Rifts in need of a whole new system?

[Killer Cyborg]

I think you're being paranoid, Negalith.

[Nether]

Never gave much thought to the 'who will run the company in 10 years' as i am still on the 'will the company survive 10 more years' mentality.

Gamers on this site and elsewhere have been trying and trying to help PB spring back and come on strong but unfortunately all i've really seen in 6 years sinse the crisis is not very much. They could have done comics by now, or web comics, to flash games or rifts ext. The FB launch wasn't very friendly either and has left a bad taste in many mouths.

A great number of us fans have been asking for a newer system and rules collected but we haven't seen or heard anything on that. And now they have a thread to collect rules ext which is how many years late after a crysis and on top is there really been that much work gone into it? If the creators know the rules so well then why is it so hard for the 'professionals' to update and collect all of thier game rules in one spot? Should all these rules already be in a collected spot in thier system as they add or adjust them?

I have house rules like "everyone" does, and mine are kept orderly on my computer and as anything changes or updates i update it in one spot and eventually my backup software will port it over to the nas. So why is this so hard for PB to do?

To me it just sounds like alot of excuses coming from the people that know this system inside out sinse day one and make it sound like they are running maintenance on the space shuttle in how complex and difficult it is to maintain.

The thing is, when they declared their crysis many years ago and weren't sure if they were going to sink, i was really hoping that he would have considered selling the company to save himself and his extended family there, then we would have gotten to see someone maybe run it more above board and put some money into it. That could have turned it around but unfortunately we are still seeing them in dire straights as they so far haven't been able to revitalize the company in the market. As for a movie, i still don't think we will ever see one made, with the exception PB makes some huge changes and becomes very popular in the public eye again, and more than ever.

[Nether]

umm not a lot of response here. i thought it would have been a hotter topic than this,

This topic has come up sooooo much that the fans here and the creators have become so desensitized that its just considered wishful thinking at best, and a annoyance in the norm.

[Killer Cyborg]

A great number of us fans have been asking for a newer system and rules collected but we haven't seen or heard anything on that.

Except for compilation books like the BoM and the RGMG, and all the rule changes the system has gone through over the years in order to try to make the fans happy, including RUE.
And except for the recent requests for rule suggestions that Alex put up on the forums.

I have house rules like "everyone" does, and mine are kept orderly on my computer and as anything changes or updates i update it in one spot and eventually my backup software will port it over to the nas. So why is this so hard for PB to do?

Because Kevin doesn't have any real problems running the system.
Which means that he's not having the same problems that a lot of the rest of us have, and if he doesn't have the problems, he doesn't see them, which makes it a heck of a lot harder for him to fix.

The thing is, when they declared their crysis many years ago and weren't sure if they were going to sink, i was really hoping that he would have considered selling the company to save himself and his extended family there, then we would have gotten to see someone maybe run it more above board and put some money into it.

I'm mixed on that one. New ownership could make the company better, OR it could just torpedo it instead.
I'd rather see Rifts flat-out die off than see it converted to something like D&D 4.0.

As for a movie, i still don't think we will ever see one made, with the exception PB makes some huge changes and becomes very popular in the public eye again, and more than ever.

Unless we're talking sudden Pokemon proportions of popularity, which isn't going to happen just from a new system, no matter how good, it's not going to affect the movie or lack thereof.

[Killer Cyborg]

Kevin's only 55 or so.
Odds are, he'll be running the company in 10 years.
Barring any serious health issues, I'd wager that he'll be running things in 20 years, whatever form the company is in by then.

I don't know that this is the best plan for him or for the company; I agree with the assessment that he takes on far too much on his own.
But I'm 100% behind his right to do it.
He built the empire, and he gets to be emperor, and run things how he wants, until he decides to move on or (more likely) until he dies.

[Nether]

Because Kevin doesn't have any real problems running the system.
Which means that he's not having the same problems that a lot of the rest of us have, and if he doesn't have the problems, he doesn't see them, which makes it a heck of a lot harder for him to fix.

That i dont buy because if KS doesnt have this problem and knows all the rules then they wouldnt be asking for fans to do thier work andcollect the rules, KS could just say õh thats easy, i have it right hereç. Then he just puts out all the rules in one place. KS doesnt come across as a rules heavy gm, and i would guess its not a issue because he does not emphasize the rules in his games.

I think KS is always testing rules and runs diff variations, making it that not even he knows all the rules on the tip of his tongue and which book, hence why they are asking fans to help them for free.

And if he doesnt see the issues his consumers have then he has no place running a businessç but i do think he is aware of the issues and hasnt gotten a answer for how to address them or even thinks they need addressing.

[Shark_Force]

there seems to be an awful lot of misconceptions about the "no conversions" rule for something that can be found right at the top of the page.

"6. Conversions
Posting the conversion (adaptation) of non-Palladium intellectual property to the Palladium Books game system will not be tolerated. Sorry. And in the same way,
Palladium property may not be converted to other game systems. For a longer explanation of this policy, read on. "


i rather suspect this is the particular rule that negalith is worried about. so long as he doesn't actually convert everything to another game system, and doesn't use anyone else's IP, he should be fine, as i understand it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Because Kevin doesn't have any real problems running the system.
Which means that he's not having the same problems that a lot of the rest of us have, and if he doesn't have the problems, he doesn't see them, which makes it a heck of a lot harder for him to fix.

That i dont buy because if KS doesnt have this problem and knows all the rules then they wouldnt be asking for fans to do thier work andcollect the rules, KS could just say õh thats easy, i have it right hereç.

He doesn't know all the rules.
He doesn't use all the rules.
He's one of those GMs who lets story over-ride mechanics, and who is more interested in using the rules as guidelines than as trying to obey them like a robot.
If you tell him that you had to stop a session in order to sift through a half-dozen books in order to find the rules on MDC creatures and falling damage, he'd probably just be puzzled at why you didn't just make it up or fudge it.
A lot of the rules of the game, he puts there because people ask for them, not because he thinks that they're necessary.

I think KS is always testing rules and runs diff variations, making it that not even he knows all the rules on the tip of his tongue and which book, hence why they are asking fans to help them for free.

When did they ask fans to help them out for free?
As far as I knew, it was Artemis who was interested in compiling the rules.

And if he doesnt see the issues his consumers have then he has no place running a businessç

There's more to business than dealing with customer complaints.
If you think you can do a better job of running a game company, then do it.
Just saying that the man has no place running a business, when he's been doing just that for 30 years, sounds pretty naive.
Kev's obviously not perfect, but it's pretty clear that he has plenty of business strengths as well as his weaknesses.

[Nether]

Because Kevin doesn't have any real problems running the system.
Which means that he's not having the same problems that a lot of the rest of us have, and if he doesn't have the problems, he doesn't see them, which makes it a heck of a lot harder for him to fix.

That i dont buy because if KS doesnt have this problem and knows all the rules then they wouldnt be asking for fans to do thier work andcollect the rules, KS could just say õh thats easy, i have it right hereç.

He doesn't know all the rules.
He doesn't use all the rules.
He's one of those GMs who lets story over-ride mechanics, and who is more interested in using the rules as guidelines than as trying to obey them like a robot.
If you tell him that you had to stop a session in order to sift through a half-dozen books in order to find the rules on MDC creatures and falling damage, he'd probably just be puzzled at why you didn't just make it up or fudge it.
A lot of the rules of the game, he puts there because people ask for them, not because he thinks that they're necessary.

I think KS is always testing rules and runs diff variations, making it that not even he knows all the rules on the tip of his tongue and which book, hence why they are asking fans to help them for free.

When did they ask fans to help them out for free?
As far as I knew, it was Artemis who was interested in compiling the rules.

And if he doesnt see the issues his consumers have then he has no place running a businessç

There's more to business than dealing with customer complaints.
If you think you can do a better job of running a game company, then do it.
Just saying that the man has no place running a business, when he's been doing just that for 30 years, sounds pretty naive.
Kev's obviously not perfect, but it's pretty clear that he has plenty of business strengths as well as his weaknesses.

Actually i was referreing to a post AlexM started in regards to rules collection, i believe it is house rules collection ext. for streamlining the system i believe. I would have to look it up again.

You have a inability with the way you post to address the overall issue. You completely misquoted me, and then on top you missed the point and went off thinking that i attacked KS when i didn't.

Wow, dude go back and reread what i said and stop quoting out of context.
It is hard to debate a subject with you as you completely break it down into little points that then lose all focus to the context, making any discussion pointless.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually i was referreing to a post AlexM started in regards to rules collection, i believe it is house rules collection ext. for streamlining the system i believe. I would have to look it up again.

You mean the three or more threads he started so that fans/customers can give their input on rule changes they'd like to see (and changes they'd hate to see)?
The only rule compilation section here I know of was started by Artemis.

You have a inability with the way you post to address the overall issue.

What do you see as the issue?

You completely misquoted me,

Odd, considering I used the message board's quote feature, which only rarely changes the text of the original post.
I can't see any differences between your original post and the quoted text in my response, but if you see any, let me know and I'll report the bug to the mods.

Wow, dude go back and reread what i said and stop quoting out of context.
It is hard to debate a subject with you as you completely break it down into little points that then lose all focus to the context, making any discussion pointless.

I've found that the alternative is that you have two or more people tossing monologues at each other while ignoring all of the other person's actual points.
I like to break things down and address them point-by-point. If the points don't make sense individually, they aren't going to make sense collectively either.
Again, though, feel free to restate whatever point you were trying to get across, if you feel that I have not adequately addressed it.

[Killer Cyborg]

I bet the D&D people were totally stoked when they got 4.0 after all the change they asked for.....

No but on a serious note I'm with KC on this one. The rules are the least important thing in any roleplaying game(IMHO) To me the most important things is the story and the setting that's it. If something is really important and vital such as something happens that seems a bit iffy an a PC dies, sure we may look up the rule, but otherwise we just go by whatever makes sense.

I don't know why people want every single rules mapped out anyway doesn't seem that important.

If you have a PE of 20 why do you need to know exaclty to the # how many steps you can take before you get tired? Well then you have to factor in food, water, weather, etc... Yeah who cares. You've been walking 2 days without much to eat or drink, you're tired. See that don't need a rule only common sense.

I actually often prefer systems that cover as much as possible.
The point is, I'm not Kevin. He works differently than I do.
I'd love to see the Palladium rules cleaned up, organized, and streamlined, and I even think that it's important for Palladium to do at some point (I've been asking for it for 20 years).
The rules are very important, it's just that they're not the whole kit and kaboodle.
And I recognize that me wanting it doesn't make it possible; there are more factors present than simply my desires.

[Blue_Lion]

Rifts ultimate Edition had some major rule over halls in it. Most of the converted rules people refer to are optional. Most of the main rules for combat and what not are found in RUE and is the most updated sorce. However a GM can always choose to modify the rules to there taste. I left a game I was running because the people woring about one minor game rule ate up an hour of game time. one of the charters had attacked a balrog with a double attack with twin fighting stile, the balrog did a Simultaneous attack and he wanted to parry with his tale because it counted as a weapon. I said he could not then two players Kept going on about it so noisly no one could hear anything else. So I called the session because nothing could get done. (and no was not two charters pestering me they where actualy aurging with eachother and whould not stop.)

[Nether]

I bet the D&D people were totally stoked when they got 4.0 after all the change they asked for.....

No but on a serious note I'm with KC on this one. The rules are the least important thing in any roleplaying game(IMHO) To me the most important things is the story and the setting that's it. If something is really important and vital such as something happens that seems a bit iffy an a PC dies, sure we may look up the rule, but otherwise we just go by whatever makes sense.

I don't know why people want every single rules mapped out anyway doesn't seem that important.

If you have a PE of 20 why do you need to know exaclty to the # how many steps you can take before you get tired? Well then you have to factor in food, water, weather, etc... Yeah who cares. You've been walking 2 days without much to eat or drink, you're tired. See that don't need a rule only common sense.

Hey Rolling, i completely agree with you that a Rifts system upgrade to the equivalent of dnd 4e would be a huge mistake and only make things worse. But they could do teh 3.0 to 3.5 and that i think is what most would want.

As for why the system is important for many, is because many gm's out there change the rules to fit what they want regardless if it is fair or no. Kind of like the card game and the dealer keeps changing the rules to favor him and you the player keep getting screwed over unfairly.

Then there is the player side that abuses the gm, looking for exploitive rules that they can well exploit over the gm unfairly.

Overall though the rule system is there to show what you can and cannot do. Without a rule system you then have a comic book world where character x powers work one way today, and then tomorrow they work a different way making it so he could never have done what he did yesterday.

It is great that you can play with so little rules interaction but that takes a good gm and players to make that work otherwise you have what i would consider the norm i listed above. But if the rules overall are not that important to your group them you prolly wouldn't mind if they did update them for the people that do. They set the standard to help keep things fair, and also make the game run smooth.

As to your PE example, well how long can someone with PE 12 go for without sustenance, what about 25? What about supernatural PE or 30? It doesn't have to be down to the last footstep, but you do need something that says x so everyone knows what a stat of that number rudimentarily allows.

[Nether]

You partially quoted

And if he doesnt see the issues his consumers have then he has no place running a businessç

The full sentence

And if he doesnt see the issues his consumers have then he has no place running a businessç but i do think he is aware of the issues and hasnt gotten a answer for how to address them or even thinks they need addressing.

When you read just the first half of the sentence then it sounds like what you said, but that was only one of two points being made in that phrase. So i clearly exempt KS from the failure there, but you only pick and choose a portion of it.

You debate each point for argueing the points sake only, but you don't argue it in regards to how it affects the context which is the only reason you argue said points. Over arching concepts and ideas are just that, made up of smaller points, but all of those points are in reference to how they affect the concept, otherwise there is no point in discussing them.

[Killer Cyborg]

On a side not Killer me and you both now Kev does not use the system as written, this is why he isn't seeing the problems. It's hard to see them when you are blind to them by choice.

Kevin doesn't use the system as written, as far as I can tell, because for the most part he's not writing it for HIM; he's writing it for customers and fans.

For example:
People complained that they died too easily when they got shot a lot, so he made the GI Joe rule..
For them.
He doesn't use it, because he didn't write it for himself. He's fine with running things the way he always did, more or less.

[Killer Cyborg]

You partially quoted

And if he doesnt see the issues his consumers have then he has no place running a businessç

Which is not the same as misquoting.

The full sentence

And if he doesnt see the issues his consumers have then he has no place running a businessç but i do think he is aware of the issues and hasnt gotten a answer for how to address them or even thinks they need addressing.

When you read just the first half of the sentence then it sounds like what you said, but that was only one of two points being made in that phrase. So i clearly exempt KS from the failure there, but you only pick and choose a portion of it.

I picked the part that I was responding to, and cut the rest.
I was assuming that you knew the rest anyway.

You debate each point for argueing the points sake only, but you don't argue it in regards to how it affects the context which is the only reason you argue said points. Over arching concepts and ideas are just that, made up of smaller points, but all of those points are in reference to how they affect the concept, otherwise there is no point in discussing them.

Again, if you feel that I've missed the overall point or concept, feel free to succinctly restate it at any time.
Not entirely sure why you didn't do that in this post, actually.

[Killer Cyborg]

wow ok this is going nuts. cleaning up the rules would help reduce squabbles as previously posted. i also believe it would help newbies pick up a book and get in with the rest of us much easier. this helps us the gamer with induction and getting our game on and the business gets more customers. that is a win-win.

Right.
But it would also create a bunch of squabbles; people don't like change, and Palladium's clarifications so far have often led only to more questions.

also why are there (human scale) rifles with more power than a rail gun or some other PA weapon? i would love to address issues like that. (it is not just rules it is stats too!)

Same here.

also why would i take magic OCC? tech can clobber it or outlast it plus it can reload. magic "reloads" too slowly. yes a magic character can pick up a gun but then it is not using magic anymore. i like that a magic OCC is not as limited as other systems. but it starts to not be so magical any more either. (please no can't have the cake and eat it too bits, you know what i mean)

I don't know what you mean.
Mages don't need to choose between magic and tech; they can (and DO) use both.
At low levels, that energy rifle is your best friend.
At high levels, you can have magic tools, minions and spells that are more than a match for their tech equivalent.

[Killer Cyborg]

On a side not Killer me and you both now Kev does not use the system as written, this is why he isn't seeing the problems. It's hard to see them when you are blind to them by choice.

Kevin doesn't use the system as written, as far as I can tell, because for the most part he's not writing it for HIM; he's writing it for customers and fans.

For example:
People complained that they died too easily when they got shot a lot, so he made the GI Joe rule..
For them.
He doesn't use it, because he didn't write it for himself. He's fine with running things the way he always did, more or less.

That is the point I am making Killer, He makes a rule but doesn't play test it.

That may be the point you are making, but it's not what I said.
"He doesn't use them" doesn't mean "he has never tried or tested them."

Side note I do like the G.I Joe rule, my players like it too because I pull no punches

Using the GI Joe rule IS pulling punches.

[Saitou Hajime]

wow ok this is going nuts. cleaning up the rules would help reduce squabbles as previously posted. i also believe it would help newbies pick up a book and get in with the rest of us much easier. this helps us the gamer with induction and getting our game on and the business gets more customers. that is a win-win.

also why are there (human scale) rifles with more power than a rail gun or some other PA weapon? i would love to address issues like that. (it is not just rules it is stats too!)

also why would i take magic OCC? tech can clobber it or outlast it plus it can reload. magic "reloads" too slowly. yes a magic character can pick up a gun but then it is not using magic anymore. i like that a magic OCC is not as limited as other systems. but it starts to not be so magical any more either. (please no can't have the cake and eat it too bits, you know what i mean)

i am not a rule lawyer GM. i do not check peoples food rations or see if they walked too far. i understand that. I want fun. most of my players want fight and action. that now requires stats of weapons, armor, vehicle, spells, combat rules and the "physics" of game reality. this the only place my players have issues. the core of what they want to do! if it was ALL about story and rare combat and we hate weapon choice than we would play oWoD.

You take magic because magic does things that tech can't, Magic is a whole box of tools, Tech is more like a hammer and screw driver. RPG are not about just killing things, which is something that Palladium has always championed. it is a balance issue, Rifts is Adventure oWoD is DRAMA!

[Dunia]

wow ok this is going nuts. cleaning up the rules would help reduce squabbles as previously posted. i also believe it would help newbies pick up a book and get in with the rest of us much easier. this helps us the gamer with induction and getting our game on and the business gets more customers. that is a win-win.

also why are there (human scale) rifles with more power than a rail gun or some other PA weapon? i would love to address issues like that. (it is not just rules it is stats too!)

also why would i take magic OCC? tech can clobber it or outlast it plus it can reload. magic "reloads" too slowly. yes a magic character can pick up a gun but then it is not using magic anymore. i like that a magic OCC is not as limited as other systems. but it starts to not be so magical any more either. (please no can't have the cake and eat it too bits, you know what i mean)

i am not a rule lawyer GM. i do not check peoples food rations or see if they walked too far. i understand that. I want fun. most of my players want fight and action. that now requires stats of weapons, armor, vehicle, spells, combat rules and the "physics" of game reality. this the only place my players have issues. the core of what they want to do! if it was ALL about story and rare combat and we hate weapon choice than we would play oWoD.

You take magic because magic does things that tech can't, Magic is a whole box of tools, Tech is more like a hammer and screw driver. RPG are not about just killing things, which is something that Palladium has always championed. it is a balance issue, Rifts is Adventure oWoD is DRAMA!

Well, this is my second try to answer this post as it appears that my post was removed for some reason, I do not know why as no one has informed me with what I did wrong, so I will try to post a kinder and gentler version of what I tried to say.

To me Rifts seems all about combat, fighting and have cool armours, big guns, and spells that wipe out monsters in a heart beat. Almost everything is focused on combat. Dont read me out wrong, I love the way that Rifts is built up - in a way - i like the basic idea, but unlike many of you (at least from how I read what you say - but I may be wrong and if i am, I am sorry), I seem to prefer roleplaying other stuff than just merc missions, combat and blazing lasers. I want to see the whole survival in the abandoned wilderness and get the feelings of a post apocalyptic world, and not have cities, baronies kingdoms with Pre-rifts stuff everywhere).
So that is what I do.

But when you look at the books, you will find that the only thing of equuipment that is described in details with all important info is weapons and vehices. out of 40+ pages of equipment in R:UE only 6 of those pages are dedicated to non-military equipment and even on those 5 pages, alot is not described to give a GM/Player all info that you can find in most RPGs. For example, in GM guide: how much does a NGS-2 survival backpack weigh? What does it cost to live in a city like Lazlo. What is normal pay fr a person, to balance the pay for my PCs and where can I find basic info about animals that roam the land?

So, this RPG looks to me at least as if it all about the combat, fighting and killimg things.

[Bill]

I spent around a dozen years complaining with great vitriol about the rules for Rifts, and by extension all Palladium games. Lately though, I've come to realize that it works just fine. It provides a useable, if not perfect, framework for the telling of adventure stories and that's all a role-playing game should aspire to be.

The only complaint I have left is that the organization of the books and the information presented in them is abysmal. Hire an editor that can actually sort everything out and you'll make me a very happy man. In fact, hire me. I'll do it and make your entire customer base very happy.

[Ronin78]

wow ok this is going nuts. cleaning up the rules would help reduce squabbles as previously posted. i also believe it would help newbies pick up a book and get in with the rest of us much easier. this helps us the gamer with induction and getting our game on and the business gets more customers. that is a win-win.

also why are there (human scale) rifles with more power than a rail gun or some other PA weapon? i would love to address issues like that. (it is not just rules it is stats too!)

also why would i take magic OCC? tech can clobber it or outlast it plus it can reload. magic "reloads" too slowly. yes a magic character can pick up a gun but then it is not using magic anymore. i like that a magic OCC is not as limited as other systems. but it starts to not be so magical any more either. (please no can't have the cake and eat it too bits, you know what i mean)

i am not a rule lawyer GM. i do not check peoples food rations or see if they walked too far. i understand that. I want fun. most of my players want fight and action. that now requires stats of weapons, armor, vehicle, spells, combat rules and the "physics" of game reality. this the only place my players have issues. the core of what they want to do! if it was ALL about story and rare combat and we hate weapon choice than we would play oWoD.

You take magic because magic does things that tech can't, Magic is a whole box of tools, Tech is more like a hammer and screw driver. RPG are not about just killing things, which is something that Palladium has always championed. it is a balance issue, Rifts is Adventure oWoD is DRAMA!

Well, this is my second try to answer this post as it appears that my post was removed for some reason, I do not know why as no one has informed me with what I did wrong, so I will try to post a kinder and gentler version of what I tried to say.

To me Rifts seems all about combat, fighting and have cool armours, big guns, and spells that wipe out monsters in a heart beat. Almost everything is focused on combat. Dont read me out wrong, I love the way that Rifts is built up - in a way - i like the basic idea, but unlike many of you (at least from how I read what you say - but I may be wrong and if i am, I am sorry), I seem to prefer roleplaying other stuff than just merc missions, combat and blazing lasers. I want to see the whole survival in the abandoned wilderness and get the feelings of a post apocalyptic world, and not have cities, baronies kingdoms with Pre-rifts stuff everywhere).
So that is what I do.

But when you look at the books, you will find that the only thing of equuipment that is described in details with all important info is weapons and vehices. out of 40+ pages of equipment in R:UE only 6 of those pages are dedicated to non-military equipment and even on those 5 pages, alot is not described to give a GM/Player all info that you can find in most RPGs. For example, in GM guide: how much does a NGS-2 survival backpack weigh? What does it cost to live in a city like Lazlo. What is normal pay fr a person, to balance the pay for my PCs and where can I find basic info about animals that roam the land?

So, this RPG looks to me at least as if it all about the combat, fighting and killimg things.

Could that be because the bulk of game books are rules? We need rules for combat. I don't need rules telling me how to roleplay my character. Although there is a whole section on character background, and "how to roleplay". So I need weapon stats in a book. I dont need more "how to roleplay sections". Technically what is referred to as "fluff" is your guide to roleplaying. I think most palladium games are full of fluff.

After all isn't that all you need. This is who you are. And this is who they are. Now interact. I don't need the game to tell me how I should feel about group X or group Y. That is for me to decide.

[Killer Cyborg]

So, this RPG looks to me at least as if it all about the combat, fighting and killimg things.

Could that be because the bulk of game books are rules? We need rules for combat. I don't need rules telling me how to roleplay my character.

Look at the amount of space spent on rules for combat.
Then look at the amount of space spent describing using Skills.

Look at the amount of space spent on combat spells.
Then look at the amount of space spend on non-combat spells.

Look at the amount of space spend on armor and weapons.
Then look at the amount of space spent on non-combat gear.

You don't need rules for how to roleplay your character, but there's more to life than just killing things.
In fact, even for soldiers, most of life doesn't involve combat.

You can tell a lot about the intent of a game by how much focus they allot on different aspects of the game.
If a game spends most of its time and space describing how to kill stuff, and precious little space on other things, then the game is obviously designed to focus on combat.

For every 100 or so badass guns we get in Rifts, we get maybe 1 device like the Sonic Flea Collar.
The Sonic Flea Collar would be just as important as a gun in a lot of places in the setting of Rifts Earth, but the game doesn't focus on that because the game is designed around combat.
Where are the water purifiers? Where are the different types of rations?
Where are the rest of the tools of survival beyond what you need to kill stuff?

Scenario:
A lone character is stranded in hostile wilderness, and he spends 24 hours trying to survive.
For 1 minute of this day, he becomes involved in combat with a hostile predator.
For 23 hours and 59 minutes of this day, he tries to use his Wilderness Survival skill to endure the hardships and solve the puzzles of living in the wild.

The rules for that one minute take up many pages of book space, and have dozens of rules.
The rules for the other 23 hours and 59 minutes of his day are "roll a skill check."

[Nightmask]

Well, this is my second try to answer this post as it appears that my post was removed for some reason, I do not know why as no one has informed me with what I did wrong, so I will try to post a kinder and gentler version of what I tried to say.

It wasn't removed, when they rebooted the forums they apparently hadn't backed things up so everything it looks like for the last few days went missing. Or just the problems prevented saving everything just prior to the reboot.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you wanted everything listed out specifically like rations, different water purifiers, etc etc, it would take up a lot of space.

Look at the RGMG and let me know how much space is taken up with armor and weapons.

Hell, how much combined book space is taken up solely with MD laser pistols that inflict 1d6 MD, or other weapons that are essentially the same only with different labels?

Personally I don't think the type of ration being used makes for a fun time roleplaying. "Hey look at me Brutus I have the special ration with a brownie in it... sweet right...."

Never read Lord of the Rings?
What about Dan Simmons' The Terror?

Or how about just looking at the world of Rifts and using your imagination?
Off the top of my head, here are some situations that could be interesting:

1. The party steals the Brodkil equivalent of C-Rations. How long do they eat the stuff before they realize that meat might have once walked on 2 legs?

2. Rations can be a useful trade good; the higher quality the rations, the better the price. That extra brownie might, in the right situation, make the difference between Deal and No Deal.

3. A party of adventurers sit down for dinner. The Headhunter pulls out his blackmarket CS rations. The Vagabond pulls out his supply of canned goods. The Full Conversion Borg pulls out some jars of baby food. The Wilderness Scout shows up with freshly killed game, or pulls out homemade smoked meat and dried fruits and berries.
The mage pulls out his TW Feast-In-A-Can, pops the top, and has a 5-course dinner as good as you get in any restaurant.
Everybody turns to him and says, "Uh... you got any more of that?"
Everybody except the Mind Melter; he's taking a nap, plucking food out of his dreams that doesn't even exist in the real world.

4. After trudging through miles of swamp, the party finds a raised section of land that's high enough and dry enough to camp. They pull out their food supplies, only to realize that the woven baskets their meals were packed in weren't quite waterproof, and now their food is soaked with swamp water.

5. Johnny the Merc has been arrested and tossed in jail. Instead of the standard slop for prisoners, Johnny begs the Sheriff to give him one of his Ironheart ration packs from his confiscated equipment. The sheriff gives in.
An hour later, Johnny is resting with a full belly, pretending to nap until the sheriff leaves and Johnny can pull out the Ironheart Meal Utensil he swiped from the ration pack, and use it to start picking at the loose mortar he noticed in the rear wall of the cell.

6. Johnny the Juicer has been arrested and tossed in jail. Instead of the standard slop for prisoners, Johnny begs the Sheriff to give him one of his Hungry Juicer Meal Packs from his confiscated equipment. The sheriff laughs at Johnny, and tosses some slop on the floor of the cell, then sits at his desk in full view of Johnny, and eats Johnny's food.
An hour later, the Sheriff is helplessly wretching in the bathroom because his system can't handle the extra, juicer-oriented supplements that the meal has been saturated with, and Johnny is using the blanket from his cot to try to lasso the keys the sheriff left on the desk.

7. Billy the Burster prefers his rations in metal cans instead of plastic, leather, or other packaging, because he can heat up his meals himself without setting the package on fire.

8. Rations produced by dwarven communities come in a can, and consist entirely of a special kind of beer that provides you with a hearty meal's worth of nutrition.
Also, Save vs. Nonlethal poison, or you're going to be schnockered for 1d4 hours.

9. The city of Lazlo has been having some trouble with their militia's rations ever since they hired some faerie folk to work in the packaging facilities. Now there is a 5% chance that the portion of Coffee, Mixed Nuts, Turkey, or Green Beans that comes in a package of rations is the faerie food equivalent.

10. In areas with high psi-stalker populations, less-than-moral merchants sell captured faerie folk or other portable psychic/magic creatures as portable meals.

And if I remember correclty a lot of the "small" items can be found in the Hereo's Unlimited book I think.

You can find armor and weapons there too, yet somehow new stuff keeps being printed and published.
Perhaps HU didn't cover all the angles.

[Dunia]

If you wanted everything listed out specifically like rations, different water purifiers, etc etc, it would take up a lot of space. Personally I don't think the type of ration being used makes for a fun time roleplaying. "Hey look at me Brutus I have the special ration with a brownie in it... sweet right...."

And if I remember correclty a lot of the "small" items can be found in the Hereo's Unlimited book I think.

This is exactly what is wrong with Palladium Books and KS thought of making a good game. For those who buy all books that Palladium Books publish, you do not care, but I started playing Rifts beacuse I wanted a Post Apocalypse RPG, if I had known that Palladium Books products were like this, I would never had started to buy stuff.

This is the only game system I know that forces you either buy other games (Palladium Fantasy, Robotech, After The Bomb etc) in order to get basic information that other Gaming Companies publish in each of their books to help the Consumer. For example, in every (old) White Wolf game, you had stats on werewolves, mages, vampires and ghosts. They did not try to make you buy the other line of RPGs from their company, all you needed was one set. Palladium Books d o the opposite.

Add to that all the personal confessions and fluff-speeches that KS writes in R:UE instead of adding the elemental spells for the Elemental Fusionist or the Dead Boy Armor from PA 109, that they have pictures of in R:UE. I want a book with all info needed to play the game when I buy a main book. The lists in the end of RUE of all world books and such are fantastic, I love them, but that is enough.

The best thing is in SB1 R&R where they have a heading about Simvan Monster Raiders and all that is said about them is: Described in Rifts WB 30: D-Bees of North America as well as Rfts WB 14 The New West. It actually makes me feel cheated to by the game company. Why even have that text in the book.

But what I want is a good equipment list of things, what they do, what they cost, their weights and so on. I do not need 14 types of food, but I would like to know how much stuff I can carry and other things. I understand you are more interested in how many guns you cvan have and how much ammo. But not all poeple play it your way, just as all people do not play my way.

But we should be allowed to at least be given a full eq list and not just 6 pages of non-combat eq out of 30+ pages. Why not remove alot of the pictures of weapons and add some more info of non-combat eq?

[Killer Cyborg]

KC your examples are all built into the role-playing designed by your GM, I wouldn't think you'd need a list of costs for those items, why not just use common sense?

Why not use common sense for EVERYTHING?
Then we wouldn't need equipment lists at all.

And I didn't write anything about needing al the armor and all the weapons in all the books, I actually never even mentioned it.

The conversation was about the huge difference of time, energy, and space spend on armor and weapons versus the amount spent on non-combat gear.
If you're not talking about that, then you're not in the conversation.

As for the need to purchase differnt books. Ever play D&D? You can't even have a single adventure unless you buy 5 different books.

I've played D&D, every edition so far.
I've never seen that problem.

[Killer Cyborg]

As for the need to purchase differnt books. Ever play D&D? You can't even have a single adventure unless you buy 5 different books.

I've played D&D, every edition so far.
I've never seen that problem.

5 could be an exaggeration but its no worse than Rifts or any Palladium game is.

It doesn't matter I'm obviously in the minority so whateva, I love Rifts and Palladium games in general can't complain at all.

Maybe I'll debate more topics once I have a dislike for Palladium and what they do.

You need a Players' Handbook and a Dungeon Masters' Guide.
What else?

Keep in mind that I said I played D&D of all versions. I've only really RUN for Basic, 1st Edition, and 2nd Edition.

[Killer Cyborg]

Technically all you HAVE to have to play rifts is the RUE.

Technically, sure.

But the CS gear in the main book is "Circa 100 to 104 PA," when the setting for RUE is 109 PA. So if you want to include any CS in your games, as PCs or enemies, you have to come up with a reason why they're using substandard equipment.
And if you want to have any monsters or non-human races pop up in your games, you're stuck with only Dog Boys and Dragons.
And there aren't any Cybernetics, only bionics, even though City Rats start with 1d4+2 basic cybernetic implants.
And I'm pretty sure I'm missing some other stuff as well, or rather RUE is.

[Bill]

But the CS gear in the main book is "Circa 100 to 104 PA," when the setting for RUE is 109 PA. So if you want to include any CS in your games, as PCs or enemies, you have to come up with a reason why they're using substandard equipment.
And if you want to have any monsters or non-human races pop up in your games, you're stuck with only Dog Boys and Dragons.

Or you could set the game in 104PA and not worry about it.

As for nonhumans and monsters, it's just a matter of description in most cases. Get a picture of a monster that you like off DeviantArt or ConceptArt Forums, assign it some MDC, give it some powers out of the spells or psionics section, give it six attacks and a flat +5 to every roll, then decide why it's on a rampage and let the players kill it. If they take it down too easily, give it higher bonuses and more MDC or throw two of them at the group next time. Easy peasy. I agree that it would have been nice for even the random demon from a rift table to have been included, but monsters are really the easiest part of the game. And technically psi-stalkers aren't exactly human either.

[Dunia]

R;UE and even the original main book are missing things that should have been in them, Stats for humans and D-bee's, there is no rule on how to make a D-bee, basic monsters that were in RMB are missing in R:UE. This is just a few things that should be in the book to make it whole, the Players handbooks have races monsters and Game/dungeon master tips. R;UE is missing these which makes one have to go out and buy other books so they can add in other races, and monsters.

Well, that is teh buisness idea of PB. Quite crafty I say. To Force cunsumers to pay thousands of dollars to have all what is needed.

[Bill]

Getting a picture off DA is not the same as having a monster in a book to play with nor is it a solution. Not having them re included in R;UE was a big mistake. Making up a monster isn't the same as having a few in a book for you to use or rules on how to make up your own. Next Psi-stalkers are Mutant humans so Technically they are human and they are not D-bee's which are mentioned through out the book, this is a major book layout flaw.
Timeline is clearly set in R;UE as 109 P.A, so setting your game in circa 104 PA doesn't make sense in the least, this is another layout flaw of the book.

You're right, it's not the same. It's better! Not only am I not paying for a book, I'm not recycling critters that the players have seen before! And by definition, a solution is something that redresses a problem. Therefor, if the problem is that the book doesn't include monsters, making them up most certainly is a solution. It may not be one you desire or even like, but it is one.

As for the timeline being set in 109, you got me there. That doesn't mean you have to run the game set in 109 though. Think outside the box, man. Additionally, KC's complaint was that the stats are for old gear. And to be honest, I don't see the problem with using the old stats for the new pictures. It's all fictional nonsense anyway and if the players are having fun, where's the harm?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not really defending the quality of the book. It's poorly organized, badly written in places, and is about as "ultimate" as a Pinto. I'm just saying that you can make it work fine if you don't get too hung up on the flaws and try to have some fun. Isn't this thread supposed to be about the system anyway?

[Sureshot]

As for the need to purchase differnt books. Ever play D&D? You can't even have a single adventure unless you buy 5 different books.

Not sure which version of D&D your using yet in my experience all one needs is the PHB, DMG and Monster Manual. What are the other two books.

[Bill]

Honestly you don't even need DMG or MM just PHB which has notes on monsters and DMing (of course I don't have a copy of 4th ed but my 3rd ed has them.)

4e is really compartmentalized and at bare minimum you'll need three books. So, if it's a published adventure, you're at four already and it's really common for even WotC to reference material from another book rather than reprint it. You can almost totally count on needing at least one more.

However, this is a Rifts thread and not a D&D one.

[Ronin78]

One thing I find funny in every one of these kind of discussions is that every one thinks their own idea of "fixes" would make the game perfect. Out of thousands of fans you have thousands of opinions.

What if some changes were done. And a lot of fans didnt feel it was enough. Or that the wrong things got changed. Then there will be a post just like this again by every one else with an opinion.

Change it totally and you get rifts edition wars. Why should D&D players have all the fun with edition wars. Shadowrun and world of darkness get to have that fun now too.

As a matter of a fact I'll bet shadowrun, WOD, and even Mutants and masterminds get to move on in their new edition leaving a lot of their old fans behind that choose not to go to the new edition and just play with the older edition books. Why alienate any one like that.

I am the proud owner of all the 1st through 3rd edition of shadowrun, I didnt go in for 4th. I own a book shelf full of gurps 3rd, 2nd and 1st. I didnt go in for its 4th either. I was just getting into mutants anf masterminds. When the new edition was announced I stopped collecting.

Gamers always want the new shinny. Its kinda tough finding players for dead games.

Why not just take a system and house rule to taste rather than assume because you are a fan a game company owes it to you to flavor it to your tastes.

[FuduVudu]

Rifts Source book 6: Rifts Official Game Master Guide 400 blank pages

[Ronin78]

Maybe you should go into all things palladium and read what many people are saying, it's not one player saying do this it will fix something it is a lot of customers saying fix these things and expand on those. When I have to house rule just to make something work because the mechanics of the game don't allow it to work, that is an issue. There are more then enough examples on these boards of broken/unbalanced rules or whatever word you want to use.

And I bet every person has a different Idea on how to fix it too. And If you "fix" it I bet you would have just as many people tell you how broken your new edition is and how you stole thier childhood with your new game that is too different to be called rifts any more.

Yeah im pretty jaded from the edition wars lol

[Nether]

Maybe you should go into all things palladium and read what many people are saying, it's not one player saying do this it will fix something it is a lot of customers saying fix these things and expand on those. When I have to house rule just to make something work because the mechanics of the game don't allow it to work, that is an issue. There are more then enough examples on these boards of broken/unbalanced rules or whatever word you want to use.

And I bet every person has a different Idea on how to fix it too. And If you "fix" it I bet you would have just as many people tell you how broken your new edition is and how you stole thier childhood with your new game that is too different to be called rifts any more.

Yeah im pretty jaded from the edition wars lol

Your making it sound far more chaotic than it is. I agree with ninjabunny that many people have mentioned issues with the game system and offered many fixes. It is like saying that sinse there is 100 milion voters, then that must mean there is 100 milion different votes, and everyone thinks they know who would be the best choice for president making it 100 milion possible candidates. It's not really that tough or complicated. But when every single game group has to have house rules in order to play the game, then that definately shows a major defect with the model. PB should be able to identify this problem and then decide on what the best fix is. The fan base here has provided more than enough house rules to make sure they are offered many many options to how to proceed.

Generally new editions have improved a game systems.
Not always as is the case for dnd 4e which is a huge step backwards, but in general i have felt the progress moving forward upto 3.5 was good progress. I feel this way about most game systems that have improved with newer editions.

[Saitou Hajime]

Revised Vampire, was rule wise such a set of twicks that it should have just been and FAQ Like document, of course they also advance the Meta-plot and spelt the end of the game.

I personally thing Fourth D&D is so different from anything before it to be in effect a new game totally. It is a mutation, it might be a step back but it is so differnet, I am not sureing it is comparable.

Second edition Legend of the Five Rings RPG was a step back everywhere save magic, third would bring it back to a cleaner third. I am not sure what fourth is like.

[Killer Cyborg]

But the CS gear in the main book is "Circa 100 to 104 PA," when the setting for RUE is 109 PA. So if you want to include any CS in your games, as PCs or enemies, you have to come up with a reason why they're using substandard equipment.
And if you want to have any monsters or non-human races pop up in your games, you're stuck with only Dog Boys and Dragons.

Or you could set the game in 104PA and not worry about it.

Sure, you could.
But the setting information in the book is for 109 PA; you'd have to guess what was going on back in 104.
You COULD do it, but isn't it odd that you'd have to?

As for nonhumans and monsters, it's just a matter of description in most cases. Get a picture of a monster that you like off DeviantArt or ConceptArt Forums, assign it some MDC, give it some powers out of the spells or psionics section, give it six attacks and a flat +5 to every roll, then decide why it's on a rampage and let the players kill it. If they take it down too easily, give it higher bonuses and more MDC or throw two of them at the group next time. Easy peasy. I agree that it would have been nice for even the random demon from a rift table to have been included, but monsters are really the easiest part of the game. And technically psi-stalkers aren't exactly human either.

You could make up monsters of your own.
You could make up an entire game of your own.
But if so, why buy Rifts?

Psi-Stalkers are human mutants, last I heard.

[Bill]

You could make up monsters of your own.
You could make up an entire game of your own.
But if so, why buy Rifts?

I like making lemonade. I could ask you the same question. If you're so dissatisfied with the product, why continue to support it?

[Killer Cyborg]

You could make up monsters of your own.
You could make up an entire game of your own.
But if so, why buy Rifts?

I like making lemonade. I could ask you the same question. If you're so dissatisfied with the product, why continue to support it?

My point isn't that people shouldn't buy RUE; it's that Palladium should give people more reason to buy Rifts if they want to increase business.
RUE is advertised as "A complete role-playing game of science fiction and adventure."
Palladium should either advertise it as "An important part of THIS complete RPG!", OR they should live up to their advertisement and have the game be fully playable without the customers having to make up monsters, cybernetics, current CS gear, and all the other stuff that is lacking.

Because it's kind of on-topic, I'll repost here something that I said on another site:

Here's the thing. If I have a problem with a product that I buy, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a big deal. Lots of products are flawed; you just work around them. Hell, MOST products are flawed in one way or another.
But if I buy a product that has a flaw, and somebody tries to tell me that the flaw just isn't there, that I'm wrong about the flaw, especially when it's something clearly demonstrable, then it becomes a big deal.
Because while I don't necessarily care too much about every flaw in a product, I do care about being called a liar or an idiot.
So while I won't necessarily spend a lot of time urinating and moaning about problems in a product, I'll spend a hell of a lot of time and effort demonstrating that a problem exists, IF I run into somebody who wants to argue the point.

Moral of the story: Denying that there's a problem when there clearly is, only brings more attention to the issue, and causes more people to talk about the problem.

[Bill]

Because while I don't necessarily care too much about every flaw in a product, I do care about being called a liar or an idiot.

Granted, I haven't waded through the whole thread or tried to review your posting history, but I haven't seen anybody call you either. I think you're overstating the issue and perhaps pursuing your defense a little too aggressively, but that doesn't make you a liar or an idiot.

[Nether]

Revised Vampire, was rule wise such a set of twicks that it should have just been and FAQ Like document, of course they also advance the Meta-plot and spelt the end of the game.

I personally thing Fourth D&D is so different from anything before it to be in effect a new game totally. It is a mutation, it might be a step back but it is so differnet, I am not sureing it is comparable.

Second edition Legend of the Five Rings RPG was a step back everywhere save magic, third would bring it back to a cleaner third. I am not sure what fourth is like.

Well 4e actually goes right back to square one with dnd in that it's first inception of the game was actually a tactical wargame and not a rpg. But i agree with you that it is pretty alien compared to what most people know about it.

I think the case for successfully upgrading any game system to a newer edition is not getting to drastic in changing the flavor of it's mechanics. In the case of thac0 it was a definate step up to get rid of it, but any game that has mechanics that are just more trouble than needed should be chucked and something smoother put in.

[Killer Cyborg]

Because while I don't necessarily care too much about every flaw in a product, I do care about being called a liar or an idiot.

Granted, I haven't waded through the whole thread or tried to review your posting history, but I haven't seen anybody call you either.

When I point out a demonstrable fact, and people tell me that I'm wrong, the indication is that I'm speaking falsely either through deliberation or through ignorance.
We could argue about whether the semantics of the word "idiot" are entirely appropriate to describe that, but do we really want to bother?

I think you're overstating the issue and perhaps pursuing your defense a little too aggressively, but that doesn't make you a liar or an idiot.

What part do you think is overstated?

[Supergyro]

There are enough situations in the Palladium system that are either underdeveloped or completely unaddressed that it becomes a problem. My favorite example is "Burster #1 wants to set something on fire while Burster #2 wants to stop Burster #1". This is a very possible situation, but the Palladium system has no way to handle it and very few good guidelines on how to invent a way.

When Palladium first came out, this was a problem in all RPG's, and Palladium was the best on the market. Palladium had compelling worlds and a compelling system.

While the worlds have remained compelling, the development of other RPG systems has left the Palladium system in the dust. The flaws become more pronounced when the competitors no longer have them.

There are also things that Rifts does poorly for itself. A system reboot would allow a covering of the ever more transparent deficiencies in the systems and a refocus to allow the characters to be able to do what they're supposed to do.

[Colt47]

You know, other than mechanics another small detail that could use revising is how they label the armor and robot suits. It's probably better to go with a system that labels them more along the lines of Non-Environmental, EBA, battle frame, light robot, and heavy robot, than the current Non-environmental, EBA, Power Armor, Robot Vehicle. I think a lot of people already pointed this out on the boards that the power armor category has gotten and continues to be hazy thanks to all the different PA's and bots currently present in the books, and even the books list certain power armor as being small robots.

[Colt47]

I will simply post here that I am entirely opposed to a new version of Rifts if it makes all of my World Books, Conversion Books, Adventure Guides, and others obsolete. One of my favorite things about Palladium is that they have never required you to buy a whole brank-spanking new shelf of books just to play a new edition of their games. As long as there is backwards-compatibility, I don't care whether Rifts gets a new edition, but I think the system plays just fine as it is.

The old books aren't going to just go up in smoke because a new edition is rolling out and we aren't bound to some crazy official tier tournament playing scheme that Dungeons and Dragons has so ceremoniously bound itself to via it's official programs. If KS and company decide on bringing out a new edition of their game books, I say let them do it with our blessing as fans and give it a good run.

[Killer Cyborg]

One of my favorite things about Palladium is that they have never required you to buy a whole brank-spanking new shelf of books just to play a new edition of their games.

No, but they did require you to buy every book they publish if you want to know what all the rules are.
I don't think that's better.

[Nether]

I will simply post here that I am entirely opposed to a new version of Rifts if it makes all of my World Books, Conversion Books, Adventure Guides, and others obsolete. One of my favorite things about Palladium is that they have never required you to buy a whole brank-spanking new shelf of books just to play a new edition of their games. As long as there is backwards-compatibility, I don't care whether Rifts gets a new edition, but I think the system plays just fine as it is.

What do you think is already happening with the revised books?

In order to have up to date books and all the adjusted info you have to buy the revised books as well. Well instead of getting a fully revised for system 2.0 which uses a udated system to begin with, instead you get to buy revised books that only have a handful of pages that are added or different and with a bit more content. So now you can havea shelf full of say 30-40 rifts books, and eventually you can add a shelf to have another 30-40 rifts books that are the revised versions.

You might be against PB giving you a 2nd edition because it might invalidate your stash of books, but really how it hurts a company to not reinvent some of thier material and upgrade it so that they can keep on selling product to stay in business.

I think the company is well within it's right and has given it's fans a long run on the current system, but now they need to step out of the past and into the now with newer books, products and a system 2.0. Many of us want it, and it will make us happy while making PB some much needed profits not to mention a breath of fresh air that game stores would be more likely to pick up a new edition vs dead old one.