My PC's may be mis-aligned.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Just looking for some GM feedback. But first a back story.
When I first started playing TMNT I was a pre-teen and it was the mid to late 1980's. This was the first role playing game I'd ever been involved with (and still a favorite) so I didn't have any preconcieved notions to go on. When we got to the part on alignments our GM read them to us carefully, doing his best to explain how each one worked. Well given the cultural time period, music I listened to and popular movies of the time, ALL of our characters( the GM's included) decided we wanted to Anarchists. We were a varied troupe of punk rock styled, beer guzzling, ultra violent mutant vigilanties. Our campaigns were action packed, run & gun, loot & shoot, hack, bash, and slash our way to victory fun fests that were chocked full of laughter and a catharsis of behavior that wouldn't ever be tolerated in my small midwestern town. It was GLORIOUS!

Now I'm in my mid 30's and am running with a new GM who comes from previous AD&D experience. While I've got to help him out with the rules, he's no stranger to putting together a story line or set of enounters. For his games I've made all new charachters that I gave the alignments of unprincipled and a made up one i call unscrupulous (a blend of unprincipled and anarchist).

Here's where I run into a problem. While I've read the descriptions and come to the conclusion (and tweaked in the case of unscrupulous) that these alignments match my characters mentality/outlook/world view, that isn't how they end up getting played. I try my best to think my way through the situations presented to me (maybe the GM isn't so clear at presenting the direction he wants the story to go), but what ends up happening is a whole scale slaughter/beatdown that we're so familiar with from those great side scrolling video games. Anyone who presents an aggressive front becomes a target and most of them end up dead or on the verge of death (that reminds me I need to look up the rules on when npc's lose consciousness). I'm afraid my play style would place all my pc's either at Anarchist, Miscreant, or somewhere in between. I have a HU PC (designed my own werewolf) that in his wolf form might even be Diabolic (but a nice one!).

Any advice? Should I keep a cheat sheet handy with the alignment rules on it to check my actions against? Should I re-align my characters? Or should I keep it like it is and take the XP hit whenever I do something out of alignment.

CLARIFICATION. I personally am not having any behavioral issues that need addressing. I'm talking about my in Game PC'ssd

Your thoughts are appreciated,
Nate

[drewkitty ~..~]

Humans are good at thinking they are doing good when they are being evil.

They are also good at compartmentalizing their morality. Where they do good (or not so bad) in/with the "US" crowd, and doing evil to the "THEM" crowd.

Just look at those who thought themselves to be Christens in the old south. Being good people to the white folk but heaping evil on their black slaves.

This happens even today, where there are people who think themselves good and act not bad in one crowd, but are diabolically evil when it comes to something else.

Note about the "Good" alinements: the parts about following the laws of the realm above all else is not what a truly good person would do. There are times when a nation's laws and culture have to be disobeyed to be a good person.


So cheat sheets about how you want to act for the game and real life would be in order.

[Killer Cyborg]

Humans are good at thinking they are doing good when they are being evil.

They are also good at compartmentalizing their morality. Where they do good (or not so bad) in/with the "US" crowd, and doing evil to the "THEM" crowd.

Agreed.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Drew kitty...2 things. First. WTH man? I was asking about in game advice regarding fictional role playing character behavior. Instead I get a discourse on sociology and morality. Secondly. Recommending and alignment cheat sheet for in game is what I was looking for. Suggesting I might need one IRL..kinda insulting. Just saying.

[The Dark Elf]

It's about fun.

In my experience everyones first charatcer is nearly also anarchist. It gives you the freedom to make virtually all choices. whenever we have played with an anarchist charater in the group they will at some point be some conflict with the other players characters (who are unprincipled or good usually). That is not necessarily a bad thing, just be prepared for it. I have even been killed by the the other players. It depends what you've done and how its played. But - if you like and enjoy anarchist then so be it. Ask the question: Is everyone else also still having fun even though Im anarchist? No, then there are no arguments against not being.

Anarchist IS selfish. It MAY be hard for the GM to involve your character in a side plot or adventure because there is no hook for you. You may not give two hoots about the villagers in trouble. There is no reward in it for you. But - I always use the "Well you are an adventurer and your "friends" are going off on this quest... (how often have you gone someowhere on a night out just cos the majority of your friends did and you went with the flow?).

Evil alignments are tricky. If I was GMing Id allow ONE person to be evil at a time and even then it would be likely that the other players would discover their evil acts and the miscreant would end of dead.
Ofc, an all evil adventure would be fun but I think a one-off.

These are ROLE playing games and it is fun to play something occasionally that is out of your comfort zone. Try playing the OTT ignoble Paladin with their code of chivalry! It can make for a nice change but keep the alignment description and code laws close to hand.

On the flip side to that, the right OCC and alignment must match the adventure. An anarchist thief who never gets a chance to use his skills is boring. A principled Paladin who doesnt get to destroy an evil and right a wrong is boring. That's why I usually ask to know the characters before Ive written the whole plot.

[ZorValachan]

Drew kitty...2 things. First. WTH man? I was asking about in game advice regarding fictional role playing character behavior. Instead I get a discourse on sociology and morality. Secondly. Recommending and alignment cheat sheet for in game is what I was looking for. Suggesting I might need one IRL..kinda insulting. Just saying.

Hmm I just took it as a character might be Scrupulous, but act Miscreant in certain situations.

What I would do as far as a cheat sheet. Make a copy of the Alignment text. Then write on it 1 to 3 one-word 'motives', such as Family, Justice, Power, etc. Follow the alignment normally. When a motive pops up in a decision, then you can 'bend' the alignment.

Such as your character is Scrupulous. He is NOT going to kill the punk that is trying to steal his wallet. He'll try to disarm him, then warn him. Disable him, etc. But now same situation and his motive is 'family' and the character's wife is with him. He then may beat the punk to near death and explain, "no one threatens my wife...No One."

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

So in the last game I played I tried hard to follow my alignment and not just be a ruthless killing machine. I tried using psychology and intimidation rather than violence to get info/cooperation from NPC's. I even went so far as to tell random thug #1 that he should stay put until I got back, "because if you run I'll find you. And when I find you I'm going to make you watch as I eat you. (vestigial disadvantage: carnivore)"

It didn't work. No one talked. Random punk #1 ran. They all died horribly, except for 2 of them. Those 2 were simply shot to death. 1 one was beaten into a bright red smear and random thug #1 took his own life via cyanide pill. I even offered him (not sure the right word..clemency?) in that if he told me what I wanted to know I wouldn't eat him.

Playing in character/alignment was fun up to the point of consistently being faced with uncooperative NPC's. For that I blame my GM. I'm trying to get info and advance the plot. All that I'm accomplishing is leaving a trail of death and destruction along the west coast of Mexico.

[Scott Gibbons]

In my experience, players do their best to get through a story/adventure doing what's necessary and/or whatever they like, and its up to the GM usually to enforce their alignments when needed. That having been said, if I have a player who actually wants to play his non-evil Character the way its written (a rarity in my 20 years of GMing, but a joy when they come along), then I as GM have to step up my game to a higher level to allow for that. I

Have a talk with your GM outside of game time. Bring up your concerns - that you want to play your character "a little more realistically" in that he's not a mad dog killer. In real life, most people, especially low-level flunkies, aren't going to choose death when given a chance to live unless they're fanatically dedicated to something. So either your GM is being A) unreasonable, B) the people/organization your fighting is a fanatical one, or C) your character is doing something to drive all the villians out of their minds with fear. A talk with the GM should help no matter what - he may not realize he's making all the NPCs act unrealistically (happens to the best of us), or he may give you some pointers on how to make your character less Mind-Numbingly Terrifying. Of course, if he gets all coy and mysterious, then you're up against a cult of fanatics - time to hit the research library instead of the low-level cultists!

Hope this helps.

[flatline]

Just ignore the alignments presented in the books. They don't acknowledge that people act different ways in different situations (i.e. a professional hitman might be the perfect husband and father).

Decide who you want your character to be play accordingly. If your character's alignment ever becomes relevant to the game mechanics, then allow the GM to decide for game mechanics purposes which alignment you are based on how you've been playing your character.

As a player, I usually just declare my character to be scrupulous, unscrupulous, or aberrant at the start of game play and I tell the GM to adjust my alignment however he sees fit and the only time a GM has actually adjusted my alignment was to move it from aberrant to scrupulous. The better GMs that I've played with have ignored alignments entirely.

Anyways, think of alignments as training wheels meant to help starting players learn to define and shape the personalities of their characters. They're certainly not something to stress over.

--flatline

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

C) your character is doing something to drive all the villians out of their minds with fear.

D. How to make your character less Mind-Numbingly Terrifying.

Hope this helps.

(C)Well it could be that he's a 4'6" Badger who's ripped out with muscles like the Incredible Hulk and is packing what equates to super human PS/Damage.

D. Do you think NOT putting my badger fist THROUGH the skulls of my opponents might help my image? Gotta start pulling punches I guess.

The more I think about it the more I think it's a lack on the Gm's part. Even for a random encounter thug they should have some personality or thought put into them. Regardless of my alignment the opponents i ran into this last mission had little else to say other than, "pay the toll or turn around gringo" and "Leave. Go now. The boss says you leave." That's why I ranted about playing in character/alignment and not getting anywhere. I could have saved my breath and some intimidation rolls and straight out slaughtered them if I knew they weren't going to be forth coming with any info.

[Blindscout]

I'd say keep up the new trend of trying to be less slaughterrific. Perhaps your GM just isn't used to it and needs time to adapt?

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

(and generally, Badgers are scary, scary creatures.)[/quote
Give the GM what he wants till it hurts, and the players swear off being psychopaths.

I could do that. I could go around slaughtering every living thing I saw until questioned about it only then to look at the GM and say, that's what you wanted right? what's why you kept tossing at me

if 10K = 1lvl then 200 goons * 50 ex for their demise. i'll be in lvl2 heaven sooner than you think.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Drew kitty...2 things. First. WTH man? I was asking about in game advice regarding fictional role playing character behavior. Instead I get a discourse on sociology and morality. Secondly. Recommending and alignment cheat sheet for in game is what I was looking for. Suggesting I might need one IRL..kinda insulting. Just saying.

If you look At what I said, and think about it you would find out that I was suggesting to make up how he would treat his "in group" and how he would treat "outsiders". And make up the cheat sheet to reflect those two aspects of how your char would treat those two different sets of people.


As for the IRL part, I was not leaving anyone out of it,....even me. Because if people want to live a good life (good as in being a good person) they need something to remind them to be good, because people tend to be evil if they do not strive to be good.

[Nekira Sudacne]

So in the last game I played I tried hard to follow my alignment and not just be a ruthless killing machine. I tried using psychology and intimidation rather than violence to get info/cooperation from NPC's. I even went so far as to tell random thug #1 that he should stay put until I got back, "because if you run I'll find you. And when I find you I'm going to make you watch as I eat you. (vestigial disadvantage: carnivore)"

It didn't work. No one talked. Random punk #1 ran. They all died horribly, except for 2 of them. Those 2 were simply shot to death. 1 one was beaten into a bright red smear and random thug #1 took his own life via cyanide pill. I even offered him (not sure the right word..clemency?) in that if he told me what I wanted to know I wouldn't eat him.

Playing in character/alignment was fun up to the point of consistently being faced with uncooperative NPC's. For that I blame my GM. I'm trying to get info and advance the plot. All that I'm accomplishing is leaving a trail of death and destruction along the west coast of Mexico.

try looking into things to bind them with? Handcuffs, ropes, tranquilizer darts?

My personal favorite is from Rifts to be fair, but it's a techno-wizard gun that shoots magic nets. I use the hell out of it constantly for my principled gunslinger. in most cases it's actually easier than blasting away all their MDC/SDC would be. especially since it replaces Magic Net's usual crappy 14 to dodge flat target with a strike roll they have to beat.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The real thing that makes enforcing alignment hard is that for most characters their alignment really has no bearing on anything. Unlike D&D, there are no easy sense alignment magics or buffs that target certain alignments. The only exceptions are a few OCC's have alignment requirements, and it determines what rune weapons will bond to them.

And since most games don't have PC's getting rune weapons, that's not much of an issue.

[The Dark Elf]

I feel alignments are a huge part of playing the role!

And in a ROLE playing game they have a massive impact on the game!

[Killer Cyborg]

I feel alignments are a huge part of playing the role!

And in a ROLE playing game they have a massive impact on the game!

Yup.

[Sir Dellis]

I feel alignments are a huge part of playing the role!

And in a ROLE playing game they have a massive impact on the game!

I totally agree here. Alignments open so many options in roleplaying and are guidelines to what "x" alignment will mostly like in a given situation. Playing in character = experience pts per the fancy chart in the main book.

[flatline]

I feel alignments are a huge part of playing the role!

And in a ROLE playing game they have a massive impact on the game!

I totally agree here. Alignments open so many options in roleplaying and are guidelines to what "x" alignment will mostly like in a given situation. Playing in character = experience pts per the fancy chart in the main book.

So you prefer that characters are played against the alignments in the books rather than the personality (however detailed) envisioned by the player?

--flatline

[Sir Dellis]

I feel alignments are a huge part of playing the role!

And in a ROLE playing game they have a massive impact on the game!

I totally agree here. Alignments open so many options in roleplaying and are guidelines to what "x" alignment will mostly like in a given situation. Playing in character = experience pts per the fancy chart in the main book.

So you prefer that characters are played against the alignments in the books rather than the personality (however detailed) envisioned by the player?

--flatline

when a player is designing the personality for their character, they should be taking alignment into consideration when they create the personality of the character...i do, my players do - i've rarely had players play outside of their alignment and when they have i've informed them after the session

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I'd have to say at it's very most basic core the idea behind my characters alignment (in regards to violence, murder) can be stated thusly; "I don't want to beat you up/kill you, however if you threaten me or my party/family then all bets are off. If you impede me from completing my goals, I'm going to force you to cease and desist"

Which would explain why so many goons have met a most violent end.

With that in mind would you say that my alignment (which I hybridized between unprincipled and anarchist) is correct? Or should I slide my carnivorous badger bad@$$ a little lower down the scale?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'd have to say at it's very most basic core the idea behind my characters alignment (in regards to violence, murder) can be stated thusly; "I don't want to beat you up/kill you, however if you threaten me or my party/family then all bets are off. If you impede me from completing my goals, I'm going to force you to cease and desist"

Which would explain why so many goons have met a most violent end.

With that in mind would you say that my alignment (which I hybridized between unprincipled and anarchist) is correct? Or should I slide my carnivorous badger bad@$$ a little lower down the scale?

That sounds pretty much spot-on Abberant. You have loyalty to "your side" and you don't activly wish harm on others but think nothing of killing or hurting them, no matter what reason they may be opposing you. even if that reason might be good from their perspective.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I'd have to say at it's very most basic core the idea behind my characters alignment (in regards to violence, murder) can be stated thusly; "I don't want to beat you up/kill you, however if you threaten me or my party/family then all bets are off. If you impede me from completing my goals, I'm going to force you to cease and desist"

Which would explain why so many goons have met a most violent end.

With that in mind would you say that my alignment (which I hybridized between unprincipled and anarchist) is correct? Or should I slide my carnivorous badger bad@$$ a little lower down the scale?

That sounds pretty much spot-on Abberant. You have loyalty to "your side" and you don't activly wish harm on others but think nothing of killing or hurting them, no matter what reason they may be opposing you. even if that reason might be good from their perspective.

Abberant?!! REallly? He's supposed to be modeled on that Whip Cracking Archaeologist from the movies. May be I've judged that character to softly or I've to harsh a view of Abberant.
Oh I wouldn't say I "think nothing of killing or hurting them." I think it's a combo of I have no K.o. roll (at least I don't think I do at 1st level) and with SuperHuman PS the damage is considerable.

[The Dark Elf]

I feel alignments are a huge part of playing the role!

And in a ROLE playing game they have a massive impact on the game!

I totally agree here. Alignments open so many options in roleplaying and are guidelines to what "x" alignment will mostly like in a given situation. Playing in character = experience pts per the fancy chart in the main book.

So you prefer that characters are played against the alignments in the books rather than the personality (however detailed) envisioned by the player?

--flatline

when a player is designing the personality for their character, they should be taking alignment into consideration when they create the personality of the character...i do, my players do - i've rarely had players play outside of their alignment and when they have i've informed them after the session

[The Dark Elf]

I'd have to say at it's very most basic core the idea behind my characters alignment (in regards to violence, murder) can be stated thusly; "I don't want to beat you up/kill you, however if you threaten me or my party/family then all bets are off. If you impede me from completing my goals, I'm going to force you to cease and desist"

Which would explain why so many goons have met a most violent end.

With that in mind would you say that my alignment (which I hybridized between unprincipled and anarchist) is correct? Or should I slide my carnivorous badger bad@$$ a little lower down the scale?

That sounds pretty much spot-on Abberant. You have loyalty to "your side" and you don't activly wish harm on others but think nothing of killing or hurting them, no matter what reason they may be opposing you. even if that reason might be good from their perspective.

Abberant?!! REallly? He's supposed to be modeled on that Whip Cracking Archaeologist from the movies. May be I've judged that character to softly or I've to harsh a view of Abberant.
Oh I wouldn't say I "think nothing of killing or hurting them." I think it's a combo of I have no K.o. roll (at least I don't think I do at 1st level) and with SuperHuman PS the damage is considerable.

Your description sounds aberrant.

I would put the archaeologist at unprincipled.

One thing to remember is that killing is a more common thing in the medieval fantasy land of Palladium, especially of monster races and vice versa and there'd be some similar instances on Rifts Earth. Some morals are set by the laws you're used to. If a Timiro human killed an orc and a human, which one do you think he'd feel worse about killing? A coalition citizen kiling a D-Bee? Adventurers are also probably exposed more to death and killing and have their morals slightly numbed more than most.

[flatline]

The whip-cracking archeologist is probably Scrupulous (I have trouble telling Scrupulous and Aberrant apart, so your confusion isn't unusual).

The space-faring smuggler played by the same actor starts out Anarchist but is probably Unprincipled by the end of the first trilogy.

--flatline

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

The whip-cracking archeologist is probably Scrupulous (I have trouble telling Scrupulous and Aberrant apart, so your confusion isn't unusual).

The space-faring smuggler played by the same actor starts out Anarchist but is probably Unprincipled by the end of the first trilogy.

--flatline

Hhrrrmmm. I'm going to have to reread these descriptions better.

I'm playing him as what I call Unscrupulous (between Unprincipled and Anarchist). In simplest form I follow all the rules and law as closely as I can until they interfere with my goal. Oh he files and follows the necessary procedures first (backed by a big government agency). But sometimes you gotta break and enter to retrieve the artifact or desecrate the temple/shrine/etc to find the hidden map.

In regards to combat, remember when the archaeologist straight shot the guy with the sword in the market place. No fair fight, no subduing them, just yaaah whippy sword action Kabaam! end of whippy sword dude. And in the Cantina, the same actor shot first.

That's how I roll. 'Oh you want to pull a knife on me? Put up a road block and extort a toll? Intimidate me by blocking my path with your gun drawn?" Consider it ON!

Then the Superhuman PS/damage comes into play and it all turns to extra chunky salsa.

I'm a good guy dash it all! I have 2 PhD.'s, am a respected lecturer, professor, and field scientist! These goons need to either A. toughen up, B. answer my inquiries politely, directly, and honestly, or C. bugger off! (he's British).

Because seriously it's not my "policy" to kill everyone who opposes me (they're all bad guys. good guys get worked around not worked over). I give them chances to give me info, to cease all hostile/deterring activities against me. The gm never takes them down that road. Thus they all end up horribly horribly dead. Except for the ones that got shot, they're just regular dead.

[The Dark Elf]

Han is used as the description of someone unprincipled in the books - canon!

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'd have to say at it's very most basic core the idea behind my characters alignment (in regards to violence, murder) can be stated thusly; "I don't want to beat you up/kill you, however if you threaten me or my party/family then all bets are off. If you impede me from completing my goals, I'm going to force you to cease and desist"

Which would explain why so many goons have met a most violent end.

With that in mind would you say that my alignment (which I hybridized between unprincipled and anarchist) is correct? Or should I slide my carnivorous badger bad@$$ a little lower down the scale?

That sounds pretty much spot-on Abberant. You have loyalty to "your side" and you don't activly wish harm on others but think nothing of killing or hurting them, no matter what reason they may be opposing you. even if that reason might be good from their perspective.

Abberant?!! REallly? He's supposed to be modeled on that Whip Cracking Archaeologist from the movies. May be I've judged that character to softly or I've to harsh a view of Abberant.
Oh I wouldn't say I "think nothing of killing or hurting them." I think it's a combo of I have no K.o. roll (at least I don't think I do at 1st level) and with SuperHuman PS the damage is considerable.

Your probablly misjudging abberant too harshly yes. it can be harsh but by no means does it have to be harsh, just like being principled/lawful good dosn't mean you have to be lawful stupid.

But basing him on a certain arceologist is fine as long as you realize that he would probablly act differently if he had superpowers. of course Jones isn't afraid to kill, he's only a man, and he's fighting people with guns. what's more is he's usually fighting Nazi's and evil cultists, so he knows a fair bit about them being bad guys.

BUT, what you said, is that dispite being strong enough to easially subdue people, he will still just kill them. You don't even need a KO ability to subdoe them? You could simply target/break bones, or better yet, force them to surrender (Assuming your GM isn't the kind that has all badguys fight to the death for no reason, if so, the problem is your GM), or even find nonleathal things.

It's actually a big difference. that whole "With great power comes great responsibility" crap. Your strong enough to bench press an SUV, you don't get to act like a guy with normal strength does and claim the same moral equivlency. When the Arceologist punched a guy, he knew he'd get up again. your victems likely wont, and if he was as strong as your character is, don't you think that maybe he would employ different stratagies?

To put it more simply, if a fairly average person went around getting into bar brawls and could punch people/hit them upside the head with metal chairs and laugh it off later, that's could be unprincipled or even scrupulous so long as the culture in the area didn't look badly on casual fights. But if someone with a PS of 50 does that, then suddenly that veers straight into evil. it's not a fair fight and you could easilly cripple those you don't kill.

I'm not saying think of it like a four color/comics code hero, you can kill and still be good, but you have to understand your character is essentially bringing a machinegun to a fistfight. You can't call it equivlent.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Your probablly misjudging abberant too harshly yes. it can be harsh but by no means does it have to be harsh, just like being principled/lawful good dosn't mean you have to be lawful stupid.

But basing him on a certain arceologist is fine as long as you realize that he would probablly act differently if he had superpowers. of course Jones isn't afraid to kill, he's only a man, and he's fighting people with guns. what's more is he's usually fighting Nazi's and evil cultists, so he knows a fair bit about them being bad guys.

BUT, what you said, is that dispite being strong enough to easially subdue people, he will still just kill them. You don't even need a KO ability to subdoe them? You could simply target/break bones, or better yet, force them to surrender (Assuming your GM isn't the kind that has all badguys fight to the death for no reason, if so, the problem is your GM), or even find nonleathal things.

It's actually a big difference. that whole "With great power comes great responsibility" crap. Your strong enough to bench press an SUV, you don't get to act like a guy with normal strength does and claim the same moral equivlency. When the Arceologist punched a guy, he knew he'd get up again. your victems likely wont, and if he was as strong as your character is, don't you think that maybe he would employ different stratagies?

To put it more simply, if a fairly average person went around getting into bar brawls and could punch people/hit them upside the head with metal chairs and laugh it off later, that's could be unprincipled or even scrupulous so long as the culture in the area didn't look badly on casual fights. But if someone with a PS of 50 does that, then suddenly that veers straight into evil. it's not a fair fight and you could easilly cripple those you don't kill.

I'm not saying think of it like a four color/comics code hero, you can kill and still be good, but you have to understand your character is essentially bringing a machinegun to a fistfight. You can't call it equivlent.

This is the absolute best answer to my question that I've received so far. Thank you Nekira.

BUT, what you said, is that dispite being strong enough to easially subdue people, he will still just kill them. You don't even need a KO ability to subdoe them? You could simply target/break bones, or better yet, force them to surrender (Assuming your GM isn't the kind that has all badguys fight to the death for no reason, if so, the problem is your GM), or even find nonleathal things.

Yeah I'm thinking it's a GM problem. Last fight I was in, I was peppering goons with an AK-47. Just a round or two at a time. Even though the 4 of them only had knives they didn't stop coming until they were dead. If you scroll up and read, one decided to pop a cyanide pill rather than tell me what I wanted to know. Now unless EVERYONE I've encountered has been a fanatic cultist or just to macho (every 10 min of game time there is a roadblock of mexican bandits) to know when to run, then yeah I've got an unimaginative GM.

It's actually a big difference. that whole "With great power comes great responsibility" crap. Your strong enough to bench press an SUV, you don't get to act like a guy with normal strength does and claim the same moral equivlency. When the Arceologist punched a guy, he knew he'd get up again. your victems likely wont, and if he was as strong as your character is, don't you think that maybe he would employ different stratagies?

To put it more simply, if a fairly average person went around getting into bar brawls and could punch people/hit them upside the head with metal chairs and laugh it off later, that's could be unprincipled or even scrupulous so long as the culture in the area didn't look badly on casual fights. But if someone with a PS of 50 does that, then suddenly that veers straight into evil. it's not a fair fight and you could easilly cripple those you don't kill.

It's a PS of 75 and a +72 to damage actually , but I get what you're trying to say. And it's funny that you mention bench pressing an SUV. The math works out to me lifting 15,000 lbs. I also flipped a couple cars over to prevent pursuit. I didn't need to fight those NPC's, another PC in the group (mutant skunk) incapacitated them.

I'm not saying think of it like a four color/comics code hero, you can kill and still be good, but you have to understand your character is essentially bringing a machinegun to a fistfight. You can't call it equivlent.

hahah if I bring a machine gun to a fist fiight it actually slows things down. a barehanded punch does more damage (1D4+72) than an AK-47 round (4D6)

[Nekira Sudacne]

furthermore: If you have a SN ps of 75, you're Lifting 22500 as a BASE. your Exceptional (because PS is over 30, +30% per 5 pts of PS) 262,500lbs, 150 tons. your Punch Damage is 2d4x10+70. (+60 from score, +10 for basic bonus).

I'm pretty darn sure the rules for lifting weight with PS over 30 was not intended to apply to superhuman/supernatural strength

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Well Two things going on wrong:
1= Mutant animal Strength Caps at 30 unless you have Crushing Strength as per ATB 2nd Edition
if you're playing 1st Edition, you can't get that high without using TMNT Adventures to generate a Superpowered Animal.
in no edition of the game, Can you buy a strength trait multiple times .. Ie, if it says 10 Bio E for +D6 PS, it's Just purchasable Once. Not 4 times like some people have alluded to.

Lol House ruled it (I'll also admit to maxing out attribute bonuses from physical skills. eg +1D6 = 6 etc..). I didn't like how A: Brute, Beastly, Crushing Ps only increased lift/carry maxes and not raw Ps and how only Crushing had a dmg modifier. Why spend Bio-E on something that doesn't give me a game play bonus? So I made the following change to my game

Brute: listed bio-e cost +5 = Extraordinary PS
Beastly: listed bio-e cost +10 = Superhuman PS
Crushing: listed bio-e cost x2 = Supernatural PS

The book says the animal powers are the equivalent of the super powers, so I made them equal, but at an added cost. That way PC's really have to weigh the cost of what powers they buy or load up on disadvantages.

furthermore: If you have a SN ps of 75, you're Lifting 22500 as a BASE. your Exceptional (because PS is over 30, +30% per 5 pts of PS) 262,500lbs, 150 tons. your Punch Damage is 2d4x10+70. (+60 from score, +10 for basic bonus).

It's not Supernatural PS it's Superhuman. Also, while I appreciate the math you've done, it's not a thread about book legal PS/Dmg numbers. It's about consistently pulverizing NPC's and wondering if I need to change my alignment because every time I'm in combat the opponent ends up killed to death.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Don't get me wrong. Every time I obliterate someone with a swat of my badgery fist I wonder about my house ruling. Should I increase the cost to lower the incidence of "demi-gods"? Should I reduce the powers to 1/2 strength? (literally just thought of that as I typed it). Believe me, it's not mindless munchkinizing. I put thought into it and still think about what I did and how it was done/could be made better.

Honestly, leaving them as written doesn't seem like a viable option. Everyone I've ever known who had the muscle to lift more than I could also had the ability to hit harder than me. As written, the animal powers don't allow for that except in the case of Crushing PS. Unless the GM works in a steady stream of, "you need to pick up a heavy thing", the as written animal PS powers (to me) are a poor expenditure of Bio-E.

[KillWatch]

to original post:
all of those are good options.
My personal pick is to keep the cheat sheet and keep in mind what they would do. Don't think of it as an alignment but a core set of beliefs that is ingrained in the character. Most people like to think they are "good" but really they are in varying degrees selfish. Few would sacrifice themselves to help a stranger. We aren't tested on a deep level day to day. We wake up go to work come home eat go to bed. We aren't usually faced with these moral decisions. We obey the law because we don't want to get a ticket. Most break the law if they think they can get away with 80 in a 65. But we aren't confronted with do I kill this guy or not?

The character's alignment is that which guides him overall, what they would feel guilty about, what they want to be and how they see the world. Is the government feckless, there to help, to be obeyed, a bunch of oppressors, a good way to begin a climb to power and destruction? Are innocent people to be defended, used, abused at your pleasure or are their any innocent people?

The character is not you which brings me to this;
Talk to the GM find out what he wants to do, what kind of story he wants to run.
If you want to raise your gaming prowess then make your character into a "real" person
If you just want to shoot the bs and play for the pure fun of racking up a body count then do that.
Decide what you want to do. See the alignment. See the disposition. Write up a character history so that they become more than just a few descriptors on a page. Look at their stats and their skills and figure out how and why they have them.

Terrible things happen to a lot of people. Its how we handle it that informs us as to who we are. Mutant animals are not going to have an easy life (depending on setting). You can be a test subject (past present and/or future), family literally lab rats, hunted cuz it's duck season. So what if you are a walking talking humanish deer, you are in season and unless the laws have been changed - you are legal and someone is going to want your head on a mantle.

Sometimes the GM sets the table for realism and character development. Other times the players have to let the GM know that they are ready and wanting to raise the playing field.

Regarding abberrant: I moved it to selfish. It just wasn't evil. I think Anarchist has the potential for much more severe acts than aberrant. Aberrant has a reason. Anarchists do it because its tuesday and their internet was down.
Most animals by nature are anarchists - really only out for themselves. I think that is the base of biological entities anyway -survival and taking what you can take, so I can see many mutant animals doing this either by reason or by instinct. Anarchists can be of a higher mind taking into context the role of governments, how humans are flawed and never seem to get it right, and that freedom is an issue of presence of mind.

As for mutant animal powers:
I rewrote the whole thing;
1) I only have 1 strength scale for damage and carrying capabilities. With SN strength I just double the number and work it accordingly. If it is a god of strength or something like that, well you shouldn't be fighting a god anyhow. I use the stats given as their Avatars, like in D&D.
2) Mutant animals can only have extraordinary stats that coincide with their bonuses; IQ+1 means they can buy XIQ
3) Mutant animals get 150 bio e, and they can buy powers over and over. I made a popular NPC mutant hamster whose IQ is just, well, wrong. No looks, partial biped, full hands, full speech and SL 0. Everything got dumped into xiq. ON the other hand a mutant cat can by claws over and over to the point of wolverine taking notice.

As for waves of bad guys: Options
a) RP it. Take cover and yell at them "Hey don't you see your 56 friends hamburgered on the floor? Give up."
b) Talk to the gm. Find out why they were so willing to die. It could end up that he just didn't think about it, and he begins to edit his style, or he explains that they are all mind controlled and have no concerns about themselves. Even in D&D when I run if you get a creature to near half and they have no reason to really want you dead other than to eat you or this is a final stand then they run to heal up to hunt another day. Even if they are cultists they would want to be strategic about killing you and not waste their lives - unless this is the night when they are summoning the great azathoth and the high priest only needs a few more minutes to complete the ritual. But it its just a hideout eff it.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Killwatch,
Let me start out by saying thank you for your reply. It is very thought out and well written. From this point on I'm going to address each bit of it separately. But as a whole, I really enjoyed this response post.

Thank you,
TOSA Nate

to original post:
all of those are good options.
My personal pick is to keep the cheat sheet and keep in mind what they would do. Don't think of it as an alignment but a core set of beliefs that is ingrained in the character. Most people like to think they are "good" but really they are in varying degrees selfish. Few would sacrifice themselves to help a stranger. We aren't tested on a deep level day to day. We wake up go to work come home eat go to bed. We aren't usually faced with these moral decisions. We obey the law because we don't want to get a ticket. Most break the law if they think they can get away with 80 in a 65. But we aren't confronted with do I kill this guy or not?

The character's alignment is that which guides him overall, what they would feel guilty about, what they want to be and how they see the world. Is the government feckless, there to help, to be obeyed, a bunch of oppressors, a good way to begin a climb to power and destruction? Are innocent people to be defended, used, abused at your pleasure or are their any innocent people?

The character is not you which brings me to this;
Talk to the GM find out what he wants to do, what kind of story he wants to run.
If you want to raise your gaming prowess then make your character into a "real" person
If you just want to shoot the bs and play for the pure fun of racking up a body count then do that.
Decide what you want to do. See the alignment. See the disposition. Write up a character history so that they become more than just a few descriptors on a page. Look at their stats and their skills and figure out how and why they have them.

Interesting take on society. Sadly it's pretty accurate in my xp. People are generally out for themselves and will break the rules when they can. Not everyone, but enough to be a majority.

Tonight i played (or tried) a PC (not the badger destroyer) as a real person and not a "hero." Bad Gm'ing (he didn't tell me my opponent had died) and a subsequent bad decision I my part (I called the npc's bluff by attacking the "already dead guy" again) cost a hostage their life. While the hostage was an annoyance that I wanted rid of, her needless death set me and my pc back. It changed my attitude toward the main antagonist from "lay low and keep hidden" to "they'd better batten down the hatches because the **** storm is coming down on them like the fist of an angry god."

Terrible things happen to a lot of people. Its how we handle it that informs us as to who we are. Mutant animals are not going to have an easy life (depending on setting). You can be a test subject (past present and/or future), family literally lab rats, hunted cuz it's duck season. So what if you are a walking talking humanish deer, you are in season and unless the laws have been changed - you are legal and someone is going to want your head on a mantle.

Hahaha, NO it's Wabbit Season!

Sometimes the GM sets the table for realism and character development. Other times the players have to let the GM know that they are ready and wanting to raise the playing field.

Regarding abberrant: I moved it to selfish. It just wasn't evil. I think Anarchist has the potential for much more severe acts than aberrant. Aberrant has a reason. Anarchists do it because its tuesday and their internet was down.

I literally burst out laughing when I read this. It is now my de facto reason for anytime a PS (or even myself perhaps) does something particularly @$$hole-ish. Thank you for this. You have brought joy to my day.

Most animals by nature are anarchists - really only out for themselves. I think that is the base of biological entities anyway -survival and taking what you can take, so I can see many mutant animals doing this either by reason or by instinct. Anarchists can be of a higher mind taking into context the role of governments, how humans are flawed and never seem to get it right, and that freedom is an issue of presence of mind.

Interesting take on this. I'll have to think about it more.

As for mutant animal powers:
I rewrote the whole thing;
1) I only have 1 strength scale for damage and carrying capabilities. With SN strength I just double the number and work it accordingly. If it is a god of strength or something like that, well you shouldn't be fighting a god anyhow. I use the stats given as their Avatars, like in D&D.
2) Mutant animals can only have extraordinary stats that coincide with their bonuses; IQ+1 means they can buy XIQ
3) Mutant animals get 150 bio e, and they can buy powers over and over. I made a popular NPC mutant hamster whose IQ is just, well, wrong. No looks, partial biped, full hands, full speech and SL 0. Everything got dumped into xiq. ON the other hand a mutant cat can by claws over and over to the point of wolverine taking notice.

The GM and I spent over an hour discussing the topics of this thread (do I have the right alignment, how do I properly play an killing machine that doesn't inherently want to kill with each punch. After going over the things I've previously posted, and offering to alter the PC in question (cut the superhuman ps addition in half or scrap it all together in favor of other animal powers) he told me he didn't want me to do either. He liked the reasoning behind my build, my thoughts about alignment and why the character would or would not do something, and said, "he's already an established character. just leave him like he is"

As for waves of bad guys: Options
a) RP it. Take cover and yell at them "Hey don't you see your 56 friends hamburgered on the floor? Give up."
b) Talk to the gm. Find out why they were so willing to die. It could end up that he just didn't think about it, and he begins to edit his style, or he explains that they are all mind controlled and have no concerns about themselves. Even in D&D when I run if you get a creature to near half and they have no reason to really want you dead other than to eat you or this is a final stand then they run to heal up to hunt another day. Even if they are cultists they would want to be strategic about killing you and not waste their lives - unless this is the night when they are summoning the great azathoth and the high priest only needs a few more minutes to complete the ritual. But it its just a hideout eff it.

I asked him about this and found out his reasoning for the self sacrificing goons. He doesn't know what he's doing. I should point out he's doing the best he can for: A. Being new to PB. I'm teaching him as we go. 2. Not owning any of the books. He gives this as the main reason, "I don't have the books so I don't know what to throw at you" What he's using for NPC stats is a list of random encounter goons I printed out of one of the Rifts board threads. He showed me the stats for the highest lvl/toughest npc we had on the encounter sheets. Is it a match for my Badger O'death? No. No it's not. But I told him it was fine to throw at me. It would take me 2 hits to kill instead of 1. lol. I also told him the could just make stuff up. Assign whatever numbers he wanted to it and I'd deal accordingly. So I'm a dishing out a damage bonus of +72pts, big deal. I won't always win initiative, I might miss a strike roll, I might be out numbered. None of that makes me invincible, just one bad mutha is all.

Thank you again Killswitch for this reply.

[KillWatch]

duuuude
1) Anarchist: YOU can look up the anarchist movement to get a better informed decision. Anyhow look at it in terms of mendels heiarchy of needs. Once your basic needs are covered then you can explore things like art kindness philosophy, etc. Until then its mad max
2) badger? Killing machine? Look at vampire the masquerade - always trying to deny their inner beast - Wolverine trying to control the beast within and not unleash it needlessly. Honestly use that struggle for RP good stuff.
3) Hostages: Never easy, never. If they are just selfish you might be able to get everyone out, might but one slip can cause a cascade of death. Evil well you are just SOL. If they say they will kill the kid, they will do it just cuz they hate the team on the kids hat to show him
how wrong he was.
4) Everything you've mentioned I think can lead to excellent inner turmoil and conflict. Perhaps the character is "growing" out of his anarchist ways, realizing there is more or better ways to be
5) as a tip for the gm; treat all goons the same way, be they D&D goblins or hordes of yakuza; for the most part they don't want to die and want to fight and kill another day, maybe just not you. A pack of wolves will leave you alone when they see their pack leader go down or half the pack is dead

[KillWatch]

strength isn't an end all either. a sniper will ruin your day. Grenades explosives etc will ruin your day. Psionics will ruin your day. Mutant animals don't have to pay for their psionics other than the initial buy in for the power itself. The terror bears are nasty. I once mind trapped someone for days which to them felt like years in a nightmarish hellscape of torture. Sure it has a duration but with nothing keeping you from just doing it some more,...

As a gm I can kill anyone at anytime in a miriad of ways and once you realize that, it is no longer a challenge.
poison gas, infection, explosives, drowning (do you know how many people just don't bother with taking the skill? and that you can drown in an inch of water?). Even if there is no story way to kill them you can make it to where they want to die like getting possessed and involuntarily doing crimes, terrible things to strangers, friends, family etc. Sure the police can't kill him but he no longer has anyone to trust or turn to, and who knows-he might have just pissed off the president or the head of the CIA in one of his little jaunts- so then even strangers might be undercover agents keeping tabs or trying to get to them. OR you could just hit him with the monty python foot of death from on high. spheres of annihilation work well too. Another option is possessed friends/family. Sure you could solve the problem in one hit but then you'd be killing someone important. Yes you can take out 1 guy in 1 hit but how about 30 robots each with 5 attacks? which comes out to be 150 attacks in a melee. Even if you dodge you are getting hit.
The challenge then becomes to tell a good story, get the characters to think like real people. Get their family involved-not necessarily killed but like obligations or conflict like you don't like the guy your sister is marrying. You want him to be a douche but he turns out to be a really nice guy that doesn't like you. I am willing to allow a super tough character to be king of the hill. And yes everyone is out to get them and fine he can destroy all of them but then what? You can't defeat him. You can't hurt him. Let the success be their downfall. It comes around to RPing-what do they want? who do they love/hate? what is important to them? what would they fight/die for? The worst thing for a climber to do is reach the top. They have nowhere to go. I can send you some character development stuff if you want? a bunch of tables I use for PCs and NPCs alike.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Killwatch,
Sure man (or ma'am), send me the character development stuff. I'm sure it'll be interesting to look over.

2. As to the Killerific Badger of Annihilation. he is the main PC in question with regards to having the proper alignment. Short bio on him is this, Engineered by (a couple of smart @$$es) R.A.S.C.A.L (Royal Academy of Scholars for the Collection of Artifacts, Antiquities, and Ancient Libraries), a organization funded, founded, and ran by the British government, to be the ultimate field archaeologist. They took a badger (a proper english animal) which was already obstinate, tough, and a natural digger and mutated it to be what they needed. What they ended up with was a badger with Superhuman Ps (next to nothing is going to keep him from getting what he's after), Multiple Phd's (Can't be a good archaeologist unless you know about what you're after), and an personal style reminiscent of that fedora wearing movie archaeologist. He doesn't go around mindlessly killing goons, but it happens so easily when you were designed to burrow your way in and out of places sealed by tons of stone and centuries of time.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. Now that you've pointed it out, I agree all that would lead to good RP. Makes me wish there was a gaming group (that I had time to attend) in the area that would be appreciative of the Role playing I'm doing as much as the Roll playing. Ah well, beggars can't be choosers.

[KillWatch]

ok is this a more comedy game cuz I could see scientists just shooting spit balls saying you know what would be cool?,....
Otherwise you seem like a bad decision, a hyper smart/strong mutant animal with a reputation for a bad attitude. it doesn't even look good on paper. That's like a scientific double dare.

I play by your strength is evident in your body. A PS of 30 is going to be noticed and look like a big MFer. A PS of 50+is just going to look huge, and that right there would keep many would be assailants far far far away. Now if you also look like a badger (none or partial looks) even more so. I don't think goons or henchmen are paid nearly enough to go up against you. No your problerms would be with ancient spirits, mummies, wizards, witches, undead, other mutant animals, priests and nazis (gotta have the nazis). but the nazis would be the artillery sort not the foot soldiers. within handgun range I think they would run as you would have a HF. A lot of this other stuff is immune to physical attacks. Your knowledge of ancient languages and general brilliance would lead to puzzle solving and reading of ancient texts to find out how not to let loose ancinet sleeping demons.

For S&Gs I will see what I can do with a mutant badger

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

ok is this a more comedy game cuz I could see scientists just shooting spit balls saying you know what would be cool?,....
Otherwise you seem like a bad decision, a hyper smart/strong mutant animal with a reputation for a bad attitude. it doesn't even look good on paper. That's like a scientific double dare.

No, not so much a comedy game. Just a comedy spiced origin story. I took the vestigial disadvantage: musk glands and rolled odd smelling musk. He smells like leather bound books and rich mahognay. I chose some skills (WP Whip, WP Revolver and probably some others) to give him that IJ flavor, rather than play him as a stuffy British scientist.
Indiana Jones (to my knowledge) did not have a bad attitude. He only beat up the (obvious) bad guys or those that start trouble with him. Other than that he followed the clues and most laws (except those regarding breaking and entering and desecration of historical sites).
I seem like a bad decision? I don't look good on paper? Those are hurtful words.

I play by your strength is evident in your body. A PS of 30 is going to be noticed and look like a big MFer. A PS of 50+is just going to look huge, and that right there would keep many would be assailants far far far away. Now if you also look like a badger (none or partial looks) even more so. I don't think goons or henchmen are paid nearly enough to go up against you. No your problerms would be with ancient spirits, mummies, wizards, witches, undead, other mutant animals, priests and nazis (gotta have the nazis). but the nazis would be the artillery sort not the foot soldiers. within handgun range I think they would run as you would have a HF. A lot of this other stuff is immune to physical attacks. Your knowledge of ancient languages and general brilliance would lead to puzzle solving and reading of ancient texts to find out how not to let loose ancinet sleeping demons.

Yeah, I described him onces as a 4'6" Incredible Hulk wearing a badger costume. I guess these goons are either more scared of their boss than they are me, or are just really really stupid/suicidal. The multiple Phd's were picked specifically with solving puzzles, ancient languages/lore, and wilderness survival in mind. That's how I WANT to play him. So far I've not had that chance yet. I'm en route to find the first piece of the map which will lead to the whatever it is I'm being tasked to find. Along the way to where the map piece is,
I keep running into highway bandits, and goons/cultists who tell me to leave the country or suffer violence. Then, before I can explain that I AM on my way out, they attack and end up a bloody smear in the desert. But yes, the original design is to play him cerebrally. The Superhuman PS was intended for digging into places or out of them if I accidentally set off a trap.

Here is the link to an image i use for him. I do not own or take any credit/responsibility for said image.
http://www.shadowlordinc.com/character. ... er.Id=2349

[quote=]For S&Gs I will see what I can do with a mutant badger[/quote]

S&G? I don't know what that is.

[KillWatch]

pooh and giggles

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

pooh and giggles

If you've not poo'd or giggled by now you may have an impacted colon and a broken soul. Either way I'd get that checked out.

Lol

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Anyone have thoughts on Aberrant? In TMNT it's listed (imo) as middle of the scale Evil. In ATB2 it's listed lowest (least) on the scale, having traded places with miscreant. My interpretation of it is, I'll obey the law, not beat you up or kill you unless you give me a good reason to. The reason may be frivolous to anyone else, but you've crossed "my" line and now I'm going to take you out.

My newest PC is an Aberrant Mutant Dog Ninja. My understanding of Aberrant seemed to fit my understanding of the Ninja (more samurai honestly - don't jack with my honor) mentality.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Killwatch...Were you snatched in the middle of the night by Krampus? I'm still waiting for your S&G version of a mutant badger.

[KillWatch]

lol sorry been working a lot I will get that to you