new rules for multiclassing.

[The Dark Elf]

1st edition has good simple rules for multiple OCCs.

[drewkitty ~..~]

ok I hate the existing rules for multi-classing, they are not competitive with other games out there and in my opinion are written to discourage people from multi-classing in palladium. I understand the thoughts behind that methodology, but don't agree with it. its a game, players want to make their characters wear several different hats, I say let them, but like other systems give them a cost.

feel free to critique this as I'm also looking for constructive criticism to make this rules set better. what I have so far.

1. must find someone to train you... medieval setting needs to train like a squire or apprentice, someone who will spend quality time teaching the student in down time or in game time.

2. the trainer must be confident enough to train/teach the class. he must be level 3 or more, Or whatever level the gm thinks appropriate.

3. look at the new class, in the occ skills and numbered abilities of the class, each one the player does not already posses takes 1d4-1 (minimum 1) month of time training to learn. skills must be picked up first if training in campaign. class abilities are learned last (in my games I say class abilities take a flat 3-4 months to learn each). You can focus on learning up to 3 different skills in one time period if all your character does is practice those and foregoes any other activities like adventuring, and that are all skills that don't require one another for prerequisites to each other(i.e. one cant be math, the other advanced math). Class abilities MUST be learned one at a time unless gm rules they are similar enough to be learned together in same time period. all new skills are 1st level, class abilities are not usable till a level in the class is taken(see below).

4. skills the character already has don't change, and take no time, unless they are skills that can be taken a second time to improve them, then player can choose to take 1d4-1 months to retrain and get the +x%, or can forgo that option and save time. (example some domestic skills can be taken again for a +10% and professional quality). these skills continue leveling when the character starts in his new class, just cause your learning and new at being a______________ doesn't mean you don't still learn new things every time you hop up on your horse and ride, the level freeze on skills of the old method in that respect never made any sense to me.

5. hand to hand takes no time if players current hand to hand is better, if the new one is better, it takes 3 months of training /step better. (player has hand to hand, new class uses martial, thats 6 months of training to bring his basic up to current level martial.

6 other related occ skills, character may take them and pay the 1d4-1 time training, or not and save time, up to them. Must have the prerequisite of corse, and someone to train them in that skill in the party or somewhere.
7 secondary skills, as they got these in their last class, and they reflect more like hobbies the players character had in his pre adventuring life, the player doesn't get any from the new class.

8 starting gear and money & all that, common sense, the trainer may give them stuff like holy symbols and basic stuff to start them out, but obviously an existing character gets no new money or equipment beyond that and will have to purchase what he needs.

9 after completing training of all abilities (gm may say 75% of the class abilities in special situations or for story sake) the next level earned in exp. can be taken in the new class. characters new skills with exception to hand to hand, start at level one ability, his old skills he has in common with the new class (skills both classes have in their occ skills) keep advancing at the level they were before+ each level of the new class(example wp sword was lv 5 in soldier class, takes 2 levels of paladin, so now wp sword is level 7). skills that are not available at all to the new class stop advancing(example lore magic, isn't available to new class) or advance at half rate(GM's call)

exception, secondary skills, still advance as they are independent of class/occupation and are lifelong hobbies (like roleplaying) that the character will always pursue.

spell level for casting classes are stopped or allowed to progress at half level(GM's discretion), wild talent psionics(none class related) continue.

thats it for now.

item 1: Alex you need to spell check your posts. This one had so many misspellings it was horrible. And the general incomplete thoughts of the sentences make it look/feel unfinished.

item 2: Yes, they are written to discourage people from changing the char's class in palladium. This also reflects the truth that in the culture, that a person tended to hold a job type all their lives.
PB also does not need to be "competitive" in this aspect of their game. Since most chars do not last very long, it is almost a non-issue.

1) Has no disagreement with the basic idea that the char would need to find a teacher. This is also very hard to do because most tradesmen are looking for young teens (at oldest) to train up in their trade.

2) Has no disagreement with the basic idea of this section. However, in PB squire is a OCC, not a knight in training.

3) While the Basic tasks of the skill can be picked up with relative ease for some skills. It is learning all the tasks of the skill and their polishing that take years to do.
So so it would be more like 3-4 years when the char has to forgo adventuring.

4) Remember that changing class is when your char decides to 'live a new life' and does not use the old skills because they are out of their new idea for living.
Not an ephemeral idea like "I want to learn how to do <X> to expand my knowledge."
It is like "I am no longer a solder, I am a Barkeep now"

5) This is the worst idea of the lot an is pure rubbish. IF, the char did nothing but train their h2h all day long, no holidays and other breaks you might be correct for bringing basic up to same level @ Expert. But bringing it to bring Expert to MA would require quite a bit of retraining and even then it would only bring it up to L1 MA h2h.

6) Has no disagreement with the basic idea.

7) Has no disagreement with the basic idea

8 ) Common sense, is most often wrong. Since most people do not think about things they are often wrong.
Otherwise, has no disagreement with the basic idea that the trainer will help out with specialty items, and the char will have to buy the rest out of pocket.

9) Has disagreement with the basic idea. Let's just say it is straying into very non-canon.

9.1) Has no disagreement with the basic idea of excluding secondary skills from being frozen.

9.2) Magic spells' "per level" are relative to the magic class level, nothing else.

9.3) Minor and Major psi's powers are "per level" relative to the higher level class.

[ScottBernard]

Well that was an extremely rude reply to someone offering new ideas. And "most characters dont last very long"?? I hesitate to ask what kind of games you're playing in or running. Dont believe in campaigns then?

Alex; please continue posting. You have interesting ideas.

[Cinos]

item 1: Alex you need to spell check your posts. This one had so many misspellings it was horrible. And the general incomplete thoughts of the sentences make it look/feel unfinished.

item 2: Yes, they are written to discourage people from changing the char's class in palladium. This also reflects the truth that in the culture, that a person tended to hold a job type all their lives.
PB also does not need to be "competitive" in this aspect of their game. Since most chars do not last very long, it is almost a non-issue.

item 1: Welcome to the internet?

item 2: Then why are the rules set that characters can hardly level? PB does need to be competitive in this aspect of their game since most people bloody love multi-classing, and most characters can start at a high enough level where it's instantly relevant, and many do last that long.

[The Dark Elf]

item 1: Welcome to the internet?

item 2: Then why are the rules set that characters can hardly level? PB does need to be competitive in this aspect of their game since most people bloody love multi-classing, and most characters can start at a high enough level where it's instantly relevant, and many do last that long.

[drewkitty ~..~]

item 1: Alex you need to spell check your posts. This one had so many misspellings it was horrible. And the general incomplete thoughts of the sentences make it look/feel unfinished.

....snip

item 1: Welcome to the internet?
...snip

Are not the tools on our comps suppose to make the quality of our writing?

[Cinos]

Are not the tools on our comps suppose to make the quality of our writing?

Yes, and it has largely declined America's ability to spell. As someone with a clinical explanation for my own bad spelling, I didn't start getting better until I stopped using a spellcheck. That point aside; not everyone speaks English on the internet, at times translator agents are used, and these leave much to be desired. Other times it's a second language without ideal situations to master English over night. In addition to that mass amount of problems, some people post from mobile devices which really bad keyboards where typing and even spell checking is a monster choir for a hobby about talking about random people who happen to play the same rules of pretend you do. Or you could be like me at the moment, where I have massive lines across my screen that makes reading / spelling -very- difficult, a post like this taking nearly 10 minutes to get right through silly things. Or at times their shift keys don't work.

So rather then try to judge someone and call out their bad spelling and grammar, instead understand that not everyone has the time, concern, or capability to do the same.

Would you instead like to make a legitimate counter to the actual valid point I countered you with, or snipe with smiley faces, the scourge of the internet?

To AlexanderD, you make some valid points I largely agree with your points as to why I allow them. Classes don't make people, people make classes. You expand your game by allowing multi classing by giving players a much greater degree of creative control, both from a game play level, and a conceptual character level. An ex-soldier who's taken to living in the woods and guiding strangers through trecious passes after losing his wife? Bam done, Soldier / Ranger. A wizard who's also dedicated his life to the master of martial combat in the view that if the soul must be perfect to conduct magic, so too must the body be aligned? Bam, Monk - Wizard (or Mystic/Summoner/Diabloist/Necromancer). An archer who's found the true calling in the archery god of Rurga (Who's name annoyingly escapes me), done, Priest of Light / Longbowmen.

All of these examples will be easily done with the wonders of multi-classing should -useable and practical- rules that help encourage, rather then discourage, these choices and make them a viable window for players.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I got better once I started posting to this board and using the spellcheck. Just that I was writing more and seeing what I was misspelling helped out a lot.

[Cinos]

I got better once I started posting to this board and using the spellcheck. Just that I was writing more and seeing what I was misspelling helped out a lot.

Would you instead like to make a legitimate counter to the actual valid point I countered you with, or snipe with smiley faces, the scourge of the internet?

I see the answer to my question is "No".

[Cinos]

no longer a dee bee whoyea!!!!!!!!! thanks Cinos. im glad several people agree with most my ideas, i think I now have a workable start for my own games house rules.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Wanderer! No longer will the CS hound your trail!

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
item 2: Yes, they are written to discourage people from changing the char's class in palladium. This also reflects the truth that in the culture, that a person tended to hold a job type all their lives.
PB also does not need to be "competitive" in this aspect of their game. Since most chars do not last very long, it is almost a non-issue.

snip...

item 2: Then why are the rules set that characters can hardly level? PB does need to be competitive in this aspect of their game since most people bloody love multi-classing, and most characters can start at a high enough level where it's instantly relevant, and many do last that long.

Because the exp. tables are set up to keep chars in the "playable" area of experience, and not the really high level and I'm ƒ¨ç˚ˆ˜© bored with the dreary same orcs and dragon slaying. They reflect real life where it takes more and more difficult challenges to get better. And that getting better is only fractional betterment at most.

Multi-classing is a sign that the player is bored from lack of challenges or is developing munchkin tendencies.

[Cinos]

Multi-classing is a sign that the player is board from lack of challenges or is developing munchkin tendencies

An ex-soldier who's taken to living in the woods and guiding strangers through trecious passes after losing his wife? Bam done, Soldier / Ranger. A wizard who's also dedicated his life to the master of martial combat in the view that if the soul must be perfect to conduct magic, so too must the body be aligned? Bam, Monk - Wizard (or Mystic/Summoner/Diabloist/Necromancer). An archer who's found the true calling in the archery god of Rurga (Who's name annoyingly escapes me), done, Priest of Light / Longbowmen.

So which of these sound like they are driven from my nature to Min-Max, rather then a desire to play a character with more depth them "I'm a soldier"? The only one that would step into that realm is my suggested Wizard / Monk and honestly, I've tried that, and it sucks. Priest of Light / Bowmen is awful. From a game play / min-max stand point, I'd way rather be one or the other (Bowmen / Necro or Bowmen / Priest of Dark on the other hand, is insanely good, as is Assassin / Bowmen). Multi-Classing does open the door for many high power combo of classes, which means -players who enjoy that aspect of the game are allowed to enjoy the game-. Meaning more players for Palladium. Those who enjoy a single class can -easily do that-. No one is twisting their arm into it. If you like playing low power characters, great, there are classes for that. In my meta, many players choose less good choices even when highly aware of the high power ones. I've a game running with multi-classing galore, where one player picked Noble / Thief while standing next to a Diabolist. He's done -nothing- significant in or out of combat. He's one of the favored characters of the group. In another instance, a player made a Warrior / Wizard, getting the physical buff spells, and wrecking more face then a drunk plastic surgeon. The character is still highly interesting and very dynamic.

As to EXP and leveling in general in Palladium; So you're suggestion by design, the game is intended to keep you in the exact same position of character state without ever learning more then extremely minor additions to your skills after years? Years? I've gone from a complete stranger to the art, to considered a local pro-painter in under 6 months. That's an entire skill from 0 to at least 50% in under 6 months. I took no training, no classes and no relative art background to build off of (3D Design leaves little in common with painting). I've spent a decade driving, and I'm still just about as good as I was when I started with little to no marked improvement. In short; Palladium skills and Leveling simply do not reflect people to start with, it's a game mechanic that's out modded by decades. That all of your skills crawl along after a decade of character life? That the difference between a practiced master and a unskilled in the class is a modest margin at best, and classes by and large gain nothing from their level anyway?

I don't see why people assume just because you enjoy a character who isn't a cripple, you also can't have a rich character personality with dynamic goals and infra-personal relations with the world of that character. These are not mutually exclusive things.

Also because it's bugging me, MDC Damage is not an Oxymoron, it's redundant.

[tmikesecrist3]

I like the roles for mult classing in PF it seams fair and resable and ireflcts that some one can change there correrar. they dont level under the old one though becosue there not focesing on those skills any more

[drewkitty ~..~]

Multi-classing is a sign that the player is board or is developing munchkin tendencies.

This was the 1st draft of that line.

I for one use the other method of getting things to be fresh and use a new char. But more often then not just a new char for each campaign cause nearly every time I have a new GM for each campaign and they want a new char for it.

I like the roles for multi classing in PF it seams fair and resable and ireflcts that some one can change there correrar. they dont level under the old one though becosue there not focesing on those skills any more

Spell check and use punctuation and maybe spaces and capitals.
Rereading what you just wrote BEFORE posting helps you recognize that you need those things.

I'm pretty sure you needs the words like "rules" and "reasonable", and "it reflects", and "career", and "don't" and "because" and "focusing". But I am not absolutely sure.

note: If no one critiques, then the person being critiqued does not know they are in needing of correction.

[tmikesecrist3]

drewkitty ~..~ Thank you you were helpful with out being rude. I do in fact have Dyslexia. I try and spell check don't always work for me but you got it for the most part.

[The Dark Elf]

drewkitty ~..~ Thank you you were helpful with out being rude. I do in fact have Dyslexia. I try and spell check don't always work for me but you got it for the most part.

Don't concern yourself with grammar and spelling. You post was legible. Drewkitty can often be very pretentious but he does come in handed when you want to know what the canon rules are on something.

[Cinos]

Multi-classing is a sign that the player is board from lack of challenges or is developing munchkin tendencies.

board should be bored

Planking; the source is found. Who knew multi-classing was a sign?

[talmor]

We don't actually use "multiclass" rules. Generally, we just tweak the current class to reflect the changes that the character has gone through.

So, if the Ranger became a devotee of the Gods of Light, we'd whip up a new class called the "Archer of the Gods" or something, and build it from there. This class may not get spells or other divine gifts until level 3 (or whatever level the Ranger was initially), but there you go. If he begins training a new Archer of the Gods as an apprentice or the like, then we tweak the class to reflect that new persons skills.

I don't know, I've never really viewed Palladium as overly class-focused. It's not like there's only a tiny number of classes that reflect grand mythic archetypes, but rather builds reflecting different concepts. As the concept changes, so does the class.