Lvl 15 Ley Line Walker vs. Glitter Boy

[Mack]

We should probably change this so it's more of a challenge for the LLW.

Something more along the lines of how to beat the GB with the least amount of PPE, or the lowest possible spells.

[Shark_Force]

We should probably change this so it's more of a challenge for the LLW.

Something more along the lines of how to beat the GB with the least amount of PPE, or the lowest possible spells.

a solution has already been proposed for a level 1 ley line walker with only the starting spell selection. how low do you want to go? 0.o

[Chronicle]

Temporal Wizard would be cooler

[dragonfett]

What about a level 15 Burster or Mind Melter?

[Shark_Force]

mind melter is easy. possess the pilot (you astral project inside the power armor first, btw, so nothing to get in the way), exit glitter boy, tie pilot up, then return to your own body and kill pilot however you prefer.

burster is quite a bit harder. because the burster is kinda like the glitter boy of psionics, except more like what the glitter boy would be if it dealt crappy damage and had crappy defense.

so uhh... not really like the glitter boy of psionics at all.

[keir451]

mind melter is easy. possess the pilot (you astral project inside the power armor first, btw, so nothing to get in the way), exit glitter boy, tie pilot up, then return to your own body and kill pilot however you prefer.

burster is quite a bit harder. because the burster is kinda like the glitter boy of psionics, except more like what the glitter boy would be if it dealt crappy damage and had crappy defense.

so uhh... not really like the glitter boy of psionics at all.

So now a psychic can posses someone INSIDE enviromentally sealed power armor? Nope not buying it, pretty sure there are rules against that sort of thing. Have been since day one.

[Shark_Force]

So now a psychic can posses someone INSIDE enviromentally sealed power armor? Nope not buying it, pretty sure there are rules against that sort of thing. Have been since day one.

actually, looking closer, i'd thought mentally possess others had a range, but instead it is touch (one could argue that this is essentially the same as range zero, but as far as reading the rules as written, not allowed).

so change that: telemechanic possession or telemechanic mental operation would be the powers of choice (some method of getting close will be needed, within 150 feet for possession and within 95 feet for mental operation), but it is likely to be quite doable by tunneling (if you presume that super-telekinesis can be used to tunnel, that is; i don't see why not, but some people seem to have a fixation with completely nerfing every psychic power, then complaining that they're not very effective...)

if tunneling isn't an option, TK force field can easily be used to take most of the beating (at level 15 it will have 375 MDC... enough to definitely survive at least one hit if it's a critical, at least 2 if not, and more likely 3 hits) or super telekinesis can be used to simply pick up the glitter boy (1.2 tons = 2400 pounds = 240 ISP... not guaranteed for a mind melter, but quite likely assuming they don't roll really badly on their ISP at level one) and point him in another direction while the psychic approaches. or to just bludgeon him to death, if you're not picky about being able to salvage that machine worth 25 million.

[Franfrickle]

mind melter is easy. possess the pilot (you astral project inside the power armor first, btw, so nothing to get in the way), exit glitter boy, tie pilot up, then return to your own body and kill pilot however you prefer.

burster is quite a bit harder. because the burster is kinda like the glitter boy of psionics, except more like what the glitter boy would be if it dealt crappy damage and had crappy defense.

so uhh... not really like the glitter boy of psionics at all.

So now a psychic can posses someone INSIDE enviromentally sealed power armor? Nope not buying it, pretty sure there are rules against that sort of thing. Have been since day one.

MindMelter: Astral Projection 5 min/lvl (75 mins) keeps the psychic undetectable from the GB and gets him inside the armor with him. RUE says

pg.271 near bottom of 4th paragragh, A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact

So Mentally Possess Others won't work, but you could use Telemechanic Paralysis for obvious reasons or Tele Possession (I like this one personally, would make it more fun and could have the power armor waste all the ammo, cause damage to itself without completely destroying it like destroying its head by repeatedly punching it "quit punching yerself" or ripping off its gun, etc... at Lvl 15 thats 30 mins of fun and figuring basic skills: HtH Basic-15th lvl 7 atk/melee x 4m/min x 30mins = 840 actions at 1d6 MD ea/per punch/tear/prying wellthats between 840 - 5,040 pts of MD counting you connect on all of them, but if not you'll still be ok.) So the possibilities are numerous and one can have alot of fun with it.

[Franfrickle]

Hide your body away somewhere safe and well away then while yer Astrally Projected you can get well within range without any probs.

[keir451]

mind melter is easy. possess the pilot (you astral project inside the power armor first, btw, so nothing to get in the way), exit glitter boy, tie pilot up, then return to your own body and kill pilot however you prefer.

burster is quite a bit harder. because the burster is kinda like the glitter boy of psionics, except more like what the glitter boy would be if it dealt crappy damage and had crappy defense.

so uhh... not really like the glitter boy of psionics at all.

So now a psychic can posses someone INSIDE enviromentally sealed power armor? Nope not buying it, pretty sure there are rules against that sort of thing. Have been since day one.

MindMelter: Astral Projection 5 min/lvl (75 mins) keeps the psychic undetectable from the GB and gets him inside the armor with him. RUE says

pg.271 near bottom of 4th paragragh, A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact

So Mentally Possess Others won't work, but you could use Telemechanic Paralysis for obvious reasons or Tele Possession (I like this one personally, would make it more fun and could have the power armor waste all the ammo, cause damage to itself without completely destroying it like destroying its head by repeatedly punching it "quit punching yerself" or ripping off its gun, etc... at Lvl 15 thats 30 mins of fun and figuring basic skills: HtH Basic-15th lvl 7 atk/melee x 4m/min x 30mins = 840 actions at 1d6 MD ea/per punch/tear/prying wellthats between 840 - 5,040 pts of MD counting you connect on all of them, but if not you'll still be ok.) So the possibilities are numerous and one can have alot of fun with it.

I would personally disagree with that interpretation as the GB while not having an artificial AI, like many independent bots/androids, DOES have a pilot who, IMO, can override the effects of TM possesion.
I would also interpret the Astral Projection power to stiill be unable to affect a pilot in enviromental PA or have the elctronic interferance of the PA add to the pilots saving throw.
Both TM operation, paralysis and possesion only work on SIMPLE NON INTELLIGENT MACHINES, PA units while nominally unitelligent are NOT simple machines. The pilot effctively becomes the units nervous/control system while in it. Without the pilot the unit cannot be used. You can probably fire off any built in weapons systems, but that would be about it.

[Franfrickle]

I would personally disagree with that interpretation as the GB while not having an artificial AI, like many independent bots/androids, DOES have a pilot who, IMO, can override the effects of TM possesion.
I would also interpret the Astral Projection power to stiill be unable to affect a pilot in enviromental PA or have the elctronic interferance of the PA add to the pilots saving throw.
Both TM operation, paralysis and possesion only work on SIMPLE NON INTELLIGENT MACHINES, PA units while nominally unitelligent are NOT simple machines. The pilot effctively becomes the units nervous/control system while in it. Without the pilot the unit cannot be used. You can probably fire off any built in weapons systems, but that would be about it.

RUE Pg 184

Special. Regular, non-intellegent machines cannot save vs. Tele possession. Artificial intelegences (robots like skelebots) need a 15 or higher to save and sentient machines (like Archie-3) require a 12 or better to save.... next paragraph...The character overrides the programming/controls of the machine, even in the case of sentient machines, and controls it like a robot... next paragragh... While the psychic possess the machine, it responds to the character's thoughts and does whatever he desires. Of course, physical, mechanical limitations still apply.

The only real tech that it for sure wont work against is "Attached" bionics or cybernetics and TW items.

Anymore questions/doubts? But on a personal note, if I was GM and applyed my house rules I would agree that the pilot had a chance with a saving throw and possibly a successful skill roll to wrestle control back at first, but if the GB pilot was inside resisting and failed, well the suit would seriously mess him up as its superior strength forcibly moved him about. It'd be like trying to steer an Earth-mover without any power steering, it just aint going to happen for a normal human.

[Nightmask]

I would personally disagree with that interpretation as the GB while not having an artificial AI, like many independent bots/androids, DOES have a pilot who, IMO, can override the effects of TM possesion.
I would also interpret the Astral Projection power to stiill be unable to affect a pilot in enviromental PA or have the elctronic interferance of the PA add to the pilots saving throw.
Both TM operation, paralysis and possesion only work on SIMPLE NON INTELLIGENT MACHINES, PA units while nominally unitelligent are NOT simple machines. The pilot effctively becomes the units nervous/control system while in it. Without the pilot the unit cannot be used. You can probably fire off any built in weapons systems, but that would be about it.

That's not what the text says regarding those, in fact under telemechanic Paralysis the only thing it says it can't work on is simple, non-intelligent machines like wind-up toys and revolvers. While a power armor has a pilot he's not attached to the PA anymore than the pilot of a truck is attached to it. Someone using Telemechanic Possession would be able to use a suit of PA like it was his own body as he now is merged temporarily with its systems. Remember those suits don't require anything from the pilot other than feedback through actuators, they aren't power-assist suits that require some physical ability from the pilot to augment.

So a Glitter Boy pilot couldn't do anything to stop someone with those telemechanic powers from shutting off his Boom Gun, telling it to shut down, or merge with it and do whatever he felt like while the pilot was trapped inside.

[Giant2005]

I have just done the math and with the right combination of spells and a bit of discipline a LLW could stand there taking the shots from a GB until the GB's 1000 rounds of ammunition are spent.
A 15th level GB has 13 attacks per melee, is +7 to strike, has 1000 rounds of ammunition and inflicts 3D6x10MD per hit.
A 15th level LLW will have 490 PPE (overclocked to 1470) and gain an extra 20 every melee to use from the Ley Line.
At 13 attacks per melee it would require 77 melees for the GB to exhaust his ammunition supply, in that time the LLW will gain 1540 extra PPE from the ley line for a total of 3010 PPE.

By using the spell Chromatic Protection, the GB is -10 to strike (for a net loss of -3 to strike with his personal bonuses included). With a 15 minute duration, this would cost the LLW 20 PPE to keep going for 77 melees reducing his total to 2990 PPE.

Requiring a modified strike roll of 8 or more to hit with any ranged attack, factoring the GB's -3 to strike results in him requiring to roll 11 or higher to hit the LLW therefore missing 50% of his shots.
A 15th level LLW using Armor Bizarre will have 225MDC. The average damage of a Boomgun at 3D6x10MD is 105 damage requiring 3 rounds to deplete the spell. With a 50% miss rate, after every 6 rounds from the GB, the LLW will have to spend 15 PPE to renew his Armor Bizarre.
1000 rounds /6 = 177 casts of Armor Bizarre required to stay alive. At 15 PPE each, that would require 2655 PPE leaving the LLW an excess of 245 PPE to do with as he pleases after surviving the GB's full ammunition capacity.

[keir451]

@Nightmask & Franfickle; I read the same line of text that you guys did, I just interpreted it differently. In MY Opinion those psychic powers won't work on a PA unit becuae it's not a simple machine. The reason they don't work on wind up toys, etc. is becasue they'e TOO simple, they're just plain mechanics with no electronics to manipulate. By the same token a PA unit has TOO MANY electronic/manual systems and REQUIRES a pilot for it to fly or move. The psychic could manipulate certain systems individually in the same manner he could cause a energy rifle to fire, by accessing certain electronics, but only when the pilot isn't in the unit. If the pilot is operating the unit then all he has to do is shut down the power source and then the psychic can't manipulate anything or just override the psions control manually. If he wants to atack again he can fire up the power plant again and fire away.
@Giant 2005; I see where you're coming from, but having crunched similar numbers and played mages vs PA units & vice versa I've found that even a level 15 LLW is sorely outclassed by ANY PA unit and, especially, by a GB unit. Of course alot has to do with relative dice rolls and the imagination of the players. Suffice to say that the standard image of a standup "you shoot me, I shoot you" fight isn't how I've encountered the game being played. I've seen a GB take down a Naruni Juggernaut and a SINGLE SAMAS pilot take on entire divisions simply because of HOW the player ran his character.

[Shark_Force]

@Nightmask & Franfickle; I read the same line of text that you guys did, I just interpreted it differently. In MY Opinion those psychic powers won't work on a PA unit becuae it's not a simple machine. The reason they don't work on wind up toys, etc. is becasue they'e TOO simple, they're just plain mechanics with no electronics to manipulate. By the same token a PA unit has TOO MANY electronic/manual systems and REQUIRES a pilot for it to fly or move. The psychic could manipulate certain systems individually in the same manner he could cause a energy rifle to fire, by accessing certain electronics, but only when the pilot isn't in the unit. If the pilot is operating the unit then all he has to do is shut down the power source and then the psychic can't manipulate anything or just override the psions control manually. If he wants to atack again he can fire up the power plant again and fire away.
@Giant 2005; I see where you're coming from, but having crunched similar numbers and played mages vs PA units & vice versa I've found that even a level 15 LLW is sorely outclassed by ANY PA unit and, especially, by a GB unit. Of course alot has to do with relative dice rolls and the imagination of the players. Suffice to say that the standard image of a standup "you shoot me, I shoot you" fight isn't how I've encountered the game being played. I've seen a GB take down a Naruni Juggernaut and a SINGLE SAMAS pilot take on entire divisions simply because of HOW the player ran his character.

did i mention how i feel about people who nerf stuff then complain it's not powerful?

ok, let's examine this. there are two possible interpretations of what is happening with the glitter boy when it moves around:

1) the human pilot is physically moving the 1.2 ton power armor with their own strength.
2) the human pilot is using movement to provide instructions to the 1.2 ton power armor on how to move under its own power.

now, since the glitter boy pilot does not require a sufficiently large PS to pick up and use a boom gun, or to carry the weight of the power armor, and the power armor is not limited to the pilot's running speed, and the power armor is not limited to the pilot's carrying capacity, and the power armor has a robotic PS as opposed to a standard or augmented PS, i'm going to go out on a limb and deduce that the power armor *probably* operates under interpretation number 2. it moves under its own power, and the movements of the pilot are simply to provide instructions to the suit. the contribution of the human pilot, if any, to the amount of force involved in moving the power armor around, is at best miniscule compared to the suit's contribution.

also, if i was going to possess the suit, i would personally just open the pilot compartment and throw the bum out. then probably turn around and shoot the pilot with the boom gun. twice if the GM is being overzealous with the G.I. Joe rule, or if there is an unlucky roll.

[Subjugator]

@Nightmask & Franfickle; I read the same line of text that you guys did, I just interpreted it differently. In MY Opinion those psychic powers won't work on a PA unit becuae it's not a simple machine. The reason they don't work on wind up toys, etc. is becasue they'e TOO simple, they're just plain mechanics with no electronics to manipulate. By the same token a PA unit has TOO MANY electronic/manual systems and REQUIRES a pilot for it to fly or move. The psychic could manipulate certain systems individually in the same manner he could cause a energy rifle to fire, by accessing certain electronics, but only when the pilot isn't in the unit. If the pilot is operating the unit then all he has to do is shut down the power source and then the psychic can't manipulate anything or just override the psions control manually. If he wants to atack again he can fire up the power plant again and fire away.
@Giant 2005; I see where you're coming from, but having crunched similar numbers and played mages vs PA units & vice versa I've found that even a level 15 LLW is sorely outclassed by ANY PA unit and, especially, by a GB unit. Of course alot has to do with relative dice rolls and the imagination of the players. Suffice to say that the standard image of a standup "you shoot me, I shoot you" fight isn't how I've encountered the game being played. I've seen a GB take down a Naruni Juggernaut and a SINGLE SAMAS pilot take on entire divisions simply because of HOW the player ran his character.

You're not reading this logically. Why would the circuitry respond to the positive feedback provided by the pilot if the person using TMP was overriding it? The answer is that it wouldn't. If TMP can override a control switch on a laptop, it can override the control switch that manages the arm actuators in a Glitter Boy.

/Sub

[Galroth]

@Nightmask & Franfickle; I read the same line of text that you guys did, I just interpreted it differently. In MY Opinion those psychic powers won't work on a PA unit becuae it's not a simple machine. The reason they don't work on wind up toys, etc. is becasue they'e TOO simple, they're just plain mechanics with no electronics to manipulate. By the same token a PA unit has TOO MANY electronic/manual systems and REQUIRES a pilot for it to fly or move. The psychic could manipulate certain systems individually in the same manner he could cause a energy rifle to fire, by accessing certain electronics, but only when the pilot isn't in the unit. If the pilot is operating the unit then all he has to do is shut down the power source and then the psychic can't manipulate anything or just override the psions control manually. If he wants to atack again he can fire up the power plant again and fire away.
@Giant 2005; I see where you're coming from, but having crunched similar numbers and played mages vs PA units & vice versa I've found that even a level 15 LLW is sorely outclassed by ANY PA unit and, especially, by a GB unit. Of course alot has to do with relative dice rolls and the imagination of the players. Suffice to say that the standard image of a standup "you shoot me, I shoot you" fight isn't how I've encountered the game being played. I've seen a GB take down a Naruni Juggernaut and a SINGLE SAMAS pilot take on entire divisions simply because of HOW the player ran his character.

did i mention how i feel about people who nerf stuff then complain it's not powerful?

ok, let's examine this. there are two possible interpretations of what is happening with the glitter boy when it moves around:

1) the human pilot is physically moving the 1.2 ton power armor with their own strength.
2) the human pilot is using movement to provide instructions to the 1.2 ton power armor on how to move under its own power.

now, since the glitter boy pilot does not require a sufficiently large PS to pick up and use a boom gun, or to carry the weight of the power armor, and the power armor is not limited to the pilot's running speed, and the power armor is not limited to the pilot's carrying capacity, and the power armor has a robotic PS as opposed to a standard or augmented PS, i'm going to go out on a limb and deduce that the power armor *probably* operates under interpretation number 2. it moves under its own power, and the movements of the pilot are simply to provide instructions to the suit. the contribution of the human pilot, if any, to the amount of force involved in moving the power armor around, is at best miniscule compared to the suit's contribution.

also, if i was going to possess the suit, i would personally just open the pilot compartment and throw the bum out. then probably turn around and shoot the pilot with the boom gun. twice if the GM is being overzealous with the G.I. Joe rule, or if there is an unlucky roll.

You aren't being evil enough. Seal the environmental seals, shut down the life support, change all the start up codes and lock the emergency escape. Then shut the power armor down and open in up in a day or so after the pilot has suffocated to death.

[Nightmask]

@Nightmask & Franfickle; I read the same line of text that you guys did, I just interpreted it differently. In MY Opinion those psychic powers won't work on a PA unit becuae it's not a simple machine. The reason they don't work on wind up toys, etc. is becasue they'e TOO simple, they're just plain mechanics with no electronics to manipulate. By the same token a PA unit has TOO MANY electronic/manual systems and REQUIRES a pilot for it to fly or move. The psychic could manipulate certain systems individually in the same manner he could cause a energy rifle to fire, by accessing certain electronics, but only when the pilot isn't in the unit. If the pilot is operating the unit then all he has to do is shut down the power source and then the psychic can't manipulate anything or just override the psions control manually. If he wants to atack again he can fire up the power plant again and fire away.

That's really contrary to what the actual text for those psionic powers actually states especially for Telemechanic Possession. You become the controlling force of the suit, the being inside is no longer the pilot any longer so he can't turn anything off. The power even states that Telemechanic Posession is basically the machine version of Mentally Possess Others and only artificially intelligent or sentient machines get any option to resist and even that's not likely for the non-sentient AI like a Skelebot. A power armor like the Glitter Boy has no save at all, the pilot is not neural-linked to it like a cyborg he's just a guy moving switches and actuators and it's obvious of you can take over and dominate a skelebot like it was your own body more a Glitter Boy isn't going to be too complex, in fact the more complex machines like power armors are intended to be user friendly and respond like the living beings wearing them so are even more compatible with such activities.

[Shark_Force]

@Nightmask & Franfickle; I read the same line of text that you guys did, I just interpreted it differently. In MY Opinion those psychic powers won't work on a PA unit becuae it's not a simple machine. The reason they don't work on wind up toys, etc. is becasue they'e TOO simple, they're just plain mechanics with no electronics to manipulate. By the same token a PA unit has TOO MANY electronic/manual systems and REQUIRES a pilot for it to fly or move. The psychic could manipulate certain systems individually in the same manner he could cause a energy rifle to fire, by accessing certain electronics, but only when the pilot isn't in the unit. If the pilot is operating the unit then all he has to do is shut down the power source and then the psychic can't manipulate anything or just override the psions control manually. If he wants to atack again he can fire up the power plant again and fire away.
@Giant 2005; I see where you're coming from, but having crunched similar numbers and played mages vs PA units & vice versa I've found that even a level 15 LLW is sorely outclassed by ANY PA unit and, especially, by a GB unit. Of course alot has to do with relative dice rolls and the imagination of the players. Suffice to say that the standard image of a standup "you shoot me, I shoot you" fight isn't how I've encountered the game being played. I've seen a GB take down a Naruni Juggernaut and a SINGLE SAMAS pilot take on entire divisions simply because of HOW the player ran his character.

did i mention how i feel about people who nerf stuff then complain it's not powerful?

ok, let's examine this. there are two possible interpretations of what is happening with the glitter boy when it moves around:

1) the human pilot is physically moving the 1.2 ton power armor with their own strength.
2) the human pilot is using movement to provide instructions to the 1.2 ton power armor on how to move under its own power.

now, since the glitter boy pilot does not require a sufficiently large PS to pick up and use a boom gun, or to carry the weight of the power armor, and the power armor is not limited to the pilot's running speed, and the power armor is not limited to the pilot's carrying capacity, and the power armor has a robotic PS as opposed to a standard or augmented PS, i'm going to go out on a limb and deduce that the power armor *probably* operates under interpretation number 2. it moves under its own power, and the movements of the pilot are simply to provide instructions to the suit. the contribution of the human pilot, if any, to the amount of force involved in moving the power armor around, is at best miniscule compared to the suit's contribution.

also, if i was going to possess the suit, i would personally just open the pilot compartment and throw the bum out. then probably turn around and shoot the pilot with the boom gun. twice if the GM is being overzealous with the G.I. Joe rule, or if there is an unlucky roll.

You aren't being evil enough. Seal the environmental seals, shut down the life support, change all the start up codes and lock the emergency escape. Then shut the power armor down and open in up in a day or so after the pilot has suffocated to death.

well, there's a time limit and he's presumably wearing the fancy underpants they give you along with the glitter boy suit, and i'm pretty sure that has fully environmental capabilities. and a radio. it would be tremendously embarrassing to have him call for help and get rescued from my overly-complicated method of killing him.

sometimes, you just have to shoot people in the head. it may not be elegant, or sophisticated, but sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet and get it done.

[Galroth]

@Nightmask & Franfickle; I read the same line of text that you guys did, I just interpreted it differently. In MY Opinion those psychic powers won't work on a PA unit becuae it's not a simple machine. The reason they don't work on wind up toys, etc. is becasue they'e TOO simple, they're just plain mechanics with no electronics to manipulate. By the same token a PA unit has TOO MANY electronic/manual systems and REQUIRES a pilot for it to fly or move. The psychic could manipulate certain systems individually in the same manner he could cause a energy rifle to fire, by accessing certain electronics, but only when the pilot isn't in the unit. If the pilot is operating the unit then all he has to do is shut down the power source and then the psychic can't manipulate anything or just override the psions control manually. If he wants to atack again he can fire up the power plant again and fire away.
@Giant 2005; I see where you're coming from, but having crunched similar numbers and played mages vs PA units & vice versa I've found that even a level 15 LLW is sorely outclassed by ANY PA unit and, especially, by a GB unit. Of course alot has to do with relative dice rolls and the imagination of the players. Suffice to say that the standard image of a standup "you shoot me, I shoot you" fight isn't how I've encountered the game being played. I've seen a GB take down a Naruni Juggernaut and a SINGLE SAMAS pilot take on entire divisions simply because of HOW the player ran his character.

did i mention how i feel about people who nerf stuff then complain it's not powerful?

ok, let's examine this. there are two possible interpretations of what is happening with the glitter boy when it moves around:

1) the human pilot is physically moving the 1.2 ton power armor with their own strength.
2) the human pilot is using movement to provide instructions to the 1.2 ton power armor on how to move under its own power.

now, since the glitter boy pilot does not require a sufficiently large PS to pick up and use a boom gun, or to carry the weight of the power armor, and the power armor is not limited to the pilot's running speed, and the power armor is not limited to the pilot's carrying capacity, and the power armor has a robotic PS as opposed to a standard or augmented PS, i'm going to go out on a limb and deduce that the power armor *probably* operates under interpretation number 2. it moves under its own power, and the movements of the pilot are simply to provide instructions to the suit. the contribution of the human pilot, if any, to the amount of force involved in moving the power armor around, is at best miniscule compared to the suit's contribution.

also, if i was going to possess the suit, i would personally just open the pilot compartment and throw the bum out. then probably turn around and shoot the pilot with the boom gun. twice if the GM is being overzealous with the G.I. Joe rule, or if there is an unlucky roll.

You aren't being evil enough. Seal the environmental seals, shut down the life support, change all the start up codes and lock the emergency escape. Then shut the power armor down and open in up in a day or so after the pilot has suffocated to death.

well, there's a time limit and he's presumably wearing the fancy underpants they give you along with the glitter boy suit, and i'm pretty sure that has fully environmental capabilities. and a radio. it would be tremendously embarrassing to have him call for help and get rescued from my overly-complicated method of killing him.

sometimes, you just have to shoot people in the head. it may not be elegant, or sophisticated, but sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet and get it done.

I doubt there is 6 hours of air in the pilot's compartment of a GB, and he can't use the radio after you've locked him out of the controls and shut off the power armor.

[dragonfett]

First off, I don't know what edition of the R:UE that you are reading, but mine is a first printing R:UE, and the only mention of controlling SIMPLE NON-INTELLIGENT MACHINES is in the last paragraph were it says:

While in mental possession of a simple machine, the psychic has only a vague awareness of his surroundings and can see, hear, and feel things around him but as if in a cloud or a haze. However, if the machine has optics and/or sensors, he is able to use them like his own natural eyes and senses. The machine, regardless of its capabilities and programming, has attacks and actions equal to the character possessing it.

In the saving throw section of the power in my printing of the R:UE it reads:

Saving Throw: Special. REGULAR, NON-INTELLIGENT MACHINES cannot save vs. Telemechanic Possession. ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCES (ROBOTS LIKE SKELEBOTS) need a 15 or higher to save and SENTIENT MACHINES (LIKE ARCHIE-3)require a 12 or better to save. Artificial Intelligences and sentient machines also get to save when being forced to do something that is contrary to their programming. Cybernetic and bionic devices attached to living tissue can NOT be possessed. Neither can magic items, including Rune Weapons and techno-wizard devices.

Note how it says regular non-intelligent machines. As the Glitter Boy has no programming to allow it to do anything on its own, it therefore can't be considered to be an Artificial Intelligence, and since it is not self-aware (much less even Artificially Intelligent), it therefore cannot be a sentient machine. Therefore we must come to the conclusion that a Glitter Boy is, simply put, a REGULAR, NON-INTELLIGENT MACHINE.

[Nightmask]

I doubt there is 6 hours of air in the pilot's compartment of a GB, and he can't use the radio after you've locked him out of the controls and shut off the power armor.

The on-switch is likely in the armor though, so as soon as the control runs out he can turn it back on again promptly.

Hmmm, does the GB have a self-destruct? You could always just trigger that and end things fairly quickly.

[Galroth]

I doubt there is 6 hours of air in the pilot's compartment of a GB, and he can't use the radio after you've locked him out of the controls and shut off the power armor.

The on-switch is likely in the armor though, so as soon as the control runs out he can turn it back on again promptly.

Hmmm, does the GB have a self-destruct? You could always just trigger that and end things fairly quickly.

He won't be able to start it up unless he can guess what you changed the start up codes to though.

[Nightmask]

I doubt there is 6 hours of air in the pilot's compartment of a GB, and he can't use the radio after you've locked him out of the controls and shut off the power armor.

The on-switch is likely in the armor though, so as soon as the control runs out he can turn it back on again promptly.

Hmmm, does the GB have a self-destruct? You could always just trigger that and end things fairly quickly.

He won't be able to start it up unless he can guess what you changed the start up codes to though.

So far as I know Glitter boy's have an on-off switch not a start-up sequence you have to enter. There may be a security lock-out for getting into one in the first place but wouldn't be one inside the armor, plus safety features would make it almost impossible to lock someone into the armor even without power. It would have manual releases (after all it was designed for the military and would have had to follow US laws of safety which likely would have just gotten even more rigid by them).

[Galroth]

I doubt there is 6 hours of air in the pilot's compartment of a GB, and he can't use the radio after you've locked him out of the controls and shut off the power armor.

The on-switch is likely in the armor though, so as soon as the control runs out he can turn it back on again promptly.

Hmmm, does the GB have a self-destruct? You could always just trigger that and end things fairly quickly.

He won't be able to start it up unless he can guess what you changed the start up codes to though.

So far as I know Glitter boy's have an on-off switch not a start-up sequence you have to enter. There may be a security lock-out for getting into one in the first place but wouldn't be one inside the armor, plus safety features would make it almost impossible to lock someone into the armor even without power. It would have manual releases (after all it was designed for the military and would have had to follow US laws of safety which likely would have just gotten even more rigid by them).

The self destruct option is fun too, even if it doesn't exist as an actual function you might be able to set the reactor past it's safety limits and accomplish the same thing.

[Nightmask]

I doubt there is 6 hours of air in the pilot's compartment of a GB, and he can't use the radio after you've locked him out of the controls and shut off the power armor.

The on-switch is likely in the armor though, so as soon as the control runs out he can turn it back on again promptly.

Hmmm, does the GB have a self-destruct? You could always just trigger that and end things fairly quickly.

He won't be able to start it up unless he can guess what you changed the start up codes to though.

So far as I know Glitter boy's have an on-off switch not a start-up sequence you have to enter. There may be a security lock-out for getting into one in the first place but wouldn't be one inside the armor, plus safety features would make it almost impossible to lock someone into the armor even without power. It would have manual releases (after all it was designed for the military and would have had to follow US laws of safety which likely would have just gotten even more rigid by them).

The self destruct option is fun too, even if it doesn't exist as an actual function you might be able to set the reactor past it's safety limits and accomplish the same thing.

At the least you might be able to fire off the rail gun without the pylons engaged, shouldn't take too many unbraced firings rattling you all over creation to leave you if not dead certainly defeated.

[Prysus]

Hmmm, does the GB have a self-destruct? You could always just trigger that and end things fairly quickly.

Greetings and Salutations. R:UE, page 73, option #4: Special Sensory Systems of Note, item #3: Self-Destruct Mechanism. So yes, yes it does have one. Of course, if you're possessing the Glitterboy at the time you're going to hurt yourself when it's destroyed (and if you jump out early you risk the pilot deactivating it last instant classic movie timer blinking 1 second or 0 seconds scene). Still, the option is there if necessary. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Franfrickle]

I hate it when you loose internet right in the middle of a discussion (stupid foriegn internet service people, Choke yerselves), but thankfully there was enough people to correct the issue I was addressing. Thanks. Although I like my first idea offered with the Mind Melter only using Astral Projection and Telemechanic Possession and punching himself repeatedly in the armored head, it would be cheaper to have the Power Armor simply pull its head off then reach up and squeeze the pilots head like a grape. It still does damage to the head region of the armor but doesnt completely destroy it as repeatedly punching itself would. Just not as humorous as seeing a GB beating its head in would be.

[Shark_Force]

I doubt there is 6 hours of air in the pilot's compartment of a GB, and he can't use the radio after you've locked him out of the controls and shut off the power armor.

hmmm... interestingly, in RUE, the glitter boy OCC no longer gives out glitter boy body armor, which heavily implied it was worn by the pilot underneath the suit. given that the glitter boy doesn't really have any other place to transport the light/medium armor the pilot gets, however, i would still tend to assume you can wear body armor inside the glitter boy. that body armor has 5 hours of oxygen supply, as a default. that's a lot of time, during which he can be rescued.

as to other comments above: why would you self-destruct the armor? it's yours. you own it. open it up, throw the pilot out, and shoot him.

also, i rather doubt the glitter boy has a standard on/off switch. for one thing, it's running on a nuclear reactor. i'm no nuclear physicist, but i don't think you generally just press a button and it turns on or off, as a general rule...

for another thing, where would you put it? your hands are in the arms, moving them around. putting a button that turns the suit off in there seems like a recipe for disaster; most likely, it's got a computer that you use to activate/deactivate the suit, if needed. which computer is in the control of the psychic. apart from physically being able to cut a power line or something (and it seems rather unlikely the interior of the suit would even have access to such), you're not going to cut the power to the glitter boy imo.

likewise, the controls to the self-destruct are likely the same. if there is a manual option, it's not going to be a simple button-press, it's likely to require a fairly complex series of events being done in a precise order. mostly because accidentally blowing up the suit with the pilot inside would be a little bit of a safety hazard (on the other hand, that would explain how a single glitter boy actually got blown up in that engagement that led to the limited nuclear exchange etc).

about the only fully manual control i would expect is an emergency exit. and heck, if the pilot decides he wants to exit the suit, so much the better.

[Galroth]

I doubt there is 6 hours of air in the pilot's compartment of a GB, and he can't use the radio after you've locked him out of the controls and shut off the power armor.

hmmm... interestingly, in RUE, the glitter boy OCC no longer gives out glitter boy body armor, which heavily implied it was worn by the pilot underneath the suit. given that the glitter boy doesn't really have any other place to transport the light/medium armor the pilot gets, however, i would still tend to assume you can wear body armor inside the glitter boy. that body armor has 5 hours of oxygen supply, as a default. that's a lot of time, during which he can be rescued.

as to other comments above: why would you self-destruct the armor? it's yours. you own it. open it up, throw the pilot out, and shoot him.

also, i rather doubt the glitter boy has a standard on/off switch. for one thing, it's running on a nuclear reactor. i'm no nuclear physicist, but i don't think you generally just press a button and it turns on or off, as a general rule...

for another thing, where would you put it? your hands are in the arms, moving them around. putting a button that turns the suit off in there seems like a recipe for disaster; most likely, it's got a computer that you use to activate/deactivate the suit, if needed. which computer is in the control of the psychic. apart from physically being able to cut a power line or something (and it seems rather unlikely the interior of the suit would even have access to such), you're not going to cut the power to the glitter boy imo.

likewise, the controls to the self-destruct are likely the same. if there is a manual option, it's not going to be a simple button-press, it's likely to require a fairly complex series of events being done in a precise order. mostly because accidentally blowing up the suit with the pilot inside would be a little bit of a safety hazard (on the other hand, that would explain how a single glitter boy actually got blown up in that engagement that led to the limited nuclear exchange etc).

about the only fully manual control i would expect is an emergency exit. and heck, if the pilot decides he wants to exit the suit, so much the better.

I also like the idea of opening the suit and using the arms to reach in, grab the pilot and pull him apart like a wishbone.

[keir451]

@Nightmask & Franfickle; I read the same line of text that you guys did, I just interpreted it differently. In MY Opinion those psychic powers won't work on a PA unit becuae it's not a simple machine. The reason they don't work on wind up toys, etc. is becasue they'e TOO simple, they're just plain mechanics with no electronics to manipulate. By the same token a PA unit has TOO MANY electronic/manual systems and REQUIRES a pilot for it to fly or move. The psychic could manipulate certain systems individually in the same manner he could cause a energy rifle to fire, by accessing certain electronics, but only when the pilot isn't in the unit. If the pilot is operating the unit then all he has to do is shut down the power source and then the psychic can't manipulate anything or just override the psions control manually. If he wants to atack again he can fire up the power plant again and fire away.

That's really contrary to what the actual text for those psionic powers actually states especially for Telemechanic Possession. You become the controlling force of the suit, the being inside is no longer the pilot any longer so he can't turn anything off. The power even states that Telemechanic Posession is basically the machine version of Mentally Possess Others and only artificially intelligent or sentient machines get any option to resist and even that's not likely for the non-sentient AI like a Skelebot. A power armor like the Glitter Boy has no save at all, the pilot is not neural-linked to it like a cyborg he's just a guy moving switches and actuators and it's obvious of you can take over and dominate a skelebot like it was your own body more a Glitter Boy isn't going to be too complex, in fact the more complex machines like power armors are intended to be user friendly and respond like the living beings wearing them so are even more compatible with such activities.

Not really it all depends on your interpretation. I define "Regular, non-intelligent machines" as applying to anything but Robots and Power amor and the AI units. A regular non-intelligent machine, to me, is an energy rifle, a toaster, a microwave, a radio or a lawn mower, etc. All the fairly simple, regular non-intelligent machines.
In Rifts Sourcebook 1 (non-revised), page 94, there is a definition for power armor and robot vehicles;

1. Robot Accessory units are the most common bots in the world. Many players already own and operate one.
The typical accessory unit is a robot designed for human augmentation, not cybernetics, but a complete robot that requires a human operator. This includes power armor and robot vehicles of all kind. ... The human, by piloting the bot, becomes a giant, super powered, mega-damage being. The mechanical unit is a robot, but it is the human brain and body that directs and controls its every action.

That means that PA units are ROBOTS and NOT "regular, non-intelligent machines", the human brain is for all intents and purposed the units brain, making it immiune to psionic possesion of any sort. Without the operator the unit does not move and has NO POWER so again no psionic possesion.

[Nightmask]

Not really it all depends on your interpretation. I define "Regular, non-intelligent machines" as applying to anything but Robots and Power amor and the AI units. A regular non-intelligent machine, to me, is an energy rifle, a toaster, a microwave, a radio or a lawn mower, etc. All the fairly simple, regular non-intelligent machines.

That's not how Palladium defines a regular, non-intelligent machine nor most anyone else either. There's nothing special about robots and power armor that make them not regular, non-intelligent machines. They've more features but they aren't in some special category. If anything the complexity and extensive microchip technology in the power armors and robots make them easier to control when you've all those sub-systems taking care of the basics. Comparison-wise taking possession of the power armor (as noted in the actual books) is the same as a psychic taking possession of a living being. They don't have problems because a sentient being like a human is more complex than a squirrel, and as explicitly noted in the books power armor has no capacity to resist being usurped at all by powers like Telemechanic Possession. There is no way you can interpret the actual notation that the power CAN easily dominate those things to claim the exact opposite.

In Rifts Sourcebook 1 (non-revised), page 94, there is a definition for power armor and robot vehicles;

1. Robot Accessory units are the most common bots in the world. Many players already own and operate one.
The typical accessory unit is a robot designed for human augmentation, not cybernetics, but a complete robot that requires a human operator. This includes power armor and robot vehicles of all kind. ... The human, by piloting the bot, becomes a giant, super powered, mega-damage being. The mechanical unit is a robot, but it is the human brain and body that directs and controls its every action.

That means that PA units are ROBOTS and NOT "regular, non-intelligent machines", the human brain is for all intents and purposed the units brain, making it immiune to psionic possesion of any sort. Without the operator the unit does not move and has NO POWER so again no psionic possesion.

No, the human brain is not controlling the robot at all and the human is not the robot's motivating force. You're ascribing a level of connection between power armor/robot and pilot that is not there and the text itself makes clear isn't there. The ONLY reason a power armor or vehicle doesn't move on its own is because it needs something to access the actuators, you could put in a remote unit (as seen in several robots in Triax and Mutants in Orbit) and pilot the power armor or robot just fine from the other side of the planet without anyone inside of it at all. This is a case where you're just dead wrong. You can house rule it that there's some impossible bond between the power armor and pilot but that's directly contrary to everything posted in the actual books. When the text says 'this can happen' and you insist 'no it can't', you've got a house rule. There is no ambiguity involved where one can say 'well it can be read either way' in this case.

[Nightmask]

I also like the idea of opening the suit and using the arms to reach in, grab the pilot and pull him apart like a wishbone.

That's be quite messy though, and really sadistic.

[Galroth]

I also like the idea of opening the suit and using the arms to reach in, grab the pilot and pull him apart like a wishbone.

That's be quite messy though, and really sadistic.

That's why it's fun.

[Lenwen]

Not really it all depends on your interpretation. I define "Regular, non-intelligent machines" as applying to anything but Robots and Power amor and the AI units. A regular non-intelligent machine, to me, is an energy rifle, a toaster, a microwave, a radio or a lawn mower, etc. All the fairly simple, regular non-intelligent machines.

To me .. non intelligent machine's .. (and I hazard a guess the majority of the people on the forums) would be PA's Robots or any machine that which can not act upon its own violation..

Take its own actions ..

Make its own judgement ..

Which means Pa's and Piloted Robot armors would in fact fall into that same catagory .

However .. true Robots .. and other such machine's (to include smart bombs and guided missiles) can take actions on their own an do make judgements on their own .. would not be "non-intelligent machines" ..

[Nightmask]

Not really it all depends on your interpretation. I define "Regular, non-intelligent machines" as applying to anything but Robots and Power amor and the AI units. A regular non-intelligent machine, to me, is an energy rifle, a toaster, a microwave, a radio or a lawn mower, etc. All the fairly simple, regular non-intelligent machines.

To me .. non intelligent machine's .. (and I hazard a guess the majority of the people on the forums) would be PA's Robots or any machine that which can not act upon its own violation..

Take its own actions ..

Make its own judgement ..

Which means Pa's and Piloted Robot armors would in fact fall into that same catagory .

However .. true Robots .. and other such machine's (to include smart bombs and guided missiles) can take actions on their own an do make judgements on their own .. would not be "non-intelligent machines" ..

With those being listed as the only items able to resist something like Telemechanic Possession and even they have trouble. Something like a Skelebot needs a 15 to resist and even ARCHIE-3 would require a 12 or better, with additional saves if forced to do something against their programming (the Skelebot won't mind you using it to kill a D-Bee for example but it would definitely not be happy being controlled to kill CS soldiers).

[dragonfett]

Hi guys, I have been going over the FAQ's and found this in the Psionics FAQ's

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/ques ... ionic.html

3. Can telemechanics in rifts control robots and power armor?
Answer: Yes it can.

So officially, by canon rules, Telemechanics Possession CAN be used to mentally control a Power Armor or Robot Vehicle. Reading the rule any other way, therefore, would be a house rule.

[Franfrickle]

keir451 wrote:
In Rifts Sourcebook 1 (non-revised), page 94, there is a definition for power armor and robot vehicles;

1. Robot Accessory units are the most common bots in the world. Many players already own and operate one.
The typical accessory unit is a robot designed for human augmentation, not cybernetics, but a complete robot that requires a human operator. This includes power armor and robot vehicles of all kind. ... The human, by piloting the bot, becomes a giant, super powered, mega-damage being. The mechanical unit is a robot, but it is the human brain and body that directs and controls its every action.That means that PA units are ROBOTS and NOT "regular, non-intelligent machines", the human brain is for all intents and purposed the units brain, making it immiune to psionic possesion of any sort. Without the operator the unit does not move and has NO POWER so again no psionic possesion.

You still fail to see the error of your interpretation, I'm not trying to be condescending. It just boggles me that when it clearly says that it works against these things "no grey area" you still insist its otherwise. I quoted before directly from the book RUE which supersedes every rule in Rifts SB1 especially a non-revised version. I'll quote it again for your sake incase you perhaps don't have the book.

RUE Pg 184
Special. Regular, non-intelligent machines cannot save vs. Tele possession. Artificial intelligences (robots like skelebots) need a 15 or higher to save and sentient machines (like Archie-3) require a 12 or better to save.... next paragraph...The character overrides the programming/controls of the machine, even in the case of sentient machines, and controls it like a robot... next paragraph... While the psychic possess the machine, it responds to the character's thoughts and does whatever he desires. Of course, physical, mechanical limitations still apply. The only real tech that it for sure wont work against is "Attached" bionics or cybernetics and TW items.

The only way this would not work on the PA is if the pilots brain was cybernetically linked directly into the GB or it was a TW item *shudders of mixed fear/excitement*.

Outside of this I did a write up right after Shark_force posted below quote, but sadly lost connection for a several hours so here it is. Better late then never.

about the only fully manual control i would expect is an emergency exit. and heck, if the pilot decides he wants to exit the suit, so much the better.

This is probably the best chance the GB would have to survive in an encounter with an astrally projected Mind Melter. I haven't been able to find anywhere that states the PA has a internal emergency manual bypass for the access hatch, but given my personal knowledge with Armament equipment currently in use by the US Military (YES I know we don't have GB's in the army) which ALL have “atleast” one manual bypass escape hatch incase of emergency, I would be pretty confident to assume that it does too in agreement with above quote. Probably something simple like a pressurized air release lock that doesn't relay on a power source only manually actuating a mechanism which releases a pressurized burst of air disengaging all locking mechanism and allowing for a hatch to be manually pushed open from the inside. This is my opinion anyways based on years of work on military armament/ordinance tech, sadly no PA‘s though. Yet that is.

Plus side to the pilot trying to escape that way is it would eliminate the need to destroy part of the armor to get to the squishy center and instead try taking him out as he climbs out or while he's on the ground, but does leave a slim chance for his survival this way. Here is how I'd roleplay it if trying to salvage the PA. My proposed tactic for this would be to use the same two Psionic abilities mentioned prior, A.P. & T.P., but once possessed instead of giving evidence of such, have the internal display show something like this ”see below“ and using T.P. to shut down all Life Support Systems then display:
*flash* ERROR.....
*flash* ERROR.....
*down-scroll* INTERNAL LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS NONRESPONSIVE.....
*down-scroll* RUNNING INTERNAL LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS DIAGNOSTICS CHECK NOW.....
*flash* ERROR.....
*flash* ERROR.....
*down-scroll* INTERNAL LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS DIAGNOSTICS CHECK NONRESPONSIVE.....
*down-scroll* RUNNING FULL SYSTEMS DIAGNOSTICS CHECK NOW.....
*flash* ERROR.....
*flash* ERROR.....
*down-scroll* FULL SYSTEMS DIAGNOSTICS CHECK NONRESPONSIVE.....
*down-scroll* EMERGENCY SYSTEMS SHUT DOWN PROCEDURES ACTIVATED.....
*down-scroll* IMMEDIATE SYSTEMS SHUT DOWN REQUIRED.....
*down-scroll* FULL SYSTEMS SHUT DOWN IN.....
*flash* 5
*flash* 4
*flash* 3
*flash* 2
*flash* 1
*screen blinks out then either of the following happens*
Using T.P. you could either 1) have the armor automatically release the hatch (I like to think of it as a vertical separation between the chest and back portions while at the same time the head piece elevates to allow ease of passage) at this time, then power down all systems but the power source to be convincing, then reactivate everything as soon as he's out if he decided to leave and commence the rear-whooping, but if he doesn't decide to leave then power her back up and manually try extracting the pilot, or 2) have the armor just power down all said systems except power source and not release the hatch before hand and wait to see what the pilot does before deciding your next course of action.
*Keep in mind from a GM's roleplaying “in character” NPC point of view, at this point the Pilot still probably wont know the suit has been compromised externally as long as no other actions are taken to influence the armor while he's inside and as far as the scenario stated first with the LLW there is no reason to believe the Pilot had knowledge this guy is in the area to begin with so it is very reasonable to assume that it could be viewed by the pilot as just a one-of-those-days (Even the best well cared for vehicles breakdown sometimes, nothing lasts forever especially annoying lil $15 thermal sensors that keep a vehicle from starting) and decide to vacate with stored gear and weapon to nearest aid. There is the off chance he might suspect something given he had a knowledge of such things, but then again as mentioned above there is no sure obvious evidence of such yet, so on a successful skill roll it would verify, but in my opinion instil a decent penalty beforehand. Astral projection does not set off or give any evidence of the MM being there to a normal average adult human, it‘s in the book as part of the description. Also keep in mind Unless your trying to intentionally be a pain in the Arse then there is no reason to try finding every little flaw or loophole, it’s a NPC Opponent for Pete’s sake.
If in the chance he decided to just sit there well he's fully enclosed with limited air, why not get creative by powering on select systems and have the screen display something like
*.....SYSTEMS REBOOT INPROCESS..…*brief pause*…..LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS COMING ONLINE.....*
and set it to continuously *blink* to trick him into thinking it's coming online again, but then only activate the heating system and crank that baby up. (be sure to note to your GM that is all you are reactivating, they can be sticklers for details sometimes) Very soon he'll realize it’s still acting up and have to start making saves to stay conscious and if he still refuses to get out, he'll eventually blackout from heat stroke and eventually die of suffocation. But once yer confident as a PC that he’s out then come in for the easiest kill out there, someone that’s in no position to fight back/defend.

This is how I would RP it if a PC and wanted the max resale for the GB PA and how if rolls were switched I’d GM the encounter and act accordingly.

[keir451]

Hi guys, I have been going over the FAQ's and found this in the Psionics FAQ's

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/ques ... ionic.html

3. Can telemechanics in rifts control robots and power armor?
Answer: Yes it can.

So officially, by canon rules, Telemechanics Possession CAN be used to mentally control a Power Armor or Robot Vehicle. Reading the rule any other way, therefore, would be a house rule.

OK. Granted. Nonetheless MY interpretation of what was written in the books says otherwise. There was nothing in the books that stated that power armor was affected by TM possession. I felt it was a case of people trying to munchkin the system. So in the end all I can really say is "Won't work in MY game".

[Nightmask]

Hi guys, I have been going over the FAQ's and found this in the Psionics FAQ's

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/ques ... ionic.html

3. Can telemechanics in rifts control robots and power armor?
Answer: Yes it can.

So officially, by canon rules, Telemechanics Possession CAN be used to mentally control a Power Armor or Robot Vehicle. Reading the rule any other way, therefore, would be a house rule.

OK. Granted. Nonetheless MY interpretation of what was written in the books says otherwise. There was nothing in the books that stated that power armor was affected by TM possession. I felt it was a case of people trying to munchkin the system. So in the end all I can really say is "Won't work in MY game".

For which we just can't understand how you get to that interpretation when it's the opposite of what's actually written in the rules, and of course the TM Possession power states it affects power armor, and lists what it doesn't work on. If even ARCHIE-3 is at risk and AI like Skelebots you can't achieve the idea that Power Armor as non-AI normal machines are somehow too complex when the Power Armor is less complex than they are. Also nothing munchkin about it, power armor and robots are as far as Telemechanic Possession the same as a living being is to the Mentally Possess Others, something explicitly in the text.

[keir451]

Hi guys, I have been going over the FAQ's and found this in the Psionics FAQ's

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/ques ... ionic.html

3. Can telemechanics in rifts control robots and power armor?
Answer: Yes it can.

So officially, by canon rules, Telemechanics Possession CAN be used to mentally control a Power Armor or Robot Vehicle. Reading the rule any other way, therefore, would be a house rule.

OK. Granted. Nonetheless MY interpretation of what was written in the books says otherwise. There was nothing in the books that stated that power armor was affected by TM possession. I felt it was a case of people trying to munchkin the system. So in the end all I can really say is "Won't work in MY game".

For which we just can't understand how you get to that interpretation when it's the opposite of what's actually written in the rules, and of course the TM Possession power states it affects power armor, and lists what it doesn't work on. If even ARCHIE-3 is at risk and AI like Skelebots you can't achieve the idea that Power Armor as non-AI normal machines are somehow too complex when the Power Armor is less complex than they are. Also nothing munchkin about it, power armor and robots are as far as Telemechanic Possession the same as a living being is to the Mentally Possess Others, something explicitly in the text.

The actual wording of those abilities does NOT in any way shape or form DIRECTLY state that power armor or Robot vehicles are subject to those abilities. ALL it says is that "regular, non intelligent machines" are vulnerable. MY definition of "Regular, non-intelligent machines" does NOT includse Robt Vehicles or Power Armor.
MY definition of "Regular, Non-Intelligent" machines includes simple devices like toaster, a microwave, a laptop computer, or handheld energy weapons. Archie 3 and other AI systems are explicitly stated as having defenses or being immune to those abilities, where as power armor and Robot vehicles are neither specifically stated nor specifically denied, so going by the definiton provided in SB1 I interpreted it as them being immune. Once again, MY game, MY interpretation.
I acknowledge that Kevin (in his lack of infinite wisdom) said otherwise, but until I saw that I based MY interpretations solely off of what I had read and I saw nothing that contradicted that interpretation. Now knowing that ruling does exist, I sat down and thought about how it affects my game and I chose to disregard it as an aspect of blatant muchkinism. That is MY choice.

[Shark_Force]

and your choice is why you think magic and psionics suck. you house rule it into suckitude, take away everything it has, rule against it in every case... and then somehow, it's terrible and not worth taking, and it's all the publisher's fault.

seriously, it's utterly inane that if there was a group of actuators connected to a control circuit (say, an electronic forklift) you would assume it can be controlled, but another series of actuators (say, a robotic arm attached to a robot vehicle) it suddenly can't be controlled.

so if a human being had put their toast in the toaster, does it suddenly become immune to possession? if a human is holding the gun in their hands ready to fire, is it suddenly immune to possession? if a human is using the laptop computer, is it suddenly immune to possession?

if not, then why is it that when a human gets inside a robot or power armor, it suddenly becomes immune to possession (bearing in mind that we explicitly know that it isn't because of the complex control circuits, actuators, etc that control the suit... because the robot that explicitly *can* be possessed has those things).

a robot vehicle or power armor suit is a regular, non-intelligent machine. that is, it consists of ordinary components (not magical ones) and is not intelligent (artificially or otherwise). there's nothing unusual about the the robot vehicle or power armor that is not already found in one way or another in a robot. the actuators that move the limbs, the power supply, the weapons, the sensors, the algorithms that tell it how to move, all those are just as present in a robot without a human pilot.

your explanation does not stand up to scrutiny, and leads to absurd situations where if i was to install an AI into your suit, i could mentally possess it... but not without it. since increasing the intelligence of the device makes it *harder* (according to the power), and not easier, to control, your version does not make sense. it is inconsistent with what the actual rules say, it goes against common sense, it defies logic; you can certainly house-rule it however you want, but don't fool yourself thinking your method is a reasonable interpretation of what the actual rules tell us. it's a complete change from what the rules say about the situation, and no matter how much you pretend otherwise, it won't change what the words in the book say.

[keir451]

and your choice is why you think magic and psionics suck. you house rule it into suckitude, take away everything it has, rule against it in every case... and then somehow, it's terrible and not worth taking, and it's all the publisher's fault.

seriously, it's utterly inane that if there was a group of actuators connected to a control circuit (say, an electronic forklift) you would assume it can be controlled, but another series of actuators (say, a robotic arm attached to a robot vehicle) it suddenly can't be controlled.

so if a human being had put their toast in the toaster, does it suddenly become immune to possession? if a human is holding the gun in their hands ready to fire, is it suddenly immune to possession? if a human is using the laptop computer, is it suddenly immune to possession?

if not, then why is it that when a human gets inside a robot or power armor, it suddenly becomes immune to possession (bearing in mind that we explicitly know that it isn't because of the complex control circuits, actuators, etc that control the suit... because the robot that explicitly *can* be possessed has those things).

a robot vehicle or power armor suit is a regular, non-intelligent machine. that is, it consists of ordinary components (not magical ones) and is not intelligent (artificially or otherwise). there's nothing unusual about the the robot vehicle or power armor that is not already found in one way or another in a robot. the actuators that move the limbs, the power supply, the weapons, the sensors, the algorithms that tell it how to move, all those are just as present in a robot without a human pilot.

your explanation does not stand up to scrutiny, and leads to absurd situations where if i was to install an AI into your suit, i could mentally possess it... but not without it. since increasing the intelligence of the device makes it *harder* (according to the power), and not easier, to control, your version does not make sense. it is inconsistent with what the actual rules say, it goes against common sense, it defies logic; you can certainly house-rule it however you want, but don't fool yourself thinking your method is a reasonable interpretation of what the actual rules tell us. it's a complete change from what the rules say about the situation, and no matter how much you pretend otherwise, it won't change what the words in the book say.

No Shark, I feel that magic in Rifts sucks not because I rule against it, but because I see the pathetic damages that Kevin has listed and shake my head in wonderment as to how anything that crappy could possibly affect something as tough as a GB or tother PA un its or Robot vehicles. He took a set of spells from a FANTASY setting and tried to apply them to an entirely different setting and they just don't work, at least that's the way it seems.
Before the days of a psionic being able to possess machines, it was ruled in the books that magic and psionics could not penetrate enviromentally sealed vehicles or power armor in either direction. Yet now EVERYONE and their brother is saying just the opposite, that CERTAIN psionics get to disregard the most fundamental of rules. A suit of PA is in effect a limited AI as it quite probably has a program installed that is designed to help "it" interpret the pilots actions, but in any case I ruel taht if there is no power then the psion CANNOT possess or control the vehicle. I also say that the pilot can override the attempted possesion in the same manner as an AI system. A forklift is, by my definitons, a "regular, non-intelligent machine", so is toaster with toast in it, unlike Power Armor. A person holding an energy rifle can yank the clip rendering the gun useless, they can also yank the power cord or batery ffrom a laptop rendering it useless (and subsequently ending the possession) MY definitions were formed back when SB 1 came out with ITS definition of Power Armor and Robot Vehicles. As far as an AI, it comes down to a psychic attack roll, but I handle it differently. There's also the fact hat ALL the wonderful powers have EXTREMLY short ranges, so if you're trying while the vehicles occupied by the pilot then he can kill you while you're trying to take over his unit.

[The Beast]

See I would have ruled similar to keir451, but not because they are mecha units. It would have been because the power said "simple machines" and I'd consider a mecha unit to be a complex machine. And I would have applied that from mecha units all the way down to cars and such. A portion of said object, I'd have allowed with no problem, just not the entire thing all at once.

[Galroth]

See I would have ruled similar to keir451, but not because they are mecha units. It would have been because the power said "simple machines" and I'd consider a mecha unit to be a complex machine. And I would have applied that from mecha units all the way down to cars and such. A portion of said object, I'd have allowed with no problem, just not the entire thing all at once.

Except that it explicitly allows possessing Robots, but if they have an AI they get a save. A power armor is no more complex than a full robot so why would a robot be vulnerable but a power armor be invulnerable?

[keir451]

See I would have ruled similar to keir451, but not because they are mecha units. It would have been because the power said "simple machines" and I'd consider a mecha unit to be a complex machine. And I would have applied that from mecha units all the way down to cars and such. A portion of said object, I'd have allowed with no problem, just not the entire thing all at once.

Except that it explicitly allows possessing Robots, but if they have an AI they get a save. A power armor is no more complex than a full robot so why would a robot be vulnerable but a power armor be invulnerable?

The problem is the description IN THE BOOKS does NOT explicitly state that. It's in an FAQ. And while that technically makes it valid, I originally had only the books and what they said. My CURRENT decision to ignore that particular FAQ stems from my previous decisions.
I used two standards, one was that PA & Robot vehicles are not "simple machines" and two was that they were enviromentally sealed so the psionic could not affect anything INSIDE the armor. Telemechanics would allow the psion to understand everything about the macine and operate it FROM THE INSIDE at the stated proficiency levels but he/she could not control it from the outside.

[Galroth]

See I would have ruled similar to keir451, but not because they are mecha units. It would have been because the power said "simple machines" and I'd consider a mecha unit to be a complex machine. And I would have applied that from mecha units all the way down to cars and such. A portion of said object, I'd have allowed with no problem, just not the entire thing all at once.

Except that it explicitly allows possessing Robots, but if they have an AI they get a save. A power armor is no more complex than a full robot so why would a robot be vulnerable but a power armor be invulnerable?

The problem is the description IN THE BOOKS does NOT explicitly state that. It's in an FAQ. And while that technically makes it valid, I originally had only the books and what they said. My CURRENT decision to ignore that particular FAQ stems from my previous decisions.
I used two standards, one was that PA & Robot vehicles are not "simple machines" and two was that they were enviromentally sealed so the psionic could not affect anything INSIDE the armor. Telemechanics would allow the psion to understand everything about the macine and operate it FROM THE INSIDE at the stated proficiency levels but he/she could not control it from the outside.

The problem is you are interchanging the word 'regular' with the word 'simple'. The book description says Regular, non-intelligent machines get no saving throw and you are changing that to somehow mean that because PA's and Robot Vehicles have a human operator that they are somehow less vulnerable than an artificially intelligent machine which only gets a saving throw.

House rule the power into uselessness if you want, just don't try to convince other people to join your crusade since the power already has a built in weakness which you pointed out in that you have to be really close to use it.


Edit: Also the Telemechanic Possession power would affect the entire machine so the environmental seals don't come into play. You wouldn't need to use the controls inside the environmental seals if you can directly actuate the robot/pa because in effect it would be your body while the power was in use.

[keir451]

See I would have ruled similar to keir451, but not because they are mecha units. It would have been because the power said "simple machines" and I'd consider a mecha unit to be a complex machine. And I would have applied that from mecha units all the way down to cars and such. A portion of said object, I'd have allowed with no problem, just not the entire thing all at once.

Except that it explicitly allows possessing Robots, but if they have an AI they get a save. A power armor is no more complex than a full robot so why would a robot be vulnerable but a power armor be invulnerable?

The problem is the description IN THE BOOKS does NOT explicitly state that. It's in an FAQ. And while that technically makes it valid, I originally had only the books and what they said. My CURRENT decision to ignore that particular FAQ stems from my previous decisions.
I used two standards, one was that PA & Robot vehicles are not "simple machines" and two was that they were enviromentally sealed so the psionic could not affect anything INSIDE the armor. Telemechanics would allow the psion to understand everything about the macine and operate it FROM THE INSIDE at the stated proficiency levels but he/she could not control it from the outside.

The problem is you are interchanging the word 'regular' with the word 'simple'. The book description says Regular, non-intelligent machines get no saving throw and you are changing that to somehow mean that because PA's and Robot Vehicles have a human operator that they are somehow less vulnerable than an artificially intelligent machine which only gets a saving throw.

House rule the power into uselessness if you want, just don't try to convince other people to join your crusade since the power already has a built in weakness which you pointed out in that you have to be really close to use it.


Edit: Also the Telemechanic Possession power would affect the entire machine so the environmental seals don't come into play. You wouldn't need to use the controls inside the environmental seals if you can directly actuate the robot/pa because in effect it would be your body while the power was in use.

First of all I'm NOT trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm merely stating my position on it. A position that is not in agrement with everyone else, Secondly NOWHERE does it state that Telemechanics allows the psionic to pilot ANYTHING if they are not inside the drivers compartment. Telemechanics only states that the psionic has "complete (although temporary) knowledge of exactly how the machine operates." I (and apparently many others) say that this means the psychic can PILOT the vehicle at the given percentage as well, but I add that the psychic HAS to be in the control/slash drivers compartment to FULLY operate the vehicle. YOU may house rule that it allows the psionic to controll the SDF-1 for all I care, but I don't agree.
Telemechanic Possesion: "While in mental possesion of a simple machine, the psychic has only a vague awareness of his surroundings..."
I'm not interchanging "regular" with "simple", BOTH words are used to EXPLICITLY describe the types of machines the psychic CAN possess. Absolutely NOTHING is said in the BOOKS under the abilities themselves in either the RUE or Psyscape. Furthermore it is specifically stated in Psyscape that TM Operation "DOES NOT work on artificially intelligent machines. (i.e. intelligent computers, robots, etc,)..." In SB 1 PA units and Robot vehicle are classfied under the Robot heading as Robot Accessory Units, taking them OUT of the "regular, non-intelligent machines/simple machines" category since day one of the sourcebooks printing. TM Possesion allows robots a save, yet again does NOT specifically state that PA and Robot vehicles can be possessed.
Yes, there is the FAQ. Was it Kevin who put it up or someone else? I don't know nor do I care. My ruling has ALWAYS been based off of what is in the books and my interpretation of that material. Just like everyone else.
Here's another little fact; Answer #3 on the FAQ (http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/psionic.html)says that Telemechanics (note NOT TM operation, Paralysis, or Possession, just plain old Telemechanics) allows the character to pilot PA or robot vehicles. Yet on the same page under #23 it states that Telemchanics only allows the character an understanding of how a machine (the Juicers Bio-comp system) works, it does NOT allow the character to control it in any way shape or form. So once again we see an example of Palladium inconsitency. Either Telemechanics allows the character to control things or it doesn't.

[Nightmask]

First of all I'm NOT trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm merely stating my position on it. A position that is not in agrement with everyone else, Secondly NOWHERE does it state that Telemechanics allows the psionic to pilot ANYTHING if they are not inside the drivers compartment. Telemechanics only states that the psionic has "complete (although temporary) knowledge of exactly how the machine operates." I (and apparently many others) say that this means the psychic can PILOT the vehicle at the given percentage as well, but I add that the psychic HAS to be in the control/slash drivers compartment to FULLY operate the vehicle. YOU may house rule that it allows the psionic to controll the SDF-1 for all I care, but I don't agree.
Telemechanic Possesion: "While in mental possesion of a simple machine, the psychic has only a vague awareness of his surroundings..."
I'm not interchanging "regular" with "simple", BOTH words are used to EXPLICITLY describe the types of machines the psychic CAN possess. Absolutely NOTHING is said in the BOOKS under the abilities themselves in either the RUE or Psyscape. Furthermore it is specifically stated in Psyscape that TM Operation "DOES NOT work on artificially intelligent machines. (i.e. intelligent computers, robots, etc,)..." In SB 1 PA units and Robot vehicle are classfied under the Robot heading as Robot Accessory Units, taking them OUT of the "regular, non-intelligent machines/simple machines" category since day one of the sourcebooks printing. TM Possesion allows robots a save, yet again does NOT specifically state that PA and Robot vehicles can be possessed.
Yes, there is the FAQ. Was it Kevin who put it up or someone else? I don't know nor do I care. My ruling has ALWAYS been based off of what is in the books and my interpretation of that material. Just like everyone else.

That is not what is stated in the Psyscape book at all regarding Telemechanic Operation, and you also need to finish that quote where it states that if the machine being possessed has any sort of sensors like optics or audio pick-ups he may use them as if they were his own senses. One may use a possessed device and all of its functions but cannot add any other functions like make a disabled tank mobile again. You are also ignoring the body of the text on the power which right after referencing regular, non-intelligent machines to explicit note that it DOES work on artificially intelligent machines anything that isn't artificially intelligent has no save at all against control. Obviously the power armor is just a simple thing in the text and has no ability to not be controlled.

Also I have to wonder why you reference not being able to affect things inside the armor when he's not trying to affect the pilot he's affecting the armor itself just as he may a skelebot or CS Spider Walker. You're drawing an erroneous conclusion about what 'regular' and 'simple' mean. Power armor and robots without AI that make use of pilots are regular, simple machines. They have no self-motivation and are simply tools. A complex machine is one with an AI or transferred intelligence or similar level of autonomy. To someone with Telemechanic Possession a suit of power armor is just a simple, easily controlled tool no different than a lap-top.

The only place where one might be able to argue that the armor is safe from control is if the pilot is a Psi-Tech or similar individual able to merge in some fashion with the Power Armor (Machine Merge or Mechano-Link Major Super Power for example). In this case the armor or vehicle is explicitly operating as an extension of the pilot and is in the same category as bionic implants are. You're no longer just a driver pushing switches you're the vehicle itself.

[keir451]

First of all I'm NOT trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm merely stating my position on it. A position that is not in agrement with everyone else, Secondly NOWHERE does it state that Telemechanics allows the psionic to pilot ANYTHING if they are not inside the drivers compartment. Telemechanics only states that the psionic has "complete (although temporary) knowledge of exactly how the machine operates." I (and apparently many others) say that this means the psychic can PILOT the vehicle at the given percentage as well, but I add that the psychic HAS to be in the control/slash drivers compartment to FULLY operate the vehicle. YOU may house rule that it allows the psionic to controll the SDF-1 for all I care, but I don't agree.
Telemechanic Possesion: "While in mental possesion of a simple machine, the psychic has only a vague awareness of his surroundings..."
I'm not interchanging "regular" with "simple", BOTH words are used to EXPLICITLY describe the types of machines the psychic CAN possess. Absolutely NOTHING is said in the BOOKS under the abilities themselves in either the RUE or Psyscape. Furthermore it is specifically stated in Psyscape that TM Operation "DOES NOT work on artificially intelligent machines. (i.e. intelligent computers, robots, etc,)..." In SB 1 PA units and Robot vehicle are classfied under the Robot heading as Robot Accessory Units, taking them OUT of the "regular, non-intelligent machines/simple machines" category since day one of the sourcebooks printing. TM Possesion allows robots a save, yet again does NOT specifically state that PA and Robot vehicles can be possessed.
Yes, there is the FAQ. Was it Kevin who put it up or someone else? I don't know nor do I care. My ruling has ALWAYS been based off of what is in the books and my interpretation of that material. Just like everyone else.

That is not what is stated in the Psyscape book at all regarding Telemechanic Operation, and you also need to finish that quote where it states that if the machine being possessed has any sort of sensors like optics or audio pick-ups he may use them as if they were his own senses. One may use a possessed device and all of its functions but cannot add any other functions like make a disabled tank mobile again. You are also ignoring the body of the text on the power which right after referencing regular, non-intelligent machines to explicit note that it DOES work on artificially intelligent machines anything that isn't artificially intelligent has no save at all against control. Obviously the power armor is just a simple thing in the text and has no ability to not be controlled.

Also I have to wonder why you reference not being able to affect things inside the armor when he's not trying to affect the pilot he's affecting the armor itself just as he may a skelebot or CS Spider Walker. You're drawing an erroneous conclusion about what 'regular' and 'simple' mean. Power armor and robots without AI that make use of pilots are regular, simple machines. They have no self-motivation and are simply tools. A complex machine is one with an AI or transferred intelligence or similar level of autonomy. To someone with Telemechanic Possession a suit of power armor is just a simple, easily controlled tool no different than a lap-top.

The only place where one might be able to argue that the armor is safe from control is if the pilot is a Psi-Tech or similar individual able to merge in some fashion with the Power Armor (Machine Merge or Mechano-Link Major Super Power for example). In this case the armor or vehicle is explicitly operating as an extension of the pilot and is in the same category as bionic implants are. You're no longer just a driver pushing switches you're the vehicle itself.

I think you need to put on your reading glasses sir, I'm lloking at the description of Tm Operation and it explicitly states that it "does not work on artificially intelligent machines(i.e. intelligent computers, robots, etc.)" It's right there in black and white on pg. 44 of Psyscape. Of course your prining may have had that removed, i cannot say. All I know is what MY book says and it does NOT agree with what everyone else is saying. TM Possession, however, DOES work on A.I.s from the skelebot up to Archie 3.
I stand partially corrected, TM possession does indeed list empty power armor. But that is also quite specific inthat it is EMPTY POWER ARMOR, nothing is mentioned about possessing PA while the pilot is operating it.
So I admit the error of my initial assumptions regarding TM Possesion (but ONLY TM Possession), I had apparently missed that little paragraph in the middle of the description.
I formally apologize.