RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:dark brandon wrote:RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:i just think its funny that in chaos earth you can learn to kill people as a hobby.
Guns?
learning to shoot guns =/= learning to kill people
I use my guns to tickle babies.
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RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:dark brandon wrote:RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:i just think its funny that in chaos earth you can learn to kill people as a hobby.
Guns?
learning to shoot guns =/= learning to kill people
dark brandon wrote:RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:dark brandon wrote:RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:i just think its funny that in chaos earth you can learn to kill people as a hobby.
Guns?
learning to shoot guns =/= learning to kill people
I use my guns to tickle babies.
RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:dark brandon wrote:RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:dark brandon wrote:RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:i just think its funny that in chaos earth you can learn to kill people as a hobby.
Guns?
learning to shoot guns =/= learning to kill people
I use my guns to tickle babies.
dude that's a W.P. sharpshooting trick. you don't have that WP. stop cheating
tmikesecrist3 wrote:I have to say some things have made since I might have said that a high ranking Martel artist would have the Equivalent to h2h Martel arts... but then that might be splitting hairs are getting more into meninta then I should.. but any way the real reason I was righting this... Is how to handle some one like an SCAer? the other though is what about some kind of mage smith... would I use the Scathach Druid in Rifts England, as a base if so what changes should I make.....
before I get blasted on this.... No I don't think you will find on on every street corner.... But just like to day Hand forged swords would find a netch market among the SCA and other Reinacters
tmikesecrist3 wrote:One other point what about the person whom stops practicing hand to hand skills... Like the ex solder whom is now working as a banker
Jason Richards wrote:I see that this topic has cropped up again, so allow me to reiterate my point (though you should certainly read the entirety of the thread and my responses). Let me just quote some passages from the text. Before I do, however, let me remind everyone that my position here is not based on what YOU feel is right, or how YOU should play your game, or even what I feel is right or how I run my game, but only what is CANON in Chaos Earth as it stands right now.
First, the idea that the average citizen in Chaos Earth is relatively unskilled when it comes to "every day" sorts of skills, which have been replaced by technology and the service industry. This is very important to understanding CE as it is written.p. 50
Social-Economic Note: One of modern society's weaknesses, especially nearly 100 years in the future, it that the average person has limited knowledge and skill in what was once considered common skills or even "arts and crafts." Consequently, a tiny percentage of people possess basic carpentry, building or survival skills, or know how to farm, hunt, sew, knit, weave, preserve food or even cook. Thus, even the most basic skills necessary in a wilderness or apocalyptic situation must be rediscovered and taught. This is a contributing reason why many cities experience immediate panic as people used to restaurants and skilled professionals to provide their basic, day to day needs, are suddenly on their own. Without they they are lost and panic stricken.
This is highly important to understanding the setting. Whether you agree or not, the canon is that people of the Golden Age become fairly helpless without their modern conveniences. This isn't really that much of a stretch, if you think about it. We all like to consider ourselves equipped for a world without these things, but really think about it. Think about people you work with, or go to school with, or are in your family, or even game with. Don't you know a lot of people that, if only the power and water were to be shut down, wouldn't really know what to do? If you dropped them in the middle of Yellowstone with only the clothes on their back, how would they fare? Sure in Chaos Earth there is scavenging to be had, but that dries up pretty quickly once the race is on for everyone to grab what they can. Just something to think about while we consider what the canon tells us that Golden Agers do with their time and energy.
On to hand to hand skills, in particular, the following illustrates that we must make a distinction between what is generally "a martial art" and what is defined as "Hand to Hand: Martial Arts" (or Expert or Assassin or whatever).
First, it has been suggested that one can learn Hand to Hand: Martial Arts by attending classes in a gym, dojo, and by being practiced for sport/fitness/personal interest/self defense. According to the canon, those practices do not constitute HtH:MA, but Hand to Hand: Basic.p. 125
Hand to Hand: Basic: Provides elementary fighting techniques and methods of attack and self-defense as taught in military basic training or in self defense classes.
p. 141
Hand to Hand: Basic
This is an elementary form of hand to hand combat training. Though it hardly stacks up against some of the more advanced forms of fighting, one who has trained in Hand to Hand: Basic still fights with combat skill compared to the simple, everyday folk who populate Chaos Earth.
The descriptions seem a little all over the place here, but one thing is clear: Hand to Hand: Basic is a very basic self defense, and that the average person in Chaos Earth doesn't even possess this level of combat ability.
Now, what does the text say about Hand to Hand: Expert?p. 125
Hand to Hand: Expert: An advanced form of self-defense and unarmed combat taught to professionals and the military elite.
p. 142
Hand to Hand: Expert
This fighting style is often taught to soldiers, bodyguards, thieves, and anybody else who will be expected to live by violence. While it lacks the mastery of the Martial Arts, an Expert fighter knows how to scrap quickly and efficiently. At high levels, especially, those with this skill can often hold their own against dedicated masters of the martial artists.
So, HtH:E, which is one level "above" Basic and "below" Martial Arts, is for professionals and the military elite, and people who live by violence. This is not simply something learned in the corner gym, but for people who fight for a living (soldiers, military elite, bodyguards, thieves, etc.).
Now we're up to Hand to Hand: Martial Artsp. 126
Hand to Hand: Martial Arts: This is some form of general oriental fighting skill (karate, kung-fu, etc.) that teaches advanced hand to hand combat.
p. 142
Hand to Hand: Martial Arts
Considered to be a generic form of martial arts, taking techniques from many sources.
HtH:MA is an advanced hand to hand skill, in excess of that shown by Expert (though the description does little to talk it up). It takes more time and effort to learn than does Expert (because it counts as more skill selections), which is a professional level of training. Those possessing this skill are trained in combat at the very highest levels, short of the incredibly rare and specialized skills such as Assassin and Commando.
So, in summary, when you take the text and really look at it, what you have is that while a large number of people practice some sort of self defense, or a "martial art" as a sport or hobby, that would be classified as Hand to Hand: Basic. We also know that HtH: Basic is a level of training that is beyond everyday people. Finally, we know that very few people on Chaos Earth (or our Earth, by the books) know Hand to Hand: Martial Arts, which is combat skill at or beyond a professional level.
Lt Gargoyle wrote:
I think the way the that it was explained should have the hand to hand martial arts simply reclassified as master. As the hand to hand is all basically martial arts here anyways. so if we just simply say the guy with hand to hand basic just goes to the gym/dojo a couple times a week, he is better then the guy who doesn't. but the guy who trains a couple times aweek and goes out like the cops or basic soldier and sometimes has to use it then he is the expert. but the guy who gets up and practices everyday religiously and goes out into harms way is a master martial artist. A professional killer. heck we do not even need assassin anymore. or commando. since they could easily be put back into the master classification.
My groups never really got into the N&SS so i cannot say it is better or not. but i will pull my copy out and read through it again.
Jason Richards wrote:p. 50
Social-Economic Note: One of modern society's weaknesses, especially nearly 100 years in the future, it that the average person has limited knowledge and skill in what was once considered common skills or even "arts and crafts." Consequently, a tiny percentage of people possess basic carpentry, building or survival skills, or know how to farm, hunt, sew, knit, weave, preserve food or even cook. Thus, even the most basic skills necessary in a wilderness or apocalyptic situation must be rediscovered and taught. This is a contributing reason why many cities experience immediate panic as people used to restaurants and skilled professionals to provide their basic, day to day needs, are suddenly on their own. Without they they are lost and panic stricken.
This is highly important to understanding the setting. Whether you agree or not, the canon is that people of the Golden Age become fairly helpless without their modern conveniences. This isn't really that much of a stretch, if you think about it. We all like to consider ourselves equipped for a world without these things, but really think about it. Think about people you work with, or go to school with, or are in your family, or even game with. Don't you know a lot of people that, if only the power and water were to be shut down, wouldn't really know what to do? If you dropped them in the middle of Yellowstone with only the clothes on their back, how would they fare? Sure in Chaos Earth there is scavenging to be had, but that dries up pretty quickly once the race is on for everyone to grab what they can. Just something to think about while we consider what the canon tells us that Golden Agers do with their time and energy.
barna10 wrote:Jason Richards wrote:p. 50
Social-Economic Note: One of modern society's weaknesses, especially nearly 100 years in the future, it that the average person has limited knowledge and skill in what was once considered common skills or even "arts and crafts." Consequently, a tiny percentage of people possess basic carpentry, building or survival skills, or know how to farm, hunt, sew, knit, weave, preserve food or even cook. Thus, even the most basic skills necessary in a wilderness or apocalyptic situation must be rediscovered and taught. This is a contributing reason why many cities experience immediate panic as people used to restaurants and skilled professionals to provide their basic, day to day needs, are suddenly on their own. Without they they are lost and panic stricken.
This is highly important to understanding the setting. Whether you agree or not, the canon is that people of the Golden Age become fairly helpless without their modern conveniences. This isn't really that much of a stretch, if you think about it. We all like to consider ourselves equipped for a world without these things, but really think about it. Think about people you work with, or go to school with, or are in your family, or even game with. Don't you know a lot of people that, if only the power and water were to be shut down, wouldn't really know what to do? If you dropped them in the middle of Yellowstone with only the clothes on their back, how would they fare? Sure in Chaos Earth there is scavenging to be had, but that dries up pretty quickly once the race is on for everyone to grab what they can. Just something to think about while we consider what the canon tells us that Golden Agers do with their time and energy.
I know this may be seen as beating a dead horse, but...
How is the golden Age any different than today. I'd argue that most people in the USA couldn't survive a week without electricity, grocery stores, T.V., internet, etc., and yet there are still those that would be able to. Just because a majority of a population have forgotten skills does not mean everyone has forgotten those skills. The section you quoted even stated that the "average" person has forgotten these skills, not that everyone has forgotten them. It goes on to state that a "tiny percentage" possess these skills, but that's still millions of people. If we assume normal growth rates, the population of the Earth is probably around 9 billion. Even 1% of that would be 90 million people. I think within 90 million people there is plenty of room for a PC that wants to possess an uncommon, or even rare, skill.
Lt Gargoyle wrote: This is true. Infact as i have gotten more involved in the SCA, and I have found more of those people building things on a very basic level. I even watched a couple teaching how to weave cloth from threads. It was interesting. My favorites were the guys who create the siege weapons such as catapults and ballista’s. And if they had more free time to do so, i think they could have it down to an art.
But I think the PC's would be those who chose these rare skills. This would explain why they are still alive. They know how to do those things so many others did not want to learn. I also think they would begin to teach others as time passed, so that their groups have a better chance to survive.
barna10 wrote:Lt Gargoyle wrote: This is true. Infact as i have gotten more involved in the SCA, and I have found more of those people building things on a very basic level. I even watched a couple teaching how to weave cloth from threads. It was interesting. My favorites were the guys who create the siege weapons such as catapults and ballista’s. And if they had more free time to do so, i think they could have it down to an art.
But I think the PC's would be those who chose these rare skills. This would explain why they are still alive. They know how to do those things so many others did not want to learn. I also think they would begin to teach others as time passed, so that their groups have a better chance to survive.
While I agree with you, I'm afraid most of our fellow gamers, especially Palladium ones, would not agree with us. To them, PCs are average Joe's that must follow canon, while NPCs are the exceptions to the rules. For instance, there are TONS of Rifts NPCs that break the rules: characters with multiple classes, stats too high for their race, master psionics and spells, rare magics that no one should possess, etc. If you even mention creating such a character as a PC you are labeled a power-gamer, munchkin, or worse! So, you want to create a Chaos Earth character that is a SCA enthusiast and therefore more capable of surviving the new dark ages hell hole he finds himself in? Poo poo on you you munchkin!
Even the average gamer, if translated into game stats, would probably be considered a munchkin character for most games. I was in the military and gamed with many guys that couldn't recreate themselves by the rules. Officers that had been through Ranger school, Special Forces school, Air Assault, Air Borne, Sniper Qualified, and had Bachelor's, Master's, or even Ph. D.'s, they couldn't even get close to representing themselves in game stats. Don't even get me started on the one guy that had been a champion kick boxer before joining the Army, had a Bachelor's, had been a Ranger, did 2 tours with Special Forces, was now a Captain, and was a certified EMT. MUNCHKIN! REAL LIFE IS TOO MUNCHKIN FOR GAMING!
Let's see, there's also the Olympic Gymnast that was a second degree black belt and held a Master's degree. Another munchkin character, er, I mean person!
Hell, I have trouble putting myself in game stats and I'm nowhere near as skilled or experienced as these other guys I've gamed with!
In short, you'll never get through the stubborn, thick-skulled gamers who think your PC should be an average Joe. IMO opinion it's because they have never done anything in their own life and have trouble believing that others have done anything interesting besides go to High School, or maybe college. Real life is pretty interesting fellas! Get out of your mom's basement and live it!
Lt Gargoyle wrote:Yea it sucks, but it is the way it is. the only reason I made the character attributes max out at 24 was to make sure my players rounded their skill selection fully out. I think for a character to be rounded out they need more then just physical skills. those character seem to die in my games quickly. But that does not mean you cannot take Martial arts, boxing and kick boxing. In fact I have been doing martial arts since i was a kid and just started learning boxing and mixed it up because some of the guys in my dojo were MMA fighters.
So yes they have not got it right. Some NPC should be total bad asses. but the players should be able to get there too. Not at first level grant you, but as they work thier way up there. And yea those who have any chance to survive the Comming of the Rifts is gonna be that odd ball person who's friends laughed at for being wierd and studying martial arts, shooting, survival and Midieavl stuff. These are the guys and gals who will have the know how. the other sheep will fall to the wolves if they cannot find them.
barna10 wrote:Lt Gargoyle wrote:Yea it sucks, but it is the way it is. the only reason I made the character attributes max out at 24 was to make sure my players rounded their skill selection fully out. I think for a character to be rounded out they need more then just physical skills. those character seem to die in my games quickly. But that does not mean you cannot take Martial arts, boxing and kick boxing. In fact I have been doing martial arts since i was a kid and just started learning boxing and mixed it up because some of the guys in my dojo were MMA fighters.
So yes they have not got it right. Some NPC should be total bad asses. but the players should be able to get there too. Not at first level grant you, but as they work thier way up there. And yea those who have any chance to survive the Comming of the Rifts is gonna be that odd ball person who's friends laughed at for being wierd and studying martial arts, shooting, survival and Midieavl stuff. These are the guys and gals who will have the know how. the other sheep will fall to the wolves if they cannot find them.
You are such a munchkin. You can't take boxing! Lol
I don't really know which would remain around and which would have faded away by that point.Young Freud wrote:I guess what I'm saying is that I would like to see a list of available martial arts in the Golden Age, which may be asking a lot.
Tor wrote:I don't really know which would remain around and which would have faded away by that point.Young Freud wrote:I guess what I'm saying is that I would like to see a list of available martial arts in the Golden Age, which may be asking a lot.
N&SS does list which arts are allowable in Rifts because they were popular enough to have survived the Cataclysm, so at minimum you could use the 4 agent skills, Aikido, Jujutsu, Tai Chi Chuan and Tae Kwon Do.
With just Aikido and Tai Chi you can pretty much break the world with your chi, so...
As for villainous Snake Style or Tien Hsueh, they're probably the cabal who planned the Cataclysm, the Rifts equivalent of Night Priests.
barna10 wrote:Also, there's no reason a NEW school can't find it's birth AFTER the coming of the Rifts.
taalismn wrote:Rimmerdal wrote:mmm Rifts street meat..
Flooper. Fried, broiled, or chipped.
It's like eating Chinese.
FLOOP! And you're hungry again.
Rimmerdal wrote:Anyone consider a N&SS CE earth setting as a game?
barna10 wrote:Rimmerdal wrote:Anyone consider a N&SS CE earth setting as a game?
This wouldn't work since there are no martial arts in CE
taalismn wrote:Rimmerdal wrote:mmm Rifts street meat..
Flooper. Fried, broiled, or chipped.
It's like eating Chinese.
FLOOP! And you're hungry again.
Rimmerdal wrote:barna10 wrote:Rimmerdal wrote:Anyone consider a N&SS CE earth setting as a game?
This wouldn't work since there are no martial arts in CE
I could see martial skills suddenly becoming able to certain MA special powers as a result of all the ley line activity..might be a good means to balance the powers and give the humans an edge. One would need be selective..and could include certain N&SS enemies as well. Can see a Ninja clan starting to try and take over portions of NA or Japan, Samurai gangs establishing turf and even a few ancient and immortal types joining one faction or another to spice it up..provided the GM was comfortable with his N&SS material.
Tor wrote:N&SS indicated some like Tai Chi and Judo and Aikido would survive the Rifts.
Kagashi wrote:Personally, I see no reason why MA from Ninjas and Superspies and Mystic China wouldnt be available to anybody in the Golden Age. Not everybody would pursue it (Id bet there would be quite a few lazy "normal" people would wouldnt have H2H at all), but it would be commercialized and available.
The key word would be "commercialized". This means you can go to that Ninjitsu school every Tuesday and Thursday and test for your next belt every 3 months as long as you memorized the next kata. Sure, you will gain some fighting experience and some useful techniques, but in no way you would be true martial artist. This would be the same as those kids who go train for a few weeks at some MMA camp and think they are now a "UFC Fighter". I would consider what I just explained as "H2H Martial Arts" at best, perhaps only Expert.
In order to benefit from the full range of powers and bonuses from MC or N&SS, I say you must be a Worldly or Dedicated Martial Artist OCC from N&SS or one of the Martial Arts OCCs from Mystic China. And only after the Great Cataclysm occurred, would your chi powers start to manifest into MDC effects. This would be the only way I would allow chi powers in a CE game...to the people who devote their lives to live and breathe the martial art on a day to day basis. Bruce Lee, Georges St. Pierre, Bas Rutten...these guys who do their MA every day would be good examples. There would be no way a Glitter Boy Pilot could devote his time to NEMA tactics, piloting a robot, learning weapon systems, and so on...AND devote the time needed to hone his martial arts skills. There just isnt enough time in a day.
Alternately, rather than use the level enhancements of H2H Martial Arts for the first category, Id consider letting somebody use the level advancements from a specific martial art, but with some limitations:
- It would be the level advancements only, no skills, starting powers, SDC/attribute bonuses, or any other aspects of the chosen martial art.
- Cannot be an exclusive martial art. Those are reserved for Dedicated Martial Artists. Sorry, pick something else.
- Any powers gained in the level advancement will NEVER do MD level attack, or provide MDC level protection. Sorry, but you are simply not dedicated enough to hone your chi to where it needs to be.
This will represent the familiarity of a specific martial art, if the H2H MA is too generic for you, but at the same time represent the fact that the character has devoted time and attention to other skills and aspects of his/her life as well.
Basically, if you want to be a dedicated martial artist and take all the cool MD chi powers involved, you might start the game with a pair of 4 ounce MMA gloves and a pair of boxing trunks while the rest of the group is clad in MDC power and body armors, and wielding MD plasma cannons.