Does God and Jesus exist in rifts earth?

[llywelyn]

Llywelyn- From everything I have ever read and been told the devil is a very essential. Catholics and Christians are always talking about Hell, Satan, the devil and such.

I am a firm believer that you can not have good with out evil and evil without good.

Except that's dualism. It's always been a very popular heresy, but the orthodox version is AS and Zer0's takes above - the devil is always ultimately a servant of the one Lord.

You forgot that a veritable pantheon exists in the "monotheistic" Judeo-Christian God... after all how many names does He have? Jehova Jira, Abba Father, YHWH, Adonai, El, Elah, Eloah, Elohim, El Roi, El Shaddai, Elyon, etc...

Nah. I talked about the gnostic traditions and the idea of splitting the OT god into smaller deities, but didn't dwell on it. Taking the Biblical G-d in the direction of an elohim council of "Mighty Ones" could be interesting, but easily objectionable.

You're right that Baal is "Lord", but he was also a very specific Canaanite / Ugaritic Deity.

I don't think the red devil with the pitch fork came around until Dante's Inferno.

Nah. Dante's Satan was awesome: stuck in a pit of body-studded ice - the worst sinners are the coldly rational traitors and backstabbers - munching on Judas, Brutus, and Cassius for all eternity. (Although it's been my personal opinion since Sunday school that Judas got a raw deal, given that the crucifixion had to happen...)

Speaking of old Xian myths: the Wandering Jew would be an interesting plot device, if it could be kept from anti-semitism.

A blue-haired, leather punk rock Christian with no church who aimlessly wanders the country (sometimes the world) doing good wherever I can and fight evil lest God kick me in the ass for being neglectful of my responsibilities.

This also sounds like an awesome NPC.

[Akashic Soldier]

This also sounds like an awesome NPC.

You mean I'm not even PC status? Dammit.

Seriously though, lets get this back on topic guys!

EDIT: Added

Just to address a few issues:
1. Christian god/judaic God/Islamic God are NOT the same god.
They were declared so by people wishing to end holy wars.
2. Each Abrahamic religion actually worships a totally different being. Judaic god says you are measured against your sins. Christian God says you are "Saved" if you believe in Jesus and accept him as your savior. Islamic god says you go to heaven if you become the most awful warlord and convert the most followers. The Buddhist God says wanting to convert others and not balancing your sins will send you to hell and the only way out is to become enlightened and not need for selfish ventures.
3. The Rifts Version of Creation is the Demi Urge Model - A Supreme Entity Created the Multi Verse. He left Lesser Entities in charge. The Old Ones were In charge of One Half, the Gods of Light and Dark the other half. Sentient Races began creating more gods.
4. A Rifts Priest would have power, but not the same kind as a pagan priest. I'd say they are the equivalent of Psi Mystics , or NegaPsychics.. With Kabbalistic types being more skilled in Summoning.
Islamic " Magic " is entirely based on dreaming, trances, so on. Their faith gives them power, but not because "God" Gave them it, but because Living Beings are able to will into power supernatural things due to the nature of that multiverse.
5. Jesus as he existed in the bible, Was not the first person who had some son of god background. Nearly Every major religion had at least one person who had a history similar to "jesus" but all ended quite differently.

in Babylonian mythology, it was Enoch. In Egyptian Mythology it was Horus-Ra, In Appalachian mythology it was Hiawatha, in Greek mythology it was Dionisus, in Roman Mythology it was Mars. Every major religion believes in a 2nd coming of some lord.

If you are going to help educate people in the matters listed here please put them in the proper context so I don't have too.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Well it was good while as it lasted

[llywelyn]

1. Christian god/judaic God/Islamic God are NOT the same god. They were declared so by people wishing to end holy wars.

They were declared so by the very people who founded their faiths: Abraham, Jesus, and Muhammad. That they handle their theology differently doesn't refute that, especially given linguistic differences.

Moreover, your highly inaccurate take on Islam likely violates some forum rules, and you'd also be more likely to carry your points without insults.

Buddhist God

There is no Buddhist "God". If you mean Siddhartha, his fundamental innovation is that the gods are in the same boat we are and unable to help. Plus, he founded a group of disciples and bade them spread his message: hardly dismissing conversion. If you mean the other buddhas, well... which one?

3. The Rifts Version of Creation is the Demi Urge Model - A Supreme Entity Created the Multi Verse. He left Lesser Entities in charge. The Old Ones were In charge of One Half, the Gods of Light and Dark the other half. Sentient Races began creating more gods.

Cite?

Staying on topic - I do like the idea of Imams and Ayatollahs, Rabbis, and Priests having distinct powers. It shouldn't be based on faith-denying prejudice, though. (Hell, that's the problem with Rifts current priests.) You could source them from actual stories, but make sure to do it from within each tradition itself - not their blood libel opinions about each other.

I know rabbis have kabbalah and get into problems with golems. Priests use saintly relics, sanctify ground, and turn monsters. Imams can sing Quranic passages for protection. Anyone know more lore?

[Akashic Soldier]

Educate on which matters?
1. the different abrahamic gods in the various religions... This is easy to understand, if you stopped being politically correct. A While ago, there was a meeting between the pope, a Bishop representing the presbytereans and Some Other council Declared they all worshipped the same deity - in the interest of trying to preserve some form of world peace.This happened back around 1965.

2. Demi urge Model of Creation says that the Demi Urge Created the universe. but it was so powerful it could not control what it had created so it split itself into 2 forces.

the other creation model says there is no god,but human minds create multiverses just by thinking it. this is the model preached by Quantum Mechanics.
3. Making Priests of monotheistic religions psychic is totally in line with what we see today in the modern world. Miracles and what not are the realm of quackery, not metascience.

4. Everything in the King james Bible is a Lie put together by the First Convetion of the Niacenes. It was created 300 years after the death of jesus. all sorts of heresies and stories were put forth and finalized together by a group of 300 Bishops and Christian Nobles of ROME. Not any Divine hand.

1.

2. Not arguing that is the truth in Palladium I do not have read the material on the Old Gods.

3.

4.

You've got to be able to pick the real conspiracies from the propaganda and understand the situations in context to the time. I will not continue this conversation but to say...

You are all free to believe Rappanui's statements should you so choose.

But I would really like to get this back on this within the context of the setting before I feel compelled to begin posting vast walls of text about things that I am sure most people do not actually care about. I am not refusing to address these issues. I am refusing to turn this thread into flame war of political conspiracy. Especially since I can already tell by the initial post that they're arguments are.. Nevermind.

Yup, its all lies, we live in a world of hard facts and love is product of a chemical response in your brain and humans are just naked apes.

[llywelyn]

[size=170]

Heh. That was a bit much.

...humans are just naked apes.

I don't know what kind of sicko community you blue-haired punk Christians have going on, but over here, we wear clothes.

It's one of the reasons G-d made the CS masters of creation and is guiding Triax to victory over the shameless Gargoyles (see companion thread).

[llywelyn]

Well it was good while as it lasted

We're pretty civil.

I'm sure Rappy holds his beliefs and just didn't acquaint himself with the forum rules:

Transmitting or facilitating the distribution of content that is harmful, illegal, bigoted, vulgar, sexually explicit or degrading, or disparaging of any race, religion or person is deemed objectionable by Palladium Books, management and/or board moderators/administrators and will NOT be tolerated. Community standards may vary, but there is no place on these boards where hate speech is acceptable or tolerated. Again, think about others, be courteous and tolerant. We're all gamers after all, and isn't that the bigger picture.

And now that he's seen them, he should be fine.

It is an interesting topic and one the game should improve on. Just need to remember to play nice.

[TechnoGothic]

Bacchus (roman)
aka Sabazius (alternate roman name)
aka Dionysus (greek)
aka and many others....

[llywelyn]

as for the Buddhist God statement: This is purely based on the japanese/Korean Model of Buddhism, where they believe Buddha will come again to offer humans final enlightenment against those that would lead people astray ( those who gain psychic power by dealing with devils, At least in one particular Silly Movie, Rebirth of Buddha)

Ok.

So not Buddha Buddha (Siddhartha) but Maitreya.

Only India/Nepal follow the No Deity model of buddhism, and the rest of the asian countries added their own changes. (Buddhists don't have No God, They just don't think it matters in terms of enlightenment)

This isn't really accurate,* but let's get back to how it applies to the game or some possible scenarios the players might encounter (e.g.) in India or the Middle East. : )

*By "No Deity" you mean Theravada, and it's practiced in Sri Lanka and Indochina, not India or Nepal. All of the versions of Buddhism don't have a God (per your original post, which is what I was talking about), but most modern versions (especially Pure Land) think they're very helpful for enlightenment, despite that completely contradicting Siddhartha's point.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I have been thinking about this thread a little bit since my last few posts and came up with what I thought was an interesting idea for adventure and thought I would share it.

The PC's start to hear rumors of Jesus coming back to earth, he is located in a small town (that was previously know as a violent crime ridden hole in the ground) relatively near where the PC's are. (I was thinking somewhere in the new west) They start hearing about miracles, and unbelievable healing, etc.. They start to see & met people from all over traveling the countryside to go see this new Jesus.

If/When they go to the town they will hear about how wonderful he is, that not only has Jesus that has returned but also the 12 apostles and any other biblical figure you may want. The town has this Person very heavily guarded but he and the apostles do walk around the city and speak and meet with the people preaching and providing sermons to the people. Each Sunday in the cities old arena (now converted to be a church). Jesus does large sermons that involve healing. Such as but not including, total detox of Juicers, regeneration of lost limbs, etc. in front of everyone. The people that get healed are chosen by Jesus during the sermon from those in the crowds and are generally people of true faith in him; he doesn't seem to differentiate between most D-bees and humans as long as they believe. He even preaches about tolerance and equality.

On the Sunday in question the sermon is attacked by a demon/or demons, Jesus and the apostles are able to erect a force field to protect everyone in the arena and are also able open a rift in the sky that sucks the demon/demons into it with no harm or damage to anyone in attendance. Word of this spreads like wildfire.

Shortly after these events Jesus announces a pilgrimage across the country. At this time as well rumors about the CS becoming interested in Jesus and the followers is coming back and that the CS believe that he is dangerous, a liar, deranged, magic using and a demon himself. (Mostly because they are having people from inside their towns and cities start believing what he is preaching and some are starting to ask questions, with a small movement wanting to leave the CS and go to him.) The CS at this point beyond the rumors are going to be sending out spies and plants before deciding what to do, but at this point they do not like what they are hearing and believe this Jesus to be a deluded and dangerous magic user.

Jesus starts his trek across the country he starts picking up massive amounts of followers in each village. The security around him is becoming better and better all the time as he picks up more and more followers. Also the Jesus and the 12 are able to pick up spies and people/d-bees planning on doing no good almost instantly. If the attackers are not Monsters or demons, they are almost always captured or allowed to escape (never killed) to have a private talk with Jesus, when they are seen again they have become devote followers. During the pilgrimage Jesus and Company are never attacked by any real sizable force (unless something the players do or uncover demands it)

What is really going on? GM section

An alien intelligence wants to get onto Rifts earth. Using similar tactics to the AI in England know as Merlin by pretending to be a savoir of mankind/d-beekind.

This fake Jesus is the main splinter essence of the AI, the 12 are also.

The faith healing provided are actually the AI spreading its essence out (like creating secondary vampires) how ever they of course are not vampires.

I haven't thought of the full list of powers or stats or anything at this point, just thinking mostly of story ideas except that all the splinter essences have the ability to mask their true aura, so that they appear how they want to appear. able to alter the level, ppe, isp, class etc. to those with means of sensing or viewing them. And the main essences will be able to read minds of those hostile towards them, planning against them. As well as spell abilities.

Those that are captured from attacked are also converted into splinter essences of the AI.

Once the AI has enough followers it will rift to this world, That is why Jesus started to travel, They are headed to a powerful nexus point (i was thinking the magic zone). Once there a shrine (ie pyramid) will begin construction once construction is complete and their are enough followers the AI will port itself over, to straddle itself in both our dimension and it's home dimension.

Once the AI gets itself to rifts earth things will turn/change and the need to hide it's real intent will longer be there.

Will the players be able to figure it out before or after the AI gets to rifts earth.
Will the CS get infected, by the time they figure it out will it be to late.
Will the players help the CS, will the CS help the players.
Will other NA factions help?
If your world has already had the Juicer uprisings how willing will they be to try another "cure".
What will the ramifications be on the followers that were not turned when they find out it was a lie and a trap.
Will the players get converted into AI essences.
Will a major crisis of faith follow these events across the world.

I might have to steal this I love it

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I might have to steal this I love it

If you do I would love to hear how it played out.

I will let you know

[Zer0 Kay]

Oh, yeah yeah. I wasn't saying I wanted to see the verse from you. I was trying to agree with you. I want to see where he gets that from. I also disagree with his statement that Satan is angry because mankind has salvation but it isn't offered to him. It sounds like he got some of his ideas from J.M. Linsner's "Dawn" series (interesting read but far more Wiccan than Christian). The thing is even Satan is offered salvation but his sinful pride would never allow him to repent.

Because the world angel is a was translated from Elohim which as you know means.. well blah blah blah. Sorry I missed this question earlier, I didn't see it. As for a specific verse I remember content and struggle with specific verses but if I recall correctly there is no verse saying that angels do not have free will but there should be a verse about humanity being the greatest of God's creatures and something mentioned around the time that the apostles are filled with the fire of the Holy Spirit. I actually started reading John against last week because my biblical fuu had gotten rusty so this is a good reason for me to go back over the book again.

What is the world angel? The word Elohim and angel have nothing to do with each other. Angel comes from Mal'ech both mean messenger. Elohim is God. The mention of the deciples being filled with the holy spirit that descended upon them and rested over their head like a flame is on the day of Pentecost. That is in Acts. The Holy Spirit does not impart free will. We only receive the Holy Spirit when we accept Jesus but we have free will to sin all our lives. Glad your in the word.

That said, no one should take my word for it. Go look into these things yourself, seek the truth, find where the hands have men have robbed us of biblical truth and seek, seek, seek! The truth is out there for those who look for it.

That is an awesome point of view... too often people see what we write Biblical or not and take it for the truth never desiring to seek it out themselves.

EDIT: Added

Starts with a sunglasses emote?? you mean Baal? Baal wasn't red. Baal simply means lord in Hebrew and could refer to any number of pagan gods that the ancient Hebrew people regularly adopted durring their frequent periods of religious rebellion.

Weaving a crop circle... uh... okay. Don't you mean Mallifactorum?

Yes I did and no I didn't mean Baal. I am not an idiot. Everyone knows Baal. Its like Berfemot, I believe?

Here is the image I had mentioned:

The Mowing Devil

Bafmet? Cool... I want that guy to mow my lawn... price is too high though.

[Zer0 Kay]

Just noting the contradiction in Akashic's statement that all the fallen have no free will, when free will is a requirement to fall because you have to be capable of saying 'no' to defy God and fall. If the main fallen can defy God when called upon to bow to God's creation and the rest choose to follow him over God then they must have free will just like God's other creation. At worst you just see it that God was extra displeased with them defying him since Mankind has lived in the flesh whereas the angels have all lived on the higher plane with God and knew far better the cost of breaking the rules.

Oh, yeah yeah. I wasn't saying I wanted to see the verse from you. I was trying to agree with you. I want to see where he gets that from. I also disagree with his statement that Satan is angry because mankind has salvation but it isn't offered to him. It sounds like he got some of his ideas from J.M. Linsner's "Dawn" series (interesting read but far more Wiccan than Christian). The thing is even Satan is offered salvation but his sinful pride would never allow him to repent.

Oh I got that, I just have a tendency to respond and repeat myself for some reason at random, no idea why. I realize it can be confusing at times, one of those quirks I can't seem to eliminate. Oh well, we all have our little quirks.

I haven't read a bible in some time but I do seem to remember that the Fallen do have that chance of repenting (not surprising, why would God offer it to Man but not his first creations? ) but can't bring themselves to doing so. Depending on which Satan if it's the one that tortured Job then he's still doing his job, considering he and the rest of the fallen are still running around tempting humans and testing their faith, maybe because he just can't find it in him to choose not to and in some twisted way is still trying to prove himself to his creator.

Maybe.

[Zer0 Kay]

It sounds like he got some of his ideas from J.M. Linsner's "Dawn" series.

I've never read it. All of my views and conclusions have been reached through study, searching the scripture and many hours of research during my teenage years in an attempt to find which religion was right as I bounced around the globe.

Hmm, fair enough. bounced around the globe? Military brat?

[Zer0 Kay]

It sounds like he got some of his ideas from J.M. Linsner's "Dawn" series.

I've never read it. All of my views and conclusions have been reached through study, searching the scripture and many hours of research during my teenage years in an attempt to find which religion was right as I bounced around the globe.

I did the same thing but I'm a atheist

So... you have a religion then. atheist = no gods so is still a system of beliefs and even areligious though it claims to have no beliefs still has the beliefs that they have no beliefs.
I was raised Bahai but learned that their beliefs are even more contradictory than they claim Christianity's are. I became atheist because I felt that the Christian God couldn't be good with stuff like the crusades, inquisition and other attrocities. So I figured there wasn't a God. Then decided that creation was too ordered to be random so must have been created and became deist but that is far more depressing than believing that there is no God because you believe there is one but he doesn't give a damn about you. Then I came to the realization that all the atrocities commited in the name of the Lord were decisions of man.

[Zer0 Kay]

I have been thinking about this thread a little bit since my last few posts and came up with what I thought was an interesting idea for adventure and thought I would share it.

The PC's start to hear rumors of Jesus coming back to earth, he is located in a small town (that was previously know as a violent crime ridden hole in the ground) relatively near where the PC's are. (I was thinking somewhere in the new west) They start hearing about miracles, and unbelievable healing, etc.. They start to see & met people from all over traveling the countryside to go see this new Jesus.

If/When they go to the town they will hear about how wonderful he is, that not only has Jesus that has returned but also the 12 apostles and any other biblical figure you may want. The town has this Person very heavily guarded but he and the apostles do walk around the city and speak and meet with the people preaching and providing sermons to the people. Each Sunday in the cities old arena (now converted to be a church). Jesus does large sermons that involve healing. Such as but not including, total detox of Juicers, regeneration of lost limbs, etc. in front of everyone. The people that get healed are chosen by Jesus during the sermon from those in the crowds and are generally people of true faith in him; he doesn't seem to differentiate between most D-bees and humans as long as they believe. He even preaches about tolerance and equality.

On the Sunday in question the sermon is attacked by a demon/or demons, Jesus and the apostles are able to erect a force field to protect everyone in the arena and are also able open a rift in the sky that sucks the demon/demons into it with no harm or damage to anyone in attendance. Word of this spreads like wildfire.

Shortly after these events Jesus announces a pilgrimage across the country. At this time as well rumors about the CS becoming interested in Jesus and the followers is coming back and that the CS believe that he is dangerous, a liar, deranged, magic using and a demon himself. (Mostly because they are having people from inside their towns and cities start believing what he is preaching and some are starting to ask questions, with a small movement wanting to leave the CS and go to him.) The CS at this point beyond the rumors are going to be sending out spies and plants before deciding what to do, but at this point they do not like what they are hearing and believe this Jesus to be a deluded and dangerous magic user.

Jesus starts his trek across the country he starts picking up massive amounts of followers in each village. The security around him is becoming better and better all the time as he picks up more and more followers. Also the Jesus and the 12 are able to pick up spies and people/d-bees planning on doing no good almost instantly. If the attackers are not Monsters or demons, they are almost always captured or allowed to escape (never killed) to have a private talk with Jesus, when they are seen again they have become devote followers. During the pilgrimage Jesus and Company are never attacked by any real sizable force (unless something the players do or uncover demands it)

What is really going on? GM section

An alien intelligence wants to get onto Rifts earth. Using similar tactics to the AI in England know as Merlin by pretending to be a savoir of mankind/d-beekind.

This fake Jesus is the main splinter essence of the AI, the 12 are also.

The faith healing provided are actually the AI spreading its essence out (like creating secondary vampires) how ever they of course are not vampires.

I haven't thought of the full list of powers or stats or anything at this point, just thinking mostly of story ideas except that all the splinter essences have the ability to mask their true aura, so that they appear how they want to appear. able to alter the level, ppe, isp, class etc. to those with means of sensing or viewing them. And the main essences will be able to read minds of those hostile towards them, planning against them. As well as spell abilities.

Those that are captured from attacked are also converted into splinter essences of the AI.

Once the AI has enough followers it will rift to this world, That is why Jesus started to travel, They are headed to a powerful nexus point (i was thinking the magic zone). Once there a shrine (ie pyramid) will begin construction once construction is complete and their are enough followers the AI will port itself over, to straddle itself in both our dimension and it's home dimension.

Once the AI gets itself to rifts earth things will turn/change and the need to hide it's real intent will longer be there.

Will the players be able to figure it out before or after the AI gets to rifts earth.
Will the CS get infected, by the time they figure it out will it be to late.
Will the players help the CS, will the CS help the players.
Will other NA factions help?
If your world has already had the Juicer uprisings how willing will they be to try another "cure".
What will the ramifications be on the followers that were not turned when they find out it was a lie and a trap.
Will the players get converted into AI essences.
Will a major crisis of faith follow these events across the world.

That is good, but remember in the beginning (God said let there be light, sorry I started and had to go there) you mention that the players hear about Jesus. Remember it can't just be by name most characters have no knowledge of who Jesus is.

[Zer0 Kay]

Everybody has to follow their own path in the world.

I know I am going to sound like a total ***** but sometimes I wish that I had company. Just once I wish someone could tell me something I didn't already know or teach me something or save me. If I have any "weakness" it is just that I don't have a very good relationship with Jesus. I know who he is and what he done but I don't get that warm fuzzy feeling everyone talks about and it gets lonely and thats not supposed to happen if you are tight with Christ apparently. I can see why everything is happening and why God does what he does and find out why easily enough and recognize Truth from lies but the personal relationship with God and the Holy Spirit is something I struggle with.

Anyways, this isn't Why is Akashic Soldier a Christian or What do you believe its Does God and Jesus exist in rifts earth? so lets get back to that topic before I go getting all esoteric again.

I'm sorry you feel that way, brother. The best I can do is pray for you.

[Zer0 Kay]

Well it was good while as it lasted

Dang it why'd that guy come in. I thought we were all getting along. Oh well. In again before lock.

[Zer0 Kay]

Llywelyn- From everything I have ever read and been told the devil is a very essential. Catholics and Christians are always talking about Hell, Satan, the devil and such.

I am a firm believer that you can not have good with out evil and evil without good.

Except that's dualism. It's always been a very popular heresy, but the orthodox version is AS and Zer0's takes above - the devil is always ultimately a servant of the one Lord.

You forgot that a veritable pantheon exists in the "monotheistic" Judeo-Christian God... after all how many names does He have? Jehova Jira, Abba Father, YHWH, Adonai, El, Elah, Eloah, Elohim, El Roi, El Shaddai, Elyon, etc...

Nah. I talked about the gnostic traditions and the idea of splitting the OT god into smaller deities, but didn't dwell on it. Taking the Biblical G-d in the direction of an elohim council of "Mighty Ones" could be interesting, but easily objectionable.

You're right that Baal is "Lord", but he was also a very specific Canaanite / Ugaritic Deity.

I don't think the red devil with the pitch fork came around until Dante's Inferno.

Nah. Dante's Satan was awesome: stuck in a pit of body-studded ice - the worst sinners are the coldly rational traitors and backstabbers - munching on Judas, Brutus, and Cassius for all eternity. (Although it's been my personal opinion since Sunday school that Judas got a raw deal, given that the crucifixion had to happen...)

Speaking of old Xian myths: the Wandering Jew would be an interesting plot device, if it could be kept from anti-semitism.

A blue-haired, leather punk rock Christian with no church who aimlessly wanders the country (sometimes the world) doing good wherever I can and fight evil lest God kick me in the ass for being neglectful of my responsibilities.

This also sounds like an awesome NPC.

I thought it was cool in OT History & Literature we were talking about how Abraham was probably an Akkadian as El and all the other "el" words are Akkadian in nature. Akkadian's sound familiar? They were used in several movies 3 of them had The Rock as the last one.

Oh so point is though Judaism adopted the El pantheon you could claim it as Akkadian.

Oh yeah and you guys are right. The red devil is supposed to be from the Elizabethan era the red suit to represent the firey bit. The traditional satyr to warn against pagan faiths along with Posidon's trident.

[llywelyn]

Well it was good while as it lasted

Dang it why'd that guy come in. I thought we were all getting along. Oh well. In again before lock.

Nah.

The first post violated forum rules, but that was pointed out and his next one was toned down and on topic.

Alien Intelligence: Don't be so quick to judge, m'man... :scribbles things in the sand with his stick:

[Cool story]

Bro, good write-up (& of course the Palladium universe lends itself to seeing the original version the same way). But if any of the players are Xian, it could be tetchy if you didn't have the agents of the actual guy (an angel or prophetic vision guiding an NPC) to oppose the false prophet. You could play up the irony by making the opponent look devilish (wolfen, mutie, &c.) or straight and make him a bishop of an outlawed (Catholic?) church that eventually becomes a larger plot hook as the players help protect them and their partially converted-Dbee flock from the CS on one hand and Dragonwright & the wilds on the other.

Also gives the GM a way of cluing the players in without having to show a tentacle under beard guy's robes.

[Akashic Soldier]

[Cool story]

I like it but I think it would be better if the 12 were just regular guys like everyone else who had been led astray by the Alien Intelligence. One is a Crazy who has his madness cured, another one is a Juicer that has been blessed with eternal life so long as he believes, etc, etc, and so forth.

I also would not have it spreading like an infection. I would simply have it gaining followers and powers so it can become powerful enough to manifest on Earth. As you said have them build a second pyramid and a second Ark of the Covenant (See Alien Conspiracy Theory) and then hold a massive prayer service outside the pyramid like the Reunion in Final Fantasy VII where all of the followers are called on a pilgrimage to the pyramid to pray and be taken to heaven.

Of course when The Rapture happens it is just a massive rent in time and space (Rift) and the Alien Monstrosity devours the followers. Just use the Lord of the Deep's stats if it gets to this point.

Oh and I'd have the imposter Christs true colors come out with some hard fire and brimstone preaching from the Old Testament while the Pyramid is being constructed, that way you kind of have this Rifts: The Coming of the Anti-Christ story-arc.

[llywelyn]

As you said have them build a second pyramid and a second Ark of the Covenant (See Alien Conspiracy Theory)

If we're getting into Ark territory, rift the followers to Jerusalem and build the pyramid on the Temple Mount.

At that point, a series of lore rolls should point out That Can't Be Right.

[Akashic Soldier]

As you said have them build a second pyramid and a second Ark of the Covenant (See Alien Conspiracy Theory)

If we're getting into Ark territory, rift the followers to Jerusalem and build the pyramid on the Temple Mount.

At that point, a series of lore rolls should point out That Can't Be Right.

Good thinking!

Also for the hell of it you might as well say that the AI was responsible for enslaving the Jews in Egypt in times long past. Why not?

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

Not-Locked-Count 1

As i understand it, no monotheistic religions are covered. because they don't fit in the setting or story. one all-powerful, all-knowing and incomprehensible being who controls everything and can never be challenged is boring and uncreative. it lends nothing to the game. it lacks anything relating to humanity. which is who the game is for. the polytheistic pantheons have gods with many human characteristics and refining qualities. and are known for being capable for exceptional mortals to defeat. much more interesting to the average gamer.

you can smack talk yahweh, allah, and the budda all day to try and get them to fight you. but they are everything, including you, and if they ever even paid attention to you, you would be rent from existence by accident. to look upon them is to be destroyed in body and mind. you couldnt even comprehend the powers leveled against you.

but that asura guy? or ares? or even thor? you smack talk them, and its time to throw down. if you are a bad enough dude, you might even win. and they'll respect you for that. it would be glorious. it makes a damn fine story. and its fun as all get out, even if you fail.


and polytheistic followers aren't known for crusades, suicide bombings, and death threats. they are a bit more laid back. they dont sue, they dont threaten you, and they wont kill you for looking at their god wrong.

so you will never see palladium touch monotheism.

The only reason the polytheistic followers aren't known for suicide bombings is because their faiths were reduced to nearly nothing long before gunpowder really existed, and they managed to crusade just fine and didn't bother with death threats they just spread death when they felt the faith called for it. Those who've revived the faith today have done so while looking back at the scope of history and chosen to not engage in such behavior, just as Christianity grew out of as it realized it wasn't being true to its bible saying one thing and doing another.

Christianity may have grown out of it, but Christians haven't. Muslims either. also, the reason for why polytheistic religions haven't done anything too nasty in a while isn't important. its the fact that the monotheistic ones have. palladium is afraid of reprisals by people who lack common sense and are so fanatically out of their minds that they violate their own scriptures, in the name of their scriptures.

so they dont do it. people calm down, learn not to take stuff so seriously, and stop killing each other over what amounts to an imaginary friend, they might. at least do their own spin anyways. and before the hate starts about the imaginary friend dig, its more of the whole cant prove eachother wrong bit than intentionally offending anyone or downplaying religion.

religious fights sound exactly like kids arguing over whose dad can beat the other up, or whose imaginary friend is awesomer. You cant tell till they fight, and anything other than the parents fighting is childish posturing. its best to learn to live with eachother and grow up so to speak. kids grow out of it, and the major religious groups seem to have as well. hopefully, all the individual members will as well.

[llywelyn]

Christianity may have grown out of it, but Christians haven't. Muslims either. also, the reason for why polytheistic religions haven't done anything too nasty in a while isn't important. its the fact that the monotheistic ones have. palladium is afraid of reprisals by people who lack common sense and are so fanatically out of their minds that they violate their own scriptures, in the name of their scriptures.

As mentioned above, this is nonsense.

It's simply a lie to say polytheists are more peaceful. Even ignoring the historical cases (and Roman persecution was central to both Judaism and Christianity's development), Japanese Buddhists have terror groups; so do the Tibetans. The Hindu Tamil Tigers have recently been largely defeated (as in, within the last 2-3 years) but for decades pioneered suicide bombing, operated attack aircraft, and assassinated the presidents of both India and Sri Lanka.

Moreover, some Christian group might boycott Palladium; they're not going to attack anyone. It's legitimate that some Muslims have been giving the others a very bad reputation over the past few decades (Rushdie, Theo van Gogh, the Dutch cartoons...) and that Islam is very, very overdue for a Reformation - getting too deep into that likely would violate forum rules, aside from being off topic. But while Detroit has one of America's largest Muslim communities, KS & co. prolly know some and doubtless know that the troublemaking ones are a very, very small minority; the worst they'd expect in America would be being sued or threatened. Hell, while I'm sure they aren't interested in the agita, the publicity might even make them money and raise their profile enough (if they were in the right) to get the movie back out of development hell.

But I'm not sure how that discussion has bearing on the topic, unless you just wanted to point out that any bad stuff we could say about one religion (and atheist Communism killed more in the last 100 years than any of the other ones, possibly more than all of them put together; some atheist environmentalists write hopefully of removing the "stain" of humanity from the world) applies to the others. Any group of humans convinced they have The One Answer has to fight real hard not to be willing to hurt plenty of others to defend their Truth. But I think we all know that.

Speaking of Commies, though: Anyone know (a) how repressive the Sovietski is of the faithful? or (b) how to deal with the book calling the Russian Christians "Catholic"? Should we just ignore that as bad writing or assume that there was finally an ecumenical reunion of the faiths, just in time for the Coming of the Rifts to fragment it back into a thousand pieces?

[llywelyn]

As you said have them build a second pyramid and a second Ark of the Covenant (See Alien Conspiracy Theory)

If we're getting into Ark territory, rift the followers to Jerusalem and build the pyramid on the Temple Mount.

At that point, a series of lore rolls should point out That Can't Be Right.

Good thinking!

Also for the hell of it you might as well say that the AI was responsible for enslaving the Jews in Egypt in times long past. Why not?

Make it look like a sphinx! (The original sphinx god?)

You could do the whole storyline as Yeats's "The Second Coming"

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,*
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction,** while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.***

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

*Coming of the Rifts
**Erin Tarn on Tolkeen
***Prosek on anything

[Nightmask]

I think the idea of 'second coming of Jesus being just an alien intelligence' to be on the tacky end, referring back to an earlier post. I don't see where it'd be that entertaining (unless you had the real Jesus show up to deal with the fake). Plus not like Palladium hasn't already taken a noble tale from history/mythology and had its 'second coming' presented as nothing more than a plot by an alien intelligence (the reborn Camelot in Rifts: England).

[Akashic Soldier]

As you said have them build a second pyramid and a second Ark of the Covenant (See Alien Conspiracy Theory)

If we're getting into Ark territory, rift the followers to Jerusalem and build the pyramid on the Temple Mount.

At that point, a series of lore rolls should point out That Can't Be Right.

Good thinking!

Also for the hell of it you might as well say that the AI was responsible for enslaving the Jews in Egypt in times long past. Why not?

Make it look like a sphinx! (The original sphinx god?)

You could do the whole storyline as Yeats's "The Second Coming"

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,*
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction,** while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.***

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

*Coming of the Rifts
**Erin Tarn on Tolkeen
***Prosek on anything

Don't you love it when adventures write themselves. Hit me with some Neo-Apostles concepts and I'll see it together and run it next weekend for my group. Should be interesting.

[Zer0 Kay]

That is good, but remember in the beginning (God said let there be light, sorry I started and had to go there) you mention that the players hear about Jesus. Remember it can't just be by name most characters have no knowledge of who Jesus is.

I would disagree with that. Take a look at our culture. Even little kids know who Zeus or Hades. They know about Odin and Thor, etc. Those were thousands of years from now. Rifts earth is only about 300 to 400 years from now. Plus you have entire cultures based on western films, lots of pre-rifts movies being shown in theaters and small towns. I would be amazed if the players didn't know who it was by name. Even if the player was a few weeks old hatching. They know about multiple figures from the USA history, but not the name of one of the Key figures from a Major religion that had spanned more then a 1000 years. I am going to say I don't buy that one.

Ah, however the legends of Zues and Hades have been kept alive through writting. Most of the CS doesn't read and those that do most certainly wouldn't be able to get ahold of a book that talks about a good supernatural creature without out being convicted of treason against the state. How many movies have been made about Jesus compared to all the other subjects combined? And again, the CS would persicute any that watched it. What figures does EVERYONE know from US history?

[llywelyn]

I think the idea of 'second coming of Jesus being just an alien intelligence' to be on the tacky end, referring back to an earlier post. I don't see where it'd be that entertaining (unless you had the real Jesus show up to deal with the fake). Plus not like Palladium hasn't already taken a noble tale from history/mythology and had its 'second coming' presented as nothing more than a plot by an alien intelligence (the reborn Camelot in Rifts: England).

Oh, G-d, it's the most hackneyed plot device they have and they use it over and over, not just in the future but to explain things from humanity and other races' pasts. They've even done the 'second-coming-of-a-religious-figure-as-an-Ali-Int' with that Splugorth chillaxing in Iceland pretending to be Thor.

In fact, surely there's a list somewhere of all the Alien Intelligences who've shown up so far and the various people they've pretended to be.

It's just of a piece with the setting. Take it or leave it as it strikes you. Some Xians would be offended, sure; some would think it's cool to see a chance to defend their faith from a false prophet (I'm sure all of them know by now that religion gets used to bad ends; they just get annoyed when no one sees that that's not the end of it).

I still like my idea of having some true, underground church get involved and leaving it available for further adventures, rather than bringing on the true apocalypse and the real Second Coming [although it'd be a hell of a way to close out your Rifts campaigns]. Besides, the Antichrist is supposed to get to play around for a millennium first, iirc.

[llywelyn]

On the other hand, even if G-d and the angels don't get involved, in a universe where They are there, the GM could use this plotline both (a) to make the players into Heroes of Legend among the faithful (not that that necessarily helps them: "YOU're Ajax the Invincible?? But he's twenty feet tall and has six arms!") and (b) to grant them legitimate saintly powers: bonus to MA, turn dead, sense evil, heal the sick, etc.

Especially funny if one of the PCs is an atheist: "But I shouldn't be able to do this!!" (Although of course, the player should be a believer or you run the risk of the GM being a 'wad.)

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

Christianity may have grown out of it, but Christians haven't. Muslims either. also, the reason for why polytheistic religions haven't done anything too nasty in a while isn't important. its the fact that the monotheistic ones have. palladium is afraid of reprisals by people who lack common sense and are so fanatically out of their minds that they violate their own scriptures, in the name of their scriptures.

As mentioned above, this is nonsense.

It's simply a lie to say polytheists are more peaceful. Even ignoring the historical cases (and Roman persecution was central to both Judaism and Christianity's development), Japanese Buddhists have terror groups; so do the Tibetans. The Hindu Tamil Tigers have recently been largely defeated (as in, within the last 2-3 years) but for decades pioneered suicide bombing, operated attack aircraft, and assassinated the presidents of both India and Sri Lanka.

Moreover, some Christian group might boycott Palladium; they're not going to attack anyone. It's legitimate that some Muslims have been giving the others a very bad reputation over the past few decades (Rushdie, Theo van Gogh, the Dutch cartoons...) and that Islam is very, very overdue for a Reformation - getting too deep into that likely would violate forum rules, aside from being off topic. But while Detroit has one of America's largest Muslim communities, KS & co. prolly know some and doubtless know that the troublemaking ones are a very, very small minority; the worst they'd expect in America would be being sued or threatened. Hell, while I'm sure they aren't interested in the agita, the publicity might even make them money and raise their profile enough (if they were in the right) to get the movie back out of development hell.

But I'm not sure how that discussion has bearing on the topic, unless you just wanted to point out that any bad stuff we could say about one religion (and atheist Communism killed more in the last 100 years than any of the other ones, possibly more than all of them put together; some atheist environmentalists write hopefully of removing the "stain" of humanity from the world) applies to the others. Any group of humans convinced they have The One Answer has to fight real hard not to be willing to hurt plenty of others to defend their Truth. But I think we all know that.

Speaking of Commies, though: Anyone know (a) how repressive the Sovietski is of the faithful? or (b) how to deal with the book calling the Russian Christians "Catholic"? Should we just ignore that as bad writing or assume that there was finally an ecumenical reunion of the faiths, just in time for the Coming of the Rifts to fragment it back into a thousand pieces?

I didnt say they were more peaceful. I siad they hadn't done anything too heinous in recent years that reached common knowledge. I said that the monotheists are at palladiums doorstep and always looking for an excuse to fight. I said that the monotheists are just that much more vocal, and that there are more of them, and that they are known by everyone to get violent quick. monotheism is more widespread, more vocal, and in america, where palladium is. while i doubt anyone would walk all the way to the back end of nowhere to blow up a tiny little publisher, im sure someone with more faith and money than common sense would sue. and america loves that crap. this isnt europe where stupid lawsuits get thrown out and the accuser pays for it. lawyers will back anything up, and the government doesnt care what its citizens bicker about, or how frivolous things get.

[flatline]

Introduce a human named Jesus. Have him preach all the "be nice, turn the other cheek, don't expect a reward in this life" stuff from the gospel.

DON'T HAVE HIM DO ANYTHING EXCEPT MINOR MIRACLES AND TALK TO PEOPLE!

The point isn't to see how Jesus can change things. The point is to see how the mere presence of Jesus can change things as cults form around him and against him and how each power chooses to respond to his message.

Unless his followers are formidable and vigilant, I would expect it to be pretty simple for someone to kill him (he's an SDC human with very minor magical abilities, after all). If he is killed, three days later he appears somewhere else and starts all over again as if nothing has happened. And he won't hold a grudge.

Don't ever confirm one way or the other if he's the real Jesus or not. When asked directly, he'll avoid answering (as I recall, the gospel never mentions Jesus saying he's the son of God or king of the jews. it's always someone else making that claim).

How big an effect you want him to have on the setting is entirely up to you and/or your players, depending on how they respond and how you run the NPCs.

Seems like an easy way to add a new flavor to the Rifts setting. If you want to.

--flatline

[Giant2005]

If I were going to have Jesus in Rifts, I'd have him work for the CS propaganda machine. Obviously he wouldn't be a divine being but some kind of genetic construct created by Lonestar to breed hate for the CS's enemies.
Kind of like the intention of the movie "The Book of Eli" using religion to control the masses.

[llywelyn]

Don't you love it when adventures write themselves. Hit me with some Neo-Apostles concepts and I'll see it together and run it next weekend for my group. Should be interesting.

If you're keeping the tone of the original:

Stone: Well-meaning and the most devout, "Jesus"'s favorite. Powerful, but not the brightest. Dbee (grackletooth?).

Manley: Stone's little brother or brother-in-law. Poor but honest. Seeking (already tried a different cult, maybe Dragonwright, and got let down). Same race as Stone.

Hoss: Grew up with Stone & Manley. Magician, learning from "Jesus".

Ptolemy: Friend of Hoss's, an Adna scholar or an Elven ex-battle mage who met him out Ohio way when Hoss was seeking (but didn't find?) Dweomer.

Cal: Tolkeen refugee. Hothead advising "Jesus" to use his powers to destroy their enemies, gently rebuffed.

Joanna: Cal's sister. Psionic, with visions.

Leo: Cal's son. Burster with a thing for cudgels.

"Tio": Used to be Theodore. Human in his late twenties. Former Coalition Deadboy who went AWOL in Pecos over some of the craziness going on in Lone Star. Can't abide the CS and looking for alternatives, since he's worried as hell about Mexico and the bugs up north.

Tiny: Theo's little brother, worships him & very worried about keeping him safe from the CS. Huge.

Dido: Powerful female priest. A separate splinter of the intelligence who both teaches his gospel separately and questions how well "Jesus" fits the "prophesies". Although seems to be independent and sometimes challenging, is used to sniff out dissent and questioning.

Ihuda: A wolfen trying to manage his anger over the Coalition, after fighting them in Tolkeen or Colorado. Having seen the horrors of war, hopes "Jesus" does represent a better path. Well-meaning, but very literal. Clever, willing to question the logic in "Jesus"'s plans a little more than the rest.

Qana: Another wolfen who previously fought beside Ihuda, whom she's attracted to but has never had the courage to talk to (he thinks she's fine, but is focused on trying to work through his own issues).

[llywelyn]

I didnt say [polytheists] were more peaceful. I siad they hadn't done anything too heinous in recent years that reached common knowledge.

Yeah, but like I pointed out, that part's wrong, too.

[Akashic Soldier]

Don't you love it when adventures write themselves. Hit me with some Neo-Apostles concepts and I'll see it together and run it next weekend for my group. Should be interesting.

If you're keeping the tone of the original:

Stone: Well-meaning and the most devout, "Jesus"'s favorite. Powerful, but not the brightest. Dbee (grackletooth?).

Manley: Stone's little brother or brother-in-law. Poor but honest. Seeking (already tried a different cult, maybe Dragonwright, and got let down). Same race as Stone.

Hoss: Grew up with Stone & Manley. Magician, learning from "Jesus".

Ptolemy: Friend of Hoss's, an Adna scholar or an Elven ex-battle mage who met him out Ohio way when Hoss was seeking (but didn't find?) Dweomer.

Cal: Tolkeen refugee. Hothead advising "Jesus" to use his powers to destroy their enemies, gently rebuffed.

Joanna: Cal's sister. Psionic, with visions.

Leo: Cal's son. Burster with a thing for cudgels.

"Tio": Used to be Theodore. Human in his late twenties. Former Coalition Deadboy who went AWOL in Pecos over some of the craziness going on in Lone Star. Can't abide the CS and looking for alternatives, since he's worried as hell about Mexico and the bugs up north.

Tiny: Theo's little brother, worships him & very worried about keeping him safe from the CS. Huge.

Dido: Powerful female priest. A separate splinter of the intelligence who both teaches his gospel separately and questions how well "Jesus" fits the "prophesies". Although seems to be independent and sometimes challenging, is used to sniff out dissent and questioning.

Ihuda: A wolfen trying to manage his anger over the Coalition, after fighting them in Tolkeen or Colorado. Having seen the horrors of war, hopes "Jesus" does represent a better path. Well-meaning, but very literal. Clever, willing to question the logic in "Jesus"'s plans a little more than the rest.

Qana: Another wolfen who previously fought beside Ihuda, whom she's attracted to but has never had the courage to talk to (he thinks she's fine, but is focused on trying to work through his own issues).

Not grackle tooth, Brutosaur.

As my PC's just got done traveling with a group and will need to travel with them again to get back home this is the perfect opportunity. Its made even better by the fact that last adventure (last night) ended with the Ley Line Walkers "child bride" getting hit in the chest by a Master Vampire and taking MD. She was healed by magic but her heart is now severely damaged and they're heading back to Paradise City to get her a new Cybernetic one. It all just writes itself I tell ya!

Thanks so much! Looks like I have some stats to write out.

[llywelyn]

[excellent alternative]

is also excellent.

There are lots of Christians - even the theologians - who would disagree with you: He does repeatedly come out and say He's the Son of G-d, who is His Father (Matt 11:27, Mark 14:61, Luke 2:49). What at least the English translations leave ambiguous (the Greek might be clearer, dunno) is whether He is alone in that regard or if He was trying to get it through the Apostles' thick skulls that we are all the sons of the Most High. In any case, after the Resurrection and Paul, there's only been one orthodox view on how many kids G-d has running around, even if people can still argue over who exactly Jesus's brothers and sisters were.

[Giant2005]

Isn't wine Jesus's blood and bread his body?
If that is true then I am 99% sure that he is in Rift's Earth, otherwise there are a lot of hungry people out there.

[llywelyn]

Not grackle tooth, Brutosaur.

So then Stony can even be the smartest of his race and its still works. Plus they're very accepting of other races and have clans down Pecos way, which gives them a place for the AI to pick them up or a reason for them to have been travelling together if the adventure starts somewhere else. The MA could be higher, but then I guess Peter doesn't really come off all that well on his own in the original version...

Still, "child bride"?

Bread and wine

Only after the ritual of transubstantiation (50 P.P.E.),* and only Catholic and Orthodox seminaries are able to teach the ritual. We aren't sure how many survived, although presumably there are some in Free Quebec and at the outpost of Noutry Daim in the wasteland east of Chi-Town.

Normal bread and wine have always just been that.


*Off the top of my head: 6th level, enough for 10 people / level of the caster, dispels curses & illusions, ingestion causes 6d6 HP of damage to the undead or 2d4*10 MD to creatures of supernatural evil.

[TechnoGothic]

Introduce a human named Jesus. Have him preach all the "be nice, turn the other cheek, don't expect a reward in this life" stuff from the gospel.

DON'T HAVE HIM DO ANYTHING EXCEPT MINOR MIRACLES AND TALK TO PEOPLE!

The point isn't to see how Jesus can change things. The point is to see how the mere presence of Jesus can change things as cults form around him and against him and how each power chooses to respond to his message.

Unless his followers are formidable and vigilant, I would expect it to be pretty simple for someone to kill him (he's an SDC human with very minor magical abilities, after all). If he is killed, three days later he appears somewhere else and starts all over again as if nothing has happened. And he won't hold a grudge.

Don't ever confirm one way or the other if he's the real Jesus or not. When asked directly, he'll avoid answering (as I recall, the gospel never mentions Jesus saying he's the son of God or king of the jews. it's always someone else making that claim).

How big an effect you want him to have on the setting is entirely up to you and/or your players, depending on how they respond and how you run the NPCs.

Seems like an easy way to add a new flavor to the Rifts setting. If you want to.

--flatline

Have to pronounce his name "HEY ZUES" instead of "Geeze Us" though. Just to see if the Players are Quick on the uptake.

[Akashic Soldier]

Not grackle tooth, Brutosaur.

So then Stony can even be the smartest of his race and its still works. Plus they're very accepting of other races and have clans down Pecos way, which gives them a place for the AI to pick them up or a reason for them to have been travelling together if the adventure starts somewhere else. The MA could be higher, but then I guess Peter doesn't really come off all that well on his own in the original version...

Still, "child bride"?

Bread and wine

Only after the ritual of transubstantiation (50 P.P.E.),* and only Catholic and Orthodox seminaries are able to teach the ritual. We aren't sure how many survived, although presumably there are some in Free Quebec and at the outpost of Noutry Daim in the wasteland east of Chi-Town.

Normal bread and wine have always just been that.


*Off the top of my head: 6th level, enough for 10 people / level of the caster, dispels curses & illusions, ingestion causes 6d6 HP of damage to the undead or 2d4*10 MD to creatures of supernatural evil.

I have to keep this short but if you are patient and get bored go to the GM Forum and checkout the GOING TOO FAR thread. It starred out as a I need advice thread but turned into a documented record of my weekly game. It's got a pretty big following much to my surprise (like 6 regular readers ) and I'm told it's pretty funny. You may enjoy it, maybe not.

Short version is that he accident purchased her from a Chinese restaurant who was trying to get rid of her (sexist father who was tired of supporting her and looked to palm her off to the first magic-user to come into the store) and Alfonze can't get rid of her now. It was supposed to be a test to see how he handled unwanted responsibility that, ah you can read it if you care.

Night Guys!

[SamBell]

I honestly think I'd be sorta neat to put Jesus, or the Christian God into rifts, maybe be some sort of divine champion for them, or something along the lines of that, and by the way folks, I gotta say I appreciate all of your answers/suggestions and your inputs!! Thanks everyone

[Wōdwulf Seaxaning]

I refuse to have G-ds (including Yahweh , Yesua or Satan) statted in game as NPCs. Only their Angels,Demons & messengers will be , as well as their followers n' clergy.

[Zer0 Kay]

Introduce a human named Jesus. Have him preach all the "be nice, turn the other cheek, don't expect a reward in this life" stuff from the gospel.

DON'T HAVE HIM DO ANYTHING EXCEPT MINOR MIRACLES AND TALK TO PEOPLE!

The point isn't to see how Jesus can change things. The point is to see how the mere presence of Jesus can change things as cults form around him and against him and how each power chooses to respond to his message.

Unless his followers are formidable and vigilant, I would expect it to be pretty simple for someone to kill him (he's an SDC human with very minor magical abilities, after all). If he is killed, three days later he appears somewhere else and starts all over again as if nothing has happened. And he won't hold a grudge.

Don't ever confirm one way or the other if he's the real Jesus or not. When asked directly, he'll avoid answering (as I recall, the gospel never mentions Jesus saying he's the son of God or king of the jews. it's always someone else making that claim).

How big an effect you want him to have on the setting is entirely up to you and/or your players, depending on how they respond and how you run the NPCs.

Seems like an easy way to add a new flavor to the Rifts setting. If you want to.

--flatline

Have to pronounce his name "HEY ZUES" instead of "Geeze Us" though. Just to see if the Players are Quick on the uptake.

Why not Yes you ahh?

"Jesus" is a transliteration, occurring in a number of languages and based on the Latin Iesus, of the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs), itself a hellenization of the Hebrew יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Yĕhōšuă‘, Joshua) or Hebrew-Aramaic יֵשׁוּעַ (Yēšûă‘),

[Zer0 Kay]

I refuse to have G-ds (including Yahweh , Yesua or Satan) statted in game as NPCs. Only their Angels,Demons & messengers will be , as well as their followers n' clergy.

But Thor who is still worshipped as well as various goddesses that are worshipped by Wiccans an entire Pantheon worshipped by the Hindu the oldest organized religion.

But if they stat God, Jesus or Satan that is going too far??

Not to mention Satan isn't a god he is a fallen angel so by your "Only their Angels,Demons & messengers" allows it... BTW that statement is redundant. It should just be Angels or Demons. Angel means messenger, and no it isn't Ang means messenger and el means God. Angel comes from aggelos which was translated from the Hebrew mal'akh, both meaning messenger. Only (mal'akh Elohim; messenger of God), (mal'akh YHWH; messenger of the Lord) as well as two other phrases that don't translate to messenger so shouldn't translate to aggelos.

[Zer0 Kay]

I do think it would be fun to run the Rifts campaign into a modified version of the Various old and new testament stories (alot like KING did on NBC) but you have to remind all players it's not an assault on their religion. it's a game damn it, and even Comic books have "god" in it.

That is what I've been thinking. Even better if they statted Fortress Israel.

[Misfit KotLD]

As this has come up in my campaign, El was a western Semitic deity who decided to push out the competition, and in large part did so. The seventy sons of El and his wife (Asherah, who technically was Yahweh's) were likewise edged out. El was patient but began losing his followers' faith again and sent his "only" son to get them back in line. That did not go as planned, Yeshua was given to sacrifice and El's followers re-instituted a more patriarchal theology. As El's churches ascended, magic waned and other pantheons were further eroded by low magic, active conversion, and extra-planar wars (the Prophecy was right about the war in heaven, but wrong about who all was fighting it). Then the rifts came, magic returned, and the world went to hell. El had left things on cruise control for some time and was ill-prepared for the apocalypse (it wasn't the one He planned). His priesthood is active, but his ex-wife is also active and highly put out. Fortunately for him, Asherah is still very minor and her lone champion is off saving the world from the Apocalypse Demons.

I did all this to address in a holistic manner, the real-world history upon which Rifts was set and address the obvious lack of the Abrahamic faiths (which make no sense to me from a setting standpoint). How do the gods of religions relegated to fiction get a presence when the religions with tons of devout get practically nothing.

I have included other bits of historical monotheism, such as a daughter of Frederick II of Hohenstauffen (who, I admit, is my favorite medieval figure). What the party hasn't looked into yet is the ritual described to wake the King Under the Mountain in Germany's greatest hour of need.

[llywelyn]

I refuse to have G-ds (including Yahweh , Yesua or Satan) statted in game as NPCs. Only their Angels,Demons & messengers will be , as well as their followers n' clergy.

But if they stat God, Jesus or Satan that is going too far??

I didn't take Lucy's post like that at all.

I think he just had the entirely appropriate reaction that PCs should not even approach being able to shoot holes in them and that that's just not how their stories work. It's all wheels within wheels within wheels with these damn Swis... I mean, late-Semitic dieties.

Thor, on the other hand, does have a history of brawling with humans and it's just theoretically possible that some brawler (with copious behind-the-scenes help from Loki) could fight him to a standstill and get some lunch coupons for Valhalla.

[llywelyn]

"Jesus" is a transliteration, occurring in a number of languages and based on the Latin Iesus, of the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs), itself a hellenization of the Hebrew יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Yĕhōšuă‘, Joshua) or Hebrew-Aramaic יֵשׁוּעַ (Yēšûă‘),

On the subject of G-d's kid Josh, lemme take a second to absolutely and heartily endorse Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal by Christopher Moore. My religious parents stole my copy and passed it around at church, so I can't give any quotes, but suffice it to say that any book that has Jesu... sorry, Josh... getting his first kiss, touring Kali's fields in India, and learning kung fu and still pulls it back to Cavalry and makes it work...

It's a damn fine read.