Invulnerability Major Power

[Cyber-Knight]

So I've been looking at Invulnerability, and wow, it's ridiculously powerful. 700 MDC, Regenerate 1d6x10 MDC per Minute, and most importantly, you're totally immune to damage from just about anything except magic, psionics (unless it's an energy attack, in which case you're still immune), and supernatural attacks, and even then they still only do half damage. Is it just me, or is it damn near impossible to kill someone with Invulnerability? Stack Sonic Flight and Supernatural Strength on such a character (like the super-powered options for Scholars & Adventurers available in Conversion Book 1), and you have a damn near unstoppable juggernaut who can bring down immensely powerful opponents in a short amount of time while taking little to no damage in return.

Anyway, now that I've got that preamble out of the way, I have two questions.

1) Has anyone here ever had to deal with super-powered Vagabonds or Rogue Scholars zipping around with Sonic Flight and smashing everything in sight with Supernatural Strength all while being nearly impossible to kill thanks to Invulnerability? If so, how did it work out for you? How did you or your GM deal with that? 

2) Are there worthwhile defensive powers which aren't as outlandish as Invulnerability but aren't gimped by comparison? For instance, I've been looking at Matter Expulsion: Metal, Bio-Armor, and Ecto-Armor, and none of them provide anywhere near as much protection. Even disregarding the immunity to damage effect, none of them provide an MDC/SDC bonus anywhere near that provided by Invulnerability. So does anyone know of any power which provides something close to the 700 MDC which Invulnerability provides but without the additional immunity to nearly all damage effects?

I'd appreciate any insight you all have to offer into this. Thanks.

[Giant2005]

CB1r nerfed the amount of MDC provided by Invulnerability.
It is now just your HP + SDC combined.

[Cyber-Knight]

So it doesn't add 700 MDC anymore as it did in Skraypers? Is everything else still the same, though?

[Giant2005]

Everything else is the same.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Given a game I played in where an entire race all had Invunerability, it's really not as bad as you'd think. There are a lot of ways to keep them still while you wittle them down if you use magic properly.

Seriously, one magic net on that guy that hits and he's a helpless brick while you unload on him with TW guns.

[Cyber-Knight]

Well, there's the catch. Not every opponent will be specifically tailored for that. Throw that same guy up against the Coalition and he can run roughshod right over them. The only thing they have which could hurt him are psychics, and with his ability to instantly close the distance through Sonic Flight and the massive damage he can inflict on them through Supernatural Strength, he could eliminate those threats in no time.

Hell, Free Quebec's in an even worse pickle, as they don't even use psychics. Can you imagine what it'd be like to have thousands of Glitter Boys at your disposal and not being able to inflict a single point of damage?

[MADMANMIKE]

Well, there's the catch. Not every opponent will be specifically tailored for that. Throw that same guy up against the Coalition and he can run roughshod right over them. The only thing they have which could hurt him are psychics, and with his ability to instantly close the distance through Sonic Flight and the massive damage he can inflict on them through Supernatural Strength, he could eliminate those threats in no time.

Hell, Free Quebec's in an even worse pickle, as they don't even use psychics. Can you imagine what it'd be like to have thousands of Glitter Boys at your disposal and not being able to inflict a single point of damage?

The CS and FQ have both been known to use mercs, so there is always the possibility that your superhuman will run into one.

Likewise, don't forget knockdown; they might not be able to inflict damage with those Glitter Boys, but he's going to have one hell of a headache at the bottom of the crater he's created from the impact of those rounds...

[Cyber-Knight]

I think Free Quebec's more puritanical about that sort of thing. They won't deal with D-Bee's or Practitioners of Magic, period. Not even under the table and dealing with a human liaison. As for the Coalition, they might do that on the sly, but out in the open for all to see? Let's say Super-Vagabond decided to punch his way into Chi-Town. The Coalition's not going to hire a mercenary team of spell casters and supernatural creatures to step into the walls of Chi-Town and very publically fight on behalf of the Coalition. And even if they were willing, nobody would be dumb enough to accept, since it's guaranteed that the Coalition will kill them right after in order to shut them up. Nevermind the risk of whatever mercs they hire switching sides and teaming up with Super-Vagabond once they realize the kind of damage he can inflict on the Coalition...

[Razzinold]

I've never used the power before so I don't know all the ins and outs, but doesn't the character still have to breathe ?

So maybe poisonous gasses wouldn't harm them, but what about locking them in an MDC vault and sucking out all the oxygen?
I realize first you'd have to trap him with magic nets and such, so it would be harder too do for the average party.
How about using COA and drowning him ? or in the CS/FQ scenario, 3 or 4 PA pilots could grab the invulnerable person and either hold him under water, either his head or if your suit is underwater capable jump into a lake while holding on to him.

Use your mech to jam something in his mouth and nose and suffocate him, sure he's strong but jam something far enough down his windpipe and he won't be able to get it out, or just clamp your robot hand over his mouth.

[Shark_Force]

so far as i can tell, the invulnerability power does not give a substantial defense against rail guns or explosives. yeah, i know, it says that their only true vulnerability is magic and psionics, blah blah blah.

sure. whatever.

it doesn't say that physical attacks deal less than full damage, the default is that they do, and the part about being super-resistant to them is presumably encompassed in the high MDC and the regeneration.

free quebec would chew this guy up and spit him out in less than 15 seconds. he wouldn't even get a chance to use his regeneration before he got shredded by boom gun fire. the CS would take a bit longer, but would still have an easy enough time of it by cutting him apart with railguns and/or vibro-weapons all coming from their obscenely large numbers of soldiers of various types. 1d6x10/minute regeneration is a lot... up until you decide to do something stupid like picking a fight with a CS megacity.

now, against a CS patrol somewhere way out in nowhere land? yeah, he'd probably do pretty good. he'd still have to worry about dog boys with vibro-blades and SAMAS railguns, and mini-missiles, but at least there aren't supposed to be tens of thousands of those in the immediate area as is the case with a megacity. (and for the record, canonically speaking, the ISS has something like 1.5 million old-style SAMAS power armour suits and there's another 1.5 million in the military's warehouses... so yes, canonically speaking, there most likely are in fact literally tens of thousands available to any CS megacity)

and there's still the fact that if you decide to punch a robot vehicle, the robot vehicle may respond with grappling, entangling, or any number of other options that will limit your ability to attack as well as your ability to move, which will shortly be followed by large numbers of very unfriendly people with very pointy vibro weapons giving you an education in the meaning of "death by a thousand cuts".

now, the area where magic and psionics are their vulnerability, well, as has been pointed out, it's not in damage. using magic or psionics for damage is generally one of the worst choices you can make unless you're casting sphere of annihilation from a scroll or something like that. you use the spells/powers that completely remove an opponent from the fight, not the ones that deal damage. expect to be facing mind control, paralysis, immobility, and similar effects.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well, there's the catch. Not every opponent will be specifically tailored for that. Throw that same guy up against the Coalition and he can run roughshod right over them. The only thing they have which could hurt him are psychics, and with his ability to instantly close the distance through Sonic Flight and the massive damage he can inflict on them through Supernatural Strength, he could eliminate those threats in no time.

Actually, Invulnerable characters are (despite being impervious to energy attacks) somewhat vulnerable to particle beams (1/2 damage, iirc, as per Aliens Unlimited).
The Coalition has particle beam weapons.
For example, there is the CTT-P40 Particle Beam Cannon that can be used by power armor, which is the standard issue for the Striker SAMAS, but which is also frequently used by the Terror Trooper, full conversion Borgs, and the occasional CS Juicer.
The CTT-P40 inflicts 1d6x10 MD per shot, which would be 5-30 MD to an invulnerable character.

There's also the FIWS that the CS Juicers wear, which inflicts 1d6x10 MD per double-blast from the particle beams, which would likewise inflict 5-30 points of damage against an invulnerable character.

Also, Invulnerable characters are vulnerable to psionics, which would leave them vulnerable to any number of attacks by CS psychics, including direct damage attacks such as psi-sword.

And while the character might have supernatural PS, it could still be effectively grappled by robots and power armor.

If nothing else, a fuel-air bomb could suck the oxygen right out of the character's lungs, whether it burns him or not, and potentially kill him that way.

[Nightmask]

so far as i can tell, the invulnerability power does not give a substantial defense against rail guns or explosives. yeah, i know, it says that their only true vulnerability is magic and psionics, blah blah blah.

sure. whatever.

it doesn't say that physical attacks deal less than full damage, the default is that they do, and the part about being super-resistant to them is presumably encompassed in the high MDC and the regeneration.

A flawed interpretation of things, since the part you're dismissing does mean physical attacks don't do full damage. In fact it does mean that conventional attacks like rail guns don't do any damage at all. It's not invulnerability if it's just MDC and regeneration, that covers most supernatural creatures around that clearly aren't invulnerable. The actual power is quite clear you aren't harmed by any physical attack save in a few specific instances and rail guns including the Glitter Boy boom gun are still just conventional physical attacks that don't do any harm to an Invulnerable character.

[Cyber-Knight]

Exactly. You could line up 10,000 Glitter Boys all in a circle and have them fire simultaneously at a character with the Invulnerable power and he wouldn't have a scratch on him. Here's the power description:

An impressive power that makes the character almost an indestructible juggernaut. Most physical attacks do no damage whatsoever! This means cold, fire, heat, electricity, lasers, other types of energy, bullets, punches, falls, and so on, do no damage! Supernatural punches, bites and kicks inflict half damage; Extraordinary and Superhuman PS attacks do no damage, although they sting a bit.

Gases, drugs, chemicals, poisons, toxins, disease, and radiation will affect the invulnerable person, but are reduced to half the usual potency (half damage, duration, and effect). Deadly poisons, radiation and diseases cannot kill this character, only make him sick. The character still needs to breathe and eat, so he can die from drowning, suffocation, or starvation, but he can hold his breath and survive without food four times longer than the average human (hold breath for about 12 minutes; go without food for 80 days).

The character is only truly vulnerable to psionics, spell magic, magic illusions, and magic weapons, all of which have full effect. However, energy type magic, like fireballs, does no damage. He is also vulnerable to traps, pits, falls, etc.

So yeah, not only do physical attacks deal less than full damage, they deal no damage whatsoever. With its current armament Free Quebec stands no chance whatsoever of killing someone who has the above quoted power.

Actually, Invulnerable characters are (despite being impervious to energy attacks) somewhat vulnerable to particle beams (1/2 damage, iirc, as per Aliens Unlimited).

I’ll have to look that up. I’m going by the description in Heroes Unlimited and Skraypers, which explicitly state that energy attacks do no damage whatsoever (and even goes so far as noting that, while the Invulnerable character takes full damage from magic, he’s still immune to damage from energy based magical attacks).

Also, Invulnerable characters are vulnerable to psionics, which would leave them vulnerable to any number of attacks by CS psychics, including direct damage attacks such as psi-sword.

And while the character might have supernatural PS, it could still be effectively grappled by robots and power armor.

If nothing else, a fuel-air bomb could suck the oxygen right out of the character's lungs, whether it burns him or not, and potentially kill him that way.

Remember that the example I’m using is one with three Major Powers, which would be Invulnerability, Sonic Flight, and Supernatural Strength. Such a character could take advantage of his flight to avoid being grappled as well as fly somewhere to get air if need be (though he can do without air for 12 minutes). And due to their speed they can almost instantly engage any psionic attackers they face and quickly tear them to shreds with their Supernatural Strength.

Anyway, for the fun of it, I’ve been statting up a Human Vagabond with the super-power rules from the Conversion Book (I.E. 3 Major Powers, 3 Minor Powers). It’s so far turning out to be an interesting exercise. This guy’s like the Paragon of Vagabonds!

[Nightmask]

Exactly. You could line up 10,000 Glitter Boys all in a circle and have them fire simultaneously at a character with the Invulnerable power and he wouldn't have a scratch on him. Here's the power description:

An impressive power that makes the character almost an indestructible juggernaut. Most physical attacks do no damage whatsoever! This means cold, fire, heat, electricity, lasers, other types of energy, bullets, punches, falls, and so on, do no damage! Supernatural punches, bites and kicks inflict half damage; Extraordinary and Superhuman PS attacks do no damage, although they sting a bit.

Gases, drugs, chemicals, poisons, toxins, disease, and radiation will affect the invulnerable person, but are reduced to half the usual potency (half damage, duration, and effect). Deadly poisons, radiation and diseases cannot kill this character, only make him sick. The character still needs to breathe and eat, so he can die from drowning, suffocation, or starvation, but he can hold his breath and survive without food four times longer than the average human (hold breath for about 12 minutes; go without food for 80 days).

The character is only truly vulnerable to psionics, spell magic, magic illusions, and magic weapons, all of which have full effect. However, energy type magic, like fireballs, does no damage. He is also vulnerable to traps, pits, falls, etc.

So yeah, not only do physical attacks deal less than full damage, they deal no damage whatsoever. With its current armament Free Quebec stands no chance whatsoever of killing someone who has the above quoted power.

Well he can still be smothered to death, a barrage that left him buried and unable to free himself can still kill him, so they could potentially pull something like that off.

[Shark_Force]

hmmmm... RCB1R makes no mention of immunity to conventional physical damage. so it looks like that was another pretty major nerf. didn't notice the "all other aspects are the same" bit at the end though, so taking a look at the rules in HU2...

well, looks like he still has to worry about being grappled. and then shackled. then probably either executed once they figure out how (starvation, thirst, suffocation are the three easiest without resorting to psionics), or simply locked in a deep dark hole with no way out (while still shackled).

or maybe sent over to the boys in the RCSG to figure out how to kill him as well.

but yeah, heavy weapons will smack this guy around all day. he may not be injured, but if he attacks any sizeable force, he's not going to have any actions available to go on the offensive.

also, i find it a bit silly to presume that just because the books don't list riot gear, that the CS and FQ don't have access to it. we're developing goop that you can fire at people today, as far as i know. you think the CS hasn't figured out how to make supergoop that they can fire at people? particularly given the number of monsters that have outright invulnerability to certain attacks, and the desire to not have to launch nuclear missiles at targets within the boundaries of their megacities?

[Killer Cyborg]

hmmmm... RCB1R makes no mention of immunity to conventional physical damage.

Correct.
The Conversion Book only mentions aspects of the powers that have actually changed.
The lack of mention of the immunity to conventional damage, especially combined with the repeat that the character is "only truly vulnerable to x," adds up to the power remaining unchanged in the Invulnerability aspect.

Similarly, the APS: Water power conversion notes in CB1 don't mention the character being impervious to conventional kinetic attacks.
Once again, this is because that aspect of the power is unchanged.
In order to read CB1 with the understanding that any aspect of a power that isn't mentioned in the book no longer exists, one would have to assume any number of absurdities, such as a person made entirely out of liquid being able to be shot and killed like a normal person.

[Prysus]

Exactly. You could line up 10,000 Glitter Boys all in a circle and have them fire simultaneously at a character with the Invulnerable power and he wouldn't have a scratch on him. Here's the power description:

An impressive power that makes the character almost an indestructible juggernaut. Most physical attacks do no damage whatsoever! This means cold, fire, heat, electricity, lasers, other types of energy, bullets, punches, falls, and so on, do no damage! Supernatural punches, bites and kicks inflict half damage; Extraordinary and Superhuman PS attacks do no damage, although they sting a bit.

Gases, drugs, chemicals, poisons, toxins, disease, and radiation will affect the invulnerable person, but are reduced to half the usual potency (half damage, duration, and effect). Deadly poisons, radiation and diseases cannot kill this character, only make him sick. The character still needs to breathe and eat, so he can die from drowning, suffocation, or starvation, but he can hold his breath and survive without food four times longer than the average human (hold breath for about 12 minutes; go without food for 80 days).

The character is only truly vulnerable to psionics, spell magic, magic illusions, and magic weapons, all of which have full effect. However, energy type magic, like fireballs, does no damage. He is also vulnerable to traps, pits, falls, etc.

So yeah, not only do physical attacks deal less than full damage, they deal no damage whatsoever. With its current armament Free Quebec stands no chance whatsoever of killing someone who has the above quoted power.

Greetings and Salutations. This above statement is both true and untrue. All those Glitteboy's firing simultaneously would NOT damage the Invulnerable character, but he won't be walking away from it either. Look at the Knockdown rules. Now Heroes Unlimited probably won't have them, but look at either Conversion Book One (I believe both versions) or even Vampire Kingdoms (I believe both versions). Even Vampires (Invulnerable as well) can be knocked down. Doing more than 200 points of damage GUARANTEES (100% chance of) this character being knocked out and incapacitated. Lower damage has varying chances to knock the character down. 1 Glitter Boy stands a chance of flooring this character briefly. 2 Glitter Boys firing simultaneously stand a good chance of knocking the character down for the long count (15 seconds). 3 Glitter Boys have a very solid chance. 7 Glitter Boys firing simultaneously is guaranteed (even with minimum damage rolls).

Also keep in mind while poisons/toxins/gases may have a reduced effect, they still effect the character. Enough knock-out gas will have this character sleeping like a baby. Even if that duration is halved, he's still incapacitated while other plans can be executed.

Once incapacitated, this character becomes fairly easy to keep incapacitated (not like he'll be dodging while he's floored) with a barrage while you put other potential plans in motion.

Actually, Invulnerable characters are (despite being impervious to energy attacks) somewhat vulnerable to particle beams (1/2 damage, iirc, as per Aliens Unlimited).

I’ll have to look that up. I’m going by the description in Heroes Unlimited and Skraypers, which explicitly state that energy attacks do no damage whatsoever (and even goes so far as noting that, while the Invulnerable character takes full damage from magic, he’s still immune to damage from energy based magical attacks).

I can neither confirm nor deny this comment about particle beams at this time.

Also, Invulnerable characters are vulnerable to psionics, which would leave them vulnerable to any number of attacks by CS psychics, including direct damage attacks such as psi-sword.

And while the character might have supernatural PS, it could still be effectively grappled by robots and power armor.

If nothing else, a fuel-air bomb could suck the oxygen right out of the character's lungs, whether it burns him or not, and potentially kill him that way.

Remember that the example I’m using is one with three Major Powers, which would be Invulnerability, Sonic Flight, and Supernatural Strength. Such a character could take advantage of his flight to avoid being grappled as well as fly somewhere to get air if need be (though he can do without air for 12 minutes). And due to their speed they can almost instantly engage any psionic attackers they face and quickly tear them to shreds with their Supernatural Strength.

Anyway, for the fun of it, I’ve been statting up a Human Vagabond with the super-power rules from the Conversion Book (I.E. 3 Major Powers, 3 Minor Powers). It’s so far turning out to be an interesting exercise. This guy’s like the Paragon of Vagabonds!

While that's a nice combo, and would probably rip apart small squads easily, larger locations such as a mega-city or even FQ are far, far, far harder. You're looking at the powers without looking at potential strategies of the enemies. Attack a robot, and it can grapple. Come at it with Sonic Flight and you'll probably get a few good hits, but (especially since attacking these large cities they'll have more than one robot), they're going to see this attack. Eventually one is going to be smart enough to just simultaneous attack, and body flip and/or body tackle you to the ground (or some other tactic). Sure, with Supernatural Strength you can overpower them, but that's not necessarily instant.

Also keep in mind that anyone trained in holds can keep this character locked in, and strength is removed from the equation (read up on the rules for Holds if you don't know them). Thinking that a city of trained and heavily equipped military can't hurt you is usually the first step in getting killed.

A character doesn't need to be pinned or incapacitated long for a lot to happen. This is when the psychics (who don't look any different than every other soldier on the field, except the Dog Boys who can be easily picked out) can step in. Bio-Manipulation, Hypnotic Suggestion, Mind Wipe ... you don't need to kill someone to eliminate them as an enemy. I'm not even sure how Super Telekinesis vs. this character would play out, nor do I feel like giving it enough thought.

While the character is incapacitated and unable to fight back is when you execute methods of drowning or suffocation. A character might be able to hold his breath for 12 minutes, but someone who is knocked out isn't going to be holding his breath.

This character is tough, but far from unbeatable. Never forget that a character's greatest strength is not the powers with which he's built, but by the intelligence in which he's played. Anyways, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Cyber-Knight]

That's not a nerf. The Conversion Books are written with the idea that you have the other books. They don't list all the effects which those powers are capable of. They only list the things which are changed.

How much of a threat would grappling and shackling be though? He has Supernatural Strength and Sonic Flight. He can avoid being grappled by anything except flyers, and even if he is grappled, his Supernatural Strength is far in excess of the Robotic Strength possessed by power armored troops.

As for that goop, again we're talking about someone with Supernatural Strength. Whatever that goop is, it can't be anything other than an SDC structure as it's meant for riot control, so it's something which he would be able to shatter at will. But ANYWAY...

No more dilly dallying, for I now present you all with...

SUPER-TRAMP, AKA Super-Vagabond, "the Paragons of Vagabon's"!

Born Wilford Jenkins, Super-Tramp started out life much as any other Vagabond, scrounging the burbs for pieces of lint to add to his collection, wrestling oversized rats for small pieces of cheese to keep himself alive, or building stills to feed his raging alcoholism with a neverending supply of Moonshine, but all of that changed on one fateful day. Perhaps he is a rare one-in-a-billion mutant representing an evolutionary leap forward for mankind, the victim of strange cosmic and exotic energies emanating from the rifts, or maybe even the beneficiary of the power of the belief of millions of Vagabonds who die every day unsung and unremembered on their first adventure alongside their Glittery Boy, Juicer, and Cyber-Knight companions, their accumulated hopes and dreams given form in one being, the Paragon of Vagabonds! Where he came from is unimportant, all that matters is that he, Super-Tramp, walks amongst us! And he will forever wage a never-ending war against literacy, dental care products, and good fashion sense!

Dun dun dun, DUN DUN!!! *fwoosh*

IQ: 11, ME: 13, MA: 13, PS: 72 (Supernatural), PP: 21, PE: 24, PB: 11, Spd: 30
MDC: 347

Super Powers: Extraordinary Physical Prowess, Immune to Psionics, Increased Durability, Invulnerability, Sonic Flight, Supernatural Strength

Special Abilities: Regenerate 1d6x10 MDC per minute

Bonuses: 7 Attacks, +2 Initiative, +3 (+4 in flight) Strike, +5 (+7 in flight) Parry, +5 (+11 in flight) Dodge, +6 Automatic Dodge, +2 Pull Punch, +3 Roll w/Impact, +4 Perception

Saving Throws: +48% Save Vs. Coma/Death, +5 Save Vs. Magic, +5 Save Vs. Poison, +1 Save Vs. Possession, +2 Save Vs. Psionic Attacks, +3 Save Vs. Horror Factor

O.C.C. SKILLS: Language: American (88%), Language: Spanish (65%), Language: Creole (65%), Barter (56%), Begging (40%), Cook (50%), Domestic: Brewing (40%), Domestic: Fishing (40%), I.D. Undercover Agent (50%), Pilot: Motorcycle (72%), General Repair (45%), Radio: Basic (50%), Streetwise (30%), W.P.: Sword, W.P.: Energy Rifle, Hand to Hand: Expert

O.C.C. RELATED SKILLS: Boxing, Prowl (29%)

SECONDARY SKILLS: W.P.: Energy Pistol, Running, Gambling (40%), Gambling: Dirty Tricks (30%), Mathematics: Basic (45%), Research (50%)

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, Invulnerable characters are (despite being impervious to energy attacks) somewhat vulnerable to particle beams (1/2 damage, iirc, as per Aliens Unlimited).

I’ll have to look that up. I’m going by the description in Heroes Unlimited and Skraypers, which explicitly state that energy attacks do no damage whatsoever (and even goes so far as noting that, while the Invulnerable character takes full damage from magic, he’s still immune to damage from energy based magical attacks).

ALL versions of the power specifically state that the power makes the character impervious to energy attacks.
Yet particle beams still inflict 1/2 damage, according to AU and/or other later books.
The explanation that the author once gave here in the forums is that particle beams are essentially disintegration attacks, different from normal energy attacks.

Also, Invulnerable characters are vulnerable to psionics, which would leave them vulnerable to any number of attacks by CS psychics, including direct damage attacks such as psi-sword.

And while the character might have supernatural PS, it could still be effectively grappled by robots and power armor.

If nothing else, a fuel-air bomb could suck the oxygen right out of the character's lungs, whether it burns him or not, and potentially kill him that way.

Remember that the example I’m using is one with three Major Powers, which would be Invulnerability, Sonic Flight, and Supernatural Strength. Such a character could take advantage of his flight to avoid being grappled as well as fly somewhere to get air if need be (though he can do without air for 12 minutes). And due to their speed they can almost instantly engage any psionic attackers they face and quickly tear them to shreds with their Supernatural Strength.

The character could certainly try to avoid being grappled, but it's not always that easy. Getting hit by powerful kinetic attacks such as missiles would still be able to knock the character down, which would leave them vulnerable to being tackled.
Also, if the character is trying to rely on his supernatural strength to tear enemies to shreds, that puts hims firmly in grappling range.

And unless the super-powered character has high enough Supernatural PS to get through 80 MDC in a single attack, and he's lucky enough to get initiative, etc. etc. etc., taking down a psychic (or a team of psychics) would be a lot trickier than you're envisioning.

[Cyber-Knight]

Which is why I gave him Immune to Psionics as a Minor Power. And with a Supernatural PS of 72, he's strong enough to one-shot someone in 80 MDC armor with a Power Punch (2d6x10+40 MD in one hit).

[flatline]

The explanation that the author once gave here in the forums is that particle beams are essentially disintegration attacks, different from normal energy attacks.

What the heck is a disintegration attack?

How does it differ from "normal" energy attacks?

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

The explanation that the author once gave here in the forums is that particle beams are essentially disintegration attacks, different from normal energy attacks.

What the heck is a disintegration attack?

How does it differ from "normal" energy attacks?

--flatline

well the typical Sci-fi definition is an attack that assaults the bonds that hold molecules together. Weather that is what the author meant or not is unknown.

[Johnathan]

That's not a nerf. The Conversion Books are written with the idea that you have the other books. They don't list all the effects which those powers are capable of. They only list the things which are changed.

How much of a threat would grappling and shackling be though? He has Supernatural Strength and Sonic Flight. He can avoid being grappled by anything except flyers, and even if he is grappled, his Supernatural Strength is far in excess of the Robotic Strength possessed by power armored troops.

As for that goop, again we're talking about someone with Supernatural Strength. Whatever that goop is, it can't be anything other than an SDC structure as it's meant for riot control, so it's something which he would be able to shatter at will. But ANYWAY...

No more dilly dallying, for I now present you all with...

SUPER-TRAMP, AKA Super-Vagabond, "the Paragons of Vagabon's"!

Born Wilford Jenkins, Super-Tramp started out life much as any other Vagabond, scrounging the burbs for pieces of lint to add to his collection, wrestling oversized rats for small pieces of cheese to keep himself alive, or building stills to feed his raging alcoholism with a neverending supply of Moonshine, but all of that changed on one fateful day. Perhaps he is a rare one-in-a-billion mutant representing an evolutionary leap forward for mankind, the victim of strange cosmic and exotic energies emanating from the rifts, or maybe even the beneficiary of the power of the belief of millions of Vagabonds who die every day unsung and unremembered on their first adventure alongside their Glittery Boy, Juicer, and Cyber-Knight companions, their accumulated hopes and dreams given form in one being, the Paragon of Vagabonds! Where he came from is unimportant, all that matters is that he, Super-Tramp, walks amongst us! And he will forever wage a never-ending war against literacy, dental care products, and good fashion sense!

Dun dun dun, DUN DUN!!! *fwoosh*

IQ: 11, ME: 13, MA: 13, PS: 72 (Supernatural), PP: 21, PE: 24, PB: 11, Spd: 30
MDC: 347

Super Powers: Extraordinary Physical Prowess, Immune to Psionics, Increased Durability, Invulnerability, Sonic Flight, Supernatural Strength

Special Abilities: Regenerate 1d6x10 MDC per minute

Bonuses: 7 Attacks, +2 Initiative, +3 (+4 in flight) Strike, +5 (+7 in flight) Parry, +5 (+11 in flight) Dodge, +6 Automatic Dodge, +2 Pull Punch, +3 Roll w/Impact, +4 Perception

Saving Throws: +48% Save Vs. Coma/Death, +5 Save Vs. Magic, +5 Save Vs. Poison, +1 Save Vs. Possession, +2 Save Vs. Psionic Attacks, +3 Save Vs. Horror Factor

O.C.C. SKILLS: Language: American (88%), Language: Spanish (65%), Language: Creole (65%), Barter (56%), Begging (40%), Cook (50%), Domestic: Brewing (40%), Domestic: Fishing (40%), I.D. Undercover Agent (50%), Pilot: Motorcycle (72%), General Repair (45%), Radio: Basic (50%), Streetwise (30%), W.P.: Sword, W.P.: Energy Rifle, Hand to Hand: Expert

O.C.C. RELATED SKILLS: Boxing, Prowl (29%)

SECONDARY SKILLS: W.P.: Energy Pistol, Running, Gambling (40%), Gambling: Dirty Tricks (30%), Mathematics: Basic (45%), Research (50%)

So... Is it bad that I read this and thought, "That's it...? Really...?"

Each character I've had in every campaign for the past 5 years can compete/disable/defeat this Vagabond Paragon... Admittedly... I think only ONE of those could actually outright KILL him though...

[Shark_Force]

Which is why I gave him Immune to Psionics as a Minor Power. And with a Supernatural PS of 72, he's strong enough to one-shot someone in 80 MDC armor with a Power Punch (2d6x10+40 MD in one hit).

a power punch is two actions. on the first action, the other guy entangles. on the second action, he's entangled and cannot punch with that hand until he breaks free. good luck with that, since there are probably half a dozen guys making sure it doesn't happen. no psionics required. they eventually get him subdued and sedated, and then dispose of him in whatever way they feel is appropriate.

and also, the goop can be as much MDC as they want. it's not dealing damage, and who cares if it's really hard to get rid of it without the solvent? that's the bloody point. it can have 1 million MDC and still not inflict a single point of damage to a rioting civilian (or a rampaging super-vagabond, or a demon from the rifts that is immune to everything except the wood of a 200 year old truffula tree that was grown in another dimension and rifted to earth, and then struck down by lightning and sharpened in the fires of a volcanic eruption). once you're tangled up enough, you're not going to be able to bring your full strength to bear anyways. we're talking about a people who's ancestors survived through a world-shattering event and hundreds of years of dark ages while demonic predators stalked them. i'm sure by now they've figured out a way to deal with super-strong, super-tough enemies that they can't directly harm.

[Cyber-Knight]

I'm pretty sure a Power Attack consumes two actions. That doesn't mean it takes two melee actions to perform.

[Damian Magecraft]

I'm pretty sure a Power Attack consumes two actions. That doesn't mean it takes two melee actions to perform.

Agreed

Then a level 7 spell only consumes two actions not take two melee actions to preform.
its called parity folks...
If the melee artist can interrupt the mage in mid spell then the Melee artist should be able to be interrupted in mid action as well.

[Cyber-Knight]

He's throwing a punch, not casting a spell.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm pretty sure a Power Attack consumes two actions. That doesn't mean it takes two melee actions to perform.

Agreed

In Palladium, it does.
I'm pretty sure that it's even spelled out somewhere in canon, that the first action of a power punch is the "winding up" portion of the attack.
Check the FAQ, and search through old threads; it's been discussed.

[Killer Cyborg]

The explanation that the author once gave here in the forums is that particle beams are essentially disintegration attacks, different from normal energy attacks.

What the heck is a disintegration attack?

An attack that disintegrates.

How does it differ from "normal" energy attacks?
--flatline

Didn't you already have a thread about particle beams affecting Invulnerable characters?

[Cyber-Knight]

Kind of defeats the point of it, as you get the same exact damage with two separate hits without wasting an action, but oh well.

[Killer Cyborg]

Which is why I gave him Immune to Psionics as a Minor Power.

I'm not familiar with the power.
Does it make you impervious to psi-swords and TK?

And with a Supernatural PS of 72, he's strong enough to one-shot someone in 80 MDC armor with a Power Punch (2d6x10+40 MD in one hit).

Average damage of 110. That'll get through 80 MDC armor, but not 80 MDC armor and an 80 MDC Psi-Shield, or 80 MDC armor and 4th level Psychic Body Field, or 80 MDC armor and a 2nd level or better TK Force Field.
For that matter, a 5th level TK force field would have 125 MDC by itself, more than the average punch damage for that attack.

The two-attack requirement is another issue, being addressed in other posts, of course.

Either way, CS psychics rarely travel alone.

[Killer Cyborg]

Kind of defeats the point of it, as you get the same exact damage with two separate hits without wasting an action, but oh well.

I agree, for the most part.
There is still some limited tactical advantage in some situations, though. Presumably you could spend one attack readying a power punch, then use the power punch as a simo-attack when the enemy tried to attack you. That'd be pretty effective against Juicers, especially for somebody with supernatural PS 70.
Also, in an ambush situation, where the enemy isn't aware of your presence, you could use 1 attack to start your power punch without tipping them to your presence, then your first surprise attack would pretty damaging.

[The Beast]

So I've been looking at Invulnerability, and wow, it's ridiculously powerful. 700 MDC, Regenerate 1d6x10 MDC per Minute, and most importantly, you're totally immune to damage from just about anything except magic, psionics (unless it's an energy attack, in which case you're still immune), and supernatural attacks, and even then they still only do half damage. Is it just me, or is it damn near impossible to kill someone with Invulnerability? Stack Sonic Flight and Supernatural Strength on such a character (like the super-powered options for Scholars & Adventurers available in Conversion Book 1), and you have a damn near unstoppable juggernaut who can bring down immensely powerful opponents in a short amount of time while taking little to no damage in return.

Anyway, now that I've got that preamble out of the way, I have two questions.

1) Has anyone here ever had to deal with super-powered Vagabonds or Rogue Scholars zipping around with Sonic Flight and smashing everything in sight with Supernatural Strength all while being nearly impossible to kill thanks to Invulnerability? If so, how did it work out for you? How did you or your GM deal with that? 

2) Are there worthwhile defensive powers which aren't as outlandish as Invulnerability but aren't gimped by comparison? For instance, I've been looking at Matter Expulsion: Metal, Bio-Armor, and Ecto-Armor, and none of them provide anywhere near as much protection. Even disregarding the immunity to damage effect, none of them provide an MDC/SDC bonus anywhere near that provided by Invulnerability. So does anyone know of any power which provides something close to the 700 MDC which Invulnerability provides but without the additional immunity to nearly all damage effects?

I'd appreciate any insight you all have to offer into this. Thanks.

Have a mage summon a possession entity to possess the one with Invulnerability, then have it go against the PCs.

[Cyber-Knight]

Dear "The Beast",

Why do you hate players so much?

[Shark_Force]

if it takes two actions to do, how would it complete on the first action? that is complete and utter nonsense. if it takes 5 minutes to perform a skill check, is it because you performed the skill check instantly and now need to take a 5 minute break at some point? if you take an aimed shot, do you shoot first and then take aim? if you need to spend the full round on movement, do you get to your destination instantly and then have to spend the rest of the round waiting? how else could it possibly work? it takes two attacks but you can give up the other attack whenever you feel like it? it takes up two actions, one of which is at the end of the round even though the notion of you performing the manoeuvre on your first action and then spending the time to prepare for it in your last action is completely laughable? two actions where you first punch, then you wind up to make the punch hit harder? the only way it makes sense is for the two actions spent to be your next two actions, and for the thing you are doing, whatever it is, to finish on the second action. it is complete and utter nonsense to propose that you can perform any action which requires a certain amount of time by doing the action instantly, and then spending the time to do it after the action has been completed.

of course, that is also beside the point, because the other guy can probably do a defensive entangle if he has halfway-decent HtoH training, that being the default way to use entangle. and even if you do smash his armor, that leaves the other bajillion people that the CS has to use their actions on you, in groups of probably 6+ at a time. against 1, you'll probably win. 6+, i'd say the odds favor them.

and then once you're entangled, it's right back to you being screwed totally and utterly. heck, you'll probably get knocked down so many times before you can even get into melee range that you won't have any attacks to power punch with anyways. they'll have to offensively entangle you, because you won't have any actions to attack with and allow them to defensively entangle.

sometimes you just have to accept that quantity is it's own kind of quality.

[flatline]

The explanation that the author once gave here in the forums is that particle beams are essentially disintegration attacks, different from normal energy attacks.

What the heck is a disintegration attack?

An attack that disintegrates.

How does it differ from "normal" energy attacks?
--flatline

Didn't you already have a thread about particle beams affecting Invulnerable characters?

My thread was about particle beams doing damage to someone protected by Impervious to Energy. I don't recall that Invulnerability was discussed except in passing.

--flatline

[flatline]

sometimes you just have to accept that quantity is it's own kind of quality.

This is the reason I prefer to be untouchable rather than invulnerable.

Numerical advantage counts for nothing if the numbers aren't where they need to be.

--flatline

[The Beast]

Dear "The Beast",

Why do you hate players so much?

Well it'll do two things for you:

1 = It'll make your players come up with ways to neutralize him without killing him that you can use against him at a later date. Or they'll end up killing him to save themselves if they never figure out that he's possessed.

2 = If they ever get someone else wanting that power, they'll all give him an angry/crazy look and explain what happened the last time...

[Cyber-Knight]

if it takes two actions to do, how would it complete on the first action? that is complete and utter nonsense.

It doesn't say it takes two actions to complete. "...on a power punch (counts as two melee attacks)". The reasonable reading of that is that someone with 7 Attacks per round would do something like this:

Melee Action 1: Power Punch (Consumes two attacks)
Melee Action 2: Power Punch (Consumes two attacks)
Melee Action 3: Power Punch (Consumes two attacks)
Melee Action 4: Regular Punch (Consumes one attack)

Done. I have never seen a book, though, where it stated that a power punch required one melee action of "winding up" before being able to deliver the punch on the second melee action. Of course, I've been wrong before, so if someone can quote me a rule from a book stating as much I look forward to reading that passage.

[flatline]

if it takes two actions to do, how would it complete on the first action? that is complete and utter nonsense.

It doesn't say it takes two actions to complete. "...on a power punch (counts as two melee attacks)". The reasonable reading of that is that someone with 7 Attacks per round would do something like this:

Melee Action 1: Power Punch (Consumes two attacks)
Melee Action 2: Power Punch (Consumes two attacks)
Melee Action 3: Power Punch (Consumes two attacks)
Melee Action 4: Regular Punch (Consumes one attack)

Done. I have never seen a book, though, where it stated that a power punch required one melee action of "winding up" before being able to deliver the punch on the second melee action. Of course, I've been wrong before, so if someone can quote me a rule from a book stating as much I look forward to reading that passage.

And then you just stand there for the second half of the melee doing nothing?

What sense does that make?

--flatline

[Cyber-Knight]

It makes more sense than the alternative, where you spend an entire melee action "winding up", all so you can deliver one super punch which is equal to two punches. In that case, why not just make two separate attacks? What's the advantage of spending an action doing nothing, risking doing no damage at all on the second hit if you miss, when you could do half damage the first melee action and then inflict the other half of the damage the second melee action? If you did extra damage above and beyond twice then it might be worthwhile that way, but otherwise what's the point?

Besides, if you're going to apply that standard then Palladium's combat system makes no sense at all when you have two opponents with different numbers of attacks. Say you have a CS Grunt with 4 attacks and a Juicer with 9 attacks. This is how it goes.

ROUND 1
Juicer Melee Action 1
Coalition Grunt Melee Action 1
Juicer Melee Action 2
Coalition Grunt Melee Action 2
Juicer Melee Action 3
Coalition Grunt Melee Action 3
Juicer Melee Action 4
Coalition Grunt Melee Action 4
Juicer Melee Action 5
Juicer Melee Action 6
Juicer Melee Action 7
Juicer Melee Action 8
Juicer Melee Action 9

So the Coalition Grunt just stands there doing nothing while the Juicer just wails on him for a good eight seconds every round? And yet that's how it works.

[Cyber-Knight]

And wow, amazing how my half *****/unstoppable-super-hobo-thread turned into a serious rules discussion.

[Shark_Force]

if it takes two actions to do, how would it complete on the first action? that is complete and utter nonsense.

It doesn't say it takes two actions to complete. "...on a power punch (counts as two melee attacks)". The reasonable reading of that is that someone with 7 Attacks per round would do something like this:

Melee Action 1: Power Punch (Consumes two attacks)
Melee Action 2: Power Punch (Consumes two attacks)
Melee Action 3: Power Punch (Consumes two attacks)
Melee Action 4: Regular Punch (Consumes one attack)

Done. I have never seen a book, though, where it stated that a power punch required one melee action of "winding up" before being able to deliver the punch on the second melee action. Of course, I've been wrong before, so if someone can quote me a rule from a book stating as much I look forward to reading that passage.

so what you're saying is that it totally makes sense for it to take twice as long, with the second half of that time being used up... ummmm.... after the 4 punches... somehow... by standing there and waiting.

yeah. that totally makes sense... wait, no, my mistake... that makes the exact opposite of sense. sorry about the confusion there. sometimes when confronted with absolutely mind-boggling logic, my brain needs to reboot itself.

as to why? well, one point has already been made; it's great for sneak attacks.

why else? well, suppose you're fighting someone by running past. you run past, spend an action wind up while you turn around and move back to your opponent, and hit them again.... and now they have to spend their turn either winding up, or they're going to be standing there doing nothing. or if you have something that somehow benefits a single attack, or if your opponent has something that damages you each time you punch them because they're on fire. or because more damage in a single attack has a better chance of knockdown. or because your opponent is casting armor of ithan every action while waiting for his allies to get there, and if you damage it by half and your buddy damages it by half, he just recasts it but if you smash through it with a double-strength attack and then your buddy does that same double-strength attack one right after the other, you might actually get through it and damage your opponent instead of endlessly hoping that maybe he'll run out of PPE. any time you would otherwise be doing nothing, but expect to be able hit your opponent next round, you should probably be winding up for a power punch.

but seriously, the argument that it takes two actions, but that you do it in the amount of time of one action? really? then why does it take two actions to perform? do you also let people perform 5 minute skill checks as a single action, complete that instantly, and then lose all their actions for the next 5 minutes? because that makes about as much sense.

if i say "ok, i'm going to use demolitions to assemble the bomb components with a carefully shaped charge and slap it on the back of that monster where it can't reach to scrape it off" would you then say "ok, <roll d100> you successfully blow it up, now you have to spend the next 3 melees doing nothing while you wait to finish assembling the bomb and putting it on the monster's back"?

because that's what it sure sounds like.

why would you need to explicitly tell someone that doing something which takes two actions takes two actions? how many actions do you think two actions should take? because the only way that makes sense to me, is that if it takes two actions to perform, then the amount of time it takes to perform is two actions.

we deal with the weird result of uneven attacks per melee where the guy with more gets them all tacked onto the end because most people don't really want to come up with action phases to make it work like it probably should (though i've certainly seen people make an effort to do that). that doesn't make it a goal to strive for.

[Killer Cyborg]

My thread was about particle beams doing damage to someone protected by Impervious to Energy. I don't recall that Invulnerability was discussed except in passing.
--flatline

Ah, that's right.
The basis was essentially the same; molecular sand-blasting counts as different from normal "energy" in some ways.

[Killer Cyborg]

It makes more sense than the alternative, where you spend an entire melee action "winding up", all so you can deliver one super punch which is equal to two punches. In that case, why not just make two separate attacks? What's the advantage of spending an action doing nothing, risking doing no damage at all on the second hit if you miss, when you could do half damage the first melee action and then inflict the other half of the damage the second melee action? If you did extra damage above and beyond twice then it might be worthwhile that way, but otherwise what's the point?

Same as in real life; you make a power attack when an opponent is momentarily stunned, distracted, or otherwise unlikely to be able to defend against it.
You know all those fancy jump-kicks you see in martial arts flicks?
They're slow, real slow in comparison to a normal punch or kick, even if they do twice as much damage to your opponent.
But you still learn them, because there are times when it comes in handy, when your opponent leaves you an opening that you can exploit with a slower attack that's more powerful than normal.
I've already given a couple examples of how it works in Rifts.

[flatline]

It makes more sense than the alternative, where you spend an entire melee action "winding up", all so you can deliver one super punch which is equal to two punches. In that case, why not just make two separate attacks? What's the advantage of spending an action doing nothing, risking doing no damage at all on the second hit if you miss, when you could do half damage the first melee action and then inflict the other half of the damage the second melee action? If you did extra damage above and beyond twice then it might be worthwhile that way, but otherwise what's the point?

Same as in real life; you make a power attack when an opponent is momentarily stunned, distracted, or otherwise unlikely to be able to defend against it.
You know all those fancy jump-kicks you see in martial arts flicks?
They're slow, real slow in comparison to a normal punch or kick, even if they do twice as much damage to your opponent.
But you still learn them, because there are times when it comes in handy, when your opponent leaves you an opening that you can exploit with a slower attack that's more powerful than normal.
I've already given a couple examples of how it works in Rifts.

Please don't confuse what you see in a movie or read in about in a game with how things really work.

For instance, in real life, "winding up" doesn't add any power to your punch and may, in fact, weaken it. A reverse punch is often more powerful than a fore fist, but that's more a function of the distance between you and your target and the amount of follow through you have before you over extend yourself. If you are already at an appropriate distance to throw a reverse punch, then if you wind up, you gain nothing except that you give your opponent an opportunity to stop-hit or grapple you.

Conclusion: "winding up" for a punch is never a good idea and is often a very bad idea if only because it telegraphs your intent to your opponent.

Why do we see it so often? On the screen and in comic books, they use it to convey to the audience the imminent threat. In real life, if your intention is to hit your opponent, giving him advance warning works against that goal.

Why do we see it in real life? Most people don't know any better. Untrained intuition (perhaps shaped by what we see on TV) seems to be that winding up gives more power even though that is demonstrably not the case.

Does it make sense in-game? Not really. Even if winding up added more power, it only takes 0.25-.5 seconds to wind up which hardly accounts for it taking a full action (2-3 seconds). Clearly it is intended to be a game balance issue.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

It makes more sense than the alternative, where you spend an entire melee action "winding up", all so you can deliver one super punch which is equal to two punches. In that case, why not just make two separate attacks? What's the advantage of spending an action doing nothing, risking doing no damage at all on the second hit if you miss, when you could do half damage the first melee action and then inflict the other half of the damage the second melee action? If you did extra damage above and beyond twice then it might be worthwhile that way, but otherwise what's the point?

Same as in real life; you make a power attack when an opponent is momentarily stunned, distracted, or otherwise unlikely to be able to defend against it.
You know all those fancy jump-kicks you see in martial arts flicks?
They're slow, real slow in comparison to a normal punch or kick, even if they do twice as much damage to your opponent.
But you still learn them, because there are times when it comes in handy, when your opponent leaves you an opening that you can exploit with a slower attack that's more powerful than normal.
I've already given a couple examples of how it works in Rifts.

Please don't confuse what you see in a movie or read in about in a game with how things really work.

I'm not. I'm basing this on my experience as a martial artist.

For instance, in real life, "winding up" doesn't add any power to your punch and may, in fact, weaken it.

Agreed; I never said that the "winding up" idea was a good simulation.
But think "haymaker," not "reverse punch."

[flatline]

It makes more sense than the alternative, where you spend an entire melee action "winding up", all so you can deliver one super punch which is equal to two punches. In that case, why not just make two separate attacks? What's the advantage of spending an action doing nothing, risking doing no damage at all on the second hit if you miss, when you could do half damage the first melee action and then inflict the other half of the damage the second melee action? If you did extra damage above and beyond twice then it might be worthwhile that way, but otherwise what's the point?

Same as in real life; you make a power attack when an opponent is momentarily stunned, distracted, or otherwise unlikely to be able to defend against it.
You know all those fancy jump-kicks you see in martial arts flicks?
They're slow, real slow in comparison to a normal punch or kick, even if they do twice as much damage to your opponent.
But you still learn them, because there are times when it comes in handy, when your opponent leaves you an opening that you can exploit with a slower attack that's more powerful than normal.
I've already given a couple examples of how it works in Rifts.

Please don't confuse what you see in a movie or read in about in a game with how things really work.

I'm not. I'm basing this on my experience as a martial artist.

And what martial art teaches that jump kicks are good for anything besides demonstration?

For instance, in real life, "winding up" doesn't add any power to your punch and may, in fact, weaken it.

Agreed; I never said that the "winding up" idea was a good simulation.
But think "haymaker," not "reverse punch."

haymaker = desperation

Anyone trained can generate similar power in less time without incurring all the vulnerability implied by a haymaker which means that you should only throw a haymaker if things are already going badly for you and you have no better options. Usually this happens when you can't derive power from your lower body because you're off balance or don't have solid footing.

If you're a fan of mixed martial arts, pay attention to who throws haymakers. It's almost never the guy who is closing in and is almost always the guy trying to prevent a grapple, ward off an attack, or recover his balance.

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

It makes more sense than the alternative, where you spend an entire melee action "winding up", all so you can deliver one super punch which is equal to two punches. In that case, why not just make two separate attacks? What's the advantage of spending an action doing nothing, risking doing no damage at all on the second hit if you miss, when you could do half damage the first melee action and then inflict the other half of the damage the second melee action? If you did extra damage above and beyond twice then it might be worthwhile that way, but otherwise what's the point?

Same as in real life; you make a power attack when an opponent is momentarily stunned, distracted, or otherwise unlikely to be able to defend against it.
You know all those fancy jump-kicks you see in martial arts flicks?
They're slow, real slow in comparison to a normal punch or kick, even if they do twice as much damage to your opponent.
But you still learn them, because there are times when it comes in handy, when your opponent leaves you an opening that you can exploit with a slower attack that's more powerful than normal.
I've already given a couple examples of how it works in Rifts.

Please don't confuse what you see in a movie or read in about in a game with how things really work.

I'm not. I'm basing this on my experience as a martial artist.

And what martial art teaches that jump kicks are good for anything besides demonstration?

For instance, in real life, "winding up" doesn't add any power to your punch and may, in fact, weaken it.

Agreed; I never said that the "winding up" idea was a good simulation.
But think "haymaker," not "reverse punch."

haymaker = desperation

Anyone trained can generate similar power in less time without incurring all the vulnerability implied by a haymaker which means that you should only throw a haymaker if things are already going badly for you and you have no better options. Usually this happens when you can't derive power from your lower body because you're off balance or don't have solid footing.

If you're a fan of mixed martial arts, pay attention to who throws haymakers. It's almost never the guy who is closing in and is almost always the guy trying to prevent a grapple, ward off an attack, or recover his balance.

--flatline

jump kicks are good for closing distances and surprising your opponent. This is taught in every martial art that teaches the jump kick.

[flatline]

jump kicks are good for closing distances and surprising your opponent. This is taught in every martial art that teaches the jump kick.

I hope that if I'm ever fighting for my life, that my opponent has received those instructions and attempts to follow them.

--flatline