Rifts: Middle East Sourcebook

[dworldjumper]

I find it hard to believe that with the part of the world that is the most...influential in the affairs of the world at large. the Middle East (I don't mean Egypt) doesn't have it's own source book. The Cradle of Human civilization is left out in the cold, and for what reason? I have know idea. I am sure that if we got some gamers from that part of the world together (in an effort not to offend anyone on purpose) We could come out with a really kicking source book. I mean really the people that have been living there have been fight for years. Do you think a small thing like a world war would snuff them into nothingness?. Seriously someone needs get working on this project. If there was ever a time to reach out to the Muslim communities (in American and beyond) and others that live in that part of the world this would be the time. I don't believe that Palladium can't put out a Middle East Source book make it a top seller and bring together of people of different backgrounds
dworldjumper

[Dustin Fireblade]

Palladium has said in the past they have no intention of touching this area. That said a board member here did a excellent netbook of the Middle East a few years back. I don't recall the whole story anymore, but he took it down due to the possibility of Palladium using it. Not sure what came of it though.

[dworldjumper]

Palladium has said in the past they have no intention of touching this area. That said a board member here did a excellent netbook of the Middle East a few years back. I don't recall the whole story anymore, but he took it down due to the possibility of Palladium using it. Not sure what came of it though.

Not to be mean or anything but I think you just contracted yourself. If Palladium stated that the would never touch that area,why would Palladium tell someone that they might use the stuff from his website if it pertains to the Middle East? I am not being critical but just wondering why that would have been said. dworldjumper

[Killer Cyborg]

Palladium has said in the past they have no intention of touching this area. That said a board member here did a excellent netbook of the Middle East a few years back. I don't recall the whole story anymore, but he took it down due to the possibility of Palladium using it. Not sure what came of it though.

Not to be mean or anything but I think you just contracted yourself. If Palladium stated that the would never touch that area,why would Palladium tell someone that they might use the stuff from his website if it pertains to the Middle East? I am not being critical but just wondering why that would have been said. dworldjumper

Probably because it's a "No, we're not going to do that, and IF we change our minds, we already have what we want, so quit with the pitches already" type situation.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Palladium has said in the past they have no intention of touching this area. That said a board member here did a excellent netbook of the Middle East a few years back. I don't recall the whole story anymore, but he took it down due to the possibility of Palladium using it. Not sure what came of it though.

Not to be mean or anything but I think you just contracted yourself. If Palladium stated that the would never touch that area,why would Palladium tell someone that they might use the stuff from his website if it pertains to the Middle East? I am not being critical but just wondering why that would have been said. dworldjumper

As I said, I don't recall the whole story behind it. Been a while now.

Basically what I think it comes down to is that Kevin has/had no interest in writing about the Middle East, and Palladium couldn't figure out a way to write it without it being seen as offensive somehow. When the Middle East Netbook was released by the board member (now a freelancer with Palladium), it was universally believed to be awesome. Kevin/Palladium saw it, and went "OH! That's the way to do it!" and decided it may just work after all. Shortly after that, the Middle East Netbook was taken down by the author. Of course that's been several years ago now and there hasn't been any movement on it at all to my knowledge.

I have no idea why they thought it would be offensive to write about the Middle East.(apparently it was believed that Recon Modern Combat would be offensive as well) - I guess because of the last decade of war?

[ingexthefuryhunter1]

because a cartoonist was axed to death for simply drawing a cartoon dipicting one of there deities. Can you imagine what a priest to some crazy faction over there would do if they found a middle east source book was against there religion. Those people take insanity to new levels. So I can see his point, I like to belive that when the rifts happened it devoured that dark pit of zealots just to equal out the karma scale for all the good people it had to kill to come into reality,

[Nekira Sudacne]

because a cartoonist was axed to death for simply drawing a cartoon dipicting one of there deities. Can you imagine what a priest to some crazy faction over there would do if they found a middle east source book was against there religion. Those people take insanity to new levels. So I can see his point, I like to belive that when the rifts happened it devoured that dark pit of zealots just to equal out the karma scale for all the good people it had to kill to come into reality,

I just have to point out, Muhammad is not a deity, he is a Prophet. In fact, that is why making images of him is forbidden, it is considered idolatry.

[ingexthefuryhunter1]

Thank you it was late when I wrote that and I couldnt rememebr if they held him as a prophet or a deity but either way it is crazy to kill some one for a cartoon.

[Dunia]

I consider it very rude to portrait a parody cartoon on someone's religion, when they know that it will offend people on a large scale.
Though I do not mind a book about Middle East, Islam or anything religious about Christianity or any religion as long as it can be done with a good intent.

But after what I saw that PB did with the Norse religion (which is a living faith in Sweden), I doubt that they will succeed. I know that one of my players who is a faithful worshipper of teh ASA faith, found some of CB 2 quite offensive. But I doubt that PB would care as they are not afraid that some Asa worshippers would bomb their houses. So they can insult the Norse mythology as much they want to and still try to act the good guys when it comes to faiths such as Islam, Christianity etc.

[Warwolf]

As far as the Middle East Book, the only reason Kev took a look at it was because it was based on the 1001 Arabian Nights mythology and had little if nothing to do with Islam other than possibly stating how many practitioners were in a given population. From what I know, Kev still felt that it would be best to keep that manuscript on the shelf rather than print it and risk upsetting some people. Especially given the fact that there were some ruffled feathers over the Preacher O.C.C. in New West, it's unfortunate but he's probably right to do so.

So they can insult the Norse mythology as much they want to and still try to act the good guys when it comes to faiths such as Islam, Christianity etc.

I don't think anything Palladium has done was ever intended to "insult" any particular faith. Just keep in mind that as Americans we aren't really exposed to ASA and thus it is typically thought of as Norse "mythology" by us and not something that immediately springs to mind as a religion. Also note that ANY of the "gods" in Palladium's books aren't necessarily meant to be the "true" gods of any real-world faith. Rather, they are highly powerful alien beings that others worship as "gods," and are thus labeled so.

I say this as a Native American who actually does have faith in at least some of the "old ways." I wasn't angered or upset when tribal culture was pretty much homogenized by Spirit West, as I understand that not only are there space restrictions but that ultimately we are talking about fiction-based games. Palladium didn't portray people of my ethnicity as uneducated heathens, evil magic-users that consort with dark magics, or anything of the like, so taking a few liberties with the culture and belief systems was ok by me for the most part.

[Looonatic]

I'd love to see the stats on God.

[Looonatic]

God? Which God? Him, Her, or Them?

Dude.

[The Beast]

I got a fan version from el magico -- darklorddc, IIRC. I haven't really gone through it too much though.

[Warwolf]

I got a fan version from el magico -- darklorddc, IIRC. I haven't really gone through it too much though.

That's the one that was submitted.

[Killer Cyborg]

I know that one of my players who is a faithful worshipper of teh ASA faith, found some of CB 2 quite offensive.

Why?

And how do they feel about the Thor movie?

[The Dark Elf]

Incidentally I have heard in the past people "moan" (not necesarily the best description) about why PB always has disclaimers in its books. this post clearly tells us why.

[Warwolf]

Incidentally I have heard in the past people "moan" (not necesarily the best description) about why PB always has disclaimers in its books. this post clearly tells us why.

Oddly enough, he's actually had parents thank him for those disclaimers. Parents... interested in knowing what their kids are reading/playing... shocking, I know.

[plata_knight]

dworldjumper wrote:
Dustin Fireblade wrote:
Palladium has said in the past they have no intention of touching this area. That said a board member here did a excellent netbook of the Middle East a few years back. I don't recall the whole story anymore, but he took it down due to the possibility of Palladium using it. Not sure what came of it though.

Not to be mean or anything but I think you just contracted yourself. If Palladium stated that the would never touch that area,why would Palladium tell someone that they might use the stuff from his website if it pertains to the Middle East? I am not being critical but just wondering why that would have been said. dworldjumper

As I said, I don't recall the whole story behind it. Been a while now.
Basically what I think it comes down to is that Kevin has/had no interest in writing about the Middle East, and Palladium couldn't figure out a way to write it without it being seen as offensive somehow. When the Middle East Netbook was released by the board member (now a freelancer with Palladium), it was universally believed to be awesome. Kevin/Palladium saw it, and went "OH! That's the way to do it!" and decided it may just work after all. Shortly after that, the Middle East Netbook was taken down by the author. Of course that's been several years ago now and there hasn't been any movement on it at all to my knowledge.

I loved that netbook. It was excellently written, fun and very respectful. To this day, I kick myself that I didn't think to take down more notes on that material before it was taken down. I only hope that it gets printed, as that is one book I would definitely buy.

[finn69]

I got a fan version from el magico -- darklorddc, IIRC. I haven't really gone through it too much though.

That's the one that was submitted.

i had a pdf of that as well.....lost it to a HD crash....data not recoverable....was a really realy awesome read

[drewkitty ~..~]

Palladium has said in the past they have no intention of touching this area. That said a board member here did a excellent netbook of the Middle East a few years back. I don't recall the whole story anymore, but he took it down due to the possibility of Palladium using it. Not sure what came of it though.

Not to be mean or anything but I think you just contracted yourself. If Palladium stated that the would never touch that area,why would Palladium tell someone that they might use the stuff from his website if it pertains to the Middle East? I am not being critical but just wondering why that would have been said. dworldjumper

Probably because it's a "No, we're not going to do that, and IF we change our minds, we already have what we want, so quit with the pitches already" type situation.

Why not touch the middle east?
There are people they of a religion that will Kill those how They perceive of insulting their religion or themselves.

[13eowulf]

There is a lot of turmoil there, I can see why a book would be put off, and understand the various reasons as to why.

That said I can also understand all the arguments in favour of such a book.

In my opinion the book either has to represent all the different peoples and beliefs of the region, or not try to represent any and do something original and unique, its an all or none situation, you cant leave part out, and I would be against trying to do multiple books for the area, unless they are a simultaneous release.

That said, can anyone direct me to a place I can read some of this material, or where I can get a copy of the old netbook? I would like to see this.
(Or any netbooks, I am gaining quite the collection, and for the most part I like what I read).

[cornholioprime]

I myself would really like to see a book based around the Middle East, especially if it has an Arabian Nights flavor.

I can understand the concerns of those who do not wish to offend certain cultures and their beliefs. But the Arab Nations have been talked about in other role playing games, with respect to its source material without any issue as far as I can tell.

In relation to the picture of Muhammed the prophet, they regard him as the perfect being that can't be represented in any artist dipection of him, that's why you'll never see his face.

I would be interested to know if anyone on the boards were of middle-eastern decent or even a follower of the Islamic faith to offer their thoughts on the matter.

A Rifts book set in the area could also act as an educational book as well, even if it adds the dynamic rifts twist to the area.

I think that an comprehensive explanation of the why behind the reasons such a Book won't get made, is a conversation for Forums other than Gaming.

[cyberdon]

I would LOVE this, netbook or otherwise.

[keir451]

As far as the Middle East Book, the only reason Kev took a look at it was because it was based on the 1001 Arabian Nights mythology and had little if nothing to do with Islam other than possibly stating how many practitioners were in a given population. From what I know, Kev still felt that it would be best to keep that manuscript on the shelf rather than print it and risk upsetting some people. Especially given the fact that there were some ruffled feathers over the Preacher O.C.C. in New West, it's unfortunate but he's probably right to do so.

So they can insult the Norse mythology as much they want to and still try to act the good guys when it comes to faiths such as Islam, Christianity etc.

I don't think anything Palladium has done was ever intended to "insult" any particular faith. Just keep in mind that as Americans we aren't really exposed to ASA and thus it is typically thought of as Norse "mythology" by us and not something that immediately springs to mind as a religion. Also note that ANY of the "gods" in Palladium's books aren't necessarily meant to be the "true" gods of any real-world faith. Rather, they are highly powerful alien beings that others worship as "gods," and are thus labeled so.

I say this as a Native American who actually does have faith in at least some of the "old ways." I wasn't angered or upset when tribal culture was pretty much homogenized by Spirit West, as I understand that not only are there space restrictions but that ultimately we are talking about fiction-based games. Palladium didn't portray people of my ethnicity as uneducated heathens, evil magic-users that consort with dark magics, or anything of the like, so taking a few liberties with the culture and belief systems was ok by me for the most part.

Especially considering that D&D published info on many pantheons, including the Norse pantheon, over 20 yrs ago in their Deities and Demigods book. Palladium is merely adapting the general (and most common) legends available to them.
But I can completely understand their reluctance to get involved in territory as historically complex as the Middle East. Currently it is, perhaps, easier to just leave it up to the individual players and GMs, thus they avoid any potential problems.

[The Dark Elf]

No Norse worshippers are gonna pull your arms off in anger. I say let the Wookie win!

[ffranceschi]

Is there anybody in the forums that actually live in the Middle East? It would be great to hear their opinion on the subject.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's the Fraked if you do Fraked if you don't thing.

1) As pointed out, --extremists-- sometimes do things that normal people would not. Religions from the area in question are word renown for it. Would somthing happen for sure? We can't say that. Is there the possibiltiy? Yes. And it's higher than if you inadvertantly offend some people of other religions.
2) There's no real way to do the book and win. You'll have to 1) Represent religions that -----noone----- at Palladium are qualified to touch. Any 'information' taken from google is going to be either A) Incorrect, B) GROSSLY incorrect, or C) Seen as Incorrect by some but right by others. So you're going to insult people. 2) You'll also have to 'advance' and update said religions into rifts.... and change them. Some people might think that it's cool but again this sort of goes back to 1, If you insult the wrong people with this, the extremists don't write a nasty letter. They blow up your cat. Or you house. Or your business. People forget the riots that started from that political cartoon killed 100s of people.
3) Jerusalem. No matter what you do with it you lose. A) Ignore it? You lose, people will claim you're racist or bigoted against their religion if you leave it out of the book. B) Say it's still around and you have to attribute it to one or more religions/peoples. If you give it to People X, People Y will be upset. If you give it to people Y, people X will be upset. If you split it between X AND Y, both X AND Y will be upset. And no pun intended, but heaven forbid that you DESTROY Jerusalem. Even with the Apocalypse. Then EVERYONE will be mad.

This is before you add in one alien, one dbee, one alien intelligence or one "Rifts society". Add those in and the above problems just become more complicated.

The concept is just lose lose all the way around. Rifts has dozens and dozens and dozens of books they can produce before ever 'having' to touch this area. Again not trying to be fully or punny or anything, but it's a socio-political fireball that they just don't need to "Risk" when there's other books they can produce with out risking such.

We MAY see an Egypt book at some point. It'll be horribly cliche, with the Egyptian gods running around and some evil guy or Set himself doing bad things, and the links are already there to link them to Atlantis, but that's as close as you're going to get.

[DhAkael]

Not caring. The crusades were several hundred years ago. MOVING ON...

[keir451]

It's the Fraked if you do Fraked if you don't thing.

1) As pointed out, --extremists-- sometimes do things that normal people would not. Religions from the area in question are word renown for it. Would somthing happen for sure? We can't say that. Is there the possibiltiy? Yes. And it's higher than if you inadvertantly offend some people of other religions.
2) There's no real way to do the book and win. You'll have to 1) Represent religions that -----noone----- at Palladium are qualified to touch. Any 'information' taken from google is going to be either A) Incorrect, B) GROSSLY incorrect, or C) Seen as Incorrect by some but right by others. So you're going to insult people. 2) You'll also have to 'advance' and update said religions into rifts.... and change them. Some people might think that it's cool but again this sort of goes back to 1, If you insult the wrong people with this, the extremists don't write a nasty letter. They blow up your cat. Or you house. Or your business. People forget the riots that started from that political cartoon killed 100s of people.
3) Jerusalem. No matter what you do with it you lose. A) Ignore it? You lose, people will claim you're racist or bigoted against their religion if you leave it out of the book. B) Say it's still around and you have to attribute it to one or more religions/peoples. If you give it to People X, People Y will be upset. If you give it to people Y, people X will be upset. If you split it between X AND Y, both X AND Y will be upset. And no pun intended, but heaven forbid that you DESTROY Jerusalem. Even with the Apocalypse. Then EVERYONE will be mad.
This is before you add in one alien, one dbee, one alien intelligence or one "Rifts society". Add those in and the above problems just become more complicated.

The concept is just lose lose all the way around. Rifts has dozens and dozens and dozens of books they can produce before ever 'having' to touch this area. Again not trying to be fully or punny or anything, but it's a socio-political fireball that they just don't need to "Risk" when there's other books they can produce with out risking such.

We MAY see an Egypt book at some point. It'll be horribly cliche, with the Egyptian gods running around and some evil guy or Set himself doing bad things, and the links are already there to link them to Atlantis, but that's as close as you're going to get.

That's why I just have the area be one big radioactive wasteland and call it good. Basically EVERYBODY and their brother were throwing SOME level of nuclear weapons around during the Chaos era and the Middle East just wound up totally glassed and no-one remembers who.
As for Egypt the closes we've come so far is Pharoh Rama-Set and the Cult of Dragon Wright that control Egypt currently. That much was disclosed in Rifts Africa.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's the Fraked if you do Fraked if you don't thing.

1) As pointed out, --extremists-- sometimes do things that normal people would not. Religions from the area in question are word renown for it. Would somthing happen for sure? We can't say that. Is there the possibiltiy? Yes. And it's higher than if you inadvertantly offend some people of other religions.
2) There's no real way to do the book and win. You'll have to 1) Represent religions that -----noone----- at Palladium are qualified to touch. Any 'information' taken from google is going to be either A) Incorrect, B) GROSSLY incorrect, or C) Seen as Incorrect by some but right by others. So you're going to insult people. 2) You'll also have to 'advance' and update said religions into rifts.... and change them. Some people might think that it's cool but again this sort of goes back to 1, If you insult the wrong people with this, the extremists don't write a nasty letter. They blow up your cat. Or you house. Or your business. People forget the riots that started from that political cartoon killed 100s of people.
3) Jerusalem. No matter what you do with it you lose. A) Ignore it? You lose, people will claim you're racist or bigoted against their religion if you leave it out of the book. B) Say it's still around and you have to attribute it to one or more religions/peoples. If you give it to People X, People Y will be upset. If you give it to people Y, people X will be upset. If you split it between X AND Y, both X AND Y will be upset. And no pun intended, but heaven forbid that you DESTROY Jerusalem. Even with the Apocalypse. Then EVERYONE will be mad.
This is before you add in one alien, one dbee, one alien intelligence or one "Rifts society". Add those in and the above problems just become more complicated.

The concept is just lose lose all the way around. Rifts has dozens and dozens and dozens of books they can produce before ever 'having' to touch this area. Again not trying to be fully or punny or anything, but it's a socio-political fireball that they just don't need to "Risk" when there's other books they can produce with out risking such.

We MAY see an Egypt book at some point. It'll be horribly cliche, with the Egyptian gods running around and some evil guy or Set himself doing bad things, and the links are already there to link them to Atlantis, but that's as close as you're going to get.

That's why I just have the area be one big radioactive wasteland and call it good. Basically EVERYBODY and their brother were throwing SOME level of nuclear weapons around during the Chaos era and the Middle East just wound up totally glassed and no-one remembers who.
As for Egypt the closes we've come so far is Pharoh Rama-Set and the Cult of Dragon Wright that control Egypt currently. That much was disclosed in Rifts Africa.

That's the thing. If you do that in your game, that's cool. If you publish a book where Jerusalem is blown up and annihilated it's seen as blasphemy by Millions of people. Some of those people are shall we say, more... Zealous than others in their objections to such things. Yes. Even in fictional rpg's.

It's just a risk/hot button that need not be touched.

For house games? Sure, do what you like, but understand Palladium is still on that razors edge of failure as a company and they are NOT going to risk it.

[ffranceschi]

That's the thing. If you do that in your game, that's cool. If you publish a book where Jerusalem is blown up and annihilated it's seen as blasphemy by Millions of people. Some of those people are shall we say, more... Zealous than others in their objections to such things. Yes. Even in fictional rpg's.

It's just a risk/hot button that need not be touched.

For house games? Sure, do what you like, but understand Palladium is still on that razors edge of failure as a company and they are NOT going to risk it.

Still, do you think that someone from that region is actually playing PB games? I think not but I can be mistaken.

[keir451]

It's the Fraked if you do Fraked if you don't thing.

1) As pointed out, --extremists-- sometimes do things that normal people would not. Religions from the area in question are word renown for it. Would somthing happen for sure? We can't say that. Is there the possibiltiy? Yes. And it's higher than if you inadvertantly offend some people of other religions.
2) There's no real way to do the book and win. You'll have to 1) Represent religions that -----noone----- at Palladium are qualified to touch. Any 'information' taken from google is going to be either A) Incorrect, B) GROSSLY incorrect, or C) Seen as Incorrect by some but right by others. So you're going to insult people. 2) You'll also have to 'advance' and update said religions into rifts.... and change them. Some people might think that it's cool but again this sort of goes back to 1, If you insult the wrong people with this, the extremists don't write a nasty letter. They blow up your cat. Or you house. Or your business. People forget the riots that started from that political cartoon killed 100s of people.
3) Jerusalem. No matter what you do with it you lose. A) Ignore it? You lose, people will claim you're racist or bigoted against their religion if you leave it out of the book. B) Say it's still around and you have to attribute it to one or more religions/peoples. If you give it to People X, People Y will be upset. If you give it to people Y, people X will be upset. If you split it between X AND Y, both X AND Y will be upset. And no pun intended, but heaven forbid that you DESTROY Jerusalem. Even with the Apocalypse. Then EVERYONE will be mad.
This is before you add in one alien, one dbee, one alien intelligence or one "Rifts society". Add those in and the above problems just become more complicated.

The concept is just lose lose all the way around. Rifts has dozens and dozens and dozens of books they can produce before ever 'having' to touch this area. Again not trying to be fully or punny or anything, but it's a socio-political fireball that they just don't need to "Risk" when there's other books they can produce with out risking such.

We MAY see an Egypt book at some point. It'll be horribly cliche, with the Egyptian gods running around and some evil guy or Set himself doing bad things, and the links are already there to link them to Atlantis, but that's as close as you're going to get.

That's why I just have the area be one big radioactive wasteland and call it good. Basically EVERYBODY and their brother were throwing SOME level of nuclear weapons around during the Chaos era and the Middle East just wound up totally glassed and no-one remembers who.
As for Egypt the closes we've come so far is Pharoh Rama-Set and the Cult of Dragon Wright that control Egypt currently. That much was disclosed in Rifts Africa.

That's the thing. If you do that in your game, that's cool. If you publish a book where Jerusalem is blown up and annihilated it's seen as blasphemy by Millions of people. Some of those people are shall we say, more... Zealous than others in their objections to such things. Yes. Even in fictional rpg's.

It's just a risk/hot button that need not be touched.

For house games? Sure, do what you like, but understand Palladium is still on that razors edge of failure as a company and they are NOT going to risk it.

Yep, that's exactly why I keep it as a "house rule" and only in my games.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's the thing. If you do that in your game, that's cool. If you publish a book where Jerusalem is blown up and annihilated it's seen as blasphemy by Millions of people. Some of those people are shall we say, more... Zealous than others in their objections to such things. Yes. Even in fictional rpg's.

It's just a risk/hot button that need not be touched.

For house games? Sure, do what you like, but understand Palladium is still on that razors edge of failure as a company and they are NOT going to risk it.

Still, do you think that someone from that region is actually playing PB games? I think not but I can be mistaken.

It doesn't matter what I think.And that's the thing. Are we talking about 'sane reactions'? No... no no no. The SANE reaction is "Dude it's an RPG. Who cares". But we're not talking about that. 100s of people DIED in the riots that followed a couple of poltical cartoons. Which the sane reaction should have been "Dude it's a cartoon. Who cares"

Do I think 100s of people will die if Palladium does it? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Do I think they might catch flack ANY way it's presented? yes. And they're just toooo close to closing the doors to risk it.

Do I THINK some zealot might blow up the office? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Is it a possibility, one higher than if you mess around with other religions? yes.

There are millions and millions of Muslims and Jews and such in the US. And.... in case no one's keepin' score, extremists hide among our population as well. Will the average Muslim do more than just shake their head? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.... They won't. But it's not the average people you gotta fret over. It's that one in a thousand that goes "Oh yeah? Blow up my holy land in your funny funny book will you? Lets see how YOU like fire, mr writer man!!" That could be bad. Even that is a -----REMOTE----- possibility.

What's far more likely is that many people are insulted as to how their religon and such are presented. People many times more prevelent than say.. the ones above that they pissed off with the Norse stuff. (( Not trying to discount you guys. I'm just saying that there's bunches more Muslims and such out there by number.)) Bad plublicity among an already shrinking player base is not going to help anyone. Every year we hear about how close Palladium is to closing it's doors. How they're running on a wing and a prayer. How they're down to 5 people and sometimes have to lay a few off to make it through slow times.

With all of that.... theres options. Option 1) Make a world book, for a select few people, and might enrage and inflame people to speak out against the company. or 2) Make other books of which anyone could list off 25 to 50 possibilitys with out even taking a breath.. and not do number 1.

Kevin isn't stupid. He knows no matter HOW it's written, the book would perturb SOMEONE. It'd anger SOMEONE, and those that would be angered, would be highly vocal about it. Even if nothing extreme happened, highly vocal angry people is not good for a company.

He's got dozens if not 100s of books he can do, and not get that reaction.

So why oh why should he risk such? Where's the benifit?

[Mercdog]

For my part, I have a few ideas for the area, but I've had no real reason to develop them. One of the major ones I had was a fadetown type mid-sized city from the Nightlands of the Nightbane setting appearing every night at sundown somewhere in what was once Iraq. But I'm still not sure how viable that is, since every doppleganger in the place would be 'awakened' upon arrival to Rifts Earth.

[ffranceschi]

That's the thing. If you do that in your game, that's cool. If you publish a book where Jerusalem is blown up and annihilated it's seen as blasphemy by Millions of people. Some of those people are shall we say, more... Zealous than others in their objections to such things. Yes. Even in fictional rpg's.

It's just a risk/hot button that need not be touched.

For house games? Sure, do what you like, but understand Palladium is still on that razors edge of failure as a company and they are NOT going to risk it.

Still, do you think that someone from that region is actually playing PB games? I think not but I can be mistaken.

It doesn't matter what I think.And that's the thing. Are we talking about 'sane reactions'? No... no no no. The SANE reaction is "Dude it's an RPG. Who cares". But we're not talking about that. 100s of people DIED in the riots that followed a couple of poltical cartoons. Which the sane reaction should have been "Dude it's a cartoon. Who cares"

Do I think 100s of people will die if Palladium does it? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Do I think they might catch flack ANY way it's presented? yes. And they're just toooo close to closing the doors to risk it.

Do I THINK some zealot might blow up the office? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Is it a possibility, one higher than if you mess around with other religions? yes.

There are millions and millions of Muslims and Jews and such in the US. And.... in case no one's keepin' score, extremists hide among our population as well. Will the average Muslim do more than just shake their head? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.... They won't. But it's not the average people you gotta fret over. It's that one in a thousand that goes "Oh yeah? Blow up my holy land in your funny funny book will you? Lets see how YOU like fire, mr writer man!!" That could be bad. Even that is a -----REMOTE----- possibility.

What's far more likely is that many people are insulted as to how their religon and such are presented. People many times more prevelent than say.. the ones above that they pissed off with the Norse stuff. (( Not trying to discount you guys. I'm just saying that there's bunches more Muslims and such out there by number.)) Bad plublicity among an already shrinking player base is not going to help anyone. Every year we hear about how close Palladium is to closing it's doors. How they're running on a wing and a prayer. How they're down to 5 people and sometimes have to lay a few off to make it through slow times.

With all of that.... theres options. Option 1) Make a world book, for a select few people, and might enrage and inflame people to speak out against the company. or 2) Make other books of which anyone could list off 25 to 50 possibilitys with out even taking a breath.. and not do number 1.

Kevin isn't stupid. He knows no matter HOW it's written, the book would perturb SOMEONE. It'd anger SOMEONE, and those that would be angered, would be highly vocal about it. Even if nothing extreme happened, highly vocal angry people is not good for a company.

He's got dozens if not 100s of books he can do, and not get that reaction.

So why oh why should he risk such? Where's the benifit?

Sad, but I agree with you.

[keir451]

@ Pepsi Jedi;

extremists hide among our population as well.

Very true, and some of them wear white sheets w/conical head covering and shout "White Power" and others "claim" to be Christian and wear everyday clothes. The potential for problems with the concept of a Middle East world book or attempting to define Christian mythos can come from either side of the ocean and come in any shape and size (more's the pity).

[nilgravity]

The Arabian Nights would be really cool. I think the best way to handle it would be to release some Rifter articles about aspects of the middle east without having a source book of the area. We already have Djinn. Add some more folklore stuff and stats for, I don't know, Arabian Cyber-Knights. On another thread someone was suggesting the Garden of Eden (the armed garden is a cool persian story).

So just cherry pick out different cool elements and let people come up with the rest on their own.

[13eowulf]

The Arabian Nights would be really cool. I think the best way to handle it would be to release some Rifter articles about aspects of the middle east without having a source book of the area. We already have Djinn. Add some more folklore stuff and stats for, I don't know, Arabian Cyber-Knights. On another thread someone was suggesting the Garden of Eden (the armed garden is a cool persian story).

So just cherry pick out different cool elements and let people come up with the rest on their own.

This is probably the best/only way we will get material on this released I think, if at all.

I would like to see something akin to The Arabian Nights as a multi-part Rifter article, that is a cool concept.

[The Dark Elf]

You could do an arabian nights themed Rifts book which I personally would love and because its Rifts it could actually be set:

In the antartic
Undersea
Underground
On a new Island
In Greenland
In another dimension!
Any- freakin' -where! (its Rifts!)

[Pepsi Jedi]

As far as the Middle East Book, the only reason Kev took a look at it was because it was based on the 1001 Arabian Nights mythology and had little if nothing to do with Islam other than possibly stating how many practitioners were in a given population. From what I know, Kev still felt that it would be best to keep that manuscript on the shelf rather than print it and risk upsetting some people. Especially given the fact that there were some ruffled feathers over the Preacher O.C.C. in New West, it's unfortunate but he's probably right to do so.

So they can insult the Norse mythology as much they want to and still try to act the good guys when it comes to faiths such as Islam, Christianity etc.

I don't think anything Palladium has done was ever intended to "insult" any particular faith. Just keep in mind that as Americans we aren't really exposed to ASA and thus it is typically thought of as Norse "mythology" by us and not something that immediately springs to mind as a religion. Also note that ANY of the "gods" in Palladium's books aren't necessarily meant to be the "true" gods of any real-world faith. Rather, they are highly powerful alien beings that others worship as "gods," and are thus labeled so.

I say this as a Native American who actually does have faith in at least some of the "old ways." I wasn't angered or upset when tribal culture was pretty much homogenized by Spirit West, as I understand that not only are there space restrictions but that ultimately we are talking about fiction-based games. Palladium didn't portray people of my ethnicity as uneducated heathens, evil magic-users that consort with dark magics, or anything of the like, so taking a few liberties with the culture and belief systems was ok by me for the most part.

Especially considering that D&D published info on many pantheons, including the Norse pantheon, over 20 yrs ago in their Deities and Demigods book. Palladium is merely adapting the general (and most common) legends available to them.
But I can completely understand their reluctance to get involved in territory as historically complex as the Middle East. Currently it is, perhaps, easier to just leave it up to the individual players and GMs, thus they avoid any potential problems.

I agree with Dunia. I think it is double standard to use and abuse one faith and then ignore to use Christian faith (is it the Religious Right that Palladium Books is afraid of?) or Islam (afraid of being drawn into any conflicts or even criticized by the moslim population?). Because here in Denmark as well as in sweden and Norway (and Island) Asa-worship is something that still is very important to us and in a way it defines us of who we are as well as it is our heritage. I can understand that Americans do not have that much history back (unless you count in the Native Americans) and it is fun to overdo and willingly misinterpret other faiths and history.
Yes I know that Dungeons & Dragons did it before I was born, my father have that book, and I can say that that game as well was no big hit here in Scandinavia. If we want to play games where Vikings and asa-worship exists, there are many games, I can think about 5 or 6 that are published in Gernamy, Sweden and Norway (one in Denmark) that actually depicts our heritage and culture in a good way.

I will rest my case about this, as I have just been told by a forum user here that (and it is a direct quote): "Also where the Norse failed, America succeeded (the complete colonization of the North American continent)" We all know that the Norse (Vikings) were great colonizers and exploiters of countries. We traded, explored and plundered, we never bothered of subjugating entire nations. We needed those to trade with (and plunder) so we usually built trading posts and raided the coastlines.

Just remember Amanda, just because one person is a jerk, doesn't make us all jerks. I'm on your side on this one.

[Hotrod]

I'm working through a Middle East Rifts Story right now; link's in my signature (If the length seems a bit much, just read the first 2-3 posts; it gives the short version on what happened).

I decided to take a radically new approach, rather than the 'take a cultural cliche and give it MDC' approach. The population is severely reduced, and lives in hidden refuges, so real estate and territory are more of a responsibility than a property. Every place of significance was nuked into radioactive glass just prior to the cataclysm.

I haven't explored religion directly in the book. It's not that no-one believes or practices anymore, it's just that those who survived are a lot more interested in continuing their survival than they are in whose holy book is the right one. Any group that didn't became extinct long ago.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

middle east world book, hmm sounds like a great idea, honestly he should do a middle east book, and have some twisted forms of angels and a fake "god" and other funny stuff like that,

heck look was disney did , without touching religion in the 3 movies and a tv series. and we cant get a 160 page book wth?

[keir451]

middle east world book, hmm sounds like a great idea, honestly he should do a middle east book, and have some twisted forms of angels and a fake "god" and other funny stuff like that,

heck look was disney did , without touching religion in the 3 movies and a tv series. and we cant get a 160 page book wth?

I know that Iron Crown Enterprise made a supplement to Rolemaster/Hero system where they explored the Arabian Nights setting, I know two danish RPG systems have done the same, that would be a way to do it. Focus on the djinns and Efreets and huge sultanates instead of adding faith into it. Make it a fantastic setting by telling how this far away place is a hub of science (mathematics, physics, astronomy and maybe even space engineering)

When the Rifts came, this part of the world d-shifted or something back to this era of legends...

That would be an interesting way to do it, the only problem is convincing the Palladium staff to do it.
Of course then there'd be the raging manure storm of criticism from the people who don't like the way the Sultanate is represented or some such thing.

[cornholioprime]

It's the Fraked if you do Fraked if you don't thing.

1) As pointed out, --extremists-- sometimes do things that normal people would not. Religions from the area in question are word renown for it. Would somthing happen for sure? We can't say that. Is there the possibiltiy? Yes. And it's higher than if you inadvertantly offend some people of other religions.
2) There's no real way to do the book and win. You'll have to 1) Represent religions that -----noone----- at Palladium are qualified to touch. Any 'information' taken from google is going to be either A) Incorrect, B) GROSSLY incorrect, or C) Seen as Incorrect by some but right by others. So you're going to insult people. 2) You'll also have to 'advance' and update said religions into rifts.... and change them. Some people might think that it's cool but again this sort of goes back to 1, If you insult the wrong people with this, the extremists don't write a nasty letter. They blow up your cat. Or you house. Or your business. People forget the riots that started from that political cartoon killed 100s of people.
3) Jerusalem. No matter what you do with it you lose. A) Ignore it? You lose, people will claim you're racist or bigoted against their religion if you leave it out of the book. B) Say it's still around and you have to attribute it to one or more religions/peoples. If you give it to People X, People Y will be upset. If you give it to people Y, people X will be upset. If you split it between X AND Y, both X AND Y will be upset. And no pun intended, but heaven forbid that you DESTROY Jerusalem. Even with the Apocalypse. Then EVERYONE will be mad.
This is before you add in one alien, one dbee, one alien intelligence or one "Rifts society". Add those in and the above problems just become more complicated.

The concept is just lose lose all the way around. Rifts has dozens and dozens and dozens of books they can produce before ever 'having' to touch this area. Again not trying to be fully or punny or anything, but it's a socio-political fireball that they just don't need to "Risk" when there's other books they can produce with out risking such.

We MAY see an Egypt book at some point. It'll be horribly cliche, with the Egyptian gods running around and some evil guy or Set himself doing bad things, and the links are already there to link them to Atlantis, but that's as close as you're going to get.

That's why I just have the area be one big radioactive wasteland and call it good. Basically EVERYBODY and their brother were throwing SOME level of nuclear weapons around during the Chaos era and the Middle East just wound up totally glassed and no-one remembers who.
As for Egypt the closes we've come so far is Pharoh Rama-Set and the Cult of Dragon Wright that control Egypt currently. That much was disclosed in Rifts Africa.

That's the thing. If you do that in your game, that's cool. If you publish a book where Jerusalem is blown up and annihilated it's seen as blasphemy by Millions of people. Some of those people are shall we say, more... Zealous than others in their objections to such things. Yes. Even in fictional rpg's.

It's just a risk/hot button that need not be touched.

For house games? Sure, do what you like, but understand Palladium is still on that razors edge of failure as a company and they are NOT going to risk it.

What Pepsi Jedi said.

And to further illustrate, I'll give you, keir451, a real-world, contemporary example.

Did you, keir, see the recent movie "2012?"

Are you aware that, INITIALLY, there was going to be a scene -either filmed or planned out (storyboarded) -that showed in addition to the destruction of the Vatican and the destruction of the Buddhist(??) temple, the destruction of the Grand Mosque of Kaaba in Mecca?

Do you need more than a single guess as to why they didn't even include THAT scene in the movie's final cut, or (AFAIK), not even in any of the DVD versions of the movie that were put out?

EDIT: They didn't even shoot the scene that Emmerich wanted moviegoers to see, much less cut it out of any finished product.

[ffranceschi]

Amanda, if you write a South America 3 book, and someone gets offended by it, it doesn't matter...I am 99% sure that the issue is going to be talked at the forums and that's it...BUT if you write something wrong about Middle East, there is a very high probability that the people living over there gets offended. An there are lots of people living in that part of the world that are more prone to extreme measures (because of a religious or cultural thing). Too dangerous.

[nilgravity]

Terrorism works, apparently...

[Cyber-Knight]

I bet that some of you would feel insulted and actually complain.

There's a huge difference between complaints... and death threats. Particularly if those death threats have a good chance of being carried out.

Remember the Danish Muhammed cartoon controversy? Danish police arrested three men intent on murdering one of the cartoonists. A man was arrested in Berlin after he went into a newspaper which reprinted the cartoons intent on killing the editor. Motivated by the cartoons, Lebanese students in Germany planted two suitcase bombs on trains which, thankfully, didn't go off due to an error in construction. The Danish embassy in Pakistan was bombed while the Danish embassies in Syria, Lebanon, and Iran were set on fire. These weren't isolated events, either, as they incited violent responses years after their original publication. Matt Stone and Trey Parker, the makers of South Park, were the target of a car bomb placed in Times Square because they made fun of Muhammed in an episode. That's a far cry from simple complaints. After all, they'd been making fun of Jesus for years, and yet nobody ever tried to kill them with a car bomb because of that.

So given that, I could see why Palladium wouldn't want to risk incurring the wrath of people who might not take too kindly to how they might depict the Middle East. Particularly since they're based out of Michigan, which has the largest Muslim population in the US. Really, why make trouble for themselves when they don't have to?

[Cyber-Knight]

In that part you bolded I was talking about Trey Parker and Matt Stone, the creators of South Park. The difference I was pointing out was that they (Trey Parker and Matt Stone) had been making fun of Jesus for years (He hosts a basic cable talk show in South Park) and they never had to worry about being killed by a car bomb until they had an episode where they made fun of Muhammed.

As for points 1 and 3, how many of those game supplements were set in a mythical past? We're not talking about the past, here, but the future. If you don't touch on Islam then it might work, although the absence of Islam may itself be taken as an insult. But if you do and somebody doesn't like it, then there are some serious repercussions to consider. After all, just look upthread. Somebody was offended over the portrayal of the Norse gods in Pantheons of the Megaverse, and that was pretty innocuous. If Palladium makes a misstep in how it treats Islam, how much worse could the potential criticism be? And given events around the world, one of the repercussions may very well be somebody kicking in Kevin Siembieda's front door and trying to cut his throat. It only takes one nut, after all, and when you're in the state with the largest American Muslim population, then the odds of there being at least one nut willing to come get you increases quite a bit.

[cornholioprime]

First: I must say that it is a difference in making a World book about the Middle East and posting very insulting pictures on Mohammed in a nationwide newspaper.

What you're not understanding is how "easy" it is for a Muslim who decides to do so, to "take offense" or "be insulted."

If you didn't see the earlier post about how the director/writer of "2012" was warned about even showing a natural disaster befalling Saudi Arabia, read it again.

To this day, I am truly, truly surprised that Kevin didn't get death threats sent his way (that I know of) for NOT mentioning Islam at all in his description of the Phoenix Empire (Egypt was once where the Caliphate was located, at least for a time).

Second: I have never heard a Muslim in anyway make fun of Jesus (or ʿĪsā as they call him). he is considerate a very important messenger of Allah and was conceived through holy conception to the virgin Mary (or Maryam) in order to give the new gospel to the children of Israel and at the same time showing the truth of the old gospel. he is considered to be a true Muslim (one who has submitted to the will and power of God/Allah), and the fact that he is mentioned in the Quran about 20 times more than Mohammed is shows that he is one of (if not The most) the important prophets (next after Mohammed himself).
What the Muslims do not believe about Jesus, is that he was crucified and resurrected on the third day, nor did he atone the sins of mankind. The Quran never says that he himself claimed any of this. Instead he was a human who like all prophets, had been divinely chosen by Allah to spread Allah's message. They do however believe in the second coming of Jesus. So I seriously doubt that any Muslim that follows the Quran with his or her heart would make fun of Jesus.
I am sorry if I have misspelled the names or if i have made some mistakes, it was some 3 years ago since i last read the Holy Book.

Are you aware that there are Muslims out there who have threatened both Muslims and non-Muslims alike with death for just drawing the man, whether the picture is offensive or not?

Third: I know at least three, maybe four RPG companies that have made a supplement about the Arabian Nights and I have not heard any disgruntled person who have threaten to destroy those companies or its employees. So why not make a World Book and call it WB 33: Arabian Nights, that way they are making a supplement based on a literature masterpiece (IMHO) and not of today's political map.

To repeat what the other poster has said, there's an infinite difference between re-creating the Arabian Nights and Ali Baba and Scheherazade and Aladdin and all the rest.........and trying to portray the Muslim world as it might exist (or not exist) in a post-apocalyptic RPG setting....without potentially ticking off somebody who might very well try to kill you.

Anybody know about any past or present Islam/Middle East -flavored RPGs out there (as opposed to ones that are "Arabian Nights" style)? I don't, and the reason why probably isn't coincidental.

[Cyber-Knight]

Well, how about a test? Mail copies of all three RPG's, particularly the sci-fi one set in the future, to a couple hard-line Islamic organizations and see what happens. That'd make for an interesting social experiment.