flatline wrote:So, the two gems are different in a non-physical way. What is that difference? Near as I can tell, the difference is purely historical.
There's no logical difference between the two sets of gems, and there doesn't have to be.
Nor does your implied speculation that Time is the factor that makes the difference between a stone acceptable for the manipulation of a magical energies and one that isn't, hold any weight (at least, not officially).
There isn't any stated need for the Gems in question to be of a certain age, either; if that were the case and Time was a factor, one would expect that more recently-mined stones from deeper levels of sediment -and a resulting time difference of thousands to possibly millions of years between the stones in those levels -would be more powerful.....but they're not; they yield the same results in magical and alchemical processes.
You're still trying -unsuccessfully -to make logic apply to the illogical.
As far as I'm concerned, you're just trying to play dumb for the purposes of pushing a personal agenda.
For the rule to be non-arbitrary, that must be the case. However, no such difference has been posited in the books, this thread, or any previous thread on this same subject that withstands any non-trivial analysis.
The only difference that you CAN be given for the reason why Magic will "reject" the naturally-made stone but "accept" the artificially-produced-even-if-it-physically-reproduces-the-natural-stone-down-to-the-smallest-subatomic-detail stone......
....IS "just because."
Which is a cop out, not an explanation.
Irrelevant.
Whether or not you like the set-up of the way that mystical forces work in the Palladium Games setting, is of no consequence. THEY have set up the parameters of how Magic works in this setting to THEIR satisfaction, not yours...and as such, there are a whole lot of "it works 'just because' " effects going on all over the place.
No other explanation is necessary, and indeed any such explanation would be impossible to come up with, by the very nature of an energy source that has been explicitly described in multiple Palladium publications throughout the years as defying both logic and the laws of physics.
You've stated this several times as if you think you're actually making an argument for something. What you're really saying is that Palladium didn't bother to create a magic system that is more sophisticated than a list of spells and no underlying themes or principles as to how magic works.
I'm sure you'll state this exact same sentiment many more times before this thread finally dies out and it will continue to not be an argument.
It would seem that I'll have to repeat the same thing for as many times as it takes, until such time as this Thread either dies out...or a certain someone takes the Authors
at their word and accept their premise that they really did create an energy source that for the most part defies both real-world logic and in-game pseudo-science, even though it has a few internal sub-rules of its own.
Sorry, but "just because" will never be an answer. A more intellectually honest answer would be "I don't know".
A point that you don't seem to be capable of grasping. When the Authors say that Magical Effect works "just because," they really DO know why.
For Palladium Magic, the actual answer really
is "just because."
Or, I suppose, the answer could be alternatively worded to say, "this spell/ritual/scroll/potion has these requirements and achieves these effects because Magic 'wants' it to be that way."
WE are the ones telling YOU that your desire to have that which has been repeatedly stated to be non-sensical (Palladium Magic) make sense, is a futile task.
Since YOU are the one who keeps insisting that Palladium Magic conform to real-world logical progression, and/or the laws of physics, it is up to YOU to prove YOUR argument.
And I already have. Given the seeming impossibility that an internally consistent in-game mechanism exists that can make the stated rule work, the rule is a BAD RULE and should be tossed out along with all the extrapolation you guys have added to it since it specifically mentions just a couple of types of stones, yet you apply it to all stones that can be synthetically made.
The "internally consistent in-game mechanism" that exists for Palladium Magic is, "Magic in many/most cases 'wants' the sacrifice to be real, not man-made."
I'm comforted by the fact that you're so concerned about my well-being, but I'm well aware of the sad state of comic book physics and arbitrary power lists in the Palladium books.
And the Game Setting that has FICTIONAL powers but DOESN'T have 'comic-book physics' would be.....??
Claiming we can't reason about something is just another cop out.
And claiming that a force that is explicitly stated to be grounded in non-logical, non-reasonable processes......is bad reading comprehension.
If there are other settings whose fictional (magical) powers always follow some sort of real-world series of logical steps, that's the prerogative of other Authors.
Palladium isn't constrained by the rules of those other settings, just as those other Writers and Creators of other fictional settings aren't constrained to follow Palladium's rules.
The metaphysical laws of the setting are clearly different than those of the real world, but logic still applies to them.
Not even close.
Palladium Magic breaks the rules of physics and logic on a regular basis.
It breaks the rules of physics, sure. But where does it violate logic? It's certainly subject to cause and effect (cast spell + supply sufficient PPE == effect). When was the last time you had the spell effect take place before you cast the spell?
Remember what I and other people in previous said in previous Posts about how even Palladium Magic follows at least some internal rules?
It should have gone without saying that one of those internal rules is the process whereby PPE is exchanged/converted into a magical effect (and by the way: where Palladium Magic is concerned, even that isn't always a set-in-stone rule).
I don't require anything to make REAL-WORLD sense. I just require it to make GAME-WORLD sense.
You were already provided with multiple examples, in this very Thread, about how "consistent" Palladium Magic is in-game about requiring naturally-produced items and forces to cause supernatural effects.
You provided examples of RULES, not in-game mechanisms.
Could've sworn that the examples of the rules put forth were an illustration of how the mechanism works; that is to say, the rule ("Magic 'wants' real blood for you to create that Zombie") is the same as the in-game mechanism ("Magic, for most effects, 'wants' natural items, not man-made replicas, even if they're physically the same").
In fact, just about every rule provided is probably an example of a BAD RULE just like the synthetic gem rule. It does nothing to strengthen your non-existent argument except to demonstrate that there's lots of other rules that probably need to be fixed in order to preserve the integrity of the setting.
Get that perfect RPG of yours published so that we can all judge your
superior
system.
Until such time, I'll take Kevin's produced works over your trash-talk about how so much better of a Game Designer you are.
We have seen this internal in-game consistency in places as diverse as (amongst other things) the "Natural Materials As Armor Don't Affect Magic Users" rule, the "Silver Weapon Must Be At Least 85% Pure Silver To Harm The Vampire" rule, the "Artificial Beings Cannot Have PPE, No Matter How Advanced, Not Even The Machine People" rule, the "Vampires Are Completely Immune To The Effects of a Nuclear Detonation, But They'll Burn Up In Sunlight" rule, and of course the "Gems Used In The Construction Of TW Devices Must Be Naturally Made" rule.
Quoting (potentially bad) rules does nothing to address my argument.
But showing a clearly-established pattern does.
The in-game consistency of this particular facet of palladium Magic is blindingly obvious.....for anybody who doesn't have an agenda, that is. That the Authors are consistent across multiple examples shows that, in fact, they HAVE made a logically coherent game-world requirement for The Natural to affect The Supernatural, as opposed to The Artificial.
But it hinges on an arbitrary and indefensible definition of the idea of "man-made" or "natural" or "synthetic" that falls apart under any scrutiny at all. What is it about "man-made" things that make them unsuitable for magic? What is it about the origin of the thing that makes it work?
YOU aren't the one who gets to determine for Palladium Games what is "arbitrary" and what isn't -that is, unless they hadn't put forth any sort of ruling at all.
But they did.
Whether you like their parameters or not.
And just because you yell that YOUR definition should supplant THEIR definition, doesn't make it so.
I've stated this multiple times in different ways trying to get you and others to understand that quoting rules to me, which is all you've done, is irrelevant to my concern since rules that describe something that can't possibly make in game sense are, by definition, BAD RULES.
See above.
Contrary to your opinion, the stated-in-so-many-words rule about Natural Substances (but not Artificial Substances) being suitable for supernatural applications is actually quite prevalent throughout the books.
So what? Rules with no explanatory mechanisms are worthless.
The rule is the mechanism. Palladium Magic in many/most cases wants real (natural) materials to work with, not man-made (artificial) ones.
Again, just because you don't like the "just because" mechanic, that doesn't make it non-existent.
You could post 1000 more examples of rules and it would still be irrelevant to my concern. The rules should conform to the setting, not the other way around. If something can't be made to make sense within the game, then any rule that requires it should be thrown out since it is, by definition, a BAD RULE.
Why would you put the preservation of bad rules ahead of the integrity of the setting?
The rules aren't bad.
YOU just don't happen to like them.
Big big difference.
