Query about South America II

[Giant2005]

If the South America books were written just as they are now, except everything in there was 50% less powerful, would that lower the quality of the books somehow?
I can't see how.

If the nations described in the pages weren't described to be technologically advanced or as powerful as the fluff claims them to be, then I would almost agree with you (I say almost because 50% is obviously a hideously huge number - a number large enough to give the South American residents technology among the weakest in the Megaverse).
However, that wouldn't even remotely resemble the books we have.
We already have the likes of Australia and North America to play the sorts of campaigns you describe.
Those that enjoy superior alien-tech and want it to have an impact on the Rifts environment (As it should - considering that is the whole point of Rifts in the first place), have the likes of South America and Atlantis.
Reducing South America to just another North America clone is not something I am even remotely interested in. It is the differences that make the book worth reading.

[Forar]

Not to speak for KC, but it is an issue with game design in a lot of series and mediums; if you establish that a baseline is X, and then introduce gear, classes and abilities that push 1.5X or 2X, and then you want to introduce a BIG BAD SCARY ENEMY, what baseline do you go with? If you tune them so that characters at X level are wetting themselves, the 2X's are probably just figuring out how much exp and loot they're about to rake in. Balance it for 2X, and and the 2X characters are wetting themselves and the X's are now smears on the battlefield because the enemy looked at them funny.

Basically, it's an issue with trying to present enhanced risk on a sliding scale.

On a group level one can counter an issue with power level in a specific book or books by banning them, yes, but presumably this disparity is something that has to be accounted for as books are produced as well. Meaning that even if I ban those books, their existence may well be affecting future releases anyway.

[Giant2005]

Not to speak for KC, but it is an issue with game design in a lot of series and mediums; if you establish that a baseline is X, and then introduce gear, classes and abilities that push 1.5X or 2X, and then you want to introduce a BIG BAD SCARY ENEMY, what baseline do you go with? If you tune them so that characters at X level are wetting themselves, the 2X's are probably just figuring out how much exp and loot they're about to rake in. Balance it for 2X, and and the 2X characters are wetting themselves and the X's are now smears on the battlefield because the enemy looked at them funny.

Basically, it's an issue with trying to present enhanced risk on a sliding scale.

On a group level one can counter an issue with power level in a specific book or books by banning them, yes, but presumably this disparity is something that has to be accounted for as books are produced as well. Meaning that even if I ban those books, their existence may well be affecting future releases anyway.

I'd rather leave balancing in the hands of the GM than the writers.
I hate it when the writers write all of their fluff to indicate that alien society X are technological powerhouses and then stat out their gear to be on par with the low-tech nations. Already the game seems to cater too much to balance and not enough to the narrative.
I'd rate a book that has well-reasoned technology over one that has balanced technology virtually every time. The margin of error comes into play when the content of the books, no matter how well reasoned is just junk. In that case, I am pretty sure I'd prefer the balanced book that had more substance.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ignoring the weapon and armor statistics, are the Amazons the only regional power that are conceptually garbage and can't be salvaged?

For instance, if them being MDC is the biggest canon complaint, that matters little to folks like me who have done away with MDC entirely.

--flatline

1. I'll give a more thorough examination when I get home.
2. Having MDC Amazons is only part of the problem. And it's a part that wouldn't be fixed by switching them to having gobs of SDC in an SDC setting.
The other problem is that it's quite simply a lame, CHEESY idea.

[Killer Cyborg]

Giant, you seem to be saying that the only (or perhaps chief) thing that distinguishes one region from another is how powerful the weapons and armor are.

[Forar]

I'd rather leave balancing in the hands of the GM than the writers.
I hate it when the writers write all of their fluff to indicate that alien society X are technological powerhouses and then stat out their gear to be on par with the low-tech nations. Already the game seems to cater too much to balance and not enough to the narrative.
I'd rate a book that has well-reasoned technology over one that has balanced technology virtually every time. The margin of error comes into play when the content of the books, no matter how well reasoned is just junk. In that case, I am pretty sure I'd prefer the balanced book that had more substance.

Except most GM's aren't professional game designers, so putting extra work on them can be very hit and miss.

And it's funny, but your second point is exactly the problem I'm addressing; if your average NA weapon does 3-4d6 MD, and your average SA weapon does 1d4x10, then if you set the new opponent's MDC at 50, the NA team is going to need 3 attacks to kill one foe, whereas the SA team will take 2. Now put that up to 500 MDSC, the disparity is now 30 to 20. You have to balance your challenges against what a group can do.

And your final point is a false dichotomy. It doesn't have to be an either/or; you can have books that are both well balanced AND well reasoned. You're a modern consumer, demand more from those who wish to curry your patronage!

[Giant2005]

Giant, you seem to be saying that the only (or perhaps chief) thing that distinguishes one region from another is how powerful the weapons and armor are.

No. The fluff is what distinguishes one region from another and the stats of the weapons absolutely must represent that fluff accurately.
If you want to reduce the power of the technology by 50% then the claims made in the fluff have to be reduced also.
The Megaversal Legion couldn't possibly hope to hold off the Mechanoids for any length of time if they were equipped worse than the average Merc.
The Arkhons wouldn't be qorld conquerors akin to the Splugorth if they didn't have the means to back up their ambition.

The fluff relating to those two forces among others in South America would have to be completely changed if their technology was balanced with North America. Their stuff is stronger because it is supposed to be - the feats attributed to them would be near impossible otherwise.
If you want everything to be balanced around the same level as that in North America (Tech all created by humanity) then you remove superior, alien tech from the equation.
Unless you want Earth's humanity to be the most technologically advanced race in the Megaverse, or for Rifts to have some magical property that prevents technology more advanced than Earth's humanity's from coming through; Then what you want cannot possibly happen in any logical manner.

This game is titled "Rifts", it is about the impact of the Rifts on our planet. The entire concept loses a whole lot of its flavour if you remove the technological advantages that some alien civilizations have access to.

[Killer Cyborg]

What part of the fluff explains the tech level of the Colombians?

[Giant2005]

What part of the fluff explains the tech level of the Colombians?

They are a civilization with the majority of its Pre-Rifts facilities intact that benefited from a tolerant perspective, allowing them to readily accept aid from magic users and alien races. Among which, were an alien race of technologically advanced Dwarves.
With all of that in mind, they should have technology which is at least on par with that of the Coalition States, although realistically they should be far superior.
The problem is, I agree with you. The tech presented in the books does not reflect the fluff relating to Columbia. Columbia's tech is on a lower level than that of the likes of the Coalition, and it shouldn't be.
Columbia's RC-10 has a lower payload and less damage than the CS's C-20. It does have a little more range but not enough to consider them equals, specially considering they are pistols and range is not their primary attribute.
The RC-15 Vs C-12 is a closer comparison. They have the same damage potential (3D6+6 vs 4D6) but the RC-15 has a better average. They have the same payload but the big difference is the C-12 has double the range of the RC-15. As Rifles, range is far more important than it is in a pistol. These two are close in damage but the vast difference in range gives it again to the CS.
The Dragon-1 Vs C-27 is pretty close too. The Coalition Weapon does more damage and has better range but the Columbian weapon has a higher Payload. I'd consider this a draw, damage and range sounds great right up until the Columbian guy still has two shots to finish off his enemy while the CS guy is reloading.
The RP-C20 Vs C-5 probably goes to Columbia. The Columbian pistol does less damage but has a higher payload and range.
The RR-C40 Vs C-29 goes heavily in the favour of the CS. The CS wins in all categories: damage, range, and payload (Accuracy too, the Columbian weapons don't have the strike bonuses that the CS do but I am ignoring that).
The RAR-C15 Vs C-40R goes again to the CS. Damage is the same but range and payload both fall in the CS's favour.
To be honest, I have no idea what to compare the RA-C15 to... It is a vehicle mounted weapon and every vehicle mounted CS weapon I tried to compare it to weighed 10x as much as the RA-C15 and it didn't seem fair. So I am going to go ahead and declare the Columbians to win on this front - simply because they seem to have managed to micronize their mounted weapons far better than the CS has.

I'm not going to compare the Robots/PAs/Vehicles in the same way as it seems to be a bit of a waste of time. Just a glance seems good enough to see that the Columbian stuff doesn't hold a candle to the CS in these fields.

[wyrmraker]

I don't have any problems with allowing most of the material in SA1. But as I recall, this is supposed to be about the power levels in SA2.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't have any problems with allowing most of the material in SA1. But as I recall, this is supposed to be about the power levels in SA2.

A fair point; I tend to lump the two of them together.
Of course, part of the issue with the power levels in SA2 is that the power levels are based on SA1, which was overpowered.

[Forar]

Perhaps this was just my group, but I don't even remember the last time range was a consideration in our Rifts campaigns.

There were basically two ranges; melee and shooting. Does it really matter if something has a 1000ft range versus a 2000ft range if the vast majority of your encounters are at 100ft and less?

Granted, yes, there will be times you end up with a sniper a half a mile off providing fire support, or are engaged in a running/flying gunbattle with vehicles doing hundreds of miles per hour and a few hundred feet could be the difference between in range and not, but generally most of our stuff was closer, more personal. Shouting distance, if that, unless we were lucky enough to know when/where our target was going to be and could set up an ambush ahead of time. And even then, you generally had to close in to flush them out anyway.

Going with extreme ranges is just a good way to split up the party.

And as we learned from Wil Wheaton; never split up the party.

[flatline]

Once the fight has begun, range doesn't matter much in small party combat.

However, range can matter quite a bit before the fight starts. If I'm sneaking up on you to take a shot, you're far more likely to detect me and ruin my surprise if I have to get within 1000' vs 2000' (depending on terrain, of course). As a magic user, I'm far less likely to be detected by Dogboys at 2000' than 1000', for instance.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

What part of the fluff explains the tech level of the Colombians?

They are a civilization with the majority of its Pre-Rifts facilities intact that benefited from a tolerant perspective, allowing them to readily accept aid from magic users and alien races.

I don't see any mention of the majority of pre-Rifts facilities being intact, only 4 military bases.
And one pre-Rifts weapons factory (SA 23).
If I've missed any key passages, please cite them for me.

And looking at the races that they accept, you have:
Dwarves
Lizard men
Elves
Jungle Elves
Were-Jaguars
Dragons
and "Other D-Bees and Non-Humanoids" to the tune of 5,000.

Among which, were an alien race of technologically advanced Dwarves.

No... there was a race of dwarves with advanced techno-wizardry.
Even though Techno-Wizardry was previously described as an invention of North America.
That could explain the Anti-Monsters, but not so much with the tech advances.

With all of that in mind, they should have technology which is at least on par with that of the Coalition States, although realistically they should be far superior.
The problem is, I agree with you. The tech presented in the books does not reflect the fluff relating to Columbia. Columbia's tech is on a lower level than that of the likes of the Coalition, and it shouldn't be.

Only if you buy that elves, dwarves, etc. would affect the technology that much, and I can't find anything stating any significant impact by these other races, tech-wise.
The Rocket weapons are based on pre-Rifts designs, and the Jaguar light robot vehicle; is "built with pre-Rifts technology,", for example.
Other than the Anti-Monster, I can't find any references to D-Bees affecting the general tech level, or any specific equipment.

Columbia's RC-10 has a lower payload and less damage than the CS's C-20.

Yes, it has a lower payload and inflicts less damage than a weapon from a book that was published 2 years after South America was published, and that primarily served to boost the CS's power levels up to compete with all the power creep that had been going on.
But the more accurate comparison would be the C-18, since that was the standard at the time.

The RC-15 Vs C-12 is a closer comparison. They have the same damage potential (3D6+6 vs 4D6) but the RC-15 has a better average.

Yes.
I already broke this down in a previous post.

They have the same payload but the big difference is the C-12 has double the range of the RC-15. As Rifles, range is far more important than it is in a pistol. These two are close in damage but the vast difference in range gives it again to the CS.

Except that the 4d6 MD for the C-12 is a 5-shot burst, and the 3d6+6 is for a single shot from the RC-15.
A 5-shot burst from the RC-15 would do about 6d6+12 MD, and a full clip would inflict either (3d6+6)x10 MD or (3d6+6)x7 MD, depending on if SA1 came out before or after CB1.
(I think it was after)

The RAR-C15 Vs C-40R goes again to the CS. Damage is the same but range and payload both fall in the CS's favour.

Actually, an 8-round burst for 1d4x10 MD is NOT the same as a 40 round burst for 1d4x10 MD. One is clearly more efficient than the other.
Likewise, a weapon capable of inflicting a maximum of 2d4x10 MD per attack is not the same as a weapon that inflicts a maximum of 1d4x10 MD per attack. Again, one is clearly superior to the other.

Furthermore, as I've already covered in a previous post, the rocket rifle for infantry is a more even match for the Coalition's rail gun for its main power armor.
Each has a 1d4x10 maximum, even if the RR-C40 inflicts that damage in only 10 shots instead of 40.
The RR-C40 has a shorter range, but it also only costs CR 35,000, as opposed to the C-40R's cost of CR 110,000.

[Forar]

However, range can matter quite a bit before the fight starts. If I'm sneaking up on you to take a shot, you're far more likely to detect me and ruin my surprise if I have to get within 1000' vs 2000' (depending on terrain, of course). As a magic user, I'm far less likely to be detected by Dogboys at 2000' than 1000', for instance.

I guess that just depends on the party and players to a large degree.

We generally didn't pick many fights from half a klick away.

[Killer Cyborg]

Once the fight has begun, range doesn't matter much in small party combat.

However, range can matter quite a bit before the fight starts. If I'm sneaking up on you to take a shot, you're far more likely to detect me and ruin my surprise if I have to get within 1000' vs 2000' (depending on terrain, of course). As a magic user, I'm far less likely to be detected by Dogboys at 2000' than 1000', for instance.

--flatline

Agreed.

[Giant2005]

Yes, it has a lower payload and inflicts less damage than a weapon from a book that was published 2 years after South America was published, and that primarily served to boost the CS's power levels up to compete with all the power creep that had been going on.
But the more accurate comparison would be the C-18, since that was the standard at the time.

Irrelevant.
Regardless of whatever your feelings were at the time of writing, time has passed.
I was under the assumption that you were complaining Columbia is overpowered. Not that is used to be overpowered. My bad if the latter is the more correct statement.

Except that the 4d6 MD for the C-12 is a 5-shot burst, and the 3d6+6 is for a single shot from the RC-15.
A 5-shot burst from the RC-15 would do about 6d6+12 MD, and a full clip would inflict either (3d6+6)x10 MD or (3d6+6)x7 MD, depending on if SA1 came out before or after CB1.
(I think it was after)

After checking RUE, you are right. I was basing that comparison off of the CWC which my book erroneously lists the CV-212 as the C-12. The comparison I made was for the CV-212.

Actually, an 8-round burst for 1d4x10 MD is NOT the same as a 40 round burst for 1d4x10 MD. One is clearly more efficient than the other.
Likewise, a weapon capable of inflicting a maximum of 2d4x10 MD per attack is not the same as a weapon that inflicts a maximum of 1d4x10 MD per attack. Again, one is clearly superior to the other.

The CS weapon has the ability to fire 50 1D4x10 bursts, the Columbian weapon has the ability to fire 25 1d4x10 bursts. The CS weapon is exactly twice as efficient as the Columbian weapon.
The 2D4x10 damage you mentioned is nonsensical. It is a long burst that requires two actions, both the CS and Columbian weapons are capable of firing short bursts for the same damage over time, with better relative ammo efficiency.

Furthermore, as I've already covered in a previous post, the rocket rifle for infantry is a more even match for the Coalition's rail gun for its main power armor.
Each has a 1d4x10 maximum, even if the RR-C40 inflicts that damage in only 10 shots instead of 40.
The RR-C40 has a shorter range, but it also only costs CR 35,000, as opposed to the C-40R's cost of CR 110,000.

Yes.
If payload and range aren't issues, then the RR-C40 is on par with the C-40R. However, if payload and range aren't issues, then the RR-C40 loses out to several coalition infantry weapons - one of which I already mentioned in the comparisons.

[Killer Cyborg]

Giant, you seem to be saying that the only (or perhaps chief) thing that distinguishes one region from another is how powerful the weapons and armor are.

No. The fluff is what distinguishes one region from another and the stats of the weapons absolutely must represent that fluff accurately.
If you want to reduce the power of the technology by 50% then the claims made in the fluff have to be reduced also.

Agreed.
But I don't think that this would have significant impact on the setting.

The Megaversal Legion couldn't possibly hope to hold off the Mechanoids for any length of time if they were equipped worse than the average Merc.

Good. That bit of fluff should be changed in any case, since it never really made any sense, even with their current firepower.

The Arkhons wouldn't be qorld conquerors akin to the Splugorth if they didn't have the means to back up their ambition.

I don't think that they are akin to the Splugorth.
They've had technology as long as the Atlanteans, and they have conquered "over hundreds of worlds," which is to say, 1,000 or more.
But they also attacked Earth once, and failed... then spent 2,000 years planning their next attack... and failed again.
Nothing about that necessitates technology that's well-advanced past what's in North America. You don't need super-duper damage capabilities in order to twice fail invading the same planet, even after spending thousands of years preparing between assaults.
But since you brought it up... let's compare the Arkhon to the stuff in Atlantis.

The main army of the Splugorth are the Kittani.
The Kittani are (Atlantis 52):
-A species that "conquered many worlds" in their own right.
-A species that has been employed by the Splugorth for 38,000 years.
-A species that has Telemechanics as a racial power.
-A species that loves "high technology, so the more advanced and deadly the better."

So while the Kittani aren't the most powerful of the Splugorth's minions, they're the main shock troops, and the main actual army, at least for Splyncryth.
And they were on-par with the Arkhon on the level of "going around conquering worlds" department... 38,000 years ago.
Seems like they should be a good match.
Let's find out.

Comparing Kittani gear to Arkhon gear:
A TB-3 Energy Pistol inflicts 2d4 MD, x2 damage to most materials. Single shots only. 500' range. 15 shots per E-Clip. CR 12,000.
A KEP-Special Energy Pistol inflicts 5d6 MD. Single shot only. 200' range. 10 blasts per E-Clip. CR 26,000.

The TB-3 inflicts less damage, even if we assume that they get the x2 damage (which they usually would). 4d4 MD has an average of 10 MD per shot, vs. the KEP Special's average of 19.5 MD per shot.
Advantage there clearly goes to the Kittani, as it probably should.
But that's the only area where the Kittani are superior- The Arkhon's pistol has over 2x the range, 50% more shots per e-clip, and costs less than half as much.
I can see arguments either way in this comparison, as each weapon has its own advantages and disadvantages.
Which means that they're pretty well balanced.

BUT while the KEP-Special seems to be the standard sidearm of Kittani soldiers, the TB-3 is "issued to support personnel (clerks, mechanics, medics) and other non-combat positions."
The standard sidearm of Arkhon soldiers is the TB-9:
A TB-9 Auto-Pistol inflicts 4d6 MD, x2 damage to most materials. ROF: Standard (i.e., can fire bursts). 1200' range. 30 shots per E-Clip. CR 30,000-90,000.
A KEP-Special Energy Pistol inflicts 5d6 MD. Single shot only. 200' range. 10 blasts per E-Clip. CR 26,000.

So while the uber-high-tech Kittani have a pistol that does an impressive 5d6 MD per attack, for an average of 19.5 MD per attack, with a maximum of 30 MD... the Arkhon have a pistol that can deliver an average of 28 MD per attack (only 2 MD less than the Kittani weapon's maximum, with a maximum damage of 48 MD (over 50% more than the KEP's maximum).
And that's if the TB-9 is only firing single shots.
If it's firing a short burst of 6 rounds, then it's inflicting 4d6x4 MD, for an average damage of 56 MD per attack, with a maximum of 96 MD.
If it's firing a long burst of 15 shots, then it's inflicting 4d6x6 MD per attack, for an average damage of 84 MD per attack, with a maximum of 144 MD per attack.

Next, let's look at the standard rifles.
The K-4 Laser Pulse Rifle inflicts 3d6+6 MD per shot (same as Colombia's laser rifle, you'll note), or 1d6x10+6 MD per 3-shot pulse. Range is 2,000'. 30 per long E-Clip. CR 75,000.
The TB-Prime Energy Rifle inflicts 5d6 MD per shot (x2 to most targets) with its beam, and has a grenade launcher with grenades that inflict 4d6 MD to a 12' area. Range is 2,000'. 30 shots per E-Clip, and 3 grenades in the launcher. Captured rifles sell for CR 60,000-CR 160,000, due to scarcity.

The K-4 inflicts 23.5 MD per average single shot, or 41 MD per average pulse. The KE-4 has a maximum damage of 24 MD per single shot, or 66 MD per 3-shot pulse.
The TB-Prime inflicts 35 MD per average single shot, 70 MD per average short burst of 6 rounds, and 105 MD per average burst of 15 rounds.
The TB-Prime has a maximum damage of 60 MD per single shot, 120 MD per average short burst of 6 rounds, and 180 MD per average burst of 15 rounds.

I can compare other stuff, if you like, but that's all I have time for right now.

Rifts: Atlantis set the power level for world-conquerers, and the standard of power was the Kittani.
And the Kittani's weapons are no match for the Arkhon's weapons; their technology is inferior.
But SHOULD it be?
I don't think so.
I don't see any reason why the Arkhon couldn't have been written just the same, only with gear that was knocked down to Kittani levels of power.
I don't think that would have ruined the setting, or even changed it significantly. The only real effect would be to have power levels that were in keeping with the established power levels for the Arkhon's bracket, for similar super-high-tech races of world-conquerers, instead of effectively doubling it.

The fluff relating to those two forces among others in South America would have to be completely changed if their technology was balanced with North America. Their stuff is stronger because it is supposed to be - the feats attributed to them would be near impossible otherwise.
If you want everything to be balanced around the same level as that in North America (Tech all created by humanity) then you remove superior, alien tech from the equation.
Unless you want Earth's humanity to be the most technologically advanced race in the Megaverse, or for Rifts to have some magical property that prevents technology more advanced than Earth's humanity's from coming through; Then what you want cannot possibly happen in any logical manner.

This game is titled "Rifts", it is about the impact of the Rifts on our planet. The entire concept loses a whole lot of its flavour if you remove the technological advantages that some alien civilizations have access to.

Edit:
Oh, and as has been pointed out (By Nightmask, to me) the Arkhon aren't from another dimension.
So the argument of inter-dimensional tech doesn't apply to them.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yes, it has a lower payload and inflicts less damage than a weapon from a book that was published 2 years after South America was published, and that primarily served to boost the CS's power levels up to compete with all the power creep that had been going on.
But the more accurate comparison would be the C-18, since that was the standard at the time.

Irrelevant.
Regardless of whatever your feelings were at the time of writing, time has passed.
I was under the assumption that you were complaining Columbia is overpowered. Not that is used to be overpowered. My bad if the latter is the more correct statement.

If you prefer, I could refer to the in-game timelines, pointing out that the Colombians had superior tech to the CS in 100-104 PA, and that the CS only caught up in 105 PA, partially using technology that they got from Triax.

Except that the 4d6 MD for the C-12 is a 5-shot burst, and the 3d6+6 is for a single shot from the RC-15.
A 5-shot burst from the RC-15 would do about 6d6+12 MD, and a full clip would inflict either (3d6+6)x10 MD or (3d6+6)x7 MD, depending on if SA1 came out before or after CB1.
(I think it was after)

After checking RUE, you are right. I was basing that comparison off of the CWC which my book erroneously lists the CV-212 as the C-12. The comparison I made was for the CV-212.

The C-12/CV-212/CV-213 stats have always been messed up and confusing.

Actually, an 8-round burst for 1d4x10 MD is NOT the same as a 40 round burst for 1d4x10 MD. One is clearly more efficient than the other.
Likewise, a weapon capable of inflicting a maximum of 2d4x10 MD per attack is not the same as a weapon that inflicts a maximum of 1d4x10 MD per attack. Again, one is clearly superior to the other.

The CS weapon has the ability to fire 50 1D4x10 bursts, the Columbian weapon has the ability to fire 25 1d4x10 bursts. The CS weapon is exactly twice as efficient as the Columbian weapon.

In that sense, yes.
Not in terms of per-shot accuracy or damage.

The 2D4x10 damage you mentioned is nonsensical. It is a long burst that requires two actions, both the CS and Columbian weapons are capable of firing short bursts for the same damage over time, with better relative ammo efficiency.

Where does it say that the long burst takes two actions?

Furthermore, as I've already covered in a previous post, the rocket rifle for infantry is a more even match for the Coalition's rail gun for its main power armor.
Each has a 1d4x10 maximum, even if the RR-C40 inflicts that damage in only 10 shots instead of 40.
The RR-C40 has a shorter range, but it also only costs CR 35,000, as opposed to the C-40R's cost of CR 110,000.

Yes.
If payload and range aren't issues, then the RR-C40 is on par with the C-40R. However, if payload and range aren't issues, then the RR-C40 loses out to several coalition infantry weapons - one of which I already mentioned in the comparisons.

No. If payload and range aren't issues, then the RR-C40 is still nearly 1/3 of the cost of the C-40R, clearly winning out as the overall superior technology.

[Giant2005]

I don't think that they are akin to the Splugorth.
They've had technology as long as the Atlanteans, and they have conquered "over hundreds of worlds," which is to say, 1,000 or more.
But they also attacked Earth once, and failed... then spent 2,000 years planning their next attack... and failed again.
Nothing about that necessitates technology that's well-advanced past what's in North America. You don't need super-duper damage capabilities in order to twice fail invading the same planet, even after spending thousands of years preparing between assaults.
But since you brought it up... let's compare the Arkhon to the stuff in Atlantis.

The main army of the Splugorth are the Kittani.
The Kittani are (Atlantis 52):
-A species that "conquered many worlds" in their own right.
-A species that has been employed by the Splugorth for 38,000 years.
-A species that has Telemechanics as a racial power.
-A species that loves "high technology, so the more advanced and deadly the better."

So while the Kittani aren't the most powerful of the Splugorth's minions, they're the main shock troops, and the main actual army, at least for Splyncryth.
And they were on-par with the Arkhon on the level of "going around conquering worlds" department... 38,000 years ago.
Seems like they should be a good match.
Let's find out.

Comparing Kittani gear to Arkhon gear:
A TB-3 Energy Pistol inflicts 2d4 MD, x2 damage to most materials. Single shots only. 500' range. 15 shots per E-Clip. CR 12,000.
A KEP-Special Energy Pistol inflicts 5d6 MD. Single shot only. 200' range. 10 blasts per E-Clip. CR 26,000.

The TB-3 inflicts less damage, even if we assume that they get the x2 damage (which they usually would). 4d4 MD has an average of 10 MD per shot, vs. the KEP Special's average of 19.5 MD per shot.
Advantage there clearly goes to the Kittani, as it probably should.
But that's the only area where the Kittani are superior- The Arkhon's pistol has over 2x the range, 50% more shots per e-clip, and costs less than half as much.
I can see arguments either way in this comparison, as each weapon has its own advantages and disadvantages.
Which means that they're pretty well balanced.

BUT while the KEP-Special seems to be the standard sidearm of Kittani soldiers, the TB-3 is "issued to support personnel (clerks, mechanics, medics) and other non-combat positions."
The standard sidearm of Arkhon soldiers is the TB-9:
A TB-9 Auto-Pistol inflicts 4d6 MD, x2 damage to most materials. ROF: Standard (i.e., can fire bursts). 1200' range. 30 shots per E-Clip. CR 30,000-90,000.
A KEP-Special Energy Pistol inflicts 5d6 MD. Single shot only. 200' range. 10 blasts per E-Clip. CR 26,000.

So while the uber-high-tech Kittani have a pistol that does an impressive 5d6 MD per attack, for an average of 19.5 MD per attack, with a maximum of 30 MD... the Arkhon have a pistol that can deliver an average of 28 MD per attack (only 2 MD less than the Kittani weapon's maximum, with a maximum damage of 48 MD (over 50% more than the KEP's maximum).
And that's if the TB-9 is only firing single shots.
If it's firing a short burst of 6 rounds, then it's inflicting 4d6x4 MD, for an average damage of 56 MD per attack, with a maximum of 96 MD.
If it's firing a long burst of 15 shots, then it's inflicting 4d6x6 MD per attack, for an average damage of 84 MD per attack, with a maximum of 144 MD per attack.

Next, let's look at the standard rifles.
The K-4 Laser Pulse Rifle inflicts 3d6+6 MD per shot (same as Colombia's laser rifle, you'll note), or 1d6x10+6 MD per 3-shot pulse. Range is 2,000'. 30 per long E-Clip. CR 75,000.
The TB-Prime Energy Rifle inflicts 5d6 MD per shot (x2 to most targets) with its beam, and has a grenade launcher with grenades that inflict 4d6 MD to a 12' area. Range is 2,000'. 30 shots per E-Clip, and 3 grenades in the launcher. Captured rifles sell for CR 60,000-CR 160,000, due to scarcity.

The K-4 inflicts 23.5 MD per average single shot, or 41 MD per average pulse. The KE-4 has a maximum damage of 24 MD per single shot, or 66 MD per 3-shot pulse.
The TB-Prime inflicts 35 MD per average single shot, 70 MD per average short burst of 6 rounds, and 105 MD per average burst of 15 rounds.
The TB-Prime has a maximum damage of 60 MD per single shot, 120 MD per average short burst of 6 rounds, and 180 MD per average burst of 15 rounds.

I can compare other stuff, if you like, but that's all I have time for right now.

Rifts: Atlantis set the power level for world-conquerers, and the standard of power was the Kittani.
And the Kittani's weapons are no match for the Arkhon's weapons; their technology is inferior.
But SHOULD it be?
I don't think so.
I don't see any reason why the Arkhon couldn't have been written just the same, only with gear that was knocked down to Kittani levels of power.
I don't think that would have ruined the setting, or even changed it significantly. The only real effect would be to have power levels that were in keeping with the established power levels for the Arkhon's bracket, for similar super-high-tech races of world-conquerers, instead of effectively doubling it.





The fluff relating to those two forces among others in South America would have to be completely changed if their technology was balanced with North America. Their stuff is stronger because it is supposed to be - the feats attributed to them would be near impossible otherwise.
If you want everything to be balanced around the same level as that in North America (Tech all created by humanity) then you remove superior, alien tech from the equation.
Unless you want Earth's humanity to be the most technologically advanced race in the Megaverse, or for Rifts to have some magical property that prevents technology more advanced than Earth's humanity's from coming through; Then what you want cannot possibly happen in any logical manner.

This game is titled "Rifts", it is about the impact of the Rifts on our planet. The entire concept loses a whole lot of its flavour if you remove the technological advantages that some alien civilizations have access to.

[/quote]
This seems like a fair comparison.
I do disagree on the interpretation however. You have highlighted my biggest complaint on the fluff vs statistics annoyance that Rifts is plagued with.
The fluff claims the Kittani are a technologically advanced race of world conquerors but their weapons don't statistically represent that fact. As presented to us, their technology is far from superior. Looking at the stats, they seem rather inferior to weapons commonly found in North America.
That is exactly my complaint and why I object to nerfing other supposedly technologically advanced races for the sake of "balance" the Kittani gear should be vastly more powerful than it is, or their fluff should be altered or at least expanded on to justify the fact that their stuff is comparable to or inferior to those of human design.

[flatline]

Maybe both the Arkons and the Kitanni are world conquerors because they are capable of space travel and choose to attack worlds that are less developed.

If the roman legions could have somehow traveled to a world entirely populated by cavemen, the Romans could have been "world conquerors" too.

Heck, maybe the Kitanni conquered planets that had superior technology just by overwhelming them with numbers.

The point that I'm trying to make is that being a world conqueror doesn't actually imply anything about your tech level except that it was sufficient in combination with a host of other factors to overwhelm the population of another planet.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

This seems like a fair comparison.
I do disagree on the interpretation however. You have highlighted my biggest complaint on the fluff vs statistics annoyance that Rifts is plagued with.
The fluff claims the Kittani are a technologically advanced race of world conquerors but their weapons don't statistically represent that fact. As presented to us, their technology is far from superior. Looking at the stats, they seem rather inferior to weapons commonly found in North America.
That is exactly my complaint and why I object to nerfing other supposedly technologically advanced races for the sake of "balance" the Kittani gear should be vastly more powerful than it is, or their fluff should be altered or at least expanded on to justify the fact that their stuff is comparable to or inferior to those of human design.

I think that the problem is that you have vastly under-estimated the power of the weapons commonly found in North America, assuming that they represent a kind of megaversal average, rather than representing the megaversal high-end of things.
But in the early books, that wasn't the case.

You can compare the power levels and say,
"North America is superior to the Zentraedi (except for space craft and cloning), North America is almost caught up to the Kittani, North America isn't too far behind the Mechanoids (weapon-wise)... therefore, all these other powers should be vastly more powerful than they're represented"
OR
You can compare the power levels and say, "North America is superior to the Zentraedi (except for space craft and cloning), North America is almost caught up to the Kittani, North America isn't too far behind the Mechanoids... therefore, North America is pretty darned badass when it comes to high technology."

Heck, even the GODs have borrowed tech from North America: Mummu the Maker has a TW-converted SAMAS. I mean sure... he tricked it out with TW conversions, but of all the stuff in the Megaverse, he chose to trick out a suit of armor from the Coalition.

To me, I look at all this stuff, and none of it seems to show that Rifts Earth is in the middle-grounds of tech levels.
To me, it seems pretty clearly to be high-end stuff that can at least try to compete with the best that the Megaverse has to offer.

And yes... that picture changes once you bring in stuff like the Arkhon, the Megaversal Legion, and Phase World... but that's a change in the picture, not the original image of things.
And I think that it's a change brought about by people assuming that the tech shown in the early Rifts books for some reason represents the low end of the spectrum, that pistols that have as much damage output as 10-20 sticks of dynamite per shot aren't going to be on the high-end of the spectrum, or even the high middle, that this sort of thing should be average.
And I can see a kind of argument for that, in the sense that in an infinity of dimensions, there's probably something somewhere even more powerful... but I don't think it'd be the kind of power of direct damage we're looking at.
I don't think it'd be handguns as powerful as nukes, as much as handguns that retroactively erase you from time, or handguns that instantly reduce you to base molecules, or handguns that short-circuit (or reprogram) your brain.
Or, more accurately, probably not handguns at all, but something else entirely, the concept of weapons as crude as guns having become obsolete.

When it comes to straight-out DAMAGE, I think that the concept of mega-damage itself would be the high-end of things; most of the weapon damages in the game are effectively unfathomable as it is.

[Killer Cyborg]

Maybe both the Arkons and the Kitanni are world conquerors because they are capable of space travel and choose to attack worlds that are less developed.

If the roman legions could have somehow traveled to a world entirely populated by cavemen, the Romans could have been "world conquerors" too.

Heck, maybe the Kitanni conquered planets that had superior technology just by overwhelming them with numbers.

The point that I'm trying to make is that being a world conqueror doesn't actually imply anything about your tech level except that it was sufficient in combination with a host of other factors to overwhelm the population of another planet.

--flatline

Agreed.
Which is why I think that it would be just as effective to have the Arkhon written with lower power levels, and more in keeping with the precedents set by earlier books.

[Giant2005]

This seems like a fair comparison.
I do disagree on the interpretation however. You have highlighted my biggest complaint on the fluff vs statistics annoyance that Rifts is plagued with.
The fluff claims the Kittani are a technologically advanced race of world conquerors but their weapons don't statistically represent that fact. As presented to us, their technology is far from superior. Looking at the stats, they seem rather inferior to weapons commonly found in North America.
That is exactly my complaint and why I object to nerfing other supposedly technologically advanced races for the sake of "balance" the Kittani gear should be vastly more powerful than it is, or their fluff should be altered or at least expanded on to justify the fact that their stuff is comparable to or inferior to those of human design.

I think that the problem is that you have vastly under-estimated the power of the weapons commonly found in North America, assuming that they represent a kind of megaversal average, rather than representing the megaversal high-end of things.
But in the early books, that wasn't the case.

You can compare the power levels and say,
"North America is superior to the Zentraedi (except for space craft and cloning), North America is almost caught up to the Kittani, North America isn't too far behind the Mechanoids (weapon-wise)... therefore, all these other powers should be vastly more powerful than they're represented"
OR
You can compare the power levels and say, "North America is superior to the Zentraedi (except for space craft and cloning), North America is almost caught up to the Kittani, North America isn't too far behind the Mechanoids... therefore, North America is pretty darned badass when it comes to high technology."

Heck, even the GODs have borrowed tech from North America: Mummu the Maker has a TW-converted SAMAS. I mean sure... he tricked it out with TW conversions, but of all the stuff in the Megaverse, he chose to trick out a suit of armor from the Coalition.

To me, I look at all this stuff, and none of it seems to show that Rifts Earth is in the middle-grounds of tech levels.
To me, it seems pretty clearly to be high-end stuff that can at least try to compete with the best that the Megaverse has to offer.

And yes... that picture changes once you bring in stuff like the Arkhon, the Megaversal Legion, and Phase World... but that's a change in the picture, not the original image of things.
And I think that it's a change brought about by people assuming that the tech shown in the early Rifts books for some reason represents the low end of the spectrum, that pistols that have as much damage output as 10-20 sticks of dynamite per shot aren't going to be on the high-end of the spectrum, or even the high middle, that this sort of thing should be average.
And I can see a kind of argument for that, in the sense that in an infinity of dimensions, there's probably something somewhere even more powerful... but I don't think it'd be the kind of power of direct damage we're looking at.
I don't think it'd be handguns as powerful as nukes, as much as handguns that retroactively erase you from time, or handguns that instantly reduce you to base molecules, or handguns that short-circuit (or reprogram) your brain.
Or, more accurately, probably not handguns at all, but something else entirely, the concept of weapons as crude as guns having become obsolete.

When it comes to straight-out DAMAGE, I think that the concept of mega-damage itself would be the high-end of things; most of the weapon damages in the game are effectively unfathomable as it is.

Fair points all around.
You and I just have different wants.
The more technologically advanced aliens is a common sci-fi trope and it is something I love. I absolutely loathe the concept of Earth's humanity having technology on par with or superior to that of all of the extremely advanced aliens - there really aren't a lot on Earth that are more technologically advanced than the humans. Arbitrarily nerfing one of the few simply because you don't want them to be more powerful is absolutely tragic in my eyes.
Whether or not you think the human's gear should be among the very top end isn't really the point, the point is that there really should be at least someone out there than has technology superior to humanity. If the consensus is to nerf everyone down to levels similar to that in North America, then there really would be no-one superior to the humans which is not only saddening for the setting, but really quite unbelievable.

[camk4evr]

It's been awhile since I've read Atlantis and the SA books but weren't the Kittani nearly by the Mechanoids (that being the reason they joined up with the Splugorth originally) while the Megaversal Legion was able to hold them off of another world? That should meant that the Legion's tech is superior to that of the Kittani and if you assume that the Arkhon's tech is roughly on par with that of the Legion then shouldn't they also be suprior, tech wise, than the Kittani (especially as it the Splugorth who decide whether or not the Kittani are allowed to advance their tech)?

[Akashic Soldier]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=138646

[Killer Cyborg]

You and I just have different wants.

Fair enough.

The more technologically advanced aliens is a common sci-fi trope and it is something I love. I absolutely loathe the concept of Earth's humanity having technology on par with or superior to that of all of the extremely advanced aliens - there really aren't a lot on Earth that are more technologically advanced than the humans. Arbitrarily nerfing one of the few simply because you don't want them to be more powerful is absolutely tragic in my eyes.
Whether or not you think the human's gear should be among the very top end isn't really the point, the point is that there really should be at least someone out there than has technology superior to humanity. If the consensus is to nerf everyone down to levels similar to that in North America, then there really would be no-one superior to the humans which is not only saddening for the setting, but really quite unbelievable.

I agree that there should be stuff that has tech that is superior to humans.
And there IS... it's just that their tech as far as damage-dealing isn't all THAT superior.

Perhaps because the "alien invaders with superior technology" angle is so common, I think it's interesting to explore the alternatives, where we're actually technologically superior in quite a few ways, and/or at least able to keep up.
That's one thing that I liked about the Stargate TV series. While the aliens that we encountered often had amazing technology that was beyond what we had... we could still kill them with bullets and plastic explosives, most of the time.

In any case, the thing about Rifts Earth is that there's a WIDE range of power levels.
If the Arkhon (or other alien invaders) happen to land in a land that isn't customized to meet up with their power levels, they WOULD be vastly superior to what they find in a lot of regions.
If the Colombians were using lasers clearly inferior to North America, and had ramjet rounds instead of rocket rounds, the Arkhon would be significantly superior in technology, even if the Arkhon were at the Kittani power level.

That's the thing about power; it's all relative.

[flatline]

It's been awhile since I've read Atlantis and the SA books but weren't the Kittani nearly by the Mechanoids (that being the reason they joined up with the Splugorth originally) while the Megaversal Legion was able to hold them off of another world? That should meant that the Legion's tech is superior to that of the Kittani and if you assume that the Arkhon's tech is roughly on par with that of the Legion then shouldn't they also be suprior, tech wise, than the Kittani (especially as it the Splugorth who decide whether or not the Kittani are allowed to advance their tech)?

Just because A defeats B doesn't mean that A has better weapons.

Maybe A had better position, or more troops, or B had explosive diarrhea or something.

--flatline

[Akashic Soldier]

It's been awhile since I've read Atlantis and the SA books but weren't the Kittani nearly by the Mechanoids (that being the reason they joined up with the Splugorth originally) while the Megaversal Legion was able to hold them off of another world? That should meant that the Legion's tech is superior to that of the Kittani and if you assume that the Arkhon's tech is roughly on par with that of the Legion then shouldn't they also be suprior, tech wise, than the Kittani (especially as it the Splugorth who decide whether or not the Kittani are allowed to advance their tech)?

I find that there are a few things that people tend to ignore.

1. The Legion had significantly more numbers than what is on Earth currently.
2. The stats do not encompass everything, different ideas/tactics come from races/peoples/strategies. Likewise, its never explicitly stated what resources they had available to them on that planet.
3. The Legion have a great deal more experience that a lot of other military organizations.
4. The Mechanoids are insane; insane enemies are typically easier to manipulate/control once you figure out their triggers.
5. They didn't win. They stalled long enough to get everyone to safety.

Just because A defeats B doesn't mean that A has better weapons.

Maybe A had better position, or more troops, or B had explosive diarrhea or something.

Exactly.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's been awhile since I've read Atlantis and the SA books but weren't the Kittani nearly by the Mechanoids (that being the reason they joined up with the Splugorth originally) while the Megaversal Legion was able to hold them off of another world? That should meant that the Legion's tech is superior to that of the Kittani and if you assume that the Arkhon's tech is roughly on par with that of the Legion then shouldn't they also be suprior, tech wise, than the Kittani (especially as it the Splugorth who decide whether or not the Kittani are allowed to advance their tech)?

Just because A defeats B doesn't mean that A has better weapons.

Maybe A had better position, or more troops, or B had explosive diarrhea or something.

--flatline

Agreed.
Also, I once discussed the Megaversal Legion's battle against the Mechanoids in this post.

Spoiler:

Here's the actual text of the encounter we're discussing:

SA 101
One of the Legion's most glorious moments occurred on Arctares' World, where the mercenaries were assigned to protect the evacuation of one billion people- just as a Mechanoid horde was descending on the plant! Despite being outnumbered a hundred to one, the Legion was able to hold off the mechanoids for 19 hours, the time needed to evacuate the refugees via dimensional gates. The Legion suffered only 7% casualties (dead) and 9% wounded, while achieving a kill ratio in excess of 30 to 1!

Which is impressive- nobody is denying that.
These are definitely good soldiers.

My main objection is to the notion that "the CS couldn't last x hours" against the Mechanoids.
My secondary objection is that surviving 19 hours is all that grand of an achievement for a large-scale mega-damage army.

SB2 31
The Mechanoids' emotional state of mind makes it impossible for most to believe that any human could be their equal. Consequently, they underestimate humanoid foes. This can lead to a chain reaction of mounting anger, frustration and foolish behavior on the part of the Mechanoids. They are easily provoked by humans who exhibit cunning, courage, strength of will, ingenuity, and arrogance. This may stimulate any number of potentially dangerous reactions from the aliens, including an unwillingness to surrender or negotiate with humanoids, taking foolish risks, rash behavior and carelessness, striking out in anger or frustration, mindless aggression, berserker rage, suicidal revenge (taking an action that may kill itself as long as the human dies too), or methodical Jack-The-Ripper type stalking, slaughter, and dissection.

To witness the devouring of a planet was both horrifying and amazing. Typically, only planets occupied by humanoids suffered this fate. First the planet would be defoliated. Second, millions of Mechanoids and their robot armies would swarm on the planet to "play with the humans. Play constituted the razing of cities, mass slaughter of the population, and terrible experiments and torture of captives. The third step was the syphoning of the oceans, followed by the removal of the atmosphere. Finally the planet would be cut into smaller sections, swallowed by the gigantic mothership and processed. Obviously, the dissection and consumption of the planet would destroy all of its inhabitants. Thus, the Mechanoids did not need to send troops to the planet's surface unless they faced substantial resistance. They enjoy the murder and mayhem caused by their hands, hence the previous reference to "play with the humans."

This is a process that takes days, if not weeks or months, to accomplish.
The Megaversal Legion's defense of the planet seems to have taken place just at the start of phase 2, the "play" phase.
This phase is not how the Mechanoids destroy planets. It is how they have fun, and soften up defenses.
The planetary defenders, be they the inhabitants (or mercenaries) of Gideon E, or Arctares' World, or Earth, aren't meant to be crushed by this kind of attack, only damaged and distracted long enough for the Mechanoids to physically carve the planet into pieces.
Which doesn't happen in 10 hours, or 19 hours, or 23 hours.
It's a lengthy process.
Claiming that somebody wouldn't last that long is absurd- the Mechanoids COULD crush pretty much any resistance in the Megaverse if they were really trying... but they don't REALLY try to. They play.

A 30+:1 kill ration IS pretty impressive as a general rule, but without knowing the parameters, we can't say exactly HOW impressive it is in this case.
How many kills was it exactly?
What kind?
Does it include Thinmen and Runts? Skimmers? Weevils? Runt Repair Bots? Or just actual Mechanoids?

Let's say that the Megaversal Legion is clever, and their lack of casualties was due more to successful hiding than to surviving combats.
Let's say they get lucky, and they take out a lone Battle Cruiser, through a missile barrage or something.
IF they did, then that's 170,000+ kills right there.

Or let's say that the Mechanoids decide to send in Thinmen and Runts first, a light force of 10 million of them.... but it turns out the Thinmen and Runts are about as good at adapting to unconventional thinking and unexpected events as Skelebots, and they suffer some devastating traps and defeats that decimate their forces.
That's a million casualties right there.

The Mechanoids are a "Kill All You Want- We'll Make More" type enemy.
Achieving a high kill ratio against somebody with their firepower and technology is certainly a feat, but it's not necessarily as impressive as some here are making it out to be.
And it's not necessarily something that the CS or other high-tech powers couldn't accomplish.

[camk4evr]

It's been awhile since I've read Atlantis and the SA books but weren't the Kittani nearly by the Mechanoids (that being the reason they joined up with the Splugorth originally) while the Megaversal Legion was able to hold them off of another world? That should meant that the Legion's tech is superior to that of the Kittani and if you assume that the Arkhon's tech is roughly on par with that of the Legion then shouldn't they also be suprior, tech wise, than the Kittani (especially as it the Splugorth who decide whether or not the Kittani are allowed to advance their tech)?

I find that there are a few things that people tend to ignore.

1. The Legion had significantly more numbers than what is on Earth currently.
2. The stats do not encompass everything, different ideas/tactics come from races/peoples/strategies. Likewise, its never explicitly stated what resources they had available to them on that planet.
3. The Legion have a great deal more experience that a lot of other military organizations.
4. The Mechanoids are insane; insane enemies are typically easier to manipulate/control once you figure out their triggers.
5. They didn't win. They stalled long enough to get everyone to safety.

Just because A defeats B doesn't mean that A has better weapons.

Maybe A had better position, or more troops, or B had explosive diarrhea or something.

Exactly.

Fair enough. And, like I said, it'd been a long time since I looked through those books (they're presently burried in the bottom of a box right now) so I'm more than a bit fuzzy on the information.

Thanks.

[Akashic Soldier]

Thanks.

No problem man. I am honestly glad I can help. I just didn't want you to get suckered into the argument of "nothing makes sense" because people were ignoring certain factors or common sense perspectives.

[Killer Cyborg]

Ignoring the weapon and armor statistics, are the Amazons the only regional power that are conceptually garbage and can't be salvaged?

For instance, if them being MDC is the biggest canon complaint, that matters little to folks like me who have done away with MDC entirely.

--flatline

Leaving power levels out of the picture, and looking at just the concept?
I'd scrap the True Inca Demigods too.
And the GB-7 Glitter Girl armor.

Other than that, I don't really have a problem with the concepts of anything else that I can think of in either of the South America books... some of the executions, and most of the power levels, sure.
But no real problem with most of the concepts.

[Akashic Soldier]

I'd scrap the True Inca Demigods.

What is it about them that you do not like? I've never heard you say a negative thing about them before.

And the GB-7 Glitter Girl armor.

I don't think you hang around enough women. This was inevitable. "I want to be empowered, objectify me with a new mecha design"

*sighs*

Even so, I think its a cool robot. Reminds me a lot of the Giantese Extreme from Guyver: Bio-Boosted Armor, when the female got and fixed the 02 Unit and became the new 02 Guyver and buffed herself up with the... ah doesn't matter.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd scrap the True Inca Demigods.

What is it about them that you do not like? I've never heard you say a negative thing about them before.

Probably because I keep forgetting that they exist!


I haven't given them a thorough examination, so I can't give a lengthy breakdown on it.
Basically, two main points come to mind:
1. They seem to be a bit too "Noble Savage" in nature. Or maybe that's the wrong term in this context. Basically, it seems like the gratuitous elevation of a specific human ethnicity to deific status.
(I know- it's not ALL Incans.)
2. One of my biggest gripes about Rifts are what I refer to as the "Mega-Cliches." Places where instead of coming up with something new or original, the authors rehash modern stereotypes of the region, convert them to MDC, and call it a day. MDC Mounties and Grizzlies in Canada. MDC Knights and King Arthur in England. MDC cowboys in the West. MDC Ninjas in Japan.
MDC Incas in South America.
(I'm not so keen on the Conquistador type armor/bots either, btw)

The future is unpredictable, especially when confronted with an apocalypse that opens doors to other dimensions.
But the one thing that I think I can confidently say about that kind of future is that it would NOT be a rehashing of cliches from the past.
The future will be NEW.
Especially when there's an entire megaverse of possibilities to draw elements from.

And the GB-7 Glitter Girl armor.

I don't think you hang around enough women. This was inevitable. "I want to be empowered, objectify me with a new mecha design"

*sighs*

lol
I don't think that YOU hang around enough women.
I've lived with my wife for about 17 years, and with a different woman for about 2 years after that... so I've been hanging around women for about 2 decades straight, up close.
And while there are some women who might go for the Glitter Girl kind of armor... they're not the kind of girls who'd actually be in the military, using that kind of equipment, and they're not going to be the majority.

Even so, I think its a cool robot. Reminds me a lot of the Giantese Extreme from Guyver: Bio-Boosted Armor, when the female got and fixed the 02 Unit and became the new 02 Guyver and buffed herself up with the... ah doesn't matter.

Well, whether I like it or not, it's there, so enjoy away!

[Nightmask]

One of my biggest gripes about Rifts are what I refer to as the "Mega-Cliches." Places where instead of coming up with something new or original, the authors rehash modern stereotypes of the region, convert them to MDC, and call it a day. MDC Mounties and Grizzlies in Canada. MDC Knights and King Arthur in England. MDC cowboys in the West. MDC Ninjas in Japan. MDC Incas in South America. (I'm not so keen on the Conquistador type armor/bots either, btw.)

Okay, by now I thought this was an established thing. I know it's never stated by way of background, but I always kind of assumed these mega-cliches were the point not laziness. The reason there are so many Captain Ersatzes and stereotypical connections is that these are--unconciously and collectively--important. Rifts earth bends toward those things that occupy imagination, and while powered armor stylized after genocial Europeans is insulting and horrifying, it's not the first time it's been done in Rifts and still carries significant historic and imaginative weight.

So while Conquistador robots are stupid their presence--at least at this point in the life cycle of Rifts--makes sense because one of the things that ties the setting together is its reliance on these mega-cliches as a way to establish that A) humans are capital-I important as their presence, myths, and history continues to resonate despite the arrival of the rifts on an otherwise ridiculously contested planet, and B) ideas--even bad ones--can't truly die.

That last part is sort of cool, and I wish it were played up more in the setting. It would make things a lot less hopeless.

But, yeah, it gets old, too. And boring. And predictable. More than once have I opened a world book and heaved a heavy sigh yet another mega-cliche.

I did have that reaction to the 'let's rehash the King Arthur legend but everything's a secret evil plot by an alien intelligence' stuff in Rifts: England. Like we didn't already have it being replicated once already in Mutants In Avalon (but at least THEY got the 'real' Merlin).

[42dragon]

I have always seen some glaring issues with both the SA books. Now Arkons and Megaversal Legion not so much. They were balanced with limited numbers, and supplies.
Colombia does seem overpowered for the story being told of the region.
Amazons being MDC humans is a big stretch.
The Incan's I don't understand why the true gods would be directly involved all the time, but since they are the magic tech and number of demi-gods is sort of explainable if you don't look too closely.

My biggest issue is the mutant animals. Even if in South America they were well beyond North America genetics wise, what they have created and duplicated to rediculous numbers seems well beyond even Gene-Splicer abilities. There is no way you can convince me anything or any one from earth (probably anywhere) is beyond them when it comes to genetic manipulation. All of the mutant animals have most if not all stats better than humans or other SDC and many MDC creatures. Nearly all have major or above psionics, plus amazing psychic force fields. And to top it all off they each have some sort of special ability/s that rival that of Heroes Unlimited Super Powers.

Clearly written for cool factor over substance.

[Nightmask]

I have always seen some glaring issues with both the SA books. Now Arkons and Megaversal Legion not so much. They were balanced with limited numbers, and supplies.
Colombia does seem overpowered for the story being told of the region.
Amazons being MDC humans is a big stretch.
The Incan's I don't understand why the true gods would be directly involved all the time, but since they are the magic tech and number of demi-gods is sort of explainable if you don't look too closely.

My biggest issue is the mutant animals. Even if in South America they were well beyond North America genetics wise, what they have created and duplicated to rediculous numbers seems well beyond even Gene-Splicer abilities. There is no way you can convince me anything or any one from earth (probably anywhere) is beyond them when it comes to genetic manipulation. All of the mutant animals have most if not all stats better than humans or other SDC and many MDC creatures. Nearly all have major or above psionics, plus amazing psychic force fields. And to top it all off they each have some sort of special ability/s that rival that of Heroes Unlimited Super Powers.

Clearly written for cool factor over substance.

The mutant animals of South America 2 aren't beyond Gene-Splicer abilities, while we have some minor examples given in their entry they can do anything and everything you've ever seen any inferior species do with regards to genetic engineering. We just aren't shown similar from Gene Splicers because they're meant to be a GM antagonist and never as PC so no need to provide

Yes they tend to have better than human stats, so do all of Lone Star's creations. Same with psionics. While they're more potent on the psionics end that WAS the focus for South America, their idea of weapons research was genetics instead of technology. Not surprising that it would result in even more powerful creatures in such a PPE-rich environment as Rifts Earth. It just gives South America a different flavor being a place where genetics was the focus instead of technology.

[Eashamahel]

I had never been exposed to South America's GB-7 being a type of 'Glitter Girl' armour, is this mentioned in it's description and it's just been a long time since I read it?

[Killer Cyborg]

The book talks about how it allows women to have form-fitting power armor that shows off their femininity. (Paraphrased)

And, of course, there's the picture.
And the hip-guns.

But yeah, technically anybody can use it.

[Forar]

A cursory Googling indicates that the "Glittergirl" was in Free Quebec (which I did remember), apparently SA has the "Glitter Boy 7", which is often constructed for female pilots.

... so I guess there are two of them?

[Killer Cyborg]

Yup.
The GB 7 was first, but not as officially for women.

[Eashamahel]

I can't imagine anything that I like less than the Glitter-Girl, I remember the GB-7 from playing long ago, a few of the guys in our group loved it, just didn't remember the history.

Really, the only GB variants I ever thought were well done were the ones in Japan, true to the original style, different roles, different weapons, would work great as a team.

[Killer Cyborg]

I liked the variants in Mutants In Orbit.

[Killer Cyborg]

Out of curiosity, Killer Cyborg, which Rifts do you believe are well written?

Which Rifts books?

Vampire Kingdoms.
Shemarrian Nation.
Xiticix Invasion.
Sourcebook 1.
Sourcebook 2.
Mercenaries. (though I dislike a lot of the power creep)
Dinosaur Swamps.

Those are the ones that spring to mind, anyway.

And there's a LOT of good stuff in other books, like the South America books.
There's just a lot of bad stuff in there too.

[Forar]

It's funny, I love D&D 4E specifically because it's the best balanced (at least Heroic and Paragon tiers) RPG I've played.

Loved 3E as a step up from the wildly 'balance by the seat of your pants' that was our half decade in Rifts, but when I sunk my teeth into 4E I knew I'd finally tasted proper class balance. It was pretty sweet.

But, not for everyone, evidently.

Though I do disagree with the assertion that 4E is any less about role play than any other edition of D&D. But that's definitely drifting away from the topic at hand.

[Eashamahel]

Which Rifts books?

Vampire Kingdoms.
Shemarrian Nation.
Xiticix Invasion.
Sourcebook 1.
Sourcebook 2.
Mercenaries. (though I dislike a lot of the power creep)
Dinosaur Swamps.

I have seen (I think) you comment favourably on Dinosaur Swamps several times now, to the point that I think I am going to go and get it. I have not been a fan of a lot of the later Rifts stuff, but if it is on the same level as the first Sourcebook, then I am a go for it.

What about Xiticix Invasion did you like so much? I was a huge fan of it when it came out, just because of all of the technical detail and actual explanation of the Xiticix, even stuff you would never find out in game that would help the GM run them correctly (like their homeworld info). I didn't like the sudden huge jump in HtH damage, but that was just bringing them in line with the rest of the 'new' game (the days of 4D6 MD flaming swords being the top tier were long over by then), but I suppose the number one reason I don't think of it when I think of a good book is because it didn't seem to actually exist the second it hit the shelves, all of the things it said were going to happen didn't, which isn't really the fault of THAT book. So many people commenting on the old Rifter article about the bug-men makes me want to try and track it down.

I did like Shamarrian Nation. Great world add on with the Shemarrian address discs being sent out, good expansion of the 'society' for believeability, nice explanation of how it all works, and more than anything, it was a book that was just what it was. It didn't need to be 200+ pages of random other stuff thrown in, it was a book about the Shemarrian nation, and that's all.

And there's a LOT of good stuff in other books, like the South America books.
There's just a lot of bad stuff in there too.

I think this is where I got my take some and leave some attitude about Rifts. From my perspective, most books have a few neat things, some good descriptions, and lots of stuff that doesn't fit to what I see Rifts being, as well as a few (of what I think should be monumentally important) things under-described, but from someone else' view, that book is the complete opposite. Then these 'medium' books let us run things both ways. There are of course a lot of problems that come from this, though, like the third person who's view is that not independent of that book, but defined by it, who then doesn't like either my or the other guys view of things (though we could both probably exist happily in 'his' world').

I think that's actually one of the reasons I would have preferred the World Books not all become mega-books and remained SB:1 sized. There would have been (for me) less difficulty choosing the books that went with my views, and the books I 'kind of' liked would have been split into books i did like, and books I didn't like. And, maybe, they wouldn't have taken so long to get out every single book, but that's another gripe.

[Killer Cyborg]

Dino Swamps has a few issues, but of the ones that spring to mind, only one was the author's fault. I truly hate the uber-MDC of dinos these days, and Dino Swamps sticks to that kind of over-powered vision of dinosaurs... but since that was already the standard when the book was written, I can't fault the author.
The only other issue that I have with the book was simply that the SteelTree items ability to inflict mega-damage isn't addressed. It's not stated to be magic, but it's not stated to NOT be magic. It just inflicts MD for no apparent reason. I don't really like that.
It's an issue that's shared with the Xiticix melee weapons, incidently. They're another case of "inflicts MD for no apparent reason."
But in neither book is it such a black mark that the rest of the stuff is ruined or overshadowed.
One of the best things about Dinosaur Swamps is that it doesn't drastically raise the populations, and it deals with low-tech societies interacting with MDC creatures, including hunting those creatures down.
Also, I love the concept of the "Natural Strike Bonus," as used with the Viggio Arms rifle. (If you haven't read the book yet, you probably won't know what I'm talking about yet, of course)

I like Xiticix Kingdoms for the same reason that I like Shemarrian Nation, although XI has more flaws (like the inexplicable MD capabilities of the melee weapons). Each book covers what it needs to, and doesn't bring in gratuitous stuff.
I would have preferred that the Xiticix power level remained more like it was in the RMB, but the years of power creep justify their power boost pretty well. Although I'd rather that they adjusted a bunch of other stuff DOWN... but, as with the dinos, what's done is done and I'm not going to blame the authors for playing stuff as it lies.
I don't hold a grudge against XI for being ignored; I hold a grudge against the books that ignored it.

[Eashamahel]

Dino Swamps has a few issues, but of the ones that spring to mind, only one was the author's fault. I truly hate the uber-MDC of dinos these days, and Dino Swamps sticks to that kind of over-powered vision of dinosaurs... but since that was already the standard when the book was written, I can't fault the author.

I am right with you on this, I was always a fan of Dino's exactly the way they were in the back of the old Rifts rulebook, having around 3D6 MD for human to horse sized dinos, being significantly lower than actual supernatural creatures, but much tougher than comparably sized mammals, a good example of natural MDC (and where I would have been happier with 'natural' MDC D-Bees as well, around Juicer level toughness), but I can deal with this if the book is good otherwise.

The only other issue that I have with the book was simply that the SteelTree items ability to inflict mega-damage isn't addressed. It's not stated to be magic, but it's not stated to NOT be magic. It just inflicts MD for no apparent reason. I don't really like that.
It's an issue that's shared with the Xiticix melee weapons, incidently. They're another case of "inflicts MD for no apparent reason."

Yeah, I am pretty sure the Xiticix weapons did MD because they were wielded by Supernatural Strength creatures, as they were MDC constructs. At best, that really only would seem to make sense for them to do the creatures normal punch damage, but add bonuses for their WP types, (which I think is what they did in the old Rifts rulebook, when Xiticix could inflict MD with power punches only, before they punched with the equivalent force of LAW rockets) and the rest of the book seems to imply that Psi-Stalkers use Xiticix Resin weapons against them, presumably inflicting MD for no reason... Always good to see that trend continuing.


But in neither book is it such a black mark that the rest of the stuff is ruined or overshadowed.
One of the best things about Dinosaur Swamps is that it doesn't drastically raise the populations, and it deals with low-tech societies interacting with MDC creatures, including hunting those creatures down.
Also, I love the concept of the "Natural Strike Bonus," as used with the Viggio Arms rifle. (If you haven't read the book yet, you probably won't know what I'm talking about yet, of course)

I like Xiticix Kingdoms for the same reason that I like Shemarrian Nation, although XI has more flaws (like the inexplicable MD capabilities of the melee weapons). Each book covers what it needs to, and doesn't bring in gratuitous stuff.
I would have preferred that the Xiticix power level remained more like it was in the RMB, but the years of power creep justify their power boost pretty well. Although I'd rather that they adjusted a bunch of other stuff DOWN... but, as with the dinos, what's done is done and I'm not going to blame the authors for playing stuff as it lies.
I don't hold a grudge against XI for being ignored; I hold a grudge against the books that ignored it.

I literally just said exactly the same thing to my wife, that Shemarrian Nation and XI were perfect because they dealt with exactly what they were about, and weren't filled with a hundred other things. That way if you wanted to know about either, there was a book specifically about it, and if you weren't interested, you didn't need to have/read them, a level of focus that Rifts books generally don't have/lost very quickly.

As for the rest, that is exactly how I feel about the Xiticix, dinosaurs, and the fact that Xiticix Invasion seems to have not happened and that damaging the setting a lot. Wow, I'm giving you all the points, you win.

[Eashamahel]

I think what you are noticing is the eventual slide of Rifts to EVERYTHING needing to deal and be MDC. Everything. Random other creatures that are otherwise human-level are MDC beings, capable of doing EASY mega-damage with their attacks. Naturally occuring MDC materials that are easy to acquire, a variety of weapons that deal MD with no explanation as to why, ect.

Starting at the old Rifts rulebook level, you could be a D-Bee lizard person and you got something like 30 extra SDC. Eventually, you are a Grackletooth.

Xiticix, which are phenomenally strong and made of a thick, heavy MDC material can power punch to inflict MINOR amounts of MDC. Eventually, not only do they do MD, but weapons which do SDC do MORE MDC when they use them, and ANYONE who is even REMOTELY stronger than normal can inflict MD (with the augmented humans strength chart).

That chart actually is a great example of the scaling problem that eventually happens in Rifts. Although I don't have it infront of me, if my memory serves me a Juicer with a PS in the mid 20's can inflict 1D4 MD on a power punch (roughly equal to what the Xiticix USED to be able to do). That's 1D400 SDC. On a power punch. The heck? I mean, if a NORMAL punch is a D4 SDC, and that juicer adds, say, +10 for his PS bonus, and +4 for his high level HtH training, he is doing ALMOST 20 SDC. If he rolls a PERFECT (critical) hit, he is doing 40, or somewhere less than 50. That's it, just 50 SDC, assuming some generous numbers and PERFECT conditions, but if he tries a LITTLE bit harder, instead of doing 2x damage (ie, 'can inflict 1 point of MD on a power punch', which would be reasonable for a VERY strong Juicer with protective gauntlets), he does HUNDREDS of SDC...

Eventually, everything in Rifts needs to be MDC. Psi-Stalkers are SDC because they have been around for so long, but I am fairly certain they CAN become MDC creatures in the R:UE rulebook. Hilariously, Simvan probably stand out more than most D-Bees because they are NOT MDC creatures, and had they been made in the current Rifts setting, I have no doubt they would be.