LLW and Scrolls ?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I've always found the raging insistence that mid-to-high level and honestly high-level spells must be some super-rare treat doled out like the rarest ambrosia to be almost laughably unplayable and inconsistent with everything OTHER than the RMB/RUE.

The power of the classes in question in large part relies on an assumed level of access to spells. Why fill up entire books with spells that 90% of players will never use? What is even the point of that? If you're trying to sell the "5th level LLW's are low-level noob idiots who wont have access to spells above like 7th level" - i'm not buying. I'm not even interested in hearing the stupidly flawed sales pitch.

With the tiny amounts of EXP gained for doing even big things, 5th level is actually pretty big. You'd having to be gaming weekly to see that in even a medium amount of time. Expecting players to play 2-3-4 years (and lets be honest, how many campaigns last that long?) to even access the spells that make the classes remotely on-par with others is absurd on its face.

Despite the stupidly, badly-written insistence in RMB/RUE that such spells are vanishingly rare, pretty much every other single book with magic in it proves that to be a silly lie. These spells are so damnably rare that there are places that MANUFACTURE ITEMS IN AN ASSEMBLY LINE FASHION WITH THEM - all over North America, producing tens of thousands of items of such every freaking year.

Hell, Tolkeen alone had tens of thousands of mages armed with at LEAST mid-high level spells during the war - and no one is going to sell me on some fantasy that all those guys were 'high level'.

RUE/RMB's insistence that such spells are vanishingly rare is just one more of the huge pile of flagrant inconsistencies in Rifts. Mid-High (up to 9th/10th) are PROVABLY not that rare, and even 11th/12th level spells are in the hands of THOUSANDS of individuals, many of whom are in the business of making money and would most assuredly sell the spell knowledge for the right amount of money.

If the group is making enough money that they can afford to go to the Tech-Characters-Can-Upgrade-At-Will-Shop-On-Every-Corner and buy all the tech characters new guns, e-clips, grenades, armor, and perhaps vehicles/power armor, the group can certainly afford to stop at any of the dozens of places that such high level spells are used by dozens or hundreds of people daily in the manufacture of the inumerable technowizard and other magical items and drop a few hundred thousand or a few mill learning some good magic.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

IPlus, for the record, I have never seen a practitioner of magic run out of P.P.E. in any of the Game I've run, and I've tried to run them out using minion-style NPCs on several occasions. The ONLY time I have seen people even get low, is when they are casting massively powerful spells; such as dimensional portal (500 P.P.E.).

Considering the high costs of a lot of the decent spells (40-60 PPE each) i find that... astonishingly hard to believe. Just a few fights in a row casting an Armor spell or two and Invulnerable to Energy and BAM, you're done for the day.

I also dont understand the generally accepted argument that "well the party will always just let them drain PPE from them" - that stinks to me of bad RP/metagaming. Unless that guy is like.. my bro from childhood, he's not touching my mojo without getting shot in the face for it. Even then, he's going to get ... 40-60 PPE from an entire party of non-magic users?

[The Beast]

maybe 1-4
Probibly healing and other after battle useful spells.

Literacy is a Technical Skill
Ley Line Walker/Rifter get technical ( any @+5% )
take Literacy
problem solved

RUE moved that skill to the Communications category.

[wyrmraker]

As an aside, I have always disagreed with the sheer lack of literacy in mage circles. In my view, every studious mage class (not the mystic, who is purely self-taught, so to speak), every mage should be able to read in order to study magical tomes and do research.

However, if you've played that LLW through 5 levels, it really comes down to the GM as to how many you might have. If the game is starting off at level 5, then that means that the characters have considerable backstory, and I would, as a GM, permit between 4 and 6 scrolls of levels 6-11. And that's not counting the spells acquired normally in those 5 levels.

[Shark_Force]

once again, scrolls are not what you use to learn spells. you *can* do it that way, but it's horribly inefficient because you're probably going to have to use up half a dozen scrolls of each spell to pull it off. in rifts, if you want to learn spells, you do it by getting someone who knows the spell to teach it to you, which actually has a good chance of success...

[Killer Cyborg]

once again, scrolls are not what you use to learn spells. you *can* do it that way, but it's horribly inefficient because you're probably going to have to use up half a dozen scrolls of each spell to pull it off. in rifts, if you want to learn spells, you do it by getting someone who knows the spell to teach it to you, which actually has a good chance of success...

Yup.

The problem, I think, is that we live in a literate society where reading is fundamental to gaining knowledge.
This causes some people a tremendous amount of problems when it comes to understanding how a non-literate society could function effectively, and/or how they could transmit knowledge.
But most forms of "magic" in the the history of the real world were practiced by societies where literacy was mostly unknown or unused.
Witch-doctors, voodoo priests/priestesses, druids, and most of our other most famous "magic users" didn't hand down their knowledge via the written word, they did it by old-school apprenticeship and personal teaching/training.

[Shark_Force]

once again, scrolls are not what you use to learn spells. you *can* do it that way, but it's horribly inefficient because you're probably going to have to use up half a dozen scrolls of each spell to pull it off. in rifts, if you want to learn spells, you do it by getting someone who knows the spell to teach it to you, which actually has a good chance of success...

Yup.

The problem, I think, is that we live in a literate society where reading is fundamental to gaining knowledge.
This causes some people a tremendous amount of problems when it comes to understanding how a non-literate society could function effectively, and/or how they could transmit knowledge.
But most forms of "magic" in the the history of the real world were practiced by societies where literacy was mostly unknown or unused.
Witch-doctors, voodoo priests/priestesses, druids, and most of our other most famous "magic users" didn't hand down their knowledge via the written word, they did it by old-school apprenticeship and personal teaching/training.

oh, i was more saying that in reference to a higher level LLW starting off with scrolls.

but yes, i would expect there are plenty of spellcasters that don't read, particularly the ones where, as i said, formal learning is not a part of what they do. mystics (which probably cover a rather large variety of traditional magic-users tbh), warlocks, witches, african priests and rain men, jungle elf biomancers, the rifts england druids, and others like them probably have little to no emphasis on reading. techno-wizards, priests of light (gotta be able to read your god's sacred text in many cases), and probably shifters and ley line walkers i would expect are more likely to be able to read.

[flatline]

Is there a price list anywhere for scrolls?

--flatline

[Nekira Sudacne]

IPlus, for the record, I have never seen a practitioner of magic run out of P.P.E. in any of the Game I've run, and I've tried to run them out using minion-style NPCs on several occasions. The ONLY time I have seen people even get low, is when they are casting massively powerful spells; such as dimensional portal (500 P.P.E.).

Considering the high costs of a lot of the decent spells (40-60 PPE each) i find that... astonishingly hard to believe. Just a few fights in a row casting an Armor spell or two and Invulnerable to Energy and BAM, you're done for the day.

I've been playing rifts for 8 years, and in that time I can count on one hand the number of times i've run out of PPE in a fight. mostly sinse circumstances with more than one fight a day are were vanishingly rare.

of course, i've always been a big perponent of "Sorry, you lose" spells. spamming magic net and nothing else is astonishingly effective on dealing with mooks. a TW magic net gun is even better, as you get a strike roll instead of the flat 14 dodge.

[kaid]

This spell iis awesome for making money and helping out people, however it's not of much use to a low level mage. It's just too hard to get ahold of high level magic for it to be worth it to them. Even magic "guild" very very rarely teach magic above seventh level. I have played alot of mages, and my favorite is my shifter, but it's been my opinion for a long time that you should never have a spell thats more than twice your level. With the exception of specialty spells of course.

That being said however. In the hands of someone like a ley line rifter, or shifter who gets to pick high level spells it could be awesome for what you intend. But like it was stated before, most LLW's are illiterate.

At low level especially with the RUE changes it is not as necessary as it once was. Prior to the 1 melee action spell casting of low level spells having a scroll or an talisman of armor of ithan was almost a necessity for when you really needed to activate it in a hurry. Now things like talisman in scrolls are mostly nice for speeding up the casting time of higher level stuff. Due to the PPE costs involved even with things like energy sphere it is unlikely a GM needs to deal with a player whipping out hordes of these things during active game play.

Even during down time creation of scrolls is not a huge deal because it starts coming down to the whole how many can you carry effectively pretty fast. Sure you may have a backpack full of them or a trunk full of them in your car but it is unlikely to effect a combat situation because other than 3 or 4 easy to reach ones you would waste more time digging the darn things out than just casting the spell.

But this whole conversation runs around one huge problem I have with classes like ley line walkers and why I almost like warlocks/mystics a bit better. The whole can learn spells at any time by purchasing them/learning them from others feature of the class. I have had so many gms that would not bat an eye at letting some tech based character get the gun he is looking for or power armor but god help a LLW who wants to learn a level 10+ spell. They are lucky if they can get it as the culmination of a huge story line and then with only begging and pleading.

This is one of the reasons I tend to almost prefer the characters who get set spells per level because I have never had a GM balk at this kind of spell acquisition but heaven help your techno wizard cause the only way he is going to get new spells is if he slays the kraken with a toothpick blind folded.

[flatline]

By level three, my temporal wizards typically had hundreds of scrolls stashed away in dimensional pickets. And this was before RUE upgraded the PPE available from ley lines (we did most of our scroll and talisman creation by absorbing PPE from people in heavily populated areas).

Now that RUE has beefed up ley lines, it is trivial for anyone who can cast Create Magic Scroll to mass produce scrolls.

--flatline

[Dunia]

It also breaks down to usability and PPE cost just because you can get a spell doesn't always mean you should.

So then you would punish the LLW PC who wanted to start making Scrolls .. because as you put it .. just because you can get a spell doesn't always mean you should ?

In essence your trying to handicap the LLW ?

I don't think limiting certain spells like create scroll is to punish or handicapping the LLW. In my first campaign, I hade a player playing a LLW that got to level 8 after some years of playing, and she never learned that spell or got any scrolls made for her, you want to know why?

Because most people in Rifts Earth are illiterate. Even if they know the spell by some fluke chance, the amount of literate LLWs and other mages are slim to none in most areas.

I usually added a scroll or three as a bonus to treasures from powerful enemies and it made the player of said LLW exclaim "Oh! another scroll! Wow!" and it made that players day each time they found one.

I do not consider it handicapping the LLW, neither did my players. They loved when they could find such things.

[Nightmask]

It also breaks down to usability and PPE cost just because you can get a spell doesn't always mean you should.

So then you would punish the LLW PC who wanted to start making Scrolls .. because as you put it .. just because you can get a spell doesn't always mean you should ?

In essence your trying to handicap the LLW ?

I don't think limiting certain spells like create scroll is to punish or handicapping the LLW. In my first campaign, I hade a player playing a LLW that got to level 8 after some years of playing, and she never learned that spell or got any scrolls made for her, you want to know why?

Because most people in Rifts Earth are illiterate. Even if they know the spell by some fluke chance, the amount of literate LLWs and other mages are slim to none in most areas.

I usually added a scroll or three as a bonus to treasures from powerful enemies and it made the player of said LLW exclaim "Oh! another scroll! Wow!" and it made that players day each time they found one.

I do not consider it handicapping the LLW, neither did my players. They loved when they could find such things.

Except the idea of most LLW being illiterate strains credulity, as does the idea of nearly everyone being illiterate in general. To a degree it does seem like an effort to hinder LLW and spellcasters in general by restricting them to only what spells they can cast and what PPE they have available instead of being able to prepare one-shot magic items (i.e. scrolls) to bolster their abilities and those of their teammates. They just about have to resort to non-magical means for many things because many common aspects of magic users in fiction and other games are absent particularly the ability to craft in simple magic items.

[warrenthewanderer]

I agree, the idea that most PoMs are illiterate is just plain stupid. PoMs are men of knowledge and the LLM in RUE gets a bonus of 1D4 to IQ. How can they be illiterate?

In regards to the original topic the average LLW of any level would have 3-4 magic scroll(May have more but most don't for a very good reason I'll explain later) at any give time. These scrolls would only be used in an emergency (like low PPE levels, or if the mage himself is knocked out his comrades can use them) and they will be a spells that will help him escape. The mage could (if he knows the spell) make more and by using the UNLIMITED AMOUNTS OF PPE AT LAY LINES/NEXUS POINTS an unlimited number of scrolls as a matter of fact but most don't for some very good reasons 1. The mage wouldn't want his spells being learned by another mage by using said scrolls 2. Lot of scrolls will make the mage a target for theft. 3. The local guild wount be very happy that the mage has used their lay line to make a tone of scrolls that he may sell in their territory( as a GM I wouldn't really care about this last one cause it makes excellent adventure fodder I.e. gulf learn of mage, go to kick mage butt, mage kicks guild butt, guild impressed, gulf heir mage, adventure time).

But all this is only my personal opinion.

[rbm10101]

By level three, my temporal wizards typically had hundreds of scrolls stashed away in dimensional pickets. And this was before RUE upgraded the PPE available from ley lines (we did most of our scroll and talisman creation by absorbing PPE from people in heavily populated areas).

Now that RUE has beefed up ley lines, it is trivial for anyone who can cast Create Magic Scroll to mass produce scrolls.

--flatline

Most players are or are not literate by choice... They choose to take literacy or not to take literacy, or the choice is made for them by there Class OCC skill list. This 70/30 % stuff is meaningless. If the Gm wants to limit the LLW for example to chain casting 1st -4th level spells so be it. I sincerely hope that same GM limits the tech characters to the same level of Power Armor, Armor, weapons, and other tech. Otherwise it is a bias on the part of the GM. Would be like asking a juicer not to use his Auto-Dodge. What is the point of having a class feature if you can not use it?

[Shark_Force]

"most people are illiterate" is not really very meaningful.

for example, most people cannot cast spells. but obviously, that ability is quite common for ley line walkers.

most people cannot fix robot vehicles. but that ability is quite common for operators.

most people cannot dodge a bullet they didn't even know was coming. but that ability is quite common for juicers.

most people do not have access to super psionic powers. but that ability is quite common for mind melters.

now, obviously, these are all very much core abilities of the OCCs in question, certainly more so than the ability to read for any of them (although naturally, if we were to throw out a comparison for rogue scholars, then we could use the literacy thing as an example). but the main point is that just because something is uncommon amongst the general population, doesn't mean it is uncommon within a specific sub-group.

most ley line walkers can be literate without making a serious dent in the number of literate people overall. now, are most ley line walkers literate? we don't know. but i would guess that literacy is much more common for ley line walkers than it is among, say, coalition states factory workers. and quite probably more common than people in general on rifts earth, simply because their background is more likely to expose them to it (study, research, and record-keeping are more likely to be part of their training).

and, of course, for those that aren't inherently literate, there is a spell they can use to become temporarily literate.

[kaid]

Possibly, but unlikely in most situations.
Because Create Magic Scroll is still a 11th spell, and mages hoard their secrets.

At any rate, none of that adds up to a 5th level mage knowing that spell on average.

Sadly after reading up on alotta the magic stuff I have to ceed this point.

It IS possible for a 5th lvl LLW to have spells far exceeding his own current lvl, and even be able to cast them.

But in all level playing fields, that is by far and away not going to be close to the norm.

One problems rifts casters suffer from is people being to used to how other games do spells per level. In rifts one of the few spell casters that follows the more traditional RPG template for spell gain is warlocks.

If you look at things like ley line rifters, shifters heck even techno wizards and this is not even getting into OCC from federation of magic it is not rare at all to start at level 1 with some very high level spells. The level of the spell is not quite handled the same way it is in most other games it is more of an indication of how long it takes to cast and how much PPE it costs than anything.

So while a level 1 ley line walker could in theory be taught any general invocation spell of any level it does not cause much problems power level wise because they lack the PPE to cast them much. During any adventuring day unless they are huddling on a ley line casting a level 10+ spell is usually a one spell and they are done for the day type situation.

Now I don't advocate giving new spells willy nilly to ley line walkers I also try to treat them like tech items for tech users. If somebody is stomping around in power armor like a glitterboy or IS A DRAGON a ley line walker learning how to make scrolls does not overly concern me.

[kaid]

I agree, the idea that most PoMs are illiterate is just plain stupid. PoMs are men of knowledge and the LLM in RUE gets a bonus of 1D4 to IQ. How can they be illiterate?

In regards to the original topic the average LLW of any level would have 3-4 magic scroll(May have more but most don't for a very good reason I'll explain later) at any give time. These scrolls would only be used in an emergency (like low PPE levels, or if the mage himself is knocked out his comrades can use them) and they will be a spells that will help him escape. The mage could (if he knows the spell) make more and by using the UNLIMITED AMOUNTS OF PPE AT LAY LINES/NEXUS POINTS an unlimited number of scrolls as a matter of fact but most don't for some very good reasons 1. The mage wouldn't want his spells being learned by another mage by using said scrolls 2. Lot of scrolls will make the mage a target for theft. 3. The local guild wount be very happy that the mage has used their lay line to make a tone of scrolls that he may sell in their territory( as a GM I wouldn't really care about this last one cause it makes excellent adventure fodder I.e. gulf learn of mage, go to kick mage butt, mage kicks guild butt, guild impressed, gulf heir mage, adventure time).

But all this is only my personal opinion.

I just don't see any huge balance issue with things like create scroll as long as the GM's are being somewhat sane. Sure a player could make unlimited amounts of scrolls if allowed to sit unmolested on a leyline/nexus for an unlimited period of time.

Now the reason this usually won't cause problems is ley lines and nexus are big attractions to any force of magic and the chance you are going to sit unmolested on a nexus while you write out piles of scrolls is highly unlikely for any period of time. Ley lines are basically roads/highways for supernatural forces and unless you are in some city like arzno or merc town you are not going to remain undisturbed. If you are in a place like merc town or arzno chances are you are going to have to join or be a member of the local guild as they are going to be pretty protective of their resources especially from somebody cranking out scrolls that may undercut their market.

[warrenthewanderer]

I agree, the idea that most PoMs are illiterate is just plain stupid. PoMs are men of knowledge and the LLM in RUE gets a bonus of 1D4 to IQ. How can they be illiterate?

In regards to the original topic the average LLW of any level would have 3-4 magic scroll(May have more but most don't for a very good reason I'll explain later) at any give time. These scrolls would only be used in an emergency (like low PPE levels, or if the mage himself is knocked out his comrades can use them) and they will be a spells that will help him escape. The mage could (if he knows the spell) make more and by using the UNLIMITED AMOUNTS OF PPE AT LAY LINES/NEXUS POINTS an unlimited number of scrolls as a matter of fact but most don't for some very good reasons 1. The mage wouldn't want his spells being learned by another mage by using said scrolls 2. Lot of scrolls will make the mage a target for theft. 3. The local guild wount be very happy that the mage has used their lay line to make a tone of scrolls that he may sell in their territory( as a GM I wouldn't really care about this last one cause it makes excellent adventure fodder I.e. gulf learn of mage, go to kick mage butt, mage kicks guild butt, guild impressed, gulf heir mage, adventure time).

But all this is only my personal opinion.

I just don't see any huge balance issue with things like create scroll as long as the GM's are being somewhat sane. Sure a player could make unlimited amounts of scrolls if allowed to sit unmolested on a leyline/nexus for an unlimited period of time.

Now the reason this usually won't cause problems is ley lines and nexus are big attractions to any force of magic and the chance you are going to sit unmolested on a nexus while you write out piles of scrolls is highly unlikely for any period of time. Ley lines are basically roads/highways for supernatural forces and unless you are in some city like arzno or merc town you are not going to remain undisturbed. If you are in a place like merc town or arzno chances are you are going to have to join or be a member of the local guild as they are going to be pretty protective of their resources especially from somebody cranking out scrolls that may undercut their market.

So…that means your agreeing with me? That's basically what I said.

[flatline]

So while a level 1 ley line walker could in theory be taught any general invocation spell of any level it does not cause much problems power level wise because they lack the PPE to cast them much. During any adventuring day unless they are huddling on a ley line casting a level 10+ spell is usually a one spell and they are done for the day type situation.

Much of playing a mage successfully involves strategies for preparing for the future when you have (or can create) surplus PPE now. Most of those strategies revolve around charging technowizard devices, summoning spells, Talisman, and Create Magic Scrolls. Also, for Temporal practitioners, creating Dimensional Pockets and Dimensional Envelopes.

It probably comes as no surprise, but my temporal wizards always start with Talisman as one of their starting spells and typically choose Create Magic Scroll when leveling up to levels 2 or 3 if they haven't already managed to purchase the spell from someone.

I'm about to go on vacation, but when I get back, I'll start a thread that delves into this line of thinking in some detail.

--flatline

[kaid]

I agree, the idea that most PoMs are illiterate is just plain stupid. PoMs are men of knowledge and the LLM in RUE gets a bonus of 1D4 to IQ. How can they be illiterate?

In regards to the original topic the average LLW of any level would have 3-4 magic scroll(May have more but most don't for a very good reason I'll explain later) at any give time. These scrolls would only be used in an emergency (like low PPE levels, or if the mage himself is knocked out his comrades can use them) and they will be a spells that will help him escape. The mage could (if he knows the spell) make more and by using the UNLIMITED AMOUNTS OF PPE AT LAY LINES/NEXUS POINTS an unlimited number of scrolls as a matter of fact but most don't for some very good reasons 1. The mage wouldn't want his spells being learned by another mage by using said scrolls 2. Lot of scrolls will make the mage a target for theft. 3. The local guild wount be very happy that the mage has used their lay line to make a tone of scrolls that he may sell in their territory( as a GM I wouldn't really care about this last one cause it makes excellent adventure fodder I.e. gulf learn of mage, go to kick mage butt, mage kicks guild butt, guild impressed, gulf heir mage, adventure time).

But all this is only my personal opinion.

I just don't see any huge balance issue with things like create scroll as long as the GM's are being somewhat sane. Sure a player could make unlimited amounts of scrolls if allowed to sit unmolested on a leyline/nexus for an unlimited period of time.

Now the reason this usually won't cause problems is ley lines and nexus are big attractions to any force of magic and the chance you are going to sit unmolested on a nexus while you write out piles of scrolls is highly unlikely for any period of time. Ley lines are basically roads/highways for supernatural forces and unless you are in some city like arzno or merc town you are not going to remain undisturbed. If you are in a place like merc town or arzno chances are you are going to have to join or be a member of the local guild as they are going to be pretty protective of their resources especially from somebody cranking out scrolls that may undercut their market.

So…that means your agreeing with me? That's basically what I said.

Yup people tend to be really twitchy about letting mages be mages in rifts and I never understood it. Heck people expect techno wizards to crank out techno wizard geegaws for everybody but god forbid you make a scroll or an amulet that stores a spell.

[wyrmraker]

In Palladium Fantasy I can see wizards being incredibly stingy and selfish about their spell knowledge. In Rifts, however, survival is supposed to take precedent above most other consideration. And witholding a spell from a mage, depending on the power of it, would be unreasonable. I like the price list in RUE, as it goves an excellent baseline cost for purchasing spells.

As for the Tolkeen conflict, pretty much any magic-using sort who survived the conflict would have quite a few more spells in their arsenal. After all, in the Tolkeen conflict wouldn't spells be taught to magic-using troops as the equivalent of standard issue gear? It stands to reason that they would, really.

For the average spell-slinger, travelling to Stormspire to learn sorcery should mostly be a straight cash exchange for any spell under 10th level. Above tenth should take some extra doing to acquire. But my LLW shouldn't have to go on an epic quest to retrieve the Lost Amulet of Cthon the World Slayer just to get any spell of 10th level or less. Unlike in Palladium Fantasy, where such a quest would be worth a single 7th level spell, tops.

[kaid]

Given that there are places like stormspire, tolkeen, arzno have techno wizard stuff sold retail I just don't see why magic scrolls would be any more rare than that. Due to their consumability it also keeps the amount of them floating around under control.

Local guilds may control what they allow their members put onto scrolls for sale such as not wanting yahoos running around with scrolls of sphere of annihiliation but otherwise if a place openly has techno wizard items for sale I see no reason you should not see shops selling scrolls/talismans/amulets with reasonable availability.

[flatline]

Given that there are places like stormspire, tolkeen, arzno have techno wizard stuff sold retail I just don't see why magic scrolls would be any more rare than that. Due to their consumability it also keeps the amount of them floating around under control.

Local guilds may control what they allow their members put onto scrolls for sale such as not wanting yahoos running around with scrolls of sphere of annihiliation but otherwise if a place openly has techno wizard items for sale I see no reason you should not see shops selling scrolls/talismans/amulets with reasonable availability.

The reason they may want to limit scroll production is that another mage has a chance to learn the spell from the scroll. If it costs $1,000,000 to purchase a spell, then a scroll of that spell needs to be at least $200,000ish or else it's cheaper to try to convert the scroll than it is to purchase the spell directly.

Now, if the guy selling the scroll isn't trying to preserve his spell selling income, then the scroll cost can be much less.

--flatline

[kaid]

I am not even sure if that would be that much of a limiting factor. The two big selling points of scrolls are no PPE to cast them and generally it is faster to read a scroll than it is to cast mid/higher level spells with the added benefit of anybody who can read the language can use the scroll.

So what sales you may lose if a guy uses the scroll to learn the spell is made up for by people just wanting it for the main scroll usages or people who otherwise cannot even cast spells. Why bother getting a TW item that can shoot fireballs when you know the spell fireball. The answer to that as well as scrolls is usually efficiency.

That said most of the scrolls you are likely to find commonly are going to be higher level attack spells like call lightning or defensive magics like armor of ithan, immunity to energy stuff like that. Stuff that is useful even if you know the spell already.

[flatline]

I am not even sure if that would be that much of a limiting factor. The two big selling points of scrolls are no PPE to cast them and generally it is faster to read a scroll than it is to cast mid/higher level spells with the added benefit of anybody who can read the language can use the scroll.

So what sales you may lose if a guy uses the scroll to learn the spell is made up for by people just wanting it for the main scroll usages or people who otherwise cannot even cast spells. Why bother getting a TW item that can shoot fireballs when you know the spell fireball. The answer to that as well as scrolls is usually efficiency.

That said most of the scrolls you are likely to find commonly are going to be higher level attack spells like call lightning or defensive magics like armor of ithan, immunity to energy stuff like that. Stuff that is useful even if you know the spell already.

I agree completely.

--flatline

[Nekira Sudacne]

I agree, the idea that most PoMs are illiterate is just plain stupid. PoMs are men of knowledge and the LLM in RUE gets a bonus of 1D4 to IQ. How can they be illiterate?

In regards to the original topic the average LLW of any level would have 3-4 magic scroll(May have more but most don't for a very good reason I'll explain later) at any give time. These scrolls would only be used in an emergency (like low PPE levels, or if the mage himself is knocked out his comrades can use them) and they will be a spells that will help him escape. The mage could (if he knows the spell) make more and by using the UNLIMITED AMOUNTS OF PPE AT LAY LINES/NEXUS POINTS an unlimited number of scrolls as a matter of fact but most don't for some very good reasons 1. The mage wouldn't want his spells being learned by another mage by using said scrolls 2. Lot of scrolls will make the mage a target for theft. 3. The local guild wount be very happy that the mage has used their lay line to make a tone of scrolls that he may sell in their territory( as a GM I wouldn't really care about this last one cause it makes excellent adventure fodder I.e. gulf learn of mage, go to kick mage butt, mage kicks guild butt, guild impressed, gulf heir mage, adventure time).

But all this is only my personal opinion.

I just don't see any huge balance issue with things like create scroll as long as the GM's are being somewhat sane. Sure a player could make unlimited amounts of scrolls if allowed to sit unmolested on a leyline/nexus for an unlimited period of time.

Now the reason this usually won't cause problems is ley lines and nexus are big attractions to any force of magic and the chance you are going to sit unmolested on a nexus while you write out piles of scrolls is highly unlikely for any period of time. Ley lines are basically roads/highways for supernatural forces and unless you are in some city like arzno or merc town you are not going to remain undisturbed. If you are in a place like merc town or arzno chances are you are going to have to join or be a member of the local guild as they are going to be pretty protective of their resources especially from somebody cranking out scrolls that may undercut their market.

So…that means your agreeing with me? That's basically what I said.

Yup people tend to be really twitchy about letting mages be mages in rifts and I never understood it. Heck people expect techno wizards to crank out techno wizard geegaws for everybody but god forbid you make a scroll or an amulet that stores a spell.

Likely because industrial mages break the game as it's presented. as you said, played that way there's no reason they can't steamroll everything in their path. they clearly do not, ergo, either the setting is wrong or the rules are wrong.

[kaid]

But really how are industrial mages an issue especially for things like scrolls. Sure you may have a whole truck full of scrolls. Okay you get in a fight of that whole truck full of scrolls you have how many can you actually get to in an actual fire fight and use.

Scrolls are fairly bulky and to keep them in any sort of order for actual rapid use you are unlikely to have more than 4 or 5 at hand for any fight. If a game system with power armor/dragons/vampires breaks because somebody can cast 4 or 5 spells in a fight that don't cost ppe I would be pretty surprised.


Maybe the best way to think of scrolls is as the magic equivalent to mini missiles. Consumable OH Sh&t options for when you really need to do something big fast. Probably not something you are using every single fight but nice to have for the big battles or if you get jumped unexpectedly after you already used up your PPE in a earlier fight.

[Galroth]

But really how are industrial mages an issue especially for things like scrolls. Sure you may have a whole truck full of scrolls. Okay you get in a fight of that whole truck full of scrolls you have how many can you actually get to in an actual fire fight and use.

Scrolls are fairly bulky and to keep them in any sort of order for actual rapid use you are unlikely to have more than 4 or 5 at hand for any fight. If a game system with power armor/dragons/vampires breaks because somebody can cast 4 or 5 spells in a fight that don't cost ppe I would be pretty surprised.


Maybe the best way to think of scrolls is as the magic equivalent to mini missiles. Consumable OH Sh&t options for when you really need to do something big fast. Probably not something you are using every single fight but nice to have for the big battles or if you get jumped unexpectedly after you already used up your PPE in a earlier fight.

Remember also, scrolls are SDC pieces of paper. A Burster, a psychic with pyrokinesis, an enemy mage with Fire Gout or just a soldier with a flame thrower can ruin your day when you start pulling out scrolls.

[flatline]

But really how are industrial mages an issue especially for things like scrolls. Sure you may have a whole truck full of scrolls. Okay you get in a fight of that whole truck full of scrolls you have how many can you actually get to in an actual fire fight and use.

Scrolls are fairly bulky and to keep them in any sort of order for actual rapid use you are unlikely to have more than 4 or 5 at hand for any fight. If a game system with power armor/dragons/vampires breaks because somebody can cast 4 or 5 spells in a fight that don't cost ppe I would be pretty surprised.


Maybe the best way to think of scrolls is as the magic equivalent to mini missiles. Consumable OH Sh&t options for when you really need to do something big fast. Probably not something you are using every single fight but nice to have for the big battles or if you get jumped unexpectedly after you already used up your PPE in a earlier fight.

Remember also, scrolls are SDC pieces of paper. A Burster, a psychic with pyrokinesis, an enemy mage with Fire Gout or just a soldier with a flame thrower can ruin your day when you start pulling out scrolls.

Absolutely. Scrolls are best used out of combat or from the safety of a dimensional envelope. Or both.

We always played that it took twice as long to read a scroll as it took to cast the spell normally. Is that an actual rule or did we make that up?

--flatline

[kaid]

I believe casting from a scroll is two actions so potentially faster casting for higher end spells but slower casting than low level spells.

Also when thinking about scrolls think more about medieval type scrolls than a simple rolled up piece of paper. They take up a pretty reasonable amount of space you are not going into a fight with arms full of scrolls you may have a few scroll cases hanging from your belt but not very many.

Really scrolls only pose any issue at all if a GM lets a player get really silly with them and even then compared to most of the tech stuff out there they still probably are not over powered.

[flatline]

I believe casting from a scroll is two actions so potentially faster casting for higher end spells but slower casting than low level spells.

Also when thinking about scrolls think more about medieval type scrolls than a simple rolled up piece of paper. They take up a pretty reasonable amount of space you are not going into a fight with arms full of scrolls you may have a few scroll cases hanging from your belt but not very many.

Really scrolls only pose any issue at all if a GM lets a player get really silly with them and even then compared to most of the tech stuff out there they still probably are not over powered.

Talismans are for combat. Scrolls are for everything else.

As a player, when PPE is plentiful, I crank out scrolls of Dimensional Portal, Talisman, Mend the Broken, and Teleport:superior (or Time Warp: Space & Time). Resurrection is also nice if I know the spell.

--flatline

[Nekira Sudacne]

as far as i've ever found, reading a scroll is only a single action. if there's a rule that gives it a time, i'd like to get the page number

[wyrmraker]

I believe casting from a scroll is two actions so potentially faster casting for higher end spells but slower casting than low level spells.

Also when thinking about scrolls think more about medieval type scrolls than a simple rolled up piece of paper. They take up a pretty reasonable amount of space you are not going into a fight with arms full of scrolls you may have a few scroll cases hanging from your belt but not very many.

Really scrolls only pose any issue at all if a GM lets a player get really silly with them and even then compared to most of the tech stuff out there they still probably are not over powered.

Talismans are for combat. Scrolls are for everything else.

As a player, when PPE is plentiful, I crank out scrolls of Dimensional Portal, Talisman, Mend the Broken, and Teleport:superior (or Time Warp: Space & Time). Resurrection is also nice if I know the spell.

--flatline

I am actually surprised that Mend the Broken would be eligible to be placed on a scroll, considering the variable PPE cost. How do you work that out?

[Galroth]

I believe casting from a scroll is two actions so potentially faster casting for higher end spells but slower casting than low level spells.

Also when thinking about scrolls think more about medieval type scrolls than a simple rolled up piece of paper. They take up a pretty reasonable amount of space you are not going into a fight with arms full of scrolls you may have a few scroll cases hanging from your belt but not very many.

Really scrolls only pose any issue at all if a GM lets a player get really silly with them and even then compared to most of the tech stuff out there they still probably are not over powered.

Talismans are for combat. Scrolls are for everything else.

As a player, when PPE is plentiful, I crank out scrolls of Dimensional Portal, Talisman, Mend the Broken, and Teleport:superior (or Time Warp: Space & Time). Resurrection is also nice if I know the spell.

--flatline

I am actually surprised that Mend the Broken would be eligible to be placed on a scroll, considering the variable PPE cost. How do you work that out?

I'd say pre-pay the cost you want to use then anything unused at the time the scroll is read is then lost.

[flatline]

I believe casting from a scroll is two actions so potentially faster casting for higher end spells but slower casting than low level spells.

Also when thinking about scrolls think more about medieval type scrolls than a simple rolled up piece of paper. They take up a pretty reasonable amount of space you are not going into a fight with arms full of scrolls you may have a few scroll cases hanging from your belt but not very many.

Really scrolls only pose any issue at all if a GM lets a player get really silly with them and even then compared to most of the tech stuff out there they still probably are not over powered.

Talismans are for combat. Scrolls are for everything else.

As a player, when PPE is plentiful, I crank out scrolls of Dimensional Portal, Talisman, Mend the Broken, and Teleport:superior (or Time Warp: Space & Time). Resurrection is also nice if I know the spell.

--flatline

I am actually surprised that Mend the Broken would be eligible to be placed on a scroll, considering the variable PPE cost. How do you work that out?

I'd say pre-pay the cost you want to use then anything unused at the time the scroll is read is then lost.

Yup. That's how we treated it.

--flatline

[wyrmraker]

Okay, good to know. I'll file that away for future reference. Thanks.

[Shark_Force]

as far as i've ever found, reading a scroll is only a single action. if there's a rule that gives it a time, i'd like to get the page number

i've generally assumed reading a scroll takes as long as casting the spell that the scroll contains.

but on a side note, another reason to use a scroll instead of a spell is that if you use a ritual to create the scroll, the saving throw difficulty goes up to 16. of course, this presumes you can use a ritual of create magic scroll to make a standard invocation use of a spell... which isn't really clearly stated one way or the other.

[Tor]

If I was a fellow who knew 'Create Scroll' and aimed to make a living selling scrolls, I might have a financial incentive to pay to have others who knew how to create scrolls murdered so as to increase the demand for my wares.

Were I a fellow with such an ability who were not adequately protected, I might be hesitant to make many scrolls, lest people think I had made them myself instead of purchasing them.

as far as i've ever found, reading a scroll is only a single action. if there's a rule that gives it a time, i'd like to get the page number

Could have sworn at some point I encountered something about it taking as long to read as it does to cast, but couldn't tell you where. Lemme consult the FAQ...

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/magic.html (Updated: 06/11/02)
44. How many attacks are used when casting a spell from a scroll? Is it dependant on the level of the spell? The description says anyone can use a scroll, but the eye of mystic knowledge tattoo gives a percentage chance to use scrolls.
Answer: Reading a scroll requires at least two melee actions. The higher level spells (7 or higher) may require up to four melee actions. It requires at least a 55% literacy in the language that the scroll is inscribed in to use it.

137. With a Talisman charged with spells, can anyone invoke the magic in it (Just as anyone can read a scroll & get an effect). How quickly do the spells manifest? Say a fire bolt spell is charged. Does it fire in one melee action, or does it take the same time as a normally cast firebolt spell.
Answer: Anyone could use it, and one action is all it takes to release the magic within.

This could be the source of our general idea of Talisman = 1 action Scroll = casting time thing.

[Shark_Force]

unfortunately, the FAQ is more well known for being inaccurate than anything else =S

personally, i would actually use scroll = casting time of spell, talisman = 1 action as well, but i would do that because that's how i think it should be, not because of the FAQ.

[Nekira Sudacne]

If I was a fellow who knew 'Create Scroll' and aimed to make a living selling scrolls, I might have a financial incentive to pay to have others who knew how to create scrolls murdered so as to increase the demand for my wares.

Were I a fellow with such an ability who were not adequately protected, I might be hesitant to make many scrolls, lest people think I had made them myself instead of purchasing them.

as far as i've ever found, reading a scroll is only a single action. if there's a rule that gives it a time, i'd like to get the page number

Could have sworn at some point I encountered something about it taking as long to read as it does to cast, but couldn't tell you where. Lemme consult the FAQ...

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/magic.html (Updated: 06/11/02)
44. How many attacks are used when casting a spell from a scroll? Is it dependant on the level of the spell? The description says anyone can use a scroll, but the eye of mystic knowledge tattoo gives a percentage chance to use scrolls.
Answer: Reading a scroll requires at least two melee actions. The higher level spells (7 or higher) may require up to four melee actions. It requires at least a 55% literacy in the language that the scroll is inscribed in to use it.

137. With a Talisman charged with spells, can anyone invoke the magic in it (Just as anyone can read a scroll & get an effect). How quickly do the spells manifest? Say a fire bolt spell is charged. Does it fire in one melee action, or does it take the same time as a normally cast firebolt spell.
Answer: Anyone could use it, and one action is all it takes to release the magic within.

This could be the source of our general idea of Talisman = 1 action Scroll = casting time thing.

Ah, yes, the infamous, sometimes inaccurate, and completely nonoffical FAQ. it dosn't count as an offical source, though it does say where the idea comes from. though unless you have something more solid, as far as i'm concerned there's still nothing saying it takes a long time to read.

[Shark_Force]

If I was a fellow who knew 'Create Scroll' and aimed to make a living selling scrolls, I might have a financial incentive to pay to have others who knew how to create scrolls murdered so as to increase the demand for my wares.

Were I a fellow with such an ability who were not adequately protected, I might be hesitant to make many scrolls, lest people think I had made them myself instead of purchasing them.

as far as i've ever found, reading a scroll is only a single action. if there's a rule that gives it a time, i'd like to get the page number

Could have sworn at some point I encountered something about it taking as long to read as it does to cast, but couldn't tell you where. Lemme consult the FAQ...

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/magic.html (Updated: 06/11/02)
44. How many attacks are used when casting a spell from a scroll? Is it dependant on the level of the spell? The description says anyone can use a scroll, but the eye of mystic knowledge tattoo gives a percentage chance to use scrolls.
Answer: Reading a scroll requires at least two melee actions. The higher level spells (7 or higher) may require up to four melee actions. It requires at least a 55% literacy in the language that the scroll is inscribed in to use it.

137. With a Talisman charged with spells, can anyone invoke the magic in it (Just as anyone can read a scroll & get an effect). How quickly do the spells manifest? Say a fire bolt spell is charged. Does it fire in one melee action, or does it take the same time as a normally cast firebolt spell.
Answer: Anyone could use it, and one action is all it takes to release the magic within.

This could be the source of our general idea of Talisman = 1 action Scroll = casting time thing.

Ah, yes, the infamous, sometimes inaccurate, and completely nonoffical FAQ. it dosn't count as an offical source, though it does say where the idea comes from. though unless you have something more solid, as far as i'm concerned there's still nothing saying it takes a long time to read.

i would say that the spell description itself is more solid, just vague.

the spell indicates that you are writing down the words to the spell. you activate the spell by reading it.

how long should it take to read the words to the spell? well, probably exactly as long as it takes to speak the words of the spell normally.

it's pretty solid as a source, but it does require that you make a few assumptions (for example, you must assume the words to the spell are what you say when you cast it normally, and that there isn't any other factor when you cast a spell that makes it take longer than the amount of time to speak the words of the spell).

which is why, like i said, my personal ruling is that using a scroll takes as long as casting the spell normally would... but that's just my personal ruling. it's arguably the canon interpretation, but that's not spelled out anywhere

(egad... was that just two puns in one? i'm getting worse... )

[flatline]

If I was a fellow who knew 'Create Scroll' and aimed to make a living selling scrolls, I might have a financial incentive to pay to have others who knew how to create scrolls murdered so as to increase the demand for my wares.

Were I a fellow with such an ability who were not adequately protected, I might be hesitant to make many scrolls, lest people think I had made them myself instead of purchasing them.

as far as i've ever found, reading a scroll is only a single action. if there's a rule that gives it a time, i'd like to get the page number

Could have sworn at some point I encountered something about it taking as long to read as it does to cast, but couldn't tell you where. Lemme consult the FAQ...

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/magic.html (Updated: 06/11/02)
44. How many attacks are used when casting a spell from a scroll? Is it dependant on the level of the spell? The description says anyone can use a scroll, but the eye of mystic knowledge tattoo gives a percentage chance to use scrolls.
Answer: Reading a scroll requires at least two melee actions. The higher level spells (7 or higher) may require up to four melee actions. It requires at least a 55% literacy in the language that the scroll is inscribed in to use it.

137. With a Talisman charged with spells, can anyone invoke the magic in it (Just as anyone can read a scroll & get an effect). How quickly do the spells manifest? Say a fire bolt spell is charged. Does it fire in one melee action, or does it take the same time as a normally cast firebolt spell.
Answer: Anyone could use it, and one action is all it takes to release the magic within.

This could be the source of our general idea of Talisman = 1 action Scroll = casting time thing.

Ah, yes, the infamous, sometimes inaccurate, and completely nonoffical FAQ. it dosn't count as an offical source, though it does say where the idea comes from. though unless you have something more solid, as far as i'm concerned there's still nothing saying it takes a long time to read.

i would say that the spell description itself is more solid, just vague.

the spell indicates that you are writing down the words to the spell. you activate the spell by reading it.

how long should it take to read the words to the spell? well, probably exactly as long as it takes to speak the words of the spell normally.

it's pretty solid as a source, but it does require that you make a few assumptions (for example, you must assume the words to the spell are what you say when you cast it normally, and that there isn't any other factor when you cast a spell that makes it take longer than the amount of time to speak the words of the spell).

which is why, like i said, my personal ruling is that using a scroll takes as long as casting the spell normally would... but that's just my personal ruling. it's arguably the canon interpretation, but that's not spelled out anywhere

(egad... was that just two puns in one? i'm getting worse... )

I can read much faster than I can speak as long as I'm not reading aloud. I don't have my books, but I do believe that scrolls can be read quietly.

--flatline

[Nekira Sudacne]

i would say that the spell description itself is more solid, just vague.

the spell indicates that you are writing down the words to the spell. you activate the spell by reading it.

how long should it take to read the words to the spell? well, probably exactly as long as it takes to speak the words of the spell normally.

it's pretty solid as a source, but it does require that you make a few assumptions (for example, you must assume the words to the spell are what you say when you cast it normally, and that there isn't any other factor when you cast a spell that makes it take longer than the amount of time to speak the words of the spell).

Ummm, I can read a whole lot faster than I can speak. a lot faster.

which is why, like i said, my personal ruling is that using a scroll takes as long as casting the spell normally would... but that's just my personal ruling. it's arguably the canon interpretation, but that's not spelled out anywhere

(egad... was that just two puns in one? i'm getting worse... )

Granted, without an offical ruling (that we've yet found) one GM's call is just as valid as another (and perfectly valid at their own table even if the books did say otherwise), but like I said, it's easy to read a LOT faster than one can speak.

[Shark_Force]

for clarity, the create magic scroll spell includes the following sentence:

"To activate the scroll the spell must be read aloud."

so your ability to read silently faster than you speak is all very nice, but does not help you use scrolls any faster.

[Blue_Lion]

That would be looking for things that aren't there, I've noticed you get defensive fast alot.

Is it defensive to ask questions ?

That one, in response to his point, yes.
Almost the epitome of defensiveness.

Defensiveness = A feeling. Something clearly lacking when your debating something over an "Internet" baord. If you guys think asking a question is being defensive, I'd hate to see what happens when your guys wives as you to do the dishes

it is not asking a question that was defencive but the wording of the of it that makes it seams so.

Athou I personaly feel it whould be unlikly that a lvl 5 llw whould have any scrolls on them. Partialy because the spells required are far beyound what is normaly avaible, meaning the mage whould have to something impresive to get it.

I also fill just because some one can do something does not mean they should. I 350 pound man can go out side in a speedo does not mean he should.

I do not think using a scroll whould be that quick or ideal for most spell use. Now for a major stradigic or get out of tight spot maybe. But that whould be something a higher level spell. Then do to packing and need to carry and risk of theft even a powrfull mage might only have 1-2 carfully tucked away. Instead i whould seam them with at 5th level 3-7 TW items enchanments, posibaly some sort of TW caned spells as beeing more common than scrolls.

[Subjugator]

It also breaks down to usability and PPE cost just because you can get a spell doesn't always mean you should.

So then you would punish the LLW PC who wanted to start making Scrolls .. because as you put it .. just because you can get a spell doesn't always mean you should ?

In essence your trying to handicap the LLW ?

That would be looking for things that aren't there, I've noticed you get defensive fast alot. I'm saying as a player sometimes one should really think if having a super powerful spell is with in their levels of PPE they can get their hands on and if this spell has a real use other then "Look I have a 15th level spell that makes me uber awesome!" Cause in the end you might end up saying "I don't have the PPE to use it and even if I do get my hands on that much PPE I'm going to be drained and screwed afterwards." It then turns out that so called great spell was just a waste until your higher level. Asking a player to think about their spell selection isn't punishment if they want ok but your the one that could have went for something that you don't have to wait eight levels or need a dozens things in place to use.

But if they take the time to make it into a few scrolls, it would be well worth the selection.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

To answer what I imagine his question to actually be:

I think those LLWs that have those spells available to them and access to a ley line where they can concentrate and work in relative safety have lots and lots of scrolls! Frickin' ages of them!

Most who have such would be NPCs. They would be very unlikely to make scrolls of 'scribe scroll' or 'energy sphere' though, so even if you kill them, you're not likely to get a lot of new spells. What you'd get is a bunch of scrolls for a very few incredibly useful spells.

/Sub

[flatline]

To answer what I imagine his question to actually be:

I think those LLWs that have those spells available to them and access to a ley line where they can concentrate and work in relative safety have lots and lots of scrolls! Frickin' ages of them!

Most who have such would be NPCs. They would be very unlikely to make scrolls of 'scribe scroll' or 'energy sphere' though, so even if you kill them, you're not likely to get a lot of new spells. What you'd get is a bunch of scrolls for a very few incredibly useful spells.

/Sub

Ha! Even though my Temporal Wizards are walking around with potentially hundreds of scrolls, they're all safely hidden in dimensional pockets. So unless you're another Temporal practitioner or a Shifter (or, I suppose a psychic with Sense Dimensional Anomaly if the GM rules it can sense Dimensional Pockets), you're not going to get any of my loot until my dimensional pockets expire in 1 or 2 year's time (assuming the GM rules that expired dimensional pockets regurgitate their contents upon expiration).

--flatline

[Blue_Lion]

If I was a fellow who knew 'Create Scroll' and aimed to make a living selling scrolls, I might have a financial incentive to pay to have others who knew how to create scrolls murdered so as to increase the demand for my wares.

Were I a fellow with such an ability who were not adequately protected, I might be hesitant to make many scrolls, lest people think I had made them myself instead of purchasing them.

as far as i've ever found, reading a scroll is only a single action. if there's a rule that gives it a time, i'd like to get the page number

Could have sworn at some point I encountered something about it taking as long to read as it does to cast, but couldn't tell you where. Lemme consult the FAQ...

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/questions/magic.html (Updated: 06/11/02)
44. How many attacks are used when casting a spell from a scroll? Is it dependant on the level of the spell? The description says anyone can use a scroll, but the eye of mystic knowledge tattoo gives a percentage chance to use scrolls.
Answer: Reading a scroll requires at least two melee actions. The higher level spells (7 or higher) may require up to four melee actions. It requires at least a 55% literacy in the language that the scroll is inscribed in to use it.

137. With a Talisman charged with spells, can anyone invoke the magic in it (Just as anyone can read a scroll & get an effect). How quickly do the spells manifest? Say a fire bolt spell is charged. Does it fire in one melee action, or does it take the same time as a normally cast firebolt spell.
Answer: Anyone could use it, and one action is all it takes to release the magic within.

This could be the source of our general idea of Talisman = 1 action Scroll = casting time thing.

Ah, yes, the infamous, sometimes inaccurate, and completely nonoffical FAQ. it dosn't count as an offical source, though it does say where the idea comes from. though unless you have something more solid, as far as i'm concerned there's still nothing saying it takes a long time to read.

i would say that the spell description itself is more solid, just vague.

the spell indicates that you are writing down the words to the spell. you activate the spell by reading it.

how long should it take to read the words to the spell? well, probably exactly as long as it takes to speak the words of the spell normally.

it's pretty solid as a source, but it does require that you make a few assumptions (for example, you must assume the words to the spell are what you say when you cast it normally, and that there isn't any other factor when you cast a spell that makes it take longer than the amount of time to speak the words of the spell).

which is why, like i said, my personal ruling is that using a scroll takes as long as casting the spell normally would... but that's just my personal ruling. it's arguably the canon interpretation, but that's not spelled out anywhere

(egad... was that just two puns in one? i'm getting worse... )

if you happen to have the scroll handy. Who walks around with a scroll in hands ready to read. whould it not take 1 or more actions to fish it out from your pack? you whould need to pull it out and ready it to read.