My solutuion to the Cyborg vs. Phase Beamers

[Scorpion Leader]

I have to agree, otherwise, whats to stop someone from gathering an army and stomping the central alliance.

Thank you for your support.

[Scorpion Leader]

I would say it has to do with the percentage of living tissue is actually in the cyborg. Which in most cases, to prevent my PCs from being insta-gibbed. I will rule that the Phase Beamer does MDC to the cyborg's armor. That is how my game will be run. Do what you will in yours

Thank you for supporting this again my friend.

[Scorpion Leader]

The symbosis between man and machine. The brains electrical currents have direct control of the cyborg body. In essence making an extension of the character. A hard situation to work for or against when it comes to phase beamers. I stand by my choice, if only for the sake of the game's balance.

Cudos to you and Thank you again Chronicle for supoprting my original post.

-Scorpion Leader

[drewkitty ~..~]

A) If we follow as it says Cyborgs are now considered MDC beings, Phase Weapons do MD damage anyway (and I said should be delt with in this manner previously).

C) Phase Weapons do not under usual circumstances do Damage Direct to Hit Points as both sides of the issue like to claim and use as a basis for their arguement(s).

A) you are not correct in what you said, in that you were so incompleat in what you said to make what you said incorrect. If you had said that Phase Beamers do MD to MDC beings and MDC force fields, you would of been correct.

A.1)

Damage: 3d6 SD to humans and other SDC creatures: 4d6 MD to MDC beings and ff. It does not damage armor of any kind!

C) When the being has No SDC, then Phase beamers do direct to HP damage. Things w/HP & w/o SDC: Vamps, (some) were-people, beings who's SDC has been damaged through, PF1 chars and FCB.

[Nightmask]

So I gather no one's going to speak to why cyborgs are so special that unlike any other SDC creature (which IS what the organic parts are) their essential parts aren't treated as such? In a way that makes sense mind you.

Normal human in power armor or regular armor? ZERO protection from phase weapons, which will kill him a lot faster than someone having to go through his MDC armor to kill him yet perfectly acceptable.

Guy with just some cybernetics installed? Same deal, guy's just as vulnerable (moreso since he's going to have less SDC/HP in having less body parts after a point).

Phase Med-Kit? Item built for healing, intentionally designed to NOT harm someone and be able to detect cybernetics connected to organic tissue and phase them safely. Phase weapon? Something designed to KILL, something that will be designed to NOT consider tissue hooked up to a machine. Items with totally different design purposes. Also note that Phase Weapons are pretty worthless against full-sized Zentraedi given they have vast amounts of SDC/HP and can soak MD attacks surprisingly well as a result.

Guy in a space ship without force shields? Again totally helpless against phase weapons, in fact the books note how attractive phase weapons are to pirates for just that reason. Ease of capturing a target intact by directly targeting and killing the crew (and those phase weapons for ships do a lot more damage than man-portable weapons making it an easy kill for any ship without an active Force Field).

Availability. Phase Weapons aren't that common, they certainly aren't 'a phase beamer in every hand' common as at least one person's claimed. If they're showing up that common then the GM is skewing things to screw over a party particularly the borg in it, because there are few situations where someone's going to always expect a cyborg to show up and even then doesn't mean that they can get their hands on a phase weapon.

All the arguments made regarding full conversion borgs fail because of their faulty logic. All of them are arguments that in the end apply to any SDC creature and yet ALL of that is handwaved away to say 'cyborgs are special it's not fair that they have a vulnerability all these others have'. Wrong it's completely fair. Everyone else has to worry about such weaknesses and far more than a borg has so why then does he get to be so special? Oh right it's only fair to be able to whack the power armor guy or guy sitting in an MDC vehicle in a few shots that completely ignore his armor not the guy in full conversion borg status.

EDIT: Also from a quick refresher in looking at the books phase beamers are useless against phase fields, an active phase field will block an unlimited number of phase beamer attacks. So it's not like there isn't tech around to provide the Cyborg with protection if he's willing to buy it and if he's not well that's his problem now isn't it?

[Colonel Wolfe]

Phase Med-Kit? Item built for healing, intentionally designed to NOT harm someone and be able to detect cybernetics connected to organic tissue and phase them safely.

except, its not stated to do anything like that in the Phase-tech med kit.
it only says "Cybernetics and Bionic implants are not affect because they are attached to the neurological system of the Character, so they phase out too." it says nothing about Detecting cybernetics or such, just they phase because of the connection to neurological tissue.

[Nightmask]

Phase Med-Kit? Item built for healing, intentionally designed to NOT harm someone and be able to detect cybernetics connected to organic tissue and phase them safely.

except, its not stated to do anything like that in the Phase-tech med kit.
it only says "Cybernetics and Bionic implants are not affect because they are attached to the neurological system of the Character, so they phase out too." it says nothing about Detecting cybernetics or such, just they phase because of the connection to neurological tissue.

Which doesn't say why they aren't affected, and in an advanced technological society it's quite reasonable to think the cybernetics/bionics phase out because it's designed that way. Also if one's to try and argue that biological connection makes the bionics/cybernetics 'alive' then as far as phase beamers are concerned they should qualify as SDC/HP systems and NOT MDC with regards to phase beamers. Linking to an organic SDC/HP brain shouldn't make the brain MDC, it should make the MDC equipment SDC as far as the beamer is concerned.

Or one could just add a 'Phase Field Brain Shielding: This add-on to full conversion borgs shields the organic brain from the effects of phase beamer weapons. Costs: 100,000 credits' but of course that immunity to phase weapons just unbalances things even more. Not that the borg should get to be some special case and should have to take his lumps like everyone else rather than whining about how he has to be careful about something and isn't the unstoppable tank he wanted to be.

Since I doubt the guy in a Glitter Boy is going to be happy that with his paltry level of SDC and HP in comparison a few guys with phase beamers could have him dead in a melee, two at the most, because he's got if you're super-generous maybe 100 SDC/HP total which is less than a seventh the MDC of his PA. So we aren't talking fairness here, not really. The Borg player is just wanting an advantage the others don't have, like he hasn't already eliminated many of his human limitations as it is as a borg. How horrible he have to continue having a few worries.

[Galroth]

Phase Med-Kit? Item built for healing, intentionally designed to NOT harm someone and be able to detect cybernetics connected to organic tissue and phase them safely.

except, its not stated to do anything like that in the Phase-tech med kit.
it only says "Cybernetics and Bionic implants are not affect because they are attached to the neurological system of the Character, so they phase out too." it says nothing about Detecting cybernetics or such, just they phase because of the connection to neurological tissue.

Which doesn't say why they aren't affected, and in an advanced technological society it's quite reasonable to think the cybernetics/bionics phase out because it's designed that way. Also if one's to try and argue that biological connection makes the bionics/cybernetics 'alive' then as far as phase beamers are concerned they should qualify as SDC/HP systems and NOT MDC with regards to phase beamers. Linking to an organic SDC/HP brain shouldn't make the brain MDC, it should make the MDC equipment SDC as far as the beamer is concerned.

Or one could just add a 'Phase Field Brain Shielding: This add-on to full conversion borgs shields the organic brain from the effects of phase beamer weapons. Costs: 100,000 credits' but of course that immunity to phase weapons just unbalances things even more. Not that the borg should get to be some special case and should have to take his lumps like everyone else rather than whining about how he has to be careful about something and isn't the unstoppable tank he wanted to be.

Since I doubt the guy in a Glitter Boy is going to be happy that with his paltry level of SDC and HP in comparison a few guys with phase beamers could have him dead in a melee, two at the most, because he's got if you're super-generous maybe 100 SDC/HP total which is less than a seventh the MDC of his PA. So we aren't talking fairness here, not really. The Borg player is just wanting an advantage the others don't have, like he hasn't already eliminated many of his human limitations as it is as a borg. How horrible he have to continue having a few worries.

Except it does say why they aren't effected. It's because they are attached to the neurological system. Also it takes one guy, one attack with a phase pistol to one shot a borg the way you want the rules to tilt. Not a mob of guys with phase rifles a round, or two. How many of those guys do you think the GB pilot could take out in that round? One for each hand to hand attack he has, that's how many. If the borg loses initiative he wouldn't even take one of the bastards with him, so really it is about game balance. Just because you don't like the answer, doesn't mean it hasn't been presented.

[Nightmask]

Except it does say why they aren't effected. It's because they are attached to the neurological system. Also it takes one guy, one attack with a phase pistol to one shot a borg the way you want the rules to tilt. Not a mob of guys with phase rifles a round, or two. How many of those guys do you think the GB pilot could take out in that round? One for each hand to hand attack he has, that's how many. If the borg loses initiative he wouldn't even take one of the bastards with him, so really it is about game balance. Just because you don't like the answer, doesn't mean it hasn't been presented.

I shouldn't have to repeat myself that 'attached to a neurological system' isn't an explanation as to why it matters, but not like anyone seems to actually be attempting to actually address my actual points since they can't find valid means of refuting them apparently. Really hard to argue that medical equipment that gives even an untrained individual a good medical success percentage wasn't built to take into account cybernetic connections or that weapons aren't built to be most lethal.

As far as your statement that I want the rules tilting that way, sorry but that's just not the case. I have no particular interest in it tilting one way or the other, I'm only going by what's a reasonable interpretation when it comes to phase tech and phase weapons. They ignore all non-living matter, cybernetics and bionics aren't living matter, SDC/HP organs don't become MDC when hooked up with normal bionics. You want to see SDC/HP flesh become MDC you need something like the Anti-Monster or that poor soul victimized by Dr. Articulus, where MDC bionics and flesh are magically merged creating a supernaturally magical creature.

Really, the one not liking the answer seems to be you, else you wouldn't complain so much about the 'poor put upon cyborg' getting killed in one particular rare instance and he should be all the time protected unlike his still fully human SDC/HP companions. The Glitter Boy pilot is going to be just as frustrated at getting knocked off like that as the borg, and odds are he's not going to have the chance you think he has of 'taking at least some of you with me!'. Because it's not game balance that's involved here, because you can one-shot kill ANY of those SDC/HP creatures with any MD weapon around. Even a Juicer with max rolls has a good chance of dying from a single shot from an MD weapon. Why doesn't this happen? Because the GM is expected to not be a killer GM and @$$ to the players if he wants to continue to have players at his table. Another point I see no one is willing to acknowledge. Villains with phase beamers popping up killing borg characters with single shots have no more reason to occur than some Juicer assassin sniping someone who just stepped out of his MDC vehicle or some PC walking up to a bar and asking for a drink and getting a random MD plasma bolt cast from a random Ley Line Walker in the back vaporizing him instantly.

So no it's got nothing to do with game balance or the skewed suggestions of what's fair, because the basic premise of this argument requires an inherently unfair action on the part of the GM in a game being treated as expected: namely supplying NPC with phase weapons just to one-shot kill a cyborg because he can. We expect GM to not do that just as we expect him to not be one-shotting a PC with MD weapons when he's just SDC with no hope to react or even have reason to expect such an attack. That is where the fairness comes in. A GM that runs around doing things like that either has players who're okay with such killer tactics and like expecting everything to be potentially instantly fatal, think such behavior is acceptable and endure it, or won't have players at all.

[Galroth]

Cybernetics being connected to a biological system the way they are is indeed an explanation because the designer who dreamed up phase tech said that's the way it works. Just because you believe it should work a different way doesn't make you the expert in all things phase tech. You can't really argue the point because neither thing exists in real life so you can't make assumptions about how it should work. It works the way the designer sets out that it works. Or you house rule it for your game. Those are the choices in front of you. Continuing to argue the point after the book rules have been presented is kinda on the pointless side.

So, according to the RaW a full conversion borg takes MD from a phase weapon, not HP damage. This makes sense since you can't single out his squishy organics without shooting through MDC materials that are connected to said squishy material. Now a partial conversion borg is a whole different ball of wax, assuming of course that you can get a clean shot at his organic components without shooting through surgically grafted bionic structures. It's the 'surgically grafted to his nervous system' part that make the bionics phase at the same time the fleshy bits do. The power armor pilot isn't grafted to his armor.

[Nightmask]

Cybernetics being connected to a biological system the way they are is indeed an explanation because the designer who dreamed up phase tech said that's the way it works. Just because you believe it should work a different way doesn't make you the expert in all things phase tech. You can't really argue the point because neither thing exists in real life so you can't make assumptions about how it should work. It works the way the designer sets out that it works. Or you house rule it for your game. Those are the choices in front of you. Continuing to argue the point after the book rules have been presented is kinda on the pointless side.

So, according to the RaW a full conversion borg takes MD from a phase weapon, not HP damage. This makes sense since you can't single out his squishy organics without shooting through MDC materials that are connected to said squishy material. Now a partial conversion borg is a whole different ball of wax, assuming of course that you can get a clean shot at his organic components without shooting through surgically grafted bionic structures. It's the 'surgically grafted to his nervous system' part that make the bionics phase at the same time the fleshy bits do. The power armor pilot isn't grafted to his armor.

Except that makes no sense at all, since phase tech explicitly doesn't do ANY damage to inorganic things like walls, vehicles, and robots (including power armor) so you could be shooting through a hundred feet of MDC material and it wouldn't affect the beam at all it'd still hit and hurt the organics on the other side just fine. So since phase weapons are explicitly noted as NOT harming non-living, inorganic things cyborg parts being non-living, inorganic materials don't even exist as far as phase weapons go. It's also pretty funny that you are just fine with the Partial Conversion borg who has more SDC flesh available being just fine to kill that way even though he's just as connected to bionic MDC items as the full conversion borg's brain is for which btw the really big phase beamer covers a 10' area so whether you're FC or PC borg your organics will get hit.

Again for like the fifth time you're taking something applicable to a medical device which is meant to heal and trying to apply that to something meant to harm, two totally unrelated things. Hooking up a a living being to a non-living object doesn't make it alive, something you seem quite willing to accept in saying the Partial Conversion Borg retains SDC and HP to make HIM easy to kill in his power armor or borg armor yet turn around and claim that the same brain if he was moved from Partial to Full conversion suddenly now with less organics makes the borg parts somehow alive. Sorry but you really fail logic with such claims. Either hooking up organics to bionics makes them MDC or it doesn't, you can't have it both ways and you especially fail trying to claim that with less organics involved the borg becomes more alive which is effectively what you're doing.

Now if you want to go with a nonsensical unnecessary idea that phase weapons that ignore all non-living materials will suddenly think it's alive because you hooked up a chunk of human brain to it but hooking it up to half a human body doesn't go right ahead but I don't accept nonsense just because it's written down in a book, and things that violate what's logical and plausible just aren't going to get a 'gee I'll just switch off my brain because I was told to' response out of me. There are plenty of other ways to have handled the alleged problem even if you and everyone else choose to ignore them to be contrary or whatever other reason you choose.

[Galroth]

Concerning Partial Conversion borgs, you seemed to have missed where I said: assuming of course that you can get a clean shot at his organic components without shooting through surgically grafted bionic structures.

The way I think of it is that bionics/cybernetics that are installed become a sort of 'closed circuit'. Electrical impulses come from the brain and travel through the graft sensors causing the limbs to move or bionic components to actuate, whatever the person grafted into the borg body wants to do. In turn the sensors attached to the bionics feed information back to the brain, thus 'closing the circuit'. This is what, in my mind makes borgs different from someone in power armor in relation to phase tech.

I'm not turning off my brain just because it's written down a certain way. I certainly don't do that with the RUE Ley Line rules. I use the old rules for increasing damage, duration and range. Mostly I assume that just got left out on accident, it wouldn't surprise me with the horrific editing that goes on at Palladium. Love the fluff, like the system, hate the editing and formatting.

[Colonel Wolfe]

except, its not stated to do anything like that in the Phase-tech med kit.
it only says "Cybernetics and Bionic implants are not affect because they are attached to the neurological system of the Character, so they phase out too." it says nothing about Detecting cybernetics or such, just they phase because of the connection to neurological tissue.

Which doesn't say why they aren't affected........

IDK, sounds like they say why...

[Nightmask]

except, its not stated to do anything like that in the Phase-tech med kit.
it only says "Cybernetics and Bionic implants are not affect because they are attached to the neurological system of the Character, so they phase out too." it says nothing about Detecting cybernetics or such, just they phase because of the connection to neurological tissue.

Which doesn't say why they aren't affected........

IDK, sounds like they say why...

That's not a why. A why is 'because the technology can detect said connection and will phase the attached technology in order to not harm the individual', or even as some are trying to bootstrap from it 'because the connection somehow makes the technology alive from the perspective of phase tech'. That however is NOT what the description says even if that's what many are trying to read into it. It's far more logical and requires far less handwaving to determine that as medical tech it's designed not to harm the individual so phases attached bionics rather than go the less rational route to try and claim the bionics are now considered alive as far as phase tech is concerned.

That over-repeated snippet is incomplete and being used to try and make a claim that's simply not supported by the actual tech. It requires a lot of handwaving to dismiss the fact it's a medical device meant to heal and would have safeguards and instead claim it's because phase tech designed to damage organics and living things thinks a borg is now alive just because you hooked up some flesh to it.

[Galroth]

except, its not stated to do anything like that in the Phase-tech med kit.
it only says "Cybernetics and Bionic implants are not affect because they are attached to the neurological system of the Character, so they phase out too." it says nothing about Detecting cybernetics or such, just they phase because of the connection to neurological tissue.

Which doesn't say why they aren't affected........

IDK, sounds like they say why...

That's not a why. A why is 'because the technology can detect said connection and will phase the attached technology in order to not harm the individual', or even as some are trying to bootstrap from it 'because the connection somehow makes the technology alive from the perspective of phase tech'. That however is NOT what the description says even if that's what many are trying to read into it. It's far more logical and requires far less handwaving to determine that as medical tech it's designed not to harm the individual so phases attached bionics rather than go the less rational route to try and claim the bionics are now considered alive as far as phase tech is concerned.

That over-repeated snippet is incomplete and being used to try and make a claim that's simply not supported by the actual tech. It requires a lot of handwaving to dismiss the fact it's a medical device meant to heal and would have safeguards and instead claim it's because phase tech designed to damage organics and living things thinks a borg is now alive just because you hooked up some flesh to it.

Unless it's not a feature. It could be a limitation. You are assuming they built in safeguards for the medkit, which also isn't in the description. It's a statement of fact about how phase tech interacts with bionics. If it were a feature it would be described as such. It would be written in the description saying that the medkit was the exception. Since it appears in both the medkit and says outright in another section that 'Borgs take MD from phase weapons it sounds more like a limitation to the technology that they didn't have to work around when they made the medkits.

[Vrykolas2k]

Except that Kevin S. Himself in an offical FAQ said that Borgs are immune to those kinds of problems, and that's why it was added into RUE.

Yes, it dosn't make any logical sense. it's a rule that exists only for game balance.

Afraid I can't see how it could balance things when it's inherently unbalanced and illogical. What were there so many people running around with Phase weapons for no justifiable reason that Borgs got to be a special case of being immune to a weapon that they should be most vulnerable to?

They're not immune; they take mega-damage, as they're officially MDC beings.

[Nightmask]

That's not a why. A why is 'because the technology can detect said connection and will phase the attached technology in order to not harm the individual', or even as some are trying to bootstrap from it 'because the connection somehow makes the technology alive from the perspective of phase tech'. That however is NOT what the description says even if that's what many are trying to read into it. It's far more logical and requires far less handwaving to determine that as medical tech it's designed not to harm the individual so phases attached bionics rather than go the less rational route to try and claim the bionics are now considered alive as far as phase tech is concerned.

That over-repeated snippet is incomplete and being used to try and make a claim that's simply not supported by the actual tech. It requires a lot of handwaving to dismiss the fact it's a medical device meant to heal and would have safeguards and instead claim it's because phase tech designed to damage organics and living things thinks a borg is now alive just because you hooked up some flesh to it.

Unless it's not a feature. It could be a limitation. You are assuming they built in safeguards for the medkit, which also isn't in the description. It's a statement of fact about how phase tech interacts with bionics. If it were a feature it would be described as such. It would be written in the description saying that the medkit was the exception. Since it appears in both the medkit and says outright in another section that 'Borgs take MD from phase weapons it sounds more like a limitation to the technology that they didn't have to work around when they made the medkits.

You're the one assuming there not I. All you have in that medkit description is how it reacts under a circumstance we all know would be highly detrimental if phase med kits didn't safely phase the non-living components attached to the living at the same time. It's an obvious feature since we already know phase tech when it comes to weapons bypasses anything non-living to directly attack just the living component. It's going quite a distance to ignore the reasonable consideration given those that phase weapons actually react to borgs like they're all alive when they aren't when the reasonable consideration is just that phase med-kits are designed not to hurt patients more than they already have been.

[Galroth]

You are the one assuming how quasi-mystical technology should react to a given situation, which is odd since you don't have to. The designers have laid out exactly how the quasi-mystical technology they invented in their heads reacts in this situation. It's not like they left a big hole here for you to fill with supposition. The medkit description is just icing on the cake that is 'Borgs take MD from phase weapons.

If the medkit reacting that way to bionics were a feature it would be described as such. "The medkit recognizes implanted medical devices, cybernetics and bionics and doesn't phase them out of the patient." That's not how it's presented, it's presented as a fact about the way phase tech works when it comes into contact with bionics/cybernetics. Lucky engineers, they didn't have to design an extra safety feature, it already worked that way.


Edit: I'm officially done arguing about this, at this point I'm going to agree to disagree with you. Obviously we both see this differently and no one is going to give.

[Nightmask]

You are the one assuming how quasi-mystical technology should react to a given situation, which is odd since you don't have to. The designers have laid out exactly how the quasi-mystical technology they invented in their heads reacts in this situation. It's not like they left a big hole here for you to fill with supposition. The medkit description is just icing on the cake that is 'Borgs take MD from phase weapons.

If the medkit reacting that way to bionics were a feature it would be described as such. "The medkit recognizes implanted medical devices, cybernetics and bionics and doesn't phase them out of the patient." That's not how it's presented, it's presented as a fact about the way phase tech works when it comes into contact with bionics/cybernetics. Lucky engineers, they didn't have to design an extra safety feature, it already worked that way.

Yes yes I know you're going to spin it that way, even though you're taking a conclusion and working backward trying to justify it when the conclusion doesn't work with the stated way the phase weapons work. Because we already know that phase weapons ignore ALL non-living materials to hit JUST the living materials, because it's a weapon. We know Phase Med-Kits don't ignore non-living materials that are attached to living materials because that's what phase med-kits do, recognize that connection so as not to harm. Good thing those phase-tech medical tech engineers are so intelligent as to build their med kits to not go ripping life-saving bionics off of a patient and accidentally killing them (although likely they had a few deaths that way originally).

Now go ahead and tell me yet again how phase weapons which ignore all non-living materials were built by med-tech engineers to read bionics as living materials and hit them first even though phase weapons are explicitly noted as being unable to harm non-living materials and pass right through them like they aren't even there. Oh and don't forget to repeat how a medical device wouldn't have safeguards built in to cover the case of bionics and how bionics are alive when a bit of human tissue is attached even though they can't heal and because they aren't alive cause a complete loss of things like PPE, ISP, and any psionics or magical ability someone might possess. But make sure to repeat how the bionics are alive anyway as you argue in support of something that isn't rational or logical based on how phase weapons are said to affect living matter by trying to spin how medical applications are exactly the same as weapon applications. Then you can cut-and-paste my reply how I disagree with such illogical, nonsensical claims.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Well, since I can never help but to throw logs on the fire...

Phase swords anyone?

4D6MD to the cyborg. since its an MDC being.

[Scorpion Leader]

A) If we follow as it says Cyborgs are now considered MDC beings, Phase Weapons do MD damage anyway (and I said should be delt with in this manner previously).

C) Phase Weapons do not under usual circumstances do Damage Direct to Hit Points as both sides of the issue like to claim and use as a basis for their arguement(s).

A) you are not correct in what you said, in that you were so incompleat in what you said to make what you said incorrect. If you had said that Phase Beamers do MD to MDC beings and MDC force fields, you would of been correct.

What I said is not incorrect, as we are talking about only the MD damage to MDC beings as what has been in contention about borgs (that they are concidered MD beings. see: RUE p. 47 and Rifts: creator Kevin S. post in another forum elswwhere.) The part about MDC force feilds is a given and not part of the topic of discussion. You need to read and stick to the subject of the post more carefuly.

Damage: 3d6 SD to humans and other SDC creatures: 4d6 MD to MDC beings and ff. It does not damage armor of any kind!

I do belive it says body armor.

Phase weapons are also discribe as not doing harm to most inanimate objects.

Notice: its says most meaning not all such objects will be immune.



You wrote: C) When the being has No SDC, then Phase beamers do direct to HP damage. Things w/HP & w/o SDC: Vamps, (some) were-people, beings who's SDC has been damaged through, PF1 chars and FCB.


Yes that is correct, But what we are talking about is that so many try of you to claim Phase Weapons do (as if is written in their dicription) damage direct to hit points period automaticlly. This is incorrect, They DO NOT!! Yo do this to either claim a Cyborgs Immunity or Vulnerability to Phase Weapons. The RULE as to what is Damage Direct to Hit Points is: WHEN A WEAPON BYPASSES A TARGETS NATURAL SDC and does Damage Direct to HIT POINTS!! Just Becuase the target has No SDC (becuase of Bionic conversion) does not automaticly make the weapon do damage direct to hit points. The only reason damage is coming off hit points is because there is no SDC to deduct from; however this does NOT make a Phase Weapon Automaticlly a Weapon that does damage direct to hit points, as it does not fit the Rule as to what constitutes damage direct to hit points. A Phase Weapon damages SDC first (granted if the target has any) and then deducts from Hit Points. IT Does Not Do damage Direct To Hit Points!! However as Borgs are to be considered as MDC beings ONLY as on p. 47 RUE (not my Rule BTW that was Kevins idea. I have just provided examples that support it and even how to get around it, but with in the confines of the Rule) your arguement is a mute point.

Did you even read all my previous posts? The A-G is just a quick summary of Points about Phase weapons and what they do.
To say I was imcomplete based on a quick summary of points based on pevious posts, that are more detailed and it is very obveious you did not care to read them, is pure folly on your part and you should be more careful when posting.

[Scorpion Leader]

You are the one assuming how quasi-mystical technology should react to a given situation, which is odd since you don't have to. The designers have laid out exactly how the quasi-mystical technology they invented in their heads reacts in this situation. It's not like they left a big hole here for you to fill with supposition. The medkit description is just icing on the cake that is 'Borgs take MD from phase weapons.

If the medkit reacting that way to bionics were a feature it would be described as such. "The medkit recognizes implanted medical devices, cybernetics and bionics and doesn't phase them out of the patient." That's not how it's presented, it's presented as a fact about the way phase tech works when it comes into contact with bionics/cybernetics. Lucky engineers, they didn't have to design an extra safety feature, it already worked that way.

Yes yes I know you're going to spin it that way, even though you're taking a conclusion and working backward trying to justify it when the conclusion doesn't work with the stated way the phase weapons work. Because we already know that phase weapons ignore ALL non-living materials to hit JUST the living materials, because it's a weapon. We know Phase Med-Kits don't ignore non-living materials that are attached to living materials because that's what phase med-kits do, recognize that connection so as not to harm. Good thing those phase-tech medical tech engineers are so intelligent as to build their med kits to not go ripping life-saving bionics off of a patient and accidentally killing them (although likely they had a few deaths that way originally).

Now go ahead and tell me yet again how phase weapons which ignore all non-living materials were built by med-tech engineers to read bionics as living materials and hit them first even though phase weapons are explicitly noted as being unable to harm non-living materials and pass right through them like they aren't even there. Oh and don't forget to repeat how a medical device wouldn't have safeguards built in to cover the case of bionics and how bionics are alive when a bit of human tissue is attached even though they can't heal and because they aren't alive cause a complete loss of things like PPE, ISP, and any psionics or magical ability someone might possess. But make sure to repeat how the bionics are alive anyway as you argue in support of something that isn't rational or logical based on how phase weapons are said to affect living matter by trying to spin how medical applications are exactly the same as weapon applications. Then you can cut-and-paste my reply how I disagree with such illogical, nonsensical claims.

First you should read up on Phase Technology more. As you read more carefully about Phase Tech you will find that the discription says Phase Tech does No Harm to MOST (Notice: Key Word here MOST as in NOT ALL) non-living inanimate objects.
Those of you who claim Phase Tech (ie. Phase Weapons) do no damage/harm to ALL Non-Living Things are GRAVELY MISTAKEN!!
The Discription say's MOST IT DOES NOT SAY ALL as you try to claim. Most means there are exceptions, that there are some, whatever they may be, Non-living materials/componets/objects that are vulnerable to Phase Weapons!! Full Conversion Cyborgs are such a case but can only be HARMED bythe MD aspect of Phase Weapons as they are ruled as being totally MD Beings!! However I have provided you with the ways to handle this problem in all my previous posts if you care to read them over carefully on how to.

To the poster of the message I am replying to, I suggest you reffer to my post on taking out the Borg with a Point Blank Shot to the Head or Heart as you may find some degree of satisfaction there.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Damage: 3d6 SD to humans and other SDC creatures: 4d6 MD to MDC beings and ff. It does not damage armor of any kind!

I do believe it says body armor.

Phase weapons are also describe as not doing harm to most inanimate objects.

Notice: its says most meaning not all such objects will be immune.

That was a direct quote.

C) When the being has No SDC, then Phase beamers do direct to HP damage. Things w/HP & w/o SDC: Vamps, (some) were-people, beings who's SDC has been damaged through, PF1 chars and FCB.

You need to look at the surface of this, w/o any interpretation. You could of just ignored this since it was just stating a bald fact.

[Scorpion Leader]

Damage: 3d6 SD to humans and other SDC creatures: 4d6 MD to MDC beings and ff. It does not damage armor of any kind!

I do believe it says body armor.

Phase weapons are also describe as not doing harm to most inanimate objects.

Notice: its says most meaning not all such objects will be immune.

That was a direct quote.

C) When the being has No SDC, then Phase beamers do direct to HP damage. Things w/HP & w/o SDC: Vamps, (some) were-people, beings who's SDC has been damaged through, PF1 chars and FCB.

You need to look at the surface of this, w/o any interpretation. You could of just ignored this since it was just stating a bald fact.

If you read carefully the Full Disrcription about Phase Tech and Phase Weapons (not just the individual weapon stats) and how they work, you'll come across where it mentions that Phase Weapons(tech) does no harm to most inanimate objects. However as I said before the key word here is the word MOST which means not all such objects are immune.

Again "ME" your contention with point C: is not valid as I explained as to why in my last post as a reply to you; as to what relay counts as Direct to Hit Point Damage per the rules given us in the RUE, other books and forums. You only stated a given fact we know already and was not part of the issue at hand (at least not in the way that you may think it is). What we are talking about is
p. 47 of RUE that states that Borgs take No Damage from Attacks Direct to Hit Points. As Full Conversion Borgs are considered MDC beings now (again game creators rule not mine). The point isn't becuase they have NO SDC, so any Attacks made would go direct to Hit Points becuase they Have No Natual SDC. The Point is No Direct Attacks To HP of Borgs Period!! Also becareful of which types of character's you are qouting as your examples. Even though Vampires are harmed by Phase Weapons (and some SDC items per special rules concerning only Vampires/Vampire Intelligences) Vampires in Rifts are MDC Beings Not Hit Point without SDC Beings as you claim. However as I mentioned in a previous post above MDC for MDC beings is their equalivalent (meaning equal too, but is NOT HP/SDC) to HP/SDC of Normal SDC beings.

Problems with the Rule on p.47 of RUE include some possible miss uses of the Rule to make Borgs Immune/Ivulnerable to any attacks by any weapons (not just Phase Weapons or Dominator Gravity Weapons see: RDSB:12:TunderCloud Galaxy for the later), psionic, magic attacks of any kind.
My original problem as stated in earlier posts above is that you can rule that even if Borgs are to be concidered MDC beings you could still say they are immune to any Attacks to their Hit Points or MDC in this case (as MDC for MDC Beings counts as/is equal to HP for them), then any such attack to their MDC by anything would not count because it is direct to their HP (or what is for them equal to HP) and hence you can not kill a Full Conversion Borg. They can Not Die!! But of course that's absurd and a very twisted (Devils Advocate) sence of the rules. But that loophole exist and could be unfairly taken advantage of be unscrupolous GMS or Rules Lawyer Players (I suggest you also read my post about rules lawyering).

Now lets examine your arguement the same problem in essence still exists becuase even without SDC or if You had normal SDC to begin with and it got depleted you would now be doing damage direct to hit points as you so rightfully claim. However you Cannot Do
Damage (have any attacks that due damage to) Direct To Hit Points. So even if they had any SDC to being with and you depleted all their natural SDC and damage would now come off of Hit Points; somone who is again very unscroplous would take advantage and
say that can't be done becuase the rules say No Attacks Direct To Hit Points. Again that is absurd illogical and an extreme twisting off the rules on that persons part. But the loopehole exists none the less and the Rules would seem (even though they really don't)
to support that persons claim at least on face value alone.

Of course you may be in the camp of why borgs are not immune and can be hit direct to hit points by Phase Weapons.
But I've covered that elsewhere as well as to why that cannot be. So read all my previous posts to learn more on that. With arguements for and against it, and a surprise final note that maybe of satisfaction to you, on how it is possible even if Borgs are to be Considered MDC beings.

Now if you carefully read through all my posts I've researched gone though the Rules and Came up with the fairst Ruling that could be made based on the rules. Many of our Fellow gamers were at first disagreed with what I found and determined (some of them like yourself still do), but now agree with what I came up with as the fair way to Handle Borgs Vs. Phase Weapons after much debate and research into the rules on my part. Some of these Guy's and Gal's are pretty hardcore gamers (and know the rules well themselves almost to the point of Rules Lawyering) I might add so swaying them was not that easy. But even they came to see the fairest (based on the rules as written in the RUE, GM's Guide, & RDSB: Two: Phase World) in what i've writtenin my posts. I'm not asking you to except as they did my solution to the problem. i'm just asking you carefully read everything over first in the posts and check it out for yourself, before jumping the gun and making any predeterminations or judgements. Game it your way. Just be sure to have fun and to be fair to the players is all.

[Nightmask]

Clearly I must see about splicing some organic tissue into all my characters power armor, vehicles, etc. so that they'll promptly become alive as far as phase weapons are concerned thereby ensuring complete protection from their attacks as they're forced to destroy the power armor or other protection instead...

...and I'm sure some will either fail to recognize the level of sarcasm involved in that and find it an excellent and perfectly logical idea or rail against it with a dozen reasons why hooking up organic tissue to a power armor won't do that, and all the reasons will fail because a cyborg is no more alive than a power armor or vehicle because you plugged a brain into it and if that's all it takes then one should be able to hook some brain tissue into a power armor and expect it to be just as alive yet that's nonsense because it isn't.

[Scorpion Leader]

Clearly I must see about splicing some organic tissue into all my characters power armor, vehicles, etc. so that they'll promptly become alive as far as phase weapons are concerned thereby ensuring complete protection from their attacks as they're forced to destroy the power armor or other protection instead...

...and I'm sure some will either fail to recognize the level of sarcasm involved in that and find it an excellent and perfectly logical idea or rail against it with a dozen reasons why hooking up organic tissue to a power armor won't do that, and all the reasons will fail because a cyborg is no more alive than a power armor or vehicle because you plugged a brain into it and if that's all it takes then one should be able to hook some brain tissue into a power armor and expect it to be just as alive yet that's nonsense because it isn't.

If you don't like the solution you don't have to use it. Also if you can come up with a better solution, that is Fair (balanced as well Game Rules wise) and Based on Study and review of The Rules Materials we are all Waiting on baited breath and would all love to here it!! Until then please refrain from being so whinee as it is growing very tiresome. Your acting like a little kid who can't have his favorite toy!! So again if you don't like my solution No one is forcing you to use it! In the mean time please only post if you have something truely helpful and constructive to say, as you don't need to post here, if what has been brought up as a solution to the problem truely upsets you that much.
Let's please move on. Thank you.

[Nightmask]

Clearly I must see about splicing some organic tissue into all my characters power armor, vehicles, etc. so that they'll promptly become alive as far as phase weapons are concerned thereby ensuring complete protection from their attacks as they're forced to destroy the power armor or other protection instead...

...and I'm sure some will either fail to recognize the level of sarcasm involved in that and find it an excellent and perfectly logical idea or rail against it with a dozen reasons why hooking up organic tissue to a power armor won't do that, and all the reasons will fail because a cyborg is no more alive than a power armor or vehicle because you plugged a brain into it and if that's all it takes then one should be able to hook some brain tissue into a power armor and expect it to be just as alive yet that's nonsense because it isn't.

If you don't like the solution you don't have to use it. Also if you can come up with a better solution, that is Fair (balanced as well Game Rules wise) and Based on Study and review of The Rules Materials we are all Waiting on baited breath and would all love to here it!! Until then please refrain from being so whinee as it is growing very tiresome. Your acting like a little kid who can't have his favorite toy!! So again if you don't like my solution No one is forcing you to use it! In the mean time please only post if you have something truely helpful and constructive to say, as you don't need to post here, if what has been brought up as a solution to the problem truely upsets you that much.
Let's please move on. Thank you.

Seems I have given solutions, ones quite ignored even though they made a lot more sense than trying to consider a robot alive because you hooked a brain to it and solve a problem that wasn't. Nothing fair about how an operator could step out of his vehicle and be one-shot killed by someone with a mega-damage weapon, or a Glitter Boy pilot getting out to go into a bar, or a Runner stepping off of his ship and they've got a lot more to worry about as there are a LOT more weapons around that deal mega-damage that can kill them than there are phase weapons that could pick off a cyborg. So when you're talking about fair and balanced do remember that what you're arguing isn't fair and balanced because you are affording the cyborg more protection than he warrants compared to all these other far more common threats of being killed on a single shot without hope of defending oneself. If you want an MDC character that can survive anything less than starship weapons across the board go with an Anti-Monster or some other legimate cyborg where the tissue is magically enhanced to MDC status.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The Phase-med kit mentions Cybernetic and Bionic systems connected to the Nervous system, not Organic Tissue alone.
and Phase technology isn't exactly true Technology, that obeys any rules of physics and its even listed as possibly techno-Wizardy, so how it operates is completely the Game Designer Fiat.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Since my chars do not use Phase beamers this is getting old. Ta Ta.
*pads out of the 'discussion'*

[Nightmask]

The Phase-med kit mentions Cybernetic and Bionic systems connected to the Nervous system, not Organic Tissue alone.
and Phase technology isn't exactly true Technology, that obeys any rules of physics and its even listed as possibly techno-Wizardy, so how it operates is completely the Game Designer Fiat.

In which case you hook it up to some brain tissue, that's about all that's left of a full conversion borg.

Either way there shouldn't be an issue about it or a game designer fiat of such contrary proportions. No one's willing to admit it but this has nothing to do with fairness or game balance, it's just personal desire. No one's willing to admit that the average SDC creature can be one-shot killed at any time by a wide variety of MD weapons and effects or complain about the 'unfairness' of that while turning around and complaining bitterly about some brain in a jar being subject to the same possibility from a very rare weapon (and seriously phase weapons are a rare item compared to all the MD inflicting weapons around).

The same thing that explains why those average SDC creatures aren't being one-shot killed (and at far better odds of being hit than a brain hidden in a big cyborg shell) explains why it isn't happening to cyborgs; because the GM recognizes that in giving a player no chance and just instant-killing his PC is quickly going to lose him a player and maybe his entire game group depending how unfair it was. Otherwise everyone would insist on running natural MDC creatures like Demi-gods so the GM wouldn't be able to get such instant-kills on them. The entire problem is a non-issue and the 'solution' requires a wallbanger of suspension of disbelief to go along with, when other solutions are possible within what's actually part of the game rather than a creator fiat.

[Scorpion Leader]

The Phase-med kit mentions Cybernetic and Bionic systems connected to the Nervous system, not Organic Tissue alone.
and Phase technology isn't exactly true Technology, that obeys any rules of physics and its even listed as possibly techno-Wizardy, so how it operates is completely the Game Designer Fiat.

In which case you hook it up to some brain tissue, that's about all that's left of a full conversion borg.

Either way there shouldn't be an issue about it or a game designer fiat of such contrary proportions. No one's willing to admit it but this has nothing to do with fairness or game balance, it's just personal desire. No one's willing to admit that the average SDC creature can be one-shot killed at any time by a wide variety of MD weapons and effects or complain about the 'unfairness' of that while turning around and complaining bitterly about some brain in a jar being subject to the same possibility from a very rare weapon (and seriously phase weapons are a rare item compared to all the MD inflicting weapons around).

The same thing that explains why those average SDC creatures aren't being one-shot killed (and at far better odds of being hit than a brain hidden in a big cyborg shell) explains why it isn't happening to cyborgs; because the GM recognizes that in giving a player no chance and just instant-killing his PC is quickly going to lose him a player and maybe his entire game group depending how unfair it was. Otherwise everyone would insist on running natural MDC creatures like Demi-gods so the GM wouldn't be able to get such instant-kills on them. The entire problem is a non-issue and the 'solution' requires a wallbanger of suspension of disbelief to go along with, when other solutions are possible within what's actually part of the game rather than a creator fiat.

It's funny how you claim everything does not have to do with fairness in the game or game balance, but with personal desire. Is it not Your Own Personal Desire that you are trying so so hard too get across and have approval of, that you can one shot kill the Cyborg!! (which i've given an example how that is still possible in a previous post and fits within the confines of the RULES Palladium has given us including p. 47 of RUE; which also supports your claim, but perhaps not in the exact manner you would like it to. see: My Posts regarding about Point Blank Attacks to the Head or Heart ). Yes the rules in RUE talk about MD vs. SDC and you are right about the GM having to recognize giving players a chance and that includes Borgs for our purposes. However this goes back to fairnes in the game and know it or not you just contradicted yourself as you said earlier this has nothing to due with Fairness in the game or Game Balance, yet you chose to cite an exmple of such fairness. We still have not heard as to what your solutions are or would be?? You just say other solutions exist within the confines of the game, which there is no arguement there as there more than likely are, but please do share your enlightenment with us. The "Solution" or should I now say "Solutions" I came up with do fit with in the confines of the game and within all the affect Rules. Also Please Note any GOOD Fiction, Sci-Fiction, T.V. Show, Movie, Book, or RPG like Rifts and Phase World requires as you would put it a "wall banger" of suspention of disbelief. It would not be fiction or Sci-Fi without such and that is why that term exists. Of course with all our modren knowledege and conveniences it is truely becoming Harder to engage and audience and to have them suspend their disbelief, just like yourself. But as Obiwan & Yoda said you must let go, and then you will understand!! Oh as I've said before I try to remain neutral this best as possible on this subect. I've been doing Devils Advocate on both sides of the subject as can be seen by my many posts. I never said my "Solution" was perfect, a rule, or law, or that it would even be exceptable to everyone. I just gave the best possible reponses I could give and the my best answers I could based on and qouted from the written material.

[Chronicle]

wow this is getting to be hot debate. can we get a page 3?

[Scorpion Leader]

wow this is getting to be hot debate. can we get a page 3?

I hope not I'm tired already!!

[Vrykolas2k]

It's simple.
Phase Weapons do MD damage to MDC stuff, like cyborgs and robots, and SDC to SDC stuff like most people. They'd do HP damage to things like vampires and were-wolves.
No reason to be an obtuse pedant, that's just the way the things are designed to work in the game.
It's simple, and it's fair.
There's no reason to assign SDC and HP to a cyborg, as they're MDC beings.
It doesn't say anywhere in the creation of a 'borg character to come up with SDC and HP, it clearly states that they're now MDC.

[say652]

like this ruling. my solution was to find a different gm to play with.lol. nothing like spending weeks designing a cool borg to have them backstabbed by a phase knife in a coalition bar. man i hate cheese

[MaxxSterling]

Aside from the cyborg rule, which I feel is dumb. I think that phase beamers should be able to kill a cyborg in 1 or 2 shots... why not? I always thought that the difference between phase beamers and phase swords was completely garbage and made no sense whatsoever. No point in arguing this stuff, if K.S. actually made a ruling, then that's what we go with. If you really don't like the ruling that much, then "house rule" it... And I cannot stand house rules, or just play a different game altogether. Or just avoid cyborgs and PC's and NPC's in your games.

[Nightmask]

like this ruling. my solution was to find a different gm to play with.lol. nothing like spending weeks designing a cool borg to have them backstabbed by a phase knife in a coalition bar. man i hate cheese

Your GM can headshot that cool Special Forces character you just built when he takes his helmet off for a drink of water too, bad GM are the problem in such cases not the fact a character has a vulnerability.

[say652]

like this ruling. my solution was to find a different gm to play with.lol. nothing like spending weeks designing a cool borg to have them backstabbed by a phase knife in a coalition bar. man i hate cheese

Your GM can headshot that cool Special Forces character you just built when he takes his helmet off for a drink of water too, bad GM are the problem in such cases not the fact a character has a vulnerability.[/quote
still like the idea of an mdc being taking md from the weapon as the book says. and yes i have had my cool spec ops soldier sniped when taking a drink.lol

[PhellaOne]

Except that Kevin S. Himself in an offical FAQ said that Borgs are immune to those kinds of problems, and that's why it was added into RUE.

Yes, it dosn't make any logical sense. it's a rule that exists only for game balance.

Afraid I can't see how it could balance things when it's inherently unbalanced and illogical. What were there so many people running around with Phase weapons for no justifiable reason that Borgs got to be a special case of being immune to a weapon that they should be most vulnerable to?

I have to side with Nightmask on this one. I don't like "nerfing" in any form and this seems like a "nerf" rule to me. As with anything else in role-playing, do what suits you and your group. As powerful as cyborgs can be, it's nice to use as a plot obstacle that the cyborg has to deal with. I know this is just a game, but I'm of the camp that "Life isn't fair and that unfairness adds flavor to my games", reflecting reality whenever possible. Just my opinion.

[PhellaOne]

I have to agree, otherwise, whats to stop someone from gathering an army and stomping the central alliance.

Superior tactics (they are a militocracy), personal force fields (remember Naruni, the arms manufacturer?), and the fact that as (COMBAT!) cyborgs they still have an impressive array of offensive/counter-offensive capabilities at their disposal. It isn't that hard to make up for it. Creatures have been getting by with lethal vulnerabilities since the beginning of Palladium Books (vampires, were-creatures, demons, deevils, etc...). I wouldn't "water down" the lethality of a cool concept such as Phase Beamers. But, to each their own.

[Captain Shiva]

What I do is this:Give FCBs normal hit points and SDC,and anything that bypasses MDC body armor,does half damage,unless the description says otherwise.

[Chronicle]

The symbosis between man and machine. The brains electrical currents have direct control of the cyborg body. In essence making an extension of the character. A hard situation to work for or against when it comes to phase beamers. I stand by my choice, if only for the sake of the game's balance.

I will quote myself on this, since this is how i firmly believe it can be explained. Grafting tissue wouldn't be enough, i would rule that it would have to be controlled from a biological component.

Bio armor would apply since the whole thing is alive.

[Damian Magecraft]

BAH...
simplest thing is the P-beam does damage to the borgs shell/systems (but not to any added on armor).
How is that a problem?

[Nightmask]

I think we need a Burster in here to extinguish the flame wars.
The basic problem here is C.J Carella's wonderfully unbalanced writing. Most of the things in Phase World are grossly overpowered in context of any other Megaverse. The only place they're not is in Phase World where everything else is just as crazy. I think it's funny that everyone is so obsessed with canon about Phase Beamers when they are a microscopic problem compared to Phase Fields(1/10th damage), or Gravitonic Technology(rail guns without the weight, kick, noise or any power source), or Psionic Crystal Technology(makes any psychic way more dangerous). So an unlucky Borg eats it from a head shot from a Phase Beamers(or area of effect from the SAW version), everyone has weaknesses, and Borgs normally don't have many. Did anyone else notice the two borgs in the book aren't that worried? The Repo bots have force fields and the Wolfen Quatoria has 100 S.D.C skin to absorb the damage first. Then, Phase Weapons are rare outside Phase World and can only be repaired there, so disarm him or destroy his gun. A good GM would make any Phase Equipment rare, because the borg wouldn't have a good day looking down the business end of a Multi-Rifle from a Phase Field wearing Silverhawk exoskeleton either. The borg must also not have any magic force fields, magic wielding friends, be in a magic circle or any number of other things. Seriously, this is the same book with Cosmo-Knights in it, Rifts is unbalanced. You could just as easily get shot in the head by an ATL-7 wielding NPC(I love you C.J Carella).
Borgs already have many problems fitting in with Rifts. How do you determine the magic resistance or H.P of something with no P.E? Death Bolt? Negate Mechanics? Telemechanics? Transformation magic? Where does their power source come from? Is it nuclear? Then why can't it power weapons? How can they be robot sized and mechanical and not have robot P.S? Why can any human with enough physical skills be stronger? I think K.S needs to really flush out these ideas before slapping adhoc bandaids on 15 years later, I always hate "just because" rules. If it's broken fix it before printing it and selling it(and 20 more reprintings).
Machine People really have the same problems too. Although it seems by the description you would just take it off their main M.D.C. You could just as easily say no because it doesn't work on robots. I don't buy that Nano-machine cells idea, if it doesn't hurt micro-processors on a robot why on a Machine Person? Gotta love a robot P.S artificial intelligence that eats metal, doesn't breathe and has no I.S.P and P.P.E but ISN'T a robot.
I'd say go with the damage in both cases though. Phase Weapons are psuedo-magical, they can already hurt vampires despite no other energy weapons being able to. Those in a panic need to just avoid killer(or overly rewarding) G.Ms. Any equipment in game is just as easily lost as won. Just be think twice the next time the G.M says "Sure we can bring in some Phase World tech...."

I think you're missing the point that Phase World is supposed to be vastly more powerful in comparison to most other Rifts settings. It's a setting filled with galactic powers that have been around far longer than humanity has existed on Earth and had sufficient time to develop technologies Earth hasn't been able to even dream of as yet and take those Earth has dreamed of much farther than it's had time to take them. The equipment should easily stand out over what you can find for the most part on Rifts Earth and elsewhere, perhaps not curb stomp level in most cases but certainly 'Damn I wish I had THAT!' levels of power.

[Nightmask]

I think you may be confused, that is what I was trying to say, that Phase World is supposed to be vastly more powerful than the rest of Rifts and that Phase Beamers are just that powerful, and it's working as intended Or am I misunderstanding you?

The choice of how you said it sounds more like a complaint about the power levels from the Phase World books, at least based on my general experience. I think you also left out a very simple solution existed by simply offering up internal phase shields to protect the cyborgs brain since even the simplest force field stopped phase beams rather than something as absurd as a non-living robotic shell becoming somehow alive for no other reason than you've got some brain tissue connected to the machine when told phase tech ignores such material.

[Nightmask]

JUST Remember this is My solution to the problem and my opioin and may not be the same as yours.

no, you're right, that is the only solution, the rest of the people are diging up nonsensical trolls because they want to increase their post count up.

Calling people who disagree with you nonsensical trolls only out to increase their post count is very bad form, you don't have a claim on what constitutes the only valid solution (and clearly don't because there are other options at least as valid) nor do you get to speak so dismissively of their options or slap such negative labels on them for disagreeing with you.

[Nightmask]

this topic has come up Numerous times in the past, it's been given an official ruling before, and by god sakes, it shall so remain.

Last I checked there is no divinity involved and certainly no one has to go along with anything they find ridiculous or absurd, of which 'cyborgs are special and non-living machines become alive when you hook some brain tissue up to it' most assuredly is. THAT is the only actual official ruling that shall ever remain so.

[Nightmask]

actually the whole cybernetics and bionics being alive is the whole reason you can't use telemechanics on them, and why bursters can still generate their psi powers through artificial limbs.

You're free to have that opinion, simply not to insist that no one's free to hold a differing opinion.

[flatline]

You might find this hard to believe, but some of us feel that treating bionics and/or cybernetics as being alive in any context, be it phase weapons, psionics, magic, or whatever is ludicrous.

If I snip a wire in your cybernetic arm, you don't get to save.
If I use some psionic or magic power to suppress the electric signal in that wire, why would you even get a chance to save, let alone be immune to the attempt?

Rules that exist only to preserve some arbitrary game balance and have no other rational explanation have no value to me.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

You might find this hard to believe, but some of us feel that treating bionics and/or cybernetics as being alive in any context, be it phase weapons, psionics, magic, or whatever is ludicrous.

If I snip a wire in your cybernetic arm, you don't get to save.
If I use some psionic or magic power to suppress the electric signal in that wire, why would you even get a chance to save, let alone be immune to the attempt?

Rules that exist only to preserve some arbitrary game balance and have no other rational explanation have no value to me.

--flatline

Particularly when you consider how contrarily cybernetics and bionics are considered to interfere with magical and psionic energies of the person possessing them because they're unliving machines yet they're considered alive to the specialized energies of phase weapons that can only harm living things.