Survival Challenge

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, here's the scenario:
You're a Rifts main-book (not RUE) Vagabond, stuck on an island in a "The Most Dangerous Game" situation. You're being hunted by a group of three Blind Warrior Women with standard gear.
You're unarmored, and armed only with a bolt-action rifle (30 loose rounds in a pouch), a .45 automatic (3 magazines), and a Rambo-style survival knife. Other than that, you only have the clothes on your back.
You get to pick your own skills.
Attributes are all average (9-11).
You are familiar with the capabilities of Blind Warrior Women and their equipment.
They have 24 hours to track you down and kill you.

How do you win?


(You might want to pull out your books for this one)

[FuduVudu]

Okay, here's the scenario:
You're a Rifts main-book (not RUE) Vagabond, stuck on an island in a "The Most Dangerous Game" situation. You're being hunted by a group of three Blind Warrior Women with standard gear.
You're unarmored, and armed only with a bolt-action rifle (30 loose rounds in a pouch), a .45 automatic (3 magazines), and a Rambo-style survival knife. Other than that, you only have the clothes on your back.
You get to pick your own skills.
Attributes are all average (9-11).
You are familiar with the capabilities of Blind Warrior Women and their equipment.
They have 24 hours to track you down and kill you.

How do you win?


(You might want to pull out your books for this one)

Need more info.
1. How big is the island
2. How much and in what form is fresh water available
3. What is native to the island
4. Any ley lines or other magical natural phenomena
5. Did I roll to be a minor or major psi? If so what powers do I have.
6. Do the warrior women have a camp and if so do they have a latrine?

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, here's the scenario:
You're a Rifts main-book (not RUE) Vagabond, stuck on an island in a "The Most Dangerous Game" situation. You're being hunted by a group of three Blind Warrior Women with standard gear.
You're unarmored, and armed only with a bolt-action rifle (30 loose rounds in a pouch), a .45 automatic (3 magazines), and a Rambo-style survival knife. Other than that, you only have the clothes on your back.
You get to pick your own skills.
Attributes are all average (9-11).
You are familiar with the capabilities of Blind Warrior Women and their equipment.
They have 24 hours to track you down and kill you.

How do you win?


(You might want to pull out your books for this one)

Need more info.
1. How big is the island
2. How much and in what form is fresh water available
3. What is native to the island
4. Any ley lines or other magical natural phenomena
5. Did I roll to be a minor or major psi? If so what powers do I have.
6. Do the warrior women have a camp and if so do they have a latrine?

1. Small enough that they have a good chance of finding you, but big enough that you have some chance of evading them.
2. Let's say one pond on the higher part of the island, with three streams leading away from it, flowing downhill to the sea.
3. Average jungle island stuff.
4. Nope.
5. Nope.
6. Nope. They stay on the move, for the most part.

[FuduVudu]

Some other questions.
1.Any Storms visible looming in the distance.
2. Volcanic Jungle island or normal Jungle Island?
3. Being Rifts and all I have to ask. Has this island at one point and time been some sort of private resort or personal island getaway of the super rich golden agers, and or island where they where working on crazy super science experiment #56.

[Jorel]

Swim.

[dragonfett]

What level are we, and are we allowed to use skill specialization rules from the Rifter?

Edit: Can we do a called shot on an area of their body that their armor does not cover (like, say the head)?

[Incriptus]

With violence towards the GM who set up that senario?

[Killer Cyborg]

What level are we,

First.

and are we allowed to use skill specialization rules from the Rifter?

Nah.

Edit: Can we do a called shot on an area of their body that their armor does not cover (like, say the head)?

Yes.

[dragonfett]

The skills;

Speak Dragonese (OCC skill choice)
Radio: Basic
First Aid
Climb
Swim
Pilot Hovercraft
Prowl
HtH Expert (assuming two skill selections)

WP Rifle
WP Pistol
ID Plant/Fruit
Land Navigation
Trap Construction (from CWC)

The Strategy:
BIG EDIT- I was remembering six warrior women, not three, so my scenario changes a bit, but not too much.

As I said in the original post (before the edit), the big problem is the Armor of Ithan Amulets coupled with Sixth Sense. However, this can be overcome, and much easier with only three (rather than six) BWW and is very doable in 24 hours.

First thing is to build some traps. Two or three that injure should be good enough. They will be able to track you and they will track you right into one of these traps. Even if they do put up their AoI field, that's one use out of three gone for the day and you are a step closer to your goal. If they don't, well, one of them is going to be injured and either have to be left behind (splitting them up) or drug with them (slowing the party down).

The second method is sniping. A single shot from a concealed position will set off their Sixth Sense and prompt them to activate their AoI. That's another use gone. Combine traps and shots to make them waste all three uses and they are now vulnerable to be picked off via 30-06 to the face/neck.

An alternative kill method is assuming one of these streams is fast moving. Set a trap that drags one of them underwater to drown. AoI will not protect against drowning. A variant of this is making a small avalanche or tree fall on one. Even if they are able to get out without blowing themselves to pieces, they've wasted an AoI use and it takes time...time in which they aren't hunting you.

They key is to remain hidden and on the offensive and to remain hidden even when you strike. If you become exposed or if you allow yourself to be put on the defensive, you're screwed.

That is along the lines of what I was going to suggest.

[dragonfett]

Sixth Sense won't tell them of the nature of the danger, just that they or someone near them is in immediate danger. As such, they can start looking for traps, activating magic talismans, and all that, but there is still the fact that they may fall for the trap.

[dragonfett]

Sixth Sense won't tell them of the nature of the danger, just that they or someone near them is in immediate danger. As such, they can start looking for traps, activating magic talismans, and all that, but there is still the fact that they may fall for the trap.

So experienced warriors tromping through the jungle would not stop and look around ? they must not be the best and brightest then. Guess whats why they got assigned the task of chasing down a puny, mundane human. So they triggered a trap. At that point they will spend an action turning on there armor of ithan or dodging the trap. Thats +6 init, +2 to parry, and plus three to dodge. Then there are there PP bonus and the +2 to parry and dodge, plus 2 on initiative, tom roll ware applicable. So at the moment the trap is triggered they are already at +8 on initiative and +5 to parry or dodge. Would they really need to waist that talisman ? All this assumeing the BWW's are also level one with average attributes.

I never said that they would fall for the trap, only that they may. Unlikely, yes, but not impossible. Not to mention if the Vagabond has been taking pot shots at them from outside of their special radar sensory range of 1200 (the average range of rifles is 1300', with precision bolt-action rifles with a range of 1800'), they can activate their talisman believing it to be the Vagabond taking another pot shot at them only to fall for the trap.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sixth Sense won't tell them of the nature of the danger, just that they or someone near them is in immediate danger. As such, they can start looking for traps, activating magic talismans, and all that, but there is still the fact that they may fall for the trap.

So experienced warriors tromping through the jungle would not stop and look around ?

Sure they would.
They'd try to dodge too, but that's no reason not to shoot at them.
Sometimes you get lucky.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Just a few expanded notes on the situation.

1: The BWW have 24 hours to hunt you down. So sounds like they have a time limit. Opinion: Surviving 24 hours is probably a better strategy than trying to kill them (which I view as unlikely).

2: In addition to their AoI talisman, the suits and helmet of BWW are also M.D.C. Any hope of hurting them will involve the lower face (towards cheek and mouth), upper arms and hands (lower arms will have their wrist blaster which is probably M.D.C.), and their upper legs/thighs (because they have boots, which isn't explicitly stated as being M.D.C. only makes sense). Their AoI is just ADDED protection (and full body).

3: BWW have a minimum (the very lowest a BWW can have): PP 23 (+4 strike/parry/dodge), PS 28, Spd 29 (up to 56). Direct combat (with even one of them) is likely suicide. Without slowing them down first, outrunning them isn't even an option. If they discover your location, they can close 1800 feet (max range for the rifle) in less than a minute! If their AoI is up, traps are going to slow them down (at best). They can also swim faster than you. Note: Remember, you stats start off average. Their minimum stats are taken from the BWW attributes plus physical skills. Their minimum parry/dodge is +8. Edit: Correction! Their minimum dodge is +9 (I forgot to inclue Athletics bonus). That's of course if they're only level 1 and lowest stats possible.

4: In addition to Radar, all BWW have enhanced smell and hearing too. They also have extraordinary physical endurance (so fatigue is not likely to play a major part for them).

5: All BWW have swimming, running, climbing, and wilderness survival standard (and they can do it better than you). Wilderness Survival doesn't mean that they'll know everything you're doing, just that they're not fools and know what they're doing. They do NOT have Detect Concealment & Traps standard, but they can select it as a secondary skill (so they may have it, just not a guarantee).

6: BWW do have wrist blasters and net guns (which means they have some range options). Wrist blasters can be up to 1200 feet (so if they have you within their radar, they can shoot you).

On the plus side, I will say that Rhomphaia did find the only reference (CWC) that lists Trap Construction as a Wilderness Skill. Every other PB reference (that I've found at least) has it listed as Military only. And the RMB version of Vagabonds couldn't take military skills.

I think trying to fight (even snipe) is a mistake. Too many things can go wrong such as them figuring out where the sound came from with their enhanced hearing, their radar being able to detect which angle the bullet came from (it can sense direction) even if not in time to dodge (and once they know your position they can outrun you), or a bunch of other things (just my opinion). Though if you are going to snipe, don't worry about LoS (which I remember seeing earlier), worry about being downwind because otherwise you risk them picking up on your scent as well.

My belief is that you should try to just survive the 24 hours. Traps are good for delaying them, especially if designed to injure their upper legs/thighs (hitting the head is probably too unreliable to hit the right spot, arms don't do much good, and everything else is protected). Even if they're looking for traps, it'll slow them down (at least some). They if you can't evade a bloodhound, you're not likely to evade the BWW.

Anyways, just some additional notes. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Killer Cyborg]

This would be fun to do with three to six PC's with one being the vagabond with the GM the ref. I thank you, I think I just got next Friday figured out !.

Awesome!
Let me know how it turns out.

[dragonfett]

True ! Heck, a decent shot from distance is the great equalizer i guess. One other thing, Is the Ithan spell or talisman effective against gun fire ?

Yes, it provides MDC protection, but it is on activation, lasts one hour (I think) and is limited to three activations per day. It is a handy tool, but one that can actually be exploited for the benefit of the vagabond in this case.

Actually, it only lasts 10 minutes, not 1 hour.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd like to state my appreciation for you guys not just throwing your hands up in the air and saying, "SDC vs. MDC!? There's no way to win!!"

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Just a few expanded notes on the situation.

1: The BWW have 24 hours to hunt you down. So sounds like they have a time limit. Opinion: Surviving 24 hours is probably a better strategy than trying to kill them (which I view as unlikely).

I was working from the standpoint of a number of assumptions, one of them being that given the stated size of the island, if you stay put in one spot, the BWW will find you. They are used to ferreting out hiding holes for slaves and whatnot. It is far better to keep moving.

Greetings and Salutations. I never said stand in one place. I said survive. If at some point you thought "survive" meant "stand in one place" then I apologize. I'm not sure how you'd get that, but that's not what was meant.

Also, as I said, in a situation like this, if you allow yourself to go on the defensive, you are dead meat. You must take the BWW out of their game, turn them into the hunted. Even if you don't kill any of them, striking at them continually either directly or through a handful of traps will do just that.

If you actually read my post, you'd know that I agreed that traps can be very good at this. Not sure where you thought I said traps were a bad idea. Traps are great for slowing them down, keeping them guessing, etc. If at some point you read my saying just surviving the 24 hours (and even mentioned traps later) was a better strategy than going for the kill meant traps were suddenly forbidden, I apologize of that very odd misconception. I assure you I didn't mean traps were somehow bad just because I think going for the skill is a bad idea. Note: Traps do not necessarily mean death (in fact, in this case, are likely not to meant that).

2: In addition to their AoI talisman, the suits and helmet of BWW are also M.D.C. Any hope of hurting them will involve the lower face (towards cheek and mouth), upper arms and hands (lower arms will have their wrist blaster which is probably M.D.C.), and their upper legs/thighs (because they have boots, which isn't explicitly stated as being M.D.C. only makes sense). Their AoI is just ADDED protection (and full body).

Yes, I did take this into account. You apparently missed the whole reference to "face/neck shot" in my original post.

Nope, didn't miss it at all. I'll start by saying: "A comment in this thread does not automatically make a comment directed towards you, Rhomphaia."

At this point, yes, I am addressing your points since you decided to address mine as a personal challenge to you. Setting aside in just about every picture of the BWW there neck has something on it as well as half their face covered, targeting the lower face can still work. But a first level Vagabond will run into a lot of problems with that.

1: Hitting those spots require a 12 or higher to hit. Adding penalties to that strike is a G.M. call, but suggested in multiple Palladium Books. Rifts GM Guide on page 32 mentions penalties for smaller targets, RWB5: Triax has penalties for exposed areas on plain clothes armor, R:UE page 361 etc. Still, that doesn't mean a failure.
2: Vagabonds can't take Sniper (can't take Espionage skills), and at best you have a +3 to strike for aimed at level 1. So you have a 55% chance to hit and a 45% chance to miss. The odds are worse if penalties are included. This doesn't mean it can't work, but you have about the same odd as flipping a coin for success. People's opinions on whether or not that's worth it will vary, but I usually don't like that low of odds if I have another choice. This is a personal preference.

I could go so far as to argue that by the rules a head shot doesn't do more damage so you'd still have to go through full SDC and HP, but I think we can all agree that's pointless (and needless rules lawyering). I think most people who actually participate in this challenge will accept neck/face shots as far more damaging (myself included).

4: In addition to Radar, all BWW have enhanced smell and hearing too. They also have extraordinary physical endurance (so fatigue is not likely to play a major part for them).

I really do not see your point here. Nothing I said is countered by this.

Well, I wasn't under the misguided belief that you were the only person in this thread. I provided information for everyone and anyone. If for some reason you feel that all posts in this thread center around your posts, then I apologize for that incorrect belief.

See my point for #4. This does not impact my strategy at all.

Same as above. I'm really not sure why you decided this had to be some personal attack against your strategy. Unless you feel when I said (later) that you found an exception of the skill restriction and that was a good thing? Though I'm not sure why saying you did something good translates into negatively targeting you. I'm more curious than anything because I find it strange.

6: BWW do have wrist blasters and net guns (which means they have some range options). Wrist blasters can be up to 1200 feet (so if they have you within their radar, they can shoot you).

Good luck using radar of any sort in a jungle at ground level.

Well, that would imply that the BWW is hampered by the jungle. Let's look at what penalties the BWW do have: Storms (of various types). Nope, I see nothing about a tree, a group of trees, or general congestion in the area blinding them. This is not technology, but a natural ability. Unless you can show me something in the book I missed, any additional penalties are house rules.

Note: Daredevil (comics) is a good example of someone who can do way more with Radar than technology probably would allow (of course, extent of abilities will vary depending on the writer at the time).

their radar being able to detect which angle the bullet came from (it can sense direction) even if not in time to dodge (and once they know your position they can outrun you),

Show me a radar or echolocation system that can track a thumbnail-sized metal object moving at 2,700 fps in a jungle and I will concede this point.

Show me a real life BWW. Oh wait ... they don't really exist, and we don't know the extent of their powers. Now, that doesn't mean that they can, guaranteed, track the bullet. What we know of their powers though, it's not out of the question. What we know is that they have radar, can sense speed and direction.

Though we do know real radar can track missiles (which can travel faster), so speed won't be the deciding factor here. So I guess the question is do you think the size is the deciding factor? If you took a bullet in your hand and threw it to a BWW a few feet away, would it just hit her and bounce off because she couldn't see it? Would she be able to detect a large bug flying around her? I would think yes, even if she didn't know what it was (though her other senses could probably clue her in).

Now does this mean it's guaranteed they'd pick up where the bullet came from? Nope. That would be up to the GM, and he might even include a penalty for them. But that's still a pretty big gamble in my opinion.

or a bunch of other things (just my opinion).

Care to list them?

First, I'm not a sniper. But, I will say I don't plan on everything going perfect. I usually try to factor in little things going wrong that I hadn't ever counted on. When there are things I can see easily going wrong, I tend to figure there are several more than I'm missing. For instance, I could be wrong but the reason a sniper moves after every shot is so he doesn't get discovered. Why would they move if ... well, they couldn't be discovered? And if I can be discovered, why am I counting on a BWW being incapable of discovering me (especially when they can close that distance in a minute or less, within firing range probably within 15 seconds)?

Though in addition deduction, in addition to the radar, in addition to the hearing (I know you dismissed this, but I generally try not to dismiss how superhuman powers that I don't have work with certainty), in addition to bad luck with the wind (which you didn't originally mention), in addition to the 50% chance of the shot not even hurting her, in addition to something like just bad luck such as something else tipping them off (not necessarily related to me, but in the area and just happens to catch their attention) while I'm entrenched and waiting for my shot (while I would prefer to set up more traps, get some distance, try to mislead them, etc.) ... well, I'm out for the moment. Though I'm fairly sure that there are plenty of things I'm not including.

Though if you are going to snipe, don't worry about LoS (which I remember seeing earlier), worry about being downwind because otherwise you risk them picking up on your scent as well.

You have a point about being downwind, but you do need to worry about LoS. Their radar and echolocation can track you if you are in plain view. However, laying down behind cover with just enough room to peek out of and well, there's a million such spots in the jungle. Combine that with the BWW's very simple inability to distinguish light and shadow (just shapes) and the jungle environment is your best friend and their worst enemy.

Well, I in general don't worry much about Line of Sight for people who can't see (especially when their sense don't work in a line, but could be 360 degrees since they can pick up the environment "around" them, not in front of). That's just me. Do I want to stay out of range of their radar? Sure. But if I'm 1200+ feet away, I can be standing up, sitting down, on my belly, on my head, waving hello, doing the cha-cha, and it's all the same since I'm out of their radar range (though they could potentially still hear or smell me depending on circumstances). Now if you mean Line of Sight as Range of their Radar, okay. I can agree with that.

For note: I'm not even trying to be overly technical. You'd be amazed at the things people don't realize, such as a Blind Warrior Woman are blind (don't have sight).


As for the rest, I'm not saying that anything was inherently wrong. I disagree with a sniper attack (unless you have no choice and are cornered and need to try something) though, and feel there are just too many risks involved with it. I still agree with traps and targeting the upper legs/thighs which gives you about a foot and a half room for error compared to the 4 inches or so you have exposed on their head. Larger marging of error, and if you take out the legs you inhibit their ability to pursue. Since this isn't lethal, it's not likely to trip sixth sense either. I just see too many advantages to going non-lethal and buying time instead of going for the kill where I increase my risks of something going wrong.

This is my take on it. Some agree, some don't. That's fine. I also believe in providing information for others to make their decisions. This is why I made a post discussing some of the facts for people to consider. Maybe someone else will come up with a plan that can blow all the ideas up to this point out of the water. That would be great! I'm all for new ideas, but to create a good plan it helps to know some of the limits first. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Prysus]

Did I somehow offend you by clarifying my post and the points within it? If I did, then I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. Drop the snarky attitude that is peppering the rest of your post, now.

Greetings and Salutations. Nope, not offended. But your post repsonding to mine showed confusion (you actually said you couldn't follow parts) because it didn't address your strategy specifically. You can go ahead and scroll up and reread that post. You dismissed several points as making no sense because you didn't talk about them previously.

One of the times you say it doesn't affect your strategy. That's fair. But saying "I really do not see your point. Nothing I said is countered by this" indicates you had to think the post revolved around you. So if you were confused by something that didn't involve you, then please explain how you weren't taking it as revolving around you? If you have some explanation I missed I'm open. I find it curious, odd, maybe a little amusing, but not really offended.

About the radar, you seem to take the stance that since we don't know that it isn't capable of doing certain things, then that must mean it can do those things. This is an incorrect attitude to have. All we have to work on is what the radar is listed as being capable of in the books, with radar capabilities in the real world to fill in the gaps.

This is actually incorrect. We have what the ability can do, what it can't do, AND we have a list of things that limit this ability. These are all listed in the book.

I think the flaw in logic is that even though the book tells us what it can do, can't do, and lists things that affect it still thinking that the book is wrong and they didn't know what they were talking about. It is definitely possible, but I don't think it's the best way to discuss canon (though fine for house rules). Just because Palladium uses a term doesn't mean that's how it works. That's why it's best to go off what the book says, especially since at the time Rifts Earth had been like 90% wilderness and would have been a major handicap for the BWW worthy of note.

Example: A vibro-knife is stated as doing damage from an energy field, not from vibration. Even though many people think this is silly and/or hate it, one is canon and one is not.

This knowledge also renders all of your comments about Line of Sight pretty pointless. Go look it up yourself, I am not going to waste thread space explaining how radar and echolocation work.

Okay, I conceed that one. Line of Sight can apply to radar as we know it. Discussing sniping, my mind went a slightly different direction, but I admit that LoS does apply to traditional Radar. My mistake.

Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.