NightBane, Rifts crossover

[Nightmask]

Nightbane have no problems ending up in Rifts (or Phase world for that matter), there's even one that's an NPC guardian of a town in one of the books. The Nightlords can't do much of anything to stop random rifts, and Mirror Mages can enter a dimension that's linked to just about every other dimension and one can easily end up by mistake on just about any world out there a GM wants to have you end up in.

[auyl]

Seeing as there are Nightbane conversion rules in the Dark Conversions book it only follows that Nightbane are finding their way to Rifts Earth. The other option is that Nightbane are appearing on Rifts Earth without being rifted there but it's entirely possible that they are coming from their natural setting into Rifts. I don't recall Nightlords being able to stop dimensional doorways as mentioned above, or else they would be able to stop mirror walking and they can't do that.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yes, NB can come to rifts earth and can be native to RE. The better rifts conversion notes are in the NB MB. The ones in the RDC are munckin.

[Rallan]

One thing to keep in mind is that even by Rifts standards, Nightbane make pretty powerful player characters. Even before we add the bonuses that their own unique Morphus Form gives them, they're badass. They get physical attribute bonuses comparable to a Juicer, combat bonuses comparable to a Juicer, an extra attack per round, supernatural strength, a starting average of well over 100 MDC, fast regeneration than virtually anything else in the game, natural immunities to a plethora of things, saving throw bonuses to virtually everything that they aren't immune to, several PPE-fuelled powers that can give them more flexibility than a Heroes Unlimited mega-hero, and the option of becoming a spellcasting OCC. Oh and eternal youth.

So it's probably best not to allow them as PCs unless you're running a campaign where everyone's playing high-powered supernatural characters.

[Rallan]

I'm not sure if culture shock would be much of an equalizer. A Nightbane's big strength is being a combat wombat, and the fact that he doesn't know how to implant someone's bionics or repair a damaged robot isn't going to stop him from kicking ass and taking names. Plus his asskicking ability would be wasted if he was inside a mecha or a vehicle (or even a suit of power armor), so his ignorance of how to pilot futuristic war machines is no big deal either. The only Rifts-specific skills that he really needs to be even better at his job than he already is are the various energy weapon WPs, and the only downside to not having those WPs is that he won't get the accuracy bonus.

[Shark_Force]

on the contrary, it's reasonable to expect that (initially, at least) a nightbane won't be familiar with rifts radios, rifts computers, or even rifts vehicles.

you really think the basic technology for those isn't going to change in 90 years of technological progress followed by a couple hundred years of dark ages followed by ~100 years of recovery?

a lot of basic devices will not necessarily operate on the same principle by that time. some will, but a lot won't. until the nightbane has had time to adjust, i figure he'll probably be pretty frustrated.

(don't believe me? find someone who hasn't used cell phones over the past 15 years. hand them a smart phone and tell them to make a phone call. watch them stare at it blankly for a while. ultimately, you'll probably have to walk them through the process. now imagine that instead of 15 years, it was 90 years. and then people lost everything, and had to rebuild from scratch or from what they can salvage. then fast forward 300+ years. you really think that nightbane is going to have an in-depth understanding of even *basic* 2098 technology?).

[auyl]

on the contrary, it's reasonable to expect that (initially, at least) a nightbane won't be familiar with rifts radios, rifts computers, or even rifts vehicles.

you really think the basic technology for those isn't going to change in 90 years of technological progress followed by a couple hundred years of dark ages followed by ~100 years of recovery?

a lot of basic devices will not necessarily operate on the same principle by that time. some will, but a lot won't. until the nightbane has had time to adjust, i figure he'll probably be pretty frustrated.

(don't believe me? find someone who hasn't used cell phones over the past 15 years. hand them a smart phone and tell them to make a phone call. watch them stare at it blankly for a while. ultimately, you'll probably have to walk them through the process. now imagine that instead of 15 years, it was 90 years. and then people lost everything, and had to rebuild from scratch or from what they can salvage. then fast forward 300+ years. you really think that nightbane is going to have an in-depth understanding of even *basic* 2098 technology?).

If the Nightbane is native to Nightbane earth then yes, this would be reasonable. If however they are native to Rifts earth, then they would be very familiar with modern Rifts technology. The rules in the conversion books make the second possibility a reality.

[Shark_Force]

on the contrary, it's reasonable to expect that (initially, at least) a nightbane won't be familiar with rifts radios, rifts computers, or even rifts vehicles.

you really think the basic technology for those isn't going to change in 90 years of technological progress followed by a couple hundred years of dark ages followed by ~100 years of recovery?

a lot of basic devices will not necessarily operate on the same principle by that time. some will, but a lot won't. until the nightbane has had time to adjust, i figure he'll probably be pretty frustrated.

(don't believe me? find someone who hasn't used cell phones over the past 15 years. hand them a smart phone and tell them to make a phone call. watch them stare at it blankly for a while. ultimately, you'll probably have to walk them through the process. now imagine that instead of 15 years, it was 90 years. and then people lost everything, and had to rebuild from scratch or from what they can salvage. then fast forward 300+ years. you really think that nightbane is going to have an in-depth understanding of even *basic* 2098 technology?).

If the Nightbane is native to Nightbane earth then yes, this would be reasonable. If however they are native to Rifts earth, then they would be very familiar with modern Rifts technology. The rules in the conversion books make the second possibility a reality.

fair enough. a nightbane native to rifts earth doesn't really make sense to me, but i could certainly accept something that mechanically is exactly the same as a nightbane, but with different flavor.

[Galroth]

on the contrary, it's reasonable to expect that (initially, at least) a nightbane won't be familiar with rifts radios, rifts computers, or even rifts vehicles.

you really think the basic technology for those isn't going to change in 90 years of technological progress followed by a couple hundred years of dark ages followed by ~100 years of recovery?

a lot of basic devices will not necessarily operate on the same principle by that time. some will, but a lot won't. until the nightbane has had time to adjust, i figure he'll probably be pretty frustrated.

(don't believe me? find someone who hasn't used cell phones over the past 15 years. hand them a smart phone and tell them to make a phone call. watch them stare at it blankly for a while. ultimately, you'll probably have to walk them through the process. now imagine that instead of 15 years, it was 90 years. and then people lost everything, and had to rebuild from scratch or from what they can salvage. then fast forward 300+ years. you really think that nightbane is going to have an in-depth understanding of even *basic* 2098 technology?).

If the Nightbane is native to Nightbane earth then yes, this would be reasonable. If however they are native to Rifts earth, then they would be very familiar with modern Rifts technology. The rules in the conversion books make the second possibility a reality.

fair enough. a nightbane native to rifts earth doesn't really make sense to me, but i could certainly accept something that mechanically is exactly the same as a nightbane, but with different flavor.

The Nightbane book talks about Nightbane that are native to Rifts earth. They are just not as numerous since the Night Lords haven't come back to Rifts Earth yet. (I believe, I'm not at my books right now.)

[Shark_Force]

The Nightbane book talks about Nightbane that are native to Rifts earth. They are just not as numerous since the Night Lords haven't come back to Rifts Earth yet. (I believe, I'm not at my books right now.)

odd. either i must have completely missed that, or you must have misremembered it. i don't recall anything that remotely implied nightbane were native to any other setting. but i could be wrong. i have been in the past.

are you sure that isn't possibly in the rifts conversion book (dark conversions) instead? i don't own that book (yet), so me not noticing it would make sense in that case, and it seems a more logical place to find that particular piece of information, since that's the book that actually provides conversion rules for nightbane in rifts.

[Galroth]

The Nightbane book talks about Nightbane that are native to Rifts earth. They are just not as numerous since the Night Lords haven't come back to Rifts Earth yet. (I believe, I'm not at my books right now.)

odd. either i must have completely missed that, or you must have misremembered it. i don't recall anything that remotely implied nightbane were native to any other setting. but i could be wrong. i have been in the past.

are you sure that isn't possibly in the rifts conversion book (dark conversions) instead? i don't own that book (yet), so me not noticing it would make sense in that case, and it seems a more logical place to find that particular piece of information, since that's the book that actually provides conversion rules for nightbane in rifts.

I'll try and find the reference the next time I look through my books. Try the back of the main Nightbane book where the conversion materials are for Rifts.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The text regarding RE native NB should be in the RDC. I just liked in the NB MB and didn't find them.

[Jedrious]

The text regarding RE native NB should be in the RDC. I just liked in the NB MB and didn't find them.

Nope, the small mention was in Between the Shadows, didn't really touch on rarity, but did mention guidelines for which DBs could have the potential for being Nightbane

In RDC, it mentions that Nightbane will not be native to Rifts Earth unless either a NIghtlord/Night Prince enters the realm spontaneously creating a hundred Nightbane or a dozen doppleganger swaps creates a single Nightbane

The RDC also contradicts Between the Shadows on the facade racial limitations

[drewkitty ~..~]

Nope, the small mention was in Between the Shadows, didn't really touch on rarity, but did mention guidelines for which DBs could have the potential for being Nightbane
...snip

This is what I was remembering.

As I mentioned elsewhere, the RDC conversions for NB are so munchy it is the reason I only make NightSpawn anymore. Cause every game I get into tends to be (or ends up to be) a Rifts game of some sort.

[Rallan]

on the contrary, it's reasonable to expect that (initially, at least) a nightbane won't be familiar with rifts radios, rifts computers, or even rifts vehicles.

you really think the basic technology for those isn't going to change in 90 years of technological progress followed by a couple hundred years of dark ages followed by ~100 years of recovery?

a lot of basic devices will not necessarily operate on the same principle by that time. some will, but a lot won't. until the nightbane has had time to adjust, i figure he'll probably be pretty frustrated.

(don't believe me? find someone who hasn't used cell phones over the past 15 years. hand them a smart phone and tell them to make a phone call. watch them stare at it blankly for a while. ultimately, you'll probably have to walk them through the process. now imagine that instead of 15 years, it was 90 years. and then people lost everything, and had to rebuild from scratch or from what they can salvage. then fast forward 300+ years. you really think that nightbane is going to have an in-depth understanding of even *basic* 2098 technology?).

Which makes a Nightbane about as handicapped as any other dimensional traveller from a world that's less technologically advanced than Rifts Earth.

Except that he's already familiar with the concept of dimensional travel and the danger posed by demons. And he's got enough superpowers and MDC to beat virtually anything wimpier than a Cosmo-Knight in a standup fight.

[Galroth]

on the contrary, it's reasonable to expect that (initially, at least) a nightbane won't be familiar with rifts radios, rifts computers, or even rifts vehicles.

you really think the basic technology for those isn't going to change in 90 years of technological progress followed by a couple hundred years of dark ages followed by ~100 years of recovery?

a lot of basic devices will not necessarily operate on the same principle by that time. some will, but a lot won't. until the nightbane has had time to adjust, i figure he'll probably be pretty frustrated.

(don't believe me? find someone who hasn't used cell phones over the past 15 years. hand them a smart phone and tell them to make a phone call. watch them stare at it blankly for a while. ultimately, you'll probably have to walk them through the process. now imagine that instead of 15 years, it was 90 years. and then people lost everything, and had to rebuild from scratch or from what they can salvage. then fast forward 300+ years. you really think that nightbane is going to have an in-depth understanding of even *basic* 2098 technology?).

Which makes a Nightbane about as handicapped as any other dimensional traveller from a world that's less technologically advanced than Rifts Earth.

Except that he's already familiar with the concept of dimensional travel and the danger posed by demons. And he's got enough superpowers and MDC to beat virtually anything wimpier than a Cosmo-Knight in a standup fight.

Depending of course on his ability to roll well when generating his Morphus. Bad rolls and the character is in a lot of trouble.

[Rallan]

on the contrary, it's reasonable to expect that (initially, at least) a nightbane won't be familiar with rifts radios, rifts computers, or even rifts vehicles.

you really think the basic technology for those isn't going to change in 90 years of technological progress followed by a couple hundred years of dark ages followed by ~100 years of recovery?

a lot of basic devices will not necessarily operate on the same principle by that time. some will, but a lot won't. until the nightbane has had time to adjust, i figure he'll probably be pretty frustrated.

(don't believe me? find someone who hasn't used cell phones over the past 15 years. hand them a smart phone and tell them to make a phone call. watch them stare at it blankly for a while. ultimately, you'll probably have to walk them through the process. now imagine that instead of 15 years, it was 90 years. and then people lost everything, and had to rebuild from scratch or from what they can salvage. then fast forward 300+ years. you really think that nightbane is going to have an in-depth understanding of even *basic* 2098 technology?).

Which makes a Nightbane about as handicapped as any other dimensional traveller from a world that's less technologically advanced than Rifts Earth.

Except that he's already familiar with the concept of dimensional travel and the danger posed by demons. And he's got enough superpowers and MDC to beat virtually anything wimpier than a Cosmo-Knight in a standup fight.

Depending of course on his ability to roll well when generating his Morphus. Bad rolls and the character is in a lot of trouble.

Even if we decide that he magically managed to roll up a morphus that grants no extra bonuses at all, he's still a monumental badass. Especially if he "rolls"* the sort of attributes that most people roll for their characters.


*I do of course mean that everyone cheats during chargen

[Rallan]

So you're point is that a Nightbane's not unbalanced because he's on a par with some of the most unbalanced classes in the game? Yeah I got nothin'.

[Jedrious]

Even if we decide that he magically managed to roll up a morphus that grants no extra bonuses at all, he's still a monumental badass. Especially if he "rolls"* the sort of attributes that most people roll for their characters.


*I do of course mean that everyone cheats during chargen

Funny, my group enjoys making our characters together and collaboratively discovering which personality traits might have emerged as their Morphus.

[Rallan]

So you're point is that a Nightbane's not unbalanced because he's on a par with some of the most unbalanced classes in the game? Yeah I got nothin'.

I'd say from your dismissive attitude, yeah, you do have nothing.

You're pointing to classes that are incredibly unbalanced and which easily overshadow most other Rifts classes. To argue that nightbane don't present game balance issues in Rifts because they aren't that bad compared to the most incredibly powerful classes in Rifts is to argue that Rifts doesn't have serious game balance issues.

[Nightmask]

So you're point is that a Nightbane's not unbalanced because he's on a par with some of the most unbalanced classes in the game? Yeah I got nothin'.

I'd say from your dismissive attitude, yeah, you do have nothing.

You're pointing to classes that are incredibly unbalanced and which easily overshadow most other Rifts classes. To argue that nightbane don't present game balance issues in Rifts because they aren't that bad compared to the most incredibly powerful classes in Rifts is to argue that Rifts doesn't have serious game balance issues.

Balance is relative, and Hatchling Dragons and Glitter Boys while powerful there are many things around that can chew them up pretty easily and the same goes for a Nightbane. They certainly aren't the 'most powerful classes in Rifts'. They don't even come close to matching what you have to deal with from something like a vampire or murder wraith for example. Nightbane also have the vulnerability like the GB in that they're only MDC and supernaturally powerful when transformed, in their human form they're as helpless (or not) as any other human.

[Rallan]

I would say that approximate all the classes in Rifts are completely out of whack, and the problem is exacerbated by the fact that the books virtually never address the issue at all, let alone try to lay down some hard and fast guidelines on fundamentals like "how to make a balanced party" or "how to give your party a balanced challenge".

In most RPGs these days, game balance is something that's deliberately built into the game mechanics, and areas of the game which aren't balanced are clearly signposted with some advice about the challenges of running PCs with radically different power levels. In Rifts, game balance is something that just does not exist unless the players and the GM all agree to invent it out of whole cloth.

The fact that some classes (a small handful of classes) can compete with a Nightbane does not mean that a Nightbane is a balanced character choice in Rifts. It just means that Nightbane are on a par with the top-tier classes that will dominate any Rifts party by dint of being insanely powerful.

Also, most of the classes you listed don't have a snowball's chance in hell of beating a Nightbane, because a Nightbane with MDC weapons and armor will poop all over, say, a Juicer or a mage or a master psychic with MDC weapons and armor. A Nightbane with decent combat equipment is something that can perform well going toe to toe with a giant combat robot, and it's gonna leave everything but supernatural powerhouses and the most insanely badass high tech powerhouses (full conversion borgs, some of the twinkier mecha) for dead.

[Rallan]

The same place every other PC with a weaksauce "Um... I guess he fell through a Rift?" excuse for a backstory gets them: he's either allowed them during chargen or the GM gives him the opportunity to acquire them. I mean we are talking about Nightbanes as PCs here, so if anything it would be more artificially limiting to assume that they don't have access to MDC gear. Plus y'know, there's this thing called Darkwhip, which doesn't have a damage cap and which can do guaranteed one-hit-kills on anyone in body armor (and destroy giant mecha in under a round) if a Nightbane feels like blowing a significant chunk of his PPE to thoroughly own a fight.

I ain't the one who's taking a ridiculous position here, since I'm not the one trying to argue that Nightbane PCs don't outclass virtually every class in Rifts.

[Jedrious]

The same place every other PC with a weaksauce "Um... I guess he fell through a Rift?" excuse for a backstory gets them: he's either allowed them during chargen or the GM gives him the opportunity to acquire them. I mean we are talking about Nightbanes as PCs here, so if anything it would be more artificially limiting to assume that they don't have access to MDC gear. Plus y'know, there's this thing called Darkwhip, which doesn't have a damage cap and which can do guaranteed one-hit-kills on anyone in body armor (and destroy giant mecha in under a round) if a Nightbane feels like blowing a significant chunk of his PPE to thoroughly own a fight.

I ain't the one who's taking a ridiculous position here, since I'm not the one trying to argue that Nightbane PCs don't outclass virtually every class in Rifts.

Darkwhip actually does have a damage cap, there is no damage chart that I have seen listing the damage for supernatural strength beyond 60 which means the talent is really capped at 1d6x10 damage per normal attack, which(while impressive) cannot guarantee a one-hit-kill against someone with body armor. I am not arguing that nightbane are weaklings by any degree, but you seem to insinuate that they should be held to the same 'no munchkins' response as cosmo-knights, and they really are not at that level.
Half of the classes inn the RUE can outclass virtually every class in Rifts, which actually lends more to the arguement of them being allowed in a Rifts game, since those half of the classes are actually the ICONIC classes of Rifts and are likely to be included in virtually any Rifts game anyway...

[omega2672]

The same place every other PC with a weaksauce "Um... I guess he fell through a Rift?" excuse for a backstory gets them: he's either allowed them during chargen or the GM gives him the opportunity to acquire them. I mean we are talking about Nightbanes as PCs here, so if anything it would be more artificially limiting to assume that they don't have access to MDC gear. Plus y'know, there's this thing called Darkwhip, which doesn't have a damage cap and which can do guaranteed one-hit-kills on anyone in body armor (and destroy giant mecha in under a round) if a Nightbane feels like blowing a significant chunk of his PPE to thoroughly own a fight.

I ain't the one who's taking a ridiculous position here, since I'm not the one trying to argue that Nightbane PCs don't outclass virtually every class in Rifts.

Again, I see ZERO EVIDENCE, only your opinion which you are trying to pass off as fact without any supporting evidence. I provided evidence for my position. You have only provided supposition and a dismissive attitude. I have also been met with you changing the terms of the discussion for no other reason than to add unfounded weight to your case.

At this point, I am tempted to throw up my hands and dismiss you as another "special case" of someone who believes they are right by sole virtue that their opinion is infallible. However, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

Clearly you have no evidence at hand to prove how nightbane supposedly out-class every other class in Rifts. I will give you this opportunity. Show me in the relevant books (I will provide a list of books I own so we can have a common ground of reference) where a nightbane will out-perform every other character class in Rifts. Please provide page numbers of your references.

The relevant books I have for reference;
Rifts Main Book
Nightbane RPG
Rifts Conversion Book One
NB: Between the Shadows
NB: Through the Glass Darkly

If there is another source and I have it on hand, I will consider it. However, I will have to dismiss any evidence from a source I do no have access to due to the fact that I am obviously unable to review it myself.

If this seems unreasonable to you, then remember this; YOU made the extraordinary claim (nightbane are overpowered and broken in Rifts), therefore YOU must provide the evidence for your claim.

Rhomphaia on p107 of the NB MB Creating Talents section. infers that even a "weak" nightbane, subject to DM aproval, can create Talents that are very powerful. don't get me wrong in thinking that i support Rallan in his attack on NB, i play 2 NB characters in RIFTS, and I run NB myself. this is just for your information.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The same place every other PC with a weaksauce "Um... I guess he fell through a Rift?" excuse for a backstory gets them: he's either allowed them during chargen or the GM gives him the opportunity to acquire them. I mean we are talking about Nightbanes as PCs here, so if anything it would be more artificially limiting to assume that they don't have access to MDC gear. Plus y'know, there's this thing called Darkwhip, which doesn't have a damage cap and which can do guaranteed one-hit-kills on anyone in body armor (and destroy giant mecha in under a round) if a Nightbane feels like blowing a significant chunk of his PPE to thoroughly own a fight.

I ain't the one who's taking a ridiculous position here, since I'm not the one trying to argue that Nightbane PCs don't outclass virtually every class in Rifts.

Darkwhip actually does have a damage cap, there is no damage chart that I have seen listing the damage for supernatural strength beyond 60 which means the talent is really capped at 1d6x10 damage per normal attack

There is a chart for Supernatural Strength in the Dimension Book: Skryapers that has rules for PS increasing indefinately, which is part of Three Galaxies (Although it focuses specifically on a world with HU style superpowers and no FTL technology yet)

[Jedrious]

The same place every other PC with a weaksauce "Um... I guess he fell through a Rift?" excuse for a backstory gets them: he's either allowed them during chargen or the GM gives him the opportunity to acquire them. I mean we are talking about Nightbanes as PCs here, so if anything it would be more artificially limiting to assume that they don't have access to MDC gear. Plus y'know, there's this thing called Darkwhip, which doesn't have a damage cap and which can do guaranteed one-hit-kills on anyone in body armor (and destroy giant mecha in under a round) if a Nightbane feels like blowing a significant chunk of his PPE to thoroughly own a fight.

I ain't the one who's taking a ridiculous position here, since I'm not the one trying to argue that Nightbane PCs don't outclass virtually every class in Rifts.

Darkwhip actually does have a damage cap, there is no damage chart that I have seen listing the damage for supernatural strength beyond 60 which means the talent is really capped at 1d6x10 damage per normal attack

There is a chart for Supernatural Strength in the Dimension Book: Skryapers that has rules for PS increasing indefinately, which is part of Three Galaxies (Although it focuses specifically on a world with HU style superpowers and no FTL technology yet)

Which page number, the only one I see is on 157 and doesn't go for indefinately, merely up to 70...

[TechnoGothic]

on the contrary, it's reasonable to expect that (initially, at least) a nightbane won't be familiar with rifts radios, rifts computers, or even rifts vehicles.

you really think the basic technology for those isn't going to change in 90 years of technological progress followed by a couple hundred years of dark ages followed by ~100 years of recovery?

a lot of basic devices will not necessarily operate on the same principle by that time. some will, but a lot won't. until the nightbane has had time to adjust, i figure he'll probably be pretty frustrated.

(don't believe me? find someone who hasn't used cell phones over the past 15 years. hand them a smart phone and tell them to make a phone call. watch them stare at it blankly for a while. ultimately, you'll probably have to walk them through the process. now imagine that instead of 15 years, it was 90 years. and then people lost everything, and had to rebuild from scratch or from what they can salvage. then fast forward 300+ years. you really think that nightbane is going to have an in-depth understanding of even *basic* 2098 technology?).

Quoted For TRUTH !!
Cause I for one have never used a cell phone myself. Friend gave me one two weeks ago as a gift. Yeah, i'm still trying to figure it out. I turn to my friend, told him i just want to make a dang phone call, he told me to speak into the phone and tell who i wanted to call. He preprogrammed several numbers for me thank goodness.
YES, i do not have the Skill : SMART PHONE base 50%, so i recieve a -25% to working it. LOL.
So far i'm using it mostly as a camera to take pictures.

[TechnoGothic]

on the contrary, it's reasonable to expect that (initially, at least) a nightbane won't be familiar with rifts radios, rifts computers, or even rifts vehicles.

you really think the basic technology for those isn't going to change in 90 years of technological progress followed by a couple hundred years of dark ages followed by ~100 years of recovery?

a lot of basic devices will not necessarily operate on the same principle by that time. some will, but a lot won't. until the nightbane has had time to adjust, i figure he'll probably be pretty frustrated.

(don't believe me? find someone who hasn't used cell phones over the past 15 years. hand them a smart phone and tell them to make a phone call. watch them stare at it blankly for a while. ultimately, you'll probably have to walk them through the process. now imagine that instead of 15 years, it was 90 years. and then people lost everything, and had to rebuild from scratch or from what they can salvage. then fast forward 300+ years. you really think that nightbane is going to have an in-depth understanding of even *basic* 2098 technology?).

Which makes a Nightbane about as handicapped as any other dimensional traveller from a world that's less technologically advanced than Rifts Earth.

Except that he's already familiar with the concept of dimensional travel and the danger posed by demons. And he's got enough superpowers and MDC to beat virtually anything wimpier than a Cosmo-Knight in a standup fight.

Dude tell that to a player of mine whose Nightbane rolled only Addition Eyes, and rolled "1" extra eye. Everything else is Base Nightbane. Most of Attributes were 10-12 at best in fascade.

My group does not "cheat" we roll 3d6. We keep what we roll. Modified by OCC/RCC requirements.

Yeah the Three Eyed Nightbane with like 100 mdc is such a muchkin character. Not really. Mega-Juicer level-ish at best, which is not that powerful to be honest.

[TechnoGothic]

Didn't RDC introduce Nightbane whose Fascade could be Elfs, Dwarven, Orcs, and so on ? Usually SDC creatures only right ?

Myself, I use NB-MB's Rifts Conversion Rules.

Yeah, Nightbane are not Ultra powerful by default. They CAN be ultra powerful, but they can also be Low Powered by Rifts standards. Most will be Moderate Powered in level.
My group focuses Talents based on the Concept of the morphus, so if something does not mesh witht he concept well, we usually don't allow it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Usually SDC creatures only right ? The facade can only appear to be a SDC being, Yes.

[TechnoGothic]

Yes, NB can come to rifts earth and can be native to RE. The better rifts conversion notes are in the NB MB. The ones in the RDC are munckin.

Just reviewed the R-DC version again.
Actually the R-DC version is Weaker, cause it has less Tables to roll on, and Only allows you to Roll Once for Morphus Appearance Characteristics unless the sub-table allows you to have 2 or 3 features on that same table.
The Big Difference is Healing. Fascade Heals at 10 SDC/HP a turn. Morphus heals 2d6+2 MDC per turn. Sometimes you heal slower than normal, others much faster than normal. 4-14 MDC per turn. Both versions SDC/HP becomes MDC in a rifts setting. R-DC allows other SDC Races to become Nightbane, ehh, does not mater really.

I'll stick to Nightbane Mainbook. Fascade does not heal faster than normal. Morphus heals 10 SDC/HP per turn.

[JMHutchins]

I read in one of the Palladium books (not even going to try to remember which, but I think it might have been one of the HU ones) about "balanced groups". In my opinion, they don't exist in almost every Palladium setting. True, I mainly play/run Heroes Unlimited, Rifts, Recon, and Nightbane, but I can see where this would hold true to most settings. I'm going to use HU for my example because I run it the most.

Take a group of players and tell them you're running a superhero game. Let them sit in a room and chat about the characters they would like to play. I give out a little teaser of some of the basic storylines I have planned (without giving away too much) and I let them talk out their characters. Then we roll them up. Invariably we get at least one powerhouse (the power-gamer of our group), one skill-based type with hardly any real combat abilities, one jack-of-all-trades but master of none, and usually one character who is potent, but not as powerful as our tank. When it comes down to fights, I mix up the bad guys. One baddie might be a powerhouse while the next might have a glass jaw but is cunning in other ways (think the Joker, attacking where you're weak and not really able to mix it up with a good fighter). The group I named above would have the powerhouse and possibly the potent characters mixing it up, but the other two would get splattered by an opponent that could mix it up with our heavy hitters. You have to play smarter, not harder in such cases.

Batman is a member of a league of heroes that far outshine him in abilities, yet he makes himself useful in other ways. HU, Nightbane, Rifts... none of them are truly balanced. They don't need to be because the world isn't. Its rare you should ever run across someone that will be a perfact match for you in a fight. Your foe will almost always be far more or far less powerful than you. Its your job to figure out if you can handle it and act accordingly. In my games, if you don't find out about someone before you attack them, then you get what you deserve. If a superhero with non-combat abilities and Hand to Hand: Basic runs up to a guy with metal skin and tries to punch him, that poor bastard is going to get hammered - hard! I tell all of my players from the start that not every bad guy is meant to be fought by any PC. Some bad guys are designed to be a good match for one PC while others are a good match for just about anyone. If you HAVE to fight someone without benefit of at least a little pre-fight intelligence gathering, then players would be best suited fighting very defensively until they have a better grasp of their opponent's power level and skill. Should be common sense.

If you play a character who is one of the Ready, Fire, Aim types, then they are going to have a lot of problems in a well-ran Palladium game. KS and the crew designed their settings to be different than D&D which focuses on game balance (which I personally find to be a joke - game balance, I mean). I've personally ran campaigns where I had a superhero PC with Supernatural Strength and Alter Physical Structure: Metal in the same group with another PC who had a 15 PS and no real attacking powers. They worked perfectly together. The lesser powered character had Nightcrawler-like abilities where he was a stealth machine. He would scout out places and was a master of infiltration and information gathering, which he would relate to his more powerful buddy. Metal dude would then tear through the places we needed him to, ripping into the bad guys and making a path for the rest of us to follow and mop up. Everyone had their place in the group. Few groups in comics, movies, or literature were "balanced". There are always members more powerful than the others in any kind of group: Galdalf (LotR), Thor (Avengers), Superman (JLA), Colossus (X-Men), Spock (Star Trek), Luke Skywalker (Star Wars), Hyde (League of Extraordinary Gentlemen).

I set that expactation with my players from the start and I've never really seen an issue with it. Last time we played Rifts, we had a renegade Glitter Girl, a Ninja Juicer, a Lord Magus, a Full-Conversion Cyborg, and a Mind Melter in the group. The GG and Borg were our main heavy hitters while the Juicer was mainly our stealth/hit & run expert, and the Magus and MM were our artillery. It can be argued which of them was the most powerful, but in truth it started off being the GG then shifted after some level gains to the Lord Magus. None of the party ever resented anyone who shined brighter then the others. They all knew their place and worked well together. It wasn't until they foolishly went into the Vampire Kingdoms and picked a fight with a few Master Vampires that the poo really hit the fan. LOL.

My main advice - don't focus on "balance". Its an impossibility. Focus instead on having fun and telling a good story.

[omega2672]

My main advice - don't focus on "balance". Its an impossibility. Focus instead on having fun and telling a good story.

Thank god somebody other than the group of guys I game with and myself understasnds the true essence of gameinng!
I give you kudos and a bag of Dorritos for laying it out for others to hopefully understand.

[Nightmask]

My main advice - don't focus on "balance". Its an impossibility. Focus instead on having fun and telling a good story.

Thank god somebody other than the group of guys I game with and myself understasnds the true essence of gameinng!
I give you kudos and a bag of Dorritos for laying it out for others to hopefully understand.

Unfortunately a LOT of people simply can't understand that, sadly. They come up with a bewildering array of justifications for various 'no really you have to be like this to be balanced!' silliness, and complete ignore even the most basic 'just look at this, it's obvious that it's not balanced' examples placed to them. Far more obsessed with some arcane idea of balance and 'no one gets anything I think is more than I got!' than actually just playing and enjoying the game.