missile weights?

[glitterboy2098]

where can i find the list of weights for missiles in robotech? i found them once before but have since lost them again. bomb weights i found in the entry for the Beta fighter, but i haven't found regular missiles yet.
given that many fighters and veritechs now just list "can carry X weight of missiles or bombs", it's kinda important. (plus, i hope to employ it in a project of mine for RIFTS)

[ShadowLogan]

From the entry for the Silverback's various missile configurations:
-5lbs/2.25kg Mini Missile
-80lbs/36.2kg Medium Range Missile
-33lbs/15kg Short Range Missile

-RL-6 entries states full magazine is 8lbs (w/6shots), the SRM and Mini Missile figures are repeated for the other human mecha

The Phalanx (Spartan 1E) lists 1,000lbs/450kg

Figures come from TSC Manga size and Macross Saga Sourcebook

[glitterboy2098]

thanks for the help. i had thought there was a chart somewhere. i guess i was wrong.

looking through the various unit entries, i get this;


"standard" earth missiles
Mini-missile - 5lbs/2.25kg
Short Ranged Missile - 33lbs/15kg
Medium Range Missile - 80lbs/36.6kg
Long Range Missile - 1000lbs/450kg

non-standard missiles:
60mm rockets (MM) - about 1.3lbs/.4kg (RL-6 rocket launcher RT:SC pg145)*
HARM-80 - 800lbs/360kg (RT:MS pg69, 87)
190mm ATGMS (SRM) - 46.6lbs/21kg (MK-17 AAML. RT:MS, pg135)
178mm SAM (MRM) - 191lbs/86kg (MK-18 AAML. RT:MS, pg135)

Zentreadi Missiles:
Zentreadi Minimissile - ?
Zentreadi SRM - ?
Zentreadi MRM - 400lbs/180kg
Zentreadi LRM - 3 tons

Standard Earth Bombs
light bomb - 500lbs/225kg
medium bombs - 1000lbs/500kg
heavy bombs - 2000lbs/500kg


zentreadi missiles seem to be physically larger (their minimissiles are almost SRM's in size), as well as much heavier.

the 60mm rockets fired by the RL-1 of RT:MS are of unlisted weight, but are probably the same as used in the RL-6, which would make the RL-1 3.5 lbs unloaded.

[ShadowLogan]

I don't recall ever seeing a quick chart with the weight figures, but I did recall seeing the figure in individual launcher entries. The weight figures are more hit or miss though.

If you are trying to complie all the missile types, the Salamander Battloid (in RT:TRM pg118) is listed as using Mini-Missiles w/a range of 1.5miles/2.4km per each type. No weight though. Damage is comparable to Mini-Missile.

The only Rifts figure for Missile weight I can recall off hand is the CR-1 in the MB/UE (1lb/0.45kg).

[glitterboy2098]

the "standard" missiles are ones where there are multiple entries that all agree on mass and performance.
the non-standard types are ones where mass is different. i haven't listed any that give no mass at all, since i'm mainly concerned with weight here.

RIFTS is kinda annoying in it's lack of missile weights. i'll check out the CR-1, but i've resigned myself to minimissiles not having a "standard" mass in any palladium setting. might be able to find MRM mass by looking at that portable launcher in mercenaries though..

[glitterboy2098]

updated info including what i could find from the southern cross book.

----

"standard" earth missiles
Mini-missile - 5lbs/2.25kg
Short Ranged Missile - 33lbs/15kg
Medium Range Missile - 80lbs/36.6kg
Long Range Missile - 1000lbs/450kg

non-standard missiles;
60mm rockets (MM) - about 1.3lbs/.4kg (RL-6 rocket launcher RT:SC pg145)*
HARM-80 - 800lbs/360kg (RT:MS pg69, 87)
190mm ATGMS (SRM) - 46.6lbs/21kg (MK-17 AAML. RT:MS, pg135)
178mm SAM (MRM) - 191lbs/86kg (MK-18 AAML. RT:MS, pg135)
377mm MMDS-8 SAM (MRM) - 225lbs/101kg (RT:SC pg149)
800mm HMDS-10 TBM (LRM) - 650lbs/292.5kg (RT:SC pg150)

Zentreadi Missiles:
Zentreadi mini - ?
Zentreadi SRM - ?
Zentreadi MRM - 400lbs/180kg
Zentreadi LRM - 3 tons

Standard Earth Bombs:
mini-bomb - 100lbs/50kg
light bomb - 500lbs/225kg
medium bombs - 1000lbs/500kg
heavy bombs - 2000lbs/500kg

---------------
unrelated note: the size of zentreadi "mini" missiles is large enough i'd feel comfortable giving them the same +3 to strike bonus as SRM's, MRM's, and LRM's. certainly they appear to behave like guided missiles in the show. (at times, they even seem to act more like "smart bomb" guided missiles with the +5...)

[keir451]

At best guess for the Zentran missiles I would list them as the same weight as Earht missiles as the foundation for Robotech class missiles are taken from the tech found on the SDF-1. But that's just a guess.

[glitterboy2098]

except from the handful of entries we do have (the Z-MRM and Z-LRM, to use shorthand) Zentreadi missiles are about 6x heavier than earth missiles...and about 2-3x the size.

if i had to guess, earth missiles were based on earth technology, with performance improvements based off reverse engineered tyrolian tech from the SDF-1. certainly they match the mass and size of real world missiles like the sidewinder, AMRAAM, and Phoenix than they do the zentreadi weapons. range and stuff seems to match up well too.

[ZINO]

this is my take Weight
• Standard long range missiles: 2 tons each
• Light weight N.A.A.T long range missiles: 1000 pounds each
• Standard medium range missiles: 250 pounds each
• fire and forget medium range missiles 120 pounds each 10 miles
• Short range missiles 33 pounds each
• Mini-missiles 15 pounds each
• MDC rockets 2000 first generation 5 pounds each light damge
• MDC rockets 2000 second generation 2 pounds each high yield damage

[rem1093]

except from the handful of entries we do have (the Z-MRM and Z-LRM, to use shorthand) Zentreadi missiles are about 6x heavier than earth missiles...and about 2-3x the size.

if i had to guess, earth missiles were based on earth technology, with performance improvements based off reverse engineered tyrolian tech from the SDF-1. certainly they match the mass and size of real world missiles like the sidewinder, AMRAAM, and Phoenix than they do the zentreadi weapons. range and stuff seems to match up well too.

I don't see why the Zent. missiles would be bigger, or why they would need Mini missiles. It makes no sense that the Tyrolians (who are human size) would build components for the tech 2-10x bigger, just because the Zents are that size. Or would you use normal, by your size standers, missile components, to build small, or normal size missiles for the mecha.
And as for the Earth missile, wile i agree with the size for the Macross era. When they reach the Next gen, the Missiles are a lot smaller. Just scale an Alpha's shoulder, and you tell me the size of the 8 missiles are, considering what is all in the shoulder.

[Tiree]

I'm with you on this one Rem -

I believe what we have here is a Game Statistics not matching common sense.

But then again - they do shoehorn in standardization as much as possible in the game

[glitterboy2098]

zent missile size is based on visuals from the show. (zent missiles are bigger)
zent missile mass is taken directly from the RPG.

i think the big issue stems from translation bias.
most of the small missiles in macross are called "micromissiles", because they're smaller than the fighter missiles and ship missiles. in use they're rifts style SRMs. but namewise they're closer to "minimissiles".

so odds are that the HG/PB team went with the name over the performance.

so you have two choices. you can choose to use them as written, or you can alter them to fit your own ideas.
personally i'd toss on guidance for the zent "minimissiles", and smart missle guidance for the SRM's on up. large size IMO can be justified as being scaled to allow zent armory officers to reload mecha..and massive system redundancies to reduce the need for maintence between trips to a factory sat.

[rem1093]

zent missile size is based on visuals from the show. (zent missiles are bigger)
zent missile mass is taken directly from the RPG.

i think the big issue stems from translation bias.
most of the small missiles in macross are called "micromissiles", because they're smaller than the fighter missiles and ship missiles. in use they're rifts style SRMs. but namewise they're closer to "minimissiles".

so odds are that the HG/PB team went with the name over the performance.

so you have two choices. you can choose to use them as written, or you can alter them to fit your own ideas.
personally i'd toss on guidance for the zent "minimissiles", and smart missile guidance for the SRM's on up. large size IMO can be justified as being scaled to allow zent armory officers to reload mecha..and massive system redundancies to reduce the need for maintence between trips to a factory sat.

I don't think that the missiles are bigger, i think they are all miss labeled and missed sized, and yes i know that there is a Zent missile the size of a VT, (don't get me started on why there are not cruise missiles). It masedakes no sense that a 60+ ft. tall mecha (like the Qued.) only carries mini-missiles, and not SRM. Especially when the missiles are designed by a race our size and NOT 50 ft tall.

With the loading the missiles, since none of the Zents missiles are externally or wing mounted and are all internal or launcher based and since we don't see them being loaded, we don't know if the they have auto loaders, ext. making it really easy for a zent to load the missiles or the Auto cannons for that mater. This would fit with the fact that Zents are not trained in any form of maintenance, as we know from the show. As for the need for redundancy systems, you can go three ways with that. One is that they have them and the Masters tech is advanced and small enough that its built into the main system. Two, that Masters tech is so advanced that they don't need them. And three is that the Master's didn't add them, this would actually fit in with what we know about the tech the Masters gave the Zents, cheap built, easy use, and not care about the Zent's as long as the job got done.

As for the micromissile translation, I don't see that. Because if they did then the the Armor and the boosters for the super Fast packs, also both the Defender and the Tomahawk, would be carrying Mini-missiles and not SRM as listed. Because those missiles, as you said, are smaller then fighter or ship missiles.

[glitterboy2098]

you have to understand i'm approaching this as "what do the books say?" and 'what does the show show?', and making conclusions from that information.

i like to determain the canon situation before changing things willy nilly.

[Seto Kaiba]

It masedakes makes no sense that a 60+ ft. tall mecha (like the Qued.) only carries mini-missiles, and not SRM. Especially when the missiles are designed by a race our size and NOT 50 ft tall.

It makes perfect sense, considering the Queadluun's battlefield role, to say nothing of how many missiles those launchers carry. The actual error is going the other way... several of the entries in the new RPG, like the Super Valkyrie and Armored Valkyrie, make short-range missiles out of what the original source material says are micro-missiles. The missiles used are actually about the same size in both cases... the Queadluun carries more by virtue of being considerably larger.

(It's one of MANY things in the new RPG that don't make sense on examination)

As for the micromissile translation, I don't see that. Because if they did then the the Armor and the boosters for the super Fast packs, also both the Defender and the Tomahawk, would be carrying Mini-missiles and not SRM as listed. Because those missiles, as you said, are smaller then fighter or ship missiles.

See the above, but let's qualify that a little... it's not a translation error in those cases.

In the original source material, the Tomahawk's over-the-shoulder missile pack is supposed to be packing a short-ranged missile load, which is stated correctly in the RPG, but the rocket launchers on its shoulders should be more along the lines of a micro-missile, as they're described as being for close-range combat.

Like the Tomahawk, the Spartan's rocket launchers should be carrying a load more analogous to a micro-missile than what the RPG says they are, since they're for use at close ranges.

The Phalanx entry (I'm guessing that's what you were talking about, since the Defender has no missiles) is semi-incorrect... the pods can take a variety of loads, but the count cited and described as long-range is incorrect, since the 22 missile count is for the short-range high-maneuverability missiles.

[Seto Kaiba]

Seto,on the RPG by Palladium micro-missiles are not self guided missiles due to size (supposed there's no enough room to install the guidance device)

Uh-huh... (I facepalm'd HARD)

If you'll forgive me for pointing out the obvious, this doesn't make a lick of sense. There's quite literally no such thing as an unguided missile, because the one characteristic that sets missile weaponry apart from rocket weaponry is an onboard guidance system of some kind. If it doesn't have a guidance system, then it's not a missile. It'd be categorically impossible for the Queadluun-Rau to do the things it does in the series if it was armed with unguided ordinance.

[ShadowLogan]

@josephddm
The Naruni produce Micro-Missiles for the Rifts Phase World setting come in two varieties "dumb" and "smart", both have the same stopping power, but the smart has x2 the range. And this is in a package described as magic marker roughly, so the idea the size is preventing it is not ture. What may prevent it has more to due with miniturization capacity.

And from a miniturization standpoint, none of the Palladium missiles should really be unguided in either the Rifts or RT setting for the SRM and above given real-life missiles. Even mini-missiles should be guided.

@seto
I think Palladium is trying to use standardized classification in the game system as the "micro-missile" term is already linked so a specific configuration (see above). Though that hasn't stopped PB from specialized missiles w/n a given configuration (mini-missiles on the Salamader for example). It appears that HG is using terms similiar to PB for missiles going off the infopedia (though that could change at anytime).

As for the guidance issue on SRM and above that really is a bad copy/paste from RUE that should never have been done (w/regards to RT, Rifts is another matter). The guidance system bonus is supposed to be in the various launcher descriptions instead of the old flat +3 (+5 for smart).

[ShadowLogan]

updated info including what i could find from the southern cross book.

----

"standard" earth missiles
Mini-missile - 5lbs/2.25kg
Short Ranged Missile - 33lbs/15kg
Medium Range Missile - 80lbs/36.6kg
Long Range Missile - 1000lbs/450kg

non-standard missiles;
60mm rockets (MM) - about 1.3lbs/.4kg (RL-6 rocket launcher RT:SC pg145)*
HARM-80 - 800lbs/360kg (RT:MS pg69, 87)
190mm ATGMS (SRM) - 46.6lbs/21kg (MK-17 AAML. RT:MS, pg135)
178mm SAM (MRM) - 191lbs/86kg (MK-18 AAML. RT:MS, pg135)
377mm MMDS-8 SAM (MRM) - 225lbs/101kg (RT:SC pg149)
800mm HMDS-10 TBM (LRM) - 650lbs/292.5kg (RT:SC pg150)

Zentreadi Missiles:
Zentreadi mini - ?
Zentreadi SRM - ?
Zentreadi MRM - 400lbs/180kg
Zentreadi LRM - 3 tons

Standard Earth Bombs:
mini-bomb - 100lbs/50kg
light bomb - 500lbs/225kg
medium bombs - 1000lbs/500kg
heavy bombs - 2000lbs/500kg

---------------
unrelated note: the size of zentreadi "mini" missiles is large enough i'd feel comfortable giving them the same +3 to strike bonus as SRM's, MRM's, and LRM's. certainly they appear to behave like guided missiles in the show. (at times, they even seem to act more like "smart bomb" guided missiles with the +5...)

Also found:
70mm MLOP (Mini Missile) -15lbs/6.8kg (Masters Saga pg160 & Macross Saga pg97), flat range

Of Note:
Missile sizes w/ standard weight for its classification (damage/range):
190mm for SRM (Alpha, other entries omit size except in Macross Saga pg 31 & 43)
178mm SRM (Macross Saga pg 32)
78mm for Mini Missile (Alpha, other entries omit size)
433mm LRM (Macross Saga pg 40)
313mm MRM (Macross Saga pg 160, Zentreadi-style)
791mm LRM (Macross Saga pg 163, Zentreadi-style)

Missile size w/o weight, but classified (damage/range)
533mm MRM (Macross Saga pg50)
190mm SRM (Macross Saga pg 107)
150mm SRM (Macross Saga pg 173, Zentreadi-style)
178mm SRM (Macross Saga pg 175 & 187, Zentreadi-style)
103mm Mini Missile (Macross Saga pg 175 & 183, Zentreadi-style) flat range
70mm Mini Missile (Masters Saga pg118), flat range
60mm Mini Missile (Masters Saga pg 189), Laser-Guided

Inlcuded the later to show the diversity of sizes w/n a given category beyond just the size/weight/classification ones.

[Seto Kaiba]

I think Palladium is trying to use standardized classification in the game system as the "micro-missile" term is already linked so a specific configuration (see above).

Yeah, I know... kind of defeats the point of making a licensed RPG if they're changing up the setting to fit the game system, and not vice versa.

It appears that HG is using terms similiar to PB for missiles going off the infopedia (though that could change at anytime).

Oh, I don't doubt it... it'll probably change right around the time someone points Tommy to our discussion, just like the VF-1's ability to reach low orbit from that time when you and I and Treiz were debating the merits of the Alpha vs the VF-1 over on RT.com.

Included the later to show the diversity of sizes w/n a given category beyond just the size/weight/classification ones.

Just for giggles, here's some information on that note from official sources for weapons not listed (and size corrections for some that are):

VF-1 Valkyrie Compatible Armaments (Modern)

• AIM-9M/X Sidewinder
  Length: 2.85m
  Diameter: 127mm
  Weight: 86.2kg
  Loading: 2 per hardpoint
  
• AIM-120D AMRAAM
  Length: 3.87m
  Diameter: 178mm
  Weight: 152kg
  Loading: 1 per hardpoint
  
• AAM-3/Type-90 Air-to-Air Missile
  Length: 3.1m
  Diameter: 127mm
  Weight: 91kg
  Loading: 3 per hardpoint
  
• ASM-1/Type-80 Air-to-Ship Missile
  Length: 4m
  Diameter: 350mm
  Weight: 600kg
  Loading: 1 per hardpoint
  
• ASM-2/Type-93 Air-to-Ship Missile
  Length: 4m
  Diameter: 350mm
  Weight: 530kg
  Loading: 1 per hardpoint
  
• Mk.82 Snakeeye LDGB
  Length: 2.22m
  Diameter: 273mm
  Weight: 227kg
  Loading: 3 per hardpoint
  
• GBU-10C Paveway II
  Length: 3.84m
  Diameter: 460mm
  Weight: 934-956kg depending on configuration
  Loading: 1 per hardpoint

VF-1 Valkyrie Compatible Armaments (Series)

• AMM-1[A/B/H/C/CR/EX/X] Arrow (MRM)
  Length: 3m (standard), varies by configuration, up to 5m (AMM-1EX Longbow Arrow)
  Diameter: ~280mm
  Weight: Varies by configuration
  Loading: 3 per hardpoint
  
• RMS-1 Anti-Ship Thermonuclear Reaction Missile
  Length: 4m
  Diameter: 1m
  Weight: ?
  Loading: 1-2 per hardpoint
  
• HMM-01 Micro-Missile
  Length: ~1.5m
  Diameter: ~400mm
  Weight: Varies by warhead
  Loading: N/A (Carried in HMMP-02 or UUM-7 launcher packs only)
  
• GH-100 "Crusher" HSAP Micro-Missile
  Length: ~1.0m
  Diameter: 280mm
  Weight: Varies by warhead
  Loading: N/A (Carried in NP-AR-01 launcher pack only)
  
• GH-32 "Grenade Crusher" High-Maneuverability Micro-Missile
  Length: ~1.3m
  Diameter: 280mm
  Weight: Varies by warhead
  Loading: N/A (GBP-1S Armor Packs only)

[ESalter]

As for the guidance issue on SRM and above that really is a bad copy/paste from RUE that should never have been done (w/regards to RT, Rifts is another matter). The guidance system bonus is supposed to be in the various launcher descriptions instead of the old flat +3 (+5 for smart).

I figured Siembieda was trying to say that guided missiles are no longer considered autonomous from a rules standpoint, and ended up confusing himself.

[glitterboy2098]

generally i assume that minimissiles not being used in direct fire bazoka type weapons (IE: the "3.5 pound" versions) are a command guidance type. the firing unit uses either a hardline before firing or a radio datalink after firing to program in a course for the missile to follow. this explains why so many powered armors in rifts and robotech can have minimissile launchers that fire in odd directions, yet can still hit tarjets in front of them. essentually, they'd fire "up" or "out", the the missile would veer off onto the programmed course.

in the old robotech, where your P.P. bonuses actually applied to minimissiles, this was even more impressive, since it implied laser or radio guidance through the whole flight.

direct fire mini's, like those used in the RL series of weapons in robotech or the CR series in rifts, are lighter, dumb fired rockets that have to be aimed directly.

[ShadowLogan]

If anyone is trying to keep track of missile sizes listed in the 2E RPG, even if they don't have weight/mass figures:

The ARMD (pg142m) and Tri-star (pg164m) list 36" Torpedoes (36"= ~914mm) among their complement in the fluff text for the launcher description, but they don't list the weight of the missile. They are classified as Long Range Missile, though use unique damage value for one type.

[Tor]

RIFTS is kinda annoying in it's lack of missile weights.

MercenariesPg104 (under description of WI-23 Missile Launcher) mentions that a box-magazine (which contains 6 mini missiles) weighs 12 pounds, so that means that in Rifts, mini-missiles weigh under 2 pounds. I`m not sure about the exact amount because I don`t know how much the box containing the missiles weighs.

Whatever it is they weigh, they`re less than half the weight of mini-missiles in Robotech, so I guess Rifts tech is ahead on that curve, able to use lighter components.

I would think that Robotech vehicles would have no problem using Rifts mini-missiles, but that Rifts mini-missile launchers may have problems utilizing Robotech minis due to the added weight.

Dunno if short range missiles get coverage...

MercenariesPg105 (under WI-40M Fire and Forget) mentions that a MEDIUM missile plus launcher weighs 120 while the pg 106 continuation mentions that a box containing 4 weighs 520. Since 120x4=480 I take it that means the box weighs 40 pounds. This isn`t a good guideline though since it is not clear how much of the 120lbs is the plastic disposable launcher, and also these are not standard medium-range missiles, they should actually be LIGHTER because they have less fuel in them, limiting the traveling range.

MercenariesPg148 mentions that a fully-loaded Mark IX (which includes 120 long-range) weighs 25 tons, so assuming 0 for everything else this would cap the weight of a long-range missile at 0.21 tons (rounded up). If Palladium`s ton is 2000 pounds, a fifth of that would be 400 pounds, so I would expect LRMs to be at least less than that. So this means that like mini-missiles, LRMs in Rifts are under half the weight of Robotech equivalents.

[Seto Kaiba]

Since it came up in another thread, and I've recently uncovered some additional relevant information for missile and bomb weights on the VF-1, here is a more complete listing of the armaments Macross's creators have listed as compatible with the original Stonewell Bellcom VF-1 Valkyrie (Blocks 1-5).

We now have dimensions and masses for almost everything... but more importantly, masses for everything.

VF-1 Valkyrie Compatible Armaments (Modern US/NATO)

• Mark 82 Bomb
  Length: 2.22m
  Diameter: 273mm
  Weight: 227kg
  Loading: 3 per pylon
  
• Mark 83 Bomb
  Length: 3.00m
  Diameter: 357mm
  Weight: 460kg
  Loading: 1 per pylon
  
• Mark 84 Bomb
  Length: 3.28m
  Diameter: 458mm
  Weight: 925kg
  Loading: 1 per pylon
  
• CBU-24 Cluster Bomb
  Length: ?
  Diameter: ?
  Weight: 240kg
  Loading: 3 per pylon
  
• CBU-49 Cluster Bomb
  Length: ?
  Diameter: ?
  Weight: 243kg
  Loading: 1 per pylon
  
• CBU-52 Cluster Bomb
  Length: ?
  Diameter: ?
  Weight: 312kg
  Loading: 1 per pylon
  
• CBU-58 Cluster Bomb
  Length: ?
  Diameter: ?
  Weight: 372kg
  Loading: 1 per pylon
  
• Mark-20 "Rockeye II" / CBU-100 Cluster Bomb
  Length: ?
  Diameter: ?
  Weight: 222kg
  Loading: 3 per pylon
  
• GBU-8D HOBOS
  Length: ?
  Diameter: ?
  Weight: 1028kg
  Loading: 1 per pylon
  
• GBU-10 Paveway II
  Length: 4.34m
  Diameter: 460mm
  Weight: 907kg
  Loading: 1 per pylon
  
• GBU-15 Guided Bomb
  Length: 3.90m
  Diameter: 475mm
  Weight: 962kg
  Loading: 1 per pylon
  
• B43 Nuclear Bomb
  Length: 3.81-4.15m
  Diameter: 450mm
  Weight: 935-960kg
  Loading: 1 per pylon
  
• B83 Nuclear Bomb
  Length: 3.70m
  Diameter: 460mm
  Weight: 1,100kg
  Loading: 1 per pylon
  
• GBU-8D HOBOS
  Length: ?
  Diameter: ?
  Weight: 1028kg
  Loading: 1 per pylon
  
• AGM-65 Maverick Air-to-Surface Missile
  Length: 2.49m
  Diameter: 300mm
  Weight: 210-306kg depending on warhead
  Loading: 1 per pylon
  
• AGM-88 HARM Anti-Radiation Missile
  Length: 4.1m
  Diameter: 254mm
  Weight: 355kg
  Loading: 1 per pylon
  
• AIM-9M/X Sidewinder Air-to-Air Missile
  Length: 2.85m
  Diameter: 127mm
  Weight: 86.2kg
  Loading: 2 per pylon
  
• AIM-120D AMRAAM Air-to-Air Missile
  Length: 3.87m
  Diameter: 178mm
  Weight: 152kg
  Loading: 1 per pylon
  
• AIM-132 ASRAAM Air-to-Air Missile
  Length: 2.9m
  Diameter: 166mm
  Weight: 88kg
  Loading: 3 per pylon
  
• AIM-9M/X Sidewinder
  Length: 2.85m
  Diameter: 127mm
  Weight: 86.2kg
  Loading: 2 per pylon
  
• Type-90/AAM-3 Air-to-Air Missile
  Length: 3.1m
  Diameter: 127mm
  Weight: 91kg
  Loading: 3 per pylon
  
• ASM-1/Type-80 Air-to-Ship Missile
  Length: 4m
  Diameter: 350mm
  Weight: 600kg
  Loading: 1 per pylon
  
• ASM-2/Type-93 Air-to-Ship Missile
  Length: 4m
  Diameter: 350mm
  Weight: 530kg
  Loading: 1 per pylon

VF-1 Valkyrie Compatible Armaments (UN Forces, OTM munitions)

• AMM-1[A/B/H/C/CR/EX/X] Arrow All-Range Multipurpose Missile
  Length: 2.45m (AMM-1A)
  Diameter: ~280mm
  Weight: 125kg (AMM-1A)
  Loading: 3 per pylon
  
• RMS-1 Anti-Ship Thermonuclear Reaction Missile
  Length: 4m
  Diameter: 1m
  Weight: 1083kg
  Loading: 1 per inner pylon, 2 per outer pylon
  
• GA-100 "Crusher" High-Speed Armor Piercing Missile
  Length: 980mm
  Diameter: 550mm
  Weight: 115kg
  Loading: N/A (NP-AR-01 launcher pack only)
  
• GH-32 "Grenade Crusher" High-Maneuverability Micro-Missile
  Length: 450mm
  Diameter: 185mm
  Weight: 16.45kg
  Loading: N/A (GBP-1S Armored Pack only)
  
• H-22T "Grenade" Armor-Piercing Missile
  Length: 750mm
  Diameter: 500mm
  Weight: 95kg
  Loading: N/A (Carried in GBP-1S Armored Pack only)
  
• HMM-01 Micro-Missile
  Length: ~1m
  Diameter: ~400mm
  Weight: 31kg
  Loading: N/A (Carried in HMMP-02 or UUM-7 launchers only

[eliakon]

None of which helps really in figuring out what the sizes/masses of stuff in Robotech are......

[Seto Kaiba]

None of which helps really in figuring out what the sizes/masses of stuff in Robotech are......

Unless Harmony Gold has somehow magically changed the animation of the original Macross that it uses in the so-called "Macross Saga", that's a list of weights and dimensions for the missiles found in the "Macross Saga". As Harmony Gold and Palladium's creative process is basically to just copy what's in the notes of the original creators (Palladium also copy-pastes from their previous books), using those weights and dimensions is a no-brainer.

For the generic missile table... the info's all there in the books. For the Alpha? Divide the mass of those HMM-01's by 3 to account for the Alpha's missiles being 1/3 the size. Problem solved.

[Jefffar]

Based on what's there, I'd say the line between Short and Medium missiles is probably at the 100kg mark and the line between Medium and Long missiles is somewhere around 400 to 500kg.

I would, on size, characterize none of what's listed as a Mini-Missile, it all being to big or heavy for use in a shoulder fired weapon.

[ShadowLogan]

For the generic missile table... the info's all there in the books. For the Alpha? Divide the mass of those HMM-01's by 3 to account for the Alpha's missiles being 1/3 the size. Problem solved.

Regarding the Alpha missiles. No. Simply dividing the mass by 3 to account for the size doesn't work for a couple of reasons:
1. & 2 you are assuming that the explosives and/or propellants have the same energy density. They are not all created equal after all.
3. you are assuming the bulk of the materials involved in construction have the same density and strength, when they may not.

[Seto Kaiba]

Regarding the Alpha missiles. No. Simply dividing the mass by 3 to account for the size doesn't work for a couple of reasons: [...]

Two rebuttals that neatly address your three points:

1. Post-1st War Robotech is a WH40K-esque setting where humanity's technical knowledge is NOT advancing in any significant way, and is allegedly backsliding in several areas (per Tommy). Human weapons don't seem to actually improve in capability, they just get more compact and less useful.

This neatly addresses item 1, 2, and 3 together.


2. According to the RPG, all missiles are created equal. According to the show, the Alpha's missiles are substantially less potent... with far shorter effective ranges, less destructive potential, and what does appear to be a slower flight speed as well. If anything, the RPG and I are being profoundly charitable to later designs by assuming that the later missiles are just as good and made just as well as the earlier ones.

Addresses 1 and 2 specifically.

[ShadowLogan]

Seto, No actually you haven't addressed any of the points. To avoid derailing glitterboy's thread if you want to continue this can we take it to PM?

We know that humans are using PC more extensively with the Alpha design (current continuity). So we know they have access to more energetic materials, and they are making use of them in some areas compared to TMS (Alpha power plant). Which means you haven't refuted anything since none of this establishes that the Alpha missiles are using the same explosive material or propellant as the Macross missile you cited, or even materials in construction (the electronics are likely similar materials, but the body of the missile doesn't have to be).

And the RPG data is incomplete for what we are talking about. In game terms yes, all RPG missiles are created roughly equally (as the compiled list shows there are variations), but since there are other factors to consider (mass breakdown, all dimensions instead of just one) it really doesn't establish that they are in fact equal beyond their game stats. In fact to have the Alpha missiles be smaller than the VF-1 missile you say to use (you state their are 1/3 the size), they have to be using more dense materials to get it into a package 1/3 the size with identical performance since they would all have the same mass. Its the equivalent of taking a gallon of milk (~3.9l IIRC) and putting the same mass into a 2 liter bottle of soda (at the same time). By the mass you can't put 3.9l of milk into 2 liters, so you have to being using something more dense than milk (roughly x2) to get the same mass into a smaller volume.

As for the show, there are no common frames of reference to state which is more/less effective. Even range is questionable since the VF-1 typically fires at Regults from close range. Large volleys are something the VF-1 can and does do also, though more sparingly than the Alpha.

[obsessed]

Making something 1/3 the size does not make it 1/3 the weight.

The volume and density need to be actually calculated.

Easiest example, a lead sphere:
1 " diamerer 1,506 grains
0.66" diameter 433 grains
0.33" diameter 54 graing
And a 3" diameter weight 40,660 grains (much more than 1506 x 3 = 3012).

Missile has 4 basic parts:
- warhead
- guts (sensor, engine, guidance)
- tube (the skin)
- fins

You can calculate the volume and weight of tube (aluminum, high grade stainless, or sci-fi ceramic), then warhead, solid fuel rocket, and roughly the guidance and sensor. Fins are thin and usually same as skin.

Skin is one density, warhead is another, solid booster, and so on. If you look at cutaways of Hellfires TOW and Maverick, you'll see nearly 1/3 length is solid-rocket booster alone.

[ShadowLogan]

@obsessed
No it doesn't. However on the Palladium Missile table, all short range missiles in Robotech, unless stated otherwise, are the same weight/mass. They do list varying diameters of the missile, but nothing about the length. From the animation we know the missiles in question (VF-1 and Alpha) are different lengths, so in terms of Palladium stats, the Alpha missiles have to be made of more dense materials compared to the VF-1 missiles, since they are the same weight/mass packed into a smaller volume.

[obsessed]

@shadowLogan,
"No it doesn't."

Is there any part of "Making something 1/3 the size does not make it 1/3 the weight. The volume and density need to be actually calculated." which you don't understand ?

Palladium using the same weights for REF missiles as RDF missiles was just re-printing the same missile table. Why in the universe would they make an advanced REF missile heavier than it needs to me?

[Seto Kaiba]

Making something 1/3 the size does not make it 1/3 the weight.

The volume and density need to be actually calculated.

True, but we can make some pretty definite determinations based on a few known facts:

1. Human technology in Robotech after the first war is essentially in a state of near-stasis... with little or no advancement being made in most fields. (Harmony Gold staff are, if anything, even less kind about it, suggesting the Masters Saga actually represents humanity's technological low point, and its equipment is inferior to the earlier designs used by the UEEF.)

2. The visuals of the series support the contention that the smaller missiles are less capable... as they exhibit less agility in flight, smaller detonations by far, and considerably shorter ranges.

3. The actual size of the average missile used on the Alpha and Beta is actually less than 1/3 of the size of the smallest missile used on the VF-1, and most of the size is actually nozzle rather than the actual body of the missile. In practical terms, the Alpha's missiles are more like 1/6th the size of the HMM-01... and that volume has to be split between a warhead and propellant chamber.

We can safely assume that the density is roughly comparable, as human technology in the setting is NOT making significant improvements in any field. Therefore volume is the one key consideration, and what's shown in the visuals bears out the notion that we are dealing with a missile that sacrificed both range and capability in favor of size.

Palladium using the same weights for REF missiles as RDF missiles was just re-printing the same missile table. Why in the universe would they make an advanced REF missile heavier than it needs to me?

Because it's easier than coming up with weights and sizes for all of the individual missiles in each entry?

Look at the list I posted a few posts up for an example of what happens when you do things accurately...

[ShadowLogan]

@shadowLogan,
"No it doesn't."

Is there any part of "Making something 1/3 the size does not make it 1/3 the weight. The volume and density need to be actually calculated." which you don't understand ?

Palladium using the same weights for REF missiles as RDF missiles was just re-printing the same missile table. Why in the universe would they make an advanced REF missile heavier than it needs to me?

I understand we need to figure density and volume, the problem is we can't really do that since we don't know the materials that have gone into the two missiles in question. So the math doesn't work because we are missing information necessary to do all the calculations between the missiles. Yes we can make assumptions in this matter, but those assumptions can be challenged.

As for the RDF/REF missile issue, that is what is printed in the books. So from an RPG perspective, the only way the missiles can change their volume, and stay the same weight can only happen if the materials involved are different.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Missile has 4 basic parts:
- warhead
- guts (sensor, engine, guidance)
- tube (the skin)
- fins

Four parts...yep, But I would break them down differently.
~ Warhead
~ Avionics (sensors and guidance, these include gyroscopic directional control systems for space used missiles.)
~ Motor/Engine
~ The Body (the structure of the missile, including any wings or controlling surfaces.)
--------------------------
As pointed out earlier PB has assigned nominal weights to the each missile size class. Yes, this it true. This fact is not debatable in a discussion about real world technology.

[Seto Kaiba]

Four parts...yep, But I would break them down differently.
~ Warhead
~ Avionics (sensors and guidance, these include gyroscopic directional control systems for space used missiles.)
~ Motor/Engine
~ The Body (the structure of the missile, including any wings or controlling surfaces.)

Eh... I think I'd split the difference between your take and obsessed's, and break it down thusly:

• Guidance system
  Incl. the missile's active/passive guidance sensors, avionics package, and controller area network for actuator control of verniers, thrust-vectoring nozzle, and/or fins.
  
• Warhead
  Encompassing both the actual explosive material and the fuse or fuses to trigger detonation.
  
• Propulsion
  The missile's motor, and the actuators to control the thrust-vectoring nozzle, verniers, and/or fins for guidance.
  
• Fuselage
  The outer casing of the missile.

Considering the known designs for missiles in the series, I'm not sure they would actually use gyroscopic control... they have visible verniers in most cases.

[glitterboy2098]

guys.. can we take this dscussion to it's own thread? we're kind way off the original question.

[Tor]

Even though inheriting official Japanese data for Macross is reasonable enough, based on Robotech-is-different we are not held to those weights and the RPG data if present should trump it.

If someone ever connected Robotech to Phase World, I bet those uber-light 36-per-ton LRMs would be handy.

Oddly, an Archon suit of power armor in Rifts World Book 9 (South America 2) can also carry 4 LRMs...

Initially LRMs had the impression of being much larger though, like being utterly absent in RMB, requiring a giant platform or a Megazord to carry them.

[Seto Kaiba]

Even though inheriting official Japanese data for Macross is reasonable enough, based on Robotech-is-different we are not held to those weights and the RPG data if present should trump it. [...]

With respect to the Robotech animated series... with the sole exceptions of terminology and matters relating to technological continuity, if the Japanese source material says something it's dollars to donuts it will also hold true for Robotech.

The RPG is, as always, its own thing and not really recognized as accurate or expected to conform to the official canon for practical reasons fundamental to the RPG genre.

If someone ever connected Robotech to Phase World, I bet those uber-light 36-per-ton LRMs would be handy.

Actually, they would be entirely useless unless you were connecting the Macross Saga to Phase World.

It's one of the more amusing oddities of the Robotech 2nd Edition game... almost nothing in RT2E is able to actually take LRMs, ships aside. The few non-ship vehicles that CAN use LRMs are the fighters or attack planes of the Macross Saga: the VF-1 Valkyrie, LVT Avenger II, and F203 Dragon II. Past the first Robotech War, and everything starts to top out at MRMs and medium bombs. Even ground-based mobile missile launchers and "heavy support" aircraft like the Conbat and Beta can't take anything bigger than a MRM.

Oddly, an Archon suit of power armor in Rifts World Book 9 (South America 2) can also carry 4 LRMs...

Initially LRMs had the impression of being much larger though, like being utterly absent in RMB, requiring a giant platform or a Megazord to carry them.

I think that's a big part of the missile weight problem... the various classes of missile are not applied in a consistent fashion even within an individual Palladium game, let alone across multiple games. That sorta leaves the common missile table in the position of being nonsensical a fair bit of the time.

[obsessed]

A high and low weight calculation is better than speculation.

The fins are going to be light-weight but heat and stress resistant, like the fuselage. Skin, solid-rocket booster (or ramjet for some LRM) can be calculated. Explosive warheads also have known densities.

The variable weight is how much does the avionics and guidance weigh? Adding fins, servos, and a laser seeking head to a 70mm in RL does not increase too much weight.

SRMs like a hellfire are (eying the cut away) 30% length solid rocket booster. MRMs like a sidewinder are 75% solid rocket booster.

[obsessed]

guys.. can we take this dscussion to it's own thread? we're kind way off the original question.

Wea're just trying to help a figure out a weight of two missiles. Perfect place for this discussion mate.

[ShadowLogan]

A high and low weight calculation is better than speculation...

This is still speculation, even if you want to go high/low. And there are certainly a lot of combinations to consider.

Another issue is that given this is a sci-fi setting, it is possible for them to have "futuristic" materials with unknown densities in the major roles (skin, propellant, warhead).

Anyway glitterboy2098 has asked us to take the topic elsewhere. I done with the tangent in this thread.

[glitterboy2098]

guys.. can we take this dscussion to it's own thread? we're kind way off the original question.

Wea're just trying to help a figure out a weight of two missiles. Perfect place for this discussion mate.

the original discussion was missile sizes and weights within the RPG. that has been answered. it was answered 3 years ago

now it's people arguing over non-RPG stuff and bashing the RPG. which they did a 3 year thread necro to do..

[Jefffar]

Moderator Mode engaged:

While we have no policy against necroing threads if the thread is the most appropriate place for he discussion, we do have one against going off topic.

Rifts missile weights (and the lack of clear information on them) were mentioned in the original part of this topic and brought up in response to that mention. They provide a frame of reference for what the imagined size of Robotech missile classes may be - though are subordinate to in-universe information. If you wish to discuss Rifts missile information further, I'd recommend the Rift's forum.

Macross missile weights also provide a useful frame of reference to the Robotech discussion, though again must be considered subordinate to any figures found in-universe (which includes the rpg of course) and there is little point in bringing up the later Macross series. If you want detailed discussion of that topic, I'd suggest looking for a more Macross oriented forum, though you're more than welcome to post a Macross II related topic if you find some germane information for that.

Real life missile weights also provide a useful fram of reference to the Robotech discussion, though also must be considered subordinate to figures found in-universe. If you want a more detailed discussion on that topic, I recommend the Recon forum or a military oriented discussion forum.

If you wish to continue discussing this topic, please find information specific to the Robotech universe and RPG.