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Is there a way to circumnavigate the annoying ability of Dragons teleporting as a defensive action. The only one I can think of is Anti-Magic Cloud, but I am trying to see if there is another way to accomplish the same thing.
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GenThunderfist wrote:I need a Dragon in lock-down!![]()
Is there a way to circumnavigate the annoying ability of Dragons teleporting as a defensive action. The only one I can think of is Anti-Magic Cloud, but I am trying to see if there is another way to accomplish the same thing.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:GenThunderfist wrote:I need a Dragon in lock-down!![]()
Is there a way to circumnavigate the annoying ability of Dragons teleporting as a defensive action. The only one I can think of is Anti-Magic Cloud, but I am trying to see if there is another way to accomplish the same thing.
The spell Dimensional Barrier (Library of Bethrald, Palladium Fantasy) locks down all teleportation in a pretty good radius.
Block or Seal aginst Teleportation and Mystic Portal (one spell, just a really convoluted name) is a space magic spell that accomplishes the same thing.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Nekira Sudacne wrote:GenThunderfist wrote:I need a Dragon in lock-down!![]()
Is there a way to circumnavigate the annoying ability of Dragons teleporting as a defensive action. The only one I can think of is Anti-Magic Cloud, but I am trying to see if there is another way to accomplish the same thing.
The spell Dimensional Barrier (Library of Bethrald, Palladium Fantasy) locks down all teleportation in a pretty good radius.
Block or Seal aginst Teleportation and Mystic Portal (one spell, just a really convoluted name) is a space magic spell that accomplishes the same thing.
IIRC, Barrier of Thoth also blocks teleportation.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Nekira Sudacne wrote:GenThunderfist wrote:I need a Dragon in lock-down!![]()
Is there a way to circumnavigate the annoying ability of Dragons teleporting as a defensive action. The only one I can think of is Anti-Magic Cloud, but I am trying to see if there is another way to accomplish the same thing.
The spell Dimensional Barrier (Library of Bethrald, Palladium Fantasy) locks down all teleportation in a pretty good radius.
Block or Seal aginst Teleportation and Mystic Portal (one spell, just a really convoluted name) is a space magic spell that accomplishes the same thing.
IIRC, Barrier of Thoth also blocks teleportation.
Only from one side to the other. the dragon would still be free to teleport dodge in any other direction from the wall.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Nekira Sudacne wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Nekira Sudacne wrote:GenThunderfist wrote:I need a Dragon in lock-down!![]()
Is there a way to circumnavigate the annoying ability of Dragons teleporting as a defensive action. The only one I can think of is Anti-Magic Cloud, but I am trying to see if there is another way to accomplish the same thing.
The spell Dimensional Barrier (Library of Bethrald, Palladium Fantasy) locks down all teleportation in a pretty good radius.
Block or Seal aginst Teleportation and Mystic Portal (one spell, just a really convoluted name) is a space magic spell that accomplishes the same thing.
IIRC, Barrier of Thoth also blocks teleportation.
Only from one side to the other. the dragon would still be free to teleport dodge in any other direction from the wall.
You can't make a cube?
Even if you can't do it in one casting, have 6 mages cast it, each making a wall.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:In theory, possibly, but if you have six mages with three thousand PPE each, you probablly have better ways to deal with the dragon.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Nekira Sudacne wrote:In theory, possibly, but if you have six mages with three thousand PPE each, you probablly have better ways to deal with the dragon.
What about 6 mages with scrolls?
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Nekira Sudacne wrote:In theory, possibly, but if you have six mages with three thousand PPE each, you probablly have better ways to deal with the dragon.
What about 6 mages with scrolls?
Same principle. If you have access to those kinds of resources there are still easier ways to do it.
the real question is, of course, weather or not it's possible, and I don't think it is. nothing in the spell suggests you can lay a wall flat. the spell says it creates a wall, not a roof or a floor, and nothing suggests it's possible to knock it down without depeleting all it's MDC (thus destroying it entirely)
Killer Cyborg wrote:Nekira Sudacne wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Nekira Sudacne wrote:In theory, possibly, but if you have six mages with three thousand PPE each, you probablly have better ways to deal with the dragon.
What about 6 mages with scrolls?
Same principle. If you have access to those kinds of resources there are still easier ways to do it.
Like?the real question is, of course, weather or not it's possible, and I don't think it is. nothing in the spell suggests you can lay a wall flat. the spell says it creates a wall, not a roof or a floor, and nothing suggests it's possible to knock it down without depeleting all it's MDC (thus destroying it entirely)
Well, nothing suggests that you can't lay the wall flat.
"Flat" is a relative term.
Likewise, there is nothing suggesting that the wall cannot be curved.
So it might be possible to get by with two castings, each circling the target.
Eashamahel wrote:Would Anti-Magic cloud even have an effect, since it is an innate ability of a creature of magic, and not a magic spell?
Killer Cyborg wrote:Nekira Sudacne wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Nekira Sudacne wrote:In theory, possibly, but if you have six mages with three thousand PPE each, you probablly have better ways to deal with the dragon.
What about 6 mages with scrolls?
Same principle. If you have access to those kinds of resources there are still easier ways to do it.
Like?
the real question is, of course, weather or not it's possible, and I don't think it is. nothing in the spell suggests you can lay a wall flat. the spell says it creates a wall, not a roof or a floor, and nothing suggests it's possible to knock it down without depeleting all it's MDC (thus destroying it entirely)
Well, nothing suggests that you can't lay the wall flat.
"Flat" is a relative term.
Likewise, there is nothing suggesting that the wall cannot be curved.
So it might be possible to get by with two castings, each circling the target.
dragonfett wrote:What about the Shifter's ability to know and follow teleportation? I can't remember exactly what it can and can't do.
nilgravity wrote:dragonfett wrote:What about the Shifter's ability to know and follow teleportation? I can't remember exactly what it can and can't do.
Oooh can TW missiles be enchanted with follow teleportation?
Whether "innate" or not, Dragon Teleportation as described in the books is still a magical effect and as such, would be blocked by the properties of the A-M Cloud spell.Eashamahel wrote:Would Anti-Magic cloud even have an effect, since it is an innate ability of a creature of magic, and not a magic spell?
rat_bastard wrote:Splynne Dimensional Market page 144,
The Serpent Slayer, a spear, javelin or trident that imbeds itself in dragons it attacks and and makes teleporting more difficult. Sale of these is very controlled because dragons don't want them sold and even the Splugorith take the opinions of dragons in mind.
Also shooting one with a tracking arrow and using it to target long range missiles tends to work pretty well as well.
Zamion138 wrote:The spell force bonds i belive stops teleportation , and is not ultra high level or 3k in ppe costs.
Having 6 scrolls of barriaer of toth is a huge exspense. Isnt it a spell of legend? That would make the scroll well over a million each.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Zamion138 wrote:The spell force bonds i believe stops teleportation , and is not ultra high level or 3k in ppe costs.
Having 6 scrolls of barrier of thoth is a huge expense. Isn't it a spell of legend? That would make the scroll well over a million each.
Not to the Mage who could make those scrolls.
Then they'd be worth some parchment and ink.
Zamion138 wrote:The spell force bonds I believe stops teleportation , and is not ultra high level or 3k in ppe costs.
Having 6 scrolls of barrier of Thoth is a huge expense. Isn't it a spell of legend? That would make the scroll well over a million each.
RUE page 214 wrote:"Teleporting away, while bound, will take the character to a new location, but he is still bound."
Killer Cyborg wrote:Zamion138 wrote:The spell force bonds i belive stops teleportation , and is not ultra high level or 3k in ppe costs.
Having 6 scrolls of barriaer of toth is a huge exspense. Isnt it a spell of legend? That would make the scroll well over a million each.
Not to the Mage who could make those scrolls.
Then they'd be worth some parchment and ink.
Zamion138 wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Zamion138 wrote:The spell force bonds i belive stops teleportation , and is not ultra high level or 3k in ppe costs.
Having 6 scrolls of barriaer of toth is a huge exspense. Isnt it a spell of legend? That would make the scroll well over a million each.
Not to the Mage who could make those scrolls.
Then they'd be worth some parchment and ink.
Yeah 18600 ppe, and some paper.
Thats a crap ton of ppe. While it might not be the same as the physical costs of say 6 icbm's in magical terms it may as well be. Thats probably enough ppe for an AI to lock in on a plane of existence.
it seems like a high price to pay to get rid of a dragon. For alot less ppe and divine favors owed you could do 6 scrolls of ahnilation, and just kill the thing.
rat_bastard wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Zamion138 wrote:The spell force bonds i believe stops teleportation , and is not ultra high level or 3k in ppe costs.
Having 6 scrolls of barrier of thoth is a huge expense. Isn't it a spell of legend? That would make the scroll well over a million each.
Not to the Mage who could make those scrolls.
Then they'd be worth some parchment and ink.
Remember that a mage who uses a scroll has a chance of learning the spell cast instantly, and Barrier of Thoth is a spell of legend, the mage who hands out such a scroll is potentially handing out millions if not billions of credits.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Nekira Sudacne wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Nekira Sudacne wrote:In theory, possibly, but if you have six mages with three thousand PPE each, you probablly have better ways to deal with the dragon.
What about 6 mages with scrolls?
Same principle. If you have access to those kinds of resources there are still easier ways to do it.
Like?
Dimensional barrier+spending some of those millions on nuclear missiles to blow the dragon to peices with once it can't teleport out of the blast.
You can make the argument that a mage could curve the wall spells, I just find those arguments unconvincing.
A simple, natural reading of the spell is it makes an x by x by x wall with Y damage capacity. that's it. it gives no ability to shape or alter the wall, and i'm not inclined to beleive it's possible to do so.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Well, sure... IF you happen to have a 12th level spell located in an obscure tome in the Palladium Fantasy world, instead of a Spell of Legend.
And IF you have millions to spend on nukes.
And IF you don't care about civilian casualties, or are going to be ambushing the target far from anybody else.
But I don't know that any of those things are something to just take for granted.
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Since no specific scenario was presented in the OP, I don't think this is an either/or kind of discussion; it seems to be open for a wide variety of ideas.
Which ideas would work best would depend on what exactly is available in the game, and what the exact scenario is.
Lacking that kind of information, it seems strange to make assumptions about what is or is not available for the hypothetical person/people squaring off against a hypothetical dragon of unknown power in unknown situations.
You can make the argument that a mage could curve the wall spells, I just find those arguments unconvincing.
A simple, natural reading of the spell is it makes an x by x by x wall with Y damage capacity. that's it. it gives no ability to shape or alter the wall, and i'm not inclined to beleive it's possible to do so.
It gives no shape for the wall. You assume that it's flat, but I see no reason to make that assumption.
The spell Shadow Wall (BoM 149) specifies that it can NOT be made into a circle or other shape, and it specifies that that wall "is relatively straight," although it "may curve a bit."
The fact that this spell specifies that it cannot be made into circles or other shapes indicates that other magically created walls can be.
If you don't want to rule that way in your games, that's cool; but if other people want to rule another way, that's just as legitimate, if not more so.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Well, sure... IF you happen to have a 12th level spell located in an obscure tome in the Palladium Fantasy world, instead of a Spell of Legend.
And IF you have millions to spend on nukes.
And IF you don't care about civilian casualties, or are going to be ambushing the target far from anybody else.
But I don't know that any of those things are something to just take for granted.
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Funny, that was my point about six people with scrolls of barrier of thoth.
It might work in theory, but it's hardly something one can take for granted.
And it could be argued that the text in the book indicates that dimensional barrier is an earth warlock spell, in which case a lot more people have access to it, anyone who could summon a greater elemental for starters. (it specifys that the majority of barrier spells are earth warlock spells but dosn't specifiy exactly which ones, so one could argue that any given one is an earth warlock spell)
Since no specific scenario was presented in the OP, I don't think this is an either/or kind of discussion; it seems to be open for a wide variety of ideas.
Which ideas would work best would depend on what exactly is available in the game, and what the exact scenario is.
Lacking that kind of information, it seems strange to make assumptions about what is or is not available for the hypothetical person/people squaring off against a hypothetical dragon of unknown power in unknown situations.
The OP didn't seem to be asking for whiteboard theoretical solutions, he asked "Help, how do I stop a dragons teleport dodge". that question sounds like he needs practicle advice for a particular problem he's having in a game, not for impracticle theoretical solutition. My point isn't that the nuke the dragon senario was more helpful, it's that neither senario is helpful.
You can make the argument that a mage could curve the wall spells, I just find those arguments unconvincing.
A simple, natural reading of the spell is it makes an x by x by x wall with Y damage capacity. that's it. it gives no ability to shape or alter the wall, and i'm not inclined to beleive it's possible to do so.
It gives no shape for the wall. You assume that it's flat, but I see no reason to make that assumption.
The spell Shadow Wall (BoM 149) specifies that it can NOT be made into a circle or other shape, and it specifies that that wall "is relatively straight," although it "may curve a bit."
The fact that this spell specifies that it cannot be made into circles or other shapes indicates that other magically created walls can be.
No, it just indicates palladium has never been particuarly consistant with labeling things.
If you don't want to rule that way in your games, that's cool; but if other people want to rule another way, that's just as legitimate, if not more so.
I never indicated otherwise? I merely said that I personally found the argument unconvincing.
Gryphon wrote:Is he even looking for a magic answer here? That's a good list of options, but is he even going to have access to that option? That would be a good starting point to work of of. What magic does he have access too, what psionics, what technology.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Nekira Sudacne wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Well, sure... IF you happen to have a 12th level spell located in an obscure tome in the Palladium Fantasy world, instead of a Spell of Legend.
And IF you have millions to spend on nukes.
And IF you don't care about civilian casualties, or are going to be ambushing the target far from anybody else.
But I don't know that any of those things are something to just take for granted.
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Funny, that was my point about six people with scrolls of barrier of thoth.
Odd.
I did not get that message from any of your posts.
I never indicated otherwise? I merely said that I personally found the argument unconvincing.
It seemed more like you were arguing that it was not a legitimate interpretation.
Mark Hall wrote:Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.
Mark Hall wrote:Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.
GenThunderfist wrote:Alright, thanks for all the ideas
To help out, the dragon is and Adult Dragon and is already angered. The point of the problem revolves that if enough damage was done to the dragon, it could just leave and come back when it's fully healed to try again. I'm trying to find a way to lock the dragon down so that it can't leave until either the attackers are dead, or the dragon is dead - so it couldn't leave anyway.
I don't mind a magic solution, I just wanted to know if there was ANYTHING other than Anti-Magic Cloud or Spells of Legend because I really couldn't find anything. Not that those aren't both plausible, I was simply hoping for other more attainable options.
Alrik Vas wrote:My solution for keeping a dragon from using Teleport to escape:
Make it really mad at you. Most anyone tends to obsess when they're angry.
rat_bastard wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Zamion138 wrote:The spell force bonds i believe stops teleportation , and is not ultra high level or 3k in ppe costs.
Having 6 scrolls of barrier of thoth is a huge expense. Isn't it a spell of legend? That would make the scroll well over a million each.
Not to the Mage who could make those scrolls.
Then they'd be worth some parchment and ink.
Remember that a mage who uses a scroll has a chance of learning the spell cast instantly, and Barrier of Thoth is a spell of legend, the mage who hands out such a scroll is potentially handing out millions if not billions of credits.
Panomas wrote:Give the Dragon a reason to stay.
Glistam wrote:rat_bastard wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Zamion138 wrote:The spell force bonds i believe stops teleportation , and is not ultra high level or 3k in ppe costs.
Having 6 scrolls of barrier of thoth is a huge expense. Isn't it a spell of legend? That would make the scroll well over a million each.
Not to the Mage who could make those scrolls.
Then they'd be worth some parchment and ink.
Remember that a mage who uses a scroll has a chance of learning the spell cast instantly, and Barrier of Thoth is a spell of legend, the mage who hands out such a scroll is potentially handing out millions if not billions of credits.
Can we get a book and page number for reference here?
GenThunderfist wrote:Alright, thanks for all the ideas
To help out, the dragon is and Adult Dragon and is already angered. The point of the problem revolves that if enough damage was done to the dragon, it could just leave and come back when it's fully healed to try again. I'm trying to find a way to lock the dragon down so that it can't leave until either the attackers are dead, or the dragon is dead - so it couldn't leave anyway.
I don't mind a magic solution, I just wanted to know if there was ANYTHING other than Anti-Magic Cloud or Spells of Legend because I really couldn't find anything. Not that those aren't both plausible, I was simply hoping for other more attainable options.
dragonfett wrote:What about the Shifter's ability to know and follow teleportation? I can't remember exactly what it can and can't do.
3. Dimension Sense: Shifters are innately attuned to dimensions and dimensional energies. After only a few moments of concentration (typically 1d6+2 minutes), a Shifter is able to tell the type of dimension (whether it's an Infinite, Parallel, or a Pocket Dimension), how dense the dimensional fabric is (weak, permeable, strong or impenetrable), if the dimension or world can support human life, whether it is rich or poor in magic, artificially created (like a Pocket Dimension of a dragon or a god), and any type of unusual characteristics of the dimension that might be evident, all just by "reading" a connecting Rift/dimensional portal linked to that dimension or by meditating shortly after arriving to a new world. Base Skill: 35% +5% per level of experience. If the Shifter is not initially successful on either type of reading, he can try again 24 hours later or after he sets foot in the place.
Furthermore, when reading a dimensional portal, the Shifter will get a sense if the Rift will soon close, if it was opened deliberately or is a random occurrence, and if random, how frequently it opens to this particular world (often, seldom, rarely). he can also sense any dimensional anomalies that may be attached to the portal and if any dimension spanning monsters or demons are presently in or near the Rift. This information, however, is rolled separately under this Dimension Sense skill, and the player must indicate that his character is doing this aspect of the reading. The Shifter's success ratio is -10% from the base skill percentage.
Combat Note: Shifters can also use their Dimension Sense to detect when dimension type spells are cast. This can be a big edge in combat, especially when confronting another Shifter. First, a Dimension Sense must be rolled at the Shifter's normal skill level during combat. This uses up one melee attack as the mage momentarily opens himself up to the dimensional energies. A successful roll under the current Base Skill level means the Shifter will detect any dimension based magic (including Teleports, opening of portals, etc.) that occurs during that melee round, and if he sacrifices one melee attack per round, he can detect such magic in subsequent melee rounds for up to one minute per level of the Shifter.
If Dimension magic is detected, the Shifter who senses it can try to alter the course of the spell. For example: If another Shifter is trying to escape by creating a Dimensional Portal or Re-Open Gateway spell, the Shifter senses it and can try to redirect the magic by overriding it himself. This requires both mages to roll 1d20, high roll wins, defender wins ties. If the Shifter's roll is greater in this magical duel, he wins, and can alter it to close or lead someplace else, or remain open so he too can go through it. But to do any of that, he must also spend the same amount of PPE to override the dimensional magic and for the spell to do as he commands. In the case of a Teleport spell, he can have the person or object appear right in front of him, or at some other specific location (inside a vehicle, a prison cell, etc.), but not into solid matter or anything that could kill the mage. Note: The Shifter can never stop or cancel the dimensional magic, only change/redirect it. Each use of a magical redirection is the equivalent of casting a spell and uses up two melee attacks (and PPE). If the Shifter rolls low and fails to override the dimension magic, he spends half the PPE required to cast that spell and fails to change the outcome. Once the spell has been altered, it cannot be changed back. Remember, this overriding and control of magic only works on dimension based spells - spells that alter/warp space and/or time, or which open dimensional portals/provide dimensional travel - not any other types of spells or magic.
dragonfett wrote:dragonfett wrote:What about the Shifter's ability to know and follow teleportation? I can't remember exactly what it can and can't do.
Ok, so I was finally able to sit down and read what the Shifter's Dimension Sense can do:3. Dimension Sense: Shifters are innately attuned to dimensions and dimensional energies. After only a few moments of concentration (typically 1d6+2 minutes), a Shifter is able to tell the type of dimension (whether it's an Infinite, Parallel, or a Pocket Dimension), how dense the dimensional fabric is (weak, permeable, strong or impenetrable), if the dimension or world can support human life, whether it is rich or poor in magic, artificially created (like a Pocket Dimension of a dragon or a god), and any type of unusual characteristics of the dimension that might be evident, all just by "reading" a connecting Rift/dimensional portal linked to that dimension or by meditating shortly after arriving to a new world. Base Skill: 35% +5% per level of experience. If the Shifter is not initially successful on either type of reading, he can try again 24 hours later or after he sets foot in the place.
Furthermore, when reading a dimensional portal, the Shifter will get a sense if the Rift will soon close, if it was opened deliberately or is a random occurrence, and if random, how frequently it opens to this particular world (often, seldom, rarely). he can also sense any dimensional anomalies that may be attached to the portal and if any dimension spanning monsters or demons are presently in or near the Rift. This information, however, is rolled separately under this Dimension Sense skill, and the player must indicate that his character is doing this aspect of the reading. The Shifter's success ratio is -10% from the base skill percentage.
Combat Note: Shifters can also use their Dimension Sense to detect when dimension type spells are cast. This can be a big edge in combat, especially when confronting another Shifter. First, a Dimension Sense must be rolled at the Shifter's normal skill level during combat. This uses up one melee attack as the mage momentarily opens himself up to the dimensional energies. A successful roll under the current Base Skill level means the Shifter will detect any dimension based magic (including Teleports, opening of portals, etc.) that occurs during that melee round, and if he sacrifices one melee attack per round, he can detect such magic in subsequent melee rounds for up to one minute per level of the Shifter.
If Dimension magic is detected, the Shifter who senses it can try to alter the course of the spell. For example: If another Shifter is trying to escape by creating a Dimensional Portal or Re-Open Gateway spell, the Shifter senses it and can try to redirect the magic by overriding it himself. This requires both mages to roll 1d20, high roll wins, defender wins ties. If the Shifter's roll is greater in this magical duel, he wins, and can alter it to close or lead someplace else, or remain open so he too can go through it. But to do any of that, he must also spend the same amount of PPE to override the dimensional magic and for the spell to do as he commands. In the case of a Teleport spell, he can have the person or object appear right in front of him, or at some other specific location (inside a vehicle, a prison cell, etc.), but not into solid matter or anything that could kill the mage. Note: The Shifter can never stop or cancel the dimensional magic, only change/redirect it. Each use of a magical redirection is the equivalent of casting a spell and uses up two melee attacks (and PPE). If the Shifter rolls low and fails to override the dimension magic, he spends half the PPE required to cast that spell and fails to change the outcome. Once the spell has been altered, it cannot be changed back. Remember, this overriding and control of magic only works on dimension based spells - spells that alter/warp space and/or time, or which open dimensional portals/provide dimensional travel - not any other types of spells or magic.
With that in mind, do you think that a dragon's Teleport counts as a spell for the purposes of a Shifter trying to redirect it? And if so, how much PPE should a Shifter have to pay in order to override the ability? 600 like Teleport: Superior, or some other amount?