CS war against Tolkeen

[Nether]

I wanted to get others take on the CS vs Tolkeen and it's outcome.

1) Did you feel that the CS should have been the victor and why?

2) Which nation/amry did you like better?

3) Do you think anything should have turned out different?

I felt the CS was going to win, though i didn't think Tolkeen would have been as difficult for them.

I liked that FQ turned and chose to save thier fellow humans instead of with such demonic forces of Tolkeen which didn't seem to make very good allies to me.

As for things that i don't agree with, is the creators view that the CS and Prosek family are so hard to assassinate. There is just to many spells and powers out there that would have allowed assassins to get into Chi town and take down the family as they just don't have the proper defenses for. I have been of the view that the major weakness of the CS is this, but its strength is also that killing the head doesn't stop the machine as another ferverous leader will step up.
I know they tried to add the vanguard in but to me they just wouldn't function as defenders at all when the CS would be rooting them out just as much as any other magic/psi/dbee's, they wouldn't be able to enchant anything in the city state without it being known soon enough and destroyed, and any group of them would be to much to last long. The creators just put them there to try and come up with a poor reason why they are defended against such.

Debate away

[keir451]

I, personally, think that the CS were bound to be the victors from the get go, but I disagree with how long the war dragged on. In my honest opinion the fight against Tolkeen should have taken less time. I'm not saying that because I "love" the CS. I actually don't "like" at all, I just recognize their technological superiority over a city full of disparate mages and creatures. But I DO respect the military might they had and felt that they went from being portayed as smart and capable to stupid and ineffectual just to drag out the story. It should have been over within the first year or two.
Alot of people talk about the so called power of magic being equal to technology, but I've honestly found (as have others, tho' others disagree) that it doesn't quite work that way, esp when you have lightly armed and armored mages duking it out with soldiers in Body Armor, Power Armor or heavy Robots or vehicles. Especially when the most damaging spells AT THE TIME were essentially Fireball and call lightning.
I agree that many of the spells have their utitlity but the vast majority of them are ineffective during such a larg scale combat scenario. How can a mage concentrate if he's standing in the middle of a missile bombardment or shelling or Dog Packs in old style CS Body Armor and weapons shooting at him?
The Prosek family lives in the heavily secured subsections of Chi-Town and probably have multiple patrols of Dog Packs and members of Psi-Battalion and the "Nut set" patrolling the area making it secure.
So in the end that's my take on it.

[Lenwen]

I wanted to get others take on the CS vs Tolkeen and it's outcome.

1) Did you feel that the CS should have been the victor and why?

Yes . With out a doubt the CS should have won.

2) Which nation/amry did you like better?

Both.

3) Do you think anything should have turned out different?

No. The correct power block won the war. However .. the correct power block should never have needed the plot devices it needed to get the win.

I felt the CS was going to win, though i didn't think Tolkeen would have been as difficult for them.

I felt neither side was portrayed very well .. neither side shined as they should have ..

[Mech-Viper Prime]

i enjoy the story with the coalition soldier, but you knew the coalition was going to win.

[Proseksword]

1) The outcome was obvious as far back as the Main Book, the C.S.

2) The Coalition States, naturally, although Tolkeen managed to be a lot cooler than pretty much every Magic power in North America besides Dweomer.

3) There were a number of somewhat over the top events, but that's just the way Kevin likes to write. I agree with Lenwen that it seemed like every time we turned around one side was pulling something out of a magic bag to save their rears. I felt like the CS Death Camps in Overkill were hokey as hell, and served only to draw heavy-handed Nazi parralels, when it would have been far simpler, cheaper and more in-character for the CS to simply vape every D-Bee man, woman & child on the road to Tolkeen and call it a day. I felt like the massive number of Tolkeen Iron Juggernauts was hokey, the insane level of success of the Sorcerer's Revenge was more hokey, the almost immediate and effortless recovery of the CS military even more hokey. I wish Kevin wouldn't have bothered throwing around actual numbers, because if he had kept it to vague descriptions like "large numbers", "heavy casualties", "massive recruiting", etc, we could have all simply interpreted it in a way that made sense to us, but because he gave hard numbers, we're all left scratching our heads how thousands of Iron Juggernauts could be put down by SAMAS & Skelebots, or how the Coalition can simply recruit a million guys to make up for losses overnight. Overall, like most things in RIFTs, if you enjoy it for the basic story and premise and don't let yourself get too bogged down in the nonsensical details, it's a good adventure setting.

[Giant2005]

1) No as a general rule of thumb, a well-equipped soldier will easily dispatch a well-versed mage in a 1v1 fight but an army of soldiers shouldn't hold a handle against an army of mages. Soldiers don't synergise together as well as mages do. 10,000 soldiers means 10,000 guns firing. 10,000 mages means instead of 20 PPE per round, they gain 200,000 PPE a round and can upgrade from Call Lightning and Armor of Ithan to Annihilate/Steel Rain and Sanctuary. No amount of tech or strategy can hold a candle to that kind of magical power. A few Mages together could cast Steel Rain silmutaneously on the same area to wipe out all life within a 750' diameter. They could keep a permanent Sanctuary up, rendering the CS completely impotent while one of Tolkeen's Mages can kill the defenseless CS troops as he pleases. Unless the enemy force has mages of it's own, there is literally nothing that can be done to defeat an army of mages.

2) Tolkeen. I don't really care about Tolkeen so much but KS has managed to teach me to hate the CS by giving them absurd victories like that over Tolkeen - I like to stand up for the underdog and with KS backing the CS, everything is an underdog compared to them.

3) Pretty much covered in number 1.

[Nether]

The more i read of the CS war against tolkeen, the more i see him loving the CS and making Tolkeen out to be the absolute badguys even though the CS started the war and wanted to invade.

Especially the sorcerers revenge on how makes it sound like "how dare those tolkinites take this war against thier homes personally and up the threat".

Don't get me wrong, i like both sides, but think the story could be better for telling it and not so hocus pokus.

[Nightmask]

The more i read of the CS war against tolkeen, the more i see him loving the CS and making Tolkeen out to be the absolute badguys even though the CS started the war and wanted to invade.

Especially the sorcerers revenge on how makes it sound like "how dare those tolkinites take this war against thier homes personally and up the threat".

Don't get me wrong, i like both sides, but think the story could be better for telling it and not so hocus pokus.

There is unfortunately a lot of the war where it's pretty much 'see we knew you were all evil and if we engaged in enough genocidal acts against you you'd show your true colors retroactively justifying our murderous actions'. Victimizerss blaming the victims, like the abusive spouses who go 'well it's your fault I beat on you'.

I think it really should have gone to Tolkeen, they just had far too much that the CS had never seen and were fanatically devoted to defending themselves against the murderous aggression of the CS. There are powerful spells that thanks to all the ley lines and nexus points most mages could work that were incredibly destructive and/or useful on a battle field and in hit-and-run applications.

[gaby]

1) It go to CS.

2)the in size of Psi-battalion take away the edge of magic.

3) Free Quebec always wants a humans majorty in North America,ther leadership and people known that if the CS fall,D-Bees will come after them in a few years.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

The more i read of the CS war against tolkeen, the more i see him loving the CS and making Tolkeen out to be the absolute badguys even though the CS started the war and wanted to invade.

Especially the sorcerers revenge on how makes it sound like "how dare those tolkinites take this war against thier homes personally and up the threat".

Don't get me wrong, i like both sides, but think the story could be better for telling it and not so hocus pokus.

There is unfortunately a lot of the war where it's pretty much 'see we knew you were all evil and if we engaged in enough genocidal acts against you you'd show your true colors retroactively justifying our murderous actions'. Victimizerss blaming the victims, like the abusive spouses who go 'well it's your fault I beat on you'.

I think it really should have gone to Tolkeen, they just had far too much that the CS had never seen and were fanatically devoted to defending themselves against the murderous aggression of the CS. There are powerful spells that thanks to all the ley lines and nexus points most mages could work that were incredibly destructive and/or useful on a battle field and in hit-and-run applications.

yup the victim card, nothing like that abused spouse who turns into a serial killer , claims they are more a victim then the one they killed.

[Nightmask]

The more i read of the CS war against tolkeen, the more i see him loving the CS and making Tolkeen out to be the absolute badguys even though the CS started the war and wanted to invade.

Especially the sorcerers revenge on how makes it sound like "how dare those tolkinites take this war against thier homes personally and up the threat".

Don't get me wrong, i like both sides, but think the story could be better for telling it and not so hocus pokus.

There is unfortunately a lot of the war where it's pretty much 'see we knew you were all evil and if we engaged in enough genocidal acts against you you'd show your true colors retroactively justifying our murderous actions'. Victimizerss blaming the victims, like the abusive spouses who go 'well it's your fault I beat on you'.

I think it really should have gone to Tolkeen, they just had far too much that the CS had never seen and were fanatically devoted to defending themselves against the murderous aggression of the CS. There are powerful spells that thanks to all the ley lines and nexus points most mages could work that were incredibly destructive and/or useful on a battle field and in hit-and-run applications.

yup the victim card, nothing like that abused spouse who turns into a serial killer , claims they are more a victim then the one they killed.

Really just stop with the 'the CS is a pure white and innocent thing' defenses. You're talking the murderous serial killer spouse (the CS) whose victim (Tolkeen) became close to being like them as a result. Nobody in their right mind would go and defend the CS claiming that their victim 'had it coming' because they would turn into bad guys only after being brutally assaulted and murdered.

[Nether]

The more i read of the CS war against tolkeen, the more i see him loving the CS and making Tolkeen out to be the absolute badguys even though the CS started the war and wanted to invade.

Especially the sorcerers revenge on how makes it sound like "how dare those tolkinites take this war against thier homes personally and up the threat".

Don't get me wrong, i like both sides, but think the story could be better for telling it and not so hocus pokus.

There is unfortunately a lot of the war where it's pretty much 'see we knew you were all evil and if we engaged in enough genocidal acts against you you'd show your true colors retroactively justifying our murderous actions'. Victimizerss blaming the victims, like the abusive spouses who go 'well it's your fault I beat on you'.

I think it really should have gone to Tolkeen, they just had far too much that the CS had never seen and were fanatically devoted to defending themselves against the murderous aggression of the CS. There are powerful spells that thanks to all the ley lines and nexus points most mages could work that were incredibly destructive and/or useful on a battle field and in hit-and-run applications.

yup the victim card, nothing like that abused spouse who turns into a serial killer , claims they are more a victim then the one they killed.

Really just stop with the 'the CS is a pure white and innocent thing' defenses. You're talking the murderous serial killer spouse (the CS) whose victim (Tolkeen) became close to being like them as a result. Nobody in their right mind would go and defend the CS claiming that their victim 'had it coming' because they would turn into bad guys only after being brutally assaulted and murdered.

/seconds Nightmask

Not like the CS whole sale slaughter dbee villages or anything, or torture/experiment on people and animals like a certain group did in ww2 or anything. Or invading another kingdom that at first only defends itself... or you know keep thier populace illiterate so they can't adequately shape thier goverment or even know whats really going on. Feels like this list just keeps going.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

The more i read of the CS war against tolkeen, the more i see him loving the CS and making Tolkeen out to be the absolute badguys even though the CS started the war and wanted to invade.

Especially the sorcerers revenge on how makes it sound like "how dare those tolkinites take this war against thier homes personally and up the threat".

Don't get me wrong, i like both sides, but think the story could be better for telling it and not so hocus pokus.

There is unfortunately a lot of the war where it's pretty much 'see we knew you were all evil and if we engaged in enough genocidal acts against you you'd show your true colors retroactively justifying our murderous actions'. Victimizerss blaming the victims, like the abusive spouses who go 'well it's your fault I beat on you'.

I think it really should have gone to Tolkeen, they just had far too much that the CS had never seen and were fanatically devoted to defending themselves against the murderous aggression of the CS. There are powerful spells that thanks to all the ley lines and nexus points most mages could work that were incredibly destructive and/or useful on a battle field and in hit-and-run applications.

yup the victim card, nothing like that abused spouse who turns into a serial killer , claims they are more a victim then the one they killed.

Really just stop with the 'the CS is a pure white and innocent thing' defenses. You're talking the murderous serial killer spouse (the CS) whose victim (Tolkeen) became close to being like them as a result. Nobody in their right mind would go and defend the CS claiming that their victim 'had it coming' because they would turn into bad guys only after being brutally assaulted and murdered.

first i never said the CS was innocent, the coalition made Tolkeen play right into their hand,
so dont try that tolkeen has no blood on thier hands route , tolkeen choosed to go the route they did , they had chance to leave , they could held the colaition off until the entire city eas cleared, but no they choosed to stay and fight and recuit demons and people low moral valueand that put them in the same ranking of the coalition.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

The more i read of the CS war against tolkeen, the more i see him loving the CS and making Tolkeen out to be the absolute badguys even though the CS started the war and wanted to invade.

Especially the sorcerers revenge on how makes it sound like "how dare those tolkinites take this war against thier homes personally and up the threat".

Don't get me wrong, i like both sides, but think the story could be better for telling it and not so hocus pokus.

There is unfortunately a lot of the war where it's pretty much 'see we knew you were all evil and if we engaged in enough genocidal acts against you you'd show your true colors retroactively justifying our murderous actions'. Victimizerss blaming the victims, like the abusive spouses who go 'well it's your fault I beat on you'.

I think it really should have gone to Tolkeen, they just had far too much that the CS had never seen and were fanatically devoted to defending themselves against the murderous aggression of the CS. There are powerful spells that thanks to all the ley lines and nexus points most mages could work that were incredibly destructive and/or useful on a battle field and in hit-and-run applications.

yup the victim card, nothing like that abused spouse who turns into a serial killer , claims they are more a victim then the one they killed.

Really just stop with the 'the CS is a pure white and innocent thing' defenses. You're talking the murderous serial killer spouse (the CS) whose victim (Tolkeen) became close to being like them as a result. Nobody in their right mind would go and defend the CS claiming that their victim 'had it coming' because they would turn into bad guys only after being brutally assaulted and murdered.

/seconds Nightmask

Not like the CS whole sale slaughter dbee villages or anything, or torture/experiment on people and animals like a certain group did in ww2 or anything. Or invading another kingdom that at first only defends itself... or you know keep thier populace illiterate so they can't adequately shape thier goverment or even know whats really going on. Feels like this list just keeps going.

yeah and the tolkeen forces never did that to any Coalition soliders, hell tolkeen defenders ended up defending the coalition soldiers from the demons and the scum , the tolkeen leaders recuited. when a cyber-knight jumps to a wound cs solider defense and you standing next to a demon and you and the demon are calling for that soldier blood , then yes your moral compass has went south and you belong in the company you keep.

[Nightmask]

first i never said the CS was innocent, the coalition made Tolkeen play right into their hand,
so dont try that tolkeen has no blood on thier hands route , tolkeen choosed to go the route they did , they had chance to leave , they could held the colaition off until the entire city eas cleared, but no they choosed to stay and fight and recuit demons and people low moral valueand that put them in the same ranking of the coalition.

Of course you've said the CS is innocent, you've defended them and their actions most vigorously and without fail. Oh and that blood on Tolkeen's hands? It's mainly their own, from the innocent women and children murdered by the CS that they've cried over and had to bury (when they had the chance to bury them that is). So no you just epic fail all around on this point, blaming the victim for fighting back instead of just taking it so in spite of it all Tolkeen is STILL the better group.

[Nightmask]

yeah and the tolkeen forces never did that to any Coalition soliders, hell tolkeen defenders ended up defending the coalition soldiers from the demons and the scum , the tolkeen leaders recuited. when a cyber-knight jumps to a wound cs solider defense and you standing next to a demon and you and the demon are calling for that soldier blood , then yes your moral compass has went south and you belong in the company you keep.

Again you're doing a fine job of defending the aggressive, genocidal actions of the CS and demonizing the actions of their victims in trying to survive and fight back. If the CS hadn't sent those soldiers in to murder innocents Tolkeen wouldn't have done anything to them, since if you aren't killing people who never did you wrong they've no reason to be killing you. Once you've killed innocents like that you've no room to whine about it when they come after you.

If someone's kicking back at a gathering relaxing and someone just runs up and bashes him with a baseball bat because he didn't like the look of him said someone would completely deserve the beating he gets from the guy's friends in defending him. Someone invades your homeland and murders everyone they can you fight back because they've brought it all on themselves by being the aggressors. There is no defense of the CS as you keep doing, and nothing Tolkeen did in response is as bad as what the CS did first and continuously right up to the end.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yeah and the tolkeen forces never did that to any Coalition soliders, hell tolkeen defenders ended up defending the coalition soldiers from the demons and the scum , the tolkeen leaders recuited. when a cyber-knight jumps to a wound cs solider defense and you standing next to a demon and you and the demon are calling for that soldier blood , then yes your moral compass has went south and you belong in the company you keep.

Again you're doing a fine job of defending the aggressive, genocidal actions of the CS and demonizing the actions of their victims in trying to survive and fight back. If the CS hadn't sent those soldiers in to murder innocents Tolkeen wouldn't have done anything to them, since if you aren't killing people who never did you wrong they've no reason to be killing you. Once you've killed innocents like that you've no room to whine about it when they come after you.

If someone's kicking back at a gathering relaxing and someone just runs up and bashes him with a baseball bat because he didn't like the look of him said someone would completely deserve the beating he gets from the guy's friends in defending him. Someone invades your homeland and murders everyone they can you fight back because they've brought it all on themselves by being the aggressors. There is no defense of the CS as you keep doing, and nothing Tolkeen did in response is as bad as what the CS did first and continuously right up to the end.

wow you are just assuming every coalition soldier shots every helpless d-bee child they see. but given you argue about juicers this makes me wonder about you

[Mech-Viper Prime]

first i never said the CS was innocent, the coalition made Tolkeen play right into their hand,
so dont try that tolkeen has no blood on thier hands route , tolkeen choosed to go the route they did , they had chance to leave , they could held the colaition off until the entire city eas cleared, but no they choosed to stay and fight and recuit demons and people low moral valueand that put them in the same ranking of the coalition.

Of course you've said the CS is innocent, you've defended them and their actions most vigorously and without fail. Oh and that blood on Tolkeen's hands? It's mainly their own, from the innocent women and children murdered by the CS that they've cried over and had to bury (when they had the chance to bury them that is). So no you just epic fail all around on this point, blaming the victim for fighting back instead of just taking it so in spite of it all Tolkeen is STILL the better group.

I just dont pretend like you do that tolkeen was so innocent in the war, but tolkken could have took prisoners and give them trials to show , yes we are better then the coalition , but no when slaughter people in their sleep or when they are running away, instead of capturing them , then yes you have become the monster they said you were and you have joined the coalition in the same level of evil the coalition is

[gaby]

Mech-Viper Prime is Right.

Tolkeen have the opportunity to prove they were better then the CS,but dit not take it.
The US could have totaly wipe out the Germany and Japan for what they did in World War2 but we dit not and we could take easy way with are current problems but we do not.

I do not see the CS,s leadership as innocent but it,s is not Right to whip out the total population of the CS.

[Athos]

1) Did you feel that the CS should have been the victor and why?

2) Which nation/amry did you like better?

3) Do you think anything should have turned out different?

1) The CS did not win in most of the games that I run, Tolkeen fought them to a standoff, so no I do not feel that the CS had or deserved to win here.

2) I don't really care about either, but some of the stuff, like the moron living through the xiticix was just a bit much for me to stomach. Can you stay insect food.

3) In my games, I don't always have the same turn out as "the books" when it comes to what happens. I find that a few surprises are good for the metagamers, so I try to make logical conclusions to things and not emotional. So like I mentioned, the CS fought to a stalemate in most of my games, not a victory. It is either in a state of cold war, or the siege continues in one of my games into 114 PA even.

The one thing about palladium that I think a lot of people get wrong is that you don't have to doggedly stick to what is happening in the books from a history standpoint. As GM, you are allowed to change things in your world. If you want Rama-Set to expand his influence, just do it, don't wait and hope someone will do it for you.

I did have one player tell me he thought it was "rude" of me to change "history" in my games. I replied that I thought it was rude of him to cheat and metagame by reading everything and expecting it to be exactly the same, how would his character know 50+ books worth of GM info. He didn't have a good answer to that one.

So I try to keep the mechanics and make the world my own as GM. That way players know the game, they know the basics of what is happening, but they don't always know how things will turn out. To me, this just makes sense.

[keir451]

1) Did you feel that the CS should have been the victor and why?

2) Which nation/amry did you like better?

3) Do you think anything should have turned out different?

1) The CS did not win in most of the games that I run, Tolkeen fought them to a standoff, so no I do not feel that the CS had or deserved to win here.

2) I don't really care about either, but some of the stuff, like the moron living through the xiticix was just a bit much for me to stomach. Can you stay insect food.

3) In my games, I don't always have the same turn out as "the books" when it comes to what happens. I find that a few surprises are good for the metagamers, so I try to make logical conclusions to things and not emotional. So like I mentioned, the CS fought to a stalemate in most of my games, not a victory. It is either in a state of cold war, or the siege continues in one of my games into 114 PA even.

The one thing about palladium that I think a lot of people get wrong is that you don't have to doggedly stick to what is happening in the books from a history standpoint. As GM, you are allowed to change things in your world. If you want Rama-Set to expand his influence, just do it, don't wait and hope someone will do it for you.

I did have one player tell me he thought it was "rude" of me to change "history" in my games. I replied that I thought it was rude of him to cheat and metagame by reading everything and expecting it to be exactly the same, how would his character know 50+ books worth of GM info. He didn't have a good answer to that one.

So I try to keep the mechanics and make the world my own as GM. That way players know the game, they know the basics of what is happening, but they don't always know how things will turn out. To me, this just makes sense.

I agree that as a GM you can change things up how you want and it WAS rude of that guy to try and tell you how to run your game.

[Nightmask]

wow you are just assuming every coalition soldier shots every helpless d-bee child they see. but given you argue about juicers this makes me wonder about you

I'd wonder where that pointless reference comes from except you prefer to distract from the actual topic tossing out irrelevant things. I mean you'd have to be some kind of idiot to take my disagreeing with the Juicer death sentence as a necessary requirement for the class and spin it into some kind of criticism of my ethics or morality when every game book clearly shows the CS engaging in all manner of atrocities or try and make it out that because there's a CS soldier here and there that didn't murder some helpless Tolkeenite that somehow that means that they're all innocent of doing so.

[Nightmask]

I just dont pretend like you do that tolkeen was so innocent in the war, but tolkken could have took prisoners and give them trials to show , yes we are better then the coalition , but no when slaughter people in their sleep or when they are running away, instead of capturing them , then yes you have become the monster they said you were and you have joined the coalition in the same level of evil the coalition is

I don't pretend that Tolkeen was innocent, you're the one that's doing the pretending every time you jump in to defend the actions of the CS as being acceptable behavior which is what your posts clearly do. 'Gee the CS slaughtered all those Tolkeenites but hey they had to because if we didn't kill them all they'd have come back and killed us for it so it's completely justified' is all you ever argue. You always play up how the less evil actions of the Tolkeenites done in response to a horribly unprovoked and unjustified are somehow unconscionably evil but the actions of the CS aren't. You've even dismissed their fighting back as being immoral of them for trying to defend their homes and families and they should have ran WHEN THERE ISN'T ANYWHERE TO RUN TO.

You think it's easy building a community from scratch while fleeing for your lives and knowing eventually your monstrous attackers are just going to catch up with you again someday? Worse those murderous monsters hunting you get to expand and grow even stronger and you're now weaker and less able to fight back? Of course Tolkeen fought, they fought like anyone backed into a corner will, against a totally merciless and implacable foe that wouldn't even give you the mercy of the grave if they could help it.

[Rallan]

Really just stop with the 'the CS is a pure white and innocent thing' defenses. You're talking the murderous serial killer spouse (the CS) whose victim (Tolkeen) became close to being like them as a result. Nobody in their right mind would go and defend the CS claiming that their victim 'had it coming' because they would turn into bad guys only after being brutally assaulted and murdered.

I think it would be safe to say that Tolkeen became bad because Siembieda didn't want them to be the good guys, not because they were backed into it. The CS were fan favourites, and we've got the official Word Of Coffin that various war crimes and atrocities that he felt would have been in-character for xenophobic fascists like the CS ended up being toned down or removed altogether so that the CS wouldn't look like the baddies, and a whole bunch of stuff about Tolkeen trafficking with demons and doing various other nasty stuff (none of which had even been hinted at in earlier Rifts book) was invented out of thin air so it would be easier to justify the actions of the side that so many fanboys love.

Then of course there's all the super-powered incredibly hardcore magic weapons and potection that Tolkeen had, which (again) wasn't foreshadowed in any of the earlier books, and looks like it was invented from out of thin air purely to explain why the Coalition took longer than a month to beat them.

[Nightmask]

Really just stop with the 'the CS is a pure white and innocent thing' defenses. You're talking the murderous serial killer spouse (the CS) whose victim (Tolkeen) became close to being like them as a result. Nobody in their right mind would go and defend the CS claiming that their victim 'had it coming' because they would turn into bad guys only after being brutally assaulted and murdered.

I think it would be safe to say that Tolkeen became bad because Siembieda didn't want them to be the good guys, not because they were backed into it. The CS were fan favourites, and we've got the official Word Of Coffin that various war crimes and atrocities that he felt would have been in-character for xenophobic fascists like the CS ended up being toned down or removed altogether so that the CS wouldn't look like the baddies, and a whole bunch of stuff about Tolkeen trafficking with demons and doing various other nasty stuff (none of which had even been hinted at in earlier Rifts book) was invented out of thin air so it would be easier to justify the actions of the side that so many fanboys love.

Then of course there's all the super-powered incredibly hardcore magic weapons and potection that Tolkeen had, which (again) wasn't foreshadowed in any of the earlier books, and looks like it was invented from out of thin air purely to explain why the Coalition took longer than a month to beat them.

I can believe that. When the designated winner is someone who you're going to be disappointed in seeing win because they're evil and you can't clean up their image (how can you make someone better when they idolize Hitler but think he didn't go far enough? ) you dirty the image of their victim even though you still fail to get support for them losing when it's all a result of the brutal genocidal assault from someone else. It's not like Tolkeen was the Federation of Magic which freely and has always trafficked with demons and all sorts of evils, a clearly evil organization that doesn't need 'designated villain' trope application they are villains. Much like one anime where these isolationist elves were given 'designated hero' status but the 'designated villains' in humanity who were fighting to defend the earth came off a lot more sympathetic to the viewers so they revamped it half-way through to make the viewers see the designated heroes as more deserving of the label.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

given the rumor about the emperor son's soul being around one of the tolkeen council member's neck, do you think the High and mightly emperor would let it go , it was more personal to Karl and Joseph then most realize.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Really just stop with the 'the CS is a pure white and innocent thing' defenses. You're talking the murderous serial killer spouse (the CS) whose victim (Tolkeen) became close to being like them as a result. Nobody in their right mind would go and defend the CS claiming that their victim 'had it coming' because they would turn into bad guys only after being brutally assaulted and murdered.

I think it would be safe to say that Tolkeen became bad because Siembieda didn't want them to be the good guys, not because they were backed into it. The CS were fan favourites, and we've got the official Word Of Coffin that various war crimes and atrocities that he felt would have been in-character for xenophobic fascists like the CS ended up being toned down or removed altogether so that the CS wouldn't look like the baddies, and a whole bunch of stuff about Tolkeen trafficking with demons and doing various other nasty stuff (none of which had even been hinted at in earlier Rifts book) was invented out of thin air so it would be easier to justify the actions of the side that so many fanboys love.

Then of course there's all the super-powered incredibly hardcore magic weapons and potection that Tolkeen had, which (again) wasn't foreshadowed in any of the earlier books, and looks like it was invented from out of thin air purely to explain why the Coalition took longer than a month to beat them.

its was set up to fall from the very beginning locked in a cold war with CS from day one.

[Dr Megaverse]

I find the idea of Tolkeen fighting the CS to a standstill a much more logical outcome. I also personally feel it makes for a richer gaming experience as well.

Another aspect I never bought was that no one else decided that while the CS was looking up north that it was time for some payback. It only makes sense that folks like the Pecos, FoM, et all would have taken the opportunity to harry CS Lone Star and CS Missouri/Arkansas. Nope, everything was just buttoned up nice and tight and ALL their other fronts were quiet.

Then there is Jericho Holmes. If there hadn't been an entire WB about how nasty the Xiticix were I might have been able to swallow the handwavium Palladium employed on that one. As it is I can't help but feel it was pure, unadulterated, unalloyed horse crap. Sorry Palladium, I'm not buying a ticket to that show.

[Nightmask]

I find the idea of Tolkeen fighting the CS to a standstill a much more logical outcome. I also personally feel it makes for a richer gaming experience as well.

Another aspect I never bought was that no one else decided that while the CS was looking up north that it was time for some payback. It only makes sense that folks like the Pecos, FoM, et all would have taken the opportunity to harry CS Lone Star and CS Missouri/Arkansas. Nope, everything was just buttoned up nice and tight and ALL their other fronts were quiet.

Then there is Jericho Holmes. If there hadn't been an entire WB about how nasty the Xiticix were I might have been able to swallow the handwavium Palladium employed on that one. As it is I can't help but feel it was pure, unadulterated, unalloyed horse crap. Sorry Palladium, I'm not buying a ticket to that show.

Yes it did make no sense that everyone who had a beef with the CS just sat back and did absolutely nothing while its attention was focused on Tolkeen. Such people don't just go 'gee while they're busy over there I'll just sit here and do nothing at all to this empire I hate more than anything with this sweet opportunity I now have', it was a war just to destroy Tolkeen and all other logical considerations ignored to carry out that goal and get a $100 out of us for the six books that give you little to no chance to influence things and designates the CS as the winner so for the average good aligned PC group it's just another depressing win for evil that they don't get to do anything about.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I find the idea of Tolkeen fighting the CS to a standstill a much more logical outcome. I also personally feel it makes for a richer gaming experience as well.

Another aspect I never bought was that no one else decided that while the CS was looking up north that it was time for some payback. It only makes sense that folks like the Pecos, FoM, et all would have taken the opportunity to harry CS Lone Star and CS Missouri/Arkansas. Nope, everything was just buttoned up nice and tight and ALL their other fronts were quiet.

Then there is Jericho Holmes. If there hadn't been an entire WB about how nasty the Xiticix were I might have been able to swallow the handwavium Palladium employed on that one. As it is I can't help but feel it was pure, unadulterated, unalloyed horse crap. Sorry Palladium, I'm not buying a ticket to that show.

Yes it did make no sense that everyone who had a beef with the CS just sat back and did absolutely nothing while its attention was focused on Tolkeen. Such people don't just go 'gee while they're busy over there I'll just sit here and do nothing at all to this empire I hate more than anything with this sweet opportunity I now have', it was a war just to destroy Tolkeen and all other logical considerations ignored to carry out that goal and get a $100 out of us for the six books that give you little to no chance to influence things and designates the CS as the winner so for the average good aligned PC group it's just another depressing win for evil that they don't get to do anything about.

FOM dont act because where was tolkeen when Chi-town was taking it to them, so frak them tolkeen

As for the rest everybody saw it as a no winner

[Nether]

The thing i think some are forgetting is that CS started the war, had committed attrocities long before the tolkeen war, and regardless that they probably were trying to soften the CS image, if you can't stomach what war might bring then maybe you shouldn't be getting into one.

I also agree that tolkeen did become more dark with all the demon crap ext, but when you are faced with a decision of death and destruction or adopt some radical methods, many will go with radical methods to save themselves, thier homes and not be forced into anything from a opposing nation. And when invaded, many refuse to just up and move, as it is thier home and possibly patriotic allegiance that would keep them there.

All in all, i think it was really a badly written story and a waste of 6 books time that could have been spent to much better books in Rifts. It felt like i was reading a story written by a 10 year old that had this, had that and wow wow wow.

@MechViper
The difference with FoM though is they hate CS, and thier leader Dunscon hates the CS with every fiber of his being, not to mention his rivalry with Proseks. He could care less about saving Tolkeen, but to give up this prime opportunity to put the pain to the CS is beyond dumb for him. He would have jumped at this opportunity and i'm thinking especially after sorcerer revenge he could have taken Chi town or damage them so badly that their fall would eventually come.

Pecos raiders would have also jumped at this opportunity to raid and loot Lonestar while the security forces were at its weakest.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

@MechViper
The difference with FoM though is they hate CS, and thier leader Dunscon hates the CS with every fiber of his being, not to mention his rivalry with Proseks. He could care less about saving Tolkeen, but to give up this prime opportunity to put the pain to the CS is beyond dumb for him. He would have jumped at this opportunity and i'm thinking especially after sorcerer revenge he could have taken Chi town or damage them so badly that their fall would eventually come.

Pecos raiders would have also jumped at this opportunity to raid and loot Lonestar while the security forces were at its weakest.

true that rivialry, start with Poppa Dunscon over reacting in the peace talks , which chi-town was going to leave him and FOM alone , but dunscon dont think they would , so he attack, and the same type of beings who come to chi-town defense against FOM as the same type CS trys to kill now.

[Shark_Force]

1) no. i don't think anyone should have won the war. both sides were played as idiots, to some extent; the coalition not having artillery, as someone else pointed out, is completely preposterous, not to mention also going to war with FQ, and somehow just assuming that nobody else would get involved (not the splugorth who could be expected to step up raiding, not the pecos empire, not the federation of magic) -- the stupidest part being, as was also pointed out, that nobody else actually got involved. Tolkeen, quite frankly, apparently doesn't have the slightest clue how to use magic. if they had even remotely creative leadership that understand the potential of what magic can do, the CS would have to build a fortress starting in chi-town and ending at the battlefront, with soldiers guarding every inch of that distance, and having to deal with constant natural disasters hitting said fortress repeatedly, several times a day, in multiple locations. simply put, the ability of magic to raid and cut off supply lines should have made it impossible for the CS to invade effectively, while the CS would have had too many soldiers in their established bases for tolkeen to reliably be able to assault their positions. as has been suggested, a stalemate/cold war scenario makes way more sense.

2) not a huge fan of either. both armies pretty much got handwaved into existence. the army of tolkeen seemed the most ridiculous... one of the key advantages to magic is that you can do things with almost zero resources spent beyond completely renewable ones. i cannot for the life of me fathom why tolkeen would instead decide to focus on making a small number of resource-intensive troops, when they could instead have made large numbers of almost completely renewable troops instead (for example, if they're going to go evil, then just summon in hordes of gargoyles, equip them *at most* with MDC wooden equipment, a few talismans/scrolls, and maybe some fire orbs, and send them off... who cares if they die, if you're gonna be evil, then it's not like you're going to mourn their deaths. another example would be legions of mummies and/or zombies, again, using the same kind of equipment. techno-wizardry should have been used to mass produce that equipment with almost no effort or cost, not to create a handful of TW-devices or to upgrade daemonix with TW bionics)

3) yes. pretty much the whole thing should have turned out different. the CS should have reached the point where they simply couldn't sustain the war effort, and either retreated or just make token efforts to show that they "haven't lost the war" while they try to figure out how they're going to fight an enemy that can teleport, that can make natural disasters on demand, that can create entire divisions of troops at essentially zero cost, that can render entire areas essentially impervious to any form of attack, and so forth. tolkeen should have realised that their entire army is essentially completely garbage when it comes to conventional warfare, and just made life a living hell for the CS by ambushing them every step of the way and then disappearing without a trace.

[Giant2005]

first i never said the CS was innocent, the coalition made Tolkeen play right into their hand,
so dont try that tolkeen has no blood on thier hands route , tolkeen choosed to go the route they did , they had chance to leave , they could held the colaition off until the entire city eas cleared, but no they choosed to stay and fight and recuit demons and people low moral valueand that put them in the same ranking of the coalition.

I have to ask, if your home country was attacked by a superior force that was intent on extinguishing your race but had no nuclear capabilities, would you rather your government nuke them as a deterrent or submit to their fate? Would you expect your entire country to be able to relocate somewhere else on the planet?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

first i never said the CS was innocent, the coalition made Tolkeen play right into their hand,
so dont try that tolkeen has no blood on thier hands route , tolkeen choosed to go the route they did , they had chance to leave , they could held the colaition off until the entire city eas cleared, but no they choosed to stay and fight and recuit demons and people low moral valueand that put them in the same ranking of the coalition.

I have to ask, if your home country was attacked by a superior force that was intent on extinguishing your race but had no nuclear capabilities, would you rather your government nuke them as a deterrent or submit to their fate? Would you expect your entire country to be able to relocate somewhere else on the planet?

apples and oranges

[Nightmask]

first i never said the CS was innocent, the coalition made Tolkeen play right into their hand,
so dont try that tolkeen has no blood on thier hands route , tolkeen choosed to go the route they did , they had chance to leave , they could held the colaition off until the entire city eas cleared, but no they choosed to stay and fight and recuit demons and people low moral valueand that put them in the same ranking of the coalition.

I have to ask, if your home country was attacked by a superior force that was intent on extinguishing your race but had no nuclear capabilities, would you rather your government nuke them as a deterrent or submit to their fate? Would you expect your entire country to be able to relocate somewhere else on the planet?

apples and oranges

No, dead on totally accurate. You just don't want to answer the question because it requires speaking positively of Tolkeen's response to what was done to it.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

first i never said the CS was innocent, the coalition made Tolkeen play right into their hand,
so dont try that tolkeen has no blood on thier hands route , tolkeen choosed to go the route they did , they had chance to leave , they could held the colaition off until the entire city eas cleared, but no they choosed to stay and fight and recuit demons and people low moral valueand that put them in the same ranking of the coalition.

I have to ask, if your home country was attacked by a superior force that was intent on extinguishing your race but had no nuclear capabilities, would you rather your government nuke them as a deterrent or submit to their fate? Would you expect your entire country to be able to relocate somewhere else on the planet?

apples and oranges

No, dead on totally accurate. You just don't want to answer the question because it requires speaking positively of Tolkeen's response to what was done to it.

no i understand why they recuited the demons they needed the manpower and firepower , its more of a disappointment in tolkeen route they choosed then any anti tolkeen or pro coalition POV. I enjoy playing the CS player because its more fun dealing with the moral issues and seeing how far a character can go before becoming a monster , that they claim a D-bee is, how much hell do you put yourself thru to keep your love ones safe , and such
so its more of a disappointment in tolkeen then anything esle.

[glitterboy2098]

1) Did you feel that the CS should have been the victor and why?
i beleive the CS would have been the inevitable victor. it had a larger force, better logistics, and more initial force multipliers.

that said, both sides were run badly from a tactical and strategic standpoint.
CS:
wave attacks of unsupported skelebots?
no real use of their air superiority?
no real use of their air mobile ability?
no real coordination between large units?

tolkeen:
no real use of lateral thinking (magic's specialty?)
no real strikes against the CS's logistical chain?
no real use of psychological warfare?
no real use of technological forces?
no real use of sabotage of the CS homefront?

and so on.

2) Which nation/army did you like better?
neither really. the CS comes off as tactical and strategic idiots with shiny tech toys, and tolkeen comes off as tactical and strategic idiots with shiny magic doohickies.

it's bad when you find yourself rooting for the xiticix to swarm down and eat them all to put them out of your misery.

3) Do you think anything should have turned out different?
alot. Tolkeen should have been buying up large amounts of tech weapons and having their TW's add magic enhancements to them instead of building expensive boondoggles like the iron juggernaughts. they should have created irregular warfare units of mages to sneak int othe CS backfeild and run amok using lateral thinking to take out CS logistics, employ psychlogical warfare, and damage the CS's infrastructure back home (like taking out their farmlands or smaller communities.)

the CS should have employed their air power to suppress tolkeenite positions, then airlift in ground units to seize and hold. instead of sending their skelbots in unsupported, assign them in attached formations to every ground unit to support the troops and tanks. mass deployment of the Psi-batt and dogboys to guard the logistics lines and ferret out teams of mages should have been a priority.

and so on. having tolkeen fall to a unit that pulled off a literally impossible feat (driving through the xiticix hivelands with minimal losses) should have been instead something more like the culmination of an infiltration campaign by CS covert ops units, which snuck in disguised as mercenaries and who struck at tolkeens defense system control centers and military command centers, thus dropping the main defenses and disrupting tolkeens forces command and control long enough for a major blitzkreig by the main CS forces to punch through the tolkeenite lines and take the city.

[keir451]

1) no. i don't think anyone should have won the war. both sides were played as idiots, to some extent; the coalition not having artillery, as someone else pointed out, is completely preposterous, not to mention also going to war with FQ, and somehow just assuming that nobody else would get involved (not the splugorth who could be expected to step up raiding, not the pecos empire, not the federation of magic) -- the stupidest part being, as was also pointed out, that nobody else actually got involved. Tolkeen, quite frankly, apparently doesn't have the slightest clue how to use magic. if they had even remotely creative leadership that understand the potential of what magic can do, the CS would have to build a fortress starting in chi-town and ending at the battlefront, with soldiers guarding every inch of that distance, and having to deal with constant natural disasters hitting said fortress repeatedly, several times a day, in multiple locations. simply put, the ability of magic to raid and cut off supply lines should have made it impossible for the CS to invade effectively, while the CS would have had too many soldiers in their established bases for tolkeen to reliably be able to assault their positions. as has been suggested, a stalemate/cold war scenario makes way more sense.

2) not a huge fan of either. both armies pretty much got handwaved into existence. the army of tolkeen seemed the most ridiculous... one of the key advantages to magic is that you can do things with almost zero resources spent beyond completely renewable ones. i cannot for the life of me fathom why tolkeen would instead decide to focus on making a small number of resource-intensive troops, when they could instead have made large numbers of almost completely renewable troops instead (for example, if they're going to go evil, then just summon in hordes of gargoyles, equip them *at most* with MDC wooden equipment, a few talismans/scrolls, and maybe some fire orbs, and send them off... who cares if they die, if you're gonna be evil, then it's not like you're going to mourn their deaths. another example would be legions of mummies and/or zombies, again, using the same kind of equipment. techno-wizardry should have been used to mass produce that equipment with almost no effort or cost, not to create a handful of TW-devices or to upgrade daemonix with TW bionics)

3) yes. pretty much the whole thing should have turned out different. the CS should have reached the point where they simply couldn't sustain the war effort, and either retreated or just make token efforts to show that they "haven't lost the war" while they try to figure out how they're going to fight an enemy that can teleport, that can make natural disasters on demand, that can create entire divisions of troops at essentially zero cost, that can render entire areas essentially impervious to any form of attack, and so forth. tolkeen should have realised that their entire army is essentially completely garbage when it comes to conventional warfare, and just made life a living hell for the CS by ambushing them every step of the way and then disappearing without a trace.

I agree that both sides were played as idiots, and that other groups would have taken advantage of the CS's distraction.
Yes the magic SHOULD have been handled differently, but I don't agree that the forces on both sides were just "handwavium", there is a logical progression to this you just have to look outside the box or the books as it may be.
I don't agree with your final statement, I don't see how the CS could have wound up not being able to sustain the war effort. IMO the war should have been over within months to a year IF the technologyt the CS has had been used effectively.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

1) no. i don't think anyone should have won the war. both sides were played as idiots, to some extent; the coalition not having artillery, as someone else pointed out, is completely preposterous, not to mention also going to war with FQ, and somehow just assuming that nobody else would get involved (not the splugorth who could be expected to step up raiding, not the pecos empire, not the federation of magic) -- the stupidest part being, as was also pointed out, that nobody else actually got involved. Tolkeen, quite frankly, apparently doesn't have the slightest clue how to use magic. if they had even remotely creative leadership that understand the potential of what magic can do, the CS would have to build a fortress starting in chi-town and ending at the battlefront, with soldiers guarding every inch of that distance, and having to deal with constant natural disasters hitting said fortress repeatedly, several times a day, in multiple locations. simply put, the ability of magic to raid and cut off supply lines should have made it impossible for the CS to invade effectively, while the CS would have had too many soldiers in their established bases for tolkeen to reliably be able to assault their positions. as has been suggested, a stalemate/cold war scenario makes way more sense.

2) not a huge fan of either. both armies pretty much got handwaved into existence. the army of tolkeen seemed the most ridiculous... one of the key advantages to magic is that you can do things with almost zero resources spent beyond completely renewable ones. i cannot for the life of me fathom why tolkeen would instead decide to focus on making a small number of resource-intensive troops, when they could instead have made large numbers of almost completely renewable troops instead (for example, if they're going to go evil, then just summon in hordes of gargoyles, equip them *at most* with MDC wooden equipment, a few talismans/scrolls, and maybe some fire orbs, and send them off... who cares if they die, if you're gonna be evil, then it's not like you're going to mourn their deaths. another example would be legions of mummies and/or zombies, again, using the same kind of equipment. techno-wizardry should have been used to mass produce that equipment with almost no effort or cost, not to create a handful of TW-devices or to upgrade daemonix with TW bionics)

3) yes. pretty much the whole thing should have turned out different. the CS should have reached the point where they simply couldn't sustain the war effort, and either retreated or just make token efforts to show that they "haven't lost the war" while they try to figure out how they're going to fight an enemy that can teleport, that can make natural disasters on demand, that can create entire divisions of troops at essentially zero cost, that can render entire areas essentially impervious to any form of attack, and so forth. tolkeen should have realised that their entire army is essentially completely garbage when it comes to conventional warfare, and just made life a living hell for the CS by ambushing them every step of the way and then disappearing without a trace.

I agree that both sides were played as idiots, and that other groups would have taken advantage of the CS's distraction.
Yes the magic SHOULD have been handled differently, but I don't agree that the forces on both sides were just "handwavium", there is a logical progression to this you just have to look outside the box or the books as it may be.
I don't agree with your final statement, I don't see how the CS could have wound up not being able to sustain the war effort. IMO the war should have been over within months to a year IF the technologyt the CS has had been used effectively.

like i said i like the story of the CS sgt

[Dunia]

I wanted to get others take on the CS vs Tolkeen and it's outcome.

1) Did you feel that the CS should have been the victor and why?

Yes, I like to see that the gamecreator actually makes his world alive and not just publish book after book without a thought as Kevin does. When a creator does some upheaval in the world, then that creator makes the world alive.
Also, I thought that until they won over Tolkeen, the CS was just big words and no real threat. Now they have shown that they can go on the offensive. More books in this genre

Two american Gamecompanies that I know of did just that: GDW with Traveller where they posted 4-12 newscasts from all over the Imperium where the setting was placed. These news were not that defining the entire world, they could be an interview with some person about the state of the world, that an accident had happened or news about the war. It was very wonderful to have those news, both as a player and as a GM, as players could decide to actually do something because of a newscast or a GM could build an adventure of one. The other company was white wolf, who postednews of the comming apocaylypse and the strange tidings around it. Though only for 6 months or so, but it was fun to read and have the in the game.

But also, it is clear that KS have almost no knowledge of military campaigns and how to plan for such a war. No artillery, logistics, that general marching in Xiticix lands etc...
Also he makes all coalition troops into robots, regardless if they are human or not, no real soul in the soldiers...Though I would like to see a war between lazlo and FQ/CS - I do not want KS to write about it.

2) Which nation/amry did you like better?

I like CS better. It is easy just to summon fiends from 27+ dimensions and order them to fight. Fighting against such things, now that is a cool thing.

3) Do you think anything should have turned out different?

No. The correct power block won the war. However .. the correct power block should never have needed the plot devices it needed to get the win.

I felt the CS was going to win, though i didn't think Tolkeen would have been as difficult for them.

I felt neither side was portrayed very well .. neither side shined as they should have ..[/quote]

No, kevin did, as he usually do drags out things for so long. Which is a reason why I do not buy any more books (I have 4 Rifts books, and that is all PB books I have/need, any other book I can find in the public library, the internet etc.) The war should be over quicker and Cyber knight book should have been a sourcebook on its own, not a part of the tokeen war.

[Giant2005]

tolkeen:
no real use of lateral thinking (magic's specialty?)
no real strikes against the CS's logistical chain?
no real use of psychological warfare?
no real use of technological forces?
no real use of sabotage of the CS homefront?

This post got me thinking.
I would have loved the CS to withdrawel it's troops due to civil unrest much like the Vietnam war.
A few hundred demons ported into the civillian populace every day would have had that effect.

[glitterboy2098]

you'd need a prolonged conflict (a decade or more) of minimal results by the CS forces to get such a result though.

[Rallan]

Really just stop with the 'the CS is a pure white and innocent thing' defenses. You're talking the murderous serial killer spouse (the CS) whose victim (Tolkeen) became close to being like them as a result. Nobody in their right mind would go and defend the CS claiming that their victim 'had it coming' because they would turn into bad guys only after being brutally assaulted and murdered.

I think it would be safe to say that Tolkeen became bad because Siembieda didn't want them to be the good guys, not because they were backed into it. The CS were fan favourites, and we've got the official Word Of Coffin that various war crimes and atrocities that he felt would have been in-character for xenophobic fascists like the CS ended up being toned down or removed altogether so that the CS wouldn't look like the baddies, and a whole bunch of stuff about Tolkeen trafficking with demons and doing various other nasty stuff (none of which had even been hinted at in earlier Rifts book) was invented out of thin air so it would be easier to justify the actions of the side that so many fanboys love.

Then of course there's all the super-powered incredibly hardcore magic weapons and potection that Tolkeen had, which (again) wasn't foreshadowed in any of the earlier books, and looks like it was invented from out of thin air purely to explain why the Coalition took longer than a month to beat them.

its was set up to fall from the very beginning locked in a cold war with CS from day one.

Is there a point you're trying to make here?

[Shark_Force]

I agree that both sides were played as idiots, and that other groups would have taken advantage of the CS's distraction.
Yes the magic SHOULD have been handled differently, but I don't agree that the forces on both sides were just "handwavium", there is a logical progression to this you just have to look outside the box or the books as it may be.
I don't agree with your final statement, I don't see how the CS could have wound up not being able to sustain the war effort. IMO the war should have been over within months to a year IF the technologyt the CS has had been used effectively.

neither side had so much as a whisper implying that anything new might be coming out. developing an entirely new line of, well, everything, on the part of the CS, completely out of the blue, was just... silly. to just suddenly go from having zero of them to having enough to equip an army of over a million strong is just more so (and remember, the ISS got the old garbage, so the CS military that didn't go to tolkeen also got the upgrade). for tolkeen, well, i know we've had differences of opinion on the effectiveness of magic before. with the right spells (and especially with TW devices designed to deliver those spells at longer range, while allowing the cost to be paid earlier rather than at the moment of need), you can do a lot of scary stuff.

unless the CS army is literally carrying everything it will need over the course of the entire siege with it, they have to worry about their supply lines. even without, there should have been constant terror attacks. grenades being teleported into camps from 10-20 miles away while the CS troops are trying to sleep, food being made to spoil (what, you don't think tolkeen could figure out spoiling magic at all?), the ground literally opening up underneath your camps and creating a massive river of lava (earth elementals can do that from underground, mind you), barriers that literally absorb everything you fire at them, other barriers that are literally impervious to all attacks, illusions to conceal their armies, teleportation to transport the armies (seriously, some of the teleportation spells will literally transport small armies)... sure, in a straight-up fight, the CS has the numbers, and technology is a powerful tool for making things explode, but tolkeen can literally just teleport soldiers into the middle of an enemy camp. more to the point, tolkeen can just teleport 50 pounds of explosives into the middle of an enemy camp, also.

in order to keep a supply of food, ammunition/energy, repair materials, troops, etc going to the front, the CS should have had to send an entire army to transport the most basic requirements of an army, and should have expected significant losses along the way.

i don't care how many giant robots with laser cannons you have, at some point if you can't get food to the troops, repair the damage taken, and replenish important supplies (like missiles), at some point you are going to lose your ability to fight effectively.

the CS supply line needs to be really long, and tolkeen has the ability to literally just show up right in the middle of it any time they feel like it.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Really just stop with the 'the CS is a pure white and innocent thing' defenses. You're talking the murderous serial killer spouse (the CS) whose victim (Tolkeen) became close to being like them as a result. Nobody in their right mind would go and defend the CS claiming that their victim 'had it coming' because they would turn into bad guys only after being brutally assaulted and murdered.

I think it would be safe to say that Tolkeen became bad because Siembieda didn't want them to be the good guys, not because they were backed into it. The CS were fan favourites, and we've got the official Word Of Coffin that various war crimes and atrocities that he felt would have been in-character for xenophobic fascists like the CS ended up being toned down or removed altogether so that the CS wouldn't look like the baddies, and a whole bunch of stuff about Tolkeen trafficking with demons and doing various other nasty stuff (none of which had even been hinted at in earlier Rifts book) was invented out of thin air so it would be easier to justify the actions of the side that so many fanboys love.

Then of course there's all the super-powered incredibly hardcore magic weapons and potection that Tolkeen had, which (again) wasn't foreshadowed in any of the earlier books, and looks like it was invented from out of thin air purely to explain why the Coalition took longer than a month to beat them.

its was set up to fall from the very beginning locked in a cold war with CS from day one.

Is there a point you're trying to make here?

yup is was just a matter of time before tolkeen fell, at the hands of the CS or FOM or the bug people

[Nether]

I agree that both sides were played as idiots, and that other groups would have taken advantage of the CS's distraction.
Yes the magic SHOULD have been handled differently, but I don't agree that the forces on both sides were just "handwavium", there is a logical progression to this you just have to look outside the box or the books as it may be.
I don't agree with your final statement, I don't see how the CS could have wound up not being able to sustain the war effort. IMO the war should have been over within months to a year IF the technologyt the CS has had been used effectively.

neither side had so much as a whisper implying that anything new might be coming out. developing an entirely new line of, well, everything, on the part of the CS, completely out of the blue, was just... silly. to just suddenly go from having zero of them to having enough to equip an army of over a million strong is just more so (and remember, the ISS got the old garbage, so the CS military that didn't go to tolkeen also got the upgrade). for tolkeen, well, i know we've had differences of opinion on the effectiveness of magic before. with the right spells (and especially with TW devices designed to deliver those spells at longer range, while allowing the cost to be paid earlier rather than at the moment of need), you can do a lot of scary stuff.

unless the CS army is literally carrying everything it will need over the course of the entire siege with it, they have to worry about their supply lines. even without, there should have been constant terror attacks. grenades being teleported into camps from 10-20 miles away while the CS troops are trying to sleep, food being made to spoil (what, you don't think tolkeen could figure out spoiling magic at all?), the ground literally opening up underneath your camps and creating a massive river of lava (earth elementals can do that from underground, mind you), barriers that literally absorb everything you fire at them, other barriers that are literally impervious to all attacks, illusions to conceal their armies, teleportation to transport the armies (seriously, some of the teleportation spells will literally transport small armies)... sure, in a straight-up fight, the CS has the numbers, and technology is a powerful tool for making things explode, but tolkeen can literally just teleport soldiers into the middle of an enemy camp. more to the point, tolkeen can just teleport 50 pounds of explosives into the middle of an enemy camp, also.

in order to keep a supply of food, ammunition/energy, repair materials, troops, etc going to the front, the CS should have had to send an entire army to transport the most basic requirements of an army, and should have expected significant losses along the way.

i don't care how many giant robots with laser cannons you have, at some point if you can't get food to the troops, repair the damage taken, and replenish important supplies (like missiles), at some point you are going to lose your ability to fight effectively.

the CS supply line needs to be really long, and tolkeen has the ability to literally just show up right in the middle of it any time they feel like it.

/completely agree with ya

Just to add, i thought tolkeen could have really made it a difficult battle for CS as they hairy the cs support lines, make it very difficult to advance, distract, distort and just make it miserable to try to fight. Then you could add that Dweomer being a ally at the beggining of the war would have done alot with illusion and misdirection, add in the odd automaton as well. Then on the back half when True Fed replaces dweomer as ally due to tactics choices by tolkeen, you could show that tolkeens defenses go more from misdirection / guerilla fighting to more upfront zombie hordes, murder wraiths, demons ext fighting more of a frontal war.

I love the idea of the story of tw bombs/grenades just popping into cs camps and blowing up at random times, which would add alot of stories for the cs troops that did survive it, and things like how they were starving all the time due to food rotting and supply line issues. As well as they were always short on ammo for guns and PA ext due to supply line issues ext. Imo this would have made it a far more interesting story than what they came up with.

The CS though should have been shown to have such a overwhelming force that even with all the problems faced, they managed to 'eventually' push to the gates and just use overwhelming assaults on tolkeen that would have made them fall instead of the bs they had come up with for story like mr holmes there and the bugs.

Overall i would have liked to see i think the cold war ending, but to make it plausible, FoM should have stepped in to become a ally that did support tolkeen. I could see Dweomer being thier initial ally but when tolkeen started using 'darker' arts they would have dropped off as an ally and the true fed of magic would have stepped in as they liked this darker side of tolkeen. Then you have a plausible reason to have multiple factions involved in the story, and it would make sense why the CS and their masses of troops, tech, bots and weapons ended up stalemating. Also the reason to bring CS and FQ back to friends.

Otherwise the CS should have eventually steamrolled tolkeen as we are talking about a multi state nation vs a lone city state that can only handle so much and would fall to overwhelming numbers and power.

[Illendaver]

I can recall a game that I watched that where the war between tolkeen and CS had just started. None of the CS citizens really felt like going to war (who really does?) so it was decided to just launch a tactical nuke and call it a day. Problem was, the mages were ready for exactly that plan (they had sent spies/rabble rousers to try to influence the politics to keep the military out). A massive teleport spell was enchanted for anything like a nuke.... Poor Iron Heart... When it became a big pile of rubble, a huge chunk of CS resources were gone. But it did enrage the CS enough to go all out and destroy everybody in Tolkeen. (a really great campaign)

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Dunscon doesnt care about tolkeen , they are traitors in his mind, as much as he hates the CS he hates tolkeen only other thing he hates more then that is the Prosek Family.