Rules Question: Hound armour

[Hendrik]

Hi there,

another wee little question. Is Hound armour ineffective against Nightbane blows and melee weapon attacks?

It seems so.

A.R.: 13 against normal weapons (zero against magical and supernatural attacks).

As melee weapons in the hands of someone doing supernatural damage also do supernatural damage (and may break in the process, of course) that would also be valid for a Nightbane, Vampire, etc. not punching or kicking but also for melee weapon attacks.

Do you agree?

Cheers
Hendrik

[drewkitty ~..~]

As melee weapons in the hands of someone doing supernatural damage also do supernatural damage (and may break in the process, of course) that would also be valid for a Nightbane, Vampire, etc. not punching or kicking but also for melee weapon attacks.

Do you agree?

If the "melee weapon" is a part of the NB then they by pass the AR.

The damage done by a mundane weapon would ether be it's base damage or the SNPS damage. Both cut in 1/2 because it is a mundane weapon.

Hand to hand attacks from NB, NS, Guardians, Vamps, wamps, and others that are SN and with True SNPS. (i.e. those with SNPS equivalents like titan Juicers are not included.)

[Hendrik]

level 4 edit

I am afraid I do not understand your answer now. I must have missed your editing of your post, drewkitty. Would you please elaborate.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Had to edit out the knee jerk response after checking the NBMB.

[Hendrik]

Dear drewkitty,

as always your answer knows how to please and is very helpful.

Had to edit out the knee jerk response after checking the NBMB.

Thank you for your kindness to forego such response. I knew that my question must seem stupid as the text quoted by me is clear. I just was confounded by the relative worthlessness of the armour against nightbane (and other supernatural damage causing creatures).

If the "melee weapon" is a part of the NB then they by pass the AR. ... Hand to hand attacks from NB, NS, Guardians, Vamps, wamps, and others that are SN and with True SNPS. (i.e. those with SNPS equivalents like titan Juicers are not included.)

I agree and thank you for your answer.

The damage done by a mundane weapon would ether be it's base damage or the SNPS damage. Both cut in 1/2 because it is a mundane weapon.

Now that I do not understand. The rules state this

"Supernatural damage and hand weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, the supernatural being rolls both for its basic hand to hand damage and the weapon's damage. Example: A Nightbane with a P.S. 24 is wielding a sword (1D8 damage). His base hand to hand damage is 3D6+9, so when using a sword he will roll 3D6+9 plus the 1D8 sword damage and add the results together." [bolded by me for emphasis]
Following on the same page is an optional rule for breakage of weapons when using them with supernatural strength, which is think makes a lot of sense.

Where do you get the "cut in 1/2" and the "either its base damage or the SNPS damage" from? It seems in direct contradiction to the rules as quoted by me above. Can you provide a reference, please.

Kind regards
Hendrik

[drewkitty ~..~]

The damage done by a mundane weapon would ether be it's base damage or the SNPS damage. Both cut in 1/2 because it is a mundane weapon.

Now that I do not understand. The rules state this

"Supernatural damage and hand weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, the supernatural being rolls both for its basic hand to hand damage and the weapon's damage. Example: A Nightbane with a P.S. 24 is wielding a sword (1D8 damage). His base hand to hand damage is 3D6+9, so when using a sword he will roll 3D6+9 plus the 1D8 sword damage and add the results together." [bolded by me for emphasis]
Following on the same page is an optional rule for breakage of weapons when using them with supernatural strength, which is think makes a lot of sense.

Where do you get the "cut in 1/2" and the "either its base damage or the SNPS damage" from? It seems in direct contradiction to the rules as quoted by me above. Can you provide a reference, please.

Kind regards
Hendrik

Okay,,,the NB setting does not follow the ether or rule about weapons or PS damage.

The Mundane Weapon is not Magic nor Supernatural, thus does only 1/2 damage.
See the hounds' partial invulnerability section.

[Hendrik]

Okay,,,the NB setting does not follow the ether or rule about weapons or PS damage.

I have not followed it but that would be in Rifts, right? Anyway, in Rifts it has more to do how to, or not to, combine supernatural strength and MDC damage, which is not an issue in SDC systems.

The Mundane Weapon is not Magic nor Supernatural, thus does only 1/2 damage.
See the hounds' partial invulnerability section.

You are right, but no need to roll your eyes. I merely had overread that part of the Hound description. Thank you for pointing me to the section, it is appreciated.

So, the result is: a Hound has an AR of 0 (supernatural attack/damage) against a Nightbane attacking with a mundane weapon, but will only take half damage because the weapon is not magical.

Cheers
Hendrik

[MurderCityDisciple]

Okay,,,the NB setting does not follow the ether or rule about weapons or PS damage.

I have not followed it but that would be in Rifts, right? Anyway, in Rifts it has more to do how to, or not to, combine supernatural strength and MDC damage, which is not an issue in SDC systems.

The Mundane Weapon is not Magic nor Supernatural, thus does only 1/2 damage.
See the hounds' partial invulnerability section.

You are right, but no need to roll your eyes. I merely had overread that part of the Hound description. Thank you for pointing me to the section, it is appreciated.

So, the result is: a Hound has an AR of 0 (supernatural attack/damage) against a Nightbane attacking with a mundane weapon, but will only take half damage because the weapon is not magical.

Cheers
Hendrik

The way I do things is only the mundane weapon part of the equation gets halved. So let's say the Supernatural attack does 3d6+6 plus a weapon that does 1-8 only the 1-8 gets halved to 1-4. Usually the damage from the supernatural impact shatters the weapon. Which looks cool in combat.

For melee damage, getting a supernatural weapon should be a high priority for a Nightbane or supernatural strengthened character.

[Icefalcon]

Okay,,,the NB setting does not follow the ether or rule about weapons or PS damage.

I have not followed it but that would be in Rifts, right? Anyway, in Rifts it has more to do how to, or not to, combine supernatural strength and MDC damage, which is not an issue in SDC systems.

The Mundane Weapon is not Magic nor Supernatural, thus does only 1/2 damage.
See the hounds' partial invulnerability section.

You are right, but no need to roll your eyes. I merely had overread that part of the Hound description. Thank you for pointing me to the section, it is appreciated.

So, the result is: a Hound has an AR of 0 (supernatural attack/damage) against a Nightbane attacking with a mundane weapon, but will only take half damage because the weapon is not magical.

Cheers
Hendrik

The way I do things is only the mundane weapon part of the equation gets halved. So let's say the Supernatural attack does 3d6+6 plus a weapon that does 1-8 only the 1-8 gets halved to 1-4. Usually the damage from the supernatural impact shatters the weapon. Which looks cool in combat.

For melee damage, getting a supernatural weapon should be a high priority for a Nightbane or supernatural strengthened character.

I agree with this. Only the weapon damage should be halved against the Hound.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I didn't not realize till this topic. but NB attack damage to hounds go strait to HP.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hi there,

another wee little question. Is Hound armour ineffective against Nightbane blows and melee weapon attacks?

It seems so.

A.R.: 13 against normal weapons (zero against magical and supernatural attacks).

As melee weapons in the hands of someone doing supernatural damage also do supernatural damage (and may break in the process, of course) that would also be valid for a Nightbane, Vampire, etc. not punching or kicking but also for melee weapon attacks.

Do you agree?

Cheers
Hendrik

I think they would need to be enchanted, even if temporarily through the use of the spells in the nightbane book. I think that this is the reason for their pervaliance in the nightbane book opposed to others.

[Hendrik]

Hi there,

another wee little question. Is Hound armour ineffective against Nightbane blows and melee weapon attacks?

It seems so.

A.R.: 13 against normal weapons (zero against magical and supernatural attacks).

As melee weapons in the hands of someone doing supernatural damage also do supernatural damage (and may break in the process, of course) that would also be valid for a Nightbane, Vampire, etc. not punching or kicking but also for melee weapon attacks. Do you agree?

I think they would need to be enchanted, even if temporarily through the use of the spells in the nightbane book. I think that this is the reason for their pervaliance in the nightbane book opposed to others.

Hmm, I do not think so. "Enchanted" would mean magical. The rules - as quoted - speak about magical AND supernatural attacks. I think that an attack is just as supernatural if the supernaturally strong nightbane punches the hound or uses a tool. A melee weapon uses the physical strength of the wielder for effect. The more forceful the weapon user, the more effective the weapon. If the wielder has supernatural strength and causes supernatural damage, I cannot see why a "non supernatural" tool should quench the supernaturalness and effectiveness of the weapon.

[The Dark Elf]

Okay,,,the NB setting does not follow the ether or rule about weapons or PS damage.

I have not followed it but that would be in Rifts, right? Anyway, in Rifts it has more to do how to, or not to, combine supernatural strength and MDC damage, which is not an issue in SDC systems.

The Mundane Weapon is not Magic nor Supernatural, thus does only 1/2 damage.
See the hounds' partial invulnerability section.

You are right, but no need to roll your eyes. I merely had overread that part of the Hound description. Thank you for pointing me to the section, it is appreciated.

So, the result is: a Hound has an AR of 0 (supernatural attack/damage) against a Nightbane attacking with a mundane weapon, but will only take half damage because the weapon is not magical.

Cheers
Hendrik

The way I do things is only the mundane weapon part of the equation gets halved. So let's say the Supernatural attack does 3d6+6 plus a weapon that does 1-8 only the 1-8 gets halved to 1-4. Usually the damage from the supernatural impact shatters the weapon. Which looks cool in combat.

For melee damage, getting a supernatural weapon should be a high priority for a Nightbane or supernatural strengthened character.

I agree with this. Only the weapon damage should be halved against the Hound.

This.

[Hendrik]

I agree that if you have to half anything there, it should be the weapon and not the strength damage, but why half at all? I think that the weapon is merely the tool but it conveys nothing but supernatural damage as the strength behind it is supernatural. It is bad enough that they can break and I also do not see much sense in halving e.g. 1D8 ...

[Icefalcon]

I agree that if you have to half anything there, it should be the weapon and not the strength damage, but why half at all? I think that the weapon is merely the tool but it conveys nothing but supernatural damage as the strength behind it is supernatural. It is bad enough that they can break and I also do not see much sense in halving e.g. 1D8 ...

True. It is not much of a difference, especially taken in addition to the HTH/strength damage.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Okay,,,the NB setting does not follow the ether or rule about weapons or PS damage.

I have not followed it but that would be in Rifts, right? Anyway, in Rifts it has more to do how to, or not to, combine supernatural strength and MDC damage, which is not an issue in SDC systems.

The Mundane Weapon is not Magic nor Supernatural, thus does only 1/2 damage.
See the hounds' partial invulnerability section.

You are right, but no need to roll your eyes. I merely had over read that part of the Hound description. Thank you for pointing me to the section, it is appreciated.

So, the result is: a Hound has an AR of 0 (supernatural attack/damage) against a Nightbane attacking with a mundane weapon, but will only take half damage because the weapon is not magical.

Cheers
Hendrik

The way I do things is only the mundane weapon part of the equation gets halved. So let's say the Supernatural attack does 3d6+6 plus a weapon that does 1-8 only the 1-8 gets halved to 1-4. Usually the damage from the supernatural impact shatters the weapon. Which looks cool in combat.

For melee damage, getting a supernatural weapon should be a high priority for a Nightbane or supernatural strengthened character.

I agree with this. Only the weapon damage should be halved against the Hound.

This.

I have a question for you who think that if/when the weapons damage is combined with the SNPS damage, is it just the raw amount of strength that over come the partial invulnerability or is it the SN aura of the being with SNPS that causes the negating the partial invulnerability?

Cause from the way I'm looking at it, it is the aura of the being that does the negation, not the raw physical str. This is why I said that even if you combine the Weapon damage and the SNPS damage together that the whole damage is cut by half because of the aura does not effect the partial Invulnerability because it does not come in contact with the hound.

[Warwolf]

And once again you hit on an item that I plan on revisiting and clarifying, Hendrik. There is no indication that a physical strike from a "supernatural creature" qualifies as a "supernatural attack." From my interpretation of this it was intended to cover such things as Talents and Psionic attacks such as Psi-Sword, or strike from an enchanted weapon. NOT just a punch or kick from a Nightbane.

I haven't run this by Kevin yet, but Irvin certainly felt it was more balanced this way.

[Hendrik]

Thank you, it is a very interesting topic, Mark. I agree there is no indication that every supernatural creature causes supernatural damage, and that needs clarification, but everyone with supernatural strength would cause supernatural damage. Let us forget about the weapon issue for a second, which also requires clarification, the strength rules seem pretty clear on the former ...

Now to your interesting point, drewkitty. 

I guess my answer is obvious. I view supernatural strength as "merely" a special form of strength to accentuate one form of strength over another. In other words and quite plainly: it is extraordinary strength beyond what normal humans have. Supernatural strength is ueberhuman. Vampires have it, superhumans have it (although it goes by a different name in HU). A club in supernaturally strong hands remains a club but will cause ueber strength damage. The club may break, logically because it was not made to withstand the abuse, but it will otherwise perform its job amd serve to leverage the (greater) strength.

The fun part is it has not really ever been exactly defined (nor do I think that necessary, really). It boils down to being a parallel special strength category, very powerful but quite raw. But for the creatures most generally associated with it, there is IMO scant evidence that it has or conveys a special aura. Consequently, I still view a hit with a regular weapon as causing supernatural damage (which inded it does under the rules as quoted by me - the unsure part is what happens to the weapon damage). From a rules perspective an additional 1D8 or so hardly makes a difference.

As it is not that defined, though, I think there is sufficient freedom to interpret it alternatively to what my understanding is to be the opposite, ie to associate it to something more etheral, an aura. Also, I think it is a fun and fitting alternative. And, of course, that is just as well.

Regarding the aura theory some serious questions: when does it stop to work, do you rate an inch cap on the aura, how many inches then? Must there really be direct contact? Is it direct contact if the nightbane wears gloves? How thin, how thick? What about knuckledusters? What about boots? If naked touch is not required why not a knife? 

Cheers
Hendrik

[drewkitty ~..~]

To give an example of what I mean...with the SNPS stat

Race/class/power__________________does it's bare-handed attacks by pass hound AR
Dragons____________________________yes
Mega-Heros________________________debatable 90% yes/10% no
Normal hero w/SNPS________________debatable 20% yes/ 80% no
NightBane__________________________yes
Vamps_____________________________yes
Titan Juicer_________________________No!
Mega Juicer_________________________Yes
T-Man______________________________Yes

[Shark_Force]

supernatural PS is quite clearly far more than just being really, really strong. a human that can lift as much as a creature with supernatural PS is not able to do the same amount of damage as a creature with supernatural PS, for example. nor can they be expected to damage certain objects with their bare hands (for example, a bank vault door)... whereas iirc, supernatural PS is specifically capable of doing that sort of thing.

it's not just more strength. that could be reflected simply by giving them a larger bonus to strength. it's supernatural. it doesn't function like natural strength, because it isn't natural strength. it's natural strength, plus the supernatural ability to damage things.

which is why a being with supernatural strength, provided it is properly granted and not just an arbitrary thing granted by an author who hasn't really considered the implications of what supernatural strength really means (ie not titan juicers), should count as a supernatural attack.

for the nightbane, which are supernatural beings with numerous supernatural abilities and are considered by the nightlords to be natural enemies, i don't think it's unreasonable for them to deal supernatural damage (in morphus form, of course). in fact, i personally think it's *unreasonable* to presume that they don't deal supernatural damage. it is theoretically possible for a gigantic hulking brute of a human to turn into a 2 foot tall pixie, complete with wings and sparkles, and yet be able to uproot trees and smash through brick walls in pixie form when they could never hope to do that in human form. why? because they're supernatural.

[Hendrik]

supernatural PS is quite clearly far more than just being really, really strong. ... it's not just more strength. that could be reflected simply by giving them a larger bonus to strength. it's supernatural. ... it is theoretically possible for a gigantic hulking brute of a human to turn into a 2 foot tall pixie, complete with wings and sparkles, and yet be able to uproot trees and smash through brick walls in pixie form when they could never hope to do that in human form. why? because they're supernatural.

I can agree to all that, Shark Force. I assume you are arguing pro supernatural damage even if the Nightbane has a normal weapon in his hand, right? Love your example of the 2 foot tall pixie and agree.

To give an example of what I mean...with the SNPS stat

Race/class/power__________________does it's bare-handed attacks by pass hound AR
Dragons____________________________yes
Mega-Heros________________________debatable 90% yes/10% no
Normal hero w/SNPS________________debatable 20% yes/ 80% no
NightBane__________________________yes
Vamps_____________________________yes
Titan Juicer_________________________No!
Mega Juicer_________________________Yes
T-Man______________________________Yes

Hi, drewkitty.

I think I understand your table, but I do not understand why "mega heroes" and "normal heroes w/SNPS" are rated "debatable". Well, I understand from your argument - even if it then eludes me if you follow your aura argument why "Mega Juicers" have it - but not from the table above. What is a T-Man? What I don't get is how you arrive at the 90/10 and 20/80 quotas. That said, I am still really, really looking forward to hear your answers to my questions:

Regarding the aura theory some serious questions: when does it stop to work, do you rate an inch cap on the aura, how many inches then? Must there really be direct contact? Is it direct contact if the nightbane wears gloves? How thin, how thick? What about knuckledusters? What about boots? If naked touch is not required why not a knife?

Cheers
Hendrik

[drewkitty ~..~]

To give an example of what I mean...with the SNPS stat

Race/class/power__________________does it's bare-handed attacks by pass hound AR
Dragons____________________________yes
Mega-Heros________________________debatable 90% yes/10% no
Normal hero w/SNPS________________debatable 20% yes/ 80% no
NightBane__________________________yes
Vamps_____________________________yes
Titan Juicer_________________________No!
Mega Juicer_________________________Yes
T-Man______________________________Yes

Hi, drewkitty.

I think I understand your table, but I do not understand why "mega heroes" and "normal heroes w/SNPS" are rated "debatable". Well, I understand from your argument - even if it then eludes me if you follow your aura argument why "Mega Juicers" have it - but not from the table above. What is a T-Man? What I don't get is how you arrive at the 90/10 and 20/80 quotas. That said, I am still really, really looking forward to hear your answers to my questions:

Cheers
Hendrik

Mega-juicers .... The M-J process, in a PPE rich environment, turns the char into a minor SN creature.
The Dragon Juicer would also have a SN aura that would negate the hounds' P.I.

T-Men.....Magical.....
-----
The %'s... these are my opinions about how each side of the possible argument would hold water.

In my games M_Heros would be a yes, but if the char for just having the SNPS power, I would consider the background before ruling which way.

[Hendrik]

To give an example of what I mean...with the SNPS stat

Race/class/power__________________does it's bare-handed attacks by pass hound AR
Dragons____________________________yes
Mega-Heros________________________debatable 90% yes/10% no
Normal hero w/SNPS________________debatable 20% yes/ 80% no
NightBane__________________________yes
Vamps_____________________________yes
Titan Juicer_________________________No!
Mega Juicer_________________________Yes
T-Man______________________________Yes

Hi, drewkitty.

I think I understand your table, but I do not understand why "mega heroes" and "normal heroes w/SNPS" are rated "debatable". Well, I understand from your argument - even if it then eludes me if you follow your aura argument why "Mega Juicers" have it - but not from the table above. What is a T-Man? What I don't get is how you arrive at the 90/10 and 20/80 quotas. That said, I am still really, really looking forward to hear your answers to my questions:

Cheers
Hendrik

Mega-juicers .... The M-J process, in a PPE rich environment, turns the char into a minor SN creature.
The Dragon Juicer would also have a SN aura that would negate the hounds' P.I.

T-Men.....Magical.....
-----
The %'s... these are my opinions about how each side of the possible argument would hold water.

In my games M_Heros would be a yes, but if the char for just having the SNPS power, I would consider the background before ruling which way.

Understood, thanks, drewkitty.

2 items open:
I still do not know what a "T-Man" is. Rolling your eyes - hope this does not turn into a habit as I do not think my questions unworthy of anyone's attention and "rolling eyes" comes over as a bit insulting - does not really come near to answer my question, nor does the one-word reference "magical". I just do not happen to understand what the "T-Man" abbreviation stands for and seek to understand.

Secondly, I am still eagerly awaiting an answer to my set of questions regarding the how you handle the extent of the aura in your game. You know that I do not see this as you do and do not underwrite the aura theory, but it is a fine way to handle it and I am very interested to know how you deal with it. I would really appreciate it if you would deign to reply to my questions. Thanking you in advance.

Cheers
Hendrik

[drewkitty ~..~]

T-man= Tattooed Man/TA Undead Hunter/Tattooed Archer (the latter two being subsets of the 1st.

They are rifts references like the juicers.
---------------
the other questions are ones each GM needs to answer themselves.

If it is a h2h (hand/foot/claw/tentacle) attack then the auras encounter each other.

[Hendrik]

T-man= Tattooed Man/TA Undead Hunter/Tattooed Archer (the latter two being subsets of the 1st. They are rifts references like the juicers.

Thank you. I am not that Rifts savvy so that abbreviations tend to elude me.

the other questions are ones each GM needs to answer themselves.

Naturally. I am merely interested in your answers and would not have taken them necessarily for a canon reply.

If it is a h2h (hand/foot/claw/tentacle) attack then the auras encounter each other.

Ok. How do you handle gloves/boots, or different levels of thickness of such? For example would a nightbane with a full armour (not form, but normal metal gauntlets) change your assessment, i.e. would you say that the aura works then or not? Do you have an inch limit or do you improvise that from situation to situation (no critique there, just want to know how you handle it)?

Cheers
Hendrik

[drewkitty ~..~]

T-man= Tattooed Man/TA Undead Hunter/Tattooed Archer (the latter two being subsets of the 1st. They are rifts references like the juicers.

Thank you. I am not that Rifts savvy so that abbreviations tend to elude me.

My apologies. There are so many Rifters here that it is normal for people to assume that everyone else knows them.




Rifter: people who just play rifts.
Rifters: players that just know rifts and don't understand PB makes better games then the cash cow.
Rifters: rifts players who insist the Rifts is the 'be all' 'is all' that is Palladium books.

[Warwolf]

Thank you, it is a very interesting topic, Mark. I agree there is no indication that every supernatural creature causes supernatural damage, and that needs clarification, but everyone with supernatural strength would cause supernatural damage. Let us forget about the weapon issue for a second, which also requires clarification, the strength rules seem pretty clear on the former ...

Ah, but the question isn't whether it's supernatural damage (as you say, it obviously does). The question is whether a physical attack with supernatural strength counts as a "supernatural attack." My opinion? For these purposes, no. But I hope to be able to clarify the language and effects very, VERY soon.

[Hendrik]

Thank you, it is a very interesting topic, Mark. I agree there is no indication that every supernatural creature causes supernatural damage, and that needs clarification, but everyone with supernatural strength would cause supernatural damage. Let us forget about the weapon issue for a second, which also requires clarification, the strength rules seem pretty clear on the former ...

Ah, but the question isn't whether it's supernatural damage (as you say, it obviously does). The question is whether a physical attack with supernatural strength counts as a "supernatural attack." My opinion? For these purposes, no. But I hope to be able to clarify the language and effects very, VERY soon.

Ah, but it is Mark ... Nightbane have supernatural strength. They are thus described as supernatural beings (PS entry on supernatural strength) and cause supernatural damage, at least hth. I think you are right that it is nowhere mentioned that their supernatural strength based attacks count as supernatural attacks, but isn't that splitting the hair a bit fine, my friend?

Depending on where you want to go with it - and you know how much I am looking forward to your next book! - does it matter? Regarding the hounds the question is really very simple and there is no need for esoterics (drewkitty, I am looking at you and smiling ): do we want hounds to get the benefit of AR 13 against nightbane beating them up or not...


Kindest regards
Hendrik

[Warwolf]

Ah, but it is Mark ... Nightbane have supernatural strength. They are thus described as supernatural beings (PS entry on supernatural strength) and cause supernatural damage, at least hth. I think you are right that it is nowhere mentioned that their supernatural strength based attacks count as supernatural attacks, but isn't that splitting the hair a bit fine, my friend?

Depending on where you want to go with it - and you know how much I am looking forward to your next book! - does it matter? Regarding the hounds the question is really very simple and there is no need for esoterics (drewkitty, I am looking at you and smiling ): do we want hounds to get the benefit of AR 13 against nightbane beating them up or not...


Kindest regards
Hendrik

I, most respectfully, disagree. It isn't supernatural "damage" that ignores the A.R. it is supernatural "attacks." Thus, the hair must be split. In the end my vote is a resounding NO. But that still has to be put by the final arbiter, Herr Kevmeister. And he might have a very different opinion

And just to be clear, I'm going to do what I can to see supernatural strength vs. natural A.R. handled the same way it is in HU2 (if for no other reason than consistency). That would mean strike rolls over the A.R. deal full damage while under the A.R. still deals half.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Ah, but it is Mark ... Nightbane have supernatural strength. They are thus described as supernatural beings (PS entry on supernatural strength) and cause supernatural damage, at least hth. I think you are right that it is nowhere mentioned that their supernatural strength based attacks count as supernatural attacks, but isn't that splitting the hair a bit fine, my friend?

Depending on where you want to go with it - and you know how much I am looking forward to your next book! - does it matter? Regarding the hounds the question is really very simple and there is no need for esoteric (drewkitty, I am looking at you and smiling ): do we want hounds to get the benefit of AR 13 against nightbane beating them up or not...


Kindest regards
Hendrik

I, most respectfully, disagree. It isn't supernatural "damage" that ignores the A.R. it is supernatural "attacks." Thus, the hair must be split. In the end my vote is a resounding NO. But that still has to be put by the final arbiter, Herr Kevmeister. And he might have a very different opinion

And just to be clear, I'm going to do what I can to see supernatural strength vs. natural A.R. handled the same way it is in HU2 (if for no other reason than consistency). That would mean strike rolls over the A.R. deal full damage while under the A.R. still deals half.

Splitting more hairs....

Hounds, Hound Masters, & Hunters are listed in having just "AR"... Not "Natural AR" (If they wanted it to be NAR then they should of listed it as "Natural A.R.")
And the discussion is also about the Hound's (and others) Partial Invulnerability.

I need to retract my stance that SNPS will overcome the Partial Invulnerability of hounds, HM, and Hunters. It clearly states that only Magic will overcome/bypass it. So even attack by beings with SNPS will have their damage cut in half.

However,: and yes has to get esoteric with this; damage from bare handed (/foot/ tentacle/<whatever>) attacks by SN creatures and beings do ignore the AR of the Hounds, HM, and hunters and with any damage going directly to their HP.
This is because the attack is supernatural in nature and that reduces the Hound's AR to '0', so the attack by passes the hound's armor; which is it's SDC; so the damage is applied to the hound's HP.

I might add that the text for AR in the NB main book is bad because there is a bit of text that is not a part of the PB system canon lexicon of what AR is. Everything after the " A.R.: " and before " "Characters with artificial" are the bad bits of text. Being located in the wrong term definition.

Of the said text the "Any roll of 5, or better, will strike a character with no body armor." Should be in the "Strike" term definition after the last sentence there.

The rest of the indicated parts sounds like they should be in a "Natural AR" term definition.

So chalk more up to bad editing.

KS should get someone who will do the job of proofreader correctly, instead of relying on just 'his friends'. Who have shown they are not doing said job.