So what American remnants still exist on Rifts Earth?

[keir451]

I haven't read all the post so if some one else has mentioned this please forgive the repetition, According to the Revised SB 1, there are also nearly 300,000 (?) NEMA & assorted military personnel in stasis deep within the ARCHIE 3/ HQ Echo compund.

ROTFLMAO!!! No, you're not the first person to mention it, only difference is that every time someone mentions it an extra zero gets added to the end of that figure. So which is it?

Are there 3,000 NEMA soldiers in stasis?
Are there 30,000 NEMA soldiers in stasis?
Are there 300,000 NEMA soldiers in stasis?

Frankly, I half expect someone to come in and say "THEY'RE ALL WRONG! THERE'RE 3,000,000 NEMA SOLDIERS IN STASIS!!!1!11!"

Chalk it up to having been on the road since 9 am (central time)!! That and I haven't looked at that info in a while. Good catch!

[Pepsi Jedi]

Thanks for the clarification there.

So why does ARCHIE-3 keep them all in stasis, anyway? Why not wake them up? Or why not kill them? Why keep them on ice?

The answer is complicated. Not trying to be a dodge or anything, but you should pick up the book and read it for yourself so you get the story and can sorta see it with out some judgements that might get attached on a forum.

[Cyber-Knight]

Thanks for the clarification there.

So why does ARCHIE-3 keep them all in stasis, anyway? Why not wake them up? Or why not kill them? Why keep them on ice?

The answer is complicated. Not trying to be a dodge or anything, but you should pick up the book and read it for yourself so you get the story and can sorta see it with out some judgements that might get attached on a forum.

Yeah, like I said, I already went ahead and ordered it along with Triax 2 and Powers Unlimited 3. It just sucks that there isn't a game store in town that I could just go and pick it up from, and instead have to wait for Palladium to deliver. Blech, I hate waiting for books!

[calto40k]

think i just found a new book for my giftmas grab bag

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Thanks for the clarification there.

So why does ARCHIE-3 keep them all in stasis, anyway? Why not wake them up? Or why not kill them? Why keep them on ice?

I'd say the main reason is that ARCHIE doesn't want to die. If the soldiers were awakened and made aware of ARCHIE's actions over the past 300 years, they would definitely make it a priority to destroy the AI.

[Cyber-Knight]

Thanks for the clarification there.

So why does ARCHIE-3 keep them all in stasis, anyway? Why not wake them up? Or why not kill them? Why keep them on ice?

I'd say the main reason is that ARCHIE doesn't want to die. If the soldiers were awakened and made aware of ARCHIE's actions over the past 300 years, they would definitely make it a priority to destroy the AI.

In which case, then, why does ARCHIE keep them alive? Why not pull the plug on their stasis chambers and let them all die? Why hide them away from the Mechanoids when they would've gladly shot every single one of them dead? It doesn't make sense to keep them alive if ARCHIE fears them so much.

[Armorlord]

I'd say the main reason is that ARCHIE doesn't want to die. If the soldiers were awakened and made aware of ARCHIE's actions over the past 300 years, they would definitely make it a priority to destroy the AI.

I wouldn't say that. What it boils down to, honestly for the most part, was that it was never safe enough to awaken them. The past 15 years or so gets a little more shaky to justify, but the majority of the last 300 years, Archie's assessment has been spot-on. Now that he is carving out his own little empire.. well, if you frame it right you can make that stick too. "Carving out a safe buffer to release them into." "Creating allied forces." etc.

At the end of the day, if there were a 'win' scenario for North America, it would be Archie allied the various armaments as a 'heroic' Golden Age being. Not very likely though.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Thanks for the clarification there.

So why does ARCHIE-3 keep them all in stasis, anyway? Why not wake them up? Or why not kill them? Why keep them on ice?

I'd say the main reason is that ARCHIE doesn't want to die. If the soldiers were awakened and made aware of ARCHIE's actions over the past 300 years, they would definitely make it a priority to destroy the AI.

In which case, then, why does ARCHIE keep them alive? Why not pull the plug on their stasis chambers and let them all die? Why hide them away from the Mechanoids when they would've gladly shot every single one of them dead? It doesn't make sense to keep them alive if ARCHIE fears them so much.

ARCHIE is insane.

[SAMASzero]

Thanks for the clarification there.

So why does ARCHIE-3 keep them all in stasis, anyway? Why not wake them up? Or why not kill them? Why keep them on ice?

I'd say the main reason is that ARCHIE doesn't want to die. If the soldiers were awakened and made aware of ARCHIE's actions over the past 300 years, they would definitely make it a priority to destroy the AI.

In which case, then, why does ARCHIE keep them alive? Why not pull the plug on their stasis chambers and let them all die? Why hide them away from the Mechanoids when they would've gladly shot every single one of them dead? It doesn't make sense to keep them alive if ARCHIE fears them so much.

It's in the book.

On another note, while I don't hate the Republican gear, I do agree it's kinda bland and weak for what they need it for.

[taalismn]

[
In which case, then, why does ARCHIE keep them alive? Why not pull the plug on their stasis chambers and let them all die? Why hide them away from the Mechanoids when they would've gladly shot every single one of them dead? It doesn't make sense to keep them alive if ARCHIE fears them so much.

ARCHIE has inherited the male human inability to clean a refrigerator and throw anything out. He's gotten used to them like the way some guys adopt the stale pizza in the back of the fridge as a mascot. Or because he feels he might one day have an important use for them.

[Cyber-Knight]

Damn, that reminds me, I need to go throw out those pizza crusts I have in my refrigerator.

[taalismn]

Damn, that reminds me, I need to go throw out those pizza crusts I have in my refrigerator.

Break it to them gently that you're going to have to let them go.

[masslegion]

Thanks for the clarification there.

So why does ARCHIE-3 keep them all in stasis, anyway? Why not wake them up? Or why not kill them? Why keep them on ice?

Because Archie is still very much a computer, despite how much he claims full sentience, he is still a PC with corrupted hardware. IF you have the right codes you could probably force him to do anything. He was programmed to keep them safe, and so he keeps them in stasis, but the decisions he has made by killing NEMA personnel who came to claim the NEMA Historics or Sleepers means if he wakes them they will lobotomize him at best and probably just take him off lone altogether (kill him). So they remain in stasis.

[Nightmask]

Thanks for the clarification there.

So why does ARCHIE-3 keep them all in stasis, anyway? Why not wake them up? Or why not kill them? Why keep them on ice?

Because Archie is still very much a computer, despite how much he claims full sentience, he is still a PC with corrupted hardware. IF you have the right codes you could probably force him to do anything. He was programmed to keep them safe, and so he keeps them in stasis, but the decisions he has made by killing NEMA personnel who came to claim the NEMA Historics or Sleepers means if he wakes them they will lobotomize him at best and probably just take him off lone altogether (kill him). So they remain in stasis.

ARCHIE-3 doesn't just claim it's fully sentient it's made quite clear in its write-up that it's a fully sentient and unique lifeform, so it's quite unlikely codes that would have worked when it was just a neural intelligence would have any impact on it centuries later after mutating into a unique lifeform.

People stored in stasis that it's watching over is just another bad plot idea, since it doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons (including it would have unfroze them when it started its first effort to rebuild civilization to help).

[masslegion]

Thanks for the clarification there.

So why does ARCHIE-3 keep them all in stasis, anyway? Why not wake them up? Or why not kill them? Why keep them on ice?

Because Archie is still very much a computer, despite how much he claims full sentience, he is still a PC with corrupted hardware. IF you have the right codes you could probably force him to do anything. He was programmed to keep them safe, and so he keeps them in stasis, but the decisions he has made by killing NEMA personnel who came to claim the NEMA Historics or Sleepers means if he wakes them they will lobotomize him at best and probably just take him off lone altogether (kill him). So they remain in stasis.

ARCHIE-3 doesn't just claim it's fully sentient it's made quite clear in its write-up that it's a fully sentient and unique lifeform, so it's quite unlikely codes that would have worked when it was just a neural intelligence would have any impact on it centuries later after mutating into a unique lifeform.

People stored in stasis that it's watching over is just another bad plot idea, since it doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons (including it would have unfroze them when it started its first effort to rebuild civilization to help).

According to Sb1: revised my statement holds true. Read Nightmares of a Tin Man pg 112.

edit: added nightmares of a tin man

[taalismn]

[People stored in stasis that it's watching over is just another bad plot idea, since it doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons (including it would have unfroze them when it started its first effort to rebuild civilization to help).

Nightmask, need I remind you of something? You've said so yourself, but here's a refresher:
Repeat after me:
"Logic has no place in a Rifts game."

[Gamer]

Thanks for the clarification there.

So why does ARCHIE-3 keep them all in stasis, anyway? Why not wake them up? Or why not kill them? Why keep them on ice?

Because Archie is still very much a computer, despite how much he claims full sentience, he is still a PC with corrupted hardware. IF you have the right codes you could probably force him to do anything. He was programmed to keep them safe, and so he keeps them in stasis, but the decisions he has made by killing NEMA personnel who came to claim the NEMA Historics or Sleepers means if he wakes them they will lobotomize him at best and probably just take him off lone altogether (kill him). So they remain in stasis.

ARCHIE-3 doesn't just claim it's fully sentient it's made quite clear in its write-up that it's a fully sentient and unique lifeform, so it's quite unlikely codes that would have worked when it was just a neural intelligence would have any impact on it centuries later after mutating into a unique lifeform.

People stored in stasis that it's watching over is just another bad plot idea, since it doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons (including it would have unfroze them when it started its first effort to rebuild civilization to help).

According to Sb1: revised my statement holds true. Read Nightmares of a Tin Man pg 112.

edit: added nightmares of a tin man

Yes, yes it does and makes perfect sense.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Huh, somehow quotes got confused further up the thread and have my name attached to them where they shouldn't. Just pointing that out.

[Nightmask]

[People stored in stasis that it's watching over is just another bad plot idea, since it doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons (including it would have unfroze them when it started its first effort to rebuild civilization to help).

Nightmask, need I remind you of something? You've said so yourself, but here's a refresher:
Repeat after me:
"Logic has no place in a Rifts game."

Uh no, I've never said that. I've said the opposite instead. Logic very much has a place in Rifts (and most other games, unless you're playing one intentionally based in illogical things).

[Nightmask]

Thanks for the clarification there.

So why does ARCHIE-3 keep them all in stasis, anyway? Why not wake them up? Or why not kill them? Why keep them on ice?

Because Archie is still very much a computer, despite how much he claims full sentience, he is still a PC with corrupted hardware. IF you have the right codes you could probably force him to do anything. He was programmed to keep them safe, and so he keeps them in stasis, but the decisions he has made by killing NEMA personnel who came to claim the NEMA Historics or Sleepers means if he wakes them they will lobotomize him at best and probably just take him off lone altogether (kill him). So they remain in stasis.

ARCHIE-3 doesn't just claim it's fully sentient it's made quite clear in its write-up that it's a fully sentient and unique lifeform, so it's quite unlikely codes that would have worked when it was just a neural intelligence would have any impact on it centuries later after mutating into a unique lifeform.

People stored in stasis that it's watching over is just another bad plot idea, since it doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons (including it would have unfroze them when it started its first effort to rebuild civilization to help).

According to Sb1: revised my statement holds true. Read Nightmares of a Tin Man pg 112.

edit: added nightmares of a tin man

I've no interest in the revised version and the bad retcons it introduced, both for the Republicans and if it tried to downgrade ARCHIE-3 to just a hackable PC that only thinks it's sentient instead of the actual sentient lifeform as presented in the original book.

[Slight001]

From what I recall it wasn't presented as much about A.R.C.H.I.E.-3 being hackable as it was about them discovering a way to high jack portions of his factories while he wasn't paying attention... iirc it was only possible while he went into a sudo-sleep mode he was experimenting with.

From what I understand of it A.R.C.H.I.E.-3 is new form of life that began as a computer. It's possible that while he was in this sleep mode and his active defenses were down that the republicans were able to 'trick' him into a state not unlike sleep walking.

I'm not happy with all of the Republicans were behind everything! BS... pure BS... maybe that was the plan all along but I don't like it. Perhaps its just because of their name... I really hate that party... course I hate the other parties but that one is top of the **** list... or who knows... I do know this through... their tech sucks... it might be more advanced, but it's not built to handle the realities of post-Rifts warfare.

The Republicans are crazed nutters living in their own little world ignoring the real world all around them simply because it doesn't fit with their view or it wasn't what they wanted to happen.

[Pepsi Jedi]

From what I recall it wasn't presented as much about A.R.C.H.I.E.-3 being hackable as it was about them discovering a way to high jack portions of his factories while he wasn't paying attention... iirc it was only possible while he went into a sudo-sleep mode he was experimenting with.

From what I understand of it A.R.C.H.I.E.-3 is new form of life that began as a computer. It's possible that while he was in this sleep mode and his active defenses were down that the republicans were able to 'trick' him into a state not unlike sleep walking.

I'm not happy with all of the Republicans were behind everything! BS... pure BS... maybe that was the plan all along but I don't like it. Perhaps its just because of their name... I really hate that party... course I hate the other parties but that one is top of the **** list... or who knows... I do know this through... their tech sucks... it might be more advanced, but it's not built to handle the realities of post-Rifts warfare.

The Republicans are crazed nutters living in their own little world ignoring the real world all around them simply because it doesn't fit with their view or it wasn't what they wanted to happen.

They're gettin' a little crazy. That's for sure. Their

Spoiler:

"Operation ASSASSINATE EVERYONE" plan is pretty funny.

I also don't like the Retacon that they founded the CS.... FQ..... Lazlo..... and were the ones that killed the Fed leader.... It feels very.. well. Comic book Retacon-y. And not in a good way either.

That being said I like the little glitter armor with the stick. LOL maybe it's just me but I think it's neat.

[Oberoth]

There is also the remnants of the Canadian RCMP. AKA: Tundra rangers (Rifts: Canada). If I remember correctly there was some sort of D-shift that spared the Canadian RCMP/NEMA forces.

[Pepsi Jedi]

There is also the remnants of the Canadian RCMP. AKA: Tundra rangers (Rifts: Canada). If I remember correctly there was some sort of D-shift that spared the Canadian RCMP/NEMA forces.

Yeah I posted them a few days back.

[Mack]

From what I recall it wasn't presented as much about A.R.C.H.I.E.-3 being hackable as it was about them discovering a way to high jack portions of his factories while he wasn't paying attention... iirc it was only possible while he went into a sudo-sleep mode he was experimenting with.

From what I understand of it A.R.C.H.I.E.-3 is new form of life that began as a computer. It's possible that while he was in this sleep mode and his active defenses were down that the republicans were able to 'trick' him into a state not unlike sleep walking.

I'm not happy with all of the Republicans were behind everything! BS... pure BS... maybe that was the plan all along but I don't like it. Perhaps its just because of their name... I really hate that party... course I hate the other parties but that one is top of the **** list... or who knows... I do know this through... their tech sucks... it might be more advanced, but it's not built to handle the realities of post-Rifts warfare.

The Republicans are crazed nutters living in their own little world ignoring the real world all around them simply because it doesn't fit with their view or it wasn't what they wanted to happen.

They're gettin' a little crazy. That's for sure. Their

Spoiler:

"Operation ASSASSINATE EVERYONE" plan is pretty funny.

I also don't like the Retacon that they founded the CS.... FQ..... Lazlo..... and were the ones that killed the Fed leader.... It feels very.. well. Comic book Retacon-y. And not in a good way either.

That being said I like the little glitter armor with the stick. LOL maybe it's just me but I think it's neat.

There's an important nuance to remember when dealing with the Republicans. The books says they claim to be responsible for a number of things, but doesn't say if they actually are. That is left to the GM.

[taalismn]

[There's an important nuance to remember when dealing with the Republicans. The books says they claim to be responsible for a number of things, but doesn't say if they actually are. That is left to the GM.

"Well, we MIGHT have created the Coalition States back when...Great Grandpa's notebooks aren't definite on that score, and his journal entries for about that time are kinda blurred from what looks like beer or moonshine stains...But great-gramps wouldn't lie about a thing like that, or how he arm-wrestled a Splugorth neither...."

[masslegion]

[There's an important nuance to remember when dealing with the Republicans. The books says they claim to be responsible for a number of things, but doesn't say if they actually are. That is left to the GM.

"Well, we MIGHT have created the Coalition States back when...Great Grandpa's notebooks aren't definite on that score, and his journal entries for about that time are kinda blurred from what looks like beer or moonshine stains...But great-gramps wouldn't lie about a thing like that, or how he arm-wrestled a Splugorth neither...."

funny! I like it

[Pepsi Jedi]

From what I recall it wasn't presented as much about A.R.C.H.I.E.-3 being hackable as it was about them discovering a way to high jack portions of his factories while he wasn't paying attention... iirc it was only possible while he went into a sudo-sleep mode he was experimenting with.

From what I understand of it A.R.C.H.I.E.-3 is new form of life that began as a computer. It's possible that while he was in this sleep mode and his active defenses were down that the republicans were able to 'trick' him into a state not unlike sleep walking.

I'm not happy with all of the Republicans were behind everything! BS... pure BS... maybe that was the plan all along but I don't like it. Perhaps its just because of their name... I really hate that party... course I hate the other parties but that one is top of the **** list... or who knows... I do know this through... their tech sucks... it might be more advanced, but it's not built to handle the realities of post-Rifts warfare.

The Republicans are crazed nutters living in their own little world ignoring the real world all around them simply because it doesn't fit with their view or it wasn't what they wanted to happen.

They're gettin' a little crazy. That's for sure. Their

Spoiler:

"Operation ASSASSINATE EVERYONE" plan is pretty funny.

I also don't like the Retacon that they founded the CS.... FQ..... Lazlo..... and were the ones that killed the Fed leader.... It feels very.. well. Comic book Retacon-y. And not in a good way either.

That being said I like the little glitter armor with the stick. LOL maybe it's just me but I think it's neat.

There's an important nuance to remember when dealing with the Republicans. The books says they claim to be responsible for a number of things, but doesn't say if they actually are. That is left to the GM.

I don't remember it being like that. I thought they said they DID found the CS, FQ and 'maybe' lazlo but it's been a month or so.

[Mack]

I don't remember it being like that. I thought they said they DID found the CS, FQ and 'maybe' lazlo but it's been a month or so.

Leaf through p120-121 and see if that frame of reference changes what you get from the write-up. It leapt out at me.

[Gamer]

I don't remember it being like that. I thought they said they DID found the CS, FQ and 'maybe' lazlo but it's been a month or so.

Leaf through p120-121 and see if that frame of reference changes what you get from the write-up. It leapt out at me.

Could be taken both ways, it's all in how each person interprets what was written. (see the potential for a wording war starting )
I'm with the claiming notion though.

[Nightmask]

I don't remember it being like that. I thought they said they DID found the CS, FQ and 'maybe' lazlo but it's been a month or so.

Leaf through p120-121 and see if that frame of reference changes what you get from the write-up. It leapt out at me.

Could be taken both ways, it's all in how each person interprets what was written. (see the potential for a wording war starting )
I'm with the claiming notion though.

Last thing we need is another one of those.

[Cyber-Knight]

I found a preview of the ARCHIE-3 short stories from the book posted on RPG.net. Damn interesting turn of events, although I was REALLY frustrated as the previews only went up to Part 6, right before the last part. D'oh! I want to know what happened when Hagan went to check out Factory 7! :\

[Cyber-Knight]

Well, I finally got the book. Very interesting indeed. And personally I like their gear. The Golden Eagle looks really nice, although I dislike that it's not made of Chromium armor like the Silver Eagle and Glitter Boy. What's the point of its being all shiny and glittery if it's not chromium armor? May as well paint it some other color and make it a bit less obvious.

As for ARCHIE-3 getting hacked, I don't see why that'd be a problem. Sentience doesn't make you immune to being controlled. If it did then mind control spells and psychic powers wouldn't exist or be effective. The difference with ARCHIE is that, given his nature, he's just vulnerable to a different kind of mind control. That doesn't make him any less sentient though.

I can see why the Republicans would be pissed at ARCHIE, though. Those 30,000 NEMA soldiers absolutely could have made the difference between victory and defeat against that army of 20,000 Splugorth Minions that Splynncryth sent against them. Had ARCHIE released them then North America might look a whole lot different now.

Incidentally, why does Director Elliot look like Hector Hammond?

[Nightmask]

Nightmask, you are sentient, but if I give you "downers" you will still feel tired, likewise, if I open your head with surgery (and know what I am doing) I can trigger memories, feelings, even physical responses.

Are you saying just because you are sentient you cant be made do do things against your will by someone diddling your brain?

Why should A.R.C.H.I.E. Three be any different?

Because our brains aren't the same for one, because it's no longer a 'dumb' machine controlled by programming and backdoors for another. From a storytelling point it'd also be massively anti-climatic that someone could just pull up some old back door commands and 'poof' this super-intelligence that's been running a secret empire from behind the scenes is now just some dumb slave to someone else (whether the PC group or someone else). You can't hack and dominate a cyborg or Machine Person why then should you get to have a cheap way to gain untold power with a few computer commands?

[keir451]

I appear to be the only one on the forums who actually thinks that the republicans equipment is an abomination. ABOMINATION I SAY!

Not true, Sir! I, too, felt that the Republicans gear was a joke esp. when compared to the ACTUAL NEMA tech described in Chaos Earth.
I agree w/Nightmask, it shouldn't be that easy for a group of survivors to just "backdoor" their way into the HQ Echo AI (ARCHIE) especially as ARCHIE & GHQ Echo were a secret project that only went online just as the catacltysym happened. IMO the then Director of the CIA would NOT have access codes for the base as it would be outside his jurisdiction, the only ones who should have knowledge of Archie's programming are the technicians and the base CO who're still in stasis.

[Slight001]

Without digging out my book and double checking then posting quotes and page numbers...

From what I remember of the event it seemed to be more akin to sleep walking then actual Hacking. If I'm not mistaken the Republicans were only able to 'hack' A.R.C.H.I.E.-3 because he was essentially in sleep mode and experimenting with dreams. The republicans 'simply' (not likely all that easy...) pushed A.R.C.H.I.E.-3 into 'dreaming' about running the plant(s) and disengaged the safeties that would have normally prevented his 'dream' actions from becoming real actions.

[The Galactus Kid]

Damn, that reminds me, I need to go throw out those pizza crusts I have in my refrigerator.

Break it to them gently that you're going to have to let them go.

Let them down easy. Pull the ol' "It's not you, it's me." or the "We've just grown so much. We're totally differnt now."

[keir451]

Without digging out my book and double checking then posting quotes and page numbers...

From what I remember of the event it seemed to be more akin to sleep walking then actual Hacking. If I'm not mistaken the Republicans were only able to 'hack' A.R.C.H.I.E.-3 because he was essentially in sleep mode and experimenting with dreams. The republicans 'simply' (not likely all that easy...) pushed A.R.C.H.I.E.-3 into 'dreaming' about running the plant(s) and disengaged the safeties that would have normally prevented his 'dream' actions from becoming real actions.

Sound reasonable enough. It'd be interesting if the NEMA troops were actually woken up and they made contact w/the Tundra Rangers and the New Navy and then gave the Republicans the ol' middle finger for being such posers.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

And what makes you think unleashing a force like this might be a good thing. A general who only has to answer to himself, somehow they just might start a new kingdom one based on military vs a civilian one.
A place like the coalition states might look more appealing, to a military, easy rules to follow, I can see the coalition helping them if they follow the coalition rules, or form some type of alliance for food and other needs. While some might think otherwise, but remember the rules have changed and out of 28 thousand soldiers a number of them would accept coalition rule if it gives them a chance to have a somewhat normal life.

[Cyber-Knight]

And what makes you think unleashing a force like this might be a good thing. A general who only has to answer to himself, somehow they just might start a new kingdom one based on military vs a civilian one.

You mean like the Coalition?

I think the more likely scenario is that, as someone else pointed out, that the Coalition would probably just try to kill them all and take their stuff. They're certainly not going to invite an army of 28,000 to just move into Chi-Town, even if they were disarmed, because of the possibility of their contaminating the citizens of Chi-Town. Imagine having 28,000 men and women among the citizenry who're fully literate and believe in things like free speech, a free press, and democracy. The Coalition isn't about to allow anyone like that within their borders, particularly in such high numbers and with military training and expertise.

The Coalition States itself isn't something that'd likely appeal to them anyway. The Republicans are appaled by the Coalition and they've been living in the world for 300 years. How much more would the NEMA troops be disgusted by what they saw given that they have a memory of living in a much freer and more open society? A handful of guys here and there isn't the whole of the army. Just as the New Navy hasn't opted to join the Coalition, I very much doubt these guys would, either.

[Nether]

And what makes you think unleashing a force like this might be a good thing. A general who only has to answer to himself, somehow they just might start a new kingdom one based on military vs a civilian one.
A place like the coalition states might look more appealing, to a military, easy rules to follow, I can see the coalition helping them if they follow the coalition rules, or form some type of alliance for food and other needs. While some might think otherwise, but remember the rules have changed and out of 28 thousand soldiers a number of them would accept coalition rule if it gives them a chance to have a somewhat normal life.

I dont know about that, I would think if they were going to join anyone it would be the New Navy mainly because they are the closest thing to what they new, the last vestige of the American empire assuming they find out about each other. Also for how an American soldier should think ext I can't see them accepting the CS very easily.

Not to mention you have 30,000 people that are jam packed full of pre rifts knowledge, that same knowledge the CS has banned and prosecute for, they are also all literate, and they follow ideals that some of, would be stripped from them in CS society. Especially when they could make base as an army, maybe even 'take' over Archie facilities that they get out of automatically giving them some strong capabilities and then scout and decide what or who they want to be a part of / ally. Once they hear about the NN they would prolly try to become thier "land" aspect or Army for them.

I could really see this going this way and honestly I am thinking of a campaign to do this. The players could be a NEMA trooper or something from Chaos Earth that could reasonably fit in with them say if they want to play a mage or psychic, but make them NEMA.
Lots to do for a campaign, survive reanimation, reclaim factory from archie, fight for land, encounter dbee force, fight a CS recon force, some Fed of Magic jerks show up from Dunscon demanding allegiance that you have to punch in the face, then find the other pre rifts factions and decide where to go, who to join and I would push the NN. Besides this would also bring the NN out and be a bit more and starts the restoration of sorts of the American empire.

[Nether]

Also i just wanted to agree with those that think the Republicans story of being responsible for all the big factions of NA is just dumb imo.

Their gear is cool, but the organization to me is just terrible. I like the CS as the group that formed after the apocalypse and came to what they are, it is very Postman like to me and I think the CS fits that theme even better than what rev SB retconns.

And the name just rubs me the wrong way. The whole fact they are using a political party name for their empire just seems soo lacking and especially considering in light of a apocalypse I cant see to many societies that werent very pro military structured.

Anyway, my 2c

[Cyber-Knight]

I don't see it as their using a political party name. They're fighting to create a new republic. One of the definitions of the term "Republican" is "one who favors a republic as the best form of government." The citizens of the NGR (the New German Republic) who favor their governmental system could be called Republicans. Marcus Junius Brutus, Marcus Tullius Cicero, and Cato the Younger could also be called Republicans due to their fighting to preserve Rome's republican form of government and prevent a monarchy from taking root. Likewise, these guys are about installing a republican form of government, hence the name.

I dont know about that, I would think if they were going to join anyone it would be the New Navy mainly because they are the closest thing to what they new, the last vestige of the American empire assuming they find out about each other. Also for how an American soldier should think ext I can't see them accepting the CS very easily.

Yeah, it'd be like having them willingly sign up to join up with Nazi Germany. Even if it's the only game in town, there're some lines that are just uncrossable.

Not to mention you have 30,000 people that are jam packed full of pre rifts knowledge, that same knowledge the CS has banned and prosecute for, they are also all literate, and they follow ideals that some of, would be stripped from them in CS society. Especially when they could make base as an army, maybe even 'take' over Archie facilities that they get out of automatically giving them some strong capabilities and then scout and decide what or who they want to be a part of / ally. Once they hear about the NN they would prolly try to become thier "land" aspect or Army for them.

Exactly. The CS has nothing to offer them as all they can look forward to, at best, is being under house arrest and kept apart from each other. At worst, they'll probably end up disappearing quietly in the middle of the night the instant they say anything slightly negative about Coalition policies or contrary to the Prosek regime. Together, though, they don't need the Coalition. They could easily carve out a place for themselves in North America, whether on their own, taking over ARCHIE-3's bunkers, joining up with the Republicans, teaming up with the Tundra Rangers, or making contact with the New Navy and moving into their hidden cities. Hell, given that NEMA had supernatural experts working for them and also teamed up with some D-Bee's, as was the case with the Squilb's, they may even be willing to team up with Lazlo. So the Coalition's far from their only option, and definitely not their best. And if ARCHIE-3 is right about their capabilities then they could smash through the walls of Chi-Town and take over. There's no need at all for them to leave themselves completely at the mercy of the Coalition.

I could really see this going this way and honestly I am thinking of a campaign to do this. The players could be a NEMA trooper or something from Chaos Earth that could reasonably fit in with them say if they want to play a mage or psychic, but make them NEMA.
Lots to do for a campaign, survive reanimation, reclaim factory from archie, fight for land, encounter dbee force, fight a CS recon force, some Fed of Magic jerks show up from Dunscon demanding allegiance that you have to punch in the face, then find the other pre rifts factions and decide where to go, who to join and I would push the NN. Besides this would also bring the NN out and be a bit more and starts the restoration of sorts of the American empire.

Yeah, I've had similar thoughts, about having all of these disparate elements (The NEMA Army, the Republicans, the New Navy, the Megaversal Legion, and Freedom Station) coming together as one force.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

And what makes you think unleashing a force like this might be a good thing. A general who only has to answer to himself, somehow they just might start a new kingdom one based on military vs a civilian one.

You mean like the Coalition?

I think the more likely scenario is that, as someone else pointed out, that the Coalition would probably just try to kill them all and take their stuff. They're certainly not going to invite an army of 28,000 to just move into Chi-Town, even if they were disarmed, because of the possibility of their contaminating the citizens of Chi-Town. Imagine having 28,000 men and women among the citizenry who're fully literate and believe in things like free speech, a free press, and democracy. The Coalition isn't about to allow anyone like that within their borders, particularly in such high numbers and with military training and expertise.

The Coalition States itself isn't something that'd likely appeal to them anyway. The Republicans are appaled by the Coalition and they've been living in the world for 300 years. How much more would the NEMA troops be disgusted by what they saw given that they have a memory of living in a much freer and more open society? A handful of guys here and there isn't the whole of the army. Just as the New Navy hasn't opted to join the Coalition, I very much doubt these guys would, either.

Free press, free speech and democracy aren't military things, those are civilians things, the military just does the job to make sure someone doesn't take them away, but if they are gone then no use fighting for them, all is lefted is the job. But the reality of situation will become known to the general, their homeland is gone,the families are dead, there is no px or supermarkets to supply them with food, in hostile land and very few nations can take that many folks with few problems. The general is going to keep his boys and girls alive if that means joining the coalition states so be it, the coalition will have a hard time control them at first but general and his officers will keep them in line and any trouble makers will be dealt with like the military has done in the past , only difference now there isn't news crews trying to drum up support for a soldier who was trying to do the "right" thing. Odds are the coalition states would set up a base with CS advisors to help them get adjusted to their new timeline. As long as they are willing to play Karl's game they are safety, heck the coalition might put the base near or in brisco , Texas in the lone star WB where they still called themselves Americans and fly the flag of the united states of america, and work for the coalition.

But please don't confusion what the coalition civilian government does with the CS military does.

[Cyber-Knight]

Free press, free speech and democracy aren't military things, those are civilians things, the military just does the job to make sure someone doesn't take them away, but if they are gone then no use fighting for them, all is lefted is the job.

Now that's just downright silly. You really think they'll just happily be willing to go and live in a dictatorship where they'll be oppressed without any qualms? They're soldiers, not frightened sheep.

But the reality of situation will become known to the general, their homeland is gone,the families are dead, there is no px or supermarkets to supply them with food, in hostile land and very few nations can take that many folks with few problems. The general is going to keep his boys and girls alive if that means joining the coalition states so be it

Again, we're talking about soldiers, not sheep. They could forage for food. You're right, though. He'd keep his men alive no matter what, and trying to join the Coalition would be suicide for them. And even if it wasn't suicide they'd have to spend their lives in an oppressive dictatorship. That's not a solution any of them would realistically accept. Especially not when they have the power to carve out their own place in the world. They could set up a base of operations somewhere, join up with any number of independent towns, and offer them protection in exchange for supplies. Or they could do what the thousands of other small armies which travel the length and breadth of North America do, and offer up their services as a mercenary army. Or hell, they could go to Lazlo, which can easily provide them with supplies. And unlike the Coalition, Lazlo offers a democratic government, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and so on.

the coalition will have a hard time control them at first but general and his officers will keep them in line and any trouble makers will be dealt with like the military has done in the past , only difference now there isn't news crews trying to drum up support for a soldier who was trying to do the "right" thing. Odds are the coalition states would set up a base with CS advisors to help them get adjusted to their new timeline.

I get the feeling that you're talking about your fanfiction version of the Coalition. In reality, that's not what would happen. The Coalition would more than likely exterminate these guys the moment they laid eyes on them. And if they didn't, they'd only allow them in if they disarmed themselves completely, at which point they'll be separated from each other and kept under strict surveillance. If any of them step out of line in any way then they're likely to disappear in the middle of the night and never be seen again. There is no way that the Coalition will happily tolerate a bunch of people who're literate and value freedom, nevermind the fact that they know the REAL history of the world, and not the made-up Coalition history. The Coalition killed librarians to cover up the fact that the SAMAS was Pre-Rifts technology. What do you think they'd do to 28,000 people who know that the SAMAS isn't original Coalition technology, nevermind all the other secrets they know and which the Coalition wouldn't want their general populace to be aware of? There is simply no way they're going to allow these people to live. Odds are that if they were to allow them into Chi-Town, it'd be so they could be disarmed before quietly killing them one at a time.

As long as they are willing to play Karl's game they are safety, heck the coalition might put the base near or in brisco , Texas in the lone star WB where they still called themselves Americans and fly the flag of the united states of america, and work for the coalition.

Why would they want to play Karl's game in the first place? According to ARCHIE-3, they've got the firepower to take out Karl and set themselves up as the new rules of the Coalition. So why in the world would they willingly expose their bare throats to Rifts Earth version of Adolf Hitler and every other tinpot dictator these guys have ever heard of and which they'd naturally despise, and give him the chance to cut their collective throats when they have so many other options available to them, up to and including taking over the Coalition for themselves?

But please don't confusion what the coalition civilian government does with the CS military does.

The Coalition government answers to the Coalition military. It's a dictatorship. The civilian government has no authority over anything.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Free press, free speech and democracy aren't military things, those are civilians things, the military just does the job to make sure someone doesn't take them away, but if they are gone then no use fighting for them, all is lefted is the job.

Now that's just downright silly. You really think they'll just happily be willing to go and live in a dictatorship where they'll be oppressed without any qualms? They're soldiers, not frightened sheep.

But the reality of situation will become known to the general, their homeland is gone,the families are dead, there is no px or supermarkets to supply them with food, in hostile land and very few nations can take that many folks with few problems. The general is going to keep his boys and girls alive if that means joining the coalition states so be it

Again, we're talking about soldiers, not sheep. They could forage for food. You're right, though. He'd keep his men alive no matter what, and trying to join the Coalition would be suicide for them. And even if it wasn't suicide they'd have to spend their lives in an oppressive dictatorship. That's not a solution any of them would realistically accept. Especially not when they have the power to carve out their own place in the world. They could set up a base of operations somewhere, join up with any number of independent towns, and offer them protection in exchange for supplies. Or they could do what the thousands of other small armies which travel the length and breadth of North America do, and offer up their services as a mercenary army. Or hell, they could go to Lazlo, which can easily provide them with supplies. And unlike the Coalition, Lazlo offers a democratic government, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and so on.

the coalition will have a hard time control them at first but general and his officers will keep them in line and any trouble makers will be dealt with like the military has done in the past , only difference now there isn't news crews trying to drum up support for a soldier who was trying to do the "right" thing. Odds are the coalition states would set up a base with CS advisors to help them get adjusted to their new timeline.

I get the feeling that you're talking about your fanfiction version of the Coalition. In reality, that's not what would happen. The Coalition would more than likely exterminate these guys the moment they laid eyes on them. And if they didn't, they'd only allow them in if they disarmed themselves completely, at which point they'll be separated from each other and kept under strict surveillance. If any of them step out of line in any way then they're likely to disappear in the middle of the night and never be seen again. There is no way that the Coalition will happily tolerate a bunch of people who're literate and value freedom, nevermind the fact that they know the REAL history of the world, and not the made-up Coalition history. The Coalition killed librarians to cover up the fact that the SAMAS was Pre-Rifts technology. What do you think they'd do to 28,000 people who know that the SAMAS isn't original Coalition technology, nevermind all the other secrets they know and which the Coalition wouldn't want their general populace to be aware of? There is simply no way they're going to allow these people to live. Odds are that if they were to allow them into Chi-Town, it'd be so they could be disarmed before quietly killing them one at a time.

As long as they are willing to play Karl's game they are safety, heck the coalition might put the base near or in brisco , Texas in the lone star WB where they still called themselves Americans and fly the flag of the united states of america, and work for the coalition.

Why would they want to play Karl's game in the first place? According to ARCHIE-3, they've got the firepower to take out Karl and set themselves up as the new rules of the Coalition. So why in the world would they willingly expose their bare throats to Rifts Earth version of Adolf Hitler and every other tinpot dictator these guys have ever heard of and which they'd naturally despise, and give him the chance to cut their collective throats when they have so many other options available to them, up to and including taking over the Coalition for themselves?

But please don't confusion what the coalition civilian government does with the CS military does.

The Coalition government answers to the Coalition military. It's a dictatorship. The civilian government has no authority over anything.

you do realize there is more to the Coalition States then one city right?
the famed Lazlo! yeah, the general and his officer knew how bad it was before there little nap, to find out a dragon is running that place. yup cross that off dont know how many people he eat.
free press and free speech and democracy is what you learn in military basic training, no wait its not
yes first time they run into an Atlantis raiding party i bet believe in those notions of free speech, free press and democracy will help them in the atlantis slave pits, right?

first you need to take in count they mindset, they went under while the coming of the rifts was happening, they knew how bad it was, and how many of them will side with the coalition, lets me guess in your fanfiction? none, because they are nazis, oh my, nobody would joined them because they are nazis!
odds are there will be clashes between them, they are a threat to the coalition, if they have archie-3 data on the coalition, wait you think they would attack their fellow humans, because they are nazis!, right? because the can crack the outer shell of chi-town, well what about the other coalition states you realize there is just more then one city right?

[Nether]

I've gotta agree with CK on this one, that there is just no way the NEMA forces would join the CS. To them it really would be like joining the Nazis back in the day, and thats a war that will not be forgotten for a long time.

It is one thing to never know certain freedoms/liberties, and completely another thing to know them and have someone try to take them away. For this facet alone I cant see the NEMA forces accepting anything less. And they are soldiers, soldiers understand what it is to live like spartan people and make do with what you have, otherwise they would have washed out long ago.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

And what makes you think unleashing a force like this might be a good thing. A general who only has to answer to himself, somehow they just might start a new kingdom one based on military vs a civilian one.
A place like the coalition states might look more appealing, to a military, easy rules to follow, I can see the coalition helping them if they follow the coalition rules, or form some type of alliance for food and other needs. While some might think otherwise, but remember the rules have changed and out of 28 thousand soldiers a number of them would accept coalition rule if it gives them a chance to have a somewhat normal life.

I dont know about that, I would think if they were going to join anyone it would be the New Navy mainly because they are the closest thing to what they new, the last vestige of the American empire assuming they find out about each other. Also for how an American soldier should think ext I can't see them accepting the CS very easily.

Not to mention you have 30,000 people that are jam packed full of pre rifts knowledge, that same knowledge the CS has banned and prosecute for, they are also all literate, and they follow ideals that some of, would be stripped from them in CS society. Especially when they could make base as an army, maybe even 'take' over Archie facilities that they get out of automatically giving them some strong capabilities and then scout and decide what or who they want to be a part of / ally. Once they hear about the NN they would prolly try to become thier "land" aspect or Army for them.

I could really see this going this way and honestly I am thinking of a campaign to do this. The players could be a NEMA trooper or something from Chaos Earth that could reasonably fit in with them say if they want to play a mage or psychic, but make them NEMA.
Lots to do for a campaign, survive reanimation, reclaim factory from archie, fight for land, encounter dbee force, fight a CS recon force, some Fed of Magic jerks show up from Dunscon demanding allegiance that you have to punch in the face, then find the other pre rifts factions and decide where to go, who to join and I would push the NN. Besides this would also bring the NN out and be a bit more and starts the restoration of sorts of the American empire.

i thought that too at first but they might veiw the new navy are traitors and deserters becuase the one thing they didnt do that they easy could have establish a major foothold in north america and try to reclaim former united states

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I've gotta agree with CK on this one, that there is just no way the NEMA forces would join the CS. To them it really would be like joining the Nazis back in the day, and thats a war that will not be forgotten for a long time.

It is one thing to never know certain freedoms/liberties, and completely another thing to know them and have someone try to take them away. For this facet alone I cant see the NEMA forces accepting anything less. And they are soldiers, soldiers understand what it is to live like spartan people and make do with what you have, otherwise they would have washed out long ago.

they are soldier they know things happen for a reason, they know they world was ripped apart, they know their families are dead, they know their world of freedom and safety is gone and may never return, they know how to follow orders.

spartan people , what they take young boys as lovers,
they are not spartans, they are late 21st century soldiers, not some holy army of freedom, free press, free speech and democracy champions, sure they will miss that stuff, they are soldiers and know the most important things in rifts earth, to be quiet and follow the orders.

[Cyber-Knight]

you do realize there is more to the Coalition States then one city right?

Yeah, but Chi-Town's, and Karl Prosek's opinion, is the only one that matters.

the famed Lazlo! yeah, the general and his officer knew how bad it was before there little nap, to find out a dragon is running that place. yup cross that off dont know how many people he eat.

Read up on the Squilb in D-Bee's of North America. NEMA forces have been known to ally with D-Bee's.

free press and free speech and democracy is what you learn in military basic training, no wait its not

They don't need to learn it in basic training because they grew up in the United States of America. It's something they've lived with their whole lives. They're not going to trade that in to live in a police state.

yes first time they run into an Atlantis raiding party i bet believe in those notions of free speech, free press and democracy will help them in the atlantis slave pits, right?

You talk as if North America is completely barren of life save for the Coalition States. There're countless pockets of civilization all over North America, both big and small, as well as many groups which travel across the land, like the various mercenary companies described in Rifts: Mercenaries. There're about 11,000 mercenaries in the named mercenary companies and they do just fine without giving up all their rights to hide behind the walls of Chi-Town, and you think the NEMA army would do any worse? They're an army of 30,000 troops in gear more advanced than what the Coalition has to offer. They'll be just fine. Nevermind that, if they are awakened, they may very well be able to take over ARCHIE-3 and all his resources. Not only would they be just fine, they'd be better then fine as they'd have a safe and fortified base which nobody knows about and with plenty of resources to resupply as well as build themselves an army of robots. But even without that, they clearly don't need the Coalition to survive or thrive. If Larsen's Brigade can make it on their own, if the Cyber-Knight's can make it on their own, if the countless of other independent organizations both large and small which dot the entirety of North America can survive, then 30,000 NEMA soldiers can get along just fine.

first you need to take in count they mindset, they went under while the coming of the rifts was happening, they knew how bad it was, and how many of them will side with the coalition, lets me guess in your fanfiction? none, because they are nazis, oh my, nobody would joined them because they are nazis!

Alright, I’m having a hard time understanding what you’re saying here, because you’re starting to descend into gibberish. Are you asking why they’d attack the Coalition? Sourcebook One says so. The Republicans want to wake the NEMA army up for just that. That’s not something I invented. Siembieda put that possibility right in the book. It was his idea, not mine, that that NEMA army would smash the walls of Chi-Town and conquer it.

odds are there will be clashes between them, they are a threat to the coalition, if they have archie-3 data on the coalition, wait you think they would attack their fellow humans, because they are nazis!, right? because the can crack the outer shell of chi-town, well what about the other coalition states you realize there is just more then one city right?

Once Chi-Town falls the rest would fall into place. Chi-Town is the backbone of the Coalition. Only Iron Heart is capable of standing on its own, and even then it’s a weak power. Without Chi-Town the Coalition is nothing. That wasn’t true when Rifts first came out, as they also had Free Quebec, but Free Quebec is gone. And they certainly wouldn’t go riding to Chi-Town’s rescue. If it’s a choice between Emperor Prosek, who stabbed them in the back and tried to invade them, and who they’re still afraid will try again, and ancient NEMA heroes from the Dark Ages as well as the people who gave them Glitter Boy technology in the first place, then they’ll root for the latter every time.