Wormwood OCC strangeness and symbiosis

[Tor]

I've been reading this sourcebook and had some points I wanted to discuss with others. I apologize if any have been brought up.

1. The Wormspeaker OCC (pg 63) says "they draw their power, through the symbiotes, from the Living Planet".


Obviously anybody who loses symbiotes loses the power specifically provided by each symbiote, but would the Wormspeaker also lose all their OCC powers if they lost all their symbiotes? For example, if they travelled off-planet for a week and all their symbiotes.

I know all Wormwood OCCs lose their wormwood-related magic and OCC powers while off-planet, but they get them back in 24 hours when they return (pg 45)

But if a Wormspeaker returned and was without symbiotes, would they also get them back, or would they have to get at least 1 symbiote back to establish that link again and be able to cast magic?

If a Wormspeaker didn't get their OCC powers back due to lack of symbiotes, they wouldn't have the magic spell needed to summon worms, so I think they would need to find fellow Wormspeakers to help them get their powers back.

2. Wormspeaker OCC also says: "this special union may be one of the elements that prevents the character from being an evil alignment" and "alignment: any except evil!"


Does that mean if a Wormspeaker lost their symbiotes by going off-planet that they may be able to turn to an evil alignment? If so, what would happen if they turned evil off-planet, and then returned and got symbiotes? Would they be forced to turn good again?

Besides going off-planet to kill the symbiotes, a Wormspeaker should also be vulnerable to the Remove Symbiotes power (which all Host have) so that could be one way that the Host could corrupt wormspeakers and turn them evil?

3. Pg 154 (Demon Camp) lists "1 Evil wormspeaker (6th level)


So apparently they can turn evil somehow, but I'm just not sure, maybe this wormspeaker lacks symbiotes, making them vulnerable to the Unholy's corruption? Or alternatively, maybe some Splugorth Slaver took him to Azlum and flipped his alignment?

4. Dark Priest OCC (pg 118) issues:


Symbiotes: none to start, but as many as 4 can be acquired (not before lvl 3)

Power number 7 (powers of the Unholy) lists "5. Possesses ALL the communion with wormwood powers known by the host."

On page 139 one of the 'power over wormwood' spells on the list is 'Impervious to Symbiotes'.

Does this mean that if a Dark Priest with symbiotes communes with one of the Host, they lose all their symbiotes? Or would it be possible to voluntarily turn off this power so that they can keep their symbiotes?

5. Spells of Communion with Wormwood (pg 82) note 2: "any of these powers can be cancelled any time by its creator before the duration time elapses".


Presumably this applies to people with infinite duration powers such as "Impervious to Symbiotes"? So in theory, a dark priest who gets the power from a Host (even though the ItS power says Priests of Light / Apok only, I guess the Host overcome that rule) could turn it off to keep their symbiotes?

Could an Apok or Priest of Light then also turn off the power? It generally would not be in-character to do so because PoL (like Templars) detest symbiotes, and the Apok's power is unique in that it doesn't prevent using the mask/orbs/saints and protects them from worm zombies. But in theory, based on note 2, they should be able to cancel the power.

6. Building on the previous point, the Apok OCC (pg 55) "Some, like the Confessor, are believed to have even been priests of light".


Priests of light all have the ItS power by default. People become Apoks by stepping into a "life vat cauldron" (presumably this means a Life Force Cauldron") and becomes bonded to a symbiotic masks. Priests of light, by nature of their OCC power, should not be able to do this UNLESS it was possible to turn it off.

Even though it merely says "believed", it would be odd for people to believe it possible for a priest of light to become an Apok if they knew either of the symbiotic nature of the mask or the nature through which Apoks were created.

7. The PB penalty for Wormspeakers says "takes into consideration all the symbiotic organisms, so don't add those penalties again".


If a wormspeaker goes off-planet and all their symbiotes die, would this PB penalty be temporarily gone until they returned to Wormwood and got all their worms back? Presumably they keep their ME/MA bonuses and PS/PP/Spd penalties while off-planet though. I'd assume they'd lose their HF with the symbiotes though.

8. Pg 91 "If symbiotes are taken to another dimension/world, they die within 1D6 hours"


Pg 45 "symbiotes when removed from the planet die within 1d6 hours, shrivel up and fall off"

Pg 56 "the apok wears the demon masks of Wormwood,, a living symbiotic organism"

If an Apok's mask is taken off-planet and crumbles to dust after some hours...would they be able to find another Life Force Cauldron and step into it and get another one from the planet? Or is it pretty much a one-time thing? It seems like if I were a Host, I would be sending thieves to try and steal Apok masks and toss them through the nearest rift to ruin the powers of my enemies.

9. If an Apok's masks is destroyed this way (pretty much the only way to do it seeing as how they're otherwise indestructible)..


Would they keep their OCC powers that are usable when the mask is off, such as their magic and imperviousness to symbiotes, magic seeing, horror factor and mind control.

10. Related to being able to turn off the impervious to symbiotes ability...


Would an Apok be able to voluntarily turn off their infinite-duration "Impervious to Magic Seeing" ability? Like to let themselves be seen on purpose? Based on note 5 I think they should be able to do that, and it would be helpful in undercover work.

You'd think being impervious to magic seeing would always be an advantage in covert ops, but it would actually be a good way for someone with a crystal ball to screen for Apoks. They could simply say "show yourself to the orb" and Apoks would be the only ones unable to voluntarily do so (others who select the power such as monks, priests of light or wormseeers have a limited duration).

11. Pg 45 "characters who draw powers from Wormwood: all OCC special powers such as Wormspeaker, confessers (Apoks I assume), and priest, instantly disappear the moment they step into a different dimension or leave the planet"

Since Wormwood OCC powers are lost off-planet, would this mean that Apoks would become vulnerable to horror factor, possession and mind-control while off-planet, and also lose their enhanced strength and speed?

12. Spells of Communion (pg82) note 1: "ALL of these powers are available only to the Priests of Light".


compare to pg 87 "Summon & Use Symbiotes": "Note: This power is not available to the Priest of Light, who is impervious to symbiotes".

I find that a confusing note, because under Battle Saints (pg 93) it says "Priests of Light can summon but not pilot them"

Is it the "and Use" note in the SUS spell which makes it impossible for them to use it (in contradiction to the earlier statement that PoL can select ALL)? I thought that the power would be possible to use to summon a symbiote for other people's use. If it wasn't possible to summon symbiotes for others, then how would Symbiotic Warriors and other OCCs listed as getting symbiotes be able to procure them?

I would think that, since a PoL can summon a saint/orb/spirit which they can't personally use for others, that they could do the same with symbiotes.

I personally think that since priests of light detest symbiotes (as do their followers, the Templars), they would probably not want that power or want to use it, but it sounds like something that unusual or evil priests of light would be willing to do.

13. The 'healing powers' of the Knight of the Hospital (pg 75) they are said to lose if they don't attain a good/unprincipled alignment by third level.


This may have already been brought up but they appear to be missing, I assume it's part of the reason they have exceptionally high PPE. I'm wondering if it's ever been brought up in errata somewhere.

14. Lazareth Vesper (pg 9) or Lazarus Vespers (pg 79)

Which is proper? I'm thinking maybe one is his true name and the other would be a similar but different alias he tells people to protect himself (perhaps Ley Line Walkers, like Summoners and Diabolists, know it is unwise to let people have your True Name?)

15. Apok's old OCC (pg 55) "all old, original OCC skills are lost"

I can't really figure out why this happens. Apoks don't appear to operate like Guardians (Nightbane) or Reformed Demons (Mystic China) where the rebirth makes them lose their memories. Statements such as:

"The Unholy and his minions hate and fear the apok, they know these heroes have an uncanny insight into their tactics/desires/pleasures/workings of their minds. The apok know their cities and many of their dark secrets".

That definitely doesn't sound like someone who has lost their memories, so I'm clueless as to why Apok would lose previous OCC skills.

But taking that literally: it says OCC skills, not OCC abilities, OCC related skills or secondary skills. Is it possible that Apok may retain those?

I'm wondering if there might be another example where the generally less important related/secondary skills are given predominance in retention over OCC skills in a way one might interpret that statement.

16. Natives of wormwood are MDC beings


Wormwood OCCs are listed with MDC bonuses. If an SDC off-world creature took a Wormwood OCC would these bonuses be SDC? The only exception I could see would be symbiotes (who are MDC on their own) including the MDC bonus from the Apok mask.

17. While Apok alignments are listed a 40 principled and 60 scrupulous...

It doesn't actually say a 'good only' restriction similar to the wormspeaker's "any except evil" restriciton. Does this mean Apoks may in theory drop to a selfish or evil alignment?

I could plausibly see an Aberrant Apok who showed no mercy to good monsters for example, or who became obsessed with wiping out a corrupt Templar/Priesthood even though many members are good. Apoks don't have a power like the Monks who take 'Art of Meditation' (number 3, Third Eye aka Spriit Eye) which say "cannot be tempted to do something contrary to alignment.

Perhaps why the wormspeakers are trusted (so long as they have symbiotes anyway) and why Apoks are feared is because they are vulnerable to becoming evil again?

There is flavour text in the Apoks like "the blackness of his soul and evil potential, there's nothing more frightening".

Buuut... it does say "evil potential", so perhaps what frightens the Apok is that they CAN become evil again?

Similarly "dedicated to good and nothing will stop him short of death". Yet, isn't it possible for people to attain evil alignments (mostly aberrant) while battling for "good"? Good being a subjective concept (excepting its being a category of Principled/Scrupulous/Taoist) I think an Apok who became evil may still view themselves as battling for the greater good.

One concept I had: Apoks can select magical abilities at later levels. Only summoning magic is excluded. 'Create' magic is not, since Apoks have 3 'create' spells by default and the Confessor selected one (stairs) at later levels. "Create Life Force Cauldron" then, would not be excluded.

That spells says only evil people will make it, but I don't think so. A good person might, for example, use a life force cauldron to drown evil beings, and then make slime to heal the wounds of good people. Isn't that a good thing to do?

Plus, you can't make Apoks without life force cauldrons, so I think an Apok might perhaps be led to make life force cauldrons (on evil ground of course) to create more of his own kind to battle evil!

18. Spells of Communion (pg 82) Note 4: Savings Throws

It mentions that the land resists priests in evil domains via savings throws. It also mentions 'evil characters have the same problem in lands where humans reign and good dominates'.

Does this mean that the land doesn't resist evil people in evil lands? It doesn't say this but I think it's implied that they are excepted from needings a savings throw since they say 'same problem'. It wouldn't be the same if Wormwood resisted evil everywhere.

I think this is also implied by the Create Life Force Cauldron spell, which doesn't have a savings throw for the land resisting in evil domains (and it can't be done at all in good) yet the good must overcome a roll to destroy one in evil lands.

One thing I wondered though: what about selfish characters? Does the land resist them in both good and evil places? Or does the land co-operate in both places? Or maybe somewhere in between where they're resisted everywhere, but not as intensely?

Or is this one of those cases where the Selfish category is ignored and split into pure Good/Evil? In this case, Unprincipled usually gets thrown in with Good and Anarchist in with evil.

[DhAkael]

"Nurse; scalpel."

[Tor]

These are legit questions bros, what with there being an evil wormspeaker and all that.

Also I want to find a way to make sure people don't just start chucking Apok masks through d-portals to destroy them.

[The Beast]

IIRC somewhere in the FAQ the answer to the Apok & travel off-world was that it could survive outside off Wormwood.

As far as destroying the mask goes, let them keep the powers for 24 hours then start draining them to nothing until a new mask is obtained.

EDIT: When I originally answered this question I was under the impression that the FAQ was official Q&A from Palladium Books. I now know that is incorrect, and therefore can no longer stand by the above answer. I will now go apply the appropriate punishment for myself.

[Tor]

As far as the "chunking mask through D-portals to destroy them"; Pg 57: "The mask sticks to the face like magic and cannot be forcibly removed. Only the apok warrior can remove the mask when he so desires."

They still take it off sometimes though, as the Confessor does in the comic, so it could be stolen. I imagine it's a good thing to have on while sleeping though.

As far as the 1 evil wormspeaker at demon camp... I'm at a loss. You could assume that "No evil alignments" applies strictly to player characters.

Naw, I always assume rules should apply to NPCs too. Unexplained PPE behemoths like Dunscon frustrate me.

IIRC somewhere in the FAQ the answer to the Apok & travel off-world was that it could survive outside off Wormwood.

It meaning the mask? Would like to see that FAQ.

As far as destroying the mask goes, let them keep the powers for 24 hours then start draining them to nothing until a new mask is obtained.

That's just it, I'm not sure a new mask CAN be obtained if the old one is lost or destroyed. I don't even think you could use another Apok's mask (perhaps you stole it from them or they died? Do masks die if the Apok does?), I think it has to be your own personal mask since it symbolizes your own demons and all that.

[Nightmask]

IIRC somewhere in the FAQ the answer to the Apok & travel off-world was that it could survive outside off Wormwood.

As far as destroying the mask goes, let them keep the powers for 24 hours then start draining them to nothing until a new mask is obtained.

The mask is a special Wormwood symbiote, I don't think you'd be able to gain a new one if the old was destroyed. Then again it's just as likely that you can't permanently destroy the mask without killing its owner/wearer first and otherwise it will always regenerate.

[Tor]

Regenerate from the dust that all symbiotes become off-planet?

I think if an Apok takes their mask off-planet they'd better have a Temporal Warrior/Wizard friend along to create a dimensional pocket to throw the mask in so that it takes longer than a day for the thing to disintegrate. I'm not sure if it would work though, because even if time slows down you're still disconnected from the planet.

[Nightmask]

Regenerate from the dust that all symbiotes become off-planet?

I think if an Apok takes their mask off-planet they'd better have a Temporal Warrior/Wizard friend along to create a dimensional pocket to throw the mask in so that it takes longer than a day for the thing to disintegrate. I'm not sure if it would work though, because even if time slows down you're still disconnected from the planet.

The Apok masks don't disintegrate off Wormwood, because they're bonded to and expressions of the Apok and NOT Wormwood.

[Nightmask]

The Apok masks don't disintegrate off Wormwood, because they're bonded to and expressions of the Apok and NOT Wormwood.

This might be, I can't find anything to the contrary, but the Apok looses all it's powers off world and so the mask would be powerless.

I've never seen anything that said Apoks lose any of their abilities off of Wormwood, only those like Wormspeakers that require the symbiotes that are tied to the planet for their abilities. In the FAQ section someone asked about the mask and the response was that the Mask is bonded to and sustained by the Apok so remains fully functional off the planet and nothing to suggest that the Apok would lose any of his abilities off the planet either.

[Nightmask]

In the FAQ section someone asked about the mask and the response was that the Mask is bonded to and sustained by the Apok so remains fully functional off the planet and nothing to suggest that the Apok would lose any of his abilities off the planet either.

Thanks, didn't know that. So on world and off, the Apok is basically a Demi-god. Nice.

Not a demi-God, but they are quite tough. Their most impressive attribute is all those immunities that they have, being able to stare the most horrifying eldrich abomination in the face and give it the finger and laugh in the face of a creature against whom all others promptly become enslaved to its will. The one OCC from Wormwood I'd enjoy playing, the totally dedicated defender of good and hunter of evil, beyond corruption or seduction to the dark side because he's already been there and rejected that part of him to become an Apok.

[Tor]

Apok masks don't disintegrate off Wormwood, because they're bonded to and expressions of the Apok and NOT Wormwood.

Source? They're listed as symbiotic organisms, it says nothing about them not requiring a link to Wormwood like the others.

I've never seen anything that said Apoks lose any of their abilities off of Wormwood, only those like Wormspeakers

It says both priests and confessors lose them. Confesser = Apok, they just didn't update the name in that section when they flipped it for the NPC.

In the FAQ section someone asked about the mask and the response was that the Mask is bonded to and sustained by the Apok so remains fully functional off the planet and nothing to suggest that the Apok would lose any of his abilities off the planet either.

I'm all for resorting to the FAQ to cover things not clarified in the books, but we should generally ignore the FAQ when it contradicts established rules, and this is one of those cases. Wormwood is very clear that Apoks lose their powers and that all symbiotes (which masks are) die.

You'd think with a few Wormwood NPCs floating around (there's a freelancer in phase world, a holy terror in mercenaries) you might've run into an Apok NPC off-planet by now, if they could bring their masks and powers off-planet.

[Nightmask]

Apok masks don't disintegrate off Wormwood, because they're bonded to and expressions of the Apok and NOT Wormwood.

Source? They're listed as symbiotic organisms, it says nothing about them not requiring a link to Wormwood like the others.

They are symbiotic organisms obviously bonded to the Apok, created as an expression of the Apok's personal changes to reject his previous evil life during his time in the Lifeforce Vats. They aren't a creation of Wormwood.

I've never seen anything that said Apoks lose any of their abilities off of Wormwood, only those like Wormspeakers

It says both priests and confessors lose them. Confesser = Apok, they just didn't update the name in that section when they flipped it for the NPC.

Really not buying that.

In the FAQ section someone asked about the mask and the response was that the Mask is bonded to and sustained by the Apok so remains fully functional off the planet and nothing to suggest that the Apok would lose any of his abilities off the planet either.

I'm all for resorting to the FAQ to cover things not clarified in the books, but we should generally ignore the FAQ when it contradicts established rules, and this is one of those cases. Wormwood is very clear that Apoks lose their powers and that all symbiotes (which masks are) die.

You'd think with a few Wormwood NPCs floating around (there's a freelancer in phase world, a holy terror in mercenaries) you might've run into an Apok NPC off-planet by now, if they could bring their masks and powers off-planet.

Given the masks aren't a product of Wormwood but of the corrupted aspects instead they don't qualify as Wormwood Symbiotes to be bound by those restrictions. Which is why they survive off planet, since the Apok is there lifesource and is why they instantly crumble away when the Apok dies. He, not Wormwood, is their life. So there's no reason to reject the FAQ since it doesn't contradict anything and is supported by the nature of Apok.

We don't know how many Apoks there are either, given what's required to become one (being a thoroughly evil person who chooses to reject that completely and be remade in the Life Vats) they probably aren't very common so not surprising that none have been seen off Wormwood: none of them have chosen to leave. Which also makes sense since they're dedicated to cleaning up Wormwood and are way too obsessed with that to head off-planet.

The Holy Terror in Mercenaries is also there because he was caught in the closing gate, it's not like he chose to travel there it was purely by accident.

[Tor]

They are symbiotic organisms obviously bonded to the Apok, created as an expression of the Apok's personal changes to reject his previous evil life during his time in the Lifeforce Vats.

True. Apok masks won't benefit anyone but the Apoks they are created for. But that doesn't mean...

They aren't a creation of Wormwood.

They very much ARE a creation of Wormwood. That's why they can only be created on Wormwood in Life Vat Cauldrons (which can only exist on Wormwood).

I'm not sure how you get this idea as the text is very clear: "the demon masks of Wormwood, a living symbiotic organism created by the living planet and molded by the repentant warrior"

Confesser = Apok, they just didn't update the name in that section when they flipped it for the NPC.

Really not buying that.

Pg45 column 2 top "Characters who draw their powers from Wormwood are also adversely affected by separation from the planet. All OCC special powers, such as those of the Wormspeaker, confessors and priest, instantly disappear..."

What does 'confesser' refer to, if not the Apok? I love splitting hairs, but that's going a bit far. Apoks get their OCC powers from Wormwood in the same fashion as the priest and speaker. Kevin obviously just changed the OCC's name because he wanted "the confesser" for a specific NPC, but forgot to sub it in there.

the masks aren't a product of Wormwood

Except that they are, since it explicitly says Wormwood creates them. Apoks merely mold them.

they don't qualify as Wormwood Symbiotes

the Apok is there lifesource

Where does it say this?

they instantly crumble away when the Apok dies.

Where does it say this happens?

He, not Wormwood, is their life. So there's no reason to reject the FAQ since it doesn't contradict anything and is supported by the nature of Apok.

You and potentially FAQ contradict the clearly established fact that these are symbiotes created by and linked to Wormwood. That they are indestructible while on Wormwood (much like battle saints, which apoks can also use) doesn't change that.

Their "impervious to symbiotes" power (which only works on Wormwood symbiotes, NOT other symbiotes) is unique from the Priest of Light's in that it excludes the demon mask, battle saint and orb. This exception is specified because these three things are ALL symbiotes linked to Wormwood which would normally be forbidden by the power.

[Kaede_Ostraevian]

It's not that hard to actually parse. If you actually read Wormwood, you'll actually realize that Wormwood the planet is a macrocosm of an individual's immunosystem having gone horribly awry. The Apoks are a desperate attempt of the planet to entice morally ambiguous servants of the Unholy to redeem themselves. So when this servant of the Unholy decides he made the wrong call in aligning himself or herself with the Unholy after all the horrible things they've done and the multitude of sacrifices they've had to born witness to, they were overcome with guilt over what they had done. This generally means that non-Wormwood natives probably are never going to be an Apok, hence the fact they don't address an SDC being becoming an Apok. The Apok is Wormwood's last ditch attempt to counter to the infection of the Unholy. Combine that with the fact that an Apok can not benefit from any other worm or symbiote the planet has to offer, It's an enticement for the natives of Wormwood who had sworn service to the Unholy to renounce their allegiance and repent for the manifest horrible things they've seen and done. Perhaps one of the more merciful thing the transmutation does is leave them with only a vague feeling of the things they did. So it's very unlikely that a non-Wormwoodian would become an Apok. For one thing, only Wormwood itself has stable portals to other dimensions, and the realm itself isn't actually easy to find, it's almost a monumental accident that any SDC being ends up there, despite how knowledgeable the inhabitants of Wormwood may be of them. Ala Erin Tarn.