P.P.E. to Energy question

Yendor · Unread post by **Yendor** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:22 am

Has anyone figured out, in modern terms, how much 1 P.P.E./I.S.P. represents? Such as X volts or Y megawatts and similar.

glitterboy2098 · Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:04 am

PPE isn't a form of energy known to current science so there is no such conversion.

Cinos · Unread post by **Cinos** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:06 am

Being a fictional thing, I don't imagine anyone in the world has their Voltage, given voltage is only used for electricity. And that electricity exists, while P.P.E does not.

Bill · Unread post by **Bill** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:09 am

It's all fictional units. However, if you can find a power that will light up a light-bulb you can probably make up some number based on that.

Yendor · Unread post by **Yendor** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:13 am

Right, but long ways back, someone figured out the mega joules for Rifts E-clips, or some such.

Hendrik · Unread post by **Hendrik** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:30 pm

This is an interesting mental excercise. Not that I have a solution but I would go about it like this:

1. Find a reference system for PPE/ISP to later link with real life measures.

2. real life measures mentioned could be electric energy or kinetic energy, others obviously are also available.

3. What do we know?

the more PPE/ISP you spent the more devastating the effect, i.e. more damage is dealt

4. I think that the axiom "the more PPE/ISP, the more damage" holds true and can be painted as a similar relationship to the effect other forms of energy have.

5. So, the "only" thing someone would then have to do is analyze existing Spells and give a median (the median is necessary because the spells will not be linear in their cost-effect ratio) quota of necessary PPE/ISP "Spell energy" to achieve 1 point of damage (or 1D6 etc.) and then compare that to the amount of energy to create the same damage value result with "conventional" energy forms (science fiction or real).

6. If you wanted to go wild you could even put the same reasoning to "use" and find the P.S. equivalent of 1 ISP/PPE point.

Would that be an idea?

Cheers
Hendrik

Damian Magecraft · Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:37 pm

Hendrik wrote:This is an interesting mental excercise. Not that I have a solution but I would go about it like this:

1. Find a reference system for PPE/ISP to later link with real life measures.

2. real life measures mentioned could be electric energy or kinetic energy, others obviously are also available.

3. What do we know?
a. PPE powers zombies, they eat it.
b. PPE/ISP "grow" around ley lines and special sites of mystery and wonder (Stonehenge etc.). Interestingly, they also "grow" when near the Supernatural, which would make Supernatural beings "temporary energy sources" but not environment friendly.
c. ISP/PPE can either be used to create magical or psionic effects (let us refer to that, even if the term is not exact, hereinafter as "Spells").
d. Some of these Spells cause damage.
e. There is a ratio, which I doubt to be exact, let alone mathematically (only by way of an example to illustrate: sometimes 10 points will create a Spell that causes 1D6 damage and sometimes 2D6) but in principle: the more PPE/ISP you spent the more devastating the effect, i.e. more damage is dealt.

4. I think that the axiom "the more PPE/ISP, the more damage" holds true and can be painted as a similar relationship to the effect other forms of energy have.

5. So, the "only" thing someone would then have to do is analyze existing Spells and give a median (the median is necessary because the spells will not be linear in their cost-effect ratio) quota of necessary PPE/ISP "Spell energy" to achieve 1 point of damage (or 1D6 etc.) and then compare that to the amount of energy to create the same damage value result with "conventional" energy forms (science fiction or real).

6. If you wanted to go wild you could even put the same reasoning to "use" and find the P.S. equivalent of 1 ISP/PPE point.

Would that be an idea?

Cheers
Hendrik

This argument falls apart when one considers scaling damage spells such as Fireball and the like... (10 ppe produces 1 die of damage at level 1 but also produces 15 die of damage at level 15.)

Hendrik · Unread post by **Hendrik** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:50 pm

Hi Damian,

Damian Magecraft wrote:This argument falls apart when one considers scaling damage spells such as Fireball and the like... (10 ppe produces 1 die of damage at level 1 but also produces 15 die of damage at level 15.)

a. Indeed. :wink:

b. To still get an answer and a measure (of sorts) damage scaling could simply be ignored, i.e. we would treat damage scaling as an aberation to the rule.

c. As that would constitute ignoring evidence and ignorance is never really good: let us try to built it into the model!

damage scaling spells are simply more energy (ISP/PPE) efficient depending on the quality (level) of the conduit (caster)

This could mean:

What do you think?

Cheers
Hendrik

Damian Magecraft · Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:01 pm

Hendrik wrote:Hi Damian,

Damian Magecraft wrote:This argument falls apart when one considers scaling damage spells such as Fireball and the like... (10 ppe produces 1 die of damage at level 1 but also produces 15 die of damage at level 15.)

a. Indeed.

b. To still get an answer and a measure (of sorts) damage scaling could simply be ignored, i.e. we would treat damage scaling as an aberation to the rule.

c. As that would constitute ignoring evidence and ignorance is never really good: let us try to built it into the model!

- we can infer from the example axiom "10 ppe produces 1 die of damage at level 1 but also produces 15 die of damage at level 15" that (i) damage scaling happens with some kinds of Spells (wow) and, more importantly, that (ii) damage scaling spells are level dependent (wow, again)

- now for the start of "new stuff" ... the above can be translated to mean: damage scaling spells are simply more energy (ISP/PPE) efficient depending on the quality (level) of the conduit (caster)

- basically for damage scaling Spells the level acts like a better energy conductor for normal energy use

- i.e., a 15th level conduit is 15x more efficient (provided the axiom above holds true and it would - which I doubt but cannot check now - always be linear in that regard; but if not it would still work, only the formula would change every time or, better I guess, again a median efficiency factor for damage scaling spells could/should be determined) in its output than a 1st level conduit

- This could mean: the basic relation between "ISP/PPE to damage" and "normal power source to damage" would stay the same with damage scaling spells (i.e., at level 1), it would just have to be multiplied by the "damage scaling factor" (=level) to find the concrete energy equivalent for a damage scaling based on the afore set forth "model".

What do you think?

Cheers
Hendrik

I think it is indeed an interesting thought experiment.
But I do not see any practical (game) applications for the answer we would achieve.
Perhaps I am missing something?

Hendrik · Unread post by **Hendrik** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:09 pm

I might be missing the same thing. I am just along for the ride itself and have no care where it goes :wink:

...

Seriously, Yendor asked and I thought a reply would be an attempt to be helpful and fun in the process even if I seriously doubt there is any (game) practical purpose to it.

Hendrik · Unread post by **Hendrik** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:48 pm

Hmm, come to think of it ...

Measuring, scaling, in short: putting a structure to things, organizing is very human and a good first step to any research and thus "progress". Now that is common "wisdom". What is its game application? I think that the people of RIFTS earth will do just this (or have done that for the last couple of decades) to form an understanding of all the new things suddenly around them, e.g. magic. What is the use of a Watt, Volt, Joule? A measurement of MEV (magic energy value) is no less reasonable or useful, I would venture. Only, we cannot yet see a use.

Also, a "country" like the Coalition States, I think, would do exactly that, (a) to better wage/win wars and (b) because they are terrible bigots when it comes to magic. Hence, I think a radio communication between CS task forces would likely not be "Magic-User on your 3 casting a big ass fireball" but maybe more likely "200 MEV energy signature on your 3. Adjust shields!" and continuing to himself "By the Emperor's testicles, that's enough power to light Chi-Town for a day".

Understanding of the energy value could lead to the development of new counter-technology or detection devices.

Maybe it would also help to find a more technical understanding of what the kinetic etc. energy behind e.g. a fireball is.

It would also, maybe most importantly, answer how many men-of-magic are necessary to light a lightbulb.

Cheers
Hendrik

The Dark Elf · Unread post by **The Dark Elf** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:54 pm

How large an area does globe of daylight enlighten?

How much energy does an average lighbulb take for the same area?

Compare.

Now go back to your normal duties.

Cinos · Unread post by **Cinos** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:40 pm

The Dark Elf wrote:How large an area does globe of daylight enlighten?

How much energy does an average lighbulb take for the same area?

Compare.

Now go back to your normal duties.

Again, this is a variable based on the caster. 12 Feet Per level with a stable cost.

tuvermage · Unread post by **tuvermage** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:17 pm

there is Techno wizard generators that convert PPE into electrical power if I remember correct. that should give you the answer if you looked it up. I forget which book it was listed in.

glitterboy2098 · Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:57 pm

Yendor wrote:Right, but long ways back, someone figured out the mega joules for Rifts E-clips, or some such.

as one of the ones who worked out those numbers, i can say that it was a very different situation.
E clips are described in the game as storing electricity. and we had official mention in books as to an equivilence ratio between E-clips and megajoules (specifically, the energy absorption power gave an upper megajoule limit for absorbtion, and told us how many E-clips, car batteries, etc that was equal to.) then we ran those numbers through the total MD output of the L-20 pulse rifle, which gets the most damage and shots per eclip than any other rifts weapon. the end result gave us an upperlimit of MJ's per Md point. i say upper limit, because it's the amount of energy used by the weapon per MD point. depending on efficiency the amount that hits that target will be slightly less.

out of curiosity, i also ran numbers the other way, taking the energy release from Dynamite in real life and comparing it to the damage it does in game, which gave a slightly lower value, but one pretty close to the same.

frankly, i was shocked the numbers actually matched up so close at all.

Yendor · Unread post by **Yendor** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:24 pm

The inquiry based more on bridging the gap (at least in a game) between tech and magic, in a sense. If you had, for example, a HU2 robot pilot whose robot uses a nuclear power system, could said pilot emulate a magical effect, and if they could, how much power would it draw (more along the lower ends of power, such as electrical generators, etc.) per use, per "level" (if one thinks of it in terms of a mage's level).

Zamion138 · Unread post by **Zamion138** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:33 pm

Mystical knights from federation of magic can refill a car battery for 2 ppe....so i dont know how many volts or amps are in my car battery to tell you the truth but you could look it up.....and assuming mystic knights are the best at it and there is no leak of ppe to electricity in the conversion...

Cinos · Unread post by **Cinos** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:46 am

Zamion138 wrote:Mystical knights from federation of magic can refill a car battery for 2 ppe....so i dont know how many volts or amps are in my car battery to tell you the truth but you could look it up.....and assuming mystic knights are the best at it and there is no leak of ppe to electricity in the conversion...

Great, that doesn't change the fact that the same amount of PPE does different things that will not obey physics. It's magic. Get used to it, because as much as I hate the saying, a wizard did it.

Zamion138 · Unread post by **Zamion138** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:58 am

Cinos wrote:
Zamion138 wrote:Mystical knights from federation of magic can refill a car battery for 2 ppe....so i dont know how many volts or amps are in my car battery to tell you the truth but you could look it up.....and assuming mystic knights are the best at it and there is no leak of ppe to electricity in the conversion...

Great, that doesn't change the fact that the same amount of PPE does different things that will not obey physics. It's magic. Get used to it, because as much as I hate the saying, a wizard did it.

Sorta I bet the guy who asked to start has a reason to ask such as him or his players want to power something with a TW motor and hes trying to figure out how much ppe per hour/shot/ect.....So a "fact" isnt probaly needed just a good guideline to power something.

drewkitty ~..~ · Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:05 am

There are no direct conversions numbers because there is not way to directly convert PPE or ISP into physical power.

http://www.need.org/needpdf/infobook_ac ... Elec2I.pdf
volts and amps are measurements of the flow of the electricity.
volts are analogous to pressure in a water pipe.
amps are analogous to how big around a water pipe is.

watts are units of electrical power

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