Basic Combat Question

[MikeM]

I apologize if this has been brought up, but I couldn't find it in the FAQ.
If it is there, a link would be greatly appreciated.

It has been a long time since I have played or run any Palladium games but after a weekend of reminiscing with some old friends, I really started to miss Heroes Unlimited. So I started working on an adventure to run at the local comic/gaming shop. If it does well, I may write it up and submit it to the Rifter.

So in combat, someone attacks and the person being attacked can dodge, parry or auto dodge right? I know the bonuses are different for each. No problem.
Dodge counts as an action, placing the defender on the defensive. No problem there.
I know most characters get parry as an auto action and auto dodge don't count as actions, but do they still lose their attack, placing them in a defensive position, or do they still get to counter attack.
For example: Character A and B

Example 1
A wins initiative and attacks with a gun (counts as 1 action)
B dodges (counts as 1 action)
A gets to attack again
B dodges again
etc, etc.

Example 2
A wins initiative and attacks with a punch
B attempts to parry
Now my question is does A attack again or does B get to counter-attack?

Example 3
A wins initiative and attacks with a gun
B attempts to auto-dodge
Now my question is does A attack again or does B get to counter-attack?

Thanks folks,

MikeM

[Hendrik]

Hi MikeM,

I know most characters get parry as an auto action and auto dodge don't count as actions, but do they still lose their attack, placing them in a defensive position, or do they still get to counter attack.

I think so (see also quotes below)!

... An automatic dodge works just like an (automatic) parry in that the act of dodging does not use up any attacks to perform ...

Question: Person A has 3 apm, and person B has 4 apm.
Person A is out of attacks, and person B strikes A:
Person A: Has a hand-to-hand so he has a auto-parry. Doesn't have an auto dodge. So is the only thing that Person A can do against B's attack is parry?
The reason i ask this question is because of Teng-jutsu. Under the Tengu Automatic Leap Dodge: "each leaping dodge uses up one melee attack, but can be done indefinitely to avoid attack and damage as if it were a parry."
So from this information i have just answered my question, if someone is out of attacks, all they can do is take it or use an "auto" something.
Answer: In older games, like N&S, PF2, HU2, AtB2, Nightbane, etc., once you are out of attacks, all you can do is automatic moves.
In newer games like Rifts (with the RGMG update), Splicers, and BTS2, you can dodge, but it uses up attacks from your next melee round.
The Tengu "Automatic" Leap Dodge works like the old N&S Automatic Dodge, you spend one attack (pretty much your first of the melee round), and can THEN automatically dodge the remaining attacks that melee round without using an attack.

Cheers
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

PS:
I may be wrong there but I also think that a (standard) dodge, that does take a way one attack, does not take away your next attack action (provided you have enough total APM so that at that point 2 are left) but only your last attack that round is taken "away". If you (standard) parry/dodge more than once, the "taking away from the end" would be repeated.

Alternatively, there would be the simultaneous attack.

Cheers
Hendrik

[Akashic Soldier]

You can also respond to attacks with entangle or disarm.

As for counters, if they can counter attack using Paired Weapons WP than yes they would attack after their parry. However if they do not, the attacker makes all his attacks (with the defender defending) and then if the defender has any actions left they attack back.

[Hendrik]

You can also respond to attacks with entangle or disarm.

Or roll with the blow ...

As for counters, if they can counter attack using Paired Weapons WP than yes they would attack after their parry. However if they do not, the attacker makes all his attacks (with the defender defending) and then if the defender has any actions left they attack back.

Hmmm, this sounds like you handle it so that combatant A will deplete all his attacks, then it is B's turn, then C's etc.

I would disagree, AS. ... Don't know if that is a rule or a houserule, but that is how I handle it:
1. initiative (one for the whole round)
2. Combatant A resolves attack (1st APM) with combatant B defending
3. Combatant B resolves attack (his 1st APM) with combatant A defending
4. Steps 2. and 3. repeated for 2nd, 3rd, nth APM ... until there are no attacks left
5. However, if e.g. combatant A peters out completely on APMs and combatant B at that time still has APMs left, then combatant B will continue the procedure until he has no APM left. Combatant A could then only defend provided he has auto dodge or auto parry.

Scheme:
If A has 3 APM and B has 6 APM. To be adjusted if APMs are burned by one or the other for defense (e.g. normal dodge) or due to special actions (power punch).
1-1
2-2
3-3
0-4
0-5
0-6

Cheers
Hendrik

[Severus Snape]

Dodge: You lose an action for the attempt, whether or not it succeeds. All bonuses that specifically say "Dodge", plus PP bonus, apply.
Parry: You do not lose an action for the attempt. All bonuses that specifically say "Parry" apply.
Auto-Dodge: You do not lose an action for the attempt. All bonuses that specifically say "Auto-Dodge", plus PP bonus, apply.

It should be noted that not every attack can be dodged, and not every attack can be parried.

[Hendrik]

In older games, like N&S, PF2, HU2, AtB2, Nightbane, etc., once you are out of attacks, all you can do is automatic moves. In newer games like Rifts (with the RGMG update), Splicers, and BTS2, you can dodge, but it uses up attacks from your next melee round.

I should like to add that I do not handle it like that, but if you are out of APMs you cannot dodge only auto-dodge. This APM deduction overhang ... tsktsk ... I do not hold with that. IIRC there was a revision according to that in canon (if only I knew where). Anyway, that's the way I let it roll.

Dodge: You lose an action for the attempt, whether or not it succeeds. All bonuses that specifically say "Dodge", plus PP bonus, apply.
Parry: You do not lose an action for the attempt. All bonuses that specifically say "Parry" apply.
Auto-Dodge: You do not lose an action for the attempt. All bonuses that specifically say "Auto-Dodge", plus PP bonus, apply.

Aye.

It should be noted that not every attack can be dodged, and not every attack can be parried.

Please kindly refresh my memory, Severus.

Cheers
Hendrik

[Bill]

Parry attempts do require an action, if the character is not trained in at least Hand to Hand: Basic.

[MikeM]

Ignoring roll, entangle and disarm for the moment.
Hendrik, I apparently do combat different than you.
I guess the question is the order of combat.

Lets say Hendrik and I are both characters in a Palladium world.
Hendrik beats me on an initiative and goes first.
He shoots a gun.
MikeM not wanting to get hit, dodges.

Now, the question is does MikeM get an attack or does Hendrik get to attack again.
I know the dodge (successful or not counts as one of my actions), but do I get to attack now, or is it Hendrick's turn again?

Or does it go as Hendrik suggested?
Hendrik attacks
MikeM dodges
MikeM attacks
Hendrick dodges

Lets assume MikeM and Hendrick both have the same number of attacks per melee so neither will have extra attacks at the end of the round.

edit - woohoo! I'm an Adventurer now!

[Hendrik]

Ignoring roll, entangle and disarm for the moment.
Hendrik, I apparently do combat different than you.
I guess the question is the order of combat.

Yup. The question is when to deduct APMs burned on a (standard) dodge or parry.

My answer is obvious, see my short answers above , but I have started to wonder whether your way is actually not more exciting.

As such, both ways obviously serve just as well.

I am very eager to see the others' replies.

Cheers
Hendrik

[MikeM]

I used to do combat like that Hendrik
But in the FAQ it states:

13. How many times can a character parry? Can John parry(automatic) an attack from bill and mike and still have his attack to use?

Answer: A character can parry equal to their number of attacks (actions) per melee round. If they have automatic parry then can also still attack.

14. Does rolling with a punch take an attack from the defending character? And if so, does it take his very next attack, leaving him on the defensive for his attacker's next strike? Or does the lost attack/action come off the defender's total number of attacks, letting him counter strike?

Answer: It does count as a action. (you could say recovering from the blow/impact) and does take the next attack.

So if they have auto parry they can still attack, which leads me to think if they did not have auto parry, it would count as an action and therefore they would not be able to counter attack. This made me think that dodging would be like number 14. It would take an actoin and their next attack, not allowing them to counter-attack. Now if they used auto-dodge, it wouldn't count as an action, AND they would be able to counter-attack.

Thats how I would run it.

[Severus Snape]

It should be noted that not every attack can be dodged, and not every attack can be parried.

Please kindly refresh my memory, Severus.

Cheers
Hendrik

In order to dodge an attack, you must know that it is coming. For example, if you are being attacked from behind and are not aware of your attacker, you cannot attempt to dodge the attack.

For parrying, you have to have the ability to parry the particular type of attack. For example, you can parry a sword, or a club, or an axe. But unless you have a power that allows you to parry bullets or lasers, you cannot parry those types of attacks.

[Hendrik]

It should be noted that not every attack can be dodged, and not every attack can be parried.

Please kindly refresh my memory, Severus.

Cheers
Hendrik

In order to dodge an attack, you must know that it is coming. For example, if you are being attacked from behind and are not aware of your attacker, you cannot attempt to dodge the attack.

For parrying, you have to have the ability to parry the particular type of attack. For example, you can parry a sword, or a club, or an axe. But unless you have a power that allows you to parry bullets or lasers, you cannot parry those types of attacks.

'tis true. ... ...

Thank you for answering my - in retrospect - idotic question. It is appreciated.

I was too set on my slugfest combat example of combatants A and B facing each other, so they know what is coming. To my mind shooting was not an issue because I thought about straight melee, and thusly could use parry and dodge "synonymous". I thought you meant something arcane. (Needed to explain that to redeem my GM honour.)

[Damian Magecraft]

there are two schools of thought on how regular dodge is resolved in combat...

school 1 plays out as such:
A gets init
A attacks
B dodges (burning his very next attack)
A attacks again (since B used his to dodge)

school 2 plays it like so:
A gets init
A attacks
B dodges (spending 1 action)
B attacks
and so on until a gets the upper hand at the end of the melee (assuming A never dodges)

neither way is wrong perse...
I prefer method 1 because it emphasizes the active defense design of Palladiums combat system more than method 2.

[Bill]

I also play it as Damian describes in his first example. It places greater emphasis on gaining and keeping initiative, which I find is the only way many of the combat maneuvers make sense.

[MikeM]

Thanks for the help guys.
So if someone has auto-dodge, it wouldn't burn their next attack and they would be able to counter-attack right?

[Damian Magecraft]

Thanks for the help guys.
So if someone has auto-dodge, it wouldn't burn their next attack and they would be able to counter-attack right?

Yes because auto-dodge has no cost attached to it.
I prefer the rules for auto-dodge as presented in N&S instead... But that's just me.

[drewkitty ~..~]

melee Example
A wins initiative and attacks with a punch
B attempts to parry
B attacks
A parrys
etc...

shoot out Example 2
A wins initiative and attacks with a gun
B attempts to auto-dodge
B attacks (if B AutoD's)

[Ice Dragon]

I apologize if this has been brought up, but I couldn't find it in the FAQ.
If it is there, a link would be greatly appreciated.

It has been a long time since I have played or run any Palladium games but after a weekend of reminiscing with some old friends, I really started to miss Heroes Unlimited. So I started working on an adventure to run at the local comic/gaming shop. If it does well, I may write it up and submit it to the Rifter.

So in combat, someone attacks and the person being attacked can dodge, parry or auto dodge right? I know the bonuses are different for each. No problem.
Dodge counts as an action, placing the defender on the defensive. No problem there.
I know most characters get parry as an auto action and auto dodge don't count as actions, but do they still lose their attack, placing them in a defensive position, or do they still get to counter attack.
For example: Character A and B

Example 1
A wins initiative and attacks with a gun (counts as 1 action)
B dodges (counts as 1 action)
A gets to attack again
B dodges again
etc, etc.

Example 2
A wins initiative and attacks with a punch
B attempts to parry
Now my question is does A attack again or does B get to counter-attack?

Example 3
A wins initiative and attacks with a gun
B attempts to auto-dodge
Now my question is does A attack again or does B get to counter-attack?

Thanks folks,

MikeM

Example A (in my GM version)
A wins and use his/her first attack/action for an attack with gun
B dodges (uses one of his/hers attack/action)
B returns fire back with his/her gun and uses her second attack/action
A takes damage (not using any dodge attack/action)
--- End first round -- A-1 attack/action, B-2 attacks/actions

Excample B
Parry is not using up a charactes action/attack.
B can attack normal (see my Example A)

Excample C
Auto dodge is not using up any of the characters action/attack
B can attack normal (see my Example A)

[TechnoGothic]

Exa,ple :
ROUND ONE
1) Attacks with Sword
2) Attempts to Parry, Success.
1) Attacks with Sword Again
2) Parrys again.
1) Attacks with sword again
2) Parries again.
(Now lets say "1" is out of Attacks now)
2) attacks with sword for the first time (cause he saved his attacks)
1) Parries (however this uses up an Attack from his round two attacks)
2) attacks with sword.
1) Parries (thats two attacks from round 2 gone)
2) Uses this last Attack to attack again with Sword.
1) Parries yet again (uses up his last attack from round two)

ROUND TWO
2) Attacks with Sword
1) Has no Actions to Attack with, can only continue to Parry, which now eats in round3's attacks)

and so on...
1) Can continue Defending himself using his Auto-Parry. However he continues to use up attacks for future rounds doing so now. Means he will be defending himself for awhile, unless "2)" decides to stop combat for a moment (several rounds) for whatever reason.