Mutant Animal Power Question(s) with more to follow

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Bear with me everyone, with the time change my 3rd shift work was an hour longer and I'm a bit frazzled as a result. Anyway,

I was reading my copy of AtB2 and looking at the different mutant animal powers. I came across the entries for Hibernation and Winter Torpor. After reading over them 3x I still don't get it. What playable benefit comes from these powers? Imagine the situation, "Ok guys, it's mid December and cold as (insert your favorite idiom). Bob and Sam, your characters are huddled around the campfire for warmth. Steve, your character...has no trouble at all falling deeply asleep" For something that costs Bio-E but doesn't offer any noticeable advantages, should it even be listed as a "power"?

My thought(s) (that I literally just came up with as I type) is that it should be an Automatic Ability. Seeing as it does nothing, you shouldn't have to pay to get it. It's just there for applicable characters.

Or make it a disadvantage (a type of reptile brain behavior) and earn some decent Bio-E from it. The later in year/colder the temperature the stronger the impulse to gorge yourself/put on weight or store food becomes, the character becomes very lethargic and sleepy and suffers skill/combat bonuses. Or in an extreme case, must roll to save vs involuntary deep sleep/semi-coma.

Your thoughts or questions?

PS I'll post other questions here as they occur to me. Right now I must sleep. Happy gaming all

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Really? No one has anything to say?

[Nightmask]

It does sound more like a disadvantage rather than an advantage, the character basically enters a helpless state when cold and otherwise doesn't really give them any bonuses. Not like ending up in freezing conditions where one needs to hibernate or die comes up all that often in games. Usually such a situation you'd have mainly characters without such an ability so they'd be doing their best to find warmth and shelter rather than just hide in a cave and hope nothing happens while they're chillin waiting for spring to come around.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Thank you Nightmask. That's the point I was going for. It doesn't do anything for you(that I can see) other than let you go to sleep easy when it's cold.

If they were made into disadvantages, what kind of Bio-E would you give them? Penalties? Any bonuses (save vs cold maybe?)

[Nightmask]

Thank you Nightmask. That's the point I was going for. It doesn't do anything for you(that I can see) other than let you go to sleep easy when it's cold.

If they were made into disadvantages, what kind of Bio-E would you give them? Penalties? Any bonuses (save vs cold maybe?)

I don't much care for Bio-E (it seems to really short-change the mutants and makes a number of character types impossible) but I'd just go and take the cost for it as an advantage and make it a bonus in turning it into a disadvantage just to keep it simple.

[glitterboy2098]

given that both hibernation and torpor are ways animals can survive extreme conditions by going into a state of greatly reduced physical and metabolic activity, it is likely Eric Wujick forgot that there was an environmental trigger to them, and assumed they'd be a survival power.

i can see two solutions to the issue. first is to treat them as a disadvantage, already discussed. the other would be to assume mutation disabled the automatic trigger, but gave the ability to consciously control it. that would let a character with either ability go into a state where they can survive for really long periods of time with little to no food.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Page 105 Deer and Elk
No listing is given under Natural Weapons for Antlers (either for Bio_E cost or damage)
They are listed later on as a vestigial trait. (I'm assuming at a reduced damage). Does anyone have this information or know where to tell me to find it?

Does anyone else think that the "knuckle hoof" power should be available to all hoofed animals? I mean they've got the natural material to mutate into it, so why only a few breeds?

[Soldier of Od]

Page 105 Deer and Elk
No listing is given under Natural Weapons for Antlers (either for Bio_E cost or damage)
They are listed later on as a vestigial trait. (I'm assuming at a reduced damage). Does anyone have this information or know where to tell me to find it?

Does anyone else think that the "knuckle hoof" power should be available to all hoofed animals? I mean they've got the natural material to mutate into it, so why only a few breeds?

It looks like Erick decided that he would limit deer and elk to seasonal antlers only. There is no option for them to purchase permanent antlers. The damage for their seasonal antlers is listed in the deer/elk vestigial disadvantage section. Compare to the moose, where it can purchase all-year-round antlers, or choose to make them seasonal. In both cases the character ends up with a net bonus of 10 Bio-E.

No. I don't believe that knuckle hooves should be available to all hoofed animals. The whole point of playing purebreeds is that you get access to new and special powers not available to others. You pay the price of less control over your character build in exchange for some more power or cool abilities. Would you make the Rhode Island Red's hard feather armour available to all chickens? Or the Bighorn's extra large horns available to all sheep? Then what's the point in playing a Red or a Bighorn?

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Page 105 Deer and Elk
No listing is given under Natural Weapons for Antlers (either for Bio_E cost or damage)
They are listed later on as a vestigial trait. (I'm assuming at a reduced damage). Does anyone have this information or know where to tell me to find it?

Does anyone else think that the "knuckle hoof" power should be available to all hoofed animals? I mean they've got the natural material to mutate into it, so why only a few breeds?

It looks like Erick decided that he would limit deer and elk to seasonal antlers only. There is no option for them to purchase permanent antlers. The damage for their seasonal antlers is listed in the deer/elk vestigial disadvantage section. Compare to the moose, where it can purchase all-year-round antlers, or choose to make them seasonal. In both cases the character ends up with a net bonus of 10 Bio-E.

No. I don't believe that knuckle hooves should be available to all hoofed animals. The whole point of playing purebreeds is that you get access to new and special powers not available to others. You pay the price of less control over your character build in exchange for some more power or cool abilities. Would you make the Rhode Island Red's hard feather armour available to all chickens? Or the Bighorn's extra large horns available to all sheep? Then what's the point in playing a Red or a Bighorn?

That's kind of odd (IMHO) that a moose would get year round antler options when they shed them yearly like deer.

I respect your opinion on the issue of knuckle hooves. I wasn't aware it was only available to purebreeds. Truthfully I'm not a big fan of the purebred idea. The idea of "you can be this type of animal, but you HAVE to build it this way" just doesn't seem right to me. Kind of like in the early days of the auto industry when they said, "you can have any color you like so long as it's black." One of the things I love about TMNT/AtB(1,2) is my freedom to choose to make my character (within the limits of that species ability) any way I please. Purebreds take that away. I'm not saying it's wrong or bad or should be done away with. Just that I'm not a big fan.

Thanks for your input.

[Soldier of Od]

Yeah, I guess it's kind of odd. Writer's prerogative I guess.

I can see why you don't like the limited purebreed builds. They're not for everyone; most people I think would prefer to make the character they want without restrictions. But most of them do actually have a lot of choices regarding powers and abilities, and I think they have great potential for role playing - the backgrounds really help to round out the After the Bomb world.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

The Snake Venom Resistance power provides all most 100% resistance to any venomous bite and poisoned weapons. How far do you extend this poison resistance? Do you treat your PC as pretty much immune to all poisons?

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

The Snake Venom Resistance power provides all most 100% resistance to any venomous bite and poisoned weapons. How far do you extend this poison resistance? Do you treat your PC as pretty much immune to all poisons?

Antlers are always seasonal, it's horns that are permanent for animals. So year round antlers is actually factually incorrect, but obviously Moose are always portrayed as having antlers, so that's probably what Erick was going for.

Sounds legit.

As for hibernation I agree that should be a vestigial disadvantage, but Winter Torpor is a lot more mild, and can be awakened easier, so I'd keep that as a power. It slows the characters metabolism, the body consumes less food and water, and doesn't need to hunt as often. In a cold climate, that adds up to some advantages.

I like this idea. Good explanation and reasoning

Hibernation being better but more difficult to wake up from does pose some challenges, so I'd give a character +15 Bio-E that takes it as a Vestigial Disadvantage, but it would be limited to certain animals as well.

Sounds good. And yes of course it'd be an exclusive disadvantage. Only to those animals that had hibernation listed to begin with.

Where in ATB2 did you find Snake Venom Resistance? I can't find it anywhere.

It's listed as a power for the Badger.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

No reply for how Snake Venom Resistance is handled?

[Soldier of Od]

No reply for how Snake Venom Resistance is handled?

It says 95% resistance, so I would roll percentile (instead of the normal roll to save vs. poison), and if you get 01-95 your badger is totally fine, but if he gets 96-00 he takes normal damage/effects.

And I would say that the 'any venomous bite' etc. follows on from the 'snake' bit, so I would rule that it only works against snake venom; any other animal venoms will have normal effects and are saved against as per the normal rules. I think if you start worrying about whether some lizard venoms or others are similar enough to snake to be included blah blah blah then it detracts from the flow of the game. Just keep it simple; snake venom only. Otherwise, why wouldn't they just call the power 'venom resistance'?

Hope that helps.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

No reply for how Snake Venom Resistance is handled?

It says 95% resistance, so I would roll percentile (instead of the normal roll to save vs. poison), and if you get 01-95 your badger is totally fine, but if he gets 96-00 he takes normal damage/effects.

And I would say that the 'any venomous bite' etc. follows on from the 'snake' bit, so I would rule that it only works against snake venom; any other animal venoms will have normal effects and are saved against as per the normal rules. I think if you start worrying about whether some lizard venoms or others are similar enough to snake to be included blah blah blah then it detracts from the flow of the game. Just keep it simple; snake venom only. Otherwise, why wouldn't they just call the power 'venom resistance'?

Hope that helps.

Thanks Odd. I understood how the save roll would go. I was mainly curious how you all played the resistance part where it says, resistance to any venomous bite, poisoned weapons, etc. That was my main ?. I interpret it as saying 'it is almost impossible (95%) to poison this character. I can follow your line of thinking about making it only snake venom. it does speed up and simplify things.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Next UP!

Worm Skin


I've read other threads about it, and even posted on one that seemed mostly dead. I wasn't able to find a good answer for either A). What it is (powers, adv, disadv, cost, etc.) or B). Where to go to look it up. I know it's mentioned in Rifter 29. But all it says is that it grants powers similar to Adv. Touch and Adv. Hearing. So what do you all do? When it says "worm skin' do you just toss in Adv. Hearing and Touch and then call it a day?

[Nightmask]

No reply for how Snake Venom Resistance is handled?

It says 95% resistance, so I would roll percentile (instead of the normal roll to save vs. poison), and if you get 01-95 your badger is totally fine, but if he gets 96-00 he takes normal damage/effects.

And I would say that the 'any venomous bite' etc. follows on from the 'snake' bit, so I would rule that it only works against snake venom; any other animal venoms will have normal effects and are saved against as per the normal rules. I think if you start worrying about whether some lizard venoms or others are similar enough to snake to be included blah blah blah then it detracts from the flow of the game. Just keep it simple; snake venom only. Otherwise, why wouldn't they just call the power 'venom resistance'?

Hope that helps.

Thanks Odd. I understood how the save roll would go. I was mainly curious how you all played the resistance part where it says, resistance to any venomous bite, poisoned weapons, etc. That was my main ?. I interpret it as saying 'it is almost impossible (95%) to poison this character. I can follow your line of thinking about making it only snake venom. it does speed up and simplify things.

Sounds like it's referencing all poisons naturally produced by living creatures that are injected by a bite (rather than passive in the flesh like puffer fish) or have been used to poison a blade, rather than all toxins like man-made VX Nerve Gas or Mustard Gas.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Sounds like it's referencing all poisons naturally produced by living creatures that are injected by a bite (rather than passive in the flesh like puffer fish) or have been used to poison a blade, rather than all toxins like man-made VX Nerve Gas or Mustard Gas.

Nightmask. So only injected via bite poisons? So if I eat a puffer fish or step on a amazon poison dart frog (right name?) I still suffer effects? But if they use the puffer venom or the dart frog secretions to poison a blow dart I'm ok?

I think it'd be easier to say, "you're safe from poison/venom (relative to a successful roll under 95) naturally occurring be it animal, plant, or fungal." Synthetic toxins, bacteria (not safe from a komodo dragon bite), viruses and other micro organisms can still ruin your day.

I'm not trying to find micro loopholes. honestly. trying to get a handle on how to play something that wasn't well described.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Next UP!

Worm Skin


I've read other threads about it, and even posted on one that seemed mostly dead. I wasn't able to find a good answer for either A). What it is (powers, adv, disadv, cost, etc.) or B). Where to go to look it up. I know it's mentioned in Rifter 29. But all it says is that it grants powers similar to Adv. Touch and Adv. Hearing. So what do you all do? When it says "worm skin' do you just toss in Adv. Hearing and Touch and then call it a day?

Waiting patiently for your thoughts.

[Nightmask]

Sounds like it's referencing all poisons naturally produced by living creatures that are injected by a bite (rather than passive in the flesh like puffer fish) or have been used to poison a blade, rather than all toxins like man-made VX Nerve Gas or Mustard Gas.

Nightmask. So only injected via bite poisons? So if I eat a puffer fish or step on a amazon poison dart frog (right name?) I still suffer effects? But if they use the puffer venom or the dart frog secretions to poison a blow dart I'm ok?

I think it'd be easier to say, "you're safe from poison/venom (relative to a successful roll under 95) naturally occurring be it animal, plant, or fungal." Synthetic toxins, bacteria (not safe from a komodo dragon bite), viruses and other micro organisms can still ruin your day.

I'm not trying to find micro loopholes. honestly. trying to get a handle on how to play something that wasn't well described.

I guess I need to clarify, as I meant taking injectable toxins like cobra venom and coating weapons with them and not taking something like puffer fish poison and applying it to a blade. But it gets fuzzy as to where to draw the line and why injectable toxins would be affected but not inherent toxins like puffer fish toxin, so including all naturally occurring biological toxins isn't too difficult to agree with.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I came up with another Animal Power/Ability/Human Feature question. Can a mutant animal with full speech still make the same noises as the unmutated form?

In other words, can my mutant lion still roar and make other liony noises like the wild ones do. Not understand or communicate obviously, but just make the same noises (accurately)

[keir451]

I came up with another Animal Power/Ability/Human Feature question. Can a mutant animal with full speech still make the same noises as the unmutated form?

In other words, can my mutant lion still roar and make other liony noises like the wild ones do. Not understand or communicate obviously, but just make the same noises (accurately)

To about the same extent that any human could, I guess. If you remember the CS Dog Pack stiil occasionally growled or whimpered, tho' as far as a roar is concerned that's a bit iffy. I, personally, do not know of anyone who can mimic a lion's or tiger's roar, but there could be some one out there so I can't totally rule it out.

[Nightmask]

I came up with another Animal Power/Ability/Human Feature question. Can a mutant animal with full speech still make the same noises as the unmutated form?

In other words, can my mutant lion still roar and make other liony noises like the wild ones do. Not understand or communicate obviously, but just make the same noises (accurately)

To about the same extent that any human could, I guess. If you remember the CS Dog Pack stiil occasionally growled or whimpered, tho' as far as a roar is concerned that's a bit iffy. I, personally, do not know of anyone who can mimic a lion's or tiger's roar, but there could be some one out there so I can't totally rule it out.

It wouldn't necessarily be a good thing to try it either, particularly frequently. The voice actors for Goku in Dragonball pretty much wrecked themselves doing all that repeated stressful vocal work and it wouldn't be any safer for the mutant lion to try roaring if it's mutation didn't still include vocal cords that can handle it.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Sounds like the 5 bio for Animal speech is a safe bet then. Also in my non-psi game it works as an oral/aural power not a mental one. So (let's use a canine pc) Rufus, sticks his head out of the tent and starts howling back at the wolves/coyotes. He's communicating, not just being a ****