The Speed of Telekinesis

[drewkitty ~..~]

Is there any text in any of the Palladium RPG Gaming books (any setting), that sets the maximum Speed that (Physical)Telekineses can make something move? Same question about Super TK?
Note: I am not asking about Any Other powers and what they say. So keep it neat and tidy answering the question I asked. (i.e.: Assume I know about the TK accel attack and Hyper TK so no need to bring them up.)

[Nekira Sudacne]

Is there any text in any of the Palladium RPG Gaming books (any setting), that sets the maximum Speed that (Physical)Telekineses can make something move? Same question about Super TK?
Note: I am not asking about Any Other powers and what they say. So keep it neat and tidy answering the question I asked. (i.e.: Assume I know about the TK accel attack and Hyper TK so no need to bring them up.)

Nope. as your level (and thus range) increases, your TK speed increases linerally.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

There's a really great expansion of the telekinesis powers and rules in Rifter #44.

[Grand Paladin]

You can also make the case that the speed for the standard Telekinesis is equal to the M.E. attribute, and x2 the M.E. attribute for Super Telekinesis. Seems pretty straightforward.

[Killer Cyborg]

Is there any text in any of the Palladium RPG Gaming books (any setting), that sets the maximum Speed that (Physical)Telekineses can make something move? Same question about Super TK?
Note: I am not asking about Any Other powers and what they say. So keep it neat and tidy answering the question I asked. (i.e.: Assume I know about the TK accel attack and Hyper TK so no need to bring them up.)

The range of the power shows you the speed: if you have a range of 1,000' with your TK, that means you can pick up an object at your feet, and move it 1,000' away in one attack/action.
So the speed of TK depends on your level, and how many attacks per melee you get.

[Glistam]

Is there any text in any of the Palladium RPG Gaming books (any setting), that sets the maximum Speed that (Physical)Telekineses can make something move? Same question about Super TK?

None that I've found in Beyond the Supernatural, Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition, Heroes Unlimited GM's Guide, Nightbane, Rifts (Ultimate Edition), Rifts (original), Rifts: Book of Magic, Palladium Fantasy 2nd Edition, or Mutants in Orbit.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Thanks All
Was hoping to avoid doing any number crunching.

[Qev]

Re: Telekinesis, "Objects thrown [with Telekinesis] would be equivalent to objects thrown by a physical hand." - RUE p 170

Re: Telekinesis (Super), no real information given.

[flatline]

Is there any text in any of the Palladium RPG Gaming books (any setting), that sets the maximum Speed that (Physical)Telekineses can make something move? Same question about Super TK?
Note: I am not asking about Any Other powers and what they say. So keep it neat and tidy answering the question I asked. (i.e.: Assume I know about the TK accel attack and Hyper TK so no need to bring them up.)

The range of the power shows you the speed: if you have a range of 1,000' with your TK, that means you can pick up an object at your feet, and move it 1,000' away in one attack/action.
So the speed of TK depends on your level, and how many attacks per melee you get.

I don't see how that follows.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

Is there any text in any of the Palladium RPG Gaming books (any setting), that sets the maximum Speed that (Physical)Telekineses can make something move? Same question about Super TK?
Note: I am not asking about Any Other powers and what they say. So keep it neat and tidy answering the question I asked. (i.e.: Assume I know about the TK accel attack and Hyper TK so no need to bring them up.)

The range of the power shows you the speed: if you have a range of 1,000' with your TK, that means you can pick up an object at your feet, and move it 1,000' away in one attack/action.
So the speed of TK depends on your level, and how many attacks per melee you get.

I don't see how that follows.

--flatline

I'm not seeing how that makes any sense either, the power says nothing about being able to move an object from where you are to your max range in a single melee attack (or an entire melee for that matter).

[Killer Cyborg]

Is there any text in any of the Palladium RPG Gaming books (any setting), that sets the maximum Speed that (Physical)Telekineses can make something move? Same question about Super TK?
Note: I am not asking about Any Other powers and what they say. So keep it neat and tidy answering the question I asked. (i.e.: Assume I know about the TK accel attack and Hyper TK so no need to bring them up.)

The range of the power shows you the speed: if you have a range of 1,000' with your TK, that means you can pick up an object at your feet, and move it 1,000' away in one attack/action.
So the speed of TK depends on your level, and how many attacks per melee you get.

I don't see how that follows.

--flatline

I'm not seeing how that makes any sense either, the power says nothing about being able to move an object from where you are to your max range in a single melee attack (or an entire melee for that matter).

It's either that, or the full diameter of the area that your power can reach, which I think it pretty excessive.
I used to argue against TK working the way I describe, but ultimately it was the only logical conclusion.
If you feel that you have angles that weren't addressed in the following thread, I'd be happy to re-examine the situation:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=121807

[flatline]

Is there any text in any of the Palladium RPG Gaming books (any setting), that sets the maximum Speed that (Physical)Telekineses can make something move? Same question about Super TK?
Note: I am not asking about Any Other powers and what they say. So keep it neat and tidy answering the question I asked. (i.e.: Assume I know about the TK accel attack and Hyper TK so no need to bring them up.)

The range of the power shows you the speed: if you have a range of 1,000' with your TK, that means you can pick up an object at your feet, and move it 1,000' away in one attack/action.
So the speed of TK depends on your level, and how many attacks per melee you get.

I don't see how that follows.

--flatline

I'm not seeing how that makes any sense either, the power says nothing about being able to move an object from where you are to your max range in a single melee attack (or an entire melee for that matter).

It's either that, or the full diameter of the area that your power can reach, which I think it pretty excessive.
I used to argue against TK working the way I describe, but ultimately it was the only logical conclusion.
If you feel that you have angles that weren't addressed in the following thread, I'd be happy to re-examine the situation:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=121807

Okay, having skimmed that thread, my response is that sometimes you just don't have enough information to logically conclude anything.

However, unless I missed it, it seems like everyone in that thread missed the obvious physics class answer. If you've put enough ISP into your TK to lift X pounds, then if you lift something that weighs less than X, then you can use the remaining available force to accelerate the object in a particular direction until you either (a) hit your range limit, (b) achieve enough speed that air resistance matches your surplus force or (c) hit some arbitrary speed limit imposed by the GM based on how they think TK should work (or game balance).

--flatline

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Okay, having skimmed that thread, my response is that sometimes you just don't have enough information to logically conclude anything.

However, unless I missed it, it seems like everyone in that thread missed the obvious physics class answer. If you've put enough ISP into your TK to lift X pounds, then if you lift something that weighs less than X, then you can use the remaining available force to accelerate the object in a particular direction until you either (a) hit your range limit, (b) achieve enough speed that air resistance matches your surplus force or (c) hit some arbitrary speed limit imposed by the GM based on how they think TK should work (or game balance).

--flatline

The revised TK powers in Rifter #44 address this issue, if you want to use an alternative method.

TK: Super basically works like this:

5 ISP grants Supernatural PS of 1, with each additional 3 ISP increasing the strength by 1, up to a maximum equal to ME attribute plus level of experience. Each point of strength allows for the manipulation of 50 pounds and base movement Speed for TK controlled objects is 25.

For each point of unneeded strength, an object gains an additional Speed of 5 points.

So for example, a 50 pound object being moved by a TK: Super that has been activated with 35 ISP will be able to travel with a Speed of 75, or 51 mph. Going to an extreme, a level 15 psychic with an ME of 30 could hurl objects weighing 50 pounds or less at up to Speed 245, or 167 mph. Anyone want to work out how much kinetic force that would impart on impact?

[The Jack]

I will echo the others and state that it does not follow for me that the range limitations necessarily equate to the speed of telekinesis.

I see the maximum height or distance as a matter of psychic leverage, not speed affected by weight. I believe this view is supported by description of the power, which does not give the maximum height or distance per attack or per melee, but simply as the maximum range. There is nothing to indicate that objects are accelerated out to the maximum range at different speeds relative to weight, only that the range is different relative to weight.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you feel that you have angles that weren't addressed in the following thread, I'd be happy to re-examine the situation:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=121807

Okay, having skimmed that thread, my response is that sometimes you just don't have enough information to logically conclude anything.

Let me know when you've READ it.

However, unless I missed it, it seems like everyone in that thread missed the obvious physics class answer. If you've put enough ISP into your TK to lift X pounds, then if you lift something that weighs less than X, then you can use the remaining available force to accelerate the object in a particular direction until you either (a) hit your range limit, (b) achieve enough speed that air resistance matches your surplus force or (c) hit some arbitrary speed limit imposed by the GM based on how they think TK should work (or game balance).

--flatline

That'd be a great house rule that is nowhere supported by the books.

[Killer Cyborg]

I will echo the others and state that it does not follow for me that the range limitations necessarily equate to the speed of telekinesis.

I see the maximum height or distance as a matter of psychic leverage, not speed affected by weight. I believe this view is supported by description of the power, which does not give the maximum height or distance per attack or per melee, but simply as the maximum range. There is nothing to indicate that objects are accelerated out to the maximum range at different speeds relative to weight, only that the range is different relative to weight.

When the power lists a range, what exactly do you think that range governs?

[The Jack]

The maximum distance from the psychic at which objects of a particular weight may be affected by the power.

[Killer Cyborg]

The maximum distance from the psychic at which objects of a particular weight may be affected by the power.

Okay.
So if a psychic picks up a rock at his feet, and uses TK to carry it away from him, how long does it take for the rock to reach the edge of the psychic's range?

[The Jack]

The maximum distance from the psychic at which objects of a particular weight may be affected by the power.

Okay.
So if a psychic picks up a rock at his feet, and uses TK to carry it away from him, how long does it take for the rock to reach the edge of the psychic's range?

If the psychic is using the rock in an attack, and therefore maximizing the speed with which the rock can be manipulated through telekinesis, the answer is an undefined time which is less than the time it takes the psychic to complete one melee action.

I am a little confused by your use of the word carry, however, so if you did not intend for me to reply with what I believe the maximum possible speed is then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[Mack]

The maximum distance from the psychic at which objects of a particular weight may be affected by the power.

Okay.
So if a psychic picks up a rock at his feet, and uses TK to carry it away from him, how long does it take for the rock to reach the edge of the psychic's range?

Completely a GM's call, since the speed is not defined.

[The Jack]

Something else to consider. Damage done by telekinetically hurled objects is determined solely by the weight of the object, not the maximum effective range of the power. If the speed at which an object could be telekinetically manipulated increased with the maximum range of the power, then damage should increase each additional level for Telekinesis (Super), which it does not.

[flatline]

If you feel that you have angles that weren't addressed in the following thread, I'd be happy to re-examine the situation:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=121807

Okay, having skimmed that thread, my response is that sometimes you just don't have enough information to logically conclude anything.

Let me know when you've READ it.

I'm not going to spend the effort to decipher the multi-page posts that rebut other multi-page posts line by line for a topic that I have no particular interest in.

Sorry.

However, unless I missed it, it seems like everyone in that thread missed the obvious physics class answer. If you've put enough ISP into your TK to lift X pounds, then if you lift something that weighs less than X, then you can use the remaining available force to accelerate the object in a particular direction until you either (a) hit your range limit, (b) achieve enough speed that air resistance matches your surplus force or (c) hit some arbitrary speed limit imposed by the GM based on how they think TK should work (or game balance).

--flatline

That'd be a great house rule that is nowhere supported by the books.

Unless your books say something different from mine, any rule on the speed of TK will be a house rule since it is conspicuously absent from the power description.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

Unless your books say something different from mine, any rule on the speed of TK will be a house rule since it is conspicuously absent from the power description.

--flatline

Given how Palladium stacks the deck against Psionics it's REALLY unlikely that you can use Telekinesis to do much to harm anyone other than drop a rock on them, you definitely aren't going to be using it to play shotgun with local rocks or other items. That might actually make them *gasp* competitive with mages and guys with railguns.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you feel that you have angles that weren't addressed in the following thread, I'd be happy to re-examine the situation:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=121807

Okay, having skimmed that thread, my response is that sometimes you just don't have enough information to logically conclude anything.

Let me know when you've READ it.

I'm not going to spend the effort to decipher the multi-page posts that rebut other multi-page posts line by line for a topic that I have no particular interest in.

Cool.
Just don't pretend that you haven't dismissed the claims and arguments in there for any other reason.

Unless your books say something different from mine, any rule on the speed of TK will be a house rule since it is conspicuously absent from the power description.

Might want to read that thread sometime.
If it helps you any, you could start Here, where things kind of come to a conclusion:

The normal TK power has a reduced range for heavy objects.

Bingo!
So anything over 20 lbs has the range reduced to 15'.
Which makes everything click into place.

When trying to use normal TK to move something as heavy as a person, you CAN do it, but it's going to be slowed down simply because the range is slowed down.
If you can normally move an object out to 60' in one attack (2-3 seconds), that's pretty fast.
Roughly 240' per melee round, which comes to 960' per minute, or about 10.9 miles per hour, if I have things right.
(check my math on this )

BUT if you drop the range to 1/4 of that, then it's a LOT less useful, moving at only 60' per melee round, or 240' per minute, or about 2.7 miles per hour.
Which is a LOT less useful, slower even than the speed of 6 (about 4 mph) that the MOPs granted.
Which could explain the change from the MOPs to RUE: somebody did enough of the math to know they were way off.
(or they just forgot that they'd ever said it in the first place)
So in RUE, they decided that whatever movement you might be able to accomplish with normal TK, it wouldn't constitute "flying."

Meanwhile, since Super TK lacks that weight restriction, you retain full range of movement regardless of weight, which means that at first level a person with Super TK could move themselves 100' per level.
At first level, this would mean 100' per 2-3 seconds, roughly 400' per melee round, or 1600' per minute, which would come out in the neighborhood of 18.18 miles per hour.
(again, check my math- I'm kinda sleepy)

Not great compared to a jetpack or Fly As The Eagle, but certainly fast enough to constitute "flight."
And since the range increases per level, the speed would be roughly 18 mph per level.

By 5th level, this would be about 90 mph.
By 10th level, this would be about 180 mph.

Which is actually pretty well balanced.

We found the simplest solution that fits all of the facts.

[Killer Cyborg]

The maximum distance from the psychic at which objects of a particular weight may be affected by the power.

Okay.
So if a psychic picks up a rock at his feet, and uses TK to carry it away from him, how long does it take for the rock to reach the edge of the psychic's range?

Completely a GM's call, since the speed is not defined.

And if YOU were the GM, how would you call it?
One attack?
Two attacks?
An hour?

[Killer Cyborg]

The maximum distance from the psychic at which objects of a particular weight may be affected by the power.

Okay.
So if a psychic picks up a rock at his feet, and uses TK to carry it away from him, how long does it take for the rock to reach the edge of the psychic's range?

If the psychic is using the rock in an attack, and therefore maximizing the speed with which the rock can be manipulated through telekinesis, the answer is an undefined time which is less than the time it takes the psychic to complete one melee action.

Why "less than," instead of "less than or equal to?"

I am a little confused by your use of the word carry, however, so if you did not intend for me to reply with what I believe the maximum possible speed is then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I used the word in order to specify that TK was being used for the entire trip.
The alternative would be "throw," in which case TK would only be used for the initial toss, then momentum would carry it the rest of the way.

[Killer Cyborg]

Unless your books say something different from mine, any rule on the speed of TK will be a house rule since it is conspicuously absent from the power description.

--flatline

Given how Palladium stacks the deck against Psionics it's REALLY unlikely that you can use Telekinesis to do much to harm anyone other than drop a rock on them, you definitely aren't going to be using it to play shotgun with local rocks or other items. That might actually make them *gasp* competitive with mages and guys with railguns.

More or less. That's why TK Acceleration Attack is a separate power.
If you use the maximum distance to determine the speed of normal TK, though, it's not going to approach anything near the speed of shot from a shotgun.

[Killer Cyborg]

Something else to consider. Damage done by telekinetically hurled objects is determined solely by the weight of the object, not the maximum effective range of the power. If the speed at which an object could be telekinetically manipulated increased with the maximum range of the power, then damage should increase each additional level for Telekinesis (Super), which it does not.

You'd think, but Palladium isn't that precise with their math.
Just like they determine falling damage by a straight "1d6/10 feet" formula, when really the weight of the object, and the terminal velocity would all come into play.

[The Jack]

Why "less than," instead of "less than or equal to?"

Because I believe that the decision making process is one of the inherent limiting factors in determining the number of actions a character is able to perform each round. As the character advances in level and experience, so does their 'processor speed', which enables them to think more clearly in a chaotic situation in order to plan and execute different courses of action. This process takes time, however, even if it is only a fraction of a second.

Of course, this is not stated explicitly in the rules, so you are correct and I amend my response:
If the psychic is using the rock in an attack, and therefore maximizing the speed with which the rock can be manipulated through telekinesis, the answer is an undefined time which is less than or equal to the time it takes the psychic to complete one melee action.

Although you have already addressed a similar point regarding increased range relative to damage, it is also worth noting that damage per attack does not increase as number of attacks each round increase, which one would expect if the speed with which an object could be telekinetically manipulated increased with attacks each round.

[ShadowLogan]

Is there any text in any of the Palladium RPG Gaming books (any setting), that sets the maximum Speed that (Physical)Telekineses can make something move? Same question about Super TK?
Note: I am not asking about Any Other powers and what they say. So keep it neat and tidy answering the question I asked. (i.e.: Assume I know about the TK accel attack and Hyper TK so no need to bring them up.)

Psi-X Aliens (DBoNA/LS) and Equinoid (SA2) use TK to move at a rate equal to their speed attribute. It might not be what you are looking for.

Alternatively the strike/parry bonus (only thing that applies when used in combat) is equal to having a PP of 22-3, which could also give an idea of how fast it can move (Speed Attribute used to give a dodge bonus after all).

Several other races also have TK-style of movement, but the rate of movement is not based on the Speed Attribute, but seems to be determined some other way (Land Ray in Psycape, Neo-Human in SA2, mutant bird-men in SA2 come to mind).

[Nightmask]

I suppose one could extrapolate roughly how fast you can move something based on how much damage you can do, and keep in mind the mass of the object is quite important. Keeping in mind as well the speed must be quite inferior to the Telekinetic Acceleration Attack which is specialized in moving objects at high speeds (albeit over a short distance). From the looks of the damages the objects are moving about as fast as someone swinging a baseball bat into someone.

[Killer Cyborg]

Why "less than," instead of "less than or equal to?"

Because I believe that the decision making process is one of the inherent limiting factors in determining the number of actions a character is able to perform each round. As the character advances in level and experience, so does their 'processor speed', which enables them to think more clearly in a chaotic situation in order to plan and execute different courses of action. This process takes time, however, even if it is only a fraction of a second.

Of course, this is not stated explicitly in the rules, so you are correct and I amend my response:
If the psychic is using the rock in an attack, and therefore maximizing the speed with which the rock can be manipulated through telekinesis, the answer is an undefined time which is less than or equal to the time it takes the psychic to complete one melee action.

Alright; I can agree to that.
The next question is:
If the psychic uses TK to move himself to the edge of his range, as fast as he could, what do you think would happen?

Although you have already addressed a similar point regarding increased range relative to damage, it is also worth noting that damage per attack does not increase as number of attacks each round increase, which one would expect if the speed with which an object could be telekinetically manipulated increased with attacks each round.

I agree that in a tighter system, that would be something that would be addressed.
But, as you say, it's the same kind of thing as the range/damage issue, and has a similar response. Although I understand that this response is not entirely satisfactory.
With the case of #ofAttacks/speed, though, I think I can compare it to the Physical Speed attribute, where the official method of measuring how far one can move per attack is to divide the number of feet you can move per melee by the number of attacks per melee... resulting in a similar counter-intuitive situation where the more attacks you have, the less you can move per attack.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Using two assumptions: that the TK & STK can move an object from center to edge of range in one melee attack. And a melee attack takes 3 sec.

TK has a speed of 20'/sec or 13.64 mph
STK has a speed of 33.33'/sec/L or 22.725 mph/L
---------------------------
Side Note:
The TK Accel. Attack has the speed set at the same as a "tornado's wind speed".
So I will be defining it as 318 mph. This being the top speed of an F5 tornado.

[Long Shadow]

Re: Telekinesis, "Objects thrown [with Telekinesis] would be equivalent to objects thrown by a physical hand." - RUE p 170

Re: Telekinesis (Super), no real information given.

I think Qev has found the closest canon speed reference in the books. It may not have a value but does indicate a range that TKed objects can move at.

[The Jack]

If the psychic uses TK to move himself to the edge of his range, as fast as he could, what do you think would happen?

The house rule I have used in the past is that TK Flight, and the speed of TK propelled objects in general, is 60 mph. The reason that number was chosen is similar to the reasoning used by drewkitty above in deciding the speed of TK Acceleration Attack. The text states that "objects thrown would be the equivalent of objects thrown by a physical hand."

Based on the varied experience of our group (nothing scientific- primarily baseball, carnival games and knife throwing) a discussion led to all agreeing that a moderately skilled person throwing an object as fast as they were able could reasonably expect to achieve speeds of 60 mph. Not as fast as a major league pitcher, but faster than a kid could throw a pitch in a carnival game. We also agreed this was consistent with the damages as presented.
Both TK and TK(S) were determined to have the same speed based on the fact that damage remains consistent between the two powers.

[Killer Cyborg]

If the psychic uses TK to move himself to the edge of his range, as fast as he could, what do you think would happen?

The house rule I have used in the past is that TK Flight, and the speed of TK propelled objects in general, is 60 mph. The reason that number was chosen is similar to the reasoning used by drewkitty above in deciding the speed of TK Acceleration Attack. The text states that "objects thrown would be the equivalent of objects thrown by a physical hand."

Based on the varied experience of our group (nothing scientific- primarily baseball, carnival games and knife throwing) a discussion led to all agreeing that a moderately skilled person throwing an object as fast as they were able could reasonably expect to achieve speeds of 60 mph. Not as fast as a major league pitcher, but faster than a kid could throw a pitch in a carnival game. We also agreed this was consistent with the damages as presented.
Both TK and TK(S) were determined to have the same speed based on the fact that damage remains consistent between the two powers.

Ah, but if you read RUE 170, or that thread I linked to earlier, you should notice that RUE's description of normal TK states:
Telekinesis does not allow psychics to levitate themselves or fly, due to the weight limitation (see Super Telekinesis.
The only "weight limitation" of TK, other than your amount of ISP (which is often enough to lift a person) is that with heavy objects, the RANGE of the power is reduced:
-With objects weighing 3-20 lbs, the maximum height and distance is reduced by half, to 30'.
-With objects weighing over 20 lbs, the maximum height and distance are dropped to 15'.

Again:
1. The stated reason why Telekinesis cannot be used for flight is due to the "weight limitation."
2. The ONLY weight limitation is the reduced range for heavy objects.

To me, this makes it seem pretty clear that the Range of the power is a significant element in using TK to fly.
Which only really makes sense if the range is the distance that you can move yourself per action.

[The Jack]

I read both the other thread and RUE page 170. I understand your logic, I simply disagree for reasons already stated. From my perspective, "due to the weight limitation" means that TK will not allow someone to fly insofar as there is a weight limitation inherent in the power. Weight is limited only by the amount of ISP the psychic has available.

[The Jack]

To clarify my perspective, I understand that the only weight limitation in TK is related to range. A house rule closer to canon than the one I presented may state that a psychic can only fly using TK(S) due to limitations associated with the minor power.
It still does not follow for me that range determines speed, again for reasons already discussed.

The way in which your reasoning wraps up the loose ends regarding how the unspecified 'weight limitation' prevents a psychic from using TK to fly is appealing, but it creates too many other unresolved issues for my taste.

[Killer Cyborg]

I read both the other thread and RUE page 170. I understand your logic, I simply disagree for reasons already stated. From my perspective, "due to the weight limitation" means that TK will not allow someone to fly insofar as there is a weight limitation inherent in the power. Weight is limited only by the amount of ISP the psychic has available.

IF the reference is supposed to be about an ISP limit due to weight, I think it'd say something about that.
More like, "Flight is only possible if the psychic expends enough ISP to lift the person's weight," not "flight is impossible, due to the weight limitation."
Especially since it's a limitation that would also apply to Super TK as well: if you can't lift your own weight, you can't fly.

[Killer Cyborg]

To clarify my perspective, I understand that the only weight limitation in TK is related to range. A house rule closer to canon than the one I presented may state that a psychic can only fly using TK(S) due to limitations associated with the minor power.
It still does not follow for me that range determines speed, again for reasons already discussed.

The way in which your reasoning wraps up the loose ends regarding how the unspecified 'weight limitation' prevents a psychic from using TK to fly is appealing, but it creates too many other unresolved issues for my taste.

What unresolved issues?

[The Jack]

The ones already discussed: damage relative to range and damage relative to attacks per melee.
As you have stated, Palladium is not particularly on top of its math game. For that reason, I also do not believe that it is plausible that range was intended to be the determining factor in the speed a telekinetically propelled object. It seems even less plausible that such a convoluted system for determining speed would be presented while ignoring any increase in damage resulting from the additional speed.

I believe that the most likely scenario is that the author simply did not want TK flight possible with the minor power, but instead reserve the ability for the super power. The limitation was worded poorly, and too much left to speculation about an unspecified weight limitation, rather than simply forbid flight with TK explicitly.

[Killer Cyborg]

The ones already discussed: damage relative to range and damage relative to attacks per melee.
As you have stated, Palladium is not particularly on top of its math game. For that reason, I also do not believe that it is plausible that range was intended to be the determining factor in the speed a telekinetically propelled object. It seems even less plausible that such a convoluted system for determining speed would be presented while ignoring any increase in damage resulting from the additional speed.

I believe that the most likely scenario is that the author simply did not want TK flight possible with the minor power, but instead reserve the ability for the super power. The limitation was worded poorly, and too much left to speculation about an unspecified weight limitation, rather than simply forbid flight with the TK explicitly.

It wouldn't at all be odd in my opinion for Palladium to have a complete disconnect between the force of a TK-thrown object and the speed that it travels.
Unfortunately, this kind of thing is common.

So I don't think that we're going to be in real agreement here, but at least you seem to see where I'm coming from.

[The Jack]

I definitely see where you are coming from, and I find your logic appealing. It seems we simply have different discrepancies we are comfortable settling for in order to resolve the issue.

I have found this discussion thoroughly enjoyable. Thank you.

[drewkitty ~..~]

TK and STK are "mass effected", not "Force Used."

[Mack]

The maximum distance from the psychic at which objects of a particular weight may be affected by the power.

Okay.
So if a psychic picks up a rock at his feet, and uses TK to carry it away from him, how long does it take for the rock to reach the edge of the psychic's range?

Completely a GM's call, since the speed is not defined.

And if YOU were the GM, how would you call it?
One attack?
Two attacks?
An hour?

I would first define the speed. My first thought is something like:
TK Speed in miles per hour = ME + character's level

But I haven't the time right now to do the math to see if I care for the result. I'd likely have to refine it or find another mechanic.

[Killer Cyborg]

And if YOU were the GM, how would you call it?
One attack?
Two attacks?
An hour?

I would first define the speed. My first thought is something like:
TK Speed in miles per hour = ME + character's level

But I haven't the time right now to do the math to see if I care for the result. I'd likely have to refine it or find another mechanic.

Why not just assume that it takes one attack to reach the max range?

[Mack]

And if YOU were the GM, how would you call it?
One attack?
Two attacks?
An hour?

I would first define the speed. My first thought is something like:
TK Speed in miles per hour = ME + character's level

But I haven't the time right now to do the math to see if I care for the result. I'd likely have to refine it or find another mechanic.

Why not just assume that it takes one attack to reach the max range?

Because I see no reason for range and speed to be directly related. While that may prove to be a useful relationship, it's not where I would start.

For that matter, I'm not enthused about my own previous suggestion. Too much math involved. I'd rather it just be GM narrative. Otherwise it devolves into solving a physics problem (force applied, object mass, acceleration...) instead of just enjoying the game.

[drewkitty ~..~]

And if YOU were the GM, how would you call it?
One attack?
Two attacks?
An hour?

I would first define the speed. My first thought is something like:
TK Speed in miles per hour = ME + character's level

But I haven't the time right now to do the math to see if I care for the result. I'd likely have to refine it or find another mechanic.

Why not just assume that it takes one attack to reach the max range?

Because I see no reason for range and speed to be directly related. While that may prove to be a useful relationship, it's not where I would start.

For that matter, I'm not enthused about my own previous suggestion. Too much math involved. I'd rather it just be GM narrative. Otherwise it devolves into solving a physics problem (force applied, object mass, acceleration...) instead of just enjoying the game.

Which is how this topic started, asking that question.

[Tor]

if you have a range of 1,000' with your TK, that means you can pick up an object at your feet, and move it 1,000' away in one action.

Since there are rules for how far you can throw things based on PS, and since TK lifting ability is kinda like PS, couldn't we get movement distance based on that?

I just can't help but think if you're right that this is very prone to broken. Looking to HU for example...

The basic physical has a fixed range of 60ft, meaning if you grasped something and moved it from 1 end of your range to the other, it'd be 120ft. In one action...

"hurling" damage is based purely on the weight of objects though. Not on "if you have more actions, you move targets faster" damage...

Which makes me think range is just purely the range at which you can influence things but not the range at which you can move them in a single attack.

[Killer Cyborg]

if you have a range of 1,000' with your TK, that means you can pick up an object at your feet, and move it 1,000' away in one action.

Since there are rules for how far you can throw things based on PS, and since TK lifting ability is kinda like PS, couldn't we get movement distance based on that?

We could.
I'm just going with the official rules, as best I understand them.