Lunar Rifts

[Nightmask]

It is a giant, sprawling, underground metropolis that houses nearly 100,000 inhabitants and is the home of the Cyberworks Aerospace Network. The Level of technology is unsurpassed by any in the Zone or on Earth.

If this wouldn't make the moon valuable to the Splugoth -- what would?

While that's not accurate anymore (the Megaversal Legion certainly surpasses them and ARCHIE-3 likely does too ) it would make them attractive to some but not necessarily that interesting to the Splugorth who likely have equal or better at least for what technology would be obvious from the rift area. They aren't going to have an idea of acquiring information like used to create the Moonbase ARCHIE system that would motivate a real reason for an invasion. Just because we know they have that level of technology there's no reason to think Atlantis will ever learn about it.

[Akashic Soldier]

It is a giant, sprawling, underground metropolis that houses nearly 100,000 inhabitants and is the home of the Cyberworks Aerospace Network. The Level of technology is unsurpassed by any in the Zone or on Earth.

If this wouldn't make the moon valuable to the Splugoth -- what would?

While that's not accurate anymore (the Megaversal Legion certainly surpasses them and ARCHIE-3 likely does too ) it would make them attractive to some but not necessarily that interesting to the Splugorth who likely have equal or better at least for what technology would be obvious from the rift area. They aren't going to have an idea of acquiring information like used to create the Moonbase ARCHIE system that would motivate a real reason for an invasion. Just because we know they have that level of technology there's no reason to think Atlantis will ever learn about it.

Why is that no longer true? (Is there a book of retcons I dont know about?)

[Nightmask]

It is a giant, sprawling, underground metropolis that houses nearly 100,000 inhabitants and is the home of the Cyberworks Aerospace Network. The Level of technology is unsurpassed by any in the Zone or on Earth.

If this wouldn't make the moon valuable to the Splugoth -- what would?

While that's not accurate anymore (the Megaversal Legion certainly surpasses them and ARCHIE-3 likely does too ) it would make them attractive to some but not necessarily that interesting to the Splugorth who likely have equal or better at least for what technology would be obvious from the rift area. They aren't going to have an idea of acquiring information like used to create the Moonbase ARCHIE system that would motivate a real reason for an invasion. Just because we know they have that level of technology there's no reason to think Atlantis will ever learn about it.

Why is that no longer true? (Is there a book of retcons I dont know about?)

It's no longer true because there are people on Rifts Earth that have tech that well exceeds what's on the Moon or in space in general like the Megaversal Legion. As new books have come along they've retconned things or revealed stuff not known at the time MiO came out. It doesn't mean they aren't still up there but they aren't at the very top; the ML has Dakar technology which is far ahead of even Phase World and ARCHIE-3 acquired on top of its Golden Age tech which was already 50 years ahead of anything on Rifts Earth in current times the technology (some at least) from the Mechanoids which puts ARCHIE-3 at least a century ahead of just about everyone else if not moreso.

[Akashic Soldier]

Hmm... well the mechanoids aren't on Earth (really) and neither are the ML (really) they are both space-faring cultures that are basicly a non-entity on Rifts earth.

However, if we are to take it literally that means... unless these books say otherwise... the moon folks have better tech than them.

[Nightmask]

Hmm... well the mechanoids aren't on Earth (really) and neither are the ML (really) they are both space-faring cultures that are basicly a non-entity on Rifts earth.

However, if we are to take it literally that means... unless these books say otherwise... the moon folks have better tech than them.

Uh no, the ML is definitely on Earth and ARCHIE-3 is on Earth with tech at least 50-100 years ahead of the rest of the planet in general. Seeing as they exist then the statement in MiO is no longer valid, because the CAN Republic can't have tech ahead of the Mechanoids or the ML because Rifts Earth is centuries behind such powers as we see in Phase World's average level and the ML and Mechanoids are ahead of them. Basic math.

[azazel1024]

The splugorth have access to Phase world tech, though they don't seem to actively use much of it. That is far and away centuries more advanced for most of it than 99% of the tech on Rifts Earth and well beyond anything the folks on the Moon would have. So, so, I doubt the level of tech on the Moon would particularly interest the Splugorth and they wouldn't have a way to know about it.

[Akashic Soldier]

Hmm... well the mechanoids aren't on Earth (really) and neither are the ML (really) they are both space-faring cultures that are basicly a non-entity on Rifts earth.

However, if we are to take it literally that means... unless these books say otherwise... the moon folks have better tech than them.

Uh no, the ML is definitely on Earth and ARCHIE-3 is on Earth with tech at least 50-100 years ahead of the rest of the planet in general. Seeing as they exist then the statement in MiO is no longer valid, because the CAN Republic can't have tech ahead of the Mechanoids or the ML because Rifts Earth is centuries behind such powers as we see in Phase World's average level and the ML and Mechanoids are ahead of them. Basic math.

But if these are phase world entities then they're on another level all together -- they're space-faring entities -- if they were on Rifts earth according to this the Moon guys would have at least their level of technology. Since the only real examples of tech we see from them is the long range mecha control who knows what they actually have at their disposal. It is strongly implied they can do things other people believe is impossible. I think its safe to say honestly that unless it is stated elsewhere the book is accurate and until corrected or proven otherwise by another canonical source the Moonanites have better tech than anyone else on earth period.

This could be taken to mean that phase world tech is not considered because it is an off-world technology and its use/availability on earth is not sufficient to use it as a comparison or it could be taken to mean that the Moonanites have seen your phase world technologies... and frankly, they're not impressed.

[azazel1024]

If you want to play your games that way, that is fine. However, proven instances where their tech is far behind

AI - ARCHIE on the moon is not a living entity. It is as best a really advance neural net AI. Phase world (tech Splugorth has access to) AI is at least as advanced in smaller packages (Machine people are super advanced living AI at least on the level of EARTH ARCHIE if not beyond).

Genetics - The Moonies are "scared" by low gravity, unable to withstand Earth levels of gravity. Phase world most certainly has the tech level to manipulate genetics so that low G would not affect a person or their offspring preventing them from entering higher G worlds.

Space travel - CG drives are massively more advanced than traction drives or other propulsion sources

FTL - Doesn't exist for the moon colony or Rifts space, enough said

Weapon power level - Phase world weapons are significantly more powerful

Force fields - The lunar colony has no acknoweldged force fields, which Rifts Earth companies/gov'ts have in limited supplies, Phase world/Naruni/Splugorth have radically more advanced force fields (and variable force fields)

Armor - relative levels of MDC appear to be higher in Phase world armor, bots and power armor than lunar/rift's space levels

Fusion power and antimatter power generation - Yeah, Phase world has it, the moonies don't

Gravity manipulation - Just like the whole CG thing, Phase world tech has artifical gravity, the moonies deffinitely don't.

So, the later moonies have seen the phase world tech, and are not impressed...well that deffinitely could not be the case unless they are hiding all of their worlds more advanced tech REAL well. If they were that advanced, they would have swatted away KLS and Freedom station long ago, let alone the other space stations pissing them off.

Just for Rifts tech, force fields exist and are much more advanced with Triax and Japan (Earth powers). Japan has a nascessent "cloaking field" on one of its bots, which the Moon doesn't seem to have either. The CS appears much more advanced in genetics manipulation than anything the CAN republic has/had. Triax and the NGR seem much more advanced in bionics, cybernetics, weapons tech, etc.

So, yeah CAN might have more advance stuff, but none of it is evident. A big issue is that MiO was release very early in Rifts, and no updates/new books since then for Rift's space.

Another issue you run in to is one of population and resources. The CS, NGR, etc have populations many dozens of times bigger than even the CAN republic and access to some resources much more easily than the CAN republic. Most else being equal, this is going to mean that the CS, Triax/NGR, etc are going to innovate much more rapidly than the CAN republic or the space stations will.

So realistically, tech level on Earth would be much higher, though maybe not spacefaring tech as they haven't been working on that. Things like juicers, MOM implants, genetics, robotics, weaponry, computers, cybernetics, etc all should be much more advanced than stuff you'd find from CAN, KLS, etc. Those space colonies retained some of their pre-rifts knowledge, when a lot was lost on Earth. However, on Earth access to resources and significantly larger population, as well as more diverse population and ease of technology diffusion (and imports from other dimensions) would dictate that the Earth population should catch up and surpass the space colonies supposing Rift's space populations are accurate (a few hundred thousand for the CAN in Rifts space, a few tens of thousands for all the rest of the space stations and freebooters).

[Nightmask]

Hmm... well the mechanoids aren't on Earth (really) and neither are the ML (really) they are both space-faring cultures that are basicly a non-entity on Rifts earth.

However, if we are to take it literally that means... unless these books say otherwise... the moon folks have better tech than them.

Uh no, the ML is definitely on Earth and ARCHIE-3 is on Earth with tech at least 50-100 years ahead of the rest of the planet in general. Seeing as they exist then the statement in MiO is no longer valid, because the CAN Republic can't have tech ahead of the Mechanoids or the ML because Rifts Earth is centuries behind such powers as we see in Phase World's average level and the ML and Mechanoids are ahead of them. Basic math.

But if these are phase world entities then they're on another level all together -- they're space-faring entities -- if they were on Rifts earth according to this the Moon guys would have at least their level of technology. Since the only real examples of tech we see from them is the long range mecha control who knows what they actually have at their disposal. It is strongly implied they can do things other people believe is impossible. I think its safe to say honestly that unless it is stated elsewhere the book is accurate and until corrected or proven otherwise by another canonical source the Moonanites have better tech than anyone else on earth period.

This could be taken to mean that phase world tech is not considered because it is an off-world technology and its use/availability on earth is not sufficient to use it as a comparison or it could be taken to mean that the Moonanites have seen your phase world technologies... and frankly, they're not impressed.

Or it could be that MiO came out over 3 years before Phase World and the other world books came out and when it came out they might have been better than those groups on Rifts Earth when that book came out but as everyone can attest to things have been creeping up and various groups with much better technology have been revealed over the years. You're trying to hold as an absolute something that simply isn't. Azazel1024 gives a good list of many things that Phase World societies have that the CAN Republic doesn't which makes sense since the Rifts Earth setting is said to be centuries behind them and would require more than a century to catch up if they can survive that long (and maybe even start surpassing their average).

[Nightmask]

If you want to play your games that way, that is fine. However, proven instances where their tech is far behind

AI - ARCHIE on the moon is not a living entity. It is as best a really advance neural net AI. Phase world (tech Splugorth has access to) AI is at least as advanced in smaller packages (Machine people are super advanced living AI at least on the level of EARTH ARCHIE if not beyond).

Genetics - The Moonies are "scared" by low gravity, unable to withstand Earth levels of gravity. Phase world most certainly has the tech level to manipulate genetics so that low G would not affect a person or their offspring preventing them from entering higher G worlds.

That's probably quite the wallbanger for the AtB setting for the book, with the new AtB complete RPG book they've such envious mastery of genetics that they shouldn't actually have that problem in space. Rifts Earth wasn't anywhere close to that level even though they were pretty impressive.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hmm... well the mechanoids aren't on Earth (really) and neither are the ML (really) they are both space-faring cultures that are basicly a non-entity on Rifts earth.

However, if we are to take it literally that means... unless these books say otherwise... the moon folks have better tech than them.

Yeah... I'd assume that MiO was talking about native Earth factions, not aliens or d-bees.

[Kagashi]

Hmm... well the mechanoids aren't on Earth (really) and neither are the ML (really) they are both space-faring cultures that are basicly a non-entity on Rifts earth.

However, if we are to take it literally that means... unless these books say otherwise... the moon folks have better tech than them.

Yeah... I'd assume that MiO was talking about native Earth factions, not aliens or d-bees.

Obviously Rifts Earth and the aliens and d-bees that roam around it in the 6 source books, 31 world books, and RUE have had the writers attention over the 50+ pages total written on Rifts Space. For the statement to be true...we need the Rifts Space sourcebook.

[Akashic Soldier]

I agree with Kagashi -- however in regard to some of the things azazel1024 and Nightmask have said we know that they don't really see their antigravity situation as a disability. The can easily overcome this with their own Crazies and Juicers but don't see that as a necessary or acceptable process considering the loss. Also as for their genetic technologies being inferior its listed that their Juicer's are so much more advanced than other Juicers that they live five times as long. ARCHIE 7 is more advanced than ARCHIE 3 of Earth (and its not broken too boot it is easily controlled by the government in charge and has no malicious will of its own -- just the way they like it). As for why they haven't wiped out the other space stations when they give them grief -- why doesn't modern America bomb everyone else into the ground until nothing is left? Public opinion is the most heartless and simple answer. The are an intelligent society of VOTERS and where as they don't like people getting too close they're not going to condemn other people to death in cold vacuum, thats not very evolved/PC behavior... I mean not unless they are going to attack first or something...

Now lets address Phase World shall we?

1. Phase World is not EARTH. If certain alien factions have access to the technology it is only rational to think that they are not going to have access to the same high quality material that the military/top scientists are working on in Phase World have (not impossible but not likely) and certainly not on mass. Just look at how the Blackmarket works to figure that one out.
2. Exception Number 2: Phase World races on Earth such as the Splynn. We've seen the motherships that the Splynn have on earth, they're terrifying and they're printed in Rifts Earth official books. This means that the Splynn do have high-end technology that can get past the orbital defenses -- or it means they get in through other means. However I think that this is more an exception than an absolute -- otherwise surely there would be advanced Spaceships whizzing around everywhere and lets face it, there's not.
3. Again I say we do not KNOW what they are capable of but their population limits are EASILY overcome by a reusable military, not only that but their mentally damaged pilots (the last resort) are mech-gods. Do you recall the boosts they get from their bedlam? And since they are compromised mentally already there is NO REASON not to give them M.O.M implants... needless to say a squad of these high level pilots is going to wreak havoc on the battlefield (and they're safe and reusable for the most part). This means so long as they have available mecha they have a standing army of elite troops -- and again, who is to say we've seen the best they've got?

Rationality dictates that if they can observe Earth and have superior sensory equipment to anyone on earth (cannon) than they can see what everyone has and if this is the case (which it is) they have better technology. What is to say that they can't just "scan" our best stuff from the safety of space and reverse engineer it with their own improvements? If they are able to blur the line between magic with their science and do things other space-faring cultures believe is impossible than that is really saying a lot and should not be overlooked just because there are new books with higher MDC vehicles.

As presented in the core material the CAN base on the MOON are a highly advanced society with superior technology to anyone else on earth. That might be "fluff" but that is how they should appear when introduced into a story -- if the story has evolved to the point where every person on earth has the power of a godling their technology level is still defined as "better than anything on earth" not better than somethings, better than ANYTHING. Of course we could ignore this... but that's like ignoring the fact that most CS guys are going to generally be rather xenophobic people. It's part of what they are in the setting and its not about who's laser rifle does the most Mega Damage. Maybe Phase World has better ships and weaponry but Scientists in the Moon Colonies have nearly cracked the anti-life equation?

I guess that is my main argument, like anything we can ignore it -- but until there is a canonical release saying otherwise, anything from a skirmish where they're schooled to a sidebar saying they're sub-par... as they appear written in the book the CAN are a democratic organization with technology that surpasses anything on Rifts Earth.

[Nightmask]

I agree with Kagashi -- however in regard to some of the things azazel1024 and Nightmask have said we know that they don't really see their antigravity situation as a disability. The can easily overcome this with their own Crazies and Juicers but don't see that as a necessary or acceptable process considering the loss. Also as for their genetic technologies being inferior its listed that their Juicer's are so much more advanced than other Juicers that they live five times as long. ARCHIE 7 is more advanced than ARCHIE 3 of Earth (and its not broken too boot it is easily controlled by the government in charge and has no malicious will of its own -- just the way they like it). As for why they haven't wiped out the other space stations when they give them grief -- why doesn't modern America bomb everyone else into the ground until nothing is left? Public opinion is the most heartless and simple answer. The are an intelligent society of VOTERS and where as they don't like people getting too close they're not going to condemn other people to death in cold vacuum, thats not very evolved/PC behavior... I mean not unless they are going to attack first or something...

Uh no, the members of the CAN Republic do see their low-gravity problem as a disability and are resigned to the fact that they can't return to Earth because they've grown up unable to handle much beyond the gravity field of the Moon. They also can't easily overcome it with either the advanced Crazy or Juicer conversion processes, that only helps mitigate some of the problems of low-gravity and brings problems of its own. The longer lifespan of the Juicer isn't a product of their genetics technology (which the space colonies obviously don't have) but of refinements of the drugs and control harness over the centuries.

In regards to the CAN Republic just eliminating the other places if they felt like it, it's because it can't. Whether it's the most society in space or not it's not that advanced compared to the others. Remember they all started at the Golden age of Man tech level, and in space as I pointed out there's no room for them to fall back to some cave man society like happened on Earth they had to hold together and work from there simply because they couldn't fall back and survive. CAN is also isolationist in the extreme much like the US prior to WWII, we were willing to let the world burn as long as it left us alone, only the attack by Japan got us involved before it was too late. The CAN Republic is pretty much the Free Quebec of Space, they just want to be left alone and if you leave them alone they leave you alone.

Now lets address Phase World shall we?

1. Phase World is not EARTH. If certain alien factions have access to the technology it is only rational to think that they are not going to have access to the same high quality material that the military/top scientists are working on in Phase World have (not impossible but not likely) and certainly not on mass. Just look at how the Blackmarket works to figure that one out.

Certain factions that are quite locked in on Rifts Earth do have access to those things however, and do qualify as societies on Rifts Earth. The Megaversal Legion has an entire mini-factory to produce whatever they need and a race of tech-savvy aliens to support them on top of any others they decide to pick up on.

2. Exception Number 2: Phase World races on Earth such as the Splynn. We've seen the motherships that the Splynn have on earth, they're terrifying and they're printed in Rifts Earth official books. This means that the Splynn do have high-end technology that can get past the orbital defenses -- or it means they get in through other means. However I think that this is more an exception than an absolute -- otherwise surely there would be advanced Spaceships whizzing around everywhere and lets face it, there's not.

Except the community in space is quite adamant about not letting anyone get off of Earth into space, and as advanced as the Splynn tech is they'd need to bring an invasion-force level of items to try and get into space which would just provoke a lot of problems the ruler of Atlantis doesn't want.

Rationality dictates that if they can observe Earth and have superior sensory equipment to anyone on earth (cannon) than they can see what everyone has and if this is the case (which it is) they have better technology. What is to say that they can't just "scan" our best stuff from the safety of space and reverse engineer it with their own improvements? If they are able to blur the line between magic with their science and do things other space-faring cultures believe is impossible than that is really saying a lot and should not be overlooked just because there are new books with higher MDC vehicles.

Because watching people doesn't equate to being able to scan something to the molecular level and replicate, and I've no idea where you get the idea that the CAN Republic is blurring the line between magic and technology, they can't even produce artificial gravity which would be of vital importance improving it slightly over time so that everyone would be once again adapted for Earth level gravity conditions as it would improve health and usefulness because those humans are frailer and can't handle the kind of combat conditions a healthy, one-g raised pilot can.

As presented in the core material the CAN base on the MOON are a highly advanced society with superior technology to anyone else on earth. That might be "fluff" but that is how they should appear when introduced into a story -- if the story has evolved to the point where every person on earth has the power of a godling their technology level is still defined as "better than anything on earth" not better than somethings, better than ANYTHING. Of course we could ignore this... but that's like ignoring the fact that most CS guys are going to generally be rather xenophobic people. It's part of what they are in the setting and its not about who's laser rifle does the most Mega Damage. Maybe Phase World has better ships and weaponry but Scientists in the Moon Colonies have nearly cracked the anti-life equation?

I guess that is my main argument, like anything we can ignore it -- but until there is a canonical release saying otherwise, anything from a skirmish where they're schooled to a sidebar saying they're sub-par... as they appear written in the book the CAN are a democratic organization with technology that surpasses anything on Rifts Earth.

You simply give far too much weight to that statement about their level of tech compared to the planet below. Far far more than it has any reason to have. You even supply an example of why it's so ridiculous, that it should somehow always be better than everyone below no matter how much they advance forward for no other reason than 'well it says they're better so they can't ever be anything but better'. Sorry but that's simply not rational or supported by the books. I can only imagine you've some reason to feel like the CAN Republic is special and it stops being special if it has to be accepted that they aren't 'The best EVER!'. Sorry but they aren't. Years later the truth has come out, and it's that the CAN Republic isn't the best, it's been caught up with and exceeded by some down on Earth.

[Akashic Soldier]

I'd actually type up the quotes out of the book that I am looking at right in front of me and write them up but I dont think there is much point honestly. If anyone is interested they can read through the book for themselves and see what is there. Needless to say your opening statement is actually exactly the opposite of what it says (nearly word for word) and I am not really that interested in arguing the point.

You have ignored the fact that they were more advanced and continue to advance while presuming that only Rifts Earth makes scientific advances. You have missed my point and over looked that I said...

That might be "fluff" but that is how they should appear when introduced into a story

And again, actually their Juicer/Crazy process specifically removes the penalties from living in a zero-G environment, breezing over this I see no mention of health related issues or complaints (they are still well-suited to surviving in their lunar environment) and although they can't resettle earth it also does not imply they would want to. Their way of life is safe and preserved where it is. They're a big fish in a small pond and they like it that way.

Also if the ML are such an important and prominent force on Rifts Earth... why is that I have twenty books here in front of me and I have only EVER heard them mentioned on this Forum? And if they have a mini-factory Night that does sort of imply that they don't have a "full-blown factory" which again sort of... implies... that they are either limited by technology level or at the very least production output.

Again, I'll say this... currently until otherwise stated or shown (and cited from its source) the technology level on the moon is superior to that on Earth. Period. That's a fact. The only other race I have seen that was regarded as being able to do things with technology that modern space-faring races would consider magic was The First in Dimension Book 5 and they were the guys that created the universe. Does this mean that I think that is the level of technology that CAN has? Of course not! But its something to seriously consider -- if they're surpassed in game play or whatever of course that's acceptable. If the average kid can run out and grab some Avenger armor GO FOR IT! But as presented I think that they're a valuable ally or fearsome enemy with technologies, military, and abilities that any Alien Intelligence would love to get its tentacles on.

[Nightmask]

I'd actually type up the quotes out of the book that I am looking at right in front of me and write them up but I dont think there is much point honestly. If anyone is interested they can read through the book for themselves and see what is there. Needless to say your opening statement is actually exactly the opposite of what it says (nearly word for word) and I am not really that interested in arguing the point.

You have ignored the fact that they were more advanced and continue to advance while presuming that only Rifts Earth makes scientific advances. You have missed my point and over looked that I said...

That might be "fluff" but that is how they should appear when introduced into a story

I have not ignored that at all, nor have I stated or implied that only Rifts Earth has made advances in fact I've clearly stated that the space colonies have made advances since then courtesy of not having suffered the level of setback that happened on Earth. But they aren't the CS just relocated in space either where 'oh no they have to be better than everyone all the time and can never be exceeded' either. Well except maybe to you, I don't know. You do seem to be ascribing an inordinate amount of weight to a single line of text written long before the majority of the books came out, making it quite ridiculous to think that somehow you have to keep making it out as being equal to Phase World in capability (which is clearly is not) because it would have to be phase world level to exceed everyone on Rifts Earth which is clearly not the case. It's been pointed out quite plainly just how behind Phase World Rifts: Space is so they can't possibly be centuries ahead of everyone on Rifts Earth.

And again, actually their Juicer/Crazy process specifically removes the penalties from living in a zero-G environment, breezing over this I see no mention of health related issues or complaints (they are still well-suited to surviving in their lunar environment) and although they can't resettle earth it also does not imply they would want to. Their way of life is safe and preserved where it is. They're a big fish in a small pond and they like it that way.

You should re-read the text, the space Juicers only get to live twice as long as one on earth, 3 times if they remain in zero gravity and suffer reductions to some of the Juicer bonuses and states quite clearly that the Juicer process was deemed too dangerous to consider a remedy for lack of gravity. The Crazies also suffer reductions to their bonuses, cutting most of their bonuses in half including their SDC bonus and does not negate any of the penalties for long-term exposure to zero-G.

Also if the ML are such an important and prominent force on Rifts Earth... why is that I have twenty books here in front of me and I have only EVER heard them mentioned on this Forum? And if they have a mini-factory Night that does sort of imply that they don't have a "full-blown factory" which again sort of... implies... that they are either limited by technology level or at the very least production output.

No, that's really not what that implies. They have a factory that supplies them with all necessary gear, so they aren't limited by technology level or production output. They don't get more prominence because the writers are interested in putting in their favorites and only include certain things because they don't have a choice (like tossing in mention of the CS just about everywhere).

Again, I'll say this... currently until otherwise stated or shown (and cited from its source) the technology level on the moon is superior to that on Earth. Period. That's a fact. The only other race I have seen that was regarded as being able to do things with technology that modern space-faring races would consider magic was The First in Dimension Book 5 and they were the guys that created the universe. Does this mean that I think that is the level of technology that CAN has? Of course not! But its something to seriously consider -- if they're surpassed in game play or whatever of course that's acceptable. If the average kid can run out and grab some Avenger armor GO FOR IT! But as presented I think that they're a valuable ally or fearsome enemy with technologies, military, and abilities that any Alien Intelligence would love to get its tentacles on.

No, sorry, that's not a fact. I just can't fathom where you get the idea the CAN republic is that advanced with all the things they can't even begin to do including force fields and manipulate gravity. They can't even begin to match the level of technology at Phase World yet you keep insisting that they must for no other reason than an outdated line of text that requires an absurd amount of 'bury your head in the sand' reasoning to insist it has to hold true and cannot under any circumstance not be true. That line only reflects what the author of the book knew about Rifts Earth at the time, which wasn't much given how little was in print. If you look at the books in print at the time it was true, but later books have made it evident that it's not actually true from what we see of new societies that are around. They can't be superior to people who have Technology that's above what Phase World's seeing as the standard 'because they have to be'. No amount of 'no that line has to be true' is going to make it so when all the books make it clear that it's just not so.

[Akashic Soldier]

Guys, truth be told I was wrong about one thing; Juicers live three times as long (not five). Nightmask was right.

Again, you are taking everything I am saying completely out of context please reread what I am saying. For a starter Phase World is PHASE WORLD, I am not saying this to be mean but I am really... really... struggling to understand what is so difficult to understand about that? If Phase World technology exists on Earth (and is en fact more advanced than Lunar Technologies--which it would SEEM to be by comparison I am not arguing that) than it is an exception to the rule.

For instance... maybe the Splugoth can get some Phase World technology and it kicks ass... but that doesn't mean they can get it easily or on a regular basis, also if you use the C.A.N Republic as they were INTENDED to be used in a story than they appear as an advanced society with technology surpassing that of Rifts earth (and the other space colonies). They were the least damaged by the break down and were able to advance and grow beyond the point when they had first settled the base.

That is their ROLE in the setting as a plot device. You can ignore this. You can also say every kid on earth makes a wish on a star and becomes a Cosmo Knight... you can power down South America! And on the same principal you could power up the C.A.N Republic if you personally don't feel that they are statistically up to filling their role in the setting. That is my main point. This has nothing to do with the Coalition States (but if you are just arguing this because I think that the CS are a well-out fitted and efficient super military that deserved their win than that has nothing to do with any of this.)

I am not stupid enough to realize that the Coalition States outnumber the C.A.N Republic. They're not going to sweep across the universe like locusts... but maybe they can be an ally that could turn the tides against a mechaniod invasion? Maybe they could have a cure for my sisters cancer (they are at least 200 years more advanced in medical science than anyone else on Rifts Earth), maybe they could be convinced to return to Earth or negotiate peace and allow us entry into space... or a million other possibilities, one for every storyteller in the universe...

But what is doing them injustice is having a PC party rock up and find them hovling in a tin-can hole in moon eating fish sticks and speaking fluent yokal. That's someone or something else... that's not the C.A.N Republic. They are a super advanced culture (maybe the last real survivors of pre-rifts culture) who have highly advanced technology that are living in a 0-gravity environment under the guidance of ARCHIE 7 a fully functioning super-computer 4 Upgrades superior to one of the greatest artificial intelligences on Earth -- and its working! Their society is flourishing! They're not going to die off any time soon -- they're still growing, advancing, and progressing as a society.

Also where are the ML from? Because honestly I'd love to read them because right now I honestly think I hate them and I'd like not to think that way. They are constantly getting presented as "the guys that are better than you without trying" whenever they're mentioned and I'd just like to read what they're actually all about. Again though, considering I have never read a single word about them I am going to presume they're a small rather insignificant organization in the grand scale of things on Rifts Earth that are only here so that a PC can play one if he really wants too. Again, that is based on nothing but the material I've seen presented so far from people posting here on this forum.

EDIT: VRRDS might have its risks but it would revolutionize how war is fought if it fell into the hands of the CS or Triax or any one of the various other powerbrokers on Rifts Earth, this is an advanced and valuable technology that (as far as I know) exists nowhere else on Earth/Megaverse and would be of great interest and use to a great many organizations.

[Nightmask]

Guys, truth be told I was wrong about one thing; Juicers live three times as long (not five). Nightmask was right.

Again, you are taking everything I am saying completely out of context please reread what I am saying. For a starter Phase World is PHASE WORLD, I am not saying this to be mean but I am really... really... struggling to understand what is so difficult to understand about that? If Phase World technology exists on Earth (and is en fact more advanced than Lunar Technologies--which it would SEEM to be by comparison I am not arguing that) than it is an exception to the rule.

Not taking anything out of context. You've stated that CAN is supposed to be in your focus on a single line of text always more than a century ahead of everyone else on Rifts Earth, inflating that general comment based on the books at the time into a biblical commandment that 'thou shalt not have anything on Rifts Earth that CAN is not at least a century ahead of'. To hold that to be true then the CAN republic must be running tech better than the standard of Phase World, which is used as the benchmark for advanced technology. Which is wrong. ALL that line meant was that, from what books were out at the time, that CAN was more advanced than those known when the writer wrote MiO.

Also the advanced Juicer only lives TWICE as long, he only gets to enjoy THREE times as long if he lives in a zero-G environment.

For instance... maybe the Splugoth can get some Phase World technology and it kicks ass... but that doesn't mean they can get it easily or on a regular basis, also if you use the C.A.N Republic as they were INTENDED to be used in a story than they appear as an advanced society with technology surpassing that of Rifts earth (and the other space colonies). They were the least damaged by the break down and were able to advance and grow beyond the point when they had first settled the base.

That is their ROLE in the setting as a plot device. You can ignore this. You can also say every kid on earth makes a wish on a star and becomes a Cosmo Knight... you can power down South America! And on the same principal you could power up the C.A.N Republic if you personally don't feel that they are statistically up to filling their role in the setting. That is my main point. This has nothing to do with the Coalition States (but if you are just arguing this because I think that the CS are a well-out fitted and efficient super military that deserved their win than that has nothing to do with any of this.)

I am not stupid enough to realize that the Coalition States outnumber the C.A.N Republic. They're not going to sweep across the universe like locusts... but maybe they can be an ally that could turn the tides against a mechaniod invasion? Maybe they could have a cure for my sisters cancer (they are at least 200 years more advanced in medical science than anyone else on Rifts Earth), maybe they could be convinced to return to Earth or negotiate peace and allow us entry into space... or a million other possibilities, one for every storyteller in the universe...

But what is doing them injustice is having a PC party rock up and find them hovling in a tin-can hole in moon eating fish sticks and speaking fluent yokal. That's someone or something else... that's not the C.A.N Republic. They are a super advanced culture (maybe the last real survivors of pre-rifts culture) who have highly advanced technology that are living in a 0-gravity environment under the guidance of ARCHIE 7 a fully functioning super-computer 4 Upgrades superior to one of the greatest artificial intelligences on Earth -- and its working! Their society is flourishing! They're not going to die off any time soon -- they're still growing, advancing, and progressing as a society.

Sorry but no one's saying anything of the sort, so that's quite a misrepresentation of what's been said. Even if they weren't better than the CS they'd still be a great deal better than some hillbilly in the back woods. They aren't living in a Zero-G environment btw, low gravity isn't no gravity. Low enough to be bad for creatures evolved for 1G but it's not like they're floating in the void of space. They certainly aren't 2 centuries ahead of Rifts Earth when it comes to medical technology, if they were they would have solved the problem of living in low gravity eliminating the penalties caused by them. 2 centuries ahead they'd make the genetics technology of Lone Star or After The Bomb look juvenile in comparison yet obviously they don't.

Also where are the ML from? Because honestly I'd love to read them because right now I honestly think I hate them and I'd like not to think that way. They are constantly getting presented as "the guys that are better than you without trying" whenever they're mentioned and I'd just like to read what they're actually all about. Again though, considering I have never read a single word about them I am going to presume they're a small rather insignificant organization in the grand scale of things on Rifts Earth that are only here so that a PC can play one if he really wants too. Again, that is based on nothing but the material I've seen presented so far from people posting here on this forum.

EDIT: VRRDS might have its risks but it would revolutionize how war is fought if it fell into the hands of the CS or Triax or any one of the various other powerbrokers on Rifts Earth, this is an advanced and valuable technology that (as far as I know) exists nowhere else on Earth/Megaverse and would be of great interest and use to a great many organizations.

The Megaversal Legion is in Rifts: South America 2 and your presumptions would be wrong. They are former US soldiers from a parallel Earth shanghaied by an alien race called the Dakar and used as part of a slave army of soldiers. The Dakar have technology far more advanced than even Phase World is used to seeing and had set up a base in the mountains of South America to operate out of. The soldiers managed with the help of an alien race to break free of the control of the Dakar and make their own way. Insignificant they are not, they are simply not yet involved in things on Rifts Earth because it was only relatively recently that they were freed and they've been so used to operating in other dimensions for so long they just didn't check out the world outside their window and have just started exploring this counterpart to their own Earth.

Meanwhile in regards to the VRRDS system, Triax already has that (look at the Robot Soldier optional OCC starting on page 166 of the first Triax book). They also have transferred intelligence bots (next page), so while the CS might have a use for it Triax already has it (not surprising as Triax is decades if not more ahead of the CS ).

[Akashic Soldier]

Danka.

I'll have to check that all out tomorrow I currently have to learn the Magic system. Blah. lol

[Kagashi]

Also where are the ML from? Because honestly I'd love to read them because right now I honestly think I hate them and I'd like not to think that way. They are constantly getting presented as "the guys that are better than you without trying" whenever they're mentioned and I'd just like to read what they're actually all about. Again though, considering I have never read a single word about them I am going to presume they're a small rather insignificant organization in the grand scale of things on Rifts Earth that are only here so that a PC can play one if he really wants too. Again, that is based on nothing but the material I've seen presented so far from people posting here on this forum.

South America 2 p. 98-121. The Megaversal Legion really have nothing special about them other than the fact they deal a lot of damage and do a lot of damage with their tech. We have MDC power creeped versions of Desert Storm era weapons...but no space ships, no space stations, or really anything special aside their Inertial Shields in the body armor. Where a CS rifle does 4D6, ML rifles deal 1D6x10+10. Where a suit of CS armor has 100 MDC, their heavy armor has 150 and so on. Their armor does have an Inertial Shield which attempts to parry physical attacks on its own, which is pretty cool and unique to the Megaverse akin to Naruni Thermo-Kinetic armor or Arkhon ceramic composite armor. They do have a fairly cool borg which follows the "more MDC/better damage than the rest of Rifts Earth" formula as their regular tech, but aside the Inertial Shields and a pretty powerful regular force field, no other real benefit over just a regular borg (especially since borgs have been pimped up over the years in subsequent books).

The other significant aspect about the ML is they have a blanket statement which give them the ability to recruit pretty much any race from the Conversion Book 1, Phase World (by extension, the PW books printed after SA2 as well), Mindwerks (Gene Splicers? wow), and Scrapers (yep...super heroes). Additionally, they say you can pull from Aliens Unlimited as well (more super heroes). They also have entire units of soldiers that are made up of Mind Melters, Mind Bleeders, Bursters, Psi Stalkers, Temporal Warriors, Shifters (send the demons first, we will mop up later), and Ley Line Walkers. Sure their tech can deal a lot of damage and take a lot of damage, but their real benefit is the versatility the ML offers.

A Rifts Space source book should include the Megaversal Legion space forces.

Again, I'll say this... currently until otherwise stated or shown (and cited from its source) the technology level on the moon is superior to that on Earth. Period. That's a fact...

No, sorry, that's not a fact. I just can't fathom where you get the idea the CAN republic is that advanced with all the things they can't even begin to do including force fields and manipulate gravity. They can't even begin to match the level of technology at Phase World yet you keep insisting that they must for no other reason than an outdated line of text...

Guys, this is the same exact argument folks had with both the Kitanni and Triax tech during the Power Creep years when more and more powerful stuff had been printed since those early books. You guys are both falling back on blanket statements, yet the no kidding source material in each respective book does not back either statement when compared to the rest of the 50 something books in the Rifts environment.

If you have noticed, WB2 was revamped in the post 2006 printings (and some of the tech was raised in power...Sunaji armor now has 130 MDC for example...not sure if WB5 was revamped in the same light, i dont have a new printing yet), and both societies got a second world book (Splynn Dimensional Market and Triax 2) which helps their "superior tech" blanket statements when comparing them to other advances on Rifts Earth (like CWC compared to RMB tech for the Coalition). The bottom line is, both the Megaversal Legion and the Orbital Communities to include the CAN Republic have been ignored over the years and bickering on the internet about blanket statements mentioned in MiO and SA2 will do nothing but boil blood for posters. What we need (dare I say...DEMAND) from Palladium, is RIFTS SPACE. Revisit these societies and bring them both to 110 PA and then we can talk. Because until they do that, you cannot compare a Triax power armor intended for 109 PA with a VRRDS bot intended for 101 PA and expect the "superior tech" statement to stand.

Remember they all started at the Golden age of Man tech level, and in space as I pointed out there's no room for them to fall back to some cave man society like happened on Earth they had to hold together and work from there simply because they couldn't fall back and survive.

Although not related to the topic you guys were talking about, this is exactly why I see no reason why magic could not have evolved in the Orbital Communities. Magic does exist in Rifts Space (read Outcast Stations population breakdown), it just has not been detailed or talked about in the meager 50 pages devoted to the setting because it is very rare. Magic may be rare in space, but Id like to see it detailed...again in a Rifts Space World/Sourcebook. The ability to magically endow somebody with zero G movement or create water and/or air in the vacuum of space would indeed be a very powerful aspect, especially for independents and Outcast station who do not benefit from the superior tech of the other orbital communities and the CAN Republic.

Rifts Space is the answer, and there is obviously a demand for it.

[Nightmask]

Danka.

I'll have to check that all out tomorrow I currently have to learn the Magic system. Blah. lol

If memory serves South America 2 also introduces an alien race that's another faction that the space colonies have to deal with, highly advanced with their own unique 'man I'd love to have that!' technology and retcons MiO's Rifts section slightly as a result.

[Akashic Soldier]

Who else agrees with Kagashi?
On a scale of 1 to 10 what would you rank RIFTS: SPACE?
I feel it would serve as a really solid bridge between the very popular Phase World product line and standard Rifts Earth.

I rate it an 8 on the "urgency" scale. Not a "you must have it to play" level need but with enough fan-hype and setting importance in the community to place it a good 3 points above "I'd buy it because its a Palladium book." I'd like to see Kevin himself write it but I know that won't happen. lol

[azazel1024]

Super advanced yes, more advanced that Earth forces in the areas of life support, space transportation and probably hydroponics/aeroponics almost certainly. However, weapons tech, armor tech, force fields, genetics and a few other areas, they do not appear as advanced or are on parity with the CS, Japan and NGR/Triax. CAN is THE most advanced nation/party in Rift's space, but they are not more advanced, at least in some areas than some of the nations/corps on Rift's Earth, and certainly not as advanced as the Splugorth is the point.

They don't have to be as advanced really. The blockade of Earth is pretty darned effective. As mentioned, it would take a hell of a fleet to punch through it, a force no one on Rifts Earth is currently capable of, or willing to assemble. Only other option is going around the blockade, which would take magic, which the CS, NGR and Japan are not going to do, and the Splugorth don't have the inclination for, for a variety of reasons.

Just because they aren't as advanced doesn't mean they are yokel, shivering in their hand scrapped caves on the moon, barely existing. They ARE a very advanced society on the moon, with a per citizen standard of living and tech level that is at least as advanced or higher than the upper echelon of CS society and probably on par with most NGR or Japanese citizens. That doesn't make them yokels. However, in some areas, such as genetics, cybernetics and some war fighting tech, they are NOT as advanced as some of the native Earth powers.

They are, however, throughly seperated from the Earth powers, so it is a little immeterial the comparable tech levels. The Earth forces, or at least the ones who might want to move in to space, are NOT advanced enough to out weigh the massive bloackade forces maintained and are not willing to dump the massive resources necessary to push in to space. So tech levels don't matter much.

I am on my island and you are on your island, and you don't have a boat, so I could care less about you. That is basically how things stand.

Something else to point out, as I mentioned, Earth as a vastly larger population than Rifts Space (on the order of 100x larger or MORE), is more diverse and have at least limited access directly or indirectly to tech from a variety of dimensions through the Rifts. That means that innovation, discoveries (or re-discoveries), break throughs, etc are going to happen at a much more rapid pace than in Rifts space. The space community started much more advanced than Rifts Earth because of the loss of knowledge on Earth (I bet there was at least limited loss of knowledge, or no direct access originally in Rifts space as well). However, the forces on Rifts Earth have been innovating for centuries and by 101PA had caught up to most of the orbital communities, even if the CAN republic was somewhat more advanced in some respects. 8 more years of constant war, vastly large populations, tech diffusion, etc means that it is not a stretch to think that the Earth communities are more advanced than the CAN republic now.

The Rifts space communities, according to the latest rifter, have been at war to some extent with aliens (was there names, from SB9, the cat guys) for a few years and a new deadly threat is showing up (if you want to use the article as canon, I will personally). However, the selective pressure of a limited war and surival over the centuries means that most of the space communities research and efforts have been spent on every day survival and advances that aid that. Genetics is stated to be behind the CS as of 101PA based on what was in MiO (indirectly stated at least). Selective pressure and vastly large populations fighting for their survival against Tolkeen, federation of magic, Xiticics, Gargoyles, Brodkill and others for decades now means a lot higher focus on war fighting stuff, with out much need to focus on things that keep you alive day to day (life support, water extraction, recycling, etc).

It really is not a stretch to say that Earth communities can out innovate the space communities because of their vastly greater size, greater access to resources, at least limited access to extradimensional tech, more diversity and less reliance on day to day survival against the environment (though the later means that the space communities are probably decades or more beyond most Earth communities in things like recycling, life support, etc).

[Kagashi]

Danka.

I'll have to check that all out tomorrow I currently have to learn the Magic system. Blah. lol

If memory serves South America 2 also introduces an alien race that's another faction that the space colonies have to deal with, highly advanced with their own unique 'man I'd love to have that!' technology and retcons MiO's Rifts section slightly as a result.

Arkhon's Their armor takes half damage from energy weapons, but double damage from kinetic weapons. They have a "tribeam" technology that does double damage to most materials cept for their own armor and force fields. They also utilize Flechette technology. However, like the ML, no ships aside their fighter...hard to use them in MiO without their space ship stats.

It doesnt Retcon MiO, it augments. MiO was written for 101 PA. The events in SA2 detail the 74 PA invasion of Earth which the space fold drives were affected by the magical energies surrounding Rifts Earth and they were thrown 30 years into the future...thus 104 PA. End result, Freedom Station and the CAN republic were about to finally go toe to toe when the fleet folded between them. They then, saw the threat and combined forces (again with their non-detailed star ships and fighters) to destroy a portion of the Arkhon fleet despite the Arkhon superior tech (another blanket statement which alludes that Arkhon's tech is superior to the CAN Republic, but really does not detail anything in any real source material). With their fold drives burned out, they were stuck and 250,000 Arkhons were stranded in the solar system. The battle weakened all the orbital communities save for Outcast station and the fleet became part of the MiO environment.

Saying it retcons would be like saying Return of the Jedi retconed Lukes lightsaber to green. It didnt retcon, it continued the story. You guys really need to take timeline into account.

[Kagashi]

The Rifts space communities, according to the latest rifter, have been at war to some extent with aliens (was there names, from SB9, the cat guys) for a few years and a new deadly threat is showing up (if you want to use the article as canon, I will personally).

I assume the material is optional and not official? Sounds like it might make a good base for an official World book though. We might be on the right path for Rifts Space.

[azazel1024]

Its optional, but it continues the whole "Arkhons thrown in to the future" deal a bit, and introduces a new alien threat that is likely to unit the orbital communities and the Arkhon together to oppose it. Its pretty good, but not too much more than basic stats for the new comers, their ships (limited to scouts, fighters and their one big "mothership" is all the aliens have with them) and a bit of plot (good plot though). It also updates what has happened in general between the orbital community, the war with the Arkhon once they appeared and how it looks like peace might break out because of the new threat to everyone. It appeared in the most recent rifter.

[Shark_Force]

i kinda trailed off part way through, and i'm not sure if this has already been posted... but i figure worst case scenario it's an extra link to something that seems to be related to where this discussion has wound up.

http://www.super-nexus.com/

you will all probably be at least somewhat interested in the "riftspace" section.

[Akashic Soldier]

I recently found something else with VVRDS, adventure junkies, fighting against "The Rifts", a xenophobic lunar colony, giant robots, and a giant ass robot Dragon.

I wonder if it was an inspiration at all...

Click me and Enjoy!

[Akashic Soldier]

I just read the Moon entry in Aftermath so bring out the dead horse!! It's back people!!!

According to current continuity in the year 109 C.A.N's technology level is still better than anything currently on Rifts Earth or in the Zone.

[DhAkael]

I just read the Moon entry in Aftermath so bring out the dead horse!! It's back people!!!

According to current continuity in the year 109 C.A.N's technology level is still better than anything currently on Rifts Earth or in the Zone.

Well, in canon at least

[Nightmask]

I just read the Moon entry in Aftermath so bring out the dead horse!! It's back people!!!

According to current continuity in the year 109 C.A.N's technology level is still better than anything currently on Rifts Earth or in the Zone.

Given how that's not possible with the kind of technology that's on the Earth (including ARCHIE-3 and its acquired technologies including Mechanoid Technology and the Megaversal Legion) relative to what the CAN Republic has going for it Kevin seems to be inflating the capabilities of the moon (does he have a thing for rampant human-supremacist xenophobes? ) well beyond what's believable.

[Akashic Soldier]

I just read the Moon entry in Aftermath so bring out the dead horse!! It's back people!!!

According to current continuity in the year 109 C.A.N's technology level is still better than anything currently on Rifts Earth or in the Zone.

Given how that's not possible with the kind of technology that's on the Earth (including ARCHIE-3 and its acquired technologies including Mechanoid Technology and the Megaversal Legion) relative to what the CAN Republic has going for it Kevin seems to be inflating the capabilities of the moon (does he have a thing for rampant human-supremacist xenophobes? ) well beyond what's believable.

It credits this to ARCHIE 7 so maybe you've underestimated the power and abilities of this massive super computer?

[Nightmask]

I just read the Moon entry in Aftermath so bring out the dead horse!! It's back people!!!

According to current continuity in the year 109 C.A.N's technology level is still better than anything currently on Rifts Earth or in the Zone.

Given how that's not possible with the kind of technology that's on the Earth (including ARCHIE-3 and its acquired technologies including Mechanoid Technology and the Megaversal Legion) relative to what the CAN Republic has going for it Kevin seems to be inflating the capabilities of the moon (does he have a thing for rampant human-supremacist xenophobes? ) well beyond what's believable.

It credits this to ARCHIE 7 so maybe you've underestimated the power and abilities of this massive super computer?

I'm not underestimating anything; the technology of the CAN Republic is being over-estimated. How can they can have technology better than anyone on Rifts Earth when there are so many on Rifts Earth with Phase-world level technology and the CAN Republic has never been shown demonstrating anything even remotely that capable? It doesn't logically follow. If they had superior technology they aren't using any of it apparently, not even for weapons technology or improvement of survival in general. Another poster has already pointed out all sorts of holes in the idea that the CAN Republic could actually be that technologically superior.

[Akashic Soldier]

And I've offered several common sense explanations have have been ignored.

The problem isn't technology its that people are assuming they have problems that they won't consider to be problems. Specificly the zero-G thing. They're not interested in conquering earth and their tech is good enough (and there is no social stigma) that bionics can easily replace any serious damage. That's right, they give cybernetics to their average citizens.

[Nightmask]

And I've offered several common sense explanations have have been ignored.

The problem isn't technology its that people are assuming they have problems that they won't consider to be problems. Specificly the zero-G thing. They're not interested in conquering earth and their tech is good enough (and there is no social stigma) that bionics can easily replace any serious damage. That's right, they give cybernetics to their average citizens.

Except they aren't common sense explanations because they don't solve anything.

For example, the gravity issue. A key point you're missing is that gravity-manipulation technology is just as important to them as it is to anyone else. Even earth-normal gravitational acceleration is harmful or fatal to them, gravity is an even bigger issue for them than it is for anyone else. Being able to ensure a safe gravity factor is essential to them, and whether you're adapted for the Moon or Jupiter's gravity being able to manipulate that fundamental force grants enormous benefits such as enhanced ship designs over the current ones available in space.

On the cybernetics issue, just because you hand them out to the average citizen doesn't make them somehow qualify as superior it just means they consider them a common feature to make available to people. It otherwise says nothing about the quality of the cybernetics or bionics relative to what's anywhere else, just that they manufacture them in great quantities and have been accumulating them over the centuries (remember squicky as it seems many cybernetic systems have been 'recycled' and serviced since they were made prior to the Cataclysm). Just look at Free Quebec, they manufactured a few extra Glitter Boys to stockpile each year and had a huge backlog that they could instantly bring online once they farmed out the power cores to Triax.

Overall it just doesn't work. We're told that CAN is so great but nothing we actually see of it is all that noteworthy outside of ARCHIE-7 and that's hardly anything to use as proof that CAN has better tech than anyone else in the Solar System. Especially when again it requires them to show tech that's equal to Phase World in ability in spite of being told how native technology is centuries behind Phase World and while they might eventually catch up and exceed them it'll be a good century before they can't.

So without a Rifts: Space that rewrites the material for the CAN Republic with superior technology we have nothing to support a claim that the CAN's anything but decently better than many of the Earth native civilizations. Even that's a stretch when you consider how many empires on Earth are in regular battles with hostile forces that constantly force them to have to innovate and improve their technology or be destroyed. Triax for example with the Gargoyle empire's near constant attacks. Meanwhile the CAN Republic is fairly stagnant, having little to drive it to reach new heights of technology, and it doesn't have even the access to alien technology that can be reverse engineered and improved upon that comes onto Rifts Earth fairly regularly.

[Akashic Soldier]

Except they aren't common sense explanations because they don't solve anything.

For example, the gravity issue. A key point you're missing is that gravity-manipulation technology is just as important to them as it is to anyone else. Even earth-normal gravitational acceleration is harmful or fatal to them, gravity is an even bigger issue for them than it is for anyone else. Being able to ensure a safe gravity factor is essential to them, and whether you're adapted for the Moon or Jupiter's gravity being able to manipulate that fundamental force grants enormous benefits such as enhanced ship designs over the current ones available in space.

This isn't really well thought out (I am not saying that as an attack to be mean, just stop and think about this a minute) they don't need or miss the ability to survive in higher gravity anymore than Whales miss their legs or running fast. They, as a culture, are born, raised, live and die in Zero-G. And when there are health issues they can easily just be given a new arm or a better heart. In fact, these in most cases are better than what their Earth-based ancestors had because they're stronger, faster, and don't cramp up. As a space-faring group of people that are quite happy to survive and prosper in their current environment what you and others may see as a serious disability they just see as normal or trivial.

On the cybernetics issue, just because you hand them out to the average citizen doesn't make them somehow qualify as superior it just means they consider them a common feature to make available to people. It otherwise says nothing about the quality of the cybernetics or bionics relative to what's anywhere else, just that they manufacture them in great quantities and have been accumulating them over the centuries (remember squicky as it seems many cybernetic systems have been 'recycled' and serviced since they were made prior to the Cataclysm). Just look at Free Quebec, they manufactured a few extra Glitter Boys to stockpile each year and had a huge backlog that they could instantly bring online once they farmed out the power cores to Triax.

No it doesn't but the fact that in cannon Kevin has said (in both their write ups) that they are more advanced than any technology on Earth means, they are. Also the fact that cybernetics are so readily available and easily mass produced should not be overlooked. This means that A.R.C.H.I.E 7's production facilities for cybernetics/bionics (and likely military) are phenomenal. It means that infants that might die at birth live on through the wonder of artifice. It means that every life is sustained as a useful part of the Lunar body.

Overall it just doesn't work. We're told that CAN is so great but nothing we actually see of it is all that noteworthy outside of ARCHIE-7 and that's hardly anything to use as proof that CAN has better tech than anyone else in the Solar System. Especially when again it requires them to show tech that's equal to Phase World in ability in spite of being told how native technology is centuries behind Phase World and while they might eventually catch up and exceed them it'll be a good century before they can't.

I do not think it is fair to keep bringing phase world into the equation because it is Phase World technology not Earth-based Technology. However, if you want to blur the line and play that card then using the same rationality there is NO REASON that C.A.N cannot have the same technology levels if not more advanced. Nothing in the setting says they do not. In fact... it specifically says the C.A.N Republic's technology is considered such a wonder by outsiders because it blurs the line between technology and magic... and the only time I have ever seen technology within the Megaverse described as bluing the line between Magic and Technology is when they refer to the technology of the First Race who breathed life into the Cosmic Forge. If other race's or cultures have technology described as blurring the line between technology and magic I'd love to hear about them (honestly) but as far as I have read besides the First who then set about creating all life nothing else has been described as such. This might well mean that C.A.N (A.R.C.H.I.E 7) is sufficiently powerful that it can crack the Cosmic Equation emitted by the forge or solve math that would turn you or I into gibbering fools eating our own feces. It has been able to grow and expand for hundreds and hundreds of years without deviating from its original function or suffering any severe damage to its mind or systems like A.R.C.H.I.E 3. And as such... for all we know... it might well be the most intelligent and efficient AI ever developed by mankind.

So without a Rifts: Space that rewrites the material for the CAN Republic with superior technology we have nothing to support a claim that the CAN's anything but decently better than many of the Earth native civilizations. Even that's a stretch when you consider how many empires on Earth are in regular battles with hostile forces that constantly force them to have to innovate and improve their technology or be destroyed. Triax for example with the Gargoyle empire's near constant attacks. Meanwhile the CAN Republic is fairly stagnant, having little to drive it to reach new heights of technology, and it doesn't have even the access to alien technology that can be reverse engineered and improved upon that comes onto Rifts Earth fairly regularly.

This much I agree with, however... we have an old saying on Earth Big Brother is Watching.

They're America (the real America) in Space, think about it.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

that book is a joke at best,
i put them in the same position as the new navy as jokes

[Akashic Soldier]

that book is a joke at best,
i put them in the same position as the new navy as jokes

Aftermath?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

that book is a joke at best,
i put them in the same position as the new navy as jokes

Aftermath?

mutants in orbit, i feel both the new navy and the space colonies were poorly handled, "our homeland is overrun with with monsters, junior nasis and other weird stuff , but lets do nothing about that or offer no help what so ever.

yeah not like someone up there in orbit had the idea of dropping something on that island in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, that is crawling with monsters.

[Nightmask]

Except they aren't common sense explanations because they don't solve anything.

For example, the gravity issue. A key point you're missing is that gravity-manipulation technology is just as important to them as it is to anyone else. Even earth-normal gravitational acceleration is harmful or fatal to them, gravity is an even bigger issue for them than it is for anyone else. Being able to ensure a safe gravity factor is essential to them, and whether you're adapted for the Moon or Jupiter's gravity being able to manipulate that fundamental force grants enormous benefits such as enhanced ship designs over the current ones available in space.

This isn't really well thought out (I am not saying that as an attack to be mean, just stop and think about this a minute) they don't need or miss the ability to survive in higher gravity anymore than Whales miss their legs or running fast. They, as a culture, are born, raised, live and die in Zero-G. And when there are health issues they can easily just be given a new arm or a better heart. In fact, these in most cases are better than what their Earth-based ancestors had because they're stronger, faster, and don't cramp up. As a space-faring group of people that are quite happy to survive and prosper in their current environment what you and others may see as a serious disability they just see as normal or trivial

I think you're reaching there, particularly claiming that the health issues are easily fixed with replacement parts. If you're so healthy you don't need replacement parts and yet they're quite common. They're so common because they're necessary to deal with obvious health issues. They definitely aren't the better for having adapted to such a low-gravity environment. They also aren't a space-faring race of people, they're confined to the Moon (other than the few who go mine ice on the martian moons) and don't fare in space otherwise.

On the cybernetics issue, just because you hand them out to the average citizen doesn't make them somehow qualify as superior it just means they consider them a common feature to make available to people. It otherwise says nothing about the quality of the cybernetics or bionics relative to what's anywhere else, just that they manufacture them in great quantities and have been accumulating them over the centuries (remember squicky as it seems many cybernetic systems have been 'recycled' and serviced since they were made prior to the Cataclysm). Just look at Free Quebec, they manufactured a few extra Glitter Boys to stockpile each year and had a huge backlog that they could instantly bring online once they farmed out the power cores to Triax.

No it doesn't but the fact that in cannon Kevin has said (in both their write ups) that they are more advanced than any technology on Earth means, they are. Also the fact that cybernetics are so readily available and easily mass produced should not be overlooked. This means that A.R.C.H.I.E 7's production facilities for cybernetics/bionics (and likely military) are phenomenal. It means that infants that might die at birth live on through the wonder of artifice. It means that every life is sustained as a useful part of the Lunar body.

I believe the trope you're invoking is 'informed ability', that we're simply to take one's word for them being so great when everything we see shows that they aren't. And again just because they can mass-produce cybernetics and bionics doesn't mean that they're so technologically advanced, it just means they have enough production facilities to produce what they need. We have car manufacturing facilities that make vehicles available to nearly everyone but that's just an example of expansive production facilities, that doesn't mean we're a super-tech society. If you're truly so far ahead of everyone else then it should show: Bionics should be better than what anyone else can get, weapons more destructive for their size than what anyone else produces, and so on. But CAN doesn't show any kind of superiority, the best it's got going for it is ARCHIE-7 and while it's an impressive thing it's hardly reason enough to justify a claim of being centuries ahead of everyone else.

Overall it just doesn't work. We're told that CAN is so great but nothing we actually see of it is all that noteworthy outside of ARCHIE-7 and that's hardly anything to use as proof that CAN has better tech than anyone else in the Solar System. Especially when again it requires them to show tech that's equal to Phase World in ability in spite of being told how native technology is centuries behind Phase World and while they might eventually catch up and exceed them it'll be a good century before they can't.

I do not think it is fair to keep bringing phase world into the equation because it is Phase World technology not Earth-based Technology. However, if you want to blur the line and play that card then using the same rationality there is NO REASON that C.A.N cannot have the same technology levels if not more advanced. Nothing in the setting says they do not. In fact... it specifically says the C.A.N Republic's technology is considered such a wonder by outsiders because it blurs the line between technology and magic... and the only time I have ever seen technology within the Megaverse described as bluing the line between Magic and Technology is when they refer to the technology of the First Race who breathed life into the Cosmic Forge. If other race's or cultures have technology described as blurring the line between technology and magic I'd love to hear about them (honestly) but as far as I have read besides the First who then set about creating all life nothing else has been described as such. This might well mean that C.A.N (A.R.C.H.I.E 7) is sufficiently powerful that it can crack the Cosmic Equation emitted by the forge or solve math that would turn you or I into gibbering fools eating our own feces. It has been able to grow and expand for hundreds and hundreds of years without deviating from its original function or suffering any severe damage to its mind or systems like A.R.C.H.I.E 3. And as such... for all we know... it might well be the most intelligent and efficient AI ever developed by mankind.

I've never seen it stated anywhere that the CAN Republic looked like it was looking like it was a magitech society, and it'd be pretty absurd to make such a claim. Especially to try and claim that they're above standard for Phase World with all their deficiencies. Like the rest of the space community they had Golden Age technology when the cataclysm occurred and since then have been a xenophobic, closed society. Golden age tech while great was mediocre in galactic terms. It's simply not possible that they've reached a level of technology on par with Phase World or even more absurdly higher.

So without a Rifts: Space that rewrites the material for the CAN Republic with superior technology we have nothing to support a claim that the CAN's anything but decently better than many of the Earth native civilizations. Even that's a stretch when you consider how many empires on Earth are in regular battles with hostile forces that constantly force them to have to innovate and improve their technology or be destroyed. Triax for example with the Gargoyle empire's near constant attacks. Meanwhile the CAN Republic is fairly stagnant, having little to drive it to reach new heights of technology, and it doesn't have even the access to alien technology that can be reverse engineered and improved upon that comes onto Rifts Earth fairly regularly.

This much I agree with, however... we have an old saying on Earth Big Brother is Watching.

They're America (the real America) in Space, think about it.

Well outside of the New Navy and the human members of the Megaversal Legion Rifts: Space is pretty much the only area that still remembers and has people living like Americans (although that's more Freedom Station than the CAN Republic).

[Akashic Soldier]

I'm in a rush so I can't write a detailed response but you can find the refrence to their advances in their original write up in Mutants in Orbit. They are not a magi-tech society they are simply so advanced that visitors to the station think so.

This is a supposed to be a testament to how advanced they are and not a reference to any sort of magical science they possess.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I'm in a rush so I can't write a detailed response but you can find the refrence to their advances in their original write up in Mutants in Orbit. They are not a magi-tech society they are simply so advanced that visitors to the station think so.

This is a supposed to be a testament to how advanced they are and not a reference to any sort of magical science they possess.

sorry but they have no reports on satellites dont unauthorized trips from ground based source, so much for being over paranoid

[Nightmask]

I'm in a rush so I can't write a detailed response but you can find the refrence to their advances in their original write up in Mutants in Orbit. They are not a magi-tech society they are simply so advanced that visitors to the station think so.

This is a supposed to be a testament to how advanced they are and not a reference to any sort of magical science they possess.

I've read their entry repeatedly over the years and never saw anything to suggest that anyone thought it looked like they had tech so advanced it bordered on magic when looked upon. They have some impressive stuff but nothing that would give anyone a reason to think they were a century ahead of everyone else. They can't even produce force fields or manipulate gravity, at best the only thing they seem to have excelled at is creating ARCHIE-7 meanwhile we see no examples of advanced AI beyond it. No robots to put even the Skelebots of the CS to shame let alone ARCHIE-3's bots so if anything they backslid putting ARCHIE-7 together then doing nothing of consequence since.

[Akashic Soldier]

Man I'm glad I can read the page in the book sitting in front of me because otherwise I'd believe what you're are saying. Pretty convincing!

But there it is, right in the main write up.

Just because the tech in their books hasn't wowed you doesn't mean its not advanced or that's ALL they have.

[azazel1024]

On the gravity topic solely, as I don't feel like addressing the other stuff at the moment. Gravity manipulation is still of extreme importance.

In the Phase world setting it can allow propulsion and FTL. Potentially in the Phase world setting it may be what allows them to produce fusion/micro fusion power plants.

Also in the Rifts space setting, even if you don't use it for drives, it can help counteract the issues with living in zero G. Even if you no longer care about that or care about living in a future gravity well, if the fact that living in 1/6th G has caused lunies to have serious and possibly fatal health issues in a full G of gravity means that CANNOT be effective power armor or space fighter pilots.

We don't have an idea of just how much G force space ships employ in the Rift's space setting, but just looking at current day Chemically propelled rockets, I'd imagine the "hotter" space fighters should be able to manage at least 2-3 G, and quite possibly more like 4-8G for at least relatively short periods of time (pretty limited fuel compared to something like a traction drive or a CG drive, though fusion/plasma drives and Ion drives would have a lot more delta V, though Ion drives unless modifying them to be more fun, have pretty limited acceleration rates).

So yeah, 1-2G shouldn't kill a lunie for short periods, just like 9G won't kill a human in half way decent health, for short periods of time (10-60 seconds), but at the same time, 4-5G likely WOULD kill a Lunie.

So they would be very keenly interested in gravity manipulation, even if it was simply to reduce its effects as a sort of inertial damper on the pilot. Otherwise, PA and fighter pilots (and maybe even more powerful larger warship crews) are going to be at a distinct disadvantage comapred to those born and living in higher gravities as the performance of their vehicles is going to have to be limited by probably anything from half to as little as a quarter or less the acceleration envelop to prevent blackouts and worse, death.

I know you keep arguing that we don't know what tech it is that is more advanced, but face it, nothing in the books (other than sort of VRDSS, but the Naruni remote system is pretty similar/close that combined with a Russian cyberlink and you have VRDSS) shows more advanced tech. So until books come along that show it, a simple statement of having higher tech than Rifts Earth has no relevant examples AND in general it really makes no sense for about a dozen reasons previously listed that the CAN Republic WOULD have higher tech levels except possibly in very limited contexts.

[Nightmask]

Man I'm glad I can read the page in the book sitting in front of me because otherwise I'd believe what you're are saying. Pretty convincing!

But there it is, right in the main write up.

Just because the tech in their books hasn't wowed you doesn't mean its not advanced or that's ALL they have.

You're going to have to point out the page then because as much as you keep insisting on it I'm not finding anything in the book that even hints at the CAN Republic being so advanced that people think their tech borders on magic. There is however an entry on the Moon Colony that notes how much the Lunies envy those with artificial gravity (of the simulated sort via rotation like Freedom Station) because they can't handle anything over .5G and suffer potentially lethal health problems for anything higher for even short periods of time.

[DhAkael]

Simple; GM says they have more advanced tech?...viola, they have more advanced tech!
Kevin Siembiada has been avoiding doing ANYTHING with the orbitals, and the CAN republic in specific. It's like he pathelogicaly afraid to even go near writing anything about it cuz "Oh NOZE! My Bootiful Coalition and Triaxes is no gooder no more!"
That and it looks like he DEFINATELY wants all the mudslugs to stay mud slugs. Period. At least in canon.
-sigh- thus argue as much as you like, won't get you anywhere. It says in plain black & white fluff text that the Lunies have better tech than everyone BUT the hard-cold text & number-crunching says "NYET!"

So in conclusion; BOTH sides of the argument are correct.

Leaving the poor schmuck GM's to pick up the slack.
Again.

[Nightmask]

Simple; GM says they have more advanced tech?...viola, they have more advanced tech!
Kevin Siembiada has been avoiding doing ANYTHING with the orbitals, and the CAN republic in specific. It's like he pathelogicaly afraid to even go near writing anything about it cuz "Oh NOZE! My Bootiful Coalition and Triaxes is no gooder no more!"
That and it looks like he DEFINATELY wants all the mudslugs to stay mud slugs. Period. At least in canon.
-sigh- thus argue as much as you like, won't get you anywhere. It says in plain black & white fluff text that the Lunies have better tech than everyone BUT the hard-cold text & number-crunching says "NYET!"

So in conclusion; BOTH sides of the argument are correct.

Leaving the poor schmuck GM's to pick up the slack.
Again.

Pretty much what it boils down to. If a GM is going by the fluff then he has to retool all their tech to be superior to what's shown, otherwise he needs to disregard it as not living up to hype and use things as presented.

[Akashic Soldier]

[DhAkael]

Simple; GM says they have more advanced tech?...viola, they have more advanced tech!
Kevin Siembiada has been avoiding doing ANYTHING with the orbitals, and the CAN republic in specific. It's like he pathelogicaly afraid to even go near writing anything about it cuz "Oh NOZE! My Bootiful Coalition and Triaxes is no gooder no more!"
That and it looks like he DEFINATELY wants all the mudslugs to stay mud slugs. Period. At least in canon.
-sigh- thus argue as much as you like, won't get you anywhere. It says in plain black & white fluff text that the Lunies have better tech than everyone BUT the hard-cold text & number-crunching says "NYET!"

So in conclusion; BOTH sides of the argument are correct.

Leaving the poor schmuck GM's to pick up the slack.
Again.

Pretty much what it boils down to. If a GM is going by the fluff then he has to retool all their tech to be superior to what's shown, otherwise he needs to disregard it as not living up to hype and use things as presented.

..and THIRD option... "PROPAGANDA"
CAn Repub makes everyone THINK they're lightyears and eons ahead of everyones tech base.
In actuality? They can barely fight off a brigade of NG Samson's modified for Space-use
BUT since everyone assumes they are gawds of robot-tech and cybernetics, no one tries to put 'em to the test.
Isn't false information fun?