Keeping Recon Alive

[slade the sniper]

In your opinion, what are 3 things that can be done to keep Recon (or more generally this forum) alive and kicking?

Some things I have thought of doing are army lists of various nations, a list of current/historical conflicts with some background, a list of PMCs, some NPC writeups of movers and shakers, an expanded character skill selection for modern military characters and (maybe) crossover stuff to make the Recon line more megaversal so we could benefit from the other game lines.

Just some thoughts. Looking forward to other people's ideas.

-STS

[Kovoston]

You have a good start there! Make sure the information is current and balanced (hard to do) and the possible inclusion of all the "hot spots" on the Earth are also including home grown dangers like the drug kingpins and the gang wars!

Also include civilian authorities like SWAT teams and even FBI and CIA if you can.

Do you need help? Are you making a Rifter or a book Submission??

[slade the sniper]

I was thinking of making a Rifter article based on weapons and units currently in use or expected to become available in the next five years like statting up the Striker, Bradley, Abrams, BMP-2/3, T-72/80, the K-1 and K-2, some aircraft like the AH-64, KA-50, MI-24, F-22, B-52, etc...stuff like that and then do some break downs of military and intel units from the US, Russia, Israel, etc...

Sort of like what was done for GURPS Special Ops, Delta Green and the modern weapons/vehicle supplements for D20 Mecha... I don't know, it just seems that there is a lot that could be done to make a real world military/intel game more up to date than seeing Recon wither and die, Ninjas and Superspies be lost in the sauce and the other games be a bit off in left field when it comes to how stuff works IRL.

I have a lot of this junk laying around in files and books that could be used, I just really don't know when/if/where to start. I've got some mass combat rules I have cobbled together over the years and some pretty good info on a lot of the stuff I would like to do, but don't really know how much use any of it would be for the larger gaming community.

Anyway, it was just an idea to see if there was any interest. I would be more than happy to collaborate with others on some stuff if we just want to sticky up a bunch of stats/rules/organizations or even for an article in the Rifter.

A difficult part is finding where to benchmark things, either in Recon or the other game lines. In Recon, it is very realistic in that weapons kill and the PCs are mostly normal, whereas the default in the other games is that the PCs are special and thus more apt to treated as such.

While I am all for four color comic book style gaming, I think that using some real world locations would lend a certain level of gravitas that is missing in many games...

Anyway, I will focus on my school work for a bit and check back on here in a few days to see if there are any other ideas.

-STS

[jaymz]

I am all for this. I am slowly....very slowly doing up stats for modern military hardware myself. I do mean slowly though. I can show you what I've done so far and i do have a few posted on this forum actually)

[slade the sniper]

What would people on the forums prefer? An update that brings a modernized Recon into line with the rest of the PB Megaverse...or an updated Recon that keeps the original feel of high lethality but updated to include newer stuff and PMCs? There is a third option which is to make everything with a Recon stat block and a PB Megaverse stat block...

What say you?

-STS

[jaymz]

Why can't we have both?

[slade the sniper]

Doing both is an option...A recon stat block and a megaversal stat block.
Ok, then if that is the case, then next thing is setting benchmarks for weapons, armor, stats, training percentages and other stuff from other books to be brought into Recon and vice versa.

-STS

[jaymz]

Well let's see.....HU2 GM Guide has a selection of vehicles and weapons to start with. It would be a matter of gathering all that data then extrapolating what newer weapons/vehicles would do in comparison to those baselines.

[slade the sniper]

Agreed, but there is a big issue here...
Game stats are designed to make things epic and allow for a slow whittling down of hit points until the target is destroyed or made incapable of operation.

In the real world, weapons typically have three effects:
1. nothing
2. damages something
3. destroys the object

While I can see the game effect of "nothing" being represented by failure to pass the AR of the object, and damaging something being represented by whittling off SDC...the result of getting destroyed is far too rare. This could be handled by increasing damage ratings by weapons to the point where one shot kills become at least 50% possible between peer competitors.

Tomorrow, I will toss up some ideas for benchmarks for weapons, armor and training and we can see if that goes anywhere.

-STS

[jaymz]

You could look at something akin to how Mekton did it....maybe depending on how much you beat the AR by you could do more and more damage. Change up the rules for things like armour piercing weapons. Excplosives damage everything in the blast radius on a vehicle or person not just the main body. Etc etc.

[Jefffar]

If Publication is the goal, new Recon materiel will have to fit the megaversal system.

However, that doesn't mean it couldn't include 'optional' rules that provide for more 'realistic' weapons effects and 'grittier' feel for those who like them.

[slade the sniper]

Publication would not be the goal as I think that the canon stats for anything bigger than .50 cal are just wrong. I can work with what they have, but it would annoy me a lot to try to keep it cannon. What I can do is try to present a .50 cal and bigger chart that works a bit better than what they have so far...
I think what I will do is go with a Recon benchmark (canon), a Megaversal benchmark (canon) and then a Recon extrapolation and Megaversal extrapolation, but it will only be for .50 cal and up since the stuff below that level is good enough.

Oh, well, I am off to go watch Resident Evil

-STS

[jaymz]

Yeah I think for regular weapons the Modern Weapon Compendium is a good benchmark but tank weapons etc are .... well yes they need a bit of correction to some degree.

[Zamion138]

Yeah an urban settings book, modernize weapons and machines.
Personaly recons damage makes way more sense than the rest of palladium....hence 3 shots from a battle rifle kills just about anyone baring a terrible roll string and really high body stat.

[slade the sniper]

There might be a way to get around the SDC argument...similar to how SW D20 has vitality and wound points... SDC could represent toughness, training, pain resistance, flesh wounds, etc and HP represents actual injuries. If that is the case, then a lot weapons would do damage direct to hit points without having to chew through 30 to 50 SDC first. The same can be done for armored vehicles by using larger damage ratings (Mega Damage) against SDC vehicles that have a few thousand SDC such as IFV's and tanks.

In the next few days I will post the stats of the benchmarks (from existing PB books) for weapons and equipment, then the stats for the extrapolated/realistic weapons weapons and equipment. A lot of work has already been done in this area, and there are plenty of sources to get IRL equipment stats from (weight, speed, volume, etc) so I won't bother with any of that, I will focus purely on the damage capacity of the objects in question.

Would people like me to post all of it as one long list or break it up as a compare and contrast so that other forum members can more easily comment on specific items? I am currently in the lovely Middle East, again...and am a bit short on books, especially Recon (which is stupid, since I am posting in the Recon forum)...sooooo, could anyone post or PM me the book stats of weapons and equipment from that book so that we can proceed?

Alternately, I can just do the standard Megaversal list, but, again, it would seem a bit odd unless I moved the post to some other location.

-STS

[jaymz]

IIRC the stuff from recon was effectively on par with the listings in the Compendium of Modern Weapons so you could use THAT as your reference point....

As foir how to post it, maybe make two threads, one for person and support weapons and one for vehicles and artillery/support weapons.

[Zamion138]

IIRC the stuff from recon was effectively on par with the listings in the Compendium of Modern Weapons so you could use THAT as your reference point....

As foir how to post it, maybe make two threads, one for person and support weapons and one for vehicles and artillery/support weapons.

Maybe i am misunderstanding but i dont see the stuff in recon being on par with the compendium. As an example an ak in recon did 4 or5d10 in the compedium i belive it was 4 or 5d6, and in recon your stat was controled by a % roll and while the rest of the megaverse is on sdc and hp?

(I dont have my books so if im way off again sorry)

So in recon 2 hits from an ak with an average of 50% for the body your dead and it usaly takes 4 to 5 hits to drop a "normal" human with an ak..........Am I missing something?

[jaymz]

Based on what i saw in my revised recon some of the weapons had similar damages is all. No you are not misunderstanding anything.

[Zamion138]

Based on what i saw in my revised recon some of the weapons had similar damages is all. No you are not misunderstanding anything.

The thing i like about recon is that its not sdc personaly, way more brutal. Wich is couter balanced with the ease of char creation.

[jaymz]

well slade suggested a simple way to fix that within the megaversal system.

[slade the sniper]

Still needing someone to do the Recon stats, since I don't have my books here on this deployment I have the houserules that I use to make Recon PCs into standard PB characters. Additionally, there are a LOT more benchmarks available in the Megaversal system than there are in Recon, that will make the project easier.

What I will do is make the list of benchmarks, then one list for small arms, one list for larger weapons and then finally a list of weapons modifiers for certain types of weapons (HEAT, HEAP, etc.)

-STS

[jaymz]

I only have a poor copy of Revised Recon and there really is much in the way of hard game stats in it that I can see anyway. Other than SOME weapons. No vehicles seem t have game stats per se. I'll see if I can get them to you.

[slade the sniper]

Ok, first look at the info for Recon and Megaversal damage ratings...
Bottom line, they look similar, oddly enough. Recon PCs have between 30 and 100 “hit points” (referred to HP to allow for commonality of terms), whereas Megaversal PCs have between 10 and 30 hit points, along with several tens of SDC (also between 10 and 30). Therefore a Megaversal PC can have between 20 and 60 combined “hit points.” When comparing weapon damage, however, the higher weapon damage of Recon weapons, appears to makes Recon a deadlier game by far. Two to five rounds of almost weapon in the game is sufficient to kill or severely damage any Recon PC. However, against a standard human PC in the Megaversal system, the same amount of rounds will have the same effect. It is only when dealing with super-powered or technologically empowered PCs that the damage system breaks down. This would occur in either game.

Bottom line: Recon characters have a mathematically similar amount of damage capacity as human megaversal characters.
Going with high end and low end numbers:
30 "HP" in Recon vs 20 "HP" in Megaversal
100 "HP" in Recon vs 60 "HP" in Megaversal

Recon PCs have between 1.5 and 1.6 the amount of "HP" that a Megaversal PC would have

Due to the comparison of hit points in the Recon and Megaversal systems, any weapons damage in the Recon system that are between 1.5 and 1.6 are equivalent in damage to the Megaversal damage. These particular damages are bolded. Overall, the majority of common benchmarks are very similar.

With regard to damage, doing a high end, mean and low end comparison:

9mm
Recon 2d10+5
Megaversal 3d6
7/3 = 2.3
15/9 = 1.66 (close to the 1.6 threshold)
25/18 = 1.38

.45 Caliber
Recon 3d10+5
Megaversal 4d6 to 5d6
8/4 = 2
8/5 = 1.6
20/12 = 1.6
20/15 = 1.3
35/24 = 1.45 (close to the 1.5 threshold)
35/30 = 1.16

5.56mm
Recon 4d10+5 to 4d10+15
Megaversal 5d6
9/5 = 1.8
19/5 = 3.8
25/15 = 1.6
35/15 = 2.3
45/30 = 1.5
55/30 = 1.83
Due to the massive disparity in damage in Recon, the comparison between Megaverse and Recon seems to favor the 4d10+5 rating, especially since the short barrelled Colt Commando does not do more damage than the M-16...There is a lot more to it than that (barrel twist, bullet construction, powder type)

7.62x39mm
Recon 4d10+10
Megaversal 5d6+3
14/8 = 1.75
30/18 = 1.66 (close to the 1.6 threshold)
50/33 = 1.51 (close to the 1.5 threshold)

7.62x51mm NATO
Recon 4d10+10
Megaversal 6d6+3
14/9 = 1.55
30/21 = 1.42
50/39 = 1.28

7.62mmx54R
Recon 4d10+10
Megaversal 7d6
14/7 = 2
30/21 = 1.42
50/42 = 1.19
Underpowered compared the Megaversal equivalent

.50 Caliber
Recon 5d10+15
Megaversal 1d6x10
20/10 = 2
40/30 = 1.33
65/60 = 1.08
The Recon version of this round is, IMO, greatly underpowered.

12 Gauge shotgun
Recon 4d10
Megaversal 5d6 buckshot to 7d6 slug
4/5 = 0.8
4/7 = .57
20/15 = 1.33
20/21 = .95
40/30 = 1.33
40/42 = .95
The Recon version of this is also rather underpowered compared to its Megaversal equivalent


Therefore the PC hit points in both systems are “equivalent” in terms of weapon damage in their respective system. Thus converting the PC from Recon to the Megaversal is simply dividing their stats by 5 to get a Megaversal equivalent, rolling up “new” stats such as PB that are not used in Recon (3d6, 4d6-lowest, however you do it) and to get Megaversal hitpoints just divide the BODY stat by 1.55 (the average between high/low conversion).

Additionally, the skills selection in Recon is by no means marginal, and skills are still rated by %, although Recon PCs are generally very young (17 to 21 is generally agreed upon, considering the genre…Vietnam and the draft era), their lower skills can be understood… Go to Basic and Go to War does not badasses make… If you want higher “level” or more skilled PCs there are the Merc creation rules and there is always Advanced Recon. The MOS system is not that different from the one observed in the newer Palladium Megaversal products such as Robotech or Rifts Ultimate Edition, thus making a lot of the MOS available in Recon transferable to the other Megaversal games.

Finally, since larger weapon damages and structural benchmarks (cars, walls, bunkers, tanks, etc.) are not available in Recon, nor is body armor…there is no reason to use any Recon rules for that…

Due to this, I sadly declare Recon, as a stand-alone game to be dead to me…I will still use the MOS system in other games, and I will still visit this forum, but really, I think that I would be better served by seeing military related fluff bits (new MOS, new organizations/units, missions, etc.) in here as opposed to anything crunchy. I can’t speak for anyone else, but…yeah…

-STS

[jaymz]

Sadly with the newer Urban Warfare game essentially in developmental limbo you may be right Slade....at least for a more realistic combat environment.

I know I have tried to adjust and make the standard system bot more deadly and more survivable at the same time....with limited success to be sure.

[slade the sniper]

Well, with there are two ways to go I suppose...up damage and/or decrease HP

For increasing damage of weapons...that is do-able, but then that just lends credence to the power-creep faction, which I would be loathe to do.

Decreasing HP can be done in a few ways...

1. There is no SDC, only HP. This would make combat very, very deadly and something to avoid.
The benefit would be very quick combat so that one or two gunshots, people are usually dead or well on their way. Realistic, but harsh.

2. Critical strikes go directly to HP. This makes lucky shots game changers...instead of doing double damage, or maybe even triple damage, the damage just skips SDC and cuts right to the quick. This makes the game deadly, but also introduces an element of luck that is somewhat mitigated by characters at higher levels having more attacks and a wider crit range so that they are not at the same risk of being crushed by low level mooks. But, facts don't lie and even in a full up armored suit in an armored turret, a critical strike can still put the biggest bada$$ down for the count in one shot. Realistic but heavily dependent on luck

3. Reduce SDC by a factor of 10, or 5 or whatever and add them to HP. This makes PCs tougher than option 1, but keeps the silliness of 100+ SDC PCs in check. Realistic-ish

4. Sometypes of attacks deduct SDC, some types deduct HP. Can be worked with to simulate blunt trauma vs penetrating injuries vs burns vs electrical shock vs etc. While a nice idea, it would be pretty horrible to have each type of damage have some different effect. Realistic but a book-keeping annoyance

5. Leave as is BUT high SDC characters must have a reason! As shown above (in my previous post) a 60 HP+SDC for a top of the line, ultra-tough, high level human man-killer is possible...but there are people that are this good, IRL. Additionally, if you shoot them a few times they will also die. There is a reason that double-taps, controlled-pairs, Mozambique drills, failure drills, etc. are taught. Single shots CAN kill, it is just that they rarely do...and it is best to continue to shoot the target until the target is stopped. This can be represented by a skill, or an additional WP OR each additional shot does additional damage per round, thus if a round does 3d6 damage per round (for a 9mm), then a double tap should do 6d6 damage, and a Mozambique drill should do 9d6 damage... This is really the way to make high level special operations military professionals deadly...the ability to kick out 6d6 damage PER ATTACK, on a called shot to the head...that kills things dead. And if you are using a 5.56mm carbine (M4 or something similar) you can do controlled pairs doing 10d6 damage to the head. When you increase this power to machineguns, the killing power gets a bit silly... four or five 7.62mm rounds doing 6d6+3 each...that is 24d6+12 to 30d6+15 damage per burst.

Granted Palladium does a pretty good job of allowing multi-shot damage to be realistic, but there are really no reasons why NORMAL HUMAN PCs can not be shot and killed very easy in the Megaverse. This system breaks down, obviously when dealing with Juicers, Crazies and Dragons...but that is the point. They were designed to be exceptionally powerful, and deadly. When technology suddenly can make joe bob off the street the physical superior of an Olympic athlete with the accuracy of a sniper carrying a weapon that can normally only be mounted on a vehicle and armored to a level equivalent to a light armored vehicle...then yes, normal bullets and the concept of normal humans has been supplanted by these "super soldiers." Thus, to best super soldiers in conflict, requires something more...

-STS

[jaymz]

I'm in the lethal/non-lethal damage camp

[slade the sniper]

I'm in the lethal/non-lethal damage camp

I am guessing that you mean option 4? I like it that idea as well, but it has a tendency to become a nightmare, similar to d20 where there are like 10 damage types...and for extra realism, you can have certain armors stop certain types of damage similar to Battlelords of the 23rd Century (awesome game, but damn combat was a pain...almost as bad as Phoenix Command or the original Aliens RPG).

-STS

[jaymz]

Oh gods Phoenix Command......the only game I know of that had 60+ "random" hit locations on the human body IIRC....

[slade the sniper]

Looking over the skill programs from N&SS and the MOS list from Recon.

Each "skill program" in N&SS is roughly 10 skills, and each MOS from Recon is also 10 skills... So, it would be possible to tag each MOS as a Skill Program. While it can be understood that in Recon, the PCs are not needed to have a wide variety of skills, because the focus of the game was much more narrow than some other RPGs.

Thus, to bring Recon into the Megaverse, would basically make Recon PCs more competent, or make other OCCs in the Megaverse have a more military bent. I actually like this idea as it opens up a lot more capability for Megaverse PCs and military games, especially for some esoteric but valuable skills.

-STS

[jaymz]

And there is also the option of using the "education table" from Heroes Unlimited for those who wish to expand the capabilities of their characters as well.

ie - the college graduate that signs up for a tour to get some worldly experience so to speak.

[slade the sniper]

That was sort of what I going with...using Megaversal tables for Education but having the MOSs as skill programs, so if a PC gets a military program, he can pick up one of the Recon MOS as a skill program.

Each of the weapons skills would just become a WP, and everything else stays the same.

But...does anyone else drop the D20 combat rules and run straight % rolls (Recon style) in their megaversal games? I have done it this way since I first played Recon and BRP. I could never understand how other skills were % and combat was d20. I like the % based combat rolls since it allows for more granularity. The Hand to Hand skills in Megaversal just add +5% bonuses per +1 the HtH style grants. Just a random thought...

Well, what else should we do for Recon? We have already adjusted Recon PCs to Megaversal, along with the damage system...so really, I guess Recon is the realistic combat module (some assembly required) for the Megaverse, sort of like BtS is the supernatural horror, and HU is the superheroic add in...

I guess now I will just make the realistic heavy weapons/armored vehicles charts now for modern-ish stuff.

-STS

[jaymz]

[slade the sniper]

OK, I have all the weapons data, from .50 cal up to 18 inch battleship cannons done up in PB stats.

Currently, the way I have it is a base damage, and then modifiers based on ammo type such as AP, DU, HEAT, HE, HEAP, HV, fin-stabilized, etc.

1) The question is would people want it that way such as XX weapon, base damage and then ammo types at the end of the list OR have each type of weapon with the ammo types with the weapon such as XX weapon, HE damage, HEAT damage, AP damage, HVAP damage, HEAP damage, etc.

The first way is pretty easy but can get complicated when you start stacking damage such as HVAPFSDSDU-T (hyper-velocity armor piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot depleted uranium tracer)...

The second way lays out all the damage types by weapon, but it is a lot of work to make the list..

So...how do you want it?

2) what would be a good start list for vehicles? Right now I am thinking that a represntative list would be:

Spoiler:

Armored Vehicles:
HMMWV
M-1117
uparmored upgunned suburban
and the almighty technical

APC's:
BTR-60
M-113
BTR-80
Stryker/LAV III/MGS

IFV:
BMP-1
BMD
BMP-2
BMP-3
M2A3

Tanks:
T-55
T-62
T-90S
M1A2SEPV2
Merkava
Leopard 2A6

Helicopters:
MI-6
MI-8
MI-24/35
MI-28
Ka-50/52
UH-1
AH-1
AH-64
OH-58
OH-6/AH-6/MD-500

Propeller aircraft:
A-1 Skyraider
A-26 Invader
O-1 Birddog
OV-10 Bronco
Tu-95
C-130/AC-130
AN-12

Jet aircraft
F-16
F-15
F-22
F-35
F-14
F-18
SU-24
SU-27
SU-30
SU-35
SU-34
SU-25
Mig-17
Mig-25
Mig-31
IL-76

3) I don't think much (if any) work needs to be done with small arms other than odd cartridges like the 6.5x25mm CBJ, 4.6x30mm, 5.7x28mm, 4.73x30mm caseless, 4.73x25mm caseless, .338 Lapua, .300 Whisper, .577 Tyrannosaur...

4) Body armor can be used as is from the other books, but maybe some extra stuff like Dragon Skin and the new-ish sorts of integrated protection/C2 systems like Nett Warrior, and similar systems from other states such as Felin, FIST, IdZ, etc. (come on powered armor, get here already!!!)

-STS

[slade the sniper]

No Maxxpro love?


Sounds like an awesome project!

I totally forgot about all the MRAPs out there...but yeah, it is a lot of work to do. I have a lot of the stuff already done up, but formatting it for the boards is just annoying since it is all currently in excel tables.

Note to NMI: How can I embed tables?

Another question:
Should I break down the SDC of these vehicles location by location (which really is a ginormous pain) or can I get away with just hull/main body, turret/pilot compartment, wings/tracks/wheels?

The reason I ask is that the formula I am using doesn't break down things into discrete chunks like headlights, antenna, side mirrors and other stuff that PB has an odd habit of including in their damage charts.

I was thinking "mission critical" things such as: hull, weapon systems, motive system and crew protection...

-STS

[Zamion138]

To me the headlights and antenna are not important as the windows, body, wheels and maybe seprate sdc/ar for the underbelly due to the high use of ied's

[slade the sniper]

Ok, then I will go for weapons, hull, motive system, and crew protection. For IEDs, they really aren't much different that any other weapon, it is just that the underbody tends to be less armored. I get what you are saying tho...a separate SDC rating depending on the facing...I will see how I can tweak it, BUT, I am thinking that the hull will be X points, but if attacked from above, it only has 1/2 the SDC and from the bottom, it has like 1/4 the SDC.

On a related note...does anyone use stopping power/damage reduction for armor as opposed to just Armor Rating and SDC?

-STS

[Zamion138]

Ok, then I will go for weapons, hull, motive system, and crew protection. For IEDs, they really aren't much different that any other weapon, it is just that the underbody tends to be less armored. I get what you are saying tho...a separate SDC rating depending on the facing...I will see how I can tweak it, BUT, I am thinking that the hull will be X points, but if attacked from above, it only has 1/2 the SDC and from the bottom, it has like 1/4 the SDC.

On a related note...does anyone use stopping power/damage reduction for armor as opposed to just Armor Rating and SDC?

-STS

I havent in a game, though i could, not moraly opposed. Just havent.

[jaymz]

I have tried it as part of my use of AR/Armour strength listing for MDC. Mostly to help characters survive though

[slade the sniper]

NEW Rules
Vehicular Damage: This is an intermediate step between SDC and MDC. For VD, an attack has to do 10 points of damage per attack. For bursts, each round has to do 10 points of SD to do 1 VD. An attack that does 9 points of SD does 0 VD. An attack that does 12 SD does 1 VD, as does an attack that does 17 points of SD. An attack that does 27 SD does 2 VD.

If you don't like it, MDC = SDC x 100, VDC = SDC x 10

Stopping Power: This is the amount of SD that is stopped before the object is damaged. Thus an attack that does 55 points of SD hits an object that has a SP of 40. The attack is reduced by 40 points and thus now does 15 points of damage. If the object is also rated in VDC, then only 1 point of VD is done to the object.

If you don't like SP, just ignore it.

Wheeled vehicles

Spoiler:

M998 HMMWV
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 18 VDC
4 x Wheels 75 SDC

M1114 HMMWV
Stopping Power 40
Main Body 200 VDC
Turret 20 (open top) VDC
4 x Wheels 100 SDC each

M-1117
Stopping Power 40
Main Body 340 VDC
Turret 135 VDC
4 x Wheels 120 SDC each

Armored Suburban
Stopping Power 20
Main Body 900 SDC
4 x Wheels 100 SDC each

Heavy Armored Suburban
Stopping Power 40
Main Body 200 VDC
Turret 10 VDC
4 x Wheels 100 SDC each

Ford Ranger based Technical
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 145 SDC
Turret 50 SDC
4 x Wheels 50 SDC each

Toyota Hilux based Technical
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 150 SDC
Turret 50 SDC
4 x Wheels 50 SDC each

Armored Personnel Carriers

Spoiler:

BTR-60
Stopping Power 40
Main Body 290 VDC
Turret 115 VDC
8 x Wheels 200 SDC each

M-113
Stopping Power 30
Main Body 20 MDC
Turret 20 VDC
2 x Tracks 90 VDC each

BTR-80
Stopping Power 40
Main Body 36 MDC
Turret 14 MDC
8 x Wheels 200 SDC each

Stryker
Stopping Power 40
Main Body 40 MDC
Turret 15 MDC
8 x Wheels 200 SDC each

MGS
Stopping Power 40
Main Body 40 MDC
Turret 10 MDC
8 x Wheels 200 SDC each
Weapon 50 VDC

Tracked IFV

Spoiler:

BMP-1
Stopping Power 40
Main Body 35 MDC
Turret 14 MDC
2 x Tracks 140 VDC each
Weapon 70 VDC

BMD-1
Stopping Power 40
Main Body 26 MDC
Turret 10 MDC
2 x Tracks 100 VDC each
Weapon 50 VDC

BMP-2
Stopping Power 40
Main Body 36 MDC
Turret 14 MDC
2 x Tracks 140 VDC each
Weapon 70 VDC

BMP-3
Stopping Power 70
Main Body 70 MDC
Turret 28 MDC
2 x Tracks 280 VDC each
Weapon 140 VDC

M2A3
Stopping Power 60
Main Body 75 MDC
Turret 30 MDC
2 x Tracks 300 VDC each
25mm Cannon 70 VDC
Tow Launcher 70 VDC

M2A3
Stopping Power 80
Main Body 100 MDC
Turret 40 MDC
2 x Tracks 400 VDC each
25mm Cannon 70 VDC
Tow Launcher 70 VDC

Tanks

Spoiler:

T-55
Stopping Power 60
Main Body 84 MDC
Turret 33 MDC
2 x Tracks 300 VDC each
Weapon 15 MDC

T-62
Stopping Power 80
Main Body 120 MDC
Turret 50 MDC
2 x Tracks 400 VDC each
Weapon 20 MDC

T-90S
Stopping Power 90
Main Body 140 MDC
Turret 55 MDC
2 x Tracks 500 VDC each
Weapon 28 MDC

M1A2SEP
Stopping Power 90
Main Body 165 MDC
Turret 70 MDC
2 x Tracks 650 VDC each
Weapon 30 MDC

M1A2SEPv2 TUSK
Stopping Power 100
Main Body 195 MDC
Turret 78 MDC
2 x Tracks 700 VDC each
Weapon 40 MDC

Merkava
Stopping Power 100
Main Body 190 MDC
Turret 75 MDC
2 x Tracks 750 VDC each
Weapon 38 MDC

Helicopters

Spoiler:

MI-6
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 600 SDC
Main Rotor 250 SDC
Tail assembly 250 SDC
2 x Engines 200 SDC each
2 x Stub Wings 200 SDC each

MI-8
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 300 SDC
Main Rotor 125 SDC
Tail Assembly 150 SDC
2 x Stub Wings 120 SDC each
2 x Engines 120 SDC each

MI-24/35
Stopping Power 40
Main Body 275 VDC
Main Rotor 1000 SDC
Tail Assembly 1100 SDC
2 x Stub Wings 1000 SDC each
2 x Engines 1000 SDC each

MI-28
Stopping Power 50
Main Body 350 VDC
Main Rotor 1000 SDC
Tail Assembly 1300 SDC
2 x Stub Wings 1250 SDC each
2 x Engines 1000 SDC each

Ka-50/52
Stopping Power 60
Main Body 400 VDC
Main Rotor 1500 SDC
Tail Assembly 1500 SDC
2 x Stub Wings 1500 SDC each
2 x Engines 1500 SDC each

UH-1H
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 175 SDC
Main Rotor 70 SDC
Tail Assembly 75 SDC
Engine 70 SDC

AH-1F
Stopping Power 20
Main Body 80 VDC
Main Rotor 325 SDC
2 x Stub Wings 300 SDC each
1 x Engines 300 SDC

AH-64
Stopping Power 60
Main Body 300 VDC
Main Rotor 1200 SDC
2 x Stub Wings 1000 SDC each
2 x Engines 1250 SDC each

OH-58D Kiowa
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 155 SDC
Main Rotor 60 SDC
Tail Assembly 60 SDC
Engine 60 SDC

OH-6/AH-6/MD-500
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 100 SDC
Main Rotor 40 SDC
Tail Assembly 40 SDC
2 x Stub Wings 50 SDC each
1 x Engine 50 SDC

Propeller Aircraft

Spoiler:

A-1 Skyraider
Stopping Power 10
Main Body 550 SDC
Cockpit 200 SDC
2 x Wings 200 SDC each
Tail Assembly 250 SDC
Engines 250 SDC

A-26 Invader
Stopping Power 15
Main Body 800 SDC
2 x Turrets 150 SDC each
2 xWings 300 SDC each
2 x Engines 300 SDC
Tail assembly 400 SDC

O-1 Birddog
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 100 SDC
2 x Wings 40 SDC each
Tail assembly 50 SDC

OV-10D Bronco
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 200 SDC
2 x Wings 80 SDC each
2 x Engines 75 SDC each
Tail assembly 100 SDC

OV-1 Mohawk
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 275 SDC
2 x Wings 110 SDC each
2 x Engines 100 SDC each
Tail Assembly 150 SDC

Tu-95
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 1000 SDC
2 x Wings 400 SDC each
4 x Engines 300 SDC each
Tail Assembly 275 SDC

C-130J/AC-130
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 750 SDC
2 x Wings 300 SDC each
4 x Engines 200 SDC each
Tail Assembly 250 SDC

AN-12
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 600 SDC
2 x Wings 350 SDC each
4 x Engines 250 SDC each
Tail Assembly 200 SDC

Jet Aircraft

Spoiler:

F-16C
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 350 SDC
2 x Wings 100 SDC each
1 x Engine 125 SDC
Tail Assembly 100 SDC

F-15E
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 400 SDC
2 x Wings 175 SDC each
2 x Engines 150 SDC each
Tail Assembly 200 SDC

F-22
Stopping Power 10
Main Body 1000 SDC
2 x Wings 400 SDC each
2 x Engines 200 SDC each
Tail Assembly 300 SDC

F-35C
Stopping Power 10
Main Body 900 SDC
2 x Wings 375 SDC each
1 x Engines 300 SDC
Tail Assembly 200 SDC

F-14D
Stopping Power 10
Main Body 1000 SDC
2 x Wings 400 SDC each
2 x Engines 200 SDC each
Tail Assembly 200 SDC

F-18
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 375 SDC
2 x Wings 150 SDC each
2 x Engines 150 SDC each
Tail Assembly 200 SDC

A-10
Stopping Power 20
(Special) Pilot’s Compartment SP = 50
Main Body 180 VDC
Cockpit 45 VDC
2 x Wings 40 VDC each
Tail Section 50 VDC
2 x Engines 50 VDC each
Weapon 20 VDC

C-17
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 1300 SDC
2 xWings 500 SDC each
4 x Engines 250 SDC each
Tail Assembly 400 SDC

SU-24MK
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 550 SDC
2 x Wings 225 SDC each
2 x Engines 200 SDC each
Tail Assembly 100 SDC

SU-27S
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 475 SDC
2 x Wings 200 SDC each
2 x Engines 175 SDC each
Tail Assembly 100 SDC

SU-30
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 500 SDC
2 x Wings 200 SDC each
2 x Engines 175 SDC each
Tail Assembly 100 SDC

SU-35S
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 500 SDC
2 x Wings 200 SDC each
2 x Engines 200 SDC each
Tail Assembly 100 SDC

SU-34
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 550 SDC
2 x Wings 225 SDC each
2 x Engines 200 SDC each
Tail Assembly 100 SDC

SU-25
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 375 SDC
2 x Wings 150 SDC each
2 x Engines 150 SDC each
Tail Assembly 75 SDC

Mig-17
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 250 SDC
2 x Wings 90 SDC each
2 x Engines 90 SDC each
Tail Assembly 75 SDC

Mig-25
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 525 SDC
2 x Wings 210 SDC each
2 x Engines 210 SDC each
Tail Assembly 250 SDC

Mig-31
Stopping Power 10
Main Body 1100 SDC
2 x Wings 450 SDC each
2 x Engines 400 SDC each
Tail Assembly 250 SDC

IL-76
Stopping Power 5
Main Body 1000 SDC
Cockpit 450 SDC
2 x Wings 450 SDC each
Tail section 450 SDC
4 x Engines 450 SDC each

[Jefffar]

Slade, nice attempt but you are stacking two damage soak attributes on top of each other which results in an over complication.


My suggestion (at least for an SDC universe).

All vehicles have SDC.

Al vehicles have an Armour Value.

Armour Value represents how much damage you need to do before you harm the SDC of the vehicle.

Armour Value is variable based on what part of the vehicle you are attacking (ie Tanks have strong armour at the front and weak at the back, tracks are more vulnerable than the hull, etc).


So for example

Modern Western Battle Tank

Component AV SDC
Main Body 400/200/100 800
Turret 400 600
Tracks (2) 100 200

AV on the main body is for the Front/Side/Top, Bottom and Back armour.

[slade the sniper]

Jeffar,

I see what you mean, and I like your system as well.

The biggest issue with that there is a big difference between whittling down SDC and how an object is destroyed...

When the armor is penetrated something other than SDC damage should occur.
I would suggest some sort of behind armor effects chart similar to the critical strike chart in the original Robotech...

I actually have the data to make up the vehicles stats in the method you propose actually, if you would like me to post those later on.

Currently working on the stats for the weapon systems...they are fairly standard in effect, but they might be considered "overpowered" in other Megaversal games because anti-tank weapons have to have at least a 25% chance of one-shot kills on a tank of the same class...

Anyway, is there other constructive criticism out there to make a set of widely agreed upon vehicle stats?

-STS

[jaymz]

For a high detail realistic combat stats write up, keep it up slade, I am liking this.

I may not use it for regular roleplaying but it's still good to have for other uses.

[slade the sniper]

Been doing some thinking about vehicle damage...

How does this sound:
A threshold damage that denotes how much damage has to be done in order to get inside a vehicle

If that threshold is met, then you roll on a table to see what happens. Sometimes it is a through and through shot, hits nothing, but damages the armor and lowers the threshold for the next shot (kinda common actually). Sometimes it hits a crewmember...sometimes it hits fuel or ammo...

That is rather more realistic way to handle vehicular damage IMO, having some first hand knowledge of this subject (as opposed to whittling down MDC or large amounts of SDC).

Would that meet with any interest.

-STS

[Zamion138]

Been doing some thinking about vehicle damage...

How does this sound:
A threshold damage that denotes how much damage has to be done in order to get inside a vehicle

If that threshold is met, then you roll on a table to see what happens. Sometimes it is a through and through shot, hits nothing, but damages the armor and lowers the threshold for the next shot (kinda common actually). Sometimes it hits a crewmember...sometimes it hits fuel or ammo...

That is rather more realistic way to handle vehicular damage IMO, having some first hand knowledge of this subject (as opposed to whittling down MDC or large amounts of SDC).

Would that meet with any interest.

-STS

The only issue with that is having to probaly have a seprate hit chart for most viechals. The likelyhood of hitting some one in a striker vs a un apc vs a wharthog ect.
Where the shot hit, is there any likelyhood it hit the pilot? A shot at the rear to me would be highly unlikely. It becomes simulation vs a game at a certain level of detail.
Would it be % based once the shot goes in or anouther strike roll? Any lowering of the dmg to the internal target...ie like 60sdc hit get droped by the thresh hold for the veichal armor then 20% to the internal target or 100% of the pass through?

Just some thoughts

[slade the sniper]

Been doing some thinking about vehicle damage...

How does this sound:
A threshold damage that denotes how much damage has to be done in order to get inside a vehicle

If that threshold is met, then you roll on a table to see what happens. Sometimes it is a through and through shot, hits nothing, but damages the armor and lowers the threshold for the next shot (kinda common actually). Sometimes it hits a crewmember...sometimes it hits fuel or ammo...

That is rather more realistic way to handle vehicular damage IMO, having some first hand knowledge of this subject (as opposed to whittling down MDC or large amounts of SDC).

Would that meet with any interest.

-STS

The only issue with that is having to probaly have a seprate hit chart for most viechals. The likelyhood of hitting some one in a striker vs a un apc vs a wharthog ect.
Where the shot hit, is there any likelyhood it hit the pilot? A shot at the rear to me would be highly unlikely. It becomes simulation vs a game at a certain level of detail.
Would it be % based once the shot goes in or anouther strike roll? Any lowering of the dmg to the internal target...ie like 60sdc hit get droped by the thresh hold for the veichal armor then 20% to the internal target or 100% of the pass through?

Just some thoughts

I think that I will do it by vehicle type or something similar OR have a list of effects with modifiers for weapon type and vehicle type... I don't know

-STS

[Zamion138]

Well i mean its labor, i think its cool what your doing dont get me wrong.
Not trying to be disheartening. If its fun or relaxing for you to do go for it.

[jaymz]

Definitely something I'll look at using if I am looking to do some more realistic combat

[slade the sniper]

Ok, back to my own personal thread

In going over the conversion process from Recon to Megaverse, I noticed that some benchmarks for NPCs would be in order. Going off the basic data from Rifts: Coalition War Campaign AND some stuff about normal people in Heroes Unlimited GMs Guide...I sort of cobbled together the following benchmarks for military rank and level equivalents...this is based on the US model, so ymmv.

Disclaimers first:

Spoiler:

1) Yes, there a difference between soft skills, grunts and SOF; but that is a function of MOS/OCC and the XP needed to progress NOT the level they are...thus a 6th level Pararescue is at the same level as the 6th level Crypto is at the same level as a 6th level Military Police...but what they are capable of is based on their OCC/MOS.
2) This is based on the idea that the PC/NPC is in a garrison based, peace time military...
3) The more combat time, the higher the level...say a bonus of +1 to +4 levels depending on the intensity and duration of the combat...I can see a +1 level for a year, +2 levels for two years, +3 levels for 4 years and a +4 levels for 16 years of constant warfare (which some people out there should be getting close to...)
4) Is it basic? Is it easy? Yes, and here is why...the US Military is based on an easy, basic system of training and experience in order to progress to the next rank (level), and if you don't progress, then you don't stay in. For those crusty types that are problem children and can't make or keep rank...they can get a bonus of +1 to +2 levels for every time they "should have" been promoted...but it is pretty much up or out...the days of 40 year old sergeants are pretty much gone (except for some National Guard types and prior service guys, but their levels progress much slower, so that it all evens out...

If you have something better...post it

Private E1, level 1, YAY, you finished your basic training
Private E2, level 2, Yay, you finished your advanced training and are showing up at your unit
Private First Class E3, level 3, you know what your unit is supposed to do and can actually do it
Specialist E4/Corporal E4, level 4, congratulations, you are considered to be fully trained at skill level 1 things.
Sergeant E5, level 5, you are now in charge of other soldiers.
Staff Sergeant E6, level 6, you are now a squad leader.
Sergeant First Class E7, level 7, Welcome to being a platoon sergeant, being mother and father to a bunch of kids and a mentor to your subordinate squad leaders
Master Sergeant/First Sergeant E8, level 8/9, you
Sergeant Major/Command Sergeant Major E9, level 9/10

Warrant Officer 1, level 6
Warrant Officer 2, level 7
Warrant Officer 3, level 8
Warrant Officer 4, level 9
Warrant Officer 5, level 10

Second Lieutenant O1, level 1
First Lieutenant O2, level 2
Captain O3, level 3
Major O4, level 4
Lieutenant Colonel O5, level 5
Colonel O6, level 6
Brigadier General O7, level 7
Major General O8, level 8
Lieutenant General O9, level 9
General O10, level 10

-STS

[jaymz]

Looks good at first blush

[Beatmeclever]

Pay Skill
Grade Level
E-1 30%
E-2 35%
E-3 45%
E-4 55%
E-5 60%
E-6 65%
E-7 75%
E-8 85%
E-9 98%

W-1 60%
W-2 65%
W-3 75%
W-4 85%
W-5 90%

O-1 35%
O-2 40%
O-3 45%
O-4 50%
O-5 55%
O-6 60%
O-7 65%
O-8 75%
O-9 85%
O-10 98%

To understand that, it works like this (taken from my RECON house rules):
Most characters start at the lowest pay grade (rank) and work their way up through their performance, dedication, and commitment to duty. Lower ranking characters usually answer to the Non-Commissioned Officer (E-4 through E-9) who, in turn, answers to his or her commanding officer, who also answers to his higher up.

While officers are as varied as people, bad officers usually don’t last long, either being demoted or shuffled off somewhere they can’t do much damage. Bad combat officers tend to have a higher than normal rate of dangerous and sometimes fatal accidents.

The skill level listed with each pay grade indicates the minimum required level the character should have achieved in his Military Etiquette skill in order to hold that rank. During peacetime, this is achieved through performance evaluations and tests. This is not always the case during times of war, as the military suffers loses, the lower ranks are brevetted into the openings in the chain of command. However, most of the time, gaining the next pay grade is done by the book and requires performance evaluations and testing to advance