Parrying Bullets

[Severus Snape]

I've been asked by 2 players in one of my games about parrying firearms. Specifically, can you use a parry to push the firearm out of the way so that it shoots in a different direction?

We've all seen Steven Segal in the movies push guns out of the way, or comic book characters grab the gun away from a bad guy. But is this a parry, or is it a strike? My players think they should be able to use a parry, while I see this as a strike or a disarm.

I'm trying to be fair, and I hate saying "I'm the GM, so deal with it", so I'm posing the question here. What do you guys think? Is a parry applicable in this situation?

[Jorel]

I think you're right in that they aren't physically attacking with the gun itself. The player would have to have initiative over the NPC (or whoever) and target the weapon. Parrying would be targeting the bullet, which is less likely. Only way you are parrying by hitting a firearm, is if your being hit with that firearm and not shot with it.

[Mercdog]

If they're actually close enough to push the gun away, I'm leaning towards "Yes", it can be ruled as a parry. But, I'm thinking, that it would not be considered an "Automatic" Parry, and would cost them an attack from their Attacks per Melee. But I tend to think that way it should be handled anytime someone who's unarmed is trying to Parry an attack from someone who is armed.

[Armorlord]

I've been asked by 2 players in one of my games about parrying firearms. Specifically, can you use a parry to push the firearm out of the way so that it shoots in a different direction?

We've all seen Steven Segal in the movies push guns out of the way, or comic book characters grab the gun away from a bad guy. But is this a parry, or is it a strike? My players think they should be able to use a parry, while I see this as a strike or a disarm.

I'm trying to be fair, and I hate saying "I'm the GM, so deal with it", so I'm posing the question here. What do you guys think? Is a parry applicable in this situation?

If they are actually in melee with the gunman, then certainly allow them parry the weapon. That's why gunmen shouldn't get that close, once you close against someone with a ranged weapon, all their advantages just went out the window until they can put some distance between them again.
Grabbing the gun is certainly a strike or disarm, but pushing the weapon away when they try to line up a shot within arms' reach is a parry.

[MaxxSterling]

To me, parrying is after the attack has initiated, so to parry, they would be trying to slap a bullet out of the air. If they are close enough though, I think a Disarm action is completely logical, but it'd be considered a disarm, not a parry. Unless of course the gunman was trying to club them to death with the gun as a blunt weapon.

[Armorlord]

To me, parrying is after the attack has initiated, so to parry, they would be trying to slap a bullet out of the air. If they are close enough though, I think a Disarm action is completely logical, but it'd be considered a disarm, not a parry. Unless of course the gunman was trying to club them to death with the gun as a blunt weapon.

Initiating dodge or parry is before the shot is fired, otherwise there is no chance for defense. As in, by the rules, unless you can see an attacker or otherwise sense the attack you have no defense against any ranged weapons. If they are far away it is harder to avoid ranged fire, if they are close at hand then H2H bonuses can apply. Parrying projectiles requires augmented reflexes and a suitable weapon. None of which would help against attacks traveling at the speed of light if you were trying it after they'd been fired.

[Bill]

Grabbing the gun is an entangle, which is a standard defensive maneuver available to all combat trained characters. There aren't specific rules for firing a weapon held by an opponent. I'd let you try for it at a -5 to your entangle check and -6 (shooting wild) to the attack roll against a target; no strike bonuses apply to either roll, though a contested strength check may be necessary against some opponents.

[Sasqaricious]

The way I would rule it for parrying a gun, and that is if someone was in range to do so (In melee range) is would be parry roll, but I would also rule it uses an attack. Why I say it is not a strike roll, as I believe the bonus should be the parry as where as the gunman is trying to specifically aim at you, the defender is just simply trying to move it so it does not hit them. (This going on the the theory that is mostly true of parrying bonus higher then strike bonus.)

[mastermesh]

yep. it's an entangle and will require an action/attack per melee to do since it's not auto. However... I think some super powers like bend light let you parry lasers and stuff like that, so it might, at gm discretion be possible to parry with some power or psionic thing such at telekenesis, etc. but it likely will use an attack.

[SpiritInterface]

What you are talking about is not parrying the gun per say dut redirecting its aim. That would be a specific attack similar to an entangle. It would be a two part manuver, the first part would be the grab, and the second part would be trying to hit your intended target. I would use the entangle bonuses for the first part and shooting wild for the second part.

[Beatmeclever]

Win the initiative and roll to strike to hit the gun off target.

A Parry is the act of deflecting the incoming attack, not the act of deflecting the weapon that sends the attack. Bullets cannot be parried (they tend to pass through flesh, muscle, and, sometimes, bone).

Entangle would work to enfold the weapon, but not to, necessarily, move the weapon off target. The weapon can be grappled, entangled, or pushed off line, but the bullets that come out of it will be traveling too fast to be parried unless you are Superman-like in physical structure or you have Force-like powers.

Typically, if you are close enough to be physically touched by your opponent your firearm is NOT the choice of weapons you should make.

[Giant2005]

If someone swings a sword at me, I hit the blade so it doesn't make contact with my body, that is a parry.
If someone swings their gun around to point it at me, I hit the gun so it is no longer pointed at me, in my eyes that too is a parry.

[Severus Snape]

If someone swings a sword at me, I hit the blade so it doesn't make contact with my body, that is a parry.
If someone swings their gun around to point it at me, I hit the gun so it is no longer pointed at me, in my eyes that too is a parry.

The situation here is that the gun is already pointing at the player in question, and therefore the gun itself is not moving.

As the GM in this game, the ruling I am going to make is: You cannot parry the gun. If you want to move it out of the way, roll to strike, disarm, or entangle (using the appropriate bonuses).

[Armorlord]

The situation here is that the gun is already pointing at the player in question, and therefore the gun itself is not moving.

As the GM in this game, the ruling I am going to make is: You cannot parry the gun. If you want to move it out of the way, roll to strike, disarm, or entangle (using the appropriate bonuses).

Do you realize that, by definition, a parry is striking another weapon and moving it out of line with you?

Also you really shouldn't be pointing guns at your players, except for Nerf maybe. Just makes things a bit too tense at the gaming table, you know?

[Severus Snape]

Do you realize that, by definition, a parry is striking another weapon and moving it out of line with you?

From Dictionary.com:

par·ry   /ˈpæri/ Show Spelled [par-ee] Show IPA verb, -ried, -ry·ing, noun, plural -ries.
verb (used with object)
1. to ward off (a thrust, stroke, weapon, etc.), as in fencing; avert.
2. to turn aside; evade or dodge: to parry an embarrassing question.

verb (used without object)
3. to parry a thrust, blow, etc.

Taken with the proper definition, you are parrying the object coming at you, not the stationary object that is firing the object at you. Therefore, while you could (if you had the ability) parry the bullet, you can't parry the gun as it is not the direct object coming at you.

Also you really shouldn't be pointing guns at your players, except for Nerf maybe. Just makes things a bit too tense at the gaming table, you know?

They had it coming!

[Akashic Soldier]

Yes you can.

According to the Rifts: Game Master Guide people can parry lasers and bullets and anything that would not be considered unblockable (such as area of effect damage). To do this there is a -10 penalty (or an optional -5 instead of the shooter is more than 15 yards away.) Parrying Mega Damage attacks with a weapon not enforced with a MD alloy will parry the attack but the weapon will be destroyed as per normal. Characters with the special parry anything ability such as the True Samurai from World Book Japan are at -3 to parry instead of -10 or -2 when at range.

I have said this before but I highly recommend buying the Rifts: Game Master Guide. It is filled with all the rules you wish were in Rifts: Ultimate Edition and clarifies rules questions like this. It is such a useful supplement and I wouldn't be at a game without it.

Notable Rules in the R:GMG
-Defending against Area of Effect attacks
-Defending for Others
-Pain Penalties (rules for damage sustained to specific locations via called shots)
-Rules for Spraying (Using a railgun to fill an area with hot lead)
-Rules for Shooting Wild (Players and Game Masters will be surprised to find out how often their characters will actually be Shooting Wild and exactly what that means.)

[Hendrik]

Yes you can.

According to the Rifts: Game Master Guide people can parry lasers and bullets and anything that would not be considered unblockable (such as area of effect damage). To do this there is a -10 penalty (or an optional -5 instead of the shooter is more than 15 yards away.) ...

I have said this before but I highly recommend buying the Rifts: Game Master Guide. ... It is such a useful supplement and I wouldn't be at a game without it.

Hi there, AS

Parrying Bullets:
You cannot. Rifts GMG (I cannot recall the page numbers from the top of my head but IIRC it was 33 and 41) states that you can DODGE (with the penalties as stated by you, only that the -5 IIRC is not optional but dependent on distance only) bullets, and expressly states that you can NOT parry them. Or ... did I misread that?

That said, I do not see why one could not allow parrying of a bullet with for example a shield like Captain America's or with a blinkyfencer like Fluke Flyscraper uses.

Rifts Game Master Guide:
I love that book as well. Many of the restatements in the R:GMG have found their way into the 2005er systems (such as BtS-II [page 167] and Splicers [page 218]). In BtS-II for example you will find the child of the R:GMG rule. The GMG, IMHO, is still a great book if only to shed light on the process to get to the rules as they are today (which is great for a teleological interpretation).

Kindest regards
Hendrik

[Akashic Soldier]

Yes you can.

According to the Rifts: Game Master Guide people can parry lasers and bullets and anything that would not be considered unblockable (such as area of effect damage). To do this there is a -10 penalty (or an optional -5 instead of the shooter is more than 15 yards away.) ...

I have said this before but I highly recommend buying the Rifts: Game Master Guide. ... It is such a useful supplement and I wouldn't be at a game without it.

Hi there, AS

Parrying Bullets:
You cannot. Rifts GMG (I cannot recall the page numbers from the top of my head but IIRC it was 33 and 41) states that you can DODGE (with the penalties as stated by you, only that the -5 IIRC is not optional but dependent on distance only) bullets, and expressly states that you can NOT parry them. Or ... did I misread that?

That said, I do not see why one could not allow parrying of a bullet with for example a shield like Captain America's or with a blinkyfencer like Fluke Flyscraper uses.

Rifts Game Master Guide:
I love that book as well. Many of the restatements in the R:GMG have found their way into the 2005er systems (such as BtS-II [page 167] and Splicers [page 218]). In BtS-II for example you will find the child of the R:GMG rule. The GMG, IMHO, is still a great book if only to shed light on the process to get to the rules as they are today (which is great for a teleological interpretation).

Kindest regards
Hendrik

Give me a few days to get a page scan for you.

What printing of the book do you have? Because people have told me that it came out before R:UE but mine has R:UE references in it so....

Anyways, if I recall correctly it is in the modern combat section where Kev is talking about how he made ranged combat too deadly because he had a bunch of gun enthusiast friends.

[Hendrik]

Give me a few days to get a page scan for you.

What printing of the book do you have? Because people have told me that it came out before R:UE but mine has R:UE references in it so....

Sure! I would be very happy to see the reference. It is quite easy to overread a rule in the Pally books, treasure troves as they are, some gems tend to fall between other stuff

I cannot look at the book now. I do have my BtS-II book with me and I have Splicers pdf but sadly no GMG.

Now to the original question of Severus:

Parrying a Firearm (i.e., sweeping/pushing it aside before the other guy can shoot)
I think that is very possible but also fraught with peril. It does not take long to pull a trigger. I think the chance of succeeding with such a parry will depend on several factors / have some prerquisites.

- you need to be in a distance as short to the prospective shooter as possible, the farther away you are the higher your chance that the other guy can shoot before you reach him and his firearm, i.e. the farther away the greater a malus I would assign
- you need to have initiative because if not the churl will just curl that trigger finger and get his shot out at you (which would get us back to the dodging bullets rule)
- you can do that parry with your hand, legs, a body check or with a tool
- tools will give you added length to parry the firearm, i.e. essentially reduce any negative modifiers for "distance to firearm"

I think it could be handled as a disarm (note that DISARM PARRY might give you a better critical range on such stunts), so it would depend on your HtH table if you can pull this off.

As with the disarm I think that your opponent (the guy with the firearm) can try to void you sweeping your firearm aside, i.e. in turn dodge your attempt.

Cheers
Hendrik

[Looonatic]

I allow parrying gunfire at range with a shield as long as the bearer has the appropriate WP with the same rules and penalties as dodging gunfire. My rationale is that it's just as hard(or as easy) to move a shield into the path of gunfire as it is to move a body out of the path of gunfire.

In hand-to-hand combat, I allow any player to parry gunfire by parrying the weapon itself and/or the arm wielding it. That's the penalty of trying to use guns at point-blank range. On the other hand, taking a page from 'Dead Reign', I typically have such close-in weapons fire do extra damage.

[jedi078]

If somebody is trying to shoot you at point blank range (one or two feet), then yes you can parry/deflect the firearm away from you so you do not get shot. A second roll should be made as an attempt to disarm the person with the firearm.

In regards to shields, a room entry shield is used as mobile cover, meaning you need not to make a roll to parry because the shield is already up and (hopefully) pointed towards the enemy. Said enemy would have to make a called shot to hit any exposed portions of the shield bearers body.

[Display-Name-Alpha]

I'd say avert to the Ninjas and Superspies "range" rules for martial arts. If you're in someone's face, like intimate close trying to do holds and what not and they are trying to shoot you still, by all means, controlling your opponents arm actions is very essential to any melee combat, they pull a gun from their hip and you kick their wrist it will knock the shot wild. Even at the "short" range where you have to be for all of the jump and flying attacks, you'd have a chance to possibly (make a impromptu initiative roll to see if he gets the gun up before the defending character gets in range to parry his body). But at any kind of long range, without being neo, -10 to parry bullets sounds about right (without bonuses)

[JuliusCreed]

I've actually been in a game where this question came up... as I was closing in on my opponent to engage him in Hand to Hand, he was unholstering and aiming a sidearm at me. The distance between us played a big factor in it at the time, but I was within 5 feet of him and the GM allowed me a chance to parry the guy by closing in and knocking his hand away as he brought the gun to bear. The GM's ruling... if I succeeded, I would knock his hand to the side just before or even just as he was pulling the trigger, saving myself from getting shot... if I failed I was taking a 45 caliber slug to, at best, my chest, at worst, my head, at point blank range. However... he included half of the attackers HtH strike roll as well as his strike bonus from the Pistol WP. His ruling was I was taking the fight to a hand to hand distance. Stike rolls for attacks are a reflection, not just of a character's accuracy, but his speed as well... at that range, the guy is really trying to get that gun out fast, though accuracy is out of the question when a screaming guy with a sword is charging at you as you're drawing your gun... sadly, I failed my parry roll (rolled a dang 2, with bonuses I had a 6) and thus suffered a short burst from a MAC 10 at point blank range.... to the chest... but the theory was sound

[Damian Magecraft]

Its an entangle