CS war against Tolkeen

[FuduVudu]

I wanted to get others take on the CS vs Tolkeen and it's outcome.

1) Did you feel that the CS should have been the victor and why?

CS should have won but what happened in the books was just stupids sometimes.

2) Which nation/amry did you like better?

Tolkeen the CS is pretty horrible.

3) Do you think anything should have turned out different?

1) The CS takes advantage of its superior communication network In the form of high altitude hover platforms(that later in the war begin to be taken out by air elemental.)
2) The CS takes advantage of its long range artillery and air support (the artillery begins to be taken out by underground attacks from earth elemental)
3) The CS increases the production of Dogboys and releases its main waves of Omega killers which weaken outer layer of tolkeens defense(from Machinations of Destruction)
4) Tolkeen seeing that its losing the war starts giving out magical knowledge without asking questions they also increase TW weapon production by just modifying normal tech weapons or Wizards Mass producing temporary enchanted weapons and bullets as well as modified tech weapons.
5) Rare and dark magics begin being used and teleport sneak attacks are used to keep them in the fight as well hordes of demons are summoned into the fight.
6) The CS starts using earth shaker bombs to destroy the giant circles and runes that protect the main city of tolkeen.
7) (the only real twist) The Cs to keep its cost down on the final invasion so it can still be able to protect from a main assault from the Federation of Magic sends in a squad of 12 Juicer power armor pilots using sonic, gas, irritants weapons to make the concentration needed for spell casting more difficult for the tolkeens defenses. These power armors are made using a rare magic resistant metal found in the CS's Ley line mines.

[kdyal]

I'm sorry, but Tolkeen should have had this.
How many times could Chi-Town survive Greater Earth Elementals pounding at its foundations and innermost chambers, or Greater Air Elementals with Impervious to Energy sneaking in and trashing stuff? That and there is no real defense against tacnukes being 'ported into the middle of a camp. Or worse, the middle of ChiTown...

KD

[FuduVudu]

I'm sorry, but Tolkeen should have had this.
How many times could Chi-Town survive Greater Earth Elementals pounding at its foundations and innermost chambers, or Greater Air Elementals with Impervious to Energy sneaking in and trashing stuff? That and there is no real defense against tacnukes being 'ported into the middle of a camp. Or worse, the middle of ChiTown...

KD

The problems with those possibilities is A during the war Chi town is on high alert how is an greater air elemental who normal form are a swirling tornado like storm and even if in calm invisible storm has a massive amount of PPE so every Dog boy and Stalker in a mile radius will sense it coming. Also the problem with greater earth elemental is a wizard cant just summon one a a hundred miles away from Chi town and say Go to chi town and destroy the foundations is 1) A greater earth elemental has no idea what chi town is or how it looks like let alone what the foundation is and looks like, and 2) Elementals are notoriously unaware of anything happening around them most of the time unless they are being attacked so unless the mage can get in sight range of chi town to guide the elemental I doubt the elemental will be able to do enough damage to the High tech Mega structure that is Chi town.

Also you cant teleport something into a place you have never seen, and if you had seen the inside of chi town what would set off the bomb? If you teleport it right above chi town it would most likely end up being Telekeneticly caught on its way down. Since the death of millions of chi town residents is something that will most likely be stopped by both outside psychics and CS psychics. Hell the Gray seers might send a warning to the CS.

Edit:reread Mindblock

[Lenwen]

The problems with those possibilities is A during the war Chi town is on high alert how is an greater air elemental who normal form are a swirling tornado like storm and even if in calm invisible storm has a massive amount of PPE so every Dog boy and Stalker in a mile radius will sense it coming.

Sensing its coming .. does not equate to being able to stop it ..

1) A greater earth elemental has no idea what chi town is or how it looks like let alone what the foundation is and looks like

Easy enough if the mage is in line of sight .. even if its 10-20 miles away ..

2) Elementals are notoriously unaware of anything happening around them most of the time unless they are being attacked so unless the mage can get in sight range of chi town to guide the elemental I doubt the elemental will be able to do enough damage to the High tech Mega structure that is Chi town.

a single elemental no .. but you get like 50 of them together .. and then we can start talking ..

Get 100 together an things start shaking ..

Sure they can take out the burbs easy enough but the CS wont really care.

They better care .. fully 50% of the CS military is drawn from burbs .. thats a fact.

Also you cant teleport something into a place you have never seen, and if you had seen the inside of chi town what would set off the bomb?

A picture will suffice to teleport it into Chi-Town.

A Timer set off for 5 seconds after teleportation .. will set the nuclear weapon off rather nicely.

[keir451]

IMO an Air Elemental will just expend it's strenght against the massively MDC walls of the Chi-town fortress and in the process wreck a few of the less well built Burbs structures and kill a few squatters, othinh for the CS to actively worry about.
Chi-towns foundation is 5 sublevels deep and contains the most hardened areas of Chi-town in general, even if anuke went off in Ch-town you wouldn't kill the Emperor or even most of the military. You'd definitely fry a few million civilians and render the are uninhabitable untilt the decontamination crews got done a few years later, but that'd be it. Then you'd give the CS a real reason to slaughter every last magic based society on the North American continent. The Proseks would play up such a "Tragic event" and set public opinion against "such a heinous deed" and the CS's recruitment numbers would skyrocket and they's ramp Lone Star up to 100% and forcibly move people into their other cities all while secretly forcing a mage to install magical defense to prevent such an occurrance from ever happening again.
50-100 elementals could, indeed, start Chi-town shaking a bit. I'd reckon that 1,000 or more might actually start to damage the fortress city a bit.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

rifter 54 has a great piece on CS cities defenses

[Nether]

Well the stats for nukes in the game wouldn't even do very much to a huge structure like chi town. A nuke would go off and just create a radiated zone that is pretty small considering. Even with lots of these devices i don't see it being that destructive.

If you could find out where prosek is and tp a nuke there then you can get him.

As for mages attacking chi town, the air elementals work good for distractions, though if you got a bunch of earth elementals with a warlock and tp them in there, with say a few assault squads of sorts tp'd in there, i think they could over time cause some serious damage. Especially if they could keep teleporting around the city to avoid a buildup of security troops. It would actually make for a bit of a fun adv, and in the end some damage to the city but overall nothing ending.

[Nightmask]

Well the stats for nukes in the game wouldn't even do very much to a huge structure like chi town. A nuke would go off and just create a radiated zone that is pretty small considering. Even with lots of these devices i don't see it being that destructive.

If you could find out where prosek is and tp a nuke there then you can get him.

As for mages attacking chi town, the air elementals work good for distractions, though if you got a bunch of earth elementals with a warlock and tp them in there, with say a few assault squads of sorts tp'd in there, i think they could over time cause some serious damage. Especially if they could keep teleporting around the city to avoid a buildup of security troops. It would actually make for a bit of a fun adv, and in the end some damage to the city but overall nothing ending.

Well they don't go for real nuclear devices, they're more the pocket sized ones. A full scale nuclear device would pretty much destroy Chi-town. The kind of bombs that end up in the hundreds of megatons range. The only reason we never built a gigaton bomb is because there's no war situation where such a device would be useful since the fallout would eventually reach your own country (especially if you're fighting a neighbor). Given some of the genocidal sorts running around in Rifts it's a good thing they're mages, I'd hate to think what kind of real destruction would be seen if they got a scientist devoted to that. Magic's nice and all but I haven't seen any magical spells around that could kill in a single stroke like a gigaton nuclear device could and would.

[Shark_Force]

Well the stats for nukes in the game wouldn't even do very much to a huge structure like chi town. A nuke would go off and just create a radiated zone that is pretty small considering. Even with lots of these devices i don't see it being that destructive.

If you could find out where prosek is and tp a nuke there then you can get him.

As for mages attacking chi town, the air elementals work good for distractions, though if you got a bunch of earth elementals with a warlock and tp them in there, with say a few assault squads of sorts tp'd in there, i think they could over time cause some serious damage. Especially if they could keep teleporting around the city to avoid a buildup of security troops. It would actually make for a bit of a fun adv, and in the end some damage to the city but overall nothing ending.

earth elementals (and earth warlocks with the right spell) can literally walk around inside the dirt, rocks, etc that chi-town is built on. the attacks won't be coming from inside chi-town, they'll be coming from *below* chi-town, and getting at the source of the attacks will involve blasting away the foundations of chi-town to find the attackers.

and there are a lot of earth elemental spells that would deal a lot of structural damage...

[Dustin Fireblade]

and there are a lot of earth elemental spells that would deal a lot of structural damage...

Possibly - I haven't read earth elemental spells in a while. I do recall however that the 13th level spell "collapse" as found in WB 16 made specific mention that it would not affect so called mega-structures like Chi-Town.

[Lenwen]

rifter 54 has a great piece on CS cities defenses

If .. only it was canon ..

Not being .. means you can always pretend its canon in your house games hehe

[Mech-Viper Prime]

rifter 54 has a great piece on CS cities defenses

If .. only it was canon ..

Not being .. means you can always pretend its canon in your house games hehe

that optimal thing is BS its produced by PB so it should be canon, but knowing the some of the people around here.

[Nightmask]

rifter 54 has a great piece on CS cities defenses

If .. only it was canon ..

Not being .. means you can always pretend its canon in your house games hehe

that optimal thing is BS its produced by PB so it should be canon, but knowing the some of the people around here.

Except Palladium directly states the material in Rifter is optional, non-canon material unless explicitly noted otherwise. So it's all non-canon without that stamp. Just being in Rifter isn't enough. Which is no different than any other game company that lets gamers contribute material without having to put a stamp of canon upon it.

[Lenwen]

rifter 54 has a great piece on CS cities defenses

If .. only it was canon ..

Not being .. means you can always pretend its canon in your house games hehe

that optimal thing is BS its produced by PB so it should be canon, but knowing the some of the people around here.

Except Palladium directly states the material in Rifter is optional, non-canon material unless explicitly noted otherwise. So it's all non-canon without that stamp. Just being in Rifter isn't enough. Which is no different than any other game company that lets gamers contribute material without having to put a stamp of canon upon it.

+1

[Mech-Viper Prime]

rifter 54 has a great piece on CS cities defenses

If .. only it was canon ..

Not being .. means you can always pretend its canon in your house games hehe

that optimal thing is BS its produced by PB so it should be canon, but knowing the some of the people around here.

Except Palladium directly states the material in Rifter is optional, non-canon material unless explicitly noted otherwise. So it's all non-canon without that stamp. Just being in Rifter isn't enough. Which is no different than any other game company that lets gamers contribute material without having to put a stamp of canon upon it.

I'm well aware about the status of articles in Rifter

[Mech-Viper Prime]

But then again we can always wait for KS answer of this

[Lenwen]

But then again we can always wait for KS answer of this

he already has .. the article stats blatently ..

Optional material for Rifts.

Not the big bold letters of "Official Material"

[Mech-Viper Prime]

But then again we can always wait for KS answer of this

he already has .. the article stats blatently ..

Optional material for Rifts.

Not the big bold letters of "Official Material"

i was talking about the cs cities defense,

[Nightmask]

Except Palladium directly states the material in Rifter is optional, non-canon material unless explicitly noted otherwise. So it's all non-canon without that stamp. Just being in Rifter isn't enough. Which is no different than any other game company that lets gamers contribute material without having to put a stamp of canon upon it.

I'm well aware about the status of articles in Rifter

Doesn't seem like it, given how you characterize the status of the material. It's not Palladium produced material it's fan material. They're nice enough to give the fans a book they can share their material with everyone through but by no means does that mean it's produced by Palladium like the official source material. It's unsolicited fan material that if they're lucky Palladium prints it up in Rifter for the rest of the fans, but it's no more canon than if you post it here or your home page.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Except Palladium directly states the material in Rifter is optional, non-canon material unless explicitly noted otherwise. So it's all non-canon without that stamp. Just being in Rifter isn't enough. Which is no different than any other game company that lets gamers contribute material without having to put a stamp of canon upon it.

I'm well aware about the status of articles in Rifter

Doesn't seem like it, given how you characterize the status of the material. It's not Palladium produced material it's fan material. They're nice enough to give the fans a book they can share their material with everyone through but by no means does that mean it's produced by Palladium like the official source material. It's unsolicited fan material that if they're lucky Palladium prints it up in Rifter for the rest of the fans, but it's no more canon than if you post it here or your home page.

like i said that optimal thing is BS its produced by PB, so it should be canon, its been the only semi-official answer to how the CS keeps mages from teleporting in at will,as for rifter i seen better stuff that was optional then some the stuff that been release as canon.

[Nightmask]

Except Palladium directly states the material in Rifter is optional, non-canon material unless explicitly noted otherwise. So it's all non-canon without that stamp. Just being in Rifter isn't enough. Which is no different than any other game company that lets gamers contribute material without having to put a stamp of canon upon it.

I'm well aware about the status of articles in Rifter

Doesn't seem like it, given how you characterize the status of the material. It's not Palladium produced material it's fan material. They're nice enough to give the fans a book they can share their material with everyone through but by no means does that mean it's produced by Palladium like the official source material. It's unsolicited fan material that if they're lucky Palladium prints it up in Rifter for the rest of the fans, but it's no more canon than if you post it here or your home page.

like i said that optimal thing is BS its produced by PB, so it should be canon, its been the only semi-official answer to how the CS keeps mages from teleporting in at will,as for rifter i seen better stuff that was optional then some the stuff that been release as canon.

The word is 'optional' not 'optimal', and it's not material produced by Palladium Books. It's fan material created by fans distributed as a courtesy by Palladium for its customers and it helps keep them in business. The company itself makes it clear it's not their material and simply fan contributions for those who like the material so even Palladium Books makes it clear it's not canon all the way around.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Except Palladium directly states the material in Rifter is optional, non-canon material unless explicitly noted otherwise. So it's all non-canon without that stamp. Just being in Rifter isn't enough. Which is no different than any other game company that lets gamers contribute material without having to put a stamp of canon upon it.

I'm well aware about the status of articles in Rifter

Doesn't seem like it, given how you characterize the status of the material. It's not Palladium produced material it's fan material. They're nice enough to give the fans a book they can share their material with everyone through but by no means does that mean it's produced by Palladium like the official source material. It's unsolicited fan material that if they're lucky Palladium prints it up in Rifter for the rest of the fans, but it's no more canon than if you post it here or your home page.

like i said that optimal thing is BS its produced by PB, so it should be canon, its been the only semi-official answer to how the CS keeps mages from teleporting in at will,as for rifter i seen better stuff that was optional then some the stuff that been release as canon.

The word is 'optional' not 'optimal', and it's not material produced by Palladium Books. It's fan material created by fans distributed as a courtesy by Palladium for its customers and it helps keep them in business. The company itself makes it clear it's not their material and simply fan contributions for those who like the material so even Palladium Books makes it clear it's not canon all the way around.

really i dont know that i thought it come from the magic people of venus

[Nether]

Usually the stuff released from rifter that is then added to a cannon book undergoes some change. If it is needed to be changed or not doesn't matter as KS decides to change it.

Hmm, they aren't selling the rifter here in brasil, so guess i will have to wait for next trip back the the great white north to get it as it sounds interesting.

The CS seriously needs some "logical" means of defense against the mages and teleporting, but on the flip is that is the strength of magic and if you take it completely away you nueter it.

So for those that have read rifter 54 (feel like saying car 54, where are you?) do you feel it is logical and fair for the CS?

[Nightmask]

The word is 'optional' not 'optimal', and it's not material produced by Palladium Books. It's fan material created by fans distributed as a courtesy by Palladium for its customers and it helps keep them in business. The company itself makes it clear it's not their material and simply fan contributions for those who like the material so even Palladium Books makes it clear it's not canon all the way around.

really i dont know that i thought it come from the magic people of venus

Given you keep insisting it's official product from Palladium even when Palladium says it isn't it's hard to be sure you weren't imaging it came from magical Venusians or a similar source.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

The word is 'optional' not 'optimal', and it's not material produced by Palladium Books. It's fan material created by fans distributed as a courtesy by Palladium for its customers and it helps keep them in business. The company itself makes it clear it's not their material and simply fan contributions for those who like the material so even Palladium Books makes it clear it's not canon all the way around.

really i dont know that i thought it come from the magic people of venus

Given you keep insisting it's official product from Palladium even when Palladium says it isn't it's hard to be sure you weren't imaging it came from magical Venusians or a similar source.

no i dont i just dont agree with it as being optional

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Usually the stuff released from rifter that is then added to a cannon book undergoes some change. If it is needed to be changed or not doesn't matter as KS decides to change it.

Hmm, they aren't selling the rifter here in brasil, so guess i will have to wait for next trip back the the great white north to get it as it sounds interesting.

The CS seriously needs some "logical" means of defense against the mages and teleporting, but on the flip is that is the strength of magic and if you take it completely away you nueter it.

So for those that have read rifter 54 (feel like saying car 54, where are you?) do you feel it is logical and fair for the CS?

I liked it, i like the author too , he good at fulling the coalition out where its been lefted out in void,i dont think it nueter magic , just weak magic, if someone powerful was using magic to get inside chi-town then there is a chance but some low-level mage that is a different story

[Lenwen]

But then again we can always wait for KS answer of this

he already has .. the article stats blatently ..

Optional material for Rifts.

Not the big bold letters of "Official Material"

i was talking about the cs cities defense,

Good luck on that.

The reason he has kept us all in the dark about the cities defense ..

Is because once you set up hard line defenses ..

Some one always comes along an can easily bypass .. said defenses .. for which you have no defense against ..

once you stat something out that is left vague on pourpose .. it render's that which is newly defined now vulnerable .. were as prior to the hardlined set of defenses .. it was not ..

[Mech-Viper Prime]

But then again we can always wait for KS answer of this

he already has .. the article stats blatently ..

Optional material for Rifts.

Not the big bold letters of "Official Material"

i was talking about the cs cities defense,

Good luck on that.

The reason he has kept us all in the dark about the cities defense ..

Is because once you set up hard line defenses ..

Some one always comes along an can easily bypass .. said defenses .. for which you have no defense against ..

once you stat something out that is left vague on pourpose .. it render's that which is newly defined now vulnerable .. were as prior to the hardlined set of defenses .. it was not ..

not really , i can see the CS paidng mages to test the defense byways of third or fourth parties to see if the mage get thru , and has a change to the defense that or a vanguard mage cast a anti magic shell over each and every CS city

[Nether]

But then again we can always wait for KS answer of this

he already has .. the article stats blatently ..

Optional material for Rifts.

Not the big bold letters of "Official Material"

i was talking about the cs cities defense,

Good luck on that.

The reason he has kept us all in the dark about the cities defense ..

Is because once you set up hard line defenses ..

Some one always comes along an can easily bypass .. said defenses .. for which you have no defense against ..

once you stat something out that is left vague on pourpose .. it render's that which is newly defined now vulnerable .. were as prior to the hardlined set of defenses .. it was not ..

Yes you are right but even so,

They are the creators and know thier system better than any, and based on the concept they can create it appropriately.

It takes some time and pressure off of the GM to have to come up with this stuff, and thats what the setting books are for.
Not only that, it is fun for players as well to try and come up with a way to 'penetrate' the fortress, especially when it is part of adventure.

I don't expect the stats to be perfect, but something (even flawed) is better than nothing, because then as a gm you can just tweak here and there compared to having to create the whole thing which in many cases ends up being unappropriate to the CS concept.

I also don't want the "impenetrable" componds that are done with crazy defenses against everything and redundancies as it is very implausible and destroys gameplay of seeing it ever.

[Lenwen]

Usually the stuff released from rifter that is then added to a cannon book undergoes some change. If it is needed to be changed or not doesn't matter as KS decides to change it.

Hmm, they aren't selling the rifter here in brasil, so guess i will have to wait for next trip back the the great white north to get it as it sounds interesting.

The CS seriously needs some "logical" means of defense against the mages and teleporting, but on the flip is that is the strength of magic and if you take it completely away you nueter it.

So for those that have read rifter 54 (feel like saying car 54, where are you?) do you feel it is logical and fair for the CS?

I liked it, i like the author too , he good at fulling the coalition out where its been lefted out in void,i dont think it nueter magic , just weak magic, if someone powerful was using magic to get inside chi-town then there is a chance but some low-level mage that is a different story

Mech ..

Tell us all what is a powerful mage ?

You always so nuh-huh .. when I say a 10th lvl or higher mage can do (name the spell) an really hurt the CS ..

So please enlighten us all to as what a powerful enough mage would be ?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

[

I really hope the info in rifter 54 is that they haven't resorted to using mages or magic at all as a defense. That would be the gayest thing ever!!

I also see the CS not using mages even for testing the defenses as they are that adamant about thier belief and feeling about them. Even thru 3 parties. Possibly they would hire some jerks to break into Chi town, but only so they could capture and slaughter them.

As for vanguard (which i also think is the worst idea for CS ever) it wouldn't matter what type of defenses they cast, as they will be hunted down just as fast as any invading mage and any magic they do will just a swiftly come under fire.
So if a vanguard cast a anti-magic cloud, nega-psychics and nullifiers would be cancelling it out.

For the CS defense, i think the best anti magic defense is psi-battalion, using the nega-psychics and psi-nullifiers and psi-stalker/dog boy defense works best. Also stays with thier concept.

i like the idea of Vanguard and society of sages, mages who are anti-non-humans, pro humans vs this happy happy joy joy rifts earth is starting to become, but if CS used magic to keep out it would have been funny but i like the tech used to keep magic out

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Usually the stuff released from rifter that is then added to a cannon book undergoes some change. If it is needed to be changed or not doesn't matter as KS decides to change it.

Hmm, they aren't selling the rifter here in brasil, so guess i will have to wait for next trip back the the great white north to get it as it sounds interesting.

The CS seriously needs some "logical" means of defense against the mages and teleporting, but on the flip is that is the strength of magic and if you take it completely away you nueter it.

So for those that have read rifter 54 (feel like saying car 54, where are you?) do you feel it is logical and fair for the CS?

I liked it, i like the author too , he good at fulling the coalition out where its been lefted out in void,i dont think it nueter magic , just weak magic, if someone powerful was using magic to get inside chi-town then there is a chance but some low-level mage that is a different story

Mech ..

Tell us all what is a powerful mage ?

You always so nuh-huh .. when I say a 10th lvl or higher mage can do (name the spell) an really hurt the CS ..

So please enlighten us all to as what a powerful enough mage would be ?

one who look at the trying to get into any CS city with spell as trivial and stuff childern do, and a waste of his time and abilities.

[Lenwen]

not really , i can see the CS paidng mages to test the defense byways of third or fourth parties to see if the mage get thru , and has a change to the defense that or a vanguard mage cast a anti magic shell over each and every CS city

how can a mage cast spells when they are being shot at by the Coalition ?

How can a mage cast spells large enough to cover an entire Fortress City ?

Mech ?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

not really , i can see the CS paidng mages to test the defense byways of third or fourth parties to see if the mage get thru , and has a change to the defense that or a vanguard mage cast a anti magic shell over each and every CS city

how can a mage cast spells when they are being shot at by the Coalition ?

How can a mage cast spells large enough to cover an entire Fortress City ?

Mech ?

quickly
thought magic was so powerful , guess not huh?

[Lenwen]

not really , i can see the CS paidng mages to test the defense byways of third or fourth parties to see if the mage get thru , and has a change to the defense that or a vanguard mage cast a anti magic shell over each and every CS city

how can a mage cast spells when they are being shot at by the Coalition ?

How can a mage cast spells large enough to cover an entire Fortress City ?

Mech ?

quickly
thought magic was so powerful , guess not huh?

It is powerful .

When used as its designed to be used.

No magic in any system in palladium will enable what you are trying to do ..

And the whole .. "Vangaurd" aspect .. in my world does in fact not exsist. It was a clever ruse by the Federation of magic to enable the CS forces to not take out every mage they come across ..

As Ive never seen in any place / time / era ..

A people who are killed on sight .. have that level of dedication to an ideology / powerblock .. that wants them all dead ..

Ergo .. they do not exsist.

lmao

[Mech-Viper Prime]

not really , i can see the CS paidng mages to test the defense byways of third or fourth parties to see if the mage get thru , and has a change to the defense that or a vanguard mage cast a anti magic shell over each and every CS city

how can a mage cast spells when they are being shot at by the Coalition ?

How can a mage cast spells large enough to cover an entire Fortress City ?

Mech ?

quickly
thought magic was so powerful , guess not huh?

It is powerful .

When used as its designed to be used.

No magic in any system in palladium will enable what you are trying to do ..

And the whole .. "Vangaurd" aspect .. in my world does in fact not exsist. It was a clever ruse by the Federation of magic to enable the CS forces to not take out every mage they come across ..

As Ive never seen in any place / time / era ..

A people who are killed on sight .. have that level of dedication to an ideology / powerblock .. that wants them all dead ..

Ergo .. they do not exsist.

lmao

what you go against canon

[Lenwen]

what you go against canon

Kevin Siem himself goes against canon every single time he plays ..

He stated multiple times .. he does not play the magic system as its written ..

So I feel no ill will if I feel I need to take something outta the game .. to enjoy it more.

But I do not come in here on the baords .. an try to make my adjustments and force them upon others .. an say they are canon sourced materials ..

Hence me always asking people for canon refrences .. because I am curious if its their own way of thinking (like you do quite often) or if its actually in the books some where.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

what you go against canon

Kevin Siem himself goes against canon every single time he plays ..

He stated multiple times .. he does not play the magic system as its written ..

So I feel no ill will if I feel I need to take something outta the game .. to enjoy it more.

But I do not come in here on the baords .. an try to make my adjustments and force them upon others .. an say they are canon sourced materials ..

Hence me always asking people for canon refrences .. because I am curious if its their own way of thinking (like you do quite often) or if its actually in the books some where.

i play rifts to have and come to the board for adventure ideas, other than that i could careless about all this nonsense with people trying to pump up the internet egos.

[Lenwen]

i play rifts to have and come to the board for adventure ideas, other than that i could careless about all this nonsense with people trying to pump up the internet egos.

I completely 100% concur ..

[FuduVudu]

Wait if I was just think the main problem with the earth elemental summoning thing is if you summon 50 major earth elementals wouldnt that pretty much be more then half of a complete elemental intelligence? Would that just mean the summoned elementals would merge as one and bring forth the rest of the intelligence into this world?

[Shark_Force]

and there are a lot of earth elemental spells that would deal a lot of structural damage...

Possibly - I haven't read earth elemental spells in a while. I do recall however that the 13th level spell "collapse" as found in WB 16 made specific mention that it would not affect so called mega-structures like Chi-Town.

well then let me fill in a few blanks for you

the first useful spell is dig. it is useful because it lets you create a pocket underground, potentially including digging away foundation areas of mega-cities. it is also important because the second spell (travel through walls) lets the warlock travel through basically any natural earth material (and is available to earth elementals also), but you have to have a non-earth place to be when the spell ends (so you move along, create a pocket, re-cast, move along, create a pocket, re-cast, etc). so far we're up to level 5 spells.

at level 6 there is an improved "travel through walls" spell called travel through stone. it includes mega-damage concrete explicitly. it also includes a nifty spell called "stone to flesh". while it doesn't transmute a lot all at once (relative to the volume of a mega-city, that is), cumulatively it will obviously be a problem if instead of a stone foundation, chi-town was built on top of a large heap of flesh. apart from being incredibly disturbing and creepy, the impact on the structure's durability will eventually be very noticeable.

and then we get to level 7. level 7 is a fun little level that includes spells like "earthquake" (dealing 2d6x100 mega-damage at the epicenter, and 2d4x10 further away). the main damage (2d6x100) occurs in an area 60 feet long per caster level. and the average warlock could probably cast it 4-5 times before resting. note that this spell has a duration, and it could be argued that the damage is not a one-time deal (after all, an earthquake lasting 2 minutes should destroy more than an earthquake lasting 15 seconds, for example).

but we're not done yet. earth warlocks also get a nifty spell called "river of lava". again, the name is a fairly accurate description of what the spell does. hopefully you don't need me to explain why this spell would be bad news for a city, mega or otherwise.

then we get to level 8. which includes a delightful little spell called "firequake". it actually isn't as devastating as the first two "destroy everything in the area" earth spells, but it *is* a much larger AOE by default.

now, how common are level 7 or 8 warlocks? probably not all that common, honestly. but suppose tolkeen has, say, 10 of them. and a bunch of other people willing to contribute PPE so that they can cast these spells dozens of times per day.

will chi-town be destroyed right off the bat? probably not. can it withstand a sustained bombardment of that kind from *underground* where they can't strike back? not a chance.

[keir451]

and there are a lot of earth elemental spells that would deal a lot of structural damage...

Possibly - I haven't read earth elemental spells in a while. I do recall however that the 13th level spell "collapse" as found in WB 16 made specific mention that it would not affect so called mega-structures like Chi-Town.

well then let me fill in a few blanks for you

the first useful spell is dig. it is useful because it lets you create a pocket underground, potentially including digging away foundation areas of mega-cities. it is also important because the second spell (travel through walls) lets the warlock travel through basically any natural earth material (and is available to earth elementals also), but you have to have a non-earth place to be when the spell ends (so you move along, create a pocket, re-cast, move along, create a pocket, re-cast, etc). so far we're up to level 5 spells.

at level 6 there is an improved "travel through walls" spell called travel through stone. it includes mega-damage concrete explicitly. it also includes a nifty spell called "stone to flesh". while it doesn't transmute a lot all at once (relative to the volume of a mega-city, that is), cumulatively it will obviously be a problem if instead of a stone foundation, chi-town was built on top of a large heap of flesh. apart from being incredibly disturbing and creepy, the impact on the structure's durability will eventually be very noticeable.

and then we get to level 7. level 7 is a fun little level that includes spells like "earthquake" (dealing 2d6x100 mega-damage at the epicenter, and 2d4x10 further away). the main damage (2d6x100) occurs in an area 60 feet long per caster level. and the average warlock could probably cast it 4-5 times before resting. note that this spell has a duration, and it could be argued that the damage is not a one-time deal (after all, an earthquake lasting 2 minutes should destroy more than an earthquake lasting 15 seconds, for example).

but we're not done yet. earth warlocks also get a nifty spell called "river of lava". again, the name is a fairly accurate description of what the spell does. hopefully you don't need me to explain why this spell would be bad news for a city, mega or otherwise.

then we get to level 8. which includes a delightful little spell called "firequake". it actually isn't as devastating as the first two "destroy everything in the area" earth spells, but it *is* a much larger AOE by default.

now, how common are level 7 or 8 warlocks? probably not all that common, honestly. but suppose tolkeen has, say, 10 of them. and a bunch of other people willing to contribute PPE so that they can cast these spells dozens of times per day.

will chi-town be destroyed right off the bat? probably not. can it withstand a sustained bombardment of that kind from *underground* where they can't strike back? not a chance.

Solid research there Shark_Force, the only quibbles I have are 1) Chi-towns NOT built on a stone foundation the entire city is mega damage plating and the subterannean levels are stated as being capable of with standing a nuclear bombardment and 2) Chi-town could probably withstand the Earthquake spell, locate it's epicenter and using the same equipment they used when they found the Tex Am complex, find the tunnels and dispatch Dog Boys or others to deal with the threat (just my opinion), or the Earth quake itself will kill the mage by collapsing the tunnel on top of him. Though I agree that there will be some damage. Travel thru stone does not include MD metals so while the mage can travel thru stone and Megacrete he can't pass thru the MD metals that also comprise the walls and foundation of Chi-town. Just to get to Chi-Town's foundation would mean getting throught the mess that is the Burbs underground areas first.
Now River of Lava might indeed do the trick as even MDC alloys will eventually melt in that kind of heat.
In the end I agree that creative use of certain spells could really mess up the CS's day, but it would take alot of mages a long time to bring down Ch-town that way. During which time, the CS has the capabilities and personnnel to hunt them down and eliminate the threat

[Shark_Force]

Solid research there Shark_Force, the only quibbles I have are 1) Chi-towns NOT built on a stone foundation the entire city is mega damage plating and the subterannean levels are stated as being capable of with standing a nuclear bombardment and 2) Chi-town could probably withstand the Earthquake spell, locate it's epicenter and using the same equipment they used when they found the Tex Am complex, find the tunnels and dispatch Dog Boys or others to deal with the threat (just my opinion), or the Earth quake itself will kill the mage by collapsing the tunnel on top of him. Though I agree that there will be some damage. Travel thru stone does not include MD metals so while the mage can travel thru stone and Megacrete he can't pass thru the MD metals that also comprise the walls and foundation of Chi-town. Just to get to Chi-Town's foundation would mean getting throught the mess that is the Burbs underground areas first.
Now River of Lava might indeed do the trick as even MDC alloys will eventually melt in that kind of heat.
In the end I agree that creative use of certain spells could really mess up the CS's day, but it would take alot of mages a long time to bring down Ch-town that way. During which time, the CS has the capabilities and personnnel to hunt them down and eliminate the threat

how?

the earth warlocks (and elementals) can quite literally walk through the stone upon which chi-town is built (and yes, it is built on stone at some point. the foundation itself may or may not be MDC metal, but that has to sit on something else, and unless they've got some sort of device that is causing the entire city to hover and are simply using that underground, the something is going to be rock or dirt, which the earth warlocks (and elementals) can simply walk through.

and how exactly is the CS supposed to track the warlock? he's literally inside the ground. there are no tunnels, just chambers every so often. they can literally walk around through solid stone, why would there be tunnels... could the CS find those chambers? maybe. but the warlocks can just make a new one each time. finding the old chambers isn't going to do you a lot of good.

also, the warlock doesn't need to worry about the earthquake crushing him. he's inside the rock. the rock falling on him is impossible, because he's inside it.

also, of course the underground levels are capable of withstanding a nuclear bombardment. they've got 60 levels of mega-city above them. that doesn't mean they're indestructible, it merely means you're not going to get at them by dropping bombs on chi-town.

[keir451]

Solid research there Shark_Force, the only quibbles I have are 1) Chi-towns NOT built on a stone foundation the entire city is mega damage plating and the subterannean levels are stated as being capable of with standing a nuclear bombardment and 2) Chi-town could probably withstand the Earthquake spell, locate it's epicenter and using the same equipment they used when they found the Tex Am complex, find the tunnels and dispatch Dog Boys or others to deal with the threat (just my opinion), or the Earth quake itself will kill the mage by collapsing the tunnel on top of him. Though I agree that there will be some damage. Travel thru stone does not include MD metals so while the mage can travel thru stone and Megacrete he can't pass thru the MD metals that also comprise the walls and foundation of Chi-town. Just to get to Chi-Town's foundation would mean getting throught the mess that is the Burbs underground areas first.
Now River of Lava might indeed do the trick as even MDC alloys will eventually melt in that kind of heat.
In the end I agree that creative use of certain spells could really mess up the CS's day, but it would take alot of mages a long time to bring down Ch-town that way. During which time, the CS has the capabilities and personnnel to hunt them down and eliminate the threat

how?

the earth warlocks (and elementals) can quite literally walk through the stone upon which chi-town is built (and yes, it is built on stone at some point. the foundation itself may or may not be MDC metal, but that has to sit on something else, and unless they've got some sort of device that is causing the entire city to hover and are simply using that underground, the something is going to be rock or dirt, which the earth warlocks (and elementals) can simply walk through.

and how exactly is the CS supposed to track the warlock? he's literally inside the ground. there are no tunnels, just chambers every so often. they can literally walk around through solid stone, why would there be tunnels... could the CS find those chambers? maybe. but the warlocks can just make a new one each time. finding the old chambers isn't going to do you a lot of good.

also, the warlock doesn't need to worry about the earthquake crushing him. he's inside the rock. the rock falling on him is impossible, because he's inside it.

also, of course the underground levels are capable of withstanding a nuclear bombardment. they've got 60 levels of mega-city above them. that doesn't mean they're indestructible, it merely means you're not going to get at them by dropping bombs on chi-town.

Alright then how does the mage breathe? How long can he be underground and not have air? He has to be able to speak to cas the spells and he can't do that if he's holding his breath while passing through solid stone. And by the desrciption of Chi-town the undeground levels aren't that tough because of the city above them, they're that tough on their own. I never said they were indestructible, just that even with the spells you're using it wouldn't be that easy to take down Chi-town. I agree that some of your spelss could do the things you say, but not as fast as one might hope.

[Illendaver]

Alright then how does the mage breathe? How long can he be underground and not have air?

Magic. Completely screws logic at every opportunity.

[Lenwen]

Alright then how does the mage breathe?

Sustain = 24 hrs per level of the caster ..

How long can he be underground and not have air?

depends on the level of the caster .. but at bere minimum .. long enough to get threw the walls of Chi-Town ..

He has to be able to speak to cas the spells and he can't do that if he's holding his breath while passing through solid stone.

Sustain completely negates your only argument .. 24 hrs per cast per level of caster .. with out air ..

[keir451]

Alright then how does the mage breathe? How long can he be underground and not have air?

Magic. Completely screws logic at every opportunity.

OMG that was just too good, I gotta sig THAT one!!!!!

[keir451]

Alright then how does the mage breathe?

Sustain = 24 hrs per level of the caster ..

How long can he be underground and not have air?

depends on the level of the caster .. but at bere minimum .. long enough to get threw the walls of Chi-Town ..

He has to be able to speak to cas the spells and he can't do that if he's holding his breath while passing through solid stone.

Sustain completely negates your only argument .. 24 hrs per cast per level of caster .. with out air.

What, specifically, does the spell do? I can't find it in the RUE. If it's in the book of magic, then I don't have that book as I dand most of my players) don't use magic or play the Magic O.C.C.s.

[Lenwen]

Alright then how does the mage breathe?

Sustain = 24 hrs per level of the caster ..

How long can he be underground and not have air?

depends on the level of the caster .. but at bere minimum .. long enough to get threw the walls of Chi-Town ..

He has to be able to speak to cas the spells and he can't do that if he's holding his breath while passing through solid stone.

Sustain completely negates your only argument .. 24 hrs per cast per level of caster .. with out air ..

River of Lava = 2d6x10 per melee / 1 min per lvl ... 50 ppe ..

min of 20 mdc per melee (if the caster is only lvl 6 that is 6 minutes active 6x4 melee's per minute = 24 melees per cast)

20x24 = 480 mdc gone per cast ..

480 x 5 casts = 2,800 mdc (this is already more then enough to get threw even the mighty walls of the Chi-town super bunker known as the black vault walls)

take that 480 x 40 casts = 19,200 mdc .. (this is more then enough to get threw the mighty door of the Chi-Town super bunker known as the black vault ..)

But we all know that the walls / under ground walls of Chi-Town are not made of the same highly super dence walls/doors that the Black Vault is made of ..

And .. this can in fact be done over time .. because the CS have no way of knowing anything is happening .. let along any way to repair the damage being done ..

the spell is 50 ppe per cast .. if you use another spell .. Energy Sphere .. you could literally get at LEAST 5-10 casts in per sitting ..

If you have two caster's doing this .. you could literally do this all in 1 foul swoop .. and have a gaping hole 30ft long and 5ft wide in the walls of Chi-Town anywhere underground .. that they could not stop ..

[Lenwen]

Alright then how does the mage breathe?

Sustain = 24 hrs per level of the caster ..

How long can he be underground and not have air?

depends on the level of the caster .. but at bere minimum .. long enough to get threw the walls of Chi-Town ..

He has to be able to speak to cas the spells and he can't do that if he's holding his breath while passing through solid stone.

Sustain completely negates your only argument .. 24 hrs per cast per level of caster .. with out air.

What, specifically, does the spell do? I can't find it in the RUE. If it's in the book of magic, then I don't have that book as I dand most of my players) don't use magic or play the Magic O.C.C.s.

sustain = do not need to breath for this instance among other such benefits ..

that is thee only aspect needed tho an will suffice for the mage to get to where he needs to ..