WP Chain and no entangle

[FatherMorpheus]

So, a player pointed this out, and it just didn't make sense to me. Why is it, WP Chain specifically state that it can't be used to entangle?

It would seem that the vast majority of weapons which are listed in WP Chain are ideal for use to entangle a target.

Anyone know the logic behind this? If there is another post, please point me to it. If not, anyone know?

FM

[drewkitty ~..~]

Then you are looking in the wrong book for the said skill. Mystic China's WP Chain has an entangle bonus.

[FatherMorpheus]

Then you are looking in the wrong book for the said skill. Mystic China's WP Chain has an entangle bonus.

Then that is the only one which doesn't say it. Rifts, Fantasy, Heroes Unlimited, and I think even Nightspawn say that you can't.

It is kind of screwy.
FM

[drewkitty ~..~]

The wonders of copy and paste production.

I think it is because N&S and MC is more hand to hand centric that the other settings. And the EW had some input into the WP's in N&S & MC, so that might be a difference.
[Looked at Rifts china 2, another EW book, and didn't find any corrected WP chain.]

I just noted that the WP Whip has the same deficiency as WP chain, that is lacks the entangle bonus.

[Prysus]

So, a player pointed this out, and it just didn't make sense to me. Why is it, WP Chain specifically state that it can't be used to entangle?

It would seem that the vast majority of weapons which are listed in WP Chain are ideal for use to entangle a target.

Anyone know the logic behind this? If there is another post, please point me to it. If not, anyone know?

FM

Greetings and Salutations. Hmm ... that is an interesting question. This is the best logic I came up with (though I'll note I'm not weapon expert) ...

Most of the weapons aren't designed to entangle, they're designed to do damage. Take the nunchaku for instance. While there is flexibility there, it's not really designed to wrap around naturally (at least with ease, of course this is dependent on the amount of chain as well). I can say I'm nigh positive I've seen it used to entangle in a Bruce Lee movie for example (and I'm going on memory here), but I'm also pretty sure he basically had to wrap it around the limb. Something similar can be done with a piece of cloth, or any flexible item really. While you can use the weapon that way, it's not the way the weapon is designed (and at the very least receives no inherent bonus, because you're basically going to do the work yourself).

Let's look at the mace and chain. While this weapon has a chain, the actual weapon part is the spiked mace at the front. Similar with a ball and chain. This massive weight at the front (I'm going to guess) makes it more difficult to use as just an entangle. It's more likely to smash and shatter something than just wrap around. ((Again, I've never actually used one so mine is just following a certain logic, though I don't know if it's right. Of course, even if it's not right, this could be the logic which was followed in design. I don't know.))

Now a chain, on its own, might very well entangle far better (or so I've heard, haven't used one of those either). Chains naturally try to wrap around thing (so I've heard, never experimented). Without anything else attached, there is little to stand in the way, but is also the exception of most of the other weapons (and you may even consider using W.P. Whip to fit this concept better, even though I know they're separate conceptually it might be close enough). While the chain for a ball and chain might also want to wrap, the weighted ball at the front would make that more difficult. It would more likely push an arm down or knock something to the side. Something would have to be solid and set to really entangle (meaning the person would have to be braced and TRYING to get entangled, which isn't a bad thing if they want the ball and chain to be locked around something and not swinging death at them).

Again, this is all provided without actual weapon training (well, minor sword and minor staff training, but both were very limited and far from expert). This is just looking at the items, having seen them in use, and trying to apply the logic that would explain this. Mind you, I believe when I first read W.P. Chain I thought, "They can't entangle?" too. Then I forgot about it and didn't give it any more thought until today. Hopefully some of this helped (even though I can't speak for the real world accuracy). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



Oh yeah, P.S. ...

I just noted that the WP Whip has the same deficiency as WP chain, that is lacks the entangle bonus.

Not sure what book you're looking at then. PF2, R:UE, HU2, and Mystic China ALL have an entangle bonus for W.P. Whip. You may want to read again (and more closely).

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip..
Oh yeah, P.S. ...

I just noted that the WP Whip has the same deficiency as WP chain, that is lacks the entangle bonus.

Not sure what book you're looking at then. PF2, R:UE, HU2, and Mystic China ALL have an entangle bonus for W.P. Whip. You may want to read again (and more closely).[/justify]

Not sure which book I was looking at.

[FatherMorpheus]

[justify]

So, a player pointed this out, and it just didn't make sense to me. Why is it, WP Chain specifically state that it can't be used to entangle?

It would seem that the vast majority of weapons which are listed in WP Chain are ideal for use to entangle a target.

Anyone know the logic behind this? If there is another post, please point me to it. If not, anyone know?

FM

Greetings and Salutations. Hmm ... that is an interesting question. This is the best logic I came up with (though I'll note I'm not weapon expert) ...

Most of the weapons aren't designed to entangle, they're designed to do damage. Take the nunchaku for instance. While there is flexibility there, it's not really designed to wrap around naturally (at least with ease, of course this is dependent on the amount of chain as well).
<snip>

Let's look at the mace and chain. While this weapon has a chain, the actual weapon part is the spiked mace at the front. Similar with a ball and chain. This massive weight at the front (I'm going to guess) makes it more difficult to use as just an entangle.

<snip>

Now a chain, on its own, might very well entangle far better (or so I've heard, haven't used one of those either). Chains naturally try to wrap around thing (so I've heard, never experimented). Without anything else attached, there is little to stand in the way, but is also the exception of most of the other weapons (and you may even consider using W.P. Whip to fit this concept better,

<snip>

Again, this is all provided without actual weapon training
<snip>

Thanks for the reply, I didn't think about any of this. I assumed it wasn't your Bolo style wrap the person up. But more like a disabling of the opponent from attacking you with something.

So I wondered how Palladium defined 'entangle' I looked it up in RUE. To paraphrase p345 2nd column at the top, a defender can attempt to trap a weapon or arm of the attacker. The vast majority of the weapons, with training, can do just that. I've personally used a length of chain to do this, a Flail and Ball & Chain are also excellent at this. Nun-chuck, not only can you entangle someones weapon, arm or neck, but it is also a great tool for restraining someone.

I could see you using most of these also to disarm, but that is another rabbit hole to go down. Now this exclusion of Entangle in RUE (and other books) seems even more odd to me.

Thoughts?
FM

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I'm going to start by saying I have no intention of arguing (so please don't take it that way). As I said, I have no personal experience with such weapons, so I'm in no position to say what can and can't work. But I am curious to a few things, so I will ask a couple questions.

I've personally used a length of chain to do this, a Flail and Ball & Chain are also excellent at this.

Okay, you sayd you've used a length of chain then go on to mention the Flail and Ball & Chain. Have you used these as well? Or are you extrapolating from how an unweighted chain would work?

If you have used them, have you used them on more flexible/moving objects, or something more hard and rigid (because I'm hoping you haven't used something like a ball and chain on real people)?

I ask this because these things can change things. For example: If you use it on something hard and (more or less) locked into place, it's less likely to matter how much weight is applied. On the other hand, people aren't that hard and immovable. Have a person stick their hand out and push down hard on it. Unless the person is actively trying to resist, their hand will drop/move.

Nun-chuck, not only can you entangle someones weapon, arm or neck, but it is also a great tool for restraining someone.

For this one I don't deny that it can be used to entangle. But I'll ask how natural is it for the weapon? I mean, if you swing the nunchaku will it wrap around itself, or do you have to grab both ends and then use them to move the chain to wrap around?

Example: The opponent throws a punch and you swing the nunchaku. Does the chain wraps around the wrist naturally, and you may grab the other side to hold into place? Or is it you hold both ends and you manually manipulate/twist the chain around the wrist (holding both ends of the nunchaku for control)?

Because if it's the latter, then it's not a weapon bonus. You're still doing the work, you just happen to be doing it with the nunchaku. The book doesn't say it can't be used for entangle, it says it can't be done with any accuracy (no bonus). If it's the former (where the weapon is doing most of the work), then I'll grant that maybe it should have a bonus. If you feel it's neither of these, please explain.

Anyways, just trying to get a better idea (I'm always up for learning). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[FatherMorpheus]

Greetings and Salutations. I'm going to start by saying I have no intention of arguing (so please don't take it that way). As I said, I have no personal experience with such weapons, so I'm in no position to say what can and can't work. But I am curious to a few things, so I will ask a couple questions.

Don't say 'arguing' like it is a bad thing. I enjoy debate on these topics. I don't take things online personally, well not normally. So no worries there.

Okay, you sayd you've used a length of chain then go on to mention the Flail and Ball & Chain. Have you used these as well? Or are you extrapolating from how an unweighted chain would work?

If you have used them, have you used them on more flexible/moving objects, or something more hard and rigid (because I'm hoping you haven't used something like a ball and chain on real people)?

I ask this because these things can change things. For example: If you use it on something hard and (more or less) locked into place, it's less likely to matter how much weight is applied. On the other hand, people aren't that hard and immovable. Have a person stick their hand out and push down hard on it. Unless the person is actively trying to resist, their hand will drop/move.

I wrote that horribly, but I've used a length of chain, and a flail and a ball & chain. The chain was metal chain, the flail was a stick with metal chain, the ball & chain was wooden shaft, leather thong and heavy foam 'ball'. Think SCA style weapon. All of them basically wrap up the opponents weapon, and or arm/hand with weapon. I'd use a real one against someone who was wearing metal gauntlets and chain, but thus far I've had no volunteers.

Keep in mind, Palladium's idea for Entangle is a defenders action against the attacker. Basically they come in to attack with a melee weapon and you disable that attack by entangling them. It is done instead of parrying or dodging them. Not exactly how I see it, but that is how they are seeing it.

Nun-chuck, not only can you entangle someones weapon, arm or neck, but it is also a great tool for restraining someone.

For this one I don't deny that it can be used to entangle. But I'll ask how natural is it for the weapon? I mean, if you swing the nunchaku will it wrap around itself, or do you have to grab both ends and then use them to move the chain to wrap around?

Example: The opponent throws a punch and you swing the nunchaku. Does the chain wraps around the wrist naturally, and you may grab the other side to hold into place? Or is it you hold both ends and you manually manipulate/twist the chain around the wrist (holding both ends of the nunchaku for control)?

Because if it's the latter, then it's not a weapon bonus. You're still doing the work, you just happen to be doing it with the nunchaku. The book doesn't say it can't be used for entangle, it says it can't be done with any accuracy (no bonus). If it's the former (where the weapon is doing most of the work), then I'll grant that maybe it should have a bonus. If you feel it's neither of these, please explain.

Anyways, just trying to get a better idea (I'm always up for learning). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Your example is really close to how it is used. Someone throws a punch, you 'catch' the punch by swinging the nunchaku around the arm, grabbing one wooden shaft in both hands. Pinning and twisting them away from you. To me it is the skill of being able to control the weapon to swing it around, catch it and then put them in the 'entangle' position.

Though, your comments make me wonder your point of view on how a Palladium Weapon Proficiency works. Do you feel that it is the weapon which provides it or the training with that weapon? I've always seen it as the person's training with the weapon. A sword doesn't have a +1 to strike, the person knows how to use it thus they have the +1 to strike. The premise of this question is based on not a Nunchaku having a bonus to entangle, but the person knowing how to control the nunchaku in a fashion which allows them to entangle their opponent with it. Or am I miss understanding your difference between the weapon and the person?

And BTW, it does say 'This weapon cannot be used to entangle'. It isn't about not getting a bonus. It actually says it can't be done. This adds to my confusion on the WP in general.

[Prysus]

Don't say 'arguing' like it is a bad thing. I enjoy debate on these topics. I don't take things online personally, well not normally. So no worries there.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, a lot of people do take things personally, so I try to be extra civil as a result (not that it stops some people from taking things personal anyways). I won't get into specifics, I'll just say bad experiences making me extra cautious.

I wrote that horribly, but I've used a length of chain, and a flail and a ball & chain. The chain was metal chain, the flail was a stick with metal chain, the ball & chain was wooden shaft, leather thong and heavy foam 'ball'. Think SCA style weapon. All of them basically wrap up the opponents weapon, and or arm/hand with weapon. I'd use a real one against someone who was wearing metal gauntlets and chain, but thus far I've had no volunteers.

I think the weight of the real thing could play a part here (as I described with pushing down on someone's arm). I don't know for sure though. My theory (and it is only a theory, I'm sure someone out there knows the facts) is that the weight of the real weapons would be more inclined to push a person's arm out of the way. This doesn't mean impossible, just that it's much harder (due to natural body movement) and a person would (almost) have to intentionally resist to get entangled (not considering luck/flukes/environmental factors/etc.). Though I don't know for sure. And, of course, this theory would only apply to heavier weapons like ball and chain (not the lighter ones like chain, or nunchaku).

Your example is really close to how it is used. Someone throws a punch, you 'catch' the punch by swinging the nunchaku around the arm, grabbing one wooden shaft in both hands. Pinning and twisting them away from you. To me it is the skill of being able to control the weapon to swing it around, catch it and then put them in the 'entangle' position.

So the former then, where the weapon is swinging around the wrist and you're grabbing it. Hmm ... okay, maybe it should have a bonus then.

Though, your comments make me wonder your point of view on how a Palladium Weapon Proficiency works. Do you feel that it is the weapon which provides it or the training with that weapon?
[snip]
Or am I miss understanding your difference between the weapon and the person?

Okay, this time I spoke horribly. I do believe the W.P. bonus comes from the wielder's skill with the weapon. I'll try to explain the difference (or what I was saying would be the difference).

Take something like a ... a ... can't think of the official name of it, but this type of glove that would attach to your hand and have spikes (I've seen them, but can't think of their names). Or, for that matter, something like brass knuckles. Yes, it's the Brass Knuckle doing the damage. But no, there shouldn't be a W.P. Brass Knuckle regardless. It's still a punch. It's reliant upon your skill.

If you look at the example, one of them basically had you wrapping the nunchaku around the person's arm (basically tying someone up, but done in a quick/faster motion that makes it combat possible ... and if you can't picture this I don't know if I can explain any better). This motion could be done just as easily with a piece of cloth, a chain, a telephone cord, etc. The weapon is irrelevent, it just happens to be what is in my hands. Replace it with any other object (or even my bare hands) and the result is pretty much the same (though the weapon, whatever it is, can provide other bonuses such as added leverage to help keep entangled). However, if it can be done with the weapon but the weapon is irrelevent in the technique, then I'd say no W.P. Not sure if I explained that well.

And BTW, it does say 'This weapon cannot be used to entangle'. It isn't about not getting a bonus. It actually says it can't be done. This adds to my confusion on the WP in general.

Hmm ... so it does. I read: "cannot entangle and cannot be thrown with any accuracy" and interpreted more as: "cannot entangle or be thrown with any accuracy." My version says you can do either, but just without accuracy (no bonus). The other ways says you can't do one, and the other can't be done with accuracy. Reading it again with fresh eyes, I'll admit the way you read it sounds more accurate from the wording. My mistake and good catch on your part.

Okay, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[FatherMorpheus]

Same to you Prysus. No real answers either way here.

Anyone else have thoughts?

FM

[drewkitty ~..~]

I think the WP chain in rifts is in reference to the use of a heavy chain weapons that are ment to damage. While the WP Chain in N&S and MC are meant for chain weapons used to entangle, for the most part.