How to throw a grenade?

[Hendrik]

Hi there,

this question may be idotic, but it arose in my quest to now finally play as much as I can within the rules:

what is the canon answer to "HOW TO THROW A GRENADE" (I know how in RL, but what W.P. / skill etc. do you use in-game)?

I know how it would work with a grenade launcher ... there is a corresponding W.P. Now, how to use the PC / NPC's grubby little hands?

Thanks!

Cheers
Hendrik

[Akashic Soldier]

W.P. Targeting covers all thrown weapons.

[Hendrik]

W.P. Targeting covers all thrown weapons.

I am such an idiot.

Thanks, AS, of course. I should say that I am familiar with that W.P. I just never thought about it in terms of grenades.

And, I just see that my question was phrased somewhat asiniely as well. It is naturally a STRIKE roll. Still, I was wondering if there is a W.P. as well, or - you never know - if it is not a strike roll what skill it would then be (athletics check).

[drewkitty ~..~]

WP Targeting will get you the throwing aspect of using grenades but for all other uses of them (throwing one is just a h2h strike roll if you have no WP bonuses) and skill knowledge about them the WP grenade in N&S is the Skill for you.

[Hendrik]

WP Targeting will get you the throwing aspect of using grenades but for all other uses of them (throwing one is just a h2h strike roll if you have no WP bonuses) and skill knowledge about them the WP grenade in N&S is the Skill for you.

Thank you, drewkitty! I did not think to look it up in N&S, although I now think along the lines that WP Targeting would be fine.

Come to think of it, and I know this may be seen as an errant thought, but do you or anyone else also think that maybe the athletic skill should help a bit? I mean, kids trained e.g. in baseball seem to have a better/keener throw than those of us not so trained. I guess I would give a baseball player a bonus for lobbing grenades.

[glitterboy2098]

the big question for me is 'how far can you throw a grenade?" presumably this would be tied to one's P.S. attribute 'in real life'

[Mercdog]

Well, going by the Targeting WP coupled with the Throwing rules under Weight and Movement in Dead Reign (it's all I have with me), I'd theorize maximum throwing range for a grenade (weight roughly equivalent to a Brick or Stone) to be 50 feet plus 1 foot per point of P.S..

[Hendrik]

the big question for me is 'how far can you throw a grenade?" presumably this would be tied to one's P.S. attribute 'in real life'

Well, going by the Targeting WP coupled with the Throwing rules under Weight and Movement in Dead Reign (it's all I have with me), I'd theorize maximum throwing range for a grenade (weight roughly equivalent to a Brick or Stone) to be 50 feet plus 1 foot per point of P.S..

I am just now looking at the same rule segment in BtS (page 135 of BTS-II).

The modern fragmentation handgrenade (roundish / pineapple shape) weighs about 400 grams. The MK-2 grenade used by the US in the 2nd WW weighs in with 0.595 grams (1 lb. 5 ounces). The German model 24 Stielhandgranate (potato masher) looks more ungainly, but weighed the same 0.595 grams (1 lb. 5 ounces), but what looks ungainly effectively increased the range by a bit (50% according to the "ever wise" wikipedia).

According to Gary's U.S. Infantry Weapons Reference Guide the effective range of the MK-2 is 30 metres (100 feet) and about 40 metres (131 feet) for the more modern, lighter, US fragmentation grenade variants.

According to the "Weight and Movement" rules in the Strength attribute section of the BtS-II rules, range is calculated as follows:

- objects up to 0.45 grams add 0.3 metres per 1 P.S., i.e. a P.S. of 10 would add 3 metres to effective range
- objects between 0.45 grams and 4.5 kilos get half this added, i.e. 1.5 metres for a P.S. of 10

As you, Mercdog, I have now looked at the W.P. targeting. Allow me to elaborate as I think there are 2 possible answers.

A grenade is made for throwing (check). Therefore, it gets a better range than the one for "ungainly objects not designed for throwing", like a frying pan, but at minimum it must be in the "stone / brick"-bracket, i.e. 50 feet (15.2 metres) (check). That is already an answer that would make me happy enough, i.e. the average Joe with a P.S. of 10 would be able to throw a WW II grenade about 20 metres, a lighter (simplified: modern) version about 30 metres.

However, as a grenade is well-shaped (made to be thrown), so it should as a rule / on average go farther than a brick that is not made to be thrown (however much some people may use them for exactly that), assuming two throwers of equal strength etc.

Now, let's go on because of that and because the good drewkitty pointed us to N&S let's go there. I have rumaged through that good book. The W.P. grenade (N&S p. 43; which as a W.P. by the way strikes me as superfluous) gives no information on range, but the equipment section features an "explosive grenade" and gives a range of 30 metres (100 feet) at a mere weight of 10 ounces (283 grams; N&S page 154). Let's forget about the peculiar light weight of that grenade, and just take the 30 metres as the basis, which also seems to be in keeping with realistic effective range numbers.

Then the range for Private Joe would be 33 metres (30+3) for a light grenade and 31.5 metres (30+1.5) for a heavier WW-II grenade. Both numbers I should like to say pretty much in keeping with the "real" numbers as found on Gary's page. For a potato masher I would either increase the P.S. bonus on range by 50% (Private Joe could then throw that grenade 32.25 metres) or the base effective range (which would then be 45 metres, the P.S. boni would stay the same).

Of course, guys with supernatural strength or even "just" above average P.S. could get that (good) bit farther.

Cheers
Hendrik

[Jerell]

WP Targeting will get you the throwing aspect of using grenades but for all other uses of them (throwing one is just a h2h strike roll if you have no WP bonuses) and skill knowledge about them the WP grenade in N&S is the Skill for you.

Thank you, drewkitty! I did not think to look it up in N&S, although I now think along the lines that WP Targeting would be fine.

Come to think of it, and I know this may be seen as an errant thought, but do you or anyone else also think that maybe the athletic skill should help a bit? I mean, kids trained e.g. in baseball seem to have a better/keener throw than those of us not so trained. I guess I would give a baseball player a bonus for lobbing grenades.

I would also give a baseball (or dodgeball player for that matter, lol) player a bonus to throw a grenade. The current standard US grenade is about the size of a baseball. I believe it was intended that way because, "any American boy should be able to throw a baseball."

[drewkitty ~..~]

I thought this would be a good spot to post the Baseball skill I had written a while back for N&S. However, that file has gotten corrupted in the past couple years or the newest OS upgrade does not read the file. *shrugs*

ATB2 has a baseball skill. It has a few different specializations in it.
Baseball (Pitcher): 60+4--67
+2 S pitching +1 @ L's 3, 6, 9, 12, 15
+20% throwing range

[Mercdog]

the big question for me is 'how far can you throw a grenade?" presumably this would be tied to one's P.S. attribute 'in real life'

Well, going by the Targeting WP coupled with the Throwing rules under Weight and Movement in Dead Reign (it's all I have with me), I'd theorize maximum throwing range for a grenade (weight roughly equivalent to a Brick or Stone) to be 50 feet plus 1 foot per point of P.S..

I am just now looking at the same rule segment in BtS (page 135 of BTS-II).

The modern fragmentation handgrenade (roundish / pineapple shape) weighs about 400 grams. The MK-2 grenade used by the US in the 2nd WW weighs in with 0.595 grams (1 lb. 5 ounces). The German model 24 Stielhandgranate (potato masher) looks more ungainly, but weighed the same 0.595 grams (1 lb. 5 ounces), but what looks ungainly effectively increased the range by a bit (50% according to the "ever wise" wikipedia).

According to Gary's U.S. Infantry Weapons Reference Guide the effective range of the MK-2 is 30 metres (100 feet) and about 40 metres (131 feet) for the more modern, lighter, US fragmentation grenade variants.

According to the "Weight and Movement" rules in the Strength attribute section of the BtS-II rules, range is calculated as follows:

- objects up to 0.45 grams add 0.3 metres per 1 P.S., i.e. a P.S. of 10 would add 10 metres to effective range- objects between 0.45 grams and 4.5 kilos get half this added, i.e. 5 metres for a P.S. of 10

As you, Mercdog, I have now looked at the W.P. targeting. Allow me to elaborate as I think there are 2 possible answers.

A grenade is made for throwing (check). Therefore, it gets a better range than the one for "ungainly objects not designed for throwing", like a frying pan, but at minimum it must be in the "stone / brick"-bracket, i.e. 50 feet (15.2 metres) (check). That is already an answer that would make me happy enough, i.e. the average Joe with a P.S. of 10 would be able to throw a WW II grenade about 20 metres, a lighter (simplified: modern) version about 30 metres.

However, as a grenade is well-shaped (made to be thrown), so it should as a rule / on average go farther than a brick that is not made to be thrown (however much some people may use them for exactly that), assuming two throwers of equal strength etc.

Now, let's go on because of that and because the good drewkitty pointed us to N&S let's go there. I have rumaged through that good book. The W.P. grenade (N&S p. 43; which as a W.P. by the way strikes me as superfluous) gives no information on range, but the equipment section features an "explosive grenade" and gives a range of 30 metres (100 feet) at a mere weight of 10 ounces (283 grams; N&S page 154). Let's forget about the peculiar light weight of that grenade, and just take the 30 metres as the basis, which also seems to be in keeping with realistic effective range numbers.

Then the range for Private Joe would be 40 metres (30+10) for a light grenade and 35 metres (30+5) for a heavier WW-II grenade. Both numbers I should like to say pretty much in keeping with the "real" numbers as found on Gary's page. For a potato masher I would increase the P.S. bonus on range by 50%, so Private Joe could throw that 37.5 metres.

Of course, guys with supernatural strength or even "just" above average P.S. could get that (good) bit farther.

Cheers
Hendrik

Actually, it would be 3 meters.

Your math is a little off due to the metric conversion from feet, but I see where you're coming from. Well done Hendrik.

[Beatmeclever]

Having thrown a grenade or two in my life, I'd just like to say here that it is not like throwing a baseball. You don't so much throw it as lob it. Greater accuracy and the ability to put it over enemy barriers vs. range. The baseball and sporting methods don't work. What Hendriks posted is closer than anything.

[Hendrik]

Having thrown a grenade or two in my life, I'd just like to say here that it is not like throwing a baseball. You don't so much throw it as lob it. Greater accuracy and the ability to put it over enemy barriers vs. range. The baseball and sporting methods don't work. What Hendriks posted is closer than anything.

Thank you, Beatmeclever. Having some pratical experience myself, I think the ranges work (although if anything they are a bit too big as you rightly say, throwing a grenade is not about distance but about throwing it "just right"). I just love it how an allegedly simple system has so much common sense and logic under its hood.

That said, in my experience people with a good feel for a ball (handball, water polo, baseball, football (not soccer unless you are Maradona), etc.) are a tad better at lobbing a grenade. Having now looked at the athletic skill again, this actually is already figured in, albeit in a small way only. The athletic skill yields a +1 on P.S. ... thus, it gives a bit of a distance advantage for grenade throwing already. If you want it to do even better than that, the baseball skill (and similar sports skills, only 1 should count, though) by drewkitty would work, or just say that athletics further gives a onetime +1 Strike on throwing grenades.

Actually, it would be 3 meters.
Your math is a little off due to the metric conversion from feet, but I see where you're coming from. Well done Hendrik.

*groan* ... ... 0.3x10=3 (not 10); 3/5=1.5 (not 5) ... *Hendrik slaps himself* ... Thank you, Mercdog!

NUMBERS NOW CORRECTED IN MY POST ABOVE

Kind regards
Hendrik

[Jerell]

Having thrown a grenade or two in my life, I'd just like to say here that it is not like throwing a baseball. You don't so much throw it as lob it. Greater accuracy and the ability to put it over enemy barriers vs. range. The baseball and sporting methods don't work. What Hendriks posted is closer than anything.

Agreed. I prefer to lob myself. Some of my boys do throw it conventionally though, and they're fairly good.

I thought this would be a good spot to post the Baseball skill I had written a while back for N&S. However, that file has gotten corrupted in the past couple years or the newest OS upgrade does not read the file. *shrugs*

ATB2 has a baseball skill. It has a few different specializations in it.
Baseball (Pitcher): 60+4--67
+2 S pitching +1 @ L's 3, 6, 9, 12, 15
+20% throwing range

You know? I think it is a good time to post it.

[Razzinold]

This is how a grenade works:

"And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff "

lol, sorry I couldn't resist. I like the formulas people posted to figure out throwing distances and stuff like that, we don't normally go that in depth when we play. I kind of ball parked distances vs PS and then the players roll a 20 to "strike" the area. Then depending on how far off they were from the target number assigned I see if their grenade landed close enough to still inflict damage (taking the grenade blast radius damage into account as well)

[SpiritInterface]

Having thrown a grenade or two in my life, I'd just like to say here that it is not like throwing a baseball. You don't so much throw it as lob it. Greater accuracy and the ability to put it over enemy barriers vs. range. The baseball and sporting methods don't work. What Hendriks posted is closer than anything.

I was taught that it is more like a shotputt than than a throw.

1) Put the grenade in the palm of your hand with the spoon in the web of your hand.
2) Pull pin.
3) Draw your arm up to your shoulder.
4) Push your hand up and forward away from your body in the direction you wish the grenade to go.

[dragonfett]

Don't forget that he also asked about grenade launchers. Those would use the Heavy Military Weapons WP or Heavy MD Weapons WP (depending on the GM and the explosive output of said grenade, i.e. SD damage or MD damage).

[jedi078]

The root of this problem is that there are too many WP's that cover too many weapons. For example a grenade launcher, rocket launcher, flamethrower and mortar do not have the same type of operation, hence they should all be separate WP's and not be lazily lumped together into WP Heavy Weapons.

Likewise as others have pointed out throwing hand grenade is nothing like throwing a dart, rock or ninja star. So Hand Grenades should have their own WP.

[dragonfett]

The root of this problem is that there are too many WP's that cover too many weapons. For example a grenade launcher, rocket launcher, flamethrower and mortar do not have the same type of operation, hence they should all be separate WP's and not be lazily lumped together into WP Heavy Weapons.

Likewise as others have pointed out throwing hand grenade is nothing like throwing a dart, rock or ninja star. So Hand Grenades should have their own WP.

I would say that throwing a grenade is more like throwing a rock, if anything. Now granted I have never thrown a grenade in my life (drat), however I feel for the purpose of game mechanics, it ought to be close enough to work.

I do agree that flamethrowers should not be in the same category of weapons as rocket launchers

I know I was going to write more, but damned if I can remember what it was since I got distracted by homemade egg, sausage, and cheese biscuits.

[jedi078]

I would say that throwing a grenade is more like throwing a rock, if anything. Now granted I have never thrown a grenade in my life (drat), however I feel for the purpose of game mechanics, it ought to be close enough to work.

Actually you throw a grenade in such a manner where it will arc, ideally so it lands in an enemy foxhole, around a door/wall/corner etc etc.

Also if the rock bounces off a tree and flies back towards you or you drop it at your feet you don't have to worry about it blowing up.

[dragonfett]

I would say that throwing a grenade is more like throwing a rock, if anything. Now granted I have never thrown a grenade in my life (drat), however I feel for the purpose of game mechanics, it ought to be close enough to work.

Actually you throw a grenade in such a manner where it will arc, ideally so it lands in an enemy foxhole, around a door/wall/corner etc etc.

Also if the rock bounces off a tree and flies back towards you or you drop it at your feet you don't have to worry about it blowing up.

That is true, but the motions are still the same. Either over hand or under hand.

[Looonatic]

Deadball grenades > regular grenades.

[jedi078]

I would say that throwing a grenade is more like throwing a rock, if anything. Now granted I have never thrown a grenade in my life (drat), however I feel for the purpose of game mechanics, it ought to be close enough to work.

Actually you throw a grenade in such a manner where it will arc, ideally so it lands in an enemy foxhole, around a door/wall/corner etc etc.

Also if the rock bounces off a tree and flies back towards you or you drop it at your feet you don't have to worry about it blowing up.

That is true, but the motions are still the same. Either over hand or under hand.

From the 10 or so live grenades I've had to throw I can honestly say it's not the same.

[dragonfett]

Does it really matter all that much though?

[jedi078]

Does it really matter all that much though?

IMO yes, which is why I have WP grenade in my games. I do let people at there PP bonus to the strike roll.

[Reagren Wright]

Of course you could go into Ninja and Superspies Revised (or old addition) and use the W.P. Grenade Skill.
I maybe wrong but I believe it goes something like this +1 on levels 1,4,7,and 11. I might be wrong.