Change classes

[barna10]

Ok. Why do you think chaging O.C.C.s is outlawed/taboo in Palladium? The predominate argument seems to be that characters are happy with who they are so why would they want to change? er..Ok.

Suppose I were a little farm boy from a planet with no magic, no technology higher than steel plows and I suddenly found myself in Phaseworld (maybe I hitched a ride on a slaveship). I have never experienced magic or martial arts or anything out-of-the-ordinary. I might be a 15th level farmer. Isn't it possible that I may want to re-invent myself, maybe by learning magic? Maybe by unlocking my third eye? Why is this such a taboo concept? People in the real world take up new professions, religions, hobbies, etc all the time and at every age. Why would this be different in a world with more possibilities?

Why is it so strange to think that someone that grew up in Coalition borders might not want to become a mage after the chance to explore the world and experiencing what magic really is?

[Damian Magecraft]

Ok. Why do you think chaging O.C.C.s is outlawed/taboo in Palladium? The predominate argument seems to be that characters are happy with who they are so why would they want to change? er..Ok.

Suppose I were a little farm boy from a planet with no magic, no technology higher than steel plows and I suddenly found myself in Phaseworld (maybe I hitched a ride on a slaveship). I have never experienced magic or martial arts or anything out-of-the-ordinary. I might be a 15th level farmer. Isn't it possible that I may want to re-invent myself, maybe by learning magic? Maybe by unlocking my third eye? Why is this such a taboo concept? People in the real world take up new professions, religions, hobbies, etc all the time and at every age. Why would this be different in a world with more possibilities?

Why is it so strange to think that someone that grew up in Coalition borders might not want to become a mage after the chance to explore the world and experiencing what magic really is?

its called back story for a reason...
why is cross classing not acceptable?
My Nightbane-dragon-godling-juicer-cosmoknight could explain it to you but he doubts you would understand.

[Display-Name-Alpha]

Ok. Why do you think chaging O.C.C.s is outlawed/taboo in Palladium? The predominate argument seems to be that characters are happy with who they are so why would they want to change? er..Ok.

Suppose I were a little farm boy from a planet with no magic, no technology higher than steel plows and I suddenly found myself in Phaseworld (maybe I hitched a ride on a slaveship). I have never experienced magic or martial arts or anything out-of-the-ordinary. I might be a 15th level farmer. Isn't it possible that I may want to re-invent myself, maybe by learning magic? Maybe by unlocking my third eye? Why is this such a taboo concept? People in the real world take up new professions, religions, hobbies, etc all the time and at every age. Why would this be different in a world with more possibilities?

Why is it so strange to think that someone that grew up in Coalition borders might not want to become a mage after the chance to explore the world and experiencing what magic really is?

its called back story for a reason...
why is cross classing not acceptable?
My Nightbane-dragon-godling-juicer-cosmoknight could explain it to you but he doubts you would understand.

You're mixing races, dragons and godlings. And the cosmoknight transformation states implicitly what happens when you become a cosmo knight. And right off the bat, you're Nightbane's supernatural regeneration would reject the Juicer augmentations.

Lets keep this in the realm of concept not LOL BUTTSPOWER.

15th Level Farmer wanting to learn Magic. Why can't he? Studies for a few years, learns the abilities of a level 1 Ley Line Walker. Sure, hes 40. But why not?

I kinda agree with Barna10. Why couldn't a level 10 commoner become a level 1, and advance as a CyberKnight, I mean... humans aren't BORN CyberKnights, humans aren't BORN mages. Where does the free will end?

[Damian Magecraft]

Ok. Why do you think chaging O.C.C.s is outlawed/taboo in Palladium? The predominate argument seems to be that characters are happy with who they are so why would they want to change? er..Ok.

Suppose I were a little farm boy from a planet with no magic, no technology higher than steel plows and I suddenly found myself in Phaseworld (maybe I hitched a ride on a slaveship). I have never experienced magic or martial arts or anything out-of-the-ordinary. I might be a 15th level farmer. Isn't it possible that I may want to re-invent myself, maybe by learning magic? Maybe by unlocking my third eye? Why is this such a taboo concept? People in the real world take up new professions, religions, hobbies, etc all the time and at every age. Why would this be different in a world with more possibilities?

Why is it so strange to think that someone that grew up in Coalition borders might not want to become a mage after the chance to explore the world and experiencing what magic really is?

its called back story for a reason...
why is cross classing not acceptable?
My Nightbane-dragon-godling-juicer-cosmoknight could explain it to you but he doubts you would understand.

You're mixing races, dragons and godlings. And the cosmoknight transformation states implicitly what happens when you become a cosmo knight. And right off the bat, you're Nightbane's supernatural regeneration would reject the Juicer augmentations.

Lets keep this in the realm of concept not LOL BUTTSPOWER.

15th Level Farmer wanting to learn Magic. Why can't he? Studies for a few years, learns the abilities of a level 1 Ley Line Walker. Sure, hes 40. But why not?

I kinda agree with Barna10. Why couldn't a level 10 commoner become a level 1, and advance as a CyberKnight, I mean... humans aren't BORN CyberKnights, humans aren't BORN mages. Where does the free will end?

sigh... sarcasm is wasted on the internet...
that 15th level farm boy that becomes a 1st level cyber-knight? that is back story... or are you going to play farm hand John Cloudtreader for the requisite length of time to get him to level 15 first?

[Killer Cyborg]

Ok. Why do you think chaging O.C.C.s is outlawed/taboo in Palladium?

It's not.

[Beatmeclever]

Changing classes isn't taboo, multi-classing IS. You cannot be a Ranger/Thief as you could in D&D. So, sorry, no Juicer/Rogue Scientist/Glitterboy Pilot.

[Cinos]

You can change classes in cannon all you want.

I will agree how Palladium games does it is silly and bad an illogical.

[tuvermage]

Changing classes happens a lot, both in real life and in game. I really enjoy when my players want to change classes because I actually made them have to find someone to teach them and then they have to go through 5 levels of training before they can become level 1 (note that the training levels are only 1500 xp per level) during training they have to roll on things that are second nature to the OCC, but because they are new at it they have to roll.

Characters learning magic has always been a fun one to do, not only because they don't get the PPE from years of training (so you have a level 15 farmboy who has, lets say, 10 PPE and trains to become a wizard. he gets a small increase in his Training class 5 PPE per level, it's hard to practice with only 10 PPE, I also make each new spell have a roll starting with the scroll conversion but instead of per level, it's per successful spell. if they fail their roll I make them roll on the fail scroll conversion table and it's lead to make funny situations.

But the point is changing classes is allowed and can be very fun

[drewkitty ~..~]

You can change classes in cannon all you want.

I will agree how Palladium games does it is silly and bad an illogical.

The only published canon changing class rules are in PF. [See the High Seas book for them.] So the only place you can canonly change class is in PF.

This does not stop GMs from importing the PF rules into the other settings.

However, the stickler is that the canon changing class rules only cover changing OCC's. So if the char is a PCC or has a RCC they have to stick to that class.
------------------------
There are the optional changing class rules posted in the cutting room floor, but they are of the PF setting also.

[barna10]

Palladium "canon" is illogical across the board. My ruling - "Do whatever works for your group"

barna10 - signing out (Palladium is dead to me.)

[Killer Cyborg]

Palladium "canon" is illogical across the board. My ruling - "Do whatever works for your group"

barna10 - signing out (Palladium is dead to me.)

So... I'm guessing that you don't like their rules for changing OCCs...?

[Akashic Soldier]

(Palladium is dead to me.)

Well that is a little extreme I think.

Changing classes seems pretty simple to me (I am sure it is listed in R:UE). I know a bunch of NPC's are multiple classes. There are a few of them in Juicer Uprising if I recall correctly.

You just freeze your old class, then earn enough experience points to get to the second level of the class you are changing too (normally 200-2500ish) then you become 1st level of that Class and can begin leveling up as that. Of course the GM should be careful because you'd end up with a bunch of folks bouncing from class to class because its faster to level as multiple low-level classes than level up to level 15. Or the GM could just say regardless of how many class combinations you take it caps at level 15.

For purposes of not becoming a useless chump I would use the characters total level to measure his H2H skills, but that is just me.

Not that any of this matters since Barna10 seems to have walked off in a huff. *scratches the end of his nose*

[drewkitty ~..~]

(Palladium is dead to me.)

Well that is a little extreme I think.

Changing classes seems pretty simple to me (I am sure it is listed in R:UE). I know a bunch of NPC's are multiple classes.

There are not. The only published canon rules for changing class are in the High Seas book. As I said above.

There are a few of them in Juicer Uprising if I recall correctly.

Only those that involve detoxing a juicer and converting a wantabe into a juicer.

You just freeze your old class, then earn enough experience points to get to the second level of the class you are changing too (normally 200-2500ish) then you become 1st level of that Class and can begin leveling up as that. Of course the GM should be careful because you'd end up with a bunch of folks bouncing from class to class because its faster to level as multiple low-level classes than level up to level 15. Or the GM could just say regardless of how many class combinations you take it caps at level 15.

For purposes of not becoming a useless chump I would use the characters total level to measure his H2H skills, but that is just me.

Not that any of this matters since Barna10 seems to have walked off in a huff. *scratches the end of his nose*

Those house rules there you are talking about.

[drewkitty ~..~]

So long as they present their house rule as their own house is there not to be upset about.
It is when they present their house rules as if they are canon, or if they do not claim their house rules as their house rules there there is cause to correct them.

[barna10]

(Palladium is dead to me.)

Not that any of this matters since Barna10 seems to have walked off in a huff. *scratches the end of his nose*

Not walking off in a huff, I'm breaking up with Palladium.

Palladium and I have had a long relationship that started around 1990. We've had tons of fun. Problem is I have become more sophisticated and Palladium games hasn't. We are still having the same arguments about this quirky system that we were having twenty years ago. Enough is enough.

[Killer Cyborg]

(Palladium is dead to me.)

Not that any of this matters since Barna10 seems to have walked off in a huff. *scratches the end of his nose*

Not walking off in a huff, I'm breaking up with Palladium.

Palladium and I have had a long relationship that started around 1990. We've had tons of fun. Problem is I have become more sophisticated and Palladium games hasn't. We are still having the same arguments about this quirky system that we were having twenty years ago. Enough is enough.

Dude, you started this thread asking a rules question, ignored the answers, declared that you were permanently done with Palladium, then came back to reiterate that last point.

The problem may not just be Palladium.

[barna10]

I didn't ask a rules question. I tried to start a discussion.

[TechnoGothic]

(Palladium is dead to me.)

Not that any of this matters since Barna10 seems to have walked off in a huff. *scratches the end of his nose*

Not walking off in a huff, I'm breaking up with Palladium.

Palladium and I have had a long relationship that started around 1990. We've had tons of fun. Problem is I have become more sophisticated and Palladium games hasn't. We are still having the same arguments about this quirky system that we were having twenty years ago. Enough is enough.

TO ANSWER YOU QUESTIOn in the OP.

OFFICAL RULES
1) Your OCC "FARMERS 15 lvl" is Frozen when you switch to a new OCC.
2) You get the New OCC Skills, abilities. If the new OCC skills repeat any skills you already have, those few skills are Unfrozen, as they are part of the new OCC too. They raise as your new OCC raises in level.
3) You Old OCC skills not repeated are frozen until your new OCC reaches 15th level.

You can become any OCC within reason. Psychic Classes are not allowed or Mystic styled classes.

Your Farmer could become a Cyber-Knight, as part of the CK OCC you gain the Psi-Sword. BUT unless you already had minor/major psychic powers you will gain addition psychic powers.

In this example. Ekul Reklawyks can become a CK, but not a Master psychic CK, unless he already had master level psychic ability.

Hope that helps.

HOWEVER...This is a MOOT point if the character in question has not been played yet.
The Offical Rules are for Characters already being played.

[Akashic Soldier]

(Palladium is dead to me.)

Well that is a little extreme I think.

Changing classes seems pretty simple to me (I am sure it is listed in R:UE). I know a bunch of NPC's are multiple classes.

There are not. The only published canon rules for changing class are in the High Seas book. As I said above.

There are a few of them in Juicer Uprising if I recall correctly.

Only those that involve detoxing a juicer and converting a wantabe into a juicer.

You just freeze your old class, then earn enough experience points to get to the second level of the class you are changing too (normally 200-2500ish) then you become 1st level of that Class and can begin leveling up as that. Of course the GM should be careful because you'd end up with a bunch of folks bouncing from class to class because its faster to level as multiple low-level classes than level up to level 15. Or the GM could just say regardless of how many class combinations you take it caps at level 15.

For purposes of not becoming a useless chump I would use the characters total level to measure his H2H skills, but that is just me.

Not that any of this matters since Barna10 seems to have walked off in a huff. *scratches the end of his nose*

Those house rules there you are talking about.

Read the NPCs. Those guys aren't detoxes and they have non-juicer classes.

Official Rules for class changes can be found in the cutting room floor section. (As posted by Kevin) and the R:UE errata.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The only published canon rules, that are in the current editions, are Only found in the High Seas Book.

I Just looked through the PDF posted for the RUE errata and there was nothing there that I could find talking even remotely about changing the class of one's char. (So support your claim they are in RUE "By Listing Book, Page, Paragraph" that supports your claim.

And yes I did mention the optional posted changing class rules in the PF cutting room floor.

As for the NPC,... have you noticed that the NPCs break the rules available to the PC's? So, cannonly speaking, they can not be used as precedent for anything but for making NPCs.

[Killer Cyborg]

I didn't ask a rules question. I tried to start a discussion.

...Why do you think chaging O.C.C.s is outlawed/taboo in Palladium? The predominate argument seems to be that characters are happy with who they are so why would they want to change? ...
... Isn't it possible that I may want to re-invent myself, maybe by learning magic? Maybe by unlocking my third eye? Why is this such a taboo concept? ... Why would this be different in a world with more possibilities?

Why is it so strange to think that someone that grew up in Coalition borders might not want to become a mage after the chance to explore the world and experiencing what magic really is?

Whatever you were trying to do, you asked not only "a" question, but seven of them.
All of which were based in the false notion that OCC changing is "outlawed/taboo" in Palladium.

But hell, let's say that you weren't asking any questions and that those things that look like question marks are just an infestation of tiny, tiny snakes that are trying to eat the periods at the end of some of your sentences.
Let's say you were trying to start a discussion.

You succeeded.

How's that relate to Palladium being Dead To You...?
(that's a question, btw, not a snake)

[drewkitty ~..~]

Too many.
And there are too many lemming that do not understand that some of us have had Years to think and discuss this topic and want to blindly not use their brains and think about things.

Warning: Comment on the post, not the poster.

[Akashic Soldier]

Too many.
And there are too many lemming that do not understand that some of us have had Years to think and discuss this topic and want to blindly not use their brains and think about things.

What kind of alternate Universe is this-That Drewkitty and I might agree?-

Kevin has posted detailed rules about class changes in the cutting room floor section on the official Website (and I am getting the latest update of the Rifts GMG to check if its there too) but if Kevin says "these are the rules" on this website and in Rifter (and where Drew mentioned it earlier), than I think its safe to say that is how he is going to handle it (and so should we.)

Then again, I am an idiot that hasn't had years to think on the subject and has the tenacity of liking the clear and crisp rules presented in Rifts: Ultimate Edition. Needless to say I am condemned to burn eternally in Palladium Book Lover's Hell for these atrocities.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Too many.
And there are too many lemming that do not understand that some of us have had Years to think and discuss this topic and want to blindly not use their brains and think about things.

What kind of alternate Universe is this-That Drewkitty and I might agree?-

Only that there are too many topics about changing classes.

The published canon changing class rules only cover OCC, nothing else. To go a step further, they only cover PF OCC's, so all the chars from the other settings are so Out Of Luck.

Things have gotten worse since PB decided not to do the proper editing of it's books where it's class labeling is involved and is not just calling everything OCC's.(*waves hand like I know I am exaggerating a bit*) So now the lemmings who can't see beyond the surface of the new idiotic class labeling scheme, scream the rules say they can. Even if the nature of the class says that they can not change class.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Kevin has posted detailed rules about class changes in the cutting room floor section on the official Website (and I am getting the latest update of the Rifts GMG to check if its there too) but if Kevin says "these are the rules" on this website and in Rifter (and where Drew mentioned it earlier), than I think its safe to say that is how he is going to handle it (and so should we.)

Even the posted (optional) changing class rules only cover PF chars. Look at what section they are posted under.

Yes, GMs are free to import what rules they want to their game, that does not affect what is the Published Canon.

[Akashic Soldier]

Yes, GMs are free to import what rules they want to their game, that does not affect what is the Published Canon.

53. Can a Achilles Neo-Human R.C.C. have an O.C.C.? If so which ones can I chose from? Do I get both the RCC and OCC skills? Would I use the RCC exp. table or the OCC exp. table?
Answer: Yes they can elect to take a O.C.C. at a later level. Use the rules for changing O.C.C. (tall their powers and abilities from the Neo-Human are frozen).

Are the Neo-Humans from South America an optional R.C.C. too or are they published canon?

[Killer Cyborg]

Kevin has posted detailed rules about class changes in the cutting room floor section on the official Website (and I am getting the latest update of the Rifts GMG to check if its there too) but if Kevin says "these are the rules" on this website and in Rifter (and where Drew mentioned it earlier), than I think its safe to say that is how he is going to handle it (and so should we.)

Yup.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Are the Neo-Humans from South America an optional R.C.C. too or are they published canon?

Unless they changed things in the later printing the Neo Human race is a fully canon race available to be PC's w/o restriction, except that they have to take the Neo-human RCC.


The term "optional Player Char" is just PB's way of saying something like "these are not recommended as Player chars, but available to be PCs" or something like "these chars can be a pain in the democrat and can be easily abused by the players".

[Akashic Soldier]

Are the Neo-Humans from South America an optional R.C.C. too or are they published canon?

Unless they changed things in the later printing the Neo Human race is a fully canon race available to be PC's w/o restriction, except that they have to take the Neo-human RCC.


The term "optional Player Char" is just PB's way of saying something like "these are not recommended as Player chars, but available to be PCs" or something like "these chars can be a pain in the democrat and can be easily abused by the players".

Then if that is the case the dual class rules posted by Kevin on this site must be an official part of Kevin's Megaverse otherwise this R.C.C could not utilize them.

The Official Rules for Changing O.C.C. in Palladium (Rifts).

[drewkitty ~..~]

The Official Rules for Changing O.C.C. in Palladium (Rifts).

Nice of you to post a link to the old posted optional PF changing class rules.

The Published Changing Class rules are in the PF: High Seas book.
---------------------------------------------------------
Because the Neo-Human RCC is tied up with the race's powers they can not change their class, and should of been labeled a Racial Psionic Char Class. So the FAQ is blatantly wrong when they used that answer for that question. This is besides the fact that there is not changing class rules for rifts.

[Killer Cyborg]

The Official Rules for Changing O.C.C. in Palladium (Rifts).

Nice of you to post a link to the old posted optional PF changing class rules.

Care to quote the part that states it's optional?
I must have missed it.

[Akashic Soldier]

Care to quote the part that states it's optional?
I must have missed it.

Or where it says that is exclusively for Palladium Fantasy!

[drewkitty ~..~]

The dual class rules were posted in the PF cutting room floor.

The dual class rules have never been published.

[Akashic Soldier]

The dual class rules were posted in the PF cutting room floor.

The dual class rules have never been published.

They're still official (and they are no longer in the PF section, or at least these ones arent. They're in OOPS. Which is stuff they accidentally forgot to put in. The Cutting Room Floor is official as errata. As such. There you go. Use it or dont. There's no reason to make a drama out of it just because its not on the page of a Rifts book you own.

[Killer Cyborg]

The dual class rules were posted in the PF cutting room floor.

The dual class rules have never been published.

So?

[drewkitty ~..~]

If you have to have internet access and a computer then it is not canon.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you have to have internet access and a computer then it is not canon.

Source?

[drewkitty ~..~]

turn off you comp and try to access anything on-line to support your claim


thus only published books are canon, those that can get on-line have the optional stuff that are on-line

[Akashic Soldier]

turn off you comp and try to access anything on-line to support your claim


thus only published books are canon, those that can get on-line have the optional stuff that are on-line

Not according to the cutting room floor write up.

By your logic if I don't own Traix II (which I don't) nothing in it is canon. This is not the case. Lets use White Wolf as an example. They frequently would publish eBooks, these were legitimate books with legitimate canon rules. However if your PC was turned off you could not access them. Now lets bring it back to Lemuria... if I get my Lemuria PDF and my computer is tuned off so I can't access it does that mean that Lemuria isn't canon? Of course not! You just have a chip on your shoulder over this for some reason that I can't understand.

It was an issue, it has been addressed, the problem is solved. Yet people like the OP and yourself continue to cry out in outrage. I just don't get it!?

[drewkitty ~..~]

I don't have triax2 so I do not know what canon is in it. Not that it is not canon.

If KS wants to make the posted rules canon he should publish them.

[Akashic Soldier]

I don't have triax2 so I do not know what canon is in it. Not that it is not canon.

If KS wants to make the posted rules canon he should publish them.

Who dictates canon? If its Kevin than the red text that says this is OFFICIAL errata and answers to rules questions etc should be enough. This is the future, websites are published, it is published on this website. It is published. Its not in a book but its there because for whatever reason it was forgotten or left out. Just accept it and be happy.

[Killer Cyborg]

turn off you comp and try to access anything on-line to support your claim

thus only published books are canon, those that can get on-line have the optional stuff that are on-line

That makes about as much sense as saying, "Close your books and try to read any of the rules inside. Thus, nothing in the books is canon."

[llywelyn]

That makes about as much sense as saying, "Close your books and try to read any of the rules inside. Thus, nothing in the books is canon."

More to the point, by definition, the errata is stuff that should have been in the books and got caught too late.

Why wouldn't it count?

[TechnoGothic]

The Books are just Guidelines anyways. Nothing in them is written in Stone

[Killer Cyborg]

That makes about as much sense as saying, "Close your books and try to read any of the rules inside. Thus, nothing in the books is canon."

More to the point, by definition, the errata is stuff that should have been in the books and got caught too late.

Why wouldn't it count?

Exactly.

[Hendrik]

Hmmm,

I think the initial question of the OP is a worthy one:

Why do you think chaging O.C.C.s is outlawed/taboo in Palladium? Why is ... [changing class] ... so strange to think that someone that grew up in Coalition borders might not want to become a mage after the chance to explore the world and experiencing what magic really is?

As the OP said and someone so rightly pointed out it is about CHANGING classes not having two or more at the same time, the latter of which would IMO not work at all under Palladium rules. Now back to the class change, allow me to paraphrase and then try to answer:

(i) Is there any good reason to not allow class changes?
(ii) If not (or one would want it in any case) how would one go about it?

(i) IS THERE A GOOD REASON TO NOT ALLOW CLASS CHANGES (but "duh!" or "not canon")?
The only good reason that I can see to forbid a class change completely would be "balancing" or to disallow "cherry picking", but I find none of those arguments compulsive. Logic dictates that it should be possible - I like the Lucas Airtreader (as said so nicely above, although the name was a wee bit different) example. There are many others in literature or real life.

(ii) IF YOU WANT CLASS CHANGES ... HOW?
The remaining question therefore would only be - provided you subscribe to the above instead of just saying "nah, I still don't want it", which would be ok, too - HOW to go about it. Personally, I find this interesting discussion regarding what is and what isn't canon is beating a dead horse. Essentially, I think that discussing whether or not rule X is canon is really beside the issue, or rather: IMHO much, much less interesting and meaningful than an answer to the question "how can a class change work under Palladium rules auspices?"

Allow me to suggest to discuss HOW a class change might work under Palladium rules.

THE RULES "AS ARE"
The cutting room floor rule is IMVHO thankfully short but not really good, and neither is the rule in Adventure on the High Seas (ibid, page 10). The rules in AotHS and on the cutting room floor are quite similar in spirit.

In particular and with both, I am not happy at all with "freezing skills" because I think that in its generality (in the example: all Farmer OCC skills that are not matched by Cyberknight OCC skills) is meshugge. Further within the example: The farmerboy from planet Armpit-O'Univers will not forget how to tend farming robots or shoot the breeze when he becomes a cyberknight. Neither would he not continue to be able to repair etc. robots, just because that is not part of what a Cyberknight OCC has. True, he will likely not use many of his Farmboy OCC skills or abilities, but if he must ... why the heck not? Why should he not be able to get further levels in those skills? The point should be which skills, how and when he still uses it when under the new class, not whether or not the skills are part and parcel to both classes. Regarding PCCs: I do not see the sense to restrict that, the cutting room rule there seems superior as it allows changes from RCC/OCC/PCC to OCC/PCC and, I would think, if you are the right race to a RCC as well.

CUTTING TO THE CHASE
Personally, I admit - and I know this is a bit of letdown now - to have no firm idea how to accomodate class changes in Palladium. I never had the situation occur and admit to have beaten it down at least once with "no I do not allow it"; however, I perceive my past verdict as dumb now. Anyway, the rule complexes - skills, HtH boni, etc. - are quite varied and class is very much associated with a certain "skill pack" and that makes a class change difficult rules-wise as you maybe you should not give a guy a complete new skill pack just because he decides to change horses in mid-race.

The following is how I think it might be handled and I would be very happy to see it discussed as I am undecided on how to really do it but have the firm conviction that there MUST be a rule for it:

1. COMPARE CLASSES / GET TO REALLY UNDERSTAND THE FROM WHENCE TO WHERE:
I would look at the old class (and I would not care whether it is a OCC or PCC) and the new class (dito.) and see where there are similarities and what is different.

2. ASSESS WHETHER THE CHANGE IS LEGITIMATE / COOL / MAKES SENSE:
Then - as GM - I would decide but also discuss with the player

(a) why the change should be possible (is it carried by the background?) and
(b) how the player thinks he can affect that change (is there a teacher? aside from XP, how much time and perhaps money or deeds are necessary to become a level 1 [new class]?). Is it necessary to find Soda the Green Alien (teacher), do I have to kill the Dark-Queen-Transmogrified-Into-A-Dragon-Who-Is-My-Mother-And-Speaks-with-a-raspy-Voice, does Cyberknight-U charge high tuition fees, do I need to have the right amount of medium sodium chloride in my blood to be accepted in the first place, etc. etc?
You know, not hard game engine restriction but soft prerequisites, roleplaying stuff...

3. DEAL WITH IT:
Then the hard engine DIY-kit would kick in and I would ...

(a) Either make up a new "combo OCC", e.g. the "Cyberknighted Farmboy OCC", deciding on all the stuff like which skills are available at which boni (if any on skill areas), how many new skills are available at which level, etc. That would basically be "recalibrating the farmer". I think this is the smoothest solution, even if it may give stuff to quick ... but then it would be up to the GM to adjust that and it would allow a pretty (hopefully) elegant way to reflect the real life possibility of changing professions or to allow "Conan's occupational development track".
(b) Or, I would just say that "ok, you get the trappings (weapon stuff) and access to special abilities at level 1 when you make the next level, but learning skills will take more time, you now have the Cyberknight OCC skill area boni but you will only benefit from them when and as you level, as per the OCC rules". The latter would be painfully slow, but then again why not.

4. DO SOME SKILLS HAVE TO BE FREEZED (individual decisions on a case to case basis)?:
More hard rules stuff! Maybe ... on a case to case basis ... I would really freeze a couple of skills - clarification "freeze" does not mean not usable anymore but just does not gain "skill level % increases" any more, because there IS a very good argument that a guy who runs around bringing justice about in the universe will still know how to farm but his farming ability will not improve because of him neglecting this particular skill.

I know that's only half-baked, but I would be extremely happy if I now could see your ideas or have mine discussed.

Cheers
Hendrik

[Armorlord]

That makes about as much sense as saying, "Close your books and try to read any of the rules inside. Thus, nothing in the books is canon."

More to the point, by definition, the errata is stuff that should have been in the books and got caught too late.

Why wouldn't it count?

Exactly.

Indeed.

[Hendrik]

ALTERNATIVE CLASS CHANGE RULES (proposal)

The following will not work for all Palladium systems. In Heroes Unlimited I don’t see any need for it (at all), and BtS in my mind requires no rules for class changes, but it could work for e.g. fantasy and rifts:

All the following effects of a class change will come into effect upon the character reaching the next level (as per his old class if that is more expensive, as per the new class if that is more expensive). He will then level the next time as per the XP cost of the next level of his new class. If the new class has a lower XP cost than the old class, for example a Cyberknight becoming a Farmer, any excess XP above those needed to reach the new Farmer level would be shaved off. The latter sounds worse than it is, but it is necessary I think to keep progression in XP table clean.

For example: A 4th level Farmer OCC character wants to change class to the Cyberknight OCC. The Cyberknight reaches 5th level at 17,521. Let's say the Farmer OCC reaches 5th level at 14,101. What will happen is that the player MUST decide to become a Cyberknight before he becomes a 5th level farmer. He then starts to work towards changing to the Cyberknight class at his "overall level 5" which he will reach at 17,521 XP. He will then be a 5th level Cyberknight OCC ([i]not as good as his brother Cyberknights at the same level as you will see below, but hey not all of them know how to farm, right?). [/i]

The following effects kick in upon reaching the new class, at that time:

- The character does not gain any of the typical Occupational, Elective, Secondary skills of his new class automatically. You DO NOT get a second complete skill pack! However, the GM may decide to grant you a few typical skills that would usually be from the “Occupational” selection of the new class immediately. That will usually not be more than 1D4-1 and will as a rule be restricted to such skills you simply MUST have to work as that class.

- The character MUST develop any new skills as per the normal rules, i.e. as per the no. of skills / level rule for the new class. The first new class skills will be acquired upon reaching the first level in the new class (in the example above upon becoming a 5th level Cyberknight). This simulates that training and changing to a new profession requires time and effort.

- Now we have to decide which skills are frozen and which will continue to develop (%-increase per SKILL level) under the auspices of the new class:

* For this you compare the skills theoretically available to each class.
* All skills that are doubled, i.e. that both classes have, and that you have at the time already will remain the same and will continue to level, i.e. benefit from %/level increases.
* All skills that the old class has (and you have at the time), but are not part of the skill selection of the new class, will also continue to level, unless such advancement necessitates actually using the skill, i.e. if they require active improvement, and such activity does not fit with the new class. Unused or unusable skills in this context will be frozen at the level they had before the class change.

- SDC gains will happen according to the gains as per the new class.

- H2H combat is not changed by the class change, unless the GM allows such change in exchange for a number of skill selections (2 or 3 usually) as per the rules.

- “Special Abilities” or “Class Abilities” are a bit complicated, but easy if you see it as similar to skill levels. Upon reaching the next level, the character maybe a “nth level new class character” but that counts mostly for skill gain rhythm (@ level 1,3,5, and so forth) and XP cost for next level. For the purposes of gaining the new classes’ special abilities treat the character as “level 1” and then progress in the special abilities as per the normal rules. For example, if a new class has 4 special abilities at level 1 and a 5th one and level 3, our 5th level new class character (actually the 1st level in the new class) would immediately receive ALL “1st level special abilities” but get the next one at “3rd level”, i.e. in the example at character level 7.

- Magic spells or psionics: Treat that similar like special abilities. You get what you would have gotten at first level (or less if the GM so determines) and the progress normally and as your roleplaying and GM allow.

Cheers
Hendrik

PS: A note on class changes in BtS

BtS is particularly dear to me. I think that a class change there would not work so well for 2 reasons.

Item 1: PCC
I do not think you can change the PCCs in BtS because they describe WHAT YOU ARE. You do not choose to become a Latent Psychic or a Genius, you are and remain either or.

Item 2: OCCUPATION
I also do not think it would work regarding the Occupation (I see it as possible, why not change your "real life" profession?), but XP progression in BtS is not coupled to the Occupation (like "Policeman", "Criminal", etc) so it would in the least be extremely difficult to implement rules for Occupation changes.