Specialized HtH styles needed

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I'm still in the process of learning/reading my new AtB2 book and I just saw HtH Bull Fighting. While this is a pretty cool idea and much needed for those wishing to play characters with Biped partial/none I feel it leaves some things out.

1. As written it only seems of benefit to characters with some type of head weapon (horn, antler,tusk. etc).
What could the rules/special attacks be for the non head weapon mutants who come out with Biped partial/none? I can think of a whole slew of 4 footed animals who could use a special combat technique that didn't revolve around headbutting (Big Cats, Bears, Horses, Rodents, Members of the weasel family, Dogs, Reptiles and Amphibians ...anything without a head mounted natural weapon).

2. Does anyone have rules for attacks using horns/antlers/tusks with fully bipedal character?
I'm currently playing a mutant Ibex (a member of the goat family with huge sweeping horns http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bouqu ... %C3%A9.jpg) with full biped, full hands and Hth Basic. Other than a headbutt (a pitiful 1d8 damage) I'm not sure how to utilize his natural weaponry. The HtH Bullfighting has some ideas, but they're a specialized fighting form. How would you go about hybridizing these?

3. Have any of you developed your own HtH styles to fully make use of your characters natural abilities?
If so I'd love to see what you've come up with.

[Pepsi Jedi]

With out coming right out and saying it, ATB is 90-95% based around characters having at least hands and biped full. You can get away with partial, but you're expected to 'stand up and fight' when the time comes. It's not as good, but that's what you get for not spending the extra 5 bio-e in creation. lol

The HTH Bull fighting was added in for those folks who purposefully chose more animal like critters so they wern't stuck with "No" hand to hand. So they can get some bonous and some moves. You can still head butt even if you don't have horns, you just don't do horn damage. You can slam into them and body block and stuff. Ramming with a shoulder or your body.

2) The horns you have should be purchased with bio e points and have corresponding damage for them. If they don't have those exact horns, you can look at other horned creatures and gauge your damage from them. The 'advantages' are listed off before the animal section, in addition to each animal, so you can easily extrapulate the damage for Ibex horns from there.

3) I once wrote up a 'Cat fight fu' for our group when a guy went full psionic, and stuff but with no biped or hands with a bobcat, but I've lost it.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

With out coming right out and saying it, ATB is 90-95% based around characters having at least hands and biped full. You can get away with partial, but you're expected to 'stand up and fight' when the time comes. It's not as good, but that's what you get for not spending the extra 5 bio-e in creation. lol

The HTH Bull fighting was added in for those folks who purposefully chose more animal like critters so they wern't stuck with "No" hand to hand. So they can get some bonous and some moves. You can still head butt even if you don't have horns, you just don't do horn damage. You can slam into them and body block and stuff. Ramming with a shoulder or your body.

2) The horns you have should be purchased with bio e points and have corresponding damage for them. If they don't have those exact horns, you can look at other horned creatures and gauge your damage from them. The 'advantages' are listed off before the animal section, in addition to each animal, so you can easily extrapulate the damage for Ibex horns from there.

3) I once wrote up a 'Cat fight fu' for our group when a guy went full psionic, and stuff but with no biped or hands with a bobcat, but I've lost it.

1. Thanks for the reply Pepsi Jedi. I understand where you're coming from about how the game was designed. Before getting AtB2 I never considered a character with anything less than full hands and biped. I also get what you're saying about headbutting and ramming without doing horn damage. It just seemed to me that all the special attacks were HEAVILY geared toward PC's with head weapons. I just felt it left everyone else short changed.

2. The horns were purchased with Bio-e. The crux is that he was written up under TMNT rules and the only listing was for a normal domesticated goat 1d8 horns. Given the size of the horns (check the picture if you're unsure) can you extrapolate an appropriate damage for me? Please? I'm good at idea, but suck at fleshing them out myself.

3. Cat fight fu. Sounds like an impromptu special at the Chinese Buffet lol. I'd have liked to have seen that. [Does anyone else have a home brewed HtH style geared toward your natural abilities]. I was looking over some PC's I inherited from my old Gm. A mutant elephant with HtH Martial Arts in parenthesis it says, "Nasal Kwan Do". I have no details on what it would be or how it would work, but it made me laugh to read it.

While I appreciate and respect Pepsi Jedi's response, I eagerly look forward to the thoughts and opinions of the rest of you. Please don't let the thread perish after 1 reply.

[glitterboy2098]

i'd go with sheep for the horns.. 2D4 damage. a bighorn sheep does 2D6.
but remember you get to add your PS bonus to that.


i do wish there was a way to easily define non-humanoid characters. it gets especially hard when you have a species that starts with full biped. like the avians and the Theropod's from mesozoic land, which are full biped to start, making it impossible to easily show the difference from a humanoid form and their natural form. i ran into that myself when i rolled up my Trex academic.. i wanted a character who looked like the original dinosaur, and used psionics to handle speech and hands. was able to build they too. but figuring out his size was really hard, because the stats were written from a humanoid form assumption, and didn't include things like tails or horizontal bodyplan. i had to guesstimate his height and length based on the rolls for height in the book, and a rough idea of how much of that would be leg and how much would be body+head, with the latter being used to guess a tail length.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Which book Glitterboy? TMNT or AtB2 or even one of the AtB1 supplements that have a sheep like critter in them? Or heck, should I use the tables here on the forums and just track down an appropriately horned quadruped and use those stats.

Ps bonus..oh yes...(munchkin giggle) I know about adding the Ps bonus.

Yeah, that can be tricky figuring out sizes on the original animal form when all you've done is go up or down in Size levels. Maybe rolling on the Long build and transferring that to horizontal length? I'm not sure I've never had a physically unmutated PC. Start a new thread with that as the topic. See what some of our resident geniuses can come up with.

[glitterboy2098]

i was looking at ATB2 book. listed the damage for you. it has never scaled with size.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Book says horns start at about 1D6, and rarely go above 3D6.

Those horns are pretty impressive. I'd say 2D8 to maybe 2D10. I'd personally say 2D8. Get some use out of the 8 sided die, but if you want um a touch buffer, 2D10 won't break the bank.

[Pepsi Jedi]

As a side note, I cannot suggest the After the Bomb2 book enough. It's one of my top five Palladium books ever. I've got it on PDF (( LEGAL!)) And 4 Physical copies. One of which signed by Erik himself. I've purposefully bought extra's for when I wear through my first. I love it that much. Good good good stuff. If anything in palladium's a "Must buy" it's that.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

2d10!! Wooot!! I hereby decree that the ruling by Pepsi Jedi for 2d10 horns shall be accepted as standard and appropriate.

As for AtB2 I've got to say that I too am quite impressed with everything I've read so far. My biggest gripe with AtB1 was simply the typeface used. I couldn't bear to look at it, and as such missed out on whatever wonderful info was contained therein for the longest time. I am glad to say that I got over it.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well the second one is about 5 times as long and was much more detailed. It was what had meant to be TMNT & MORE strangeness, but then the loss of license and stuff, it was retolled into the 'big' After the Bomb book. While I miss the turtles, the book is awesome.

Might ask for another one in the grab bags this year.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Now to figure out how to move about in TMNT society (present day setting with humans dominant with mutated animals being a growing minority) without constantly having to duck or worry about knocking things about when I turn my head. Anyone played a mutant with a large set of horns/antlers (moose, elk, caribou, deer, long horn cattle..others).

[Pepsi Jedi]

Now to figure out how to move about in TMNT society (present day setting with humans dominant with mutated animals being a growing minority) without constantly having to duck or worry about knocking things about when I turn my head. Anyone played a mutant with a large set of horns/antlers (moose, elk, caribou, deer, long horn cattle..others).

This is actually covered in the new book too as a vestigial disadvantage. You get 'bonous' bio-e points for such a thing. 10 bioe refund sounds about right for such.

Book says -30 to acrobatics, and gymnastics, -10 to climb and keep balance.

If you do not WANT these penalties, then don't take the disadvantage. (( that would mean your mutant has big ol horns, but has learned to live with out getting them caught on stuff.))

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=46431

I posted this quite some time ago. Although your character probably doesn't have antlers, I think antlers give characters a huge advantage in hand to hand combat.

Bull Fighting is a good skill, except most bulls don't have antlers that can be used to block, entangle and throw. For any character with antlers I'd in the following to any hand to hand combat that the character selects. I'd add in Antler Block at level 2 (done in place of a parry, not very wise against firearms but very effective in hand to hand combat). Antler Entangle (the victim is trapped by the antlers and needs to waste an attack with a dodge attempt to get free) at level 4 and at level 6 Antler Throw (a Body Flip/Throw with the antlers, only useful after a successful Antler Entangle. Regular bonuses to parry, strike and body/flip throw apply to the antler move set.

Mephisto,
Those are SuhhhWeeeet! I like the additions of Antler/horn related attacks it makes the combat more personal to the character. Does my character have antlers? No, they're considered horns (see image..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bouqu ... %C3%A9.jpg ).

I can sort of picture an antler block (GM, "wait..you're blocking his attack with your head? Okay").

The antler entagle (for deer/elk type antlers) is really easy to picture. For my guy (and those with curly, long, or broad antlers/horns) I think it would be more of either a grab/lift (imagine picking someone up by their armpits) or a pin up against something (moose, ram, long horn bull).

The antler throw, oh absolutely a cool move. But can you imagine the back/neck strength it'd take to toss someone using your head/neck as the pivot point. lol

All in all a very cool idea and I appreciate your input sir. Might I also add that your revisionary work on Mutant Animals is inspiring. I eagerly await the completion of the Transdimensional animals. The TMNT characters I agree the licenses are gone. I feel that everything else in the book is Palladium original material and therefore fit for revision. You, Rathorc, and Duck-foot are truly Gentleman(or Ladies) and Scholars.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Just remember, they stand out... like a nose or a lip wring on some guy being annoying at the bar.. big ol horns like that are going to be targeted for hand holds and such alot of the time. You reach out and grab one horn then persist on slamming your fist into the guys face or stabbing him in the stomach. lol

You can bet they'll be lasso'd or entangled with chain weapons or ... god. Nets. Can you imagine someone throwing a net and getting it tangled in huge horns like that?

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Those horns would cause nasty cuts due to gore attacks as well. If I ever get around to making a Bighorn Sheep character (not the purebreed version) a ramming headbutt attack will be included, because males vie for females by ramming rituals, and the sound can be heard over 4 kilometers away.

I think a gore attack would be pretty tricky. If you watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-wCX5R8NXM you'll see that the placement of the horn tips (on a quadrupedal animal) make goring almost (but not totally) impossible. On a bipedal PC I have trouble envisioning how to snag someone with the horn tips unless it was some complicated back flip crossed with a reverse headbutt type maneuver (lol) But a ramming headbutt, oh to be sure! For the size of the horns on this bugger I'm using Pepsi Jedi's ruling from above of 2d10 damage+PS modifier.

A Big Horn Sheep would be a champion headbutter. The only thing I could think of that would top one would be a Pachycephalosaurus!!

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Just remember, they stand out... like a nose or a lip wring on some guy being annoying at the bar.. big ol horns like that are going to be targeted for hand holds and such alot of the time. You reach out and grab one horn then persist on slamming your fist into the guys face or stabbing him in the stomach. lol

You can bet they'll be lasso'd or entangled with chain weapons or ... god. Nets. Can you imagine someone throwing a net and getting it tangled in huge horns like that?

IF they're close enough to grab and punch/stab me. They're close enough to be punched/stabbed!!

Yeah, I can see them being a target for entanglement. I plan on treating the same way that DC did every time WW lasso'd someone. Grab the rope/chain and yank the attacker toward me. As far as netting..Well I'm glad my GM hasn't caught on to that idea yet.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Just remember, they stand out... like a nose or a lip wring on some guy being annoying at the bar.. big ol horns like that are going to be targeted for hand holds and such alot of the time. You reach out and grab one horn then persist on slamming your fist into the guys face or stabbing him in the stomach. lol

You can bet they'll be lasso'd or entangled with chain weapons or ... god. Nets. Can you imagine someone throwing a net and getting it tangled in huge horns like that?

IF they're close enough to grab and punch/stab me. They're close enough to be punched/stabbed!!

Yeah, I can see them being a target for entanglement. I plan on treating the same way that DC did every time WW lasso'd someone. Grab the rope/chain and yank the attacker toward me. As far as netting..Well I'm glad my GM hasn't caught on to that idea yet.

What cha gonna do if someone grabs them from behind like handle bars on some motorcycle and slams his feet into your spine to ride ya around. Or stear you all ove and run you into things? lol

Not trying to be a downer. They're cool. Just realize they can be used against you. Something big and easily grabbed/snared can be bad as well.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

What cha gonna do if someone grabs them from behind like handle bars on some motorcycle and slams his feet into your spine to ride ya around. Or stear you all ove and run you into things? lol

Not trying to be a downer. They're cool. Just realize they can be used against you. Something big and easily grabbed/snared can be bad as well.

LOL!! Well in that case I could a. roll to shake them off (not sure how PS rolls work), Do a body throw/flip and try to fling them forward (similar to the Antler throw listed above but going forward instead of back), A reverse headbutt/gore maneuver, I could try kicking behind me, OR since it is effectively a sneak attack and does 2x damage I could pray that the roll to strike was under my A.R. for the class 4 hard I'm wearing and take the hit.

If they tried to steer me around and run me into things? Well after I was done laughing at such a zany and clever move. I guess I'd have to plant my hooves and make a PS roll to avoid being crashed into something. If I failed, well then I'd stretch my arms out and hope to absorb some of the damage with a modified roll with punch.

The attacks you listed make me laugh and wonder if someone has the creativity to come up with HtH Playground Bully. Which I've thought for years would make a great pro-wrestler. Noogies, Wedgies, Why Are You Hitting Yourself's, Wet Willies (a very disorienting move. player must save vs gross out or lose 1 attack and is -2 to strike, parry, dodge until ear is cleaned out), Indian Burns...etc