P.P.E. Channeling

[Rpgpunk]

Is P.P.E. Channeling in anyone elses opinion worth using? I've been reading up some on it, and thinking about using it.

Also can anyone tell me which Rifter it was printed in?

[Dustin Fireblade]

For players yes, and it's in Rifter #21.

[Rpgpunk]

Thanks, I'll have to check that out.

..................

Ok, checked it out.

I know you speed through PPE faster which is the disadvantage, but doesn't make the mage almost to powerful?

[Shadowdance]

I think for simple spells like energy bolt and things of the like that channelling helps immensly since you dont have to take an action to cast the spell if your playing a mage and your getting attacked by a swordsman channelling can make sure that you don't get rocked quickly. Test it out and see if you like how it runs some people I game with dont particularly like the channelling rules, I for one think it's a nice twist in the game. But hey some people like what others don't eh? Thought I would add my two cents on this thread

[Svartalf]

Good for you, but they're houserules. Just because palladium ditched the old magic combat rules and decided to change guns and psioncis so that they're equivilent to hand to hand doesn't mean magic should be as well. I honestly think they only started dumbing everything down like this for Rifts which leaked into all the new 'megaversal' second editions.

Could you be more specific Tyciol?

Personnally, I'm still looking for a good compromise between the traditional (and still official, since they did not change between the RMB and the BoM), where a mage is really in trouble and has to be protected major way as soon as you start measuring time in melee rounds... and the PPE chanelling optional rules that *do* let a mage do some combat casting, but actually get *very* powerful once said mage has risen some levels. somebody actually posted me an alternate system, but I'll be ù%*£$§!ed if I remember where I put the stuff. the system allowed for quick casting, but demanded some recovery time, more or less equivalent to the casting time in the standard rules.

[MADMANMIKE]

Good for you, but they're houserules. Just because palladium ditched the old magic combat rules and decided to change guns and psioncis so that they're equivilent to hand to hand doesn't mean magic should be as well. I honestly think they only started dumbing everything down like this for Rifts which leaked into all the new 'megaversal' second editions.

..Can you reword this? Are you saying that Palladium created the PPE Channelling rules and that dumbed down the game? Or are you refering to the changes from First edition revised to second edition that included PPE in the first place? PPE was introduced in Beyond the Supernatural, and took out the arbitrary nature of spell casting, ie, "X" spells per day.

..While you're clarifying, please explain what you see as wrong with matching physical attacks with spell casting, which by all accounts requires physical memory to do...

..Maybe you could even give your reasons for not liking Rifts...

-Mike >8]

[Nekira Sudacne]

am I the only one who read PPE channeling and thought "this is going to cause as many problems as it solves?"

trying it confirmed my sucpicions. hence I do not use it.

[Svartalf]

am I the only one who read PPE channeling and thought "this is going to cause as many problems as it solves?"

trying it confirmed my sucpicions. hence I do not use it.

well... I did notice that with such rules a high level mage becomes *very* dangerous... at least until he has used up all his PPE, which can be rather fast under this system.

on the other hand, PPE channeling *does* have the advantage of allowing a mage to cast spells during combat without having to be hidden somewhere out of sight, preferably 100 m away from the fight and with an Impenetrable Barrier of Goons/ Friends to shield him from malintentioned foes.

This system is far from perfect, but I can't underrate its advantages in easing the gameflow

[Veknironth]

Well, the idea that you burn through PPE more quickly is a non-factor. IT doesn't dissipate or anything. The Channeling just gives you the chance to use the PPE more quickly. I think the reason Tyciol dislikes the physical aspect of Channeling is that the original method is independant of physical attacks. It's been posited that there should be some other factor that allows how many spells you can cast per round. For example, you start with 2 "magic actions" per round and gain one each time you gain a bonus to spell strength. Of course, that can complicate things when you mix attacks with spell attacks.

-Vek
"IT makes mages lethal."

[MADMANMIKE]

Well, the idea that you burn through PPE more quickly is a non-factor. IT doesn't dissipate or anything. The Channeling just gives you the chance to use the PPE more quickly. I think the reason Tyciol dislikes the physical aspect of Channeling is that the original method is independant of physical attacks. It's been posited that there should be some other factor that allows how many spells you can cast per round. For example, you start with 2 "magic actions" per round and gain one each time you gain a bonus to spell strength. Of course, that can complicate things when you mix attacks with spell attacks.

-Vek
"IT makes mages lethal."

..So basically he's one of those people that took the loophole of not taking a hand to hand skill, and now that the best rules depend on having one, his character is out of the loop.... That's what it sounds like to me.

..I guess the lesson is to not take shortcuts....

-Mike >8]

[Rpgpunk]

Good for you, but they're houserules. Just because palladium ditched the old magic combat rules and decided to change guns and psioncis so that they're equivilent to hand to hand doesn't mean magic should be as well. I honestly think they only started dumbing everything down like this for Rifts which leaked into all the new 'megaversal' second editions.

..Can you reword this? Are you saying that Palladium created the PPE Channelling rules and that dumbed down the game? Or are you refering to the changes from First edition revised to second edition that included PPE in the first place? PPE was introduced in Beyond the Supernatural, and took out the arbitrary nature of spell casting, ie, "X" spells per day.

..While you're clarifying, please explain what you see as wrong with matching physical attacks with spell casting, which by all accounts requires physical memory to do...

..Maybe you could even give your reasons for not liking Rifts...

-Mike >8]

The old magic combat rules, if I'm thinking of the same ones that Tyciol is, gave spellcasters extra magic attacks as they increased in levels, and were laid out like the Hand to Hand skills in the books now. So at level 1 you could cast 2 spells per melee, and then at level 4 or something it would say you gain one additional magic attack/casting per melee. This kept spell attacks and physical melee attacks independant of each other.

Also, just to point out, Palladium didn't create the PPE Channeling rules at all, they are fan-made. The official rules is still "2 low level spell attacks per melee", always, regardless of any levels or bonuses.

Yeah PPE Channeling is optional.

[MADMANMIKE]

Good for you, but they're houserules. Just because palladium ditched the old magic combat rules and decided to change guns and psioncis so that they're equivilent to hand to hand doesn't mean magic should be as well. I honestly think they only started dumbing everything down like this for Rifts which leaked into all the new 'megaversal' second editions.

..Can you reword this? Are you saying that Palladium created the PPE Channelling rules and that dumbed down the game? Or are you refering to the changes from First edition revised to second edition that included PPE in the first place? PPE was introduced in Beyond the Supernatural, and took out the arbitrary nature of spell casting, ie, "X" spells per day.

..While you're clarifying, please explain what you see as wrong with matching physical attacks with spell casting, which by all accounts requires physical memory to do...

..Maybe you could even give your reasons for not liking Rifts...

-Mike >8]

The old magic combat rules, if I'm thinking of the same ones that Tyciol is, gave spellcasters extra magic attacks as they increased in levels, and were laid out like the Hand to Hand skills in the books now. So at level 1 you could cast 2 spells per melee, and then at level 4 or something it would say you gain one additional magic attack/casting per melee. This kept spell attacks and physical melee attacks independant of each other.

Also, just to point out, Palladium didn't create the PPE Channeling rules at all, they are fan-made. The official rules is still "2 low level spell attacks per melee", always, regardless of any levels or bonuses.

Yeah PPE Channeling is optional.

..Thanks guys, that's what I was alluding to in my question for tyciol who just ranted without clarification and never returned.

..And incidentally, the old system for spell casters was one spell per melee until fifth level when one additional spell attack was gained for a grand total of 2 spell attacks per melee.

..They system that everyone seems to be lamenting is from Heroes Unlimited Revised and Transdimensional TMNT; Heroes is still available for the rock bottom price of 10 bucks at the Sale Items section of Palladium's online catalog.

-Mike >8]

[Sureshot]

Good for you, but they're houserules. Just because palladium ditched the old magic combat rules and decided to change guns and psioncis so that they're equivilent to hand to hand doesn't mean magic should be as well. I honestly think they only started dumbing everything down like this for Rifts which leaked into all the new 'megaversal' second editions.

P.P.E. channeling is not official it's just something an optional rule a fan made that many of use like. Also have you never used houserules? I like P.P.E. channeling you don't I guess when can agree to disagree. Make sure you know the rules when you post. That way your arguments have more validity

[Svartalf]

as has already been said, PPE channelling is just a glorified House Rule. Of course, it has the double special status of
1) having been found interesting enough by the Pally staff that it was published in the Rifter.

2) having rapidly gaind acceptance from a vast number of gamers.

neither of which makes it official ... at least for now... I do suppose that when they publish Rifts, 2ed or the Revised BoM, they might officially adopt it... Rifter publication is a 1st step, and it does mesh well with the combat system.

Meanwhile... well people can use it or not, as the GM feels like, and what's the use of getting bad blood over it?

[Rpgpunk]

I could of sworn that Kevin said that everything in the Rifter was official.

Anyways, even if it is official or not it is still optional and you don't have to use it. Hell use the rules from 1st ed if thats what you want to do.

[dark brandon]

I could of sworn that Kevin said that everything in the Rifter was official.

Anyways, even if it is official or not it is still optional and you don't have to use it. Hell use the rules from 1st ed if thats what you want to do.

Nothing in rifter is official until it's posted in an official world book

PPE channeling is great for younger mages. At higher levels (especially in the palladium game) it can make them far far powerful.

I use it, but make it so PPE channeling is only useable for level 1-6 spells. Level 7 and up have to use the rules.

[Svartalf]

I could of sworn that Kevin said that everything in the Rifter was official.

which is precisely why every issue of the Rifter has a nice big reminder about optional and unofficial rules and material at the end of the table of contents?

[MADMANMIKE]

I don't read this forum as often as some others, sorry for my lack of response (I lose track of all the threads I comment in). Freefall managed to clarify my point, thank you. Memorax, I know the rules, and my arguements are valid, I'm confused as to which part of them you're attacking.

Madmanmike: I'm referring from the change from first to second where magic attacks started at 2 and increased each level, to just a static 2 (with the exception of some supernatural creatures). I don't miss the spells per day, just the spells per melee... Physical actions to me are how fast you move and react with a jerk-action response, which has nothing to do with carefully shaping PPE into a magic spell using mystic incantations. As for Rifts, I do like it. I just don't like the fact that (as far as I know, I could be wrong) they had to make magic a static 2 per melee, based on some assumption that a gamer couldn't divide and round his melee attacks by any more than half.

What would work splendidly in my opinion is using the PPE channeling rules, but instead of relating them to attacks per melee, relating them to MAGIC attacks per melee.

..Right, well, as I said, first edition Palladium Fantasy had no such rule. It was 1 spell per melee until fourth level at which point it became two spells per melee until the end of time. The chart with a 2 at first level and an increase at each level was for number of spells per day.

..Read my post above; either you misread the first edition rules (from your last post I'd say that's the case) or you were using the rules from Heroes Unlimited Revised.

..My point is, you can't dismiss PPE channelling as house rules as though that makes them inferior when by your own admission you haven't played by the oficial rules yourself.

-Mike >8]

[Zenvis]

My house rules go as follows....

First Power Channeling is how magic is played.

Second magic is divided into three categories for time consumption.
- levels 1-5 are one action attacks (assuming they have the P.P.E.)
- levels 6-10 are two action attacks (again asuming they have the P.P.E.)
- levels 11-15 are thre action attacks (see above)

Third, characters start with only 4 attacks per melee but can gain new attacks per level (something that Power Channeling didnt go over) at levels 5, 10, and 15.

All additional bonuses come out of the O.C.C.

[Sureshot]

[quote="Tyciol"]I don't read this forum as often as some others, sorry for my lack of response (I lose track of all the threads I comment in). Freefall managed to clarify my point, thank you. Memorax, I know the rules, and my arguements are valid, I'm confused as to which part of them you're attacking.

Freefall managed to clarify my point, thank you. Memorax, I know the rules, and my arguements are valid, I'm confused as to which part of them you're attacking.

I was not attacking you I was posting a counterpoint. If it seemed I was attacking I did not mean to. It just that you seemed to be taking it too personally. You don't like P.P.E. channeling thefrore it must be bad. I could be wrong but was the feeling I got.

Or as MADMANMIKE wrote:

"My point is, you can't dismiss PPE channelling as house rules as though that makes them inferior when by your own admission you haven't played by the oficial rules yourself. "

[Lukterran]

I could of sworn that Kevin said that everything in the Rifter was official.

Anyways, even if it is official or not it is still optional and you don't have to use it. Hell use the rules from 1st ed if thats what you want to do.

Almost everything in the game is up to GM interpretation and as long as it is fun for you it is official. Lots of people like "set in stone rules". But I don't really believe that Kevin is much of a rules lawyer. And yes PPE channeling is optional.

I've played with it. It not that bad, but. It does make spell casters in combat that much more lethal. I don't really think that they need any more help then they already have in that area. A high level mage can normally take out dozens of Men at Arms of equal level which is already a huge advantage. Personally I liked the old system of gaining spell attacks as you increased in level. It wasn't that hard to figure out that if you have 4 hand to hand attacks and 2 spell actions and you cast one spell you have 2 hand to hand actions left. When the faction was odd you either didn't cast the spell or the incantation just carried over into the next melee.
And the PPE costs for spells doesn't always equate to make since with PPE channeling. (Example: Negate Magic, cost 30 PPE. You probably in most cases want that spell to go off fairly quickly. Then you have spells like Oracle and Time capsule that have the same PPE cost, 30 but logically they should require a little more time to cast?)

[J. Lionheart]

..Can you reword this? Are you saying that Palladium created the PPE Channelling rules and that dumbed down the game? Or are you refering to the changes from First edition revised to second edition that included PPE in the first place? PPE was introduced in Beyond the Supernatural, and took out the arbitrary nature of spell casting, ie, "X" spells per day.

..While you're clarifying, please explain what you see as wrong with matching physical attacks with spell casting, which by all accounts requires physical memory to do...

..Maybe you could even give your reasons for not liking Rifts...

-Mike >8]

I'm not Tyciol, but I agree with him and will post my own replies to these:

1) The X spells per day isn't arbitrary, it is in fact the other primary way of keeping track of magical expenditure that I am familiar with in fantasy. Things like the Dragonlance book series (the name Raistlin ring a bell?) handled it in this sort of way. I don't have a problem with PPE, I like it, but it's unfair to call spells per day arbitrary. Channeling definitely dumbed down the caster game. Without it, people playing a wizard or other caster had to be very careful, and think through combat. They don't walk around with lightning bolts smoldering in their fingers just waiting to go off. When I play a caster, I want them to have that disadvantage.

2) One's mental abilities have next to zero to do with one's physical combat abilities. Many of the smartest people I know are absolute klutzes and would probably drop their weapon as often as hit a person with it, and some of the most physically capable people I know are, to be frank, as dumb as rocks. Claiming one's mental ability to mold and control magic is based in any way on having some extra fast-twitch muscles seems absurd. Do not mix "Physical Memory" with "Muscle Memory."

3) Many of us do not like RIFTS because of it's power creep. Hurray, my untrained level 1 city-rat character can insta-kill that level 50 soldier with one touch from a vibro-knife, while that level 50 soldier couldn't hurt me if he wanted to because I'm wearing some stolen MD body armor and I trapped him away from his uber-weapons. Hmm, what's this? A pocket-sized grenade that does enough damage to destroy all of Hoover Damn at once? Joy. Oh, and don't worry about that incoming Multi-Warhead Nuclear missle, it would take like 6 of those, directly impacting with all warheads against my chest, to even make me worry about the strength of my armor. Stuff like that. RIFTS is a really great environment and concept, but they never should have introduced MDC. Now, every time a new environment or area is released, the stuff is even more powerful. It makes the powercreep in Everquest look tame.

[MADMANMIKE]

I'm not Tyciol, but I agree with him and will post my own replies to these:

1) The X spells per day isn't arbitrary, it is in fact the other primary way of keeping track of magical expenditure that I am familiar with in fantasy. Things like the Dragonlance book series (the name Raistlin ring a bell?) handled it in this sort of way. I don't have a problem with PPE, I like it, but it's unfair to call spells per day arbitrary. Channeling definitely dumbed down the caster game. Without it, people playing a wizard or other caster had to be very careful, and think through combat. They don't walk around with lightning bolts smoldering in their fingers just waiting to go off. When I play a caster, I want them to have that disadvantage.

..PPE increased the number of spells per day a magic user could do, but by no means made them unlimited. The X spells per day system [i]was[/i[ arbitrary. Arbitrary means it wasn't based on any logically deducable system, with just a random increase at each level. That's how it was. There's no reason to be offended here.

2) One's mental abilities have next to zero to do with one's physical combat abilities. Many of the smartest people I know are absolute klutzes and would probably drop their weapon as often as hit a person with it, and some of the most physically capable people I know are, to be frank, as dumb as rocks. Claiming one's mental ability to mold and control magic is based in any way on having some extra fast-twitch muscles seems absurd. Do not mix "Physical Memory" with "Muscle Memory."

..That's absurd. What is Physical Memory if not Muscle Memory? Magic is very much a physical thing, it's Psionics that come from the mind.

3) Many of us do not like RIFTS because of it's power creep. Hurray, my untrained level 1 city-rat character can insta-kill that level 50 soldier with one touch from a vibro-knife, while that level 50 soldier couldn't hurt me if he wanted to because I'm wearing some stolen MD body armor and I trapped him away from his uber-weapons. Hmm, what's this? A pocket-sized grenade that does enough damage to destroy all of Hoover Damn at once? Joy. Oh, and don't worry about that incoming Multi-Warhead Nuclear missle, it would take like 6 of those, directly impacting with all warheads against my chest, to even make me worry about the strength of my armor. Stuff like that. RIFTS is a really great environment and concept, but they never should have introduced MDC. Now, every time a new environment or area is released, the stuff is even more powerful. It makes the powercreep in Everquest look tame.

..What does Rifts have to do with anything? The example given at the beginning of the article is lined out as pretty much a fantasy setting. The terms are generic so as to make it more compatible with the megaverse, and of course there are Rifts notes to it; Rifts is the money maker. If you want to get something published in the Rifter you stand a much greater chance of doing so if you write it for Rifts.

..And maybe you should play Rifts with someone who knows how to play, because all of your examples of power creep there are exagerations.

-Mike >8]

[J. Lionheart]

/sigh. Understand I'm not trying to start a war here, but I'll answer these points in an effort to make clear an alternative view.

..PPE increased the number of spells per day a magic user could do, but by no means made them unlimited. The X spells per day system was arbitrary. Arbitrary means it wasn't based on any logically deducable system, with just a random increase at each level. That's how it was. There's no reason to be offended here.

It was written as a statement that the casting of a spell takes a toll on the body, and you could only take so much punishment in one day. As your body was trained and got used to it, you could take a bit more punishment. It's entirely logical. I'm not offended, but I will certainly debate anybody who says that it's illogical. It's exactly the same theory as SDC going up by level, just in set increments rather than random numbers (PPE).

..That's absurd. What is Physical Memory if not Muscle Memory? Magic is very much a physical thing, it's Psionics that come from the mind.

Physical memory is memory capacity. The ability to store great amounts of data requires a great deal of physical memory. Having an agile physical memory means you can access these stores quickly in your mind. Muscle Memory is very specifically a reaction that does NOT involve the brain, it is a physical action you can do automatically because you've repeated it so much you don't think about it anymore. I would not put magic in this category.

..What does Rifts have to do with anything? The example given at the beginning of the article is lined out as pretty much a fantasy setting. The terms are generic so as to make it more compatible with the megaverse, and of course there are Rifts notes to it; Rifts is the money maker. If you want to get something published in the Rifter you stand a much greater chance of doing so if you write it for Rifts.

..And maybe you should play Rifts with someone who knows how to play, because all of your examples of power creep there are exagerations.

-Mike >8]

What does RIFTS have to do with anything? You tell me. You asked why he didn't like it, I said why I don't, nothing more. I'd rather leaves RIFTS out of it myself, for as you picked up, I don't like it much. That however is no reason to insult me or my groupmates, and I'd rather stay away from the personal stuff.

Regards,

[Veknironth]

Well, I hated the original spells per day concept. You can case as many Globe of Daylight spells as you can Sanctuary spells? You have to be kidding me. PPE is much better. However, I do agree that it seems odd that by taking boxing, you have another spell attack per round.

-Vek
"Magic boxing?"

[Arthemus]

I guess my workaround is to just... have the spell go off the moment the wizard casts it, but he only gets two. I've never read anything that states that a wizard has to wait an action until the spell goes off. I think people are importing that from some other game. Our combat just goes one action at a time, round robin, so once we got to everyone's third attack, my wizard doesn't get one.

[zyanitevp]

I use the fast casting rules from the RUE- less math (I am fine with the math, but some of my players are not) and works very smoothly.