Parrying and dodging

[scottypotty]

I guess I had assumed parrying costed an attack like a regular dodge. I am wrong. It seems kind of odd that you get more more bonuses to parry than dodge overall and it costs nothing. True, you cannot parry bullets, but dodging bullets usually incurs a stiff penalty. I know you can only parry so many opponents at once, but it seems strange that it doesn't cost any of your character's time to do it. Do I have this right? Is parrying the natural defense everyone uses to avoid melee attacks? I mean, you can conceivably parry multiple more times than you can attack...then still attack. Does an item used to parry take damage?

[mobuttu]

Do I have this right? Is parrying the natural defense everyone uses to avoid melee attacks? I mean, you can conceivably parry multiple more times than you can attack...then still attack. Does an item used to parry take damage?

Only those trained in H2H can parry without using up a melee action (RUE340).

M.D.C. can parry M.D. attacks. You can't parry a M.D. weapon barehanded (and I dare to add S.D.C. object) without ill effect (RUE340). Parrying a weapon barehanded is done without parry bonuses.

The parrying item doesn't receive damage unless it's deliberately targeted by the attacker.

Also, you should take into account attacker size when deciding should an attack can be parried or not.

[jaymz]

Honestly I do not think they ever define how many attackers you can parry in a melee when you get to parry for free....something to look into

[scottypotty]

The FAQ says one, or two to three with paired weapons. It's rare for a character not to have even H2H:Basic. I guess there's a lot of discretion up to the GM. Being a free action just seemed out of place to me. I'll just think of it as a natural defense in melee. Problem solved, thanks.

[Damian Magecraft]

Honestly I do not think they ever define how many attackers you can parry in a melee when you get to parry for free....something to look into

based on research through my extensive collection the best I can conclude is that by RAW a character may parry EVERY melee attack he is AWARE of.

[jaymz]

@scottypotty - the faq at best is an opinion unless it states a page number to show the answer so you may want to be careful what you take as factual from it

[Damian Magecraft]

@scottypotty - the faq at best is an opinion unless it states a page number to show the answer so you may want to be careful what you take as factual from it

Especially since N&SS shows in one of its examples on pg. 132 that 4 separate attacks in one melee action turn can be parried.

[MaxxSterling]

I know I have read in one or more books that only 3 attacks may be parried that a character is aware of. With paired weapons, it may be 4, I'm not certain on that. I'll try to find a book and page to reference.

[Damian Magecraft]

I know I have read in one or more books that only 3 attacks may be parried that a character is aware of. With paired weapons, it may be 4, I'm not certain on that. I'll try to find a book and page to reference.

I am not sure but I think you might be confusing the "no more than 4 attackers to an opponent" rule.

[Glistam]

Only three attacks can be parried, after that no more parries are allowed until after the character's next action. This is noted under the "Multiple attackers" entry in the combat glossary in RUE, but that's not the only book I've seen in in. Ninjas & Superspies has a Circular Parry which allows unlimites parries, but at a cost of reduced attacks per melee.

[Prysus]

I know I have read in one or more books that only 3 attacks may be parried that a character is aware of. With paired weapons, it may be 4, I'm not certain on that. I'll try to find a book and page to reference.

I am not sure but I think you might be confusing the "no more than 4 attackers to an opponent" rule.

Greetings and Salutations. As Glistam stated, the rule can be found in RUE on page 346 under "Multiple Attackers." This same rule can also be found on page 342 under the heading of "Two against one" (second paragraph). However, this is not the first time it was printed in a Palladium Book. The history (as near as I can figure it) starts with Splicers.

Splicers (October 2004): Page 209 under "Two against one" heading (again). Now, on page 213 under the heading of "Multiple Attackers" it does not repeat the rule. All it says is: "Characters with hand to hand can attempt to parry any attacks within their line of sight." Note there's no limitation on this one.

BtS2/Beyond the Supernatural; Second Edition (January 2005): Page 161 under "Two against one" again, as well as on page 163 where the wording has changed slightly. It now reads: "within their line of sight, from up to three attackers."

RUE/Rifts Ultimate Edition (August 2005): As listed above (same sections and wording as BtS2).

Dead Reign (November 2008): Same sections, same wording as BtS2 (different wording, of course).

As this rule has appeared now in the most recent four rule books, this suggests it is the new rule (or at least the old rule that's since been clarified). My personal theory based upon this information is that the "no more than 4 attackers to an opponent" rule is connected to the three parries only rule. Based on the information present, I believe the concept is as follows:

* You can parry all attacks you can see.
* Up to four attackers can attack a single opponent.
* The four attackers (to avoid conflict) must attack from different sides.
* This places one attacker in front, one on each side, and one behind.
* The defender can parry the one in front and (using peripheral vision) the two to the side.
* Attacks from behind (the fourth attacker) cannot be defended.

That's at least how I've broken it down in my head, though I admit it's not spelled out in the books so this remains a house rule (or at least an opinion/unproven interpretation of the rules as written). Hope that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Noon]

It's kind of redundant to say only three parries, if you can only have four attackers upon you (and the fourth is behind, which the rules already state you can't parry or dodge attacks from there). Oh well, atleast the ideas are compatable with each other.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

while we're talking about parries. if I parry your physical attack (punch) with a melee weapon does the attacker take damage?

I'm not 100% sure. i think if it's just a standard block (like bunting a baseball) then No.
If I attack your attack (hit your fist with my weapon as you're punching me) I'd think yes?

[Razzinold]

while we're talking about parries. if I parry your physical attack (punch) with a melee weapon does the attacker take damage?

I'm not 100% sure. i think if it's just a standard block (like bunting a baseball) then No.
If I attack your attack (hit your fist with my weapon as you're punching me) I'd think yes?

Not sure about everyone else but I wouldn't count that as a parry, I would rule that as a simultaneous attack. All you need to go to successfully parry an attack is redirect it enough away from you so they miss, not stop the attack completely.

Back when I studied Aki Kempo they taught us a technique of just twisting your body to the side to avoid a punch directed at your chest. Yes the fist still contacted with you chest but it was only a glancing strike since you twisted your body to the side to avoid it.
It was one of the things they taught us if you only had the use of one arm at the time (or none) and the punch was aimed at the side where your arm was incapacitated.

[Noon]

while we're talking about parries. if I parry your physical attack (punch) with a melee weapon does the attacker take damage?

I'm not 100% sure. i think if it's just a standard block (like bunting a baseball) then No.
If I attack your attack (hit your fist with my weapon as you're punching me) I'd think yes?

By the rules as I understand them, no.

The parry rules simply say you parry. Roll parry equal to or above their strike roll, the strike is nullified.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Not sure about everyone else but I wouldn't count that as a parry, I would rule that as a simultaneous attack.

ok. Simultaneous attack, probably also a rather difficult called strike because you're trying to hit a small moving target. I'm guessing it would be a high roll.

Anyone have an idea/example how that would play out? Now that I know what it is, I'm trying to figure out the mechanics of it.

If I miss the simultaneous attack/parry and don't roll a high enough # to hit the attackers hand do I A.) still get hit with their attack. B.) still hit them with my weapon?

As I type this out, I think I just answered my own question. I think it would play out the same way as when an attack falls below my AR. I go ahead and take the hit, but use up one my attacks (assuming I've lost initiative or just subtract from next round) to punch the guy as a consequence of his poor strike. Combat then resumes with me on defense.

Does that sound right to you all?

[Killer Cyborg]

Ninjas & Superspies has rules for damaging with a parry, IIRC.
It's a special martial arts move.

[jaymz]

Prysus excellent as usual

BtS2/Beyond the Supernatural; Second Edition (January 2005): Page 161 under "Two against one" again, as well as on page 163 where the wording has changed slightly. It now reads: "within their line of sight, from up to three attackers."

Has anyone else noticed this is extremely similar to the cannot dodge 4 or more missiles rule?

[Akashic Soldier]

Only three attacks can be parried, after that no more parries are allowed until after the character's next action. This is noted under the "Multiple attackers" entry in the combat glossary in RUE, but that's not the only book I've seen in in. Ninjas & Superspies has a Circular Parry which allows unlimites parries, but at a cost of reduced attacks per melee.

Yup. Except, Hand To Hand: Commando (?) gets Auto-Parry as a special ability, which I presume means that they can parry an unlimited number of times in a round as per auto-dodge. I remember because one of my players brought me a Crazy that could do it and I questioned it, looked it up, and found out it was legit.

Also, if I recall correctly you can move after a dodge (as part of a successful dodge) but you cannot with a parry (R:GMG if I recall correctly?).

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I parried a AK47 with a baseball bat once. What do the rules say about that hmmm?!

[Nekira Sudacne]

Only three attacks can be parried, after that no more parries are allowed until after the character's next action. This is noted under the "Multiple attackers" entry in the combat glossary in RUE, but that's not the only book I've seen in in. Ninjas & Superspies has a Circular Parry which allows unlimites parries, but at a cost of reduced attacks per melee.

Yup. Except, Hand To Hand: Commando (?) gets Auto-Parry as a special ability, which I presume means that they can parry an unlimited number of times in a round as per auto-dodge. I remember because one of my players brought me a Crazy that could do it and I questioned it, looked it up, and found out it was legit.

Also, if I recall correctly you can move after a dodge (as part of a successful dodge) but you cannot with a parry (R:GMG if I recall correctly?).

Umm, actually, all hand to hand styles have automatic parry. that's what lets you parry without using an attack in the first place. The 3-at-a-time limit is to automatic parry. HtH commando has no special parry manuver.

Also, there are no timing restrictions on movement at all. You can move at any point during a combat round, even if it's not your turn. you just can't take an action until it is.

[Akashic Soldier]

Only three attacks can be parried, after that no more parries are allowed until after the character's next action. This is noted under the "Multiple attackers" entry in the combat glossary in RUE, but that's not the only book I've seen in in. Ninjas & Superspies has a Circular Parry which allows unlimites parries, but at a cost of reduced attacks per melee.

Yup. Except, Hand To Hand: Commando (?) gets Auto-Parry as a special ability, which I presume means that they can parry an unlimited number of times in a round as per auto-dodge. I remember because one of my players brought me a Crazy that could do it and I questioned it, looked it up, and found out it was legit.

Also, if I recall correctly you can move after a dodge (as part of a successful dodge) but you cannot with a parry (R:GMG if I recall correctly?).

Umm, actually, all hand to hand styles have automatic parry. that's what lets you parry without using an attack in the first place. The 3-at-a-time limit is to automatic parry. HtH commando has no special parry manuver.

Also, there are no timing restrictions on movement at all. You can move at any point during a combat round, even if it's not your turn. you just can't take an action until it is.

Do you have R:GMG 6th Printing?

Mine specifically says you can move BEFORE or AFTER an action, and then later on in another section when its talking about something different (explosions I think?) it mentions that you cannot move following a parry. You also only move a certain increment in your speed per action. Its like, Speed x 5 ÷ 4 ÷ [Number of Actions] to determine how fast you can move per action. You can specifically move further by taking multiple dodges to get out of AOE attacks (so long as each dodge is successful) and even take actions and movement out of next turn to keep dodging a single large explosion.

Otherwise, dems the breaks. I actually spent three weeks going over every Palladium Book I own and compiling the combat system into a single file and then "streamlining" it and doing very small tweeks to try to keep it slightly more balanced than it had gotten over the years. So where as I am not always confident with where R.C.C.s and such are or how specific powers work. I am very confident in my understanding of the combat system as it is written.

I'm not saying that you're wrong and I am right, but I'd normally take your word on it Niki because you know your stuff but this time I am going to have to stick with my memory and sus out my books tomorrow afternoon and post page numbers and quotes. I should still have all of my notes for where everything is. However, 90% of it is in the R:UE or the R:GMG. Its only the obscure stuff that was hidden away in other books.

Peace.

Note: Hand to Hand Commando, I will suss that out too because it MIGHT be an ability of the Crazy or something. I just recall he had HTH: Commando, told me he could parry attacks he was not aware of. I called him on it. He showed me up in front of the gaming group and I was left with egg on my face. I just remember, whatever it was he had allowed him to parry an unlimited number of times and parry attacks he was not aware of like Auto-Dodge, except with a parry. And I don't even own Ninjas & Superspies and do not allow exotic Martial Arts in my game so I am like 98% sure it was something about Hand to Hand: Commando. However, it might have been something to do with the Crazy O.C.C. (but I don't think it was). I'll check on everything ASAP and I'll call up David tomorrow night and get the page numbers and stuff and explain it in detail. I remember because I don't like it when my players prove me wrong and when they do I remember it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Your gonna have to be more specific in where to look. the GMG is a big book, and a quick glance at referenced areas dosn't show me what your talking about. page numbers would make it a lot easier.

As for commando, it's not, no really, I know commando, I have characters that use it, hell, I have it right in front of me. there is nothing, nothing that even hints it, either in the HtH commando writeup or the crazy OCC.

The only thing that would permit what your talking about is if the crazy picked Intuitive Combat as a psionic, which does allow unlimited parrying/dodging from all directions.

[Prysus]

Your gonna have to be more specific in where to look. the GMG is a big book, and a quick glance at referenced areas dosn't show me what your talking about. page numbers would make it a lot easier.

As for commando, it's not, no really, I know commando, I have characters that use it, hell, I have it right in front of me. there is nothing, nothing that even hints it, either in the HtH commando writeup or the crazy OCC.

The only thing that would permit what your talking about is if the crazy picked Intuitive Combat as a psionic, which does allow unlimited parrying/dodging from all directions.

Greetings and Salutations. I have no clue what he's talking about with the movement notes, but as for the parrying ...

RUE; page 55, Crazy O.C.C. special abilities, Power 5, Enhanced Hearing: "... gives the Crazy an automatic dodge on all attacks; even from behind and surprise attacks." Followed up by (a sentence later): "An atuomatic dodge works like a parry ..."

Now, depending on how you read that ... the Automatic Dodge can defend against all attacks (within the limitations of that power), and since a dodge works like a parry ... then you should (by default) be able to parry against all those attacks as well. There is no limitation noted.

This conversation has gave me some additional information that I find fascinating as well. Within the Crazy O.C.C., they mention how the "automatic dodge on all attacks" works (it's granted by the enhanced hearing, and it's even given a range). This could give an added glimpse at how the Juicer ability (same wording, without the limitation) is intended to play out. Now, there's no proof that's how the Juicer ability is designed, but I believe helps show intent (the Juicer may, or may not, have a slightly increased range as well).

Adding in Intuitive Combat is another interesting aspect. RUE, page 173 mentions: "Cannot be caught by surprise, even by attacks from behind or from long-range." This is interesting because it separates "long-range" into another category (not listed in the Juicer or Crazy ability). Again, not exactly proof and Palladium is notorious for being inconsistent in its application of terms, but another potentially interesting glimpse.

Note: As written, the ability still says "all attacks" and doesn't give limitation. This doesn't change what is written, but may give an indicator to "intent."

Anyways, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Nekira Sudacne]

"And automatic dodge works like a parry, in that it dosn't use a melee attack", is how auto-dodge has always been discribed. it says nothing about the number of times a parry can be used, ergo, it dosn't alter it.

there's nothing special in how that's discirbied, it's always been how it's discribed, and it's never altered how parry works. the ability to apply it to all attacks is, like the juicer, an occ ability and NOT part of automatic dodge, or automatic parry.

[Prysus]

"And automatic dodge works like a parry, in that it dosn't use a melee attack", is how auto-dodge has always been discribed. it says nothing about the number of times a parry can be used, ergo, it dosn't alter it.

there's nothing special in how that's discirbied, it's always been how it's discribed, and it's never altered how parry works. the ability to apply it to all attacks is, like the juicer, an occ ability and NOT part of automatic dodge, or automatic parry.

Greetings and Salutations. I agree it doesn't change the concept of auto-parry or automatic dodge. Where I disagree with you is that it's NOT a Crazy ability. So why deny there's nothing like that for the Crazy when you admit it's part of the Crazy O.C.C. abilities?

Note: Hand to Hand Commando, I will suss that out too because it MIGHT be an ability of the Crazy or something.

there is nothing, nothing that even hints it, either in the HtH commando writeup or the crazy OCC.

the ability to apply it to all attacks is, like the juicer, an occ ability and NOT part of automatic dodge, or automatic parry.

So what are you trying to deny here?

Anyways, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Nekira Sudacne]

"And automatic dodge works like a parry, in that it dosn't use a melee attack", is how auto-dodge has always been discribed. it says nothing about the number of times a parry can be used, ergo, it dosn't alter it.

there's nothing special in how that's discirbied, it's always been how it's discribed, and it's never altered how parry works. the ability to apply it to all attacks is, like the juicer, an occ ability and NOT part of automatic dodge, or automatic parry.

Greetings and Salutations. I agree it doesn't change the concept of auto-parry or automatic dodge. Where I disagree with you is that it's NOT a Crazy ability. So why deny there's nothing like that for the Crazy when you admit it's part of the Crazy O.C.C. abilities?

Note: Hand to Hand Commando, I will suss that out too because it MIGHT be an ability of the Crazy or something.

there is nothing, nothing that even hints it, either in the HtH commando writeup or the crazy OCC.

the ability to apply it to all attacks is, like the juicer, an occ ability and NOT part of automatic dodge, or automatic parry.

So what are you trying to deny here?

Anyways, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Oh! I meant there was nothing in the crazy OCC that alters how automatic parry works, just that it's a crazy ability. you are connect in that that's not what I actually said, so apologies for my miscommunication.

[Prysus]

Oh! I meant there was nothing in the crazy OCC that alters how automatic parry works, just that it's a crazy ability. you are connect in that that's not what I actually said, so apologies for my miscommunication.

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, we're back on the same page now.

We were on the same topic, but from two different angles (you were trying to show how automatic parry works, while I was trying to show he was mistaken and thinking of a specific Crazy ability).

I do agree with you though. The special Crazy ability doesn't alter how automatic parry works, and anyone with a hand to hand style has an automatic parry (unless otherwise noted, because I can think of at least one PF HtH style that doesn't grant an auto-parry).

Apologies for any confusion on my part as well. Have a great day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Akeshic soldier was talking about "Automatic parry" from hand to hand commando being different from the crazy OCC, which is what I was talking about. it's all good though

[Prysus]

Akeshic soldier was talking about "Automatic parry" from hand to hand commando being different from the crazy OCC, which is what I was talking about. it's all good though

Greetings and Salutations. His first post (in regards to this specific topic) did indeed say that (saying it was a special ability of the Hand to Hand: Commando style). You said he was wrong (and you are right, he was wrong). His response to that was he'd look into it, because it "MIGHT" have been a Crazy ability (he just remembers the player of a Crazy proving to him he could have unlimited parries). You said there was nothing in the Crazy O.C.C. to suggest that (in regards to rewriting the general auto-parry, at least I think is what you were trying to say), which is where I chimed in (because it is still a Crazy ability, as he said was possible in his second post).

Yes, I've tracked the topic and know the topic. You're focusing only on his orignial stance, I'm addressing his altered stance (not sure if you missed it or not).

For note: I still have NO clue what he's talking about with movement. Heck, I can't recall Palladium even addressing movement during combat at all. I even looked in RGMG (2nd Printing only) just to be thorough, and no luck. So he's on his own with that one.

[jaymz]

@Prysus - I believe there is mention of it in the combat section of RUE but I know under the SPD attribute description it discusses how far one can move for every attack.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Akeshic soldier was talking about "Automatic parry" from hand to hand commando being different from the crazy OCC, which is what I was talking about. it's all good though

Greetings and Salutations. His first post (in regards to this specific topic) did indeed say that (saying it was a special ability of the Hand to Hand: Commando style). You said he was wrong (and you are right, he was wrong). His response to that was he'd look into it, because it "MIGHT" have been a Crazy ability (he just remembers the player of a Crazy proving to him he could have unlimited parries). You said there was nothing in the Crazy O.C.C. to suggest that (in regards to rewriting the general auto-parry, at least I think is what you were trying to say), which is where I chimed in (because it is still a Crazy ability, as he said was possible in his second post).

Yes, I've tracked the topic and know the topic. You're focusing only on his orignial stance, I'm addressing his altered stance (not sure if you missed it or not).

For note: I still have NO clue what he's talking about with movement. Heck, I can't recall Palladium even addressing movement during combat at all. I even looked in RGMG (2nd Printing only) just to be thorough, and no luck. So he's on his own with that one.

I know, like I said, it's all good

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

You would've been -7 (I think, depending on range, or -10) to your parry roll and wouldn't have been able to add any of your parry bonuses. And you wouldn't have been able to even make the attempt unless your character had initiative over his attacker. I think that was in SB1, But RUE says "bullets and energy attacks cannot (as a rule) be parried!" (under parry, pg 346)

Edit: There are certain OCC/RCCs and spells that allow you to parry bullets/energy attacks

You are correct in your statements Notafraid2die. I never said anything about parrying the bullets .

I had the initiative, snuck up behind the gun toting goon, and whacked him 3x with a baseball bat. 1x to the head, 1x, to the torso, and 1x to the arms (which unfortunately didn't disarm him). I'm now out of attacks.
The goon rolls to strike (he's going to shoot me at point blank range. Baseball bat is 36 or so inches..so yeah, I'm really close.) GM rolls..Nat 20.
Holy carp i think. I'm gonna be shot for 2x damage and am out of attacks, no chance to dodge. Heck, I'll try and parry seeing as how it doesn't cost me an attack. I roll to parry...Nat 20!!! I kid you not my friends. That's exactly how it went down. This happened again one more time but with different die rolls. The other 2 times (goon had 4 apm) i got shot full of holes.

By parrying a AK47 I simply meant that I was close enough to shove the barrel away with my bat when the attacker tried to shoot me. Which I think is really the only way to parry any sort of modern weapon. With any sort of bow weapon you may be able to move quick enough to knock it out of the way, but like you said. at a big disadvantage.

[KillWatch]

I think the term parry is wrong. Parrying is more advanced. I think the term should be "blocking" unless you have like judo or martial arts. Parrying implies a skillful deflection. Blocking is simple keeping something from hitting you with the hand or arm, or if you have invulnerability, with your face.