Nightbane vs. Vampires

[rebis]

Are the Vampires a worthy foe to fight the Nightbane? It seems to me no, I worry that the players that are playing the Nightbane will just walk all over the Vamps. I've never used Vampires in any campaigns that I've run in the past and want to know what your experiences with vampires as villains are.

[Shark_Force]

well, the nightbane happen to have several abilities that make them a lot stronger against vampires.

- dealing large amounts of damage with HtH and/or magical abilities.
- immune to mind control
- immune to being transformed
- regeneration to at least equal the vampire combined with often being very tough.
- access to a bunch of talents that can quickly turn a fight in the nightbane's favor, detect vampires, etc.

so, you might be thinking, "how would vampires deal with that since their usual approach is severely weakened?"

simple. numbers. there are most likely maybe a few hundred nightbane in a city, tops, from what i understand of the setting. odds are good, those nightbane are split up between several factions, and even the nightbane within one faction will generally have different assignments, which means that it's quite possible that you'll have 20-30 bane or fewer dealing with the vampires.

1:1 the nightbane will rip the vampires a new one. but it's not likely to be 1:1 now is it? most likely it's going to be at *least* 10:1 in terms of overall numbers, and quite possibly if you're facing a well-entrenched vampire intelligence it could even be 100:1 or more (although in any given fight it is unlikely at best for the vampires to be able to bring their full numbers to bear, they'll still have enough free resources that in any fight where the vampires have access to reinforcements, it should quickly turn 2:1 or 3:1 in the vampires' favor when it comes to numbers.

[TechnoGothic]

Nightbane curb-stomp on vampires for fun.

I'm not sure why Vampires were included in Nightbane to be honest. I always felt that a few Vampire-like Nightbane gave us the legends for various vampires around the world. Kinda-like how nightbane is said to have given us the werewolf legends, etc...

With NB-SG's Undead Table at least, i do not have to use vampires at all anymore for nightbane.

I suggest using Vampire-like Nightbane instead of normal palladium vampires.

[TechnoGothic]

NB Survival Guide = Good Book.

[MurderCityDisciple]

I've always thought that the Palladium Vampires should only be vulnerable to blessed water, water that is blessed by a priest or sacred in some way, rather than just any old water. It makes them harder to kill and is more true to the legends.

Still got to save up for the NB Survival Guide. The only book I'm missing from the Nightbane game.

I've been using the Vampire creation rules from Rifter #47 with a few modifications of my own and it's been a total blast. I went with more of a Lovecraftian alien contagion type vampire where holy water and symbols don't really work (only on vamps with religious guilt). Vampires are creatures from a different black gulf beyond time and space, no not Detroit.

and...

Yeah any Nightbane worth it's Clive Barkery salt should be able to pile drive the average vampire, but it usually breaks down into the pack of blood-jackyl's attacking the iron-fanged pus-lion kinda fight. Don't forget Vamp's can really rip off some SDC...1D4x10+damage bonus a pop for some of the randier ones.

[say652]

a single vampire using his or her abilities correctly is a fierce oppenent. a few lesser vamps a ghoul or twenty to provide a combat force and a bunch of charmed loyal humans. in any enviroment shapechanging and mistform rock. and a vampire would not willingly enter into a hand to hand battle after watching how easily its forces were destroyed.

[MurderCityDisciple]

a single vampire using his or her abilities correctly is a fierce oppenent. a few lesser vamps a ghoul or twenty to provide a combat force and a bunch of charmed loyal humans. in any enviroment shapechanging and mistform rock. and a vampire would not willingly enter into a hand to hand battle after watching how easily its forces were destroyed.

Yup...I treat vampires as ambush killers. They ain't stupid.

Their shifting and misting abilities make them potent...they are immortal, they are patient, they will wait until their victim is alone.

[say652]

a single vampire using his or her abilities correctly is a fierce oppenent. a few lesser vamps a ghoul or twenty to provide a combat force and a bunch of charmed loyal humans. in any enviroment shapechanging and mistform rock. and a vampire would not willingly enter into a hand to hand battle after watching how easily its forces were destroyed.

Yup...I treat vampires as ambush killers. They ain't stupid.

Their shifting and misting abilities make them potent...they are immortal, they are patient, they will wait until their victim is alone.

brofist for showing some vampire respect.

[Kovoston]

I've always thought that the Palladium Vampires should only be vulnerable to blessed water, water that is blessed by a priest or sacred in some way, rather than just any old water. It makes them harder to kill and is more true to the legends.

Still got to save up for the NB Survival Guide. The only book I'm missing from the Nightbane game.

Agreed!

[Colt47]

Nightbane curb-stomp on vampires for fun.

I'm not sure why Vampires were included in Nightbane to be honest. I always felt that a few Vampire-like Nightbane gave us the legends for various vampires around the world. Kinda-like how nightbane is said to have given us the werewolf legends, etc...

With NB-SG's Undead Table at least, i do not have to use vampires at all anymore for nightbane.

I suggest using Vampire-like Nightbane instead of normal palladium vampires.

I kind of like having vampires around. At least the Rifter 49 ones.

[Kovoston]

Nightbane curb-stomp on vampires for fun.

I'm not sure why Vampires were included in Nightbane to be honest. I always felt that a few Vampire-like Nightbane gave us the legends for various vampires around the world. Kinda-like how nightbane is said to have given us the werewolf legends, etc...

With NB-SG's Undead Table at least, i do not have to use vampires at all anymore for nightbane.

I suggest using Vampire-like Nightbane instead of normal palladium vampires.

I kind of like having vampires around. At least the Rifter 49 ones.

[barna10]

If all you look at is the Physical strength and toughness then I think you miss the boat. If that were all that mattered, why don't bears, lions, tigers, elephants, etc. rule the planet? Man proved along time ago it's not just about how tough, fast, or strong you are.

[Display-Name-Alpha]

If all you look at is the Physical strength and toughness then I think you miss the boat. If that were all that mattered, why don't bears, lions, tigers, elephants, etc. rule the planet? Man proved along time ago it's not just about how tough, fast, or strong you are.

But if you follow the "Palladium Vampire" they are a bunch of feral dogs with no organization except to rove in packs and feed, like hyenas or wolves. So Might = Right in that sense.

[PhellaOne]

NB Survival Guide = Good Book.

A very good "seed" book. It will plant adventures in your mind.

In response to the original post:
As with anything else in the Palladium Megaverse, the power/threat level of vampires is a reflection of how you envision them. You could create a society of sophisticated vampires, use the feral lone vampire, or anything in between. Everything in the books is OPTIONAL, with instructions by the game's designer to "use what you want, change what you want". The vampire breakdown (Intelligence, Master, Secondary, and Wild) is flexible enough to accommodate most tastes. I, personally, like vampires as villains, but I'll also be the first to admit that against your typical Nightbane, even most Secondary Vampires need to be very careful in a head to head brawl.

[URLeader Hobbes]

Keep in mind vampires aren't stupid. While a one on one approach is most likely going to end up bad for the Vampire they have more resources available to them then just hand to hand.

Keep in mind vampires can have mind control slaves, a minion/protector who most likely will be armed with some sort of weapon. (Afterall they have to keep guard while the vampire sleeps.) Also keeping in mind normal bullets don't hurt a vampire.. So if a minion with an uzi sees his master fighting a bane most likely he's going to empty a clip or two into the nightbane.

Another thing to keep in mind is the servants of the vampires won't have any issues following the Banes arround in the day. So they can gather info, work as spies, and keep tabs on the factions while the vampires sleep. When they awaken the next checking their text messages or a quick call can bring the vampire up to speed on what the Nightbanes are up to.

Also keep in mind that Nightbanes aren't as tough in their facades. Someone seeking to prove they are worthy to become a vampire may pass on this info or they might even attempt to kill them.

Lots of options for vampires to make life really miserable on Banes.

[Kovoston]

Keep in mind vampires aren't stupid. While a one on one approach is most likely going to end up bad for the Vampire they have more resources available to them then just hand to hand.

Keep in mind vampires can have mind control slaves, a minion/protector who most likely will be armed with some sort of weapon. (Afterall they have to keep guard while the vampire sleeps.) Also keeping in mind normal bullets don't hurt a vampire.. So if a minion with an uzi sees his master fighting a bane most likely he's going to empty a clip or two into the nightbane.

Another thing to keep in mind is the servants of the vampires won't have any issues following the Banes arround in the day. So they can gather info, work as spies, and keep tabs on the factions while the vampires sleep. When they awaken the next checking their text messages or a quick call can bring the vampire up to speed on what the Nightbanes are up to.

Also keep in mind that Nightbanes aren't as tough in their facades. Someone seeking to prove they are worthy to become a vampire may pass on this info or they might even attempt to kill them.

Lots of options for vampires to make life really miserable on Banes.

Very well put!

[pblackcrow]

Actually, Vampires may help the nightbane and humans fight against the night lords and the Be'el.

[Kovoston]

Actually, Vampires may help the nightbane and humans fight against the night lords and the Be'el.

True, but what happens after that?

[Nightmask]

Actually, Vampires may help the nightbane and humans fight against the night lords and the Be'el.

True, but what happens after that?

Vampires attacking humans of course, back to business as usual since vampires still have to feed on humans and joining up against the Ba'al would just be a necessity to survive and keep their food stock alive.

[pblackcrow]

Actually, Vampires may help the nightbane and humans fight against the night lords and the Be'el.

True, but what happens after that?

After that, should they try anything...rather simply put, destroy them!

[TechnoGothic]

unless your bane is walking around with elemental powers, vampires are a huge pain in the ass for banes to fight
their aps makes them difficult to catch
their regeneration means if they can avoid combat for a while they can escape brute force
nothing a nightbane has will kill a vampire directly
2-4 secondaries can shred a bane , wild vamps are not a problem though.

Yeah, being Physically able to just Rip the Vampire's Head off and use fire-based talents on the head and body will not kill them for good. Think again. Just throw the vampires head and body into a river. Dead. Throw them into a bonfire, dead.

[Hendrik]

This is an interesting question.

A Vampire intelligence is a foe on a level that is beyond a low level Nightbane.

I'd say that on a one on one basis the vampire does not a good chance when slugging it out. Only the Master Vampire would be the equal of most Nightbane in e.g. raw strength while a wild or secondary would IMO likely lose. That said, although while vampires are pretty standardized in their abilities, Nightbane are not and very varied. It will really depend on the concrete Morphus form, abilities and talents (as well as their intelligent tactical use) how great the Nightbane chances are.

Regarding regeneration: Nightbane (in Morphus) form are better. They have 10 SDC/HP per melee, Vampires have 2D6 per melee.

I agree with what said before, though, that "numbers can kill", but that goes both way. A couple of Nightbanes are a good match for a (greater) number of standard (secondary or wild) vampires, but a pack (flock, pride?) of e.g. even wild vampires will stand a chance to tear down a Nightbane (like rats would a wolf).

I also agree that use of intellect can compensate for lack of physical/psionical/etc. strength, but that goes both ways as well. Vampires are not universally more intelligent than Nightbane, some are, some aren't.

All that said, vampires do not play a huge role in my new Nightbane game. I always thought that the vampire "mythoi" (the "real" ones not the WOD stuff) do not fit particularily well with the Nightbane plot and setting. Though, I love the Nukekubi creature - the similar Penanggalan was in the AD&D Fiend Folio (the 1981 one) and the Vargouille (Monster Manual II then) is similar - and will introduce that as well as a ghulish creature with some vampire abilities (much closer to the wild / pack concept which I love than to the "oooo, I am a dark creature, baby" sparkling WOD concept or the "Haughtier than thou, old evil" Dracula theme [which I think is awesome but does not go with the Nightbane thing]).

Cheers
Hendrik

[Specter]

Vampires are insanely powerful if none of their major weaknesses are present. Sure a Nightbane can beat a vampire to a pulp faster than you can say "bazinga" but vampires can regenerate even after "death", pop right back together, and be all kinds of pissed off. A nest of vamps... 3-4 vamps per nightbane PC will be a real challenge if there isn't any sunlight/wooden stakes to put the vamps down permanent like.

[Nekira Sudacne]

and remember, staking a vamp only puts it to sleep. not kill.

And dumping them in a bathtub and filling it does kill it permanently. if you got 'em staked finishing them off is a matter of extreme trivality.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Another thing to consider is just how easy it is to get a wooden stake for a being with supernatural strength.

Are there any wooden furniture around? Well just break off a chair or table leg and boom, improvised stake. Any trees around? Grab a branch and stick it in. it dosn't have to be a perfect stake, any jagged edge will do.

[Johnathan]

While I can see the validity of each side of the argument, I'm going to have to side with Nekira on this. Vampire's, for all their might and danger, tend to get taken out rather quickly when up against a wily Nightbane or two.

Is the bane going to take a pounding? Probably, depending on how many vamps their are, but still, they'll be able to beat the ever-unliving-snot out of those blood suckers.

[Johnathan]

I don't know, about you, but Nightbane are generally not fast enough to deal with flying vampire bats, or vampires in wolf form, and can do Didly squat against vampires in mist form.


there's also the vermin factor..

while they can kick an individual vampire's ass, they won't win versus numbers, unless the bane is particularly powerful and ninjamatic.

In my experiences... Nightbane are particularly powerful and ninjamatic! Of course my opinion may be bias... I tend to play underdog races and occupations...

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't know, about you, but Nightbane are generally not fast enough to deal with flying vampire bats, or vampires in wolf form, and can do Didly squat against vampires in mist form.


there's also the vermin factor..

while they can kick an individual vampire's ass, they won't win versus numbers, unless the bane is particularly powerful and ninjamatic.

Have you seen the Speed Darkling power in Nightbane Survival Guide? Speed is SPx10. so if the bane has a speed of 13, the absolute mininmum possible in morphus (Assuming rolled a 3, no physical skills and only the +10 for the baseline morphus), then they run at 130 MPH And have Autododge to boot. Sorry, that one power turns any bane into a Ninjamatic.

Vermin? Like...rats? yea...a swarm of them won't do enough damage to bother the nightbaens regeneration factor, if they don't pop up a darksheild to ignore them completely. Or outrun them.

Also, vampires don't tend to swarm. they like being lone hunters explictly. Unless they are wild vampires, but if they are, then their tactics will be stupid because they are stupid. cunning, but stupid.

[Johnathan]

sure I've seen it, It's a new power, it wasn't in the core.
and Speed x 10 , Assuming average of 10, +10 for being in morphus.. is only 14 Mph
x 10 , 140m ph, and How often is a bane gonna have that power?

How often is he gonna be able to keep spending PPE after using high energy attacks on other foes, Like hounds, hunters, and demons?
How often does a Bane get to recover his PPE base back after only getting 5 PPE per hour of REST.
If A bane is constantly fighting, how the hell is he supposed to rest Other then a few hours of sleep he might get , if he's so ninjamatic?

your relying upon alot of what ifs and the Setting and rules say I'm right, the NBSG, while new, has had little impact upon the setting. Sure , A few Banes are Expressly built around being powerful in all ways. but Face it, BY THE SETTING, BANES ARE NOT THAT POWERFUL versus ALL opponents.

Also, Banes are vulnerable to Guns and explosives.
Vampires? NOT SO.
Suicide Vest Vampires are going to come up If Banes annoy a master vampire too much.

Ah. See. Now we're taking other factors into account... Nightlord minions (who also hate vampires), demons (who generally dislike the vampires on principle...), etc Add in a sprinkle of nightbane and vampire into the mix and we have a quandary...

We have 4 sides who, generally, will not work together logically (yes exceptions to rule apply, see Lady Lilith).

AND we are applying a setting (I.E. - a four way slobber knocker...). Yes. The bane are going to be insanely hard pressed to come out alive unless they are incredibly cunning/powerful/wily, etc.

However, Canon gives an example of a Master Vampire in the nightbane setting who has managed to survive as long as he has NOT because he is the all-powerful vampire menace but through things like patience, subterfuge, deception, misdirection, etc. he's only managed to live this long by being extremely cautious about EVERYTHING.

Let's assume our generic vampire menace is the same. Deceptive, cunning and cautious. Under THESE specific guidelines, our vampire problem is less of a vampire curb-stomping session and more a, "how can I play my enemies against each other" deal. That tilts the scales a tad in the vampires favor for he/she/they/it will not be foolish enough to endanger themselves for the sake of something as silly as... Pride.

... Oh crap. There's a problem, right there. That pride thing. Vampires have this really nasty tendency to be overly proud and egotistical creatures. And why shouldn't they!? They're invincible in comparison to their mortal origins! Herein lies where 99% of vampires eff themselves, badly. Ungash the Undying is an excellent example of vampiric pride being their downfall. His family, killed. Him, banished. The only reason HE still lives is because he was forced to learn a powerful lesson in humility. Being the never-forgetful type that vampires are, he remembers his lesson like it was yesterday. For all his might, power, ability and horde... He failed. Defeated. By mortals no less!!

Lesson? If a bunch of mortals can destroy a vampire nest and banish it's Master... Why should bane have any greater a difficulty?

[Hendrik]

I agree with Johnathan.

I think the problem here is that too many people are inclined to buy into the vampire mythos. The mythos is fine, but in Nightbane they stand against another "magical story", the Nightbane who are every bit as "super" and fearsome as a vampire. The question is not can an augmented human stand against count Dracula but can "Batman" and the "Fantastic Four" stand against a RIFTS type vampire.

A vampire has 3D6x10 HPs (secondary, wild, etc. have less). Let's say it is a vampire with loads of HPs: 200 HP. It will ignore most weapon damages, completely! However, Nightbane (supernatural) damage will be taken of directly from HPs. Vampires regenerate 2D6 HPs per melee round and will only fall into a stasis at -21 HPs.

All Nightbane cause supernatural damage. A P.S. of around 25 is nothing unusal. Let's assume a Nightbane has 5 attacks in melee. Each punch will cause about 4D6+12 or so supernatural damage, i.e. on average 26 points. If all strikes get through, even in the absence of Nat'20s the vampire will be down after 2 rounds and his regeneration will help none (average 7 points per round).

Damage as well as "taking it"-capacity will vary considerably depending on the Nightbane's form. One of the Nightbanes in my party has 280 SDC and (silver form) takes half damage from most attacks and his own damage dealing capacity is anything but shabby. Another Nightbane of my group causes damage of 7D6+19+2D6 fire damage ... on a normal blow. All very legitimate Nightbane characters who stand extremely good chances to kick the crap out of a vampire.

Of course, there are loads of other variables:

- not all strikes will hit: ok, true, but then the thing will just be extended
- hey, the vampire will hit, too: true again, in a slugging it out match I think (full) Vampire and Nightbane are quite evenly matched
- intelligence in approach / cunning: I think that goes both way and is no "natural" advantage for vampires.
- supporting cast: sure a vampire who is clever and powerful enough will have a supporting cast. That however will be vulnerable to normal weapons (often). A normal Nightbane will swipe away 1 average human per strike, 2 for someone trained (i.e. with more than the basic SDC). Besides stacking the cards like that should not make forget that Nightbane do not need to act alone or without support. If the Nightbane attack a vampire like a small gang of cowboys "mano-on-mano", like it is a 1980s dungeon adventure ... duh ... well, that only works in movies or if the Nightbane are especially lucky.

Cheers
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

I have used NSG, true, but the essential part / damage capacity here comes from the core rule:

All Nightbane cause supernatural damage, their PS is supernatural (cf. inter alia page 34 of the Nightbane core book). That means that the punch and power punch damages will be as listed under supernatural strength and that melee weapons add the "punch" damage to the weapon damage (page 35 ibid.). Consequently, for example, a wooden spear or stake are so much more piercing.

When you say that using NSG is against canon, what do you mean and why should it be against canon? The NSG is part of canon and states that the nightbane form table are to be used instead of the ones in the core book but rather includes them ... Please explain.

[Hendrik]

The NSG Gives Material bonuses for appearances that didn't exist prior. For example, the entire undead, Angelic/demon morphuses give abilities that generally did not exist prior ...

True, of course. It is a new book after all...

... and use a reasoning that goes against the original concepts.

I do not know about that. I think the possibilities of the Nightbane setting are broader than "CJ's vision". Besides, I do not think that any of what has been done in NSG is contrary to the gist of the Nightbane setting.

I know they appeared in rifter as well, but I never use the fanciful morphuses unless I was running a Diffirent Era of Nightbane. for example, Crusades era.. the angel/church motiff stuff makes Sense. but for a 20th/21st century game: it's incredulous.

Indcredulous? Are your sure that is the best choice of term when talking about a fiction were vampires and shapeshifters and all sorts of ghoulies and ghosties walk the earth as if it was the next realistic thing to strawberry ice cream?

Anyway, isn't it beautiful how different attitudes to a setting can be and how well Nightbane is playable in so - seemingly - dissimilar interpretations?

I have heard nothing yet why you thought NSG is not canon? I still do not understand. Let me offer you my understanding for your kind consideration:

Canon means the body of official rules. The NSG is obviously part of the official rules. One may not like certain rules. One may disapprove of a whole book even. All is well there. One may interpret the setting in a restrictive fashion (as I think you do) or a broader sense (as you might think I do), both is good. However, allow me to say that one should not confuse his interpretation of the setting or something as elusive (and largely irrelevant for the question of what is part of the canon of rules) as "CJ's vision" - the Nightbane as one may perceive them to be reflected in the first couple of books, really - with what is part of canon. The official canon is larger than that part of canon creation that took part under the tutelage of CJ. I am referring to CJ and the often used term "CJ's vision" because you used "traditional" and I assume that you meant the body of books that were written by/with CJ. No doubt the Nightbane setting was great before, but it has not become less since then. I tend to think it has improved a lot by giving players more options. Options you can naturally ignore as any part of the rules.

Personally, I love to play Nightbane in various forms. I like the dark horror setting, but I also I like the tragic super hero (against his own will) vs. "demon" invaders and body snatchers. I think it is good that Nightbane, even though it is a very "narrow" setting type allows quite a few play types and setting interpretations.

Also personally I do not like the argument "this is canon", "no it ain't" because it does not help much. As Kevin often said "whatever floats your boat" ... Notwithstanding, as long as you apply the rules as are - and I do not use a single house rule - one plays within canon ... my above statements regarding the powers in a conflict with vampires were thence completely legitimate.

your parties' group of super banes... Totally using NSB instead of normal nightbane generation tables, is again playing against canon. Traditionally banes were "tough" but their forms didn't really add much to their damage capability, other then with adding newlimbs or weaponized appendages.

Hence, that claim (quoted and bolded therein) is IMVHO not correct.

Just so there is no confusion allow me to reiterate: I do not mind at all if you play differently, apply different rules, apply them in a restrive, lenient or even random fashion. As long as you are happy with your style, awesome. Just do not claim because I play not "traditionally" (whatever that is supposed to be), I play out of the bounds of the rules (canon = body of the official rules).

Cheers
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

The NSG is more of a Revamp of Nightbane, a Half Edition. It was an attempt to make it inline with the 2.0 Era of books. Tracing the banes to some .. Indian princess is some complete Bullcrap that doesn't make any sense what so ever. that roughly Limits the Banes existence to 1400 AD or so, and We got Banes OLDER THEN THAT. The author meant well but was just full of stupid on these backstories. Not to mention, we had another instance of " Young Nightlord" being referred to as a Nightprince. NIGHTPRINCES ARE A TOTALLY DIFFIRENT KIND OF ENTITY.

as for going against the canon: Morphus features were always Serious, Did not defy the greater laws of physics (toon? 2d? Stickfigure, Floating head? Sorry - these just do not apply) If a reshaper (who is a true formless one, (Cj's own remarks) Can't change into it, What the hell makes nightbanes capable of doing it?- they are not the creatures of dreams, but of nightmares. Banes are Ancient entities being reborn, not The whims of fanciful egotists being given form changing into a bane is supposed to be traumatic, not " I'm ready to be a Cape, Buddy-Jesus" A physical expression of the character's inner rage, trauma, and BASE desires. Ie, Ugly person turning into a Ken, or a blindman turning into a "perceptor" and such. not -- "I'm the chosen one of Akon , Fear my Magic rune skin"....

not to mention, alot of these "New Tables" Were expressly made to copy creatures and characters from Comics.
Nightbane is a horror game, not a comic book supers game.

I understand what you are saying, Rappanui. You have been quite clear.

1.
Now, maybe it would be worthwhile to take a step back. Allow me to suggest that we again have a look at the definition of "canon". Canon means all that is published as official material. Therefore, all the Nightbane books including NSG are canon. With the Rifter it is more wobbly as Palladium states the articles in the Rifter as only partially being canon, but the latter is beside the point.

You leave no doubt that you dislike at least a major part of what NSG did for (for you probably: to) the setting and with respect to added rules, notably regarding the Nightbane forms. You are free to dislike, disapprove and, of course, ignore any part of the NSG (or any other book). And with Voltaire I say, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". However, neither your arguments nor your disapproval uncanonizes the book.

2.
The whole point of what I am saying is this: what you do at your table is your affair and I commend you for your opinion and wish you nothing but continuing fun in the game we both like.

Yet, I respectfully submit that you should not elevate your opinion to tell your fellow gamer that his game is not within canon - and, hence, that my way of playing Nightbane is unsupported by the rules and thusly ignorably wrong, illegitimate, a quantité né­g­li­gea­b­le - as you in essence and consequence did here:

... your parties' group of super banes... Totally using NSB instead of normal nightbane generation tables, is again playing against canon. Traditionally banes were "tough" but their forms didn't really add much to their damage capability, other then with adding newlimbs or weaponized appendages...

Say you dislike my way of playing Nightbane and I shall be fine with it. Say that it is not within the rules, I would not mind if I was applying houserules. Say that your take of the setting - even if "backed" by old "canon" - is better, I shall applaud you for your traditionalism and taste. However, deny that I play within the rules I would wish you to at least honour a fellow gamer with a working argument and not just a denial of canon as your statement (quoted above) was.

3.
That aside, you seem to have deigned to ignore my argument that even without the application of the NSG, the damage capability (sans the fire damage) of a Nightbane would be EXACTLY the same under the auspices of solely the Nightbane core book. You do not see Nightbane as super heroes, and that is fine, but they are supernatural creatures causing supernatural damage, have a supernatural P.S. and regenerate as if there was no tomorrow. Actually, their regeneration is better than a vampires on average - 10 SDC/HP for a Nightbane versus 7 HP (2D6) for a vampire per round.

I think that the Nightbane setting (and rules) accomodates your (restrictive) interpretation - which I also play, by the way, and enjoy immensely - just as well as mine (the tragic and dark superheroes in horror).

Cheers
Hendrik

[Johnathan]

The NSG is more of a Revamp of Nightbane, a Half Edition. It was an attempt to make it inline with the 2.0 Era of books. Tracing the banes to some .. Indian princess is some complete Bullcrap that doesn't make any sense what so ever. that roughly Limits the Banes existence to 1400 AD or so, and We got Banes OLDER THEN THAT. The author meant well but was just full of stupid on these backstories. Not to mention, we had another instance of " Young Nightlord" being referred to as a Nightprince. NIGHTPRINCES ARE A TOTALLY DIFFIRENT KIND OF ENTITY.

as for going against the canon: Morphus features were always Serious, Did not defy the greater laws of physics (toon? 2d? Stickfigure, Floating head? Sorry - these just do not apply) If a reshaper (who is a true formless one, (Cj's own remarks) Can't change into it, What the hell makes nightbanes capable of doing it?- they are not the creatures of dreams, but of nightmares. Banes are Ancient entities being reborn, not The whims of fanciful egotists being given form changing into a bane is supposed to be traumatic, not " I'm ready to be a Cape, Buddy-Jesus" A physical expression of the character's inner rage, trauma, and BASE desires. Ie, Ugly person turning into a Ken, or a blindman turning into a "perceptor" and such. not -- "I'm the chosen one of Akon , Fear my Magic rune skin"....

not to mention, alot of these "New Tables" Were expressly made to copy creatures and characters from Comics.
Nightbane is a horror game, not a comic book supers game.

I understand what you are saying, Rappanui. You have been quite clear.

1.
Now, maybe it would be worthwhile to take a step back. Allow me to suggest that we again have a look at the definition of "canon". Canon means all that is published as official material. Therefore, all the Nightbane books including NSG are canon. With the Rifter it is more wobbly as Palladium states the articles in the Rifter as only partially being canon, but the latter is beside the point.

You leave no doubt that you dislike at least a major part of what NSG did for (for you probably: to) the setting and with respect to added rules, notably regarding the Nightbane forms. You are free to dislike, disapprove and, of course, ignore any part of the NSG (or any other book). And with Voltaire I say, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". However, neither your arguments nor your disapproval uncanonizes the book.

2.
The whole point of what I am saying is this: what you do at your table is your affair and I commend you for your opinion and wish you nothing but continuing fun in the game we both like.

Yet, I respectfully submit that you should not elevate your opinion to tell your fellow gamer that his game is not within canon - and, hence, that my way of playing Nightbane is unsupported by the rules and thusly ignorably wrong, illegitimate, a quantité né­g­li­gea­b­le - as you in essence and consequence did here:

... your parties' group of super banes... Totally using NSB instead of normal nightbane generation tables, is again playing against canon. Traditionally banes were "tough" but their forms didn't really add much to their damage capability, other then with adding newlimbs or weaponized appendages...

Say you dislike my way of playing Nightbane and I shall be fine with it. Say that it is not within the rules, I would not mind if I was applying houserules. Say that your take of the setting - even if "backed" by old "canon" - is better, I shall applaud you for your traditionalism and taste. However, deny that I play within the rules I would wish you to at least honour a fellow gamer with a working argument and not just a denial of canon as your statement (quoted above) was.

3.
That aside, you seem to have deigned to ignore my argument that even without the application of the NSG, the damage capability (sans the fire damage) of a Nightbane would be EXACTLY the same under the auspices of solely the Nightbane core book. You do not see Nightbane as super heroes, and that is fine, but they are supernatural creatures causing supernatural damage, have a supernatural P.S. and regenerate as if there was no tomorrow. Actually, their regeneration is better than a vampires on average - 10 SDC/HP for a Nightbane versus 7 HP (2D6) for a vampire per round.

I think that the Nightbane setting (and rules) accomodates your (restrictive) interpretation - which I also play, by the way, and enjoy immensely - just as well as mine (the tragic and dark superheroes in horror).

Cheers
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

When I meant Canon, I meant more " APocryphal". If I release a rulebook that changes everything around, That book is Not part of the original Canon, but A new canon. Alot like Original 2e *AD&D in the 80s) and Revised 2e. (mid 90s) They were numismatically Compatible, but that was where it ended. The Revisions invent history, Create Paradox where none existed before, and generally tweak the setting in a way that did not exist before. You'll have to tweak everything to explain the sudden powerup factions now have, and pretty much run it as an alternate history game.

Thank you. I think I understand now that you "simply" take issue in an amendment of the setting and rules that you see as endangering what you love. I think if you were to take a step back and re-read the NSG as a treasure trove of ideas rather than a "all-or-nothing-must-apply" book, you might find the book as valuable as I do.

If you would treat the book as apocryphal it would actually help. The Palladium website "cutting room floor" or the Rifter (for the most part) are apocryphal, i.e. something that got cut out from the "main edition" and that may or may not legitimately be treated as part of "the true book".

[Nekira Sudacne]

sure I've seen it, It's a new power, it wasn't in the core.
and Speed x 10 , Assuming average of 10, +10 for being in morphus.. is only 14 Mph
x 10 , 140m ph, and How often is a bane gonna have that power?

How often is he gonna be able to keep spending PPE after using high energy attacks on other foes, Like hounds, hunters, and demons?

How often does a Bane get to recover his PPE base back after only getting 5 PPE per hour of REST.
If A bane is constantly fighting, how the hell is he supposed to rest Other then a few hours of sleep he might get , if he's so ninjamatic?

your relying upon alot of what ifs and the Setting and rules say I'm right, the NBSG, while new, has had little impact upon the setting. Sure , A few Banes are Expressly built around being powerful in all ways. but Face it, BY THE SETTING, BANES ARE NOT THAT POWERFUL versus ALL opponents.

Huh? wait, what's this now? Now your saying the nightbane is going to be tuckered out because he already fought demons and hounds without rest, AND now he's trying to take on a pack of how many vampires without having taken a few weeks off? And where in heck did you get "The bane has been constantly fighting.

With all due respect, it's impossible to have a rational discussion if two people can't agree on the senario.

Why do you assume one lone nightbane vs. a pack of vampires? There are not one but several nightbane-oriented factions, the nightbane is just as likely to have 'bane buddies as vampires.

Why do you assume the nightbane has been busy fighting and hasn't had a chance to rest and recover? I might as well say the fights taking place in the daytime.

Why do you assume the nightbane who's taking on a pack of vampires isn't one who's developed combat-oriented talents?

Can you really say your approaching this discussion fairly when you keep altering the senario?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Because a Ninjamatic Superbane doesn't need Allies. He only Needs More Ninjas.

No, no, in a world this dangerous even the Ninjamatic bane have allies. I'm not sure why you think just having good combat skills means your automatically a loner.

The scenario has been "Regular" banes versus Vampires.

I think this is what needs to be cleared up, because what you consider a SuperWombat to me IS an average bane.

So what do you think a regular bane is?

[Tor]

Are the Vampires a worthy foe to fight the Nightbane? It seems to me no, I worry that the players that are playing the Nightbane will just walk all over the Vamps. I've never used Vampires in any campaigns that I've run in the past and want to know what your experiences with vampires as villains are.

You have to keep numbers in mind. 1 to 1 an average nightbane can probably beat an average vamp, perhaps (keep in mind that your average nightbane's probably not as strong as the usual PC nighbane, some only have 1 or 2 characteristics differing from human).

But how many vampires are there? Every human on earth is a potential vampire, and by the time a nightbane tracks down their lair, they may have stockpiled quite the undead family.

Vampires may be able to easily outnumber a vampire, and this really evens out the odds. Vampires probably know how to do things like remove stakes from their friends, for example, before you can take them to the nearest shower.

Yup...I treat vampires as ambush killers. They ain't stupid.

Their shifting and misting abilities make them potent...they are immortal, they are patient, they will wait until their victim is alone.

They don't even need to do that, really.

Let's say a vampire flees because they can't win the fight out in the alleyway.

Say a nightbane tracks them down to their lair in the basement of an abandoned building.

If I was a smart secondary or master vampire, I'd figure out that kinetic damage doesn't hurt me, but does tend to hurt other stuff.

So, if my base was getting overwhelmed with guys who could kill me:

Dynamite, anyone?

The explosion and crushing weight of the building wouldn't hurt the vampires (unless of course there were some wooden beams, which might stake and temporarily inconvenience a few of them), it would probably take out the majority of their opponents.

Those opponents who survived the damage would be pinned (even the strongest PC can't lift your average building), and could possibly suffocate.

In the meantime, the vampires can turn into mist and escape to fight another day, build up more minions, etc.

Though perhaps before leaving, they might turn into rats and scurry through the wreckage to bite off the PC's faces, perhaps ignite a gas line, etc.

Naturally the water pipes leading into the building would be disconnected ahead of time.

[Hendrik]

Say a nightbane tracks them down to their lair in the basement of an abandoned building. If I was a smart secondary or master vampire, I'd figure out that kinetic damage doesn't hurt me, but does tend to hurt other stuff. So, if my base was getting overwhelmed with guys who could kill me: Dynamite, anyone? The explosion and crushing weight of the building wouldn't hurt the vampires (unless of course there were some wooden beams, which might stake and temporarily inconvenience a few of them), it would probably take out the majority of their opponents. Those opponents who survived the damage would be pinned (even the strongest PC can't lift your average building), and could possibly suffocate. In the meantime, the vampires can turn into mist and escape to fight another day, build up more minions, etc. Though perhaps before leaving, they might turn into rats and scurry through the wreckage to bite off the PC's faces, perhaps ignite a gas line, etc. Naturally the water pipes leading into the building would be disconnected ahead of time.

Tor, you make an excellent point there!

As has been said before the success chances for either side in a fight between Nightbane and Vampire will depend on:

- intelligence (meaning information on the other side as well as how well either side deploys, respectively uses its abilities)
- numbers (as per usual in a confrontation)
- surprise factor (does one side have surprise? how well did they combatants prepare for the confrontation?)
- abilities

Looking at it this way the issue is really no different from any type of armed conflict.

One item, though, is different: vampires are all more or less the same in weaknesses and strength. Individual "spell abilities" may differ, yes, as will the levels of strength (wild, secondary, master, etc. type of vampire) but what will make it more difficult for the vampire(s) - for all its formidable strengths, no two Nightbanes are the same. It has been said that a Nightbane could be disadvantaged vis-a-vis vampires depending on how much he knows about vampires. That is true. However, anyone has some ideas about vampires - and some of those movie/book things, easily accessible to the Nightbane in the year 2000 (!), prove to be true when the vampire thing comes up for "real". We cannot ignore that. Vampires, though, will know nothing or little about the Nightbane - depending on how frequent or old you interpret the NIghtbane phenomenon. That said, vampires will know nothing about the concrete individual Nightbane! This makes it a bit more incalculable for the vampire than vice versa for an informed Nightbane, methinks.

Cheers
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

Hi there,

sorry about the wall of text, but I felt it important not to answer in the abbreviated style but exactly:

I was thinking along the lines of : Vampires only quick kill is water. If said bane doesn't know..
most vamps are impervious to fire till staked...
Nightbanes don't have fire talents, not unless you get into rifters.
vampires have faster regeneration then banes.. that means they can escape faster.
your only real advantage is that you can identify the vampire while in daylight.. at night, the vampire is generally faster and can run away or bring in more of his kind to attack you.

Rappanui,

I thought I go back to one of your central statements. Let us assume we are only applying the books you see as relevant. Two cents:

1. SUPERNATURAL STRENGTH IS A GOOD EQUALIZER: What forms of "quick kill" exist is not the only conflict deciding factor. As I stated above, both Nightbane and Vampires have supernatural strength. Even the most average Nightbane will - according to the core book - have supernatural strength of 20 or 21 depending on whether you round the average up of down (P.S. 10.5 +10 in morphus form). That means a punch damage of 2D6+5/4d6+5 (P.S. 20) or 3D6+6/6D6+6 (P.S. 21). Supernatural strength will make direct damage to a vampires HP. Granted, a vampire has a higher average and like supernatural strength, but it would be a fight of "equal footing" in so far as each can hit the other and the vampires resistance/immunities does not work there.

2. VAMPIRES DO NOT REGENERATE FASTER: Vampires do not regenerate faster. That is simply incorrect. I have quoted the core rules in one of my posts above. Vampire regeneration is 2D6 per round. Nightbane regeneration is 10 per round in morphus form. Thus, on average Nightbane regeneration is better/faster.

3. NIGHTBANE DO NOT HAVE A DAY TIME WEAKNESS: As you said rightly, Vampires cannot act in daylight and will be killed by sunlight rather quickly. That is a huge vampire disability. Sure, they can "hire" help to protect them during the day, maybe use wards, surely will use traps, but it remains: the vampire will not be able to act. I think the best course of a Nightbane to have an "easy" kill on a vampire would be to seek the undead out during daytime. The Nightbane advantage is that he can act at any time, day or night.

Now back to the OP!

The scenario has been "Regular" banes versus Vampires. People altered it with " SuperWombats"

Sorry, but that is very wrong. Here is what the OP was:

Are the Vampires a worthy foe to fight the Nightbane? It seems to me no, I worry that the players that are playing the Nightbane will just walk all over the Vamps. I've never used Vampires in any campaigns that I've run in the past and want to know what your experiences with vampires as villains are.

4. CONTENT OF OP UNRESTRICTED: Thusly, the OP was very simply "vampire(s) vs. nightbanes". There was no restriction in scenario as regards (a) numbers or (b) actual combat circumstances (one-on-one, complicated lair, mass fight, numbers advantage on one side, etc.). Most of all (c) there was NO restriction to only a limited amount of offical books. The latter is what I perceive as your wish, but is has not been a restriction by the OP's OPEN question.

5. NSG NIGHTBANE ARE REGULAR NIGHTBANE: Nightbanes created under the use of all books, including the NSG, are "regular" Nightbane. As I ventured to argue, while your opinion what constitutes the "right way to understand setting and rules" is naturally fine and to be respected, you cannot reduce what canon is (not in your power but at your table).

6. ON "OPEN QUESTIONS": One should, I think, also not undertake to turn an OPEN question into a closed question as you try to do. I know this is a classic in Arguments 101 but I tend to think it is not cricket, at least, when it is used to (also) make light of the - legitimate in terms of canon and to be respected anyway, I would like to underline - opinions of others.

Some words regarding "superheroes" (please read):

7. NIGHTBANE MUST NOT BE SUPERHEROES, BUT THEY ARE "SUPER": Moreover, I would like to underline that even the core rule Nightbane are "aces", "special", "super", in any case "supernatural" creatures ... just as Vampires are. An encounter of Nightbane(s) vs. Vampire(s) will never be like meek Jonathan Harker and knowledgable but normal human van Helsing vs. the almost all powerful Dracula (talking about the book and not one of the movies). For that one would need to play the awesome BtS with only the "Ordinary Person OCC" (Victim OCC in the 1st edition). In Nightbane it will, no matter how you interpret setting and rules it will always be one supernatural creature versus another.

8. SUPERHERO MYTHOLOGY, MORE DIVERSE THAN ONE MAY THINK: If you have a closer look at superhero mythology, and there have been a lot of great examples since the late 80s of a novel and different take (Watchmen, Kingdom Come, Faust, Kick Ass, Astro City series, Wanted, Iredeemable, etc. etc.), you will find that "superheroes" are a lot more than the "classic" Superman, Batman, etc. I know in one of my posts I made a glossy example of those to illustrate my point, but as will be apparent from my posts: superheroes need not be caped crusaders, superheroes can be tragic heroes, they can have real life problems - with their powers and in "facade" - beyond the Peter Parker "syndrome". Superheroes can be blended with a horror scenario extremely well. Regarding the latter, while "my" Nightbane may be more "super" than yours, it is a wonderfully tragical tale to first give them the impression to be "super(natural)" and then - as part of classic horror - crush their high hopes for themselves as they suddenly "wake up" in a country worthy of 1984 with horrors lurking at every corner that is also beyond normal understanding ... Also, in the more modern superhero mythology all of the old axioms are broken or at least questioned:

* "superheroes never use lethal power": Big Daddy in Kick Ass is a great example to the contrary and so is The Comedian in Watchmen or even The Punisher.
* "society embraces the superheroes, they are only rarely persecuted": Spiderman already broke that axiom, in modern comic book literature this is much more pronounced, Kingdom Come is a wonderful example
* "superheros do not really age": that taboo was broken for Batman, for superman, but best of all in Watchmen
* "superheroes do good, supervillains do bad": Faust (Vigil/Quinn) is an awesome if extremely violent counter example with the superhero as antihero. Of course old heroes like the Submariner are another, but only newer comics like Irredeemable make it the theme.
*"superheroes always win": Wanted (Mark Millar / J. G. Jones) is a great counter example.

I think that Nightbane can serve as a great playing field for an even more original take on the superhero genre, but I am NOT saying you or anyone must do as I there. What I am saying here is: Even within the confines (even though I say "confines", I do not see that as a negative at all) of its setting Nightbane allows such a rich diversity - N.B.: without bending the rules. That should be commended and embraced but, at least, I submit, accepted or tolerated. I will also add: the same is possible under the core rules, although the heroes then are a tad less varied (meant neutral, not negative) and a little less powerful (although in my considered opinion NSG is no power creep but rather well balanced, but some abilities, of course, are then just not there).

9. FORGET THE "REAL" SUPERHEROES ... BUT MAY A NIGHTBANE NOT TAKE HIMSELF FOR ONE?: Finally, let me give you a further item for thought, and the following stands with or without NSG: The nightbane setting is a modern setting. No matter if you play it 1999 or 2012, most of those mostly youngsters turning into Nightbane will have a basic or even geeky understanding of the superhero mythology. It is unavoidable: superheroes have been with us via comic books, books, radio, TV and movies since the 1930s! (Arguably before that in the form of for example classical greek heroes and half-gods (Hercules for example). Does it not stand to reason that someone turning into his worst nightmare or deepest desire will - in order to avoid insanity - try to "rationalize" it or try to come to terms with his new me by for example thinking he has turned into a superhero? I do not say it is a compulsive consequence, but it surely is one of the possible ways to deal with it ... Of course, they are no superheroes as a Superman or - shazam - Captain Marvel (DC) but their new abilities go far, far beyond what was ever dreamt as being humanly possible.

Anyway, I would like to ask you respectfully and humbly to please stop ridiculing the use of the NSG or playing with a tad more "super" Nightbanes as "superwombats" etc. My players and I have a lot of fun at my table, it is an "offical" (what ever that matters) way to play and apply the rules and - while it is not of huge impact whether other gamers like that or not - I would rather see this treated, at least, in a like respectful manner as I would treat anybody else's game, in fact: as I treat your opinion. It would be an entirely different matter had you said "I ignore the NSG because ... Under my restrictive approach of the rules, Vampires are stronger because ...". While ridicule is nothing to be scared of (in the words of the great Adam Ant), it is not a good tool for a discussion.

However, maybe I misunderstand so much of what you said.

Respectfully submitted,
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

Hi there,

as I said before I get where you are coming from and what you see as proper. I am not contesting your taste our choices, both are yours. I merely argue that in spite of your preferences the Nightbane setting accomodates various ways of playing with just as much justification.

That said, you are obviously very knowledable with respect to the Nightbane setting. I think that is wonderful, and we share a love for the same game.

I thank you for your kindness to refrain from further, let me call it, humourous quibs. 

I submit that the basic premise of the Nightbane setting is as simple as brilliant: a couple of extremely powerful entities from another dimension constantly squabbling between themselves and with the power to warp reality are desirous to conquer earth. They are literally hungry for pain and suffering they cause, ie they feed on negative emotions. Their troops include body snatchers, powerful warriors of steel, etc. Essentially it is an alien invasion scenario, clandestine mostly but there you are. The defense of humanity for a good part falls to the Nightbane, humans for reasons unknown who can change into vastly more powerful creatures, all of which are pretty unique and have extremely varied abilities. To spice it all up and explain some there is a truck load of mythological mumbo jumbo (I like it but that is what it is), and whole armies of ghulies and ghosties, vampires, demons, etc etc. Magic works, psionics work, a modern setting but twisted wonderfully like no other.

I argue that that basic premise invites or at least accomodates the expansions under the NSG. Well, I applaud it because the tragic horror superhero thing was my immediate first thought when I read the core book.

Your argument is that certain aspects of the "mythology" are true while others you claim to be false. Your second argument is that certain powers/forms do not fit with your interpretation of the mythology.

Your argument one is not compulsive as the setting intentionally is open to interpretation. Your second argument is to be respected as well but it is also correct: in a specified setting interpretation certain forms etc will not fit. I agree that several from NSG would not be that good for your game.

I now really would like to know two things from you:
1. What do you think about Nightbane explaining or even seeing themselves as superheroes (I gave an explanation above) or why not?
2. The Uther Pendragon and Arthur legend(s) are Welsh in origin. Geoffrey of Monmouth history of the kings of britain preceeds Henry II. Why do you think "Pendragon" belongs to another game line (an entirely different question would be if any of the legend fits with nightbane)?

Cheers
Hendrik

[Nekira Sudacne]

Ok. Average Bane:
about on par or Weaker then BURGER FACE from Nightlands. Or that Resistance NB sorceror, also in the same book. he's not all that, and i've seen Pc's run around with level 1 banes that can trash Burger face with half their limbs tied behind their back.
And I say , half, because they got NUMEROUS arms lol
.
If your Bane Can Beat the snot out of Eliminator (npc) without breaking a sweat, it's Been tweaked to comic book levels. (And the NSG Even Comments, To stop such things from happening)

NinjaMatic Banes are the equivalent of Naruto-Toad Sage in a Weaker Ninja setting (Say Ninja Scroll).
average banes really upon Weapons just as much as a human does, because you're not fighting hounds all the time. and the enemies of Banes include more then just Nightland creatures vulnerable to their physical strikes.

Okay then. Lets try to keep this as purely average then.

We're going to assume the guy has purely average physical stats (9-14), no real physical training (Maybe something taken as a secondary like running or athletics, instead of big ones like boxing or gymnastics), in his facade form.

Then even if we assume he gets nothing of combat value but some extra SDC (we'll say 30) from traits beyond the morphus itself, we're still talking someone who does around 3d6+8 on punches, has around 100 SDC and 50 HP, and a lot of talents to choose from. just say giving him shadow whip or shadow sheild he'll do fine aginst a vampire 1 on 1, and frankly, he'd go vampire hunting in the day.

So i'm still not sure where your coming from. If this average bane is played assuming that nightbane are just as cunning as vampires, the edge goes to nightbane.

[Nekira Sudacne]

thats really the biggest difference of opinion I think I see with your veiw: that the majority of 'bane are loners. from my reading of the books, I get the impression that solo banes are confined to either the very very old or the very very new. Unless your positing that we're talking one single lone bane who litterally JUST morphed two days ago and hasn't been found yet, then i'm assuming the average bane IS a member of a faction, has been told how to fight things, and has 4-6 buddies to back him up. Because thats exactly the senario the books present AS average when I see them.

the other issue is that you assume that vampires always hunt in packs, whereas it's been stated that they mostly hunt solo. So to me, you seem to be reversing how it actually goes. an average fight between completely average NPC's will see 4-6 average nightbane vs 1 average vampire, and EVEN IF you reverse it, attacking in a day and belonging to a faction gives you enough basic knowlage for that nightbane to come out on top.

[Nekira Sudacne]

whoops. talk about a typo. I meant to say nightbane comes out on top!

[Hendrik]

I now really would like to know two things from you:
1. What do you think about Nightbane explaining or even seeing themselves as superheroes (I gave an explanation above) or why not?
2. The Uther Pendragon and Arthur legend(s) are Welsh in origin. Geoffrey of Monmouth history of the kings of britain preceeds Henry II. Why do you think "Pendragon" belongs to another game line (an entirely different question would be if any of the legend fits with nightbane)?

Cheers
Hendrik

I Think that superhero banes Are ok, IN A CROSSOVER SCenario. as part of the default setting ? No way.
When I ran NB Way back I combined reformed demons and such, but nothing was too over the top, except how certain players treated each other, but that was something not Dictated by the setting, it was inter faction conflict. (one guy wanted to go it solo, the rest were Lightbringers or Seekers or Other factions, as supported by the older Nightbane books)
there's nothing stopping a GM from running an alternate period game and allowing the goofier tables, that's fine, it's ok, but If I ran a Dark day game and Suddenly Someone hands me a "legal" but Goofy Asteroth/Soul Calibur character clone, I'm rejecting the character.
if i was running a mixed genre game where they already had a Long history of " Capes " (powered or not) or a setting where the Church still ran things (Anima, Beyond Fantasy ) or various NB/HU Crossovers... Then i would Allow certain morphuses.

Instead , We got a Setting where ruthless gangsters are Now People Eating Monsters, and Banes are forced to hide behind Battlezones, Astral domains, or Underground places Just to be among their own kind... a Bane that tries to do the same routine in a proper Nightbane Setting would get eaten by the nightlord minions or worse (For example, his former friends and allies are now being hunted and he can't do much to hide them, without the underground railroad to ferry them to safety somewhere).

Now, A possible Angle That would support a "bane/superhero" character is if a bane is willingly working with Lilith in her Evil Schemes and making Violent TV.. he plays as one of her costumed gladiators and you get something akin to the situation in the movie " Running Man"

As for Iosef Pendragon == Not a character in the welsh myth. IS a character in Pentacle Entertainment's PENDRAGON Rpg. The Welsh Version Referred to ACTUAL peoples ( they would describe people who behaved and dressed/looked a certain way) and not Mythological Races (Elder Races of Moorcock fiction, I'm loooking at you!) . any Links to fairies and druidic rituals are 20th century inventions by people who liked to combine UK Myths for Nerd Entertainment purposes. Hell Druidism was invented whole cloth in the late 19th century ...

1. REAL "Capes"
"Real" meaning that being a superhero is the theme. Basically Gotham city darkday. A crossover would obviously be a fine solution for that. But that was not my question.

2. DELUSIONAL (?) "Capes"
Let us assume we just apply the core book, and maybe the first 2 or 3 sourcebooks. My argument and question was different. I agree that the becoming is a monumentuous experience. The nightbane morphus is supposed to be a physical "manifestation" of the nightbane's worst fears or greatest desire. Now, take a comic book fan, a superhero geek, etc. Someone who is really in love with the whole superhero mythos. He has never stopped to hope to be able to tear open his shirt, have a costume underneath and fly to the rescue. I imagine that the becoming would be quite the shock. I also think that most Nightbane will not look like their dream superhero. I am NOT talking application of any of the table you do not like. I am talking "psychology". Any nightbane will have to come to terms with being what he is or become insane (provided he survives the becoming and the next couple of hours). I am thinking along the lines of a nightbane - even in your restricted setting - explaining his nightbane-being as "being called upon", "being transformed into" a person with "super"-abilities (and even the weakest nightbane is exceptional!) "for a reason". You know, like Kick Ass ... only with VERY REAL superpowers (supernatural strength, extremely unnatural regeneration, immunity to lots of things, etc. etc.). In a 20th/21st century world where superheroes are on all TV channels, have been with us for 80 YEARS, are so much part of pop culture, pervasive to the extreme ... I think it is actually extremely likely that at least a couple of Nightbane will think the becoming is their "HULK change" or "SPIDERMAN bitten by the tiny spider" moment?

My point is that according to the core rules the becoming is this rare and mindboggling moment, but the Nightbane remain functional. They (by the rules) do not have to suffer trauma or insanities. I think it stands to reason - without playing it as a glossy superhero campaign - that some nightbane will think of their new powers as super(natural), i.e. ueberhuman. We can explain "super" away as we want to, there can be no doubt: nightbane are ueberhuman "creatures" with a set of abilities/powers that get them more than just close to below superman-level superheroes. Why should a nightbane not think that? Ugliness and horror does not have to deter "you" from embracing your ueberness, perhaps on the contrary: "I am a horror but I can do good. I am destined to be a hero and save the world." If (part of) that is not one of the classic superhero motives, I don't know which. Anyway ... would it not be "reasonable" as a reaction to the maelstrom of emotions and events surrounding the becoming and the dark day invasion consequences ... for a nightbane to become the (anti)hero? In fact, the nightbane are described as the (unwilling) champions of the world against the nightlords.

What do you think about that?

This, by the way, is basically what I am doing. I do not play a "real" superhero scenario. I do not overdramatize the becoming. I give the players a dramatic moment, yes, but then I essentially let themselves "find" themselves. Even if you forget completely about the new tables ... one player who is a firefighter uses his nightbane form to save people. He completely underwrites for himself "with great power ...". I never said he is a superhero but he instinctively behaves according to the mythos he knows. The next player is anything but a superhero - he is a small time criminal. He uses his nightbane form to be a better criminal. The third one is completely shocked by what she turned into and by the way the world has changed. It is all very satisfying. All I am saying is that even without the NSG the reaction of the players - who know nothing of the background (just as no or almost no Nightbane will KNOW anything at the beginning) - react to their new "me" and the brave new world the "wake up" in ...

3. Iosef Pendragon
O, alright. I had not thought about Iosef ... I was talking about the Arthur legend. The Arthur legend IMO IS NOT but only MAY BE rooted in something real - and then the question is how substantial such real sources are. You seem to be arguing on a very disputed topic there as if it was without question that Arthur, Urther, [King Lear, too?] etc. actually existed), but I may not get you there. Regarding "Pentacle Entertainment" ... can you give me a link (PM me if you want because it is not really part of the vampire discussion)?

I did not find a Pendragon RPG. I only know the old - and great - one by Chaosium (which IIRC has nothing to do with a Iosef Pendragon).

Cheers
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

Pendragon RPG I did confuse with Ars Magica, since both seem to cover the same time period, and many of the obnoxious Gms I've ran into combined the two settings....

Ah, Ars Magica - wonderful roleplaying game. A great way therein to play magic, very unique, very special, very difficult to play as it requires almost as much of a free mind and flexible GM as "Amber Diceless" does. Their version of middle ages' Europe is great. I will have to look it up at home but I assume that "Josef Pendragon" would probably be the "Joseph of Arimathea" legend.

With respect to Nightbane in general I think that the danger is high to explain legends and historical events alike as a result of Nightbanes or Nightlands repercussions (and vice versa) through the centuries. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but if overdone ... can hurt the logical "gums", i.e. setting credibility (even my more resilent tastes). Personally, I think the best backdrop is to say that all those interactions as well as the presence of pre dark day nightbane were EXTREMELY RARE. But that is just me, maybe.

I think it's fine what you described ...

Thank you.

... but not what you implied initiatlly earlier in the discussion.

Actually, it was not different.

I was arguing for the legitimacy of characters constructed under using the NSG earlier. I did not say one must play a superhero campaign. On the contrary, I said that characters under the NSG are not superheroes (per se). I said and think that you can play any Nightbane as a superhero - NOT classical capes, although why not wear a cape, eh? Nightbane look horrible enough, a cape may actually do some good even if it might incur an immediate -1 on Horror Factor - but antihero. You know, what Sam Spade is to Sherlock Holmes, Nightbane can be to "Batman".

I find that the diversity up through the NSG makes the superhero theme more likely or more possible. To turn it around, it makes a crossover - in terms of using powers from other games - less necessary if you want to play a more "super" themed campaign, for which I am glad. Anyway, but that is not saying one must play like that. Personally, I find every GM must look at any part of any of the form tables (etc) and decide which fits his take of the campaign. There is always something that does not fit so well. For example, I find sea creatures with no way to work out of the water superfluous and see it in my discretion to prohibt certain form combinations when they come up because they do not make sense ... unless the player can explain it and would enjoy it. As I said, ridicule is nothing to be scared of if you are happy with it

That has been a nice discussion. It is appreciated, Rappanui.

Cheers
Hendrik