building a whole new RIFTS world, using some of what KS have created, but with a system that I like and with a tech level and a world history that use logical buildup and realistical military tactics & strategy. It is sad to see a person writing about a military campaign and a war, and it is so clear that this person have no sense at all for military campaigns and logistical support.

Anyway, thank you for input.

[Nether]

sending SDC opponents against characters with MDC gear is just a matter of timing. enforce the fact they can't wear armor all the time and that putting armor on takes time.

Then you can have a Mystic with sixth sense and armor of Ithan. he will not need an armour that much.

The mystic is sitting in the forest and a wolf is sneaking up at him, GM says ''Your spider sense is tingling'' and the next thing, the mystic is covered in MDC protection , also he has time to warn the entire group who will have 15-60 seconds to prepare.

except that by canon, sixth sense only works on threats within 60ft of the person. a wolf can cross that 60ft in a few seconds, which means they have less than a melee of warning. and if the wolf gets a higher inititive, it can attack the mystic first, preventing him from getting spells off. (remember, wolves are capable of sensing psionics and magic, and are smart enough to know which opponents are going to be the bigger threat and thus the first to take out) not to mention that sixth sense doesn't tell you what the threat is. it's just a "hey, something bad is gonna happen" sense. so they might be expecting something totally different, and get caught flatfooted.
if the group has a natural MDC creature, there is some issue, but i reiterate my bit earlier about knockdowns and such.
and a large wolfpack can break up the cohesiveness of a group by breaking things down into individual battles. not to mention that a wolf, or wolves, charging in to attack deserves a horror factor due to the deep seated psychological fear people tend to have of charging predators.
no, the issue isn't that wolves and such are SDC, it's (IMO) that people tend to treat wild animals in the game as machines and armies, not animals. they ignore issues of animal tactics, don't play up the animals strengths, forget rules that help balance the encounters, and so on. never intentionally mind you, but people tend to have mental blindspots, which can have interesting results.

I think you are giving faaaaarrrrr to much credit to wolves in a Rifts setting against players. Player characters being also above a norm, and we have had plenty of people in rl that have fended off wolf attacks and lives with nothing more than their hands. Wearing MD body armor of even low level would let a group cake walk attacking wolves, even a huge amount of them. Also the horror factor isn't there because the players aren't joe dude who lived in a city all his life and never seen a wild animal, let alone players who get in scuffles all the time, have weapons and armor vastly superior to anything those wolves could do anything against and its a non issue.

Also alot of gm's give flak to players that sleep in armor and want to give them penalties ext, which i think is complete crap. Those armors are comfortable to wear mostly, and when your travelling thru the Rifts world, your an idiot if you do sleep without it in the wild.

[Tiree]

I just put a character vs 2 Hell Hounds - vicious nasties. Did around 100md in two rounds, and that was only half their actions.

But I found that MDC is only problematic if the GM let's it. If you over emphasize the importance of sdc vs mdc. It works, just like Robotech. It does make Mages more on par or even better from their non-magical counterparts. It also makes high SDC characters and natural MDC characters more powerful.

[glitterboy2098]

I think you are giving faaaaarrrrr to much credit to wolves in a Rifts setting against players. Player characters being also above a norm, and we have had plenty of people in rl that have fended off wolf attacks and lives with nothing more than their hands.

really? then why is it that there have been no recorded wolf attacks in modern history? plenty of unconfirmed reports though. and plenty of tall tales. we know they'll do it, given historical records, but those usually only record when large groups of people went after the wolves later..and after many injuries were killed. this often being trained soldiers in body armor with good weapons too.

but there have been plenty of people attacked by lions, tigers, etc and lived. common theme? "scared ****" despite many of them having guns, vehicles, and often being skilled as hunters.

Wearing MD body armor of even low level would let a group cake walk attacking wolves, even a huge amount of them.

not really. wolves don't just charge up and attack. they run run through herds to seperate out prey, they run it down, they knock it down by jumping onto it. they employ cover and distracton tactics when hunting, and they co-ordinate with their pack members.

all things comparable to what military units do. wolves are smart, and they'd fight smart too.

Also the horror factor isn't there because the players aren't joe dude who lived in a city all his life and never seen a wild animal, let alone players who get in scuffles all the time, have weapons and armor vastly superior to anything those wolves could do anything against and its a non issue.

see above point about skilled hunters with the right tools still being scared. the fear response to a predator is a deep wired one, and usually triggers regardless of what your concious mind beleives about it's safety or preparedness.

Also alot of gm's give flak to players that sleep in armor and want to give them penalties ext, which i think is complete crap. Those armors are comfortable to wear mostly, and when your travelling thru the Rifts world, your an idiot if you do sleep without it in the wild.

EBA is like wearing a space suit. or a suit of medieval armor. astronauts hate space suits because they're uncomfortable (even modern ones). military troops hate wearing their protective vests for long peroids, even though they're more comfortable than space suits. but they become uncomfortable the longer you wear them. medieval knights had the same problem, despite their armor being fairly easy to wear.

armor is extra weight, it doesn't breathe, it hindres movement, sleeping in it is like sleeping on hard ground with little body support...and thats just real life stuff. rifts EBA is heavier, more solid, envorimentally sealed (ask soldiers how they like wearing MOPP suits or their gasmasks for long peroids. answer, they hate it), and while supposadly temprature controlled, is going to chafe pretty quick due to sweat and body heat.

you'd have to be a masochist to want to wer them for long peroids of time.

[Tiree]

(ask soldiers how they like wearing MOPP suits or their gas-masks for long periods. answer, they hate it), and while supposedly temperature controlled, is going to chafe pretty quick due to sweat and body heat.

you'd have to be a masochist to want to wer them for long periods of time.

I am going to qualify this:

I have, and can wear a MOPP suit for extended period of time. In fact, I have worn a lot more on top of said MOPP Suit. This was due to the extreme cold temperatures I was dealing with.

Now that said - in the summer and in the desert, I couldn't shed that damn suit fast enough. If it was like the EBA armors in the book, it would probably be like a second skin. But due to the bulkiness, I doubt that I would sleep in it for more than a day or so.

[Noon]

I think the people who are saying it works should ask themselves did it work by itself because of the rule set, or instead of it working by itself, did they get it to work despite the ruleset?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

if a player is wearing the armor 24/7 , i think its more a problem with the GM then the ruleset

[Noon]

if a player is wearing the armor 24/7 , i think its more a problem with the GM then the ruleset

Or they are a borg. Or a dragon. Or...

But skipping that argument, what, do the players ALL take off their armour at once? And if they do, do they galavant around outside or stay inside a vehicle or building during that time? ALL players are chaotic stupid?

Seriously, the 'You can't wear your armour all the time' argument is old and tired. It doesn't cut it.

Really, for mundane animals to become a threat (a threat as in they'll actually scratch up armour) you need to equip them with psionics or spell like abilities - either damaging ones or damaging and defensive ones. Or somehow they have railguns bolted to their backs*.

* not.

[Killer Cyborg]

Seriously, the 'You can't wear your armour all the time' argument is old and tired. It doesn't cut it.

How do you figure?

Really, for mundane animals to become a threat (a threat as in they'll actually scratch up armour) you need to equip them with psionics or spell like abilities - either damaging ones or damaging and defensive ones. Or somehow they have railguns bolted to their backs*.

* not.

Why is your threshold for "a threat" "scratching the armor" instead of "Killing the person?"
As I've mentioned, there are animals out there that can kill you whether you have armor on or not.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

if a player is wearing the armor 24/7 , i think its more a problem with the GM then the ruleset

Or they are a borg. Or a dragon. Or...

But skipping that argument, what, do the players ALL take off their armour at once? And if they do, do they galavant around outside or stay inside a vehicle or building during that time? ALL players are chaotic stupid?

Seriously, the 'You can't wear your armour all the time' argument is old and tired. It doesn't cut it.

Really, for mundane animals to become a threat (a threat as in they'll actually scratch up armour) you need to equip them with psionics or spell like abilities - either damaging ones or damaging and defensive ones. Or somehow they have railguns bolted to their backs*.

* not.

that is why i use thing like body lice , foot fungus, jock itch and other fun things people can got if they dont clean themselves personal favorite is monkey butt

[talmor]

Penetration Value. Described in the Compendium of Contemporary Weapons book along with the Defense(deflect?) Value (IIRC).


I simply revrite the rules of the damage capacity. First, I rename the Mega damage to massive damage (for me, mega means million not a mere 100 times more), than "recalibrate" the damage ratio. 1 point of massive damage cause 1 point of HP damage and 2 points of SDC damage to a SDC creature or material and ignores all types of AR.
MDC creatures and materials can be damaged by S(tandard)DC weapons but these weapons cause only half of its minimal damage (ie. an attack that normally do 1D6x10 SD cause only 5 points of damage to an MDC target) and all MDC targets have natural AR (12 + P.E. bonus for creatures and 15 to 20 for vehicles, buildings, tech devices etc., depending on the quality of the material).

That's...actually very elegant. Is the Compendium still in print? I'd like to read more about how PV works.

My own half-formed "fix" involves actually creating more scales.

Normal (SDC)
MDC Infantry
Power Armor
Robot (Giant Robots, not Skelebots, which are Power Armor level)
Massive--giant ships, troop carriers, etc.

Each tier would have a 10 point modifier against the next. So, if a normal rifle (2d6 damage) attacked a guy wearing MDC Body Armor, the MDC would get a 10 point DR against the rifle. If he does 12, MDC guys takes 2. If he does 8, MDC takes none. MDC guys fired back with his MDC infantry laser. Normally, this does 2d6, but against a normal guy, he does 2d6+10 damage--nasty, but not instadeath.

Of course, against "power armor" tier, the normal guy is ever worse off. The PA has +100 DR against him, and does damage +100--getting hit with a rail gun means instadeath if your not a juicer or crazy (which I think might be in the Infantry scale by default). However, against infantry, the PA only gets the +10. It keeps going, a factor of 10 per level, till the CS destoryer is at a +10,000 bonus against a normal person.

The flip aside, of course, is that it's harder to HIT people of a lower tier. -5 per level. So, the PA guy using a rail gun against a normal dude is -10. The Destoryer trying to hit one guy? -20. The only exception to this is MDC infantry--they have no penalty to hit normal dudes.

So, this is why so many vehicles and other advanced weapons use "anti-personel" weapons. If you're in Power Armor, you don't use your Rail Gun against the infantry, you use a "normal" MD weapon--some of the rail guns might even have dual fire modes for this purpose. So, yeah, if the ship is fighting one guy, it's going to use it's anti-personal rifles, not it's "big guns." So, basically armor and weapons can, and do, function on different scales, even if possessed by the same person.

So, just as it's absurd for an ordinary guy to walk up to a talk with a .38 and kill it with enough shots, it is equally impossible for a guy to walk up to a spider skull walker and shoot it to death with his laser pistol.

Like I said, it's still in rough draft form, but I'd love to work in the "official" PV rules.