Shooting down missiles.

[Grug]

Hello, I just started running a Rifts game(I'm a long time PFRPG gamemaster), and when we were playing a PC. Wanted to shoot down some missiles instead of dodging them. I knew there was a rule for it. But then noticed there was no modifiers to do it. To me this just seems strange. So I had the PC just use the natural die roll. I was just looking for other peoples view on this. Would you allow bonuses to strike? Or do you believe there should be negatives to hit?

[Killer Cyborg]

Technically, there should be a penalty for the speed that the missiles travel, since there are no rules stating them as an exception.

RUE 361
Target is moving: -1 to strike, -1 additional per 50 miles per hour beyond 20 mph, and -1 for evasive action.

The slowest short range missile travels at (RUE 363) 200 mph.
Edit:
-1 for the first 70 mph, -2 more for the rest.
The fastest mini-missile travels at 650 mph.
-1 for the first 70, -11 for the rest.

From there, the speeds only increase.
The slowest Medium Range Missile is 1000 mph.
The slowest Long Range Missile is 1400 mph.

BUT I'm guessing that it's safe to assume that these penalties are not intended to apply, that the rules for shooting missiles on p. 364 of RUE supercede all other penalties and bonuses from normal combat.

[Damian Magecraft]

Technically, there should be a penalty for the speed that the missiles travel, since there are no rules stating them as an exception.

RUE 361
Target is moving: -1 to strike, -1 additional per 50 miles per hour beyond 20 mph, and -1 for evasive action.

The slowest short range missile travels at (RUE 363) 200 mph.
-1 for the first 50 mph, -7 more for the rest.
The fastest mini-missile travels at 650 mph.
-1 for the first 50, -30 for the rest.

From there, the speeds only increase.
The slowest Medium Range Missile is 1000 mph.
The slowest Long Range Missile is 1400 mph.

BUT I'm guessing that it's safe to assume that these penalties are not intended to apply, that the rules for shooting missiles on p. 364 of RUE supercede all other penalties and bonuses from normal combat.

Math does not compute... on 200mph i calculate a -1 for the first 50 and -3 for the rest at 200mph, -7 would be for around 400mph...
and for 650mph its only a -13 total -1 for the first 50 and -12 for the rest...
That aside... I agree that it is most likely safe to assume that the rules on 364 supercede.

[Grug]

Math does not compute... on 200mph i calculate a -1 for the first 50 and -3 for the rest at 200mph

I think you misread it. It is -7. I believe you are thinking it is -1 for every 50 over. I was thinking about using the, -1 to strike, -1 additional per 50 miles per hour beyond 20 mph. But I agree that I do not think that was there intention. But when you look on p. 364 in the RUE, It just says you can shoot down missiles without giving any modifers.

[Damian Magecraft]

Math does not compute... on 200mph i calculate a -1 for the first 50 and -3 for the rest at 200mph

I think you misread it. It is -7. I believe you are thinking it is -1 for every 50 over. I was thinking about using the, -1 to strike, -1 additional per 50 miles per hour beyond 20 mph. But I agree that I do not think that was there intention. But when you look on p. 364 in the RUE, It just says you can shoot down missiles without giving any modifers.

no the math is still off... I can account for all but 2 of the negatives... I was askin KC to clarify it fot me.

[Killer Cyborg]

Technically, there should be a penalty for the speed that the missiles travel, since there are no rules stating them as an exception.

RUE 361
Target is moving: -1 to strike, -1 additional per 50 miles per hour beyond 20 mph, and -1 for evasive action.

The slowest short range missile travels at (RUE 363) 200 mph.
-1 for the first 50 mph, -7 more for the rest.
The fastest mini-missile travels at 650 mph.
-1 for the first 50, -30 for the rest.

From there, the speeds only increase.
The slowest Medium Range Missile is 1000 mph.
The slowest Long Range Missile is 1400 mph.

BUT I'm guessing that it's safe to assume that these penalties are not intended to apply, that the rules for shooting missiles on p. 364 of RUE supercede all other penalties and bonuses from normal combat.

Math does not compute... on 200mph i calculate a -1 for the first 50 and -3 for the rest at 200mph, -7 would be for around 400mph...
and for 650mph its only a -13 total -1 for the first 50 and -12 for the rest...
That aside... I agree that it is most likely safe to assume that the rules on 364 supercede.

Yeah, I was tired, and my math got screwy.
I think I was going -1 per 20 mph instead of -1 per 50 mph over 20 mph.
It should be fixed.

[Grug]

lol wow that was a fail... Sorry Damian. That I said you misread it when it was I that did I was thinking it was -1 for every 20 over 50.

[jedi078]

My houese rules for shooting down missiles

Shooting down missiles:
Missiles are -10 to shoot down before strike bonuses are brought in to play if using lasers or non-high explosive ammunition.
Missiles are -5 to shoot down before strike bonuses are brought in to play if using high explosive ammunition (HEAP does not apply), high explosive missiles or plasma missiles.
There is no penalty to shoot down missiles if using Air Burst Munitions or a fragmentation missile(s).
Note: If you hit the missile you 'kill' it. No need to roll damage.

[Beatmeclever]

Questions like this always remind me just how slow missiles move in PB. IRL, the AIM-9, for example, travels at 850mps (Mach 1.7 - 2.5).

This article is my reference for those who need it.

You don't shoot a target that small and fast down, you run, you bob and weave, you jink and jive, you pray you are far enough away from it when it detonates that it doesn't damage anything vital. Something moving at 200 mph is easy pickings by comparison.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Spray bursting at something beyond the missiles, and the missiles turn out to be innocent the bystanders that get hit.

In a IRL game one of the other players shooting at the bad guys that were standing around my char and my char kept getting hit. Finally I said "shoot at my char so you will hit the bad guys."

[glitterboy2098]

since the rules for shooting missiles on page 364 don't mention bonuses or penalties in any fashion, merely how many chances most players would have to try and details on missile fratercide from taking down one of the volley, it is safe to say that all other standard to strike rules apply.
including moving target penalties.

my suggestion is to let any thing listed as point defense or anti-missile in it's primary or secondary purpose on a vehicle ignore target movement modifiers when employed against missiles.

[glitterboy2098]

shooting down minimissiles, which is the type most likely to be encountered in most game, is hard but possible, even with a normal non-augmented character. augmented characters find it much easier.

shooting down an SRM is rather harder, but still doable.

MRM's and LRM's are extremely difficult without a dedicated system for it, due to their speed. doing it 'freehand' basically need a nat20 even for augmented characters.

MM's and SRM's have short enough ranges that you basically get one chance to try. MRM's and LRM's, if fired from beyond visial range, generally will take several melees (several minutes for some of the longer ranged LRM's) to reach their targets, so if you have a sensor, like radar, able to detect them, you should get multiple chances to try. though the limits of ones sensor range would factor in here.

the main thing is to take whatever approach you pick and apply reason to it. if you ignore the target movement penalties for anti-missile shots, missiles become much easier to shoot down, and would thus be less likely to be fired from long distances away, instead being saved for up close where there is less time for the enemy to react. if you do apply the target movement penalties, you need to ensure there is some way to either make shooting them down easier (like my suggestion of dedicated anti-missile targeting for appropriate vehicle weapons) or avoiding them (jammers, chaff, flares, and so on that either give you a chance to make the missiles miss you or make you harder to target with missiles)

personally, i go the "the penalties apply" and i add dedicated anti-missle targeting and anti-missile countermeasures to things. this makes the feel a bit closer to real combat, and makes for a more interesting enviroment. that said, it is less 'super-heroic' in feel. but i prefer RIFTS to be a bit grittier myself, and less comic-booky.

[G]

KC commented on short range missiles.

The two most common mini missiles (which is what I see used most in games) are AP 1400mph & Plasma 1200mph. Since both only have a range of 1 mile, they can travel that distance in 2.56 seconds or 3 seconds. You would be trying to shoot at something the size of a coke can traveling at about mach 2...no I don't think you should be able to shoot it down.

It gets even less likely that you would be able to shoot down mini missiles when you are not shooting at maximum range. If it takes one second for them to hit you at mach 2, and you don't know when they will launch them...

[glitterboy2098]

for referance:
taken from a gateway to the megaverse thread.. the original topic was on why dodging more than 4 missiles should be allowed.

a few comments to back up some of the missile statements i made.

RUE: pg 362
"Note: All missiles always strike the main body"

RUE: pg 363
"Direct Hit. The actual target struck by a grenade or missile is at the Epicenter of the explosion and tales full damage from a direct hit.

RUE: pg 364
"Dodging Missiles. Dodging a missile or a missile volley is basically the same as a hand to hand combat dodge, basically the character needs to move to get out of the way and/or dive under protective cover.".............."HOWEVER, the character must run or dive out of the missile's blast radius to completely escape taking any damage."....."A small blast radius under 12 feet (3.6m) can be escaped with a single dodge action."


so basically, yes, you are shooting to impact the target, and dodging missiles still doesn't escape all damage in most cases. though it just puts you in the blast radius taking half damage, which can be reduced by rolling with impact...

so there is little reason not to allow a character to dodge 4 or more missiles.

as for shooting missiles down, here is the main problems. you can't hit them.
the penalties for shooting a moving target are on RUE pg361. summarized:
-1 for moving, with an additional minus one for every 50mpf it is moving over an initial 20mph.

so that means that missiles have the following penalties to be shot at:

Minimissile(speed): Penalty
------------------------------------------
HE, Frag, Smoke (500mph): -11
AP (1400mph): -29
Plasma (1200mph): -25

SRM's(speed): penalty
------------------------------------------
HE, Plasma (500mph): -11
Frag (450mph): -10
AP (650mph): -14
Smoke (300mph): -7
Fire-Retardant (200mph): -5

MRM's(speed): penalty
------------------------------------------
HE, Multi (1200mph): -25
Frag, Smoke (1000mph): -21
Plasma (1400mph): -29
AP (1600mph): -33

LRM's (speed): penalty
------------------------------------------
HE, AP, proton, Nuke (2010mph): -41
Frag, Plasma (1400mph): -29


so basically, unless your a munched out juicer, or roll a natural 20, you generally will not be able to hit missiles in flight. and since they move so fast, you will only get the one shot to try once they enter your own weapons range. (even a HE minimissile, at 500mph, moves at .138 miles per second, meaning it covers it's half mile range in only 4 seconds. which means only 1 melee attack. maybe 2, if your some highpowered out juicer with 10+ attacks...)

[Akashic Soldier]

And here I was just going to let players use their firearms to "parry" missiles with a -2 and say that if the weapon didn't do enough damage to destroy the missile it was thrown off course and could arbitrarily cause massive collateral damage. lol

[the Captain]

for referance:
taken from a gateway to the megaverse thread.. the original topic was on why dodging more than 4 missiles should be allowed.

a few comments to back up some of the missile statements i made.

RUE: pg 362
"Note: All missiles always strike the main body"

RUE: pg 363
"Direct Hit. The actual target struck by a grenade or missile is at the Epicenter of the explosion and tales full damage from a direct hit.

RUE: pg 364
"Dodging Missiles. Dodging a missile or a missile volley is basically the same as a hand to hand combat dodge, basically the character needs to move to get out of the way and/or dive under protective cover.".............."HOWEVER, the character must run or dive out of the missile's blast radius to completely escape taking any damage."....."A small blast radius under 12 feet (3.6m) can be escaped with a single dodge action."


so basically, yes, you are shooting to impact the target, and dodging missiles still doesn't escape all damage in most cases. though it just puts you in the blast radius taking half damage, which can be reduced by rolling with impact...

so there is little reason not to allow a character to dodge 4 or more missiles.

as for shooting missiles down, here is the main problems. you can't hit them.
the penalties for shooting a moving target are on RUE pg361. summarized:
-1 for moving, with an additional minus one for every 50mpf it is moving over an initial 20mph.

so that means that missiles have the following penalties to be shot at:

Minimissile(speed): Penalty
------------------------------------------
HE, Frag, Smoke (500mph): -11
AP (1400mph): -29
Plasma (1200mph): -25

SRM's(speed): penalty
------------------------------------------
HE, Plasma (500mph): -11
Frag (450mph): -10
AP (650mph): -14
Smoke (300mph): -7
Fire-Retardant (200mph): -5

MRM's(speed): penalty
------------------------------------------
HE, Multi (1200mph): -25
Frag, Smoke (1000mph): -21
Plasma (1400mph): -29
AP (1600mph): -33

LRM's (speed): penalty
------------------------------------------
HE, AP, proton, Nuke (2010mph): -41
Frag, Plasma (1400mph): -29


so basically, unless your a munched out juicer, or roll a natural 20, you generally will not be able to hit missiles in flight. and since they move so fast, you will only get the one shot to try once they enter your own weapons range. (even a HE minimissile, at 500mph, moves at .138 miles per second, meaning it covers it's half mile range in only 4 seconds. which means only 1 melee attack. maybe 2, if your some highpowered out juicer with 10+ attacks...)

That's a NICE summery, I'm probably going to add that to my combat fact sheet for future games, it looks mighty useful.

On a side note, I always run a house rule that only characters on initiative count 1-5 have the level of situational awareness to react to something like that. Everyone on initiative count 6 and up are SOL, and can only dodge if applicable.

[G]

I think you are missing the missile size penalty for mini missiles and short range missiles.
Minis should be about -10, and SRMs about -8 (about the same size as someone's head).

[glitterboy2098]

I think you are missing the missile size penalty for mini missiles and short range missiles.
Minis should be about -10, and SRMs about -8 (about the same size as someone's head).

most would count as just -4 for a small target, but since there is no official mention of said penalty applying to missiles, i don't count it. frankly, i think its like adding insult to injury.

[Jerell]

I agree that shooting down a missile should be extremely hard in most circumstances. I'd think you would need special intercepter missiles, or something like a CIWS. Or dedicated, guided anti-air at the very least, like the Radar-X from Robotech. Or perhaps a badass psy/gunslinger....