Zentraedi Gnerl fighter (REF refit)

[Jefffar]

We have, in the RPG, the explicit example of a Zentraedi mecha being fit with a human scale cockpit IMU style. So it is certainly possible to do so with a Gnerl as well.

Nobody's saying it's not possible, man. We're saying it's not an expedient/viable solution to a small craft shortage following the 1st Robotech War because humanity would have their work cut out for them adapting it with their (at the time) more limited understanding of the technology.

Yes, but if a bunch of rednecks can run a Female Power Armour off of a Valkyrie cockpit grafted onto the front of it, the UEDF with access to actual mecha production and maintenance facilities can quickly re-jig a Gnerl to a human sized control configuration and make several of them while waiting for a proper purpose built fighter to be developed and its production brought up to speed.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes, but if a bunch of rednecks can run a Female Power Armour off of a Valkyrie cockpit grafted onto the front of it, the UEDF with access to actual mecha production and maintenance facilities can quickly re-jig a Gnerl to a human sized control configuration and make several of them while waiting for a proper purpose built fighter to be developed and its production brought up to speed.

I'm not sure it's really fair to call the people with advanced mechanical skills on Earth "rednecks" during the Invid occupation... plenty of 'em were/are professionally trained mechanics (like Jim/Lunk) from the military. IMUs are, per the RPG, unreliable at best due to their improvised nature. What's being posited here is that the UEG, at a much lower level of technical proficiency and lacking resources due to the annihilation of Earth's surface, would be able to analyze a completely unknown craft, make extensive modifications to its control system, and put it to work in a capacity it was never designed for with minimal difficulty.

That wouldn't be smooth sailing at the best of times, and they certainly wouldn't enjoy the decades of additional expertise that the mechanics of the 3rd Robotech War era had.

[ShadowLogan]

Nobody's saying it's not possible, man. We're saying it's not an expedient/viable solution to a small craft shortage following the 1st Robotech War because humanity would have their work cut out for them adapting it with their (at the time) more limited understanding of the technology.

And it would be foolish for humanity to simply scrap the Gnerl's while they wait for the new lines (old or new designs) to come on line and production in sufficient numbers to fill the gap. The effort would be at best a stop-gap, but could be done far faster than the alternatives.

The hurdles of interfacing may not be as extensive as you think given:
-the Zentreadi may already have done the work for humans given Ep20 (Paradise Lost), we see the Spies operating a Regult at human-size stations with full-size controls/displays visible at ~11:27 & ~11:44. So unless HG decides those two consistent shots are an AE, the UEDF would have a leg up for adapting giant Zentreadi controls for humans and we don't know how extensive such adapters are for the Zentreadi mecha inventory (humans can learn Zentreadi language).

-Humans do have human-scale interfaces on Breetai's ship post FoA, indicating they have some experience with integration. We see Lisa, Claudia, and Exedore operating said work stations on the bridge. This would indicate they worked out interfaces with Zentreadi systems within the time frame between Ep27 and Ep30 (2-2.5years) even ignoring the boost Ep20's Regult hardware could give.

[Seto Kaiba]

And it would be foolish for humanity to simply scrap the Gnerl's while they wait for the new lines (old or new designs) to come on line and production in sufficient numbers to fill the gap. The effort would be at best a stop-gap, but could be done far faster than the alternatives.

True, but only if there were a sufficient number of Gnerl units available to use... the series makes rather a meal of Zentradi losses being near-total when Dolza's fortress went up. Breetai's ship is literally the only ship shown to be operating YEARS after the event, and the only operational Zentradi mecha we ever witness are the handful of Regult and Glaug units that'd been seized by the Zentradi malcontents. I don't think we ever see any Gnerls after the fact, except as wreckage. You'd need working units in good condition to convert from, otherwise it'd just be more effective to build new planes entirely.

Of course, come to think of it, it'd probably also be much more expedient to stick trusted Zentradi pilots in those Gnerls... that way you wouldn't need any adaptation at all, or to take the limited number of trained pilots off the existing craft and have them learn how to fly a Gnerl, when there were already more conventional alternatives only a year or so away from entering service.

The hurdles of interfacing may not be as extensive as you think given:
-the Zentreadi may already have done the work for humans given Ep20 (Paradise Lost), we see the Spies operating a Regult at human-size stations with full-size controls/displays visible at ~11:27 & ~11:44.

True, but that's a Regult... and they didn't do anything fancy with it. They didn't change its operational role, or fit it with any kind of ejectable cockpit module, as it being discussed here. The scale of things rather rules out what's being talked about here anyway, as those shots prove.

-Humans do have human-scale interfaces on Breetai's ship post FoA, indicating they have some experience with integration.

On one ship, and you'll notice that those consoles don't appear to actually OPERATE anything... the Zentradi crew do the actual work.

[ShadowLogan]

True, but only if there were a sufficient number of Gnerl units available to use... the series makes rather a meal of Zentradi losses being near-total when Dolza's fortress went up. Breetai's ship is literally the only ship shown to be operating YEARS after the event, and the only operational Zentradi mecha we ever witness are the handful of Regult and Glaug units that'd been seized by the Zentradi malcontents. I don't think we ever see any Gnerls after the fact, except as wreckage. You'd need working units in good condition to convert from, otherwise it'd just be more effective to build new planes entirely.

Khyron has Gnerls in Ep36 during the attack on NMC allowing for the existence of other stockpiles.

True, but that's a Regult... and they didn't do anything fancy with it. They didn't change its operational role, or fit it with any kind of ejectable cockpit module, as it being discussed here. The scale of things rather rules out what's being talked about here anyway, as those shots prove.

Agree the example is from a Regult, but the mere existence of a Zentreadi example for the Regult system does allow for the possibility of it being compatible with Glaugs and Gnerls OR each mecha having their own version. Once converted for micronian use, it could be adapted for other roles and/or have additional features installed for any of the mecha.

To say that additional features and new roles can't be adopted is just plain silly. That isn't to say it would be easy, but it could still be done.

On one ship, and you'll notice that those consoles don't appear to actually OPERATE anything... the Zentradi crew do the actual work.

That it is on one ship is irrelevant, the point is that they have demonstrated that they can do the interface.

The only Zentreadi doing the actual work is a micronized Exedore (outside of Fold Operations) that is shown. Lisa and Claudia also have similar items at their station that Exedore appears to manipulate (Exedore is the one to call Rick to the bridge, he also starts Minmei's music playing and broadcasting).

[Seto Kaiba]

Agree the example is from a Regult, but the mere existence of a Zentreadi example for the Regult system does allow for the possibility of it being compatible with Glaugs and Gnerls OR each mecha having their own version. [...]

Yeah, but that's entirely beside the point. The point being made by myself and the others arguing that converting surplus Gnerls into human-scale fighters is not that it's not possible, it's that it's neither viable nor necessary as a substitute fighter in the short term. Converting dozens or hundreds of Gnerls, if there are even that many to be had, would require a substantial input of manpower, resources, and time that would have to be diverted away from the development of the new fighters that would replace those units anyway in fairly short order. In short, we're saying the survivors of the UEDF likely wouldn't bother, because it's a less efficient use of resources than finishing the new, purpose-built craft that the UEG had developed.

[ArmySGT.]

Agree the example is from a Regult, but the mere existence of a Zentreadi example for the Regult system does allow for the possibility of it being compatible with Glaugs and Gnerls OR each mecha having their own version. [...]

Yeah, but that's entirely beside the point. The point being made by myself and the others arguing that converting surplus Gnerls into human-scale fighters is not that it's not possible, it's that it's neither viable nor necessary as a substitute fighter in the short term. Converting dozens or hundreds of Gnerls, if there are even that many to be had, would require a substantial input of manpower, resources, and time that would have to be diverted away from the development of the new fighters that would replace those units anyway in fairly short order. In short, we're saying the survivors of the UEDF likely wouldn't bother, because it's a less efficient use of resources than finishing the new, purpose-built craft that the UEG had developed.

Prototypes, with a few rare examples, take many, many years to get to Model 0 trial production runs....... The mission to Tirol probably only progressed because after 17 years they finally had enough of the newer mecha to make a go at it........

So a micronian sized capsule for a pilot and electronics warfare officer is to resource consuming and labor intensive to go ahead with. However, multiple prototypes of veritechs needing to be functional in not one but three configurations is going to be simpler..........

[Seto Kaiba]

Prototypes, with a few rare examples, take many, many years to get to Model 0 trial production runs [...]

Well, it's certainly true that most development programs take years or even decades to produce a viable, mass production craft, this does not hold true for the Robotech universe (or its OSM primogenitor, Macross). The VF-1 (RT Ver.) went from program start to the start of mass production in just five years (Feb 2002 to March 2007). Macross made the development interval slightly longer (Feb 2002 to Dec 2008), but the development period was nevertheless quite short, and the average development cycle seems to have been about 6-7 years, with only a few significant outliers (such as the VF-25 from Macross Frontier).

Spoiler:

Table of Development Cycle Times
VF-0 Phoenix: 2/2002 - 12/2004 (2 years)
VF-1 Valkyrie: 2/2002 - 12/2008 (6 years)
VF-4 Lightning III: 2005 - 2012 (7 years)
VF-5 ???: 2009 - 2015 (6 years)
VF-9 Cutlass: 2018-2022 (4 years)
VF-11 Thunderbolt: 2022 - 2030 (8 years)
VF-14 Vampire: 2025 - 2028 (3 years)
VF-17 Nightmare: 2026 - 2035 (9 years)
VF-19 Excalibur: 2034 - 2041 (7 years)
VF-22 Sturmvogel II: 2034 - 2042 (8 years)
VF-24 Evolution: 2040 - 2057 (17 years)
VF-25: 2057 - 2059 (2 years*)
VF-27: 2057 - 2059 (2 years*)
VF-5000 Star Mirage: 2011 - 2020 (9 years)
VA-110 Variable Glaug: 2014 - 2018 (4 years)
VF-171 Nightmare Plus: 2041 - 2050 (9 years)

Average: ~6.5 years

Units marked * are locally produced derivatives of the VF-24, so while their individual development time was roughly only two years, they benefited from the 17 year development cycle of the VF-24.

Based on the Robotech limited comic "From the Stars", even the Alpha was no exception to this trend. The VF-X-4's development (in RT) seems to have set the record for speed... from zero to trial production in just three years.

As complex as variable craft are, it's likely that the design phase for a non-transformable fighter from the post-1RW period would have been similarly accelerated... which would explain why they were rolling out new fighters like the Sylphid or the Falcon II within just a year or two of the Battle of New Macross City. The UEG had its hands full with a lot of development programs after the war... the VF-X-4, VF-X-6, Falcon II, Sylphid, Conbat, etc. Adapting Gnerls would've been a costly and wasteful distraction at best, setting back more far-reaching programs that would have been preemptively earmarked to be the Gnerl's replacement.

(As a side note, Gnerls don't seem to have been used by the UN Spacy in the years following the first Space War from the original Macross universe either. Possibly because mass production of VF-1s resumed at orbital facilities, followed by the introduction of the VF-4A just two years after the bombardment. The UN did continue to use other Zentradi mecha in its forces... particularly the Queadluun-Rau, which was so beloved by the top brass that they ordered the capture of that unit's factory satellite and the subsequent development of an improved model.)

The mission to Tirol probably only progressed because after 17 years they finally had enough of the newer mecha to make a go at it........

As far as we've been shown, the mission to Tirol proceeded when it did because work had only just finished on the SDF-3 itself... it had little or nothing to do with mecha development. Depending on how events unfolded in the vague, nebulous, and un-depicted canon version of the Pioneer mission, the Alpha was already in limited or mass production when the fleet launched in 2022, the Beta had progressed to a working prototype, and they'd already had many of the designs that we'd seen in the Masters War for years.

However, multiple prototypes of veritechs needing to be functional in not one but three configurations is going to be simpler..........

Well, yes... but the VF is going to be more versatile, and as the centerpiece of Earth's military strategy it's going to get a LOT more emphasis put on it. By 2015, the UEG had already had a viable test flight unit for the YF-4 for some time, that was flying at the same time as the VF-X-6 test plane.

[ShadowLogan]

The point being made by myself and the others arguing that converting surplus Gnerls into human-scale fighters is not that it's not possible, it's that it's neither viable nor necessary as a substitute fighter in the short term. Converting dozens or hundreds of Gnerls, if there are even that many to be had, would require a substantial input of manpower, resources, and time that would have to be diverted away from the development of the new fighters that would replace those units anyway in fairly short order. In short, we're saying the survivors of the UEDF likely wouldn't bother, because it's a less efficient use of resources than finishing the new, purpose-built craft that the UEG had developed.

The question really is does the uEDF believe it can afford to wait for those new purpose built designs? I don't think they believe they can given statements about needing as many space cruisers as they can lay their hands on (Ep29) and need for continued production of pods at the RFS (Ep31) in 2013.

The Gnerls (and other Z-mecha) are basically sitting there gathering dust. There is also a shortage of mecha and a pressing need for them. The amount of effort spent to put those mecha into human-sized operator hands does appear to be minimal given the Zentreadi can provide the hardware. Hardly an inefficient use of resources given pressing need. It is unlikely humans are just going to abandon Zentreadi derilicts, so some salvage effort would be underway to recover what they can make use of allowing further optimization of resources.

If the Zentreadi who went with the uEEF are using Zentraedi mecha, it makes more sense to micronize them from a resource standpoint and convert the mecha for a micronian crew. It is highly doubtful a giant Zentreadi uses less resources than a human/micronized-Z. Micronization would also work against segregated ships based on giant/non-giant status. It probably provides a safer work environment to.

[ArmySGT.]

Prototypes, with a few rare examples, take many, many years to get to Model 0 trial production runs [...]

Well, it's certainly true that most development programs take years or even decades to produce a viable, mass production craft, this does not hold true for the Robotech universe (or its OSM primogenitor, Macross). The VF-1 (RT Ver.) went from program start to the start of mass production in just five years (Feb 2002 to March 2007). Macross made the development interval slightly longer (Feb 2002 to Dec 2008), but the development period was nevertheless quite short, and the average development cycle seems to have been about 6-7 years, with only a few significant outliers (such as the VF-25 from Macross Frontier).

Spoiler:

Table of Development Cycle Times
VF-0 Phoenix: 2/2002 - 12/2004 (2 years)
VF-1 Valkyrie: 2/2002 - 12/2008 (6 years)
VF-4 Lightning III: 2005 - 2012 (7 years)
VF-5 ???: 2009 - 2015 (6 years)
VF-9 Cutlass: 2018-2022 (4 years)
VF-11 Thunderbolt: 2022 - 2030 (8 years)
VF-14 Vampire: 2025 - 2028 (3 years)
VF-17 Nightmare: 2026 - 2035 (9 years)
VF-19 Excalibur: 2034 - 2041 (7 years)
VF-22 Sturmvogel II: 2034 - 2042 (8 years)
VF-24 Evolution: 2040 - 2057 (17 years)
VF-25: 2057 - 2059 (2 years*)
VF-27: 2057 - 2059 (2 years*)
VF-5000 Star Mirage: 2011 - 2020 (9 years)
VA-110 Variable Glaug: 2014 - 2018 (4 years)
VF-171 Nightmare Plus: 2041 - 2050 (9 years)

Average: ~6.5 years

Units marked * are locally produced derivatives of the VF-24, so while their individual development time was roughly only two years, they benefited from the 17 year development cycle of the VF-24.

Based on the Robotech limited comic "From the Stars", even the Alpha was no exception to this trend. The VF-X-4's development (in RT) seems to have set the record for speed... from zero to trial production in just three years.

As complex as variable craft are, it's likely that the design phase for a non-transformable fighter from the post-1RW period would have been similarly accelerated... which would explain why they were rolling out new fighters like the Sylphid or the Falcon II within just a year or two of the Battle of New Macross City. The UEG had its hands full with a lot of development programs after the war... the VF-X-4, VF-X-6, Falcon II, Sylphid, Conbat, etc. Adapting Gnerls would've been a costly and wasteful distraction at best, setting back more far-reaching programs that would have been preemptively earmarked to be the Gnerl's replacement.

(As a side note, Gnerls don't seem to have been used by the UN Spacy in the years following the first Space War from the original Macross universe either. Possibly because mass production of VF-1s resumed at orbital facilities, followed by the introduction of the VF-4A just two years after the bombardment. The UN did continue to use other Zentradi mecha in its forces... particularly the Queadluun-Rau, which was so beloved by the top brass that they ordered the capture of that unit's factory satellite and the subsequent development of an improved model.)

The mission to Tirol probably only progressed because after 17 years they finally had enough of the newer mecha to make a go at it........

As far as we've been shown, the mission to Tirol proceeded when it did because work had only just finished on the SDF-3 itself... it had little or nothing to do with mecha development. Depending on how events unfolded in the vague, nebulous, and un-depicted canon version of the Pioneer mission, the Alpha was already in limited or mass production when the fleet launched in 2022, the Beta had progressed to a working prototype, and they'd already had many of the designs that we'd seen in the Masters War for years.

However, multiple prototypes of veritechs needing to be functional in not one but three configurations is going to be simpler..........

Well, yes... but the VF is going to be more versatile, and as the centerpiece of Earth's military strategy it's going to get a LOT more emphasis put on it. By 2015, the UEG had already had a viable test flight unit for the YF-4 for some time, that was flying at the same time as the VF-X-6 test plane.

So the UEG decides to wait 6.5 years for an untested prototype....... another year probably two for enough Block 0 production run units to then hold crew qualifications, then another year to hold trials and wargames to determine that the Block 0 units perform to specifications.......

So the UEG waits 8.5 to 9.5 years for an untested unit, because a cockpit conversion using technology they already understand, makes a Gnerl refit in the interim period to expensive?

Unsatisfactory explanation.

[taalismn]

Then again, remember that desperate times lead to desperate solutions, no matter how bad.
The nascent Israeli air force, post WW2, for example, bought Avia S-199s from Czechoslovakia....The Avia S-199 was a Messerschmitt 109 airframe powered by a Junkers bomber engine. The handling characteristics of the Avia S-199 have been described politely as 'murderous', with so much torque that takeoffs and landings were exercises in not flipping into the ground. Yet the IAF bought them. Why? Because they were cheap and available, the Czechs having intact factories for the fighter airframes and the bomber engines, but not for fighter engines or bomber airframes. The IAF bought them and soldiered on, because there were few other options(there was an arms embargo in their way), and so Israeli pilots had to wrestle with their machines and take the occasional spill, accept the casualties, and do the best with what they had.
The post-Rain situation is worse; there's still active Zentraedi malcontents and loyalists running around, and most of Earth's industrial infrastructure has been glassed. And there's a pressing need for SOMETHING to plug the air support/patrol gaps.
As bad as a Gnerl conversion might be, handled by regional mechanics with little of the SDF-1 complement's training, I could see them being lofted anyway, at least until Earth's own industries got rebuilt enough to start pumping out the next generation of ground-up designed Terran mecha and fighters.

[Seto Kaiba]

The question really is does the uEDF believe it can afford to wait for those new purpose built designs?

Perhaps it might be wiser to ask the more important question... do they have a shortage of small craft WRT the number of trained pilots they have available in their badly depleted forces? No allusions are made to any sort of shortage of fighters and ground warfare units designed for standard humans.

I don't think they believe they can given statements about needing as many space cruisers as they can lay their hands on (Ep29) and need for continued production of pods at the RFS (Ep31) in 2013.

Well, the explanation for their needing as many ships as they can lay hands on is fairly obvious... they were launching their first, advance reconnaissance operations ahead of the Pioneer Expedition (mentioned in the timeline), and naturally there's going to be a requirement for ships to do so, and more to replace those that ARE being sent to maintain the defenses that the United Earth Forces were still rebuilding around Earth. Pods, well, that may also be an obvious answer... you have an inordinately large number of Zentradi who are failing to fit into a life without war, so what's the fastest solution to get the potential dissidents what they want? Draft them into the Expeditionary Forces as specialist troops... which seems, in the Prelude limited comic, to be exactly what they did.

Hardly an inefficient use of resources given pressing need.

The pressing need in question is never elaborated on... though, in context, it seems extremely unlikely that the need was based on a shortage of human-scale craft. More likely, it was a shortage of units that could be used by Zentradi forces that'd allied themselves to the UEG.

It is unlikely humans are just going to abandon Zentreadi derilicts, so some salvage effort would be underway to recover what they can make use of allowing further optimization of resources.

's pretty likely based on the show, since we see they're perfectly content to let Zentradi wreckage rust out and become a part of the landscape. The ONLY salvage operations we're ever told about is based on scrapping Zentradi starships for the valuable drive systems that humanity couldn't build themselves with any reliability.

So the UEG decides to wait 6.5 years for an untested prototype....... another year probably two for enough Block 0 production run units to then hold crew qualifications, then another year to hold trials and wargames to determine that the Block 0 units perform to specifications.......

As I've mentioned previously, one of the significant problems with your positions is that you're assuming that things must be done the same way, and at the same pace, as they are in the real world. 6.5 years is the average in the OSM, and fits the Robotech universe closely enough as well, but in both cases there were craft that were already in mass production at just a few years after the bombardment. For Macross, it was the Block 6 and later VF-1 Valkyrie and the VF-4A. For Robotech, it was the Falcon II and Sylphid non-variable fighters, and quite probably a number of others that were not covered in the Infopedia or RPG (like Carpenter's fighter).

So the UEG waits 8.5 to 9.5 years for an untested unit, because a cockpit conversion using technology they already understand, makes a Gnerl refit in the interim period to expensive?

You may have seriously misunderstood that table of times... that's not, as you interpreted, the time from the start of any given development program to the first prototype. Those times are the start of development to early mass production* of those designs and their adoption by the military. Testing times are included in those numbers.

In the specific case of the United Earth Gov't forces in Robotech, they had a final test article for what would be the VF-4 just two years after the bombardment, and were conducting flight tests on another that started after the VF-X-4's development a year after that. Within three years, the UEG had at least one new model of fighter already well into mass production... very probably several units, considering they were launching long-distance recon forces into space in 2016.

* Block 1 or later.

Then again, remember that desperate times lead to desperate solutions, no matter how bad.

But does this qualify as that particular type of desperate times? The UEG is not shown to be dealing with a shortage of fighter aircraft so much as a shortage of manpower after the near-annihilation of the species...

The post-Rain situation is worse; there's still active Zentraedi malcontents and loyalists running around, and most of Earth's industrial infrastructure has been glassed. And there's a pressing need for SOMETHING to plug the air support/patrol gaps.

You're ASSUMING there's a pressing need. The show doesn't indicate there is, and they seem to have enough VF-1s left that they don't need to use anything else... and with new fighters coming into service in fairly short order, why bother to adapt an enemy unit that'd potentially require as much work to adapt as building a new plane?

[taalismn]

[

Then again, remember that desperate times lead to desperate solutions, no matter how bad.

But does this qualify as that particular type of desperate times? The UEG is not shown to be dealing with a shortage of fighter aircraft so much as a shortage of manpower after the near-annihilation of the species...

The post-Rain situation is worse; there's still active Zentraedi malcontents and loyalists running around, and most of Earth's industrial infrastructure has been glassed. And there's a pressing need for SOMETHING to plug the air support/patrol gaps.

You're ASSUMING there's a pressing need. The show doesn't indicate there is, and they seem to have enough VF-1s left that they don't need to use anything else... and with new fighters coming into service in fairly short order, why bother to adapt an enemy unit that'd potentially require as much work to adapt as building a new plane?

Damn straight I'm assuming, because I'm looking at the situation from the POV of somebody who's survived the Rain of Death, not somebody with access to a crystal ball in the form of a DVD player loaded with the next story arc and foreknowledge of when the Second Robotech War happens.

Because the Earth's just been through ONE major scourging. Yeah, we won, but with a fully-populated planet, Grand Cannon WMD, and global infrastructure and Earth STILL got pasted bad. Another victory like that, and Earth is FINISHED. And even with the intel provided by Breetai and other turned Zentraedi, there's no assurance that Earth's got a breathing spell before the next attack comes. And in the chaos of the Rain of Death, who got a complete census of how many enemy units were involved? Where'd they go? Could there still be reserve fleets out there? Stranglers? Revenge fleets on the way? Even with the rebel Zentraedi providing overwatch, the UEDF's gotta be feeling a little naked against the possibility of another attack with their resources still on the mend. THey'll want to build up something like the old air/space defense coverage and fast, for their own peace of mind.


I'm not saying converted Gnerls are going to be a major part of the defense effort(dismantled and unmanned Gnerls, maybe) but somebody in the UEDF's going to have drawn up plans and there's going to be at least an attempt to use some repurposed hardware as a stopgap.

[Seto Kaiba]

Damn straight I'm assuming, because I'm looking at the situation from the POV of somebody who's survived the Rain of Death, not somebody with access to a crystal ball in the form of a DVD player loaded with the next story arc and foreknowledge of when the Second Robotech War happens.

That's a fun way of looking at it...

Because the Earth's just been through ONE major scourging. Yeah, we won, but with a fully-populated planet, Grand Cannon WMD, and global infrastructure and Earth STILL got pasted bad. [...] even with the intel provided by Breetai and other turned Zentraedi, there's no assurance that Earth's got a breathing spell before the next attack comes. [...]

Therein lies the problem. Even though Earth had been through all that, the people at the top levels of the military and the government (if the two could even be said to be separate at this point) seem to be of the opinion that they have loads of time to prepare AND that they've seized the initiative after destroying the Zentradi fleet. Look at what they decisions the top brass made in the immediate aftermath of the war. They clearly weren't concerned about being attacked, as they put their efforts into rebuilding the planet's infrastructure and preparing to launch an expedition to Tirol instead. Even when a Zentradi insurrection cost them the ship they'd built for it, they didn't rush out or seem particularly worried about reprisals from the Robotech Masters. They just built a new ship (the SDF-3) and carried on, and even when they launched it, they were vocally unconcerned about the chances of Earth being attacked by anything its minimal defense forces couldn't sort out. (A really bad choice on their part... but hey, nobody said they were RIGHT to be so louche about it.)

And in the chaos of the Rain of Death, who got a complete census of how many enemy units were involved? Where'd they go? Could there still be reserve fleets out there? Stranglers? Revenge fleets on the way?

All told, they seemed pretty confident that they were in no danger... and that they had a clear run at Tirol now that the Zentradi were no longer a threat. Perhaps this was justified, considering how easily they defeated the factory satellite's garrison force (well, "Annihilated" is the word they used).

Even with the rebel Zentraedi providing overwatch, the UEDF's gotta be feeling a little naked against the possibility of another attack with their resources still on the mend. THey'll want to build up something like the old air/space defense coverage and fast, for their own peace of mind.

That seems logical if you look at it from a real-world perspective, but it doesn't tally with what we see in Robotech. The UEDF seems content to operate their fleet of VF-1s and other human-built craft until they can introduce entirely new human-built craft a few years after the bombardment. Using repurposed Zentradi hardware doesn't seem to even be on their proverbial radar.

[taalismn]

They were using Breetai's flagship as a power-projection carrier, enough that they made modifications to it for micronian use. For all we know, they may have been using other smaller vessels, similarly modified to accommodate micronians, in limited capacity as orbiting space habitats, early warning stations, and mecha bases. They'd sure beat any ARMD rebuilds, at least until updated vessels could begin rolling off the assembly lines.
Now admittedly we didn't see Zentraedi-UEDF assets used in the suppression of the malcontents(as in tracking Khyron from orbit and maybe nuking him from same before he could pose a threat to New Macross City), but we're only seeing a limited view of the overall world situation, especially with the lens following the main characters around(we don't see, for example, sudden intercuts showing us what Ivan Russian, Johnny Mongolia, or Bert Australia are doing, while Lynn Kyle's honking off Rick Hunter or Khyron's chewing scenery for his troops) .

[Seto Kaiba]

They were using Breetai's flagship as a power-projection carrier, enough that they made modifications to it for micronian use. For all we know, they may have been using other smaller vessels, similarly modified to accommodate micronians, in limited capacity as orbiting space habitats, early warning stations, and mecha bases.

Breetai's ship is the only operational Zentradi ship ever seen or mentioned, and the UEDF/UEEF is described as parting out any remaining Zentradi ships (operable or not) to obtain their fold engines. The only known ships that they were using in the aftermath of the bombardment were Breetai's ship and the Tokugawa-class once they were ready in that same period where new fighters were coming out.

(we don't see, for example, sudden intercuts showing us what Ivan Russian, Johnny Mongolia, or Bert Australia are doing, while Lynn Kyle's honking off Rick Hunter or Khyron's chewing scenery for his troops) .

Probably because there's not a lot of interesting dialogue to be had from people who've been reduced to a fine particulate ash and scattered around the stratosphere. With the only survivors being, in the RT version, the 70,000 civilians and crew on the SDF-1 (according to multiple episodes), that doesn't make for a huge population to miss out on. Admittedly, that number was substantially bigger in the original Macross, but Macross also DID show what was going on elsewhere in works such as The Lost Two Years... which is amusing if you care about postwar human culture or what Hikaru and the cast were doing in the timeskip.

[taalismn]

I take a more open view of the world, given that the original RT story was thrown together without thought of how it would be nitpicked in detail by obsessive fans, armchair generals, techno-nerds, and self-trained psychohistorians. It just had to be better, if only by a degree or so, than the Saturday morning tripe Americans were more used to(except Johnny Quest...you don't dare dis Johnny Quest).

[Seto Kaiba]

I take a more open view of the world, given that the original RT story was thrown together without thought of how it would be nitpicked in detail by obsessive fans, armchair generals, techno-nerds, and self-trained psychohistorians.

That's an awfully charitable view of it... in truth, it wasn't just thrown together without a thought for how it could some day end up being nitpicked by fans, it was tossed together in such a huge hurry that from about episode 38 on that the staff on the project were sleeping in the studio hallways and working to schedules so tight that checking each episode's contents to ensure consistency between episodes was entirely out of the question. (In a lot of ways, this actually worked to the staff's advantage, as it prevented them from following through on their plans to dumb the component shows down into another toy commercial for the grade school crowd. It didn't save the show from getting plowed under by Transformers though.)

On the practical side, that's why they chose to base as much of the official canon as they could on the OSM... once they'd got around to establishing one 15 years after the fact. 's why I tend to patch the Robotech material with the OSM to ensure consistency, though in this case it wouldn't lend any help to the idea of the UN/UE forces using Zentradi mecha... a thing that humanity basically didn't do in the originals, except with certain high-end units.

[jedi078]

They were using Breetai's flagship as a power-projection carrier, enough that they made modifications to it for micronian use. For all we know, they may have been using other smaller vessels, similarly modified to accommodate micronians, in limited capacity as orbiting space habitats, early warning stations, and mecha bases. They'd sure beat any ARMD rebuilds, at least until updated vessels could begin rolling off the assembly lines.
Now admittedly we didn't see Zentraedi-UEDF assets used in the suppression of the malcontents(as in tracking Khyron from orbit and maybe nuking him from same before he could pose a threat to New Macross City), but we're only seeing a limited view of the overall world situation, especially with the lens following the main characters around(we don't see, for example, sudden intercuts showing us what Ivan Russian, Johnny Mongolia, or Bert Australia are doing, while Lynn Kyle's honking off Rick Hunter or Khyron's chewing scenery for his troops) .

I too follow the same common sense approach. Personally I think many more people survived the Zent bombardment then either depicted in Macross or Robotech. The key factor that point to this is the shear size of the ASC and UEEF. Those troops has to come from somewhere.

The ASC had a large fleet (I am sure somebody counted all the ships seen on screen) and had several 'Corps' sized military units. Each of which would be between 20,000 to 45,000 troops.

As for the UEEF they too had a sizable military force as seen in New Generation. We have evidence of UEEF ships leaving Earth as early as 2015 (Carpenters ship) as either scouts to recon the Robotech Masters empire, or as part of a colony fleet, possible both. Regardless of what some naysayer(s) may say, the UEEF would have had to establish colonies to be able to build up the forces seen re-taking earth in New Generation.

[taalismn]

Using the SDF-1 and civilians as the largest remaining single Terran remnant population of the Rain of Death, plus turned Zentraedi, you don't get Southern Cross...you get Macross 2, with what looks like a single large city as the center of society, and a Zentran conehead extolling the virtures of culture on public television.

[jedi078]

Using the SDF-1 and civilians as the largest remaining single Terran remnant population of the Rain of Death, plus turned Zentraedi, you don't get Southern Cross...you get Macross 2, with what looks like a single large city as the center of society, and a Zentran conehead extolling the virtures of culture on public television.

...and this is one clear example that Robotech and Macross are two separate universes. As a result one cannot use post zent bombardment population data from Macross and use it to explain the world population in Robotech.

[glitterboy2098]

actually, with Seto's scenario, the macross OSM would be a step in the right direction, because macross OSM had other survivors. Seto is ignoring the many signs of additional survivors (like fully intact and inhabitied cities only a year after the rain of death.. that aren't new macross and it's 70,000 people), and he's taking a line by general leonard that references the people of Monument city (which would have been almost all new macross city refugees) and making it fit the entire planet despite the obvious context.

[Seto Kaiba]

The key factor that point to this is the shear size of the ASC and UEEF. Those troops has to come from somewhere.

There are actually rather less of them than the RPG's stats make out to be... I mean, look at RTSC, where those massive Ikazuchi-class carriers are only launching like two-dozen fighters instead of almost a hundred and fifty, or how they show in the series that most ships have a command crew so small that Star Trek offers to loan them redshirts. The Garfish is shown to have a bridge only capable of seating four... and even the colossal SDF-4 tops out at like seven bridge crew to operate the entire ship.

The ASC had a large fleet (I am sure somebody counted all the ships seen on screen) and had several 'Corps' sized military units. Each of which would be between 20,000 to 45,000 troops.

As you know, I tend to follow the OSM line a lot, and it actually works rather neatly with the given survivor totals given in Robotech's series. They just use "Corps" to mean "an administrative grouping of troops within an armed force with a common function", rather than as a formation of 20k+ troops. The org. chart for the Southern Cross Army from This is Animation 10: Southern Cross shows that the Alpha Tactics Armored Corps, for instance, consists of just 15 squads... totaling only about 400 people. If the UEDF's branches are that small almost 20 years after the 1st war ended, then they wouldn't need to worry about adapting Gnerl units or other Zentradi mecha because of a shortage of qualified pilots.

As for the UEEF they too had a sizable military force as seen in New Generation. We have evidence of UEEF ships leaving Earth as early as 2015 (Carpenters ship) as either scouts to recon the Robotech Masters empire, or as part of a colony fleet, possible both.

Officially, the ships sent out prior to 2022 were advance reconnaissance forces scouting ahead of the Expeditionary Force's fleet. That much is mentioned in the Robotech.com timeline. The UEEF fleet's actually not all that big, though. The series indicates that the fleet is the main UEEF force, and that doesn't even hit 400 ships. Factoring in the losses that we see in the New Generation and Prelude and all, the UEEF at its peak had about 500 ships... almost three-quarters of which were Garfish-class*.

Using the SDF-1 and civilians as the largest remaining single Terran remnant population of the Rain of Death, plus turned Zentraedi, you don't get Southern Cross...you get Macross 2, with what looks like a single large city as the center of society, and a Zentran conehead extolling the virtures of culture on public television.

Sorry, but that's incorrect... though perhaps forgivably so, since Palladium did such a terrible job with research when they wrote the Macross II RPG.

What you get when you have just the SDF-1's crew and civilians as survivors is Robotech, because that's what they bloody well say in the show... multiple times, at that. To get Macross II's setting, you'd need to have over 1 million survivors in total, from the Macross, from Grand Cannons III and V, and from colonies in orbit and on the moon. You'd also need to have had 40+ years of extrasolar colonization using mass-produced Macross-class ships, ubiquitous usage of Zentradi ships and technology by the Earth forces, and direct, traceable evolution of Earth's military hardware based upon lessons learned.

...and this is one clear example that Robotech and Macross are two separate universes.

As painfully misinformed as taalismn is about Macross II, the fact remains that while they two might nominally exist as separate universes, Robotech defines itself by ripping off as much as it can from its primogenitor, Macross, and was created for the sole purpose of promoting Macross in the US.

As a result one cannot use post zent bombardment population data from Macross and use it to explain the world population in Robotech.

Which just goes to show that you should always check your facts before you attempt to admonish someone. If we were using the population data from Macross, we'd be talking about a million or more survivors. That 70,000 figure comes exclusively from the dialogue of the Robotech television series, and is confirmed in multiple episodes spanning two of the Robotech sagas.

Seto is ignoring the many signs of additional survivors (like fully intact and inhabitied cities only a year after the rain of death.. that aren't new macross and it's 70,000 people), [...]

It was never stipulated that all 70,000 people stayed in New Macross City in Robotech, and the cities we do see after the timeskip are shown to only have populations of a few hundred in total (when we see them out en masse). Also, in the episode, the time difference is explicitly said to be two years between "Force of Arms" and "Reconstruction Blues".

and he's taking a line by general leonard that references the people of Monument city (which would have been almost all new macross city refugees) and making it fit the entire planet [...]

I make that line fit the entire planet because it DOES fit the entire planet, corroborating earlier dialogue in the series which establishes that the only survivors were the handful aboard the SDF-1. It works out for later generations once you put an accurate number on the size of the military (which is nowhere near as big as popular perception would make it).

[jedi078]

The key factor that point to this is the shear size of the ASC and UEEF. Those troops has to come from somewhere.

There are actually rather less of them than the RPG's stats make out to be... I mean, look at RTSC, where those massive Ikazuchi-class carriers are only launching like two-dozen fighters instead of almost a hundred and fifty, or how they show in the series that most ships have a command crew so small that Star Trek offers to loan them redshirts. The Garfish is shown to have a bridge only capable of seating four... and even the colossal SDF-4 tops out at like seven bridge crew to operate the entire ship.

You’re not factoring in the fact that for every airframe there is a maintenance crew…..

You’re not factoring in the fact that while we only see a few people on the ‘bridge’ (which appears to be quite exposed) the ship would also have a Combat Information Center from which the ship is really run during combat.

You’re not factoring in the fact that the RPG stats (WE ARE talking about the RPG here) of those massive Ikazuchi-class carriers lists more mecha then we see launched on screen.

The ASC had a large fleet (I am sure somebody counted all the ships seen on screen) and had several 'Corps' sized military units. Each of which would be between 20,000 to 45,000 troops.

As you know, I tend to follow the OSM line a lot, and it actually works rather neatly with the given survivor totals given in Robotech's series. They just use "Corps" to mean "an administrative grouping of troops within an armed force with a common function", rather than as a formation of 20k+ troops. The org. chart for the Southern Cross Army from This is Animation 10: Southern Cross shows that the Alpha Tactics Armored Corps, for instance, consists of just 15 squads... totaling only about 400 people. If the UEDF's branches are that small almost 20 years after the 1st war ended, then they wouldn't need to worry about adapting Gnerl units or other Zentradi mecha because of a shortage of qualified pilots.

Sorry a ‘Corps’ sized formation is anywhere between 20,000-45,000 personnel. It seems to me that the people who put together the OSM didn't do their research. If they had they would have properly labeled the Alpha Tactics Armored Corps a battalion sized formation instead of a corps sized formation.

Now IIRC Dana’s unit had around 10-12 Hover tanks, and being led by a lowly Lieutenant it would be a platoon sized formation (oh and as an FYI squads are led by NCO’s not officers). There is our first indicator RIGHT there that those who did the organization chart for the Southern Cross Army were in error. You don’t give a boot LT command of a company sized formation. They do get command of platoon sized formations.

[Seto Kaiba]

You’re not factoring in the fact that for every airframe there is a maintenance crew…..

No, you're simply ASSUMING that's the case... the series certainly does not bear that out.

You’re not factoring in the fact that while we only see a few people on the ‘bridge’ (which appears to be quite exposed) the ship would also have a Combat Information Center from which the ship is really run during combat.

I sense a theme brewing... again, you're just assuming that is the case with no supporting evidence to speak of. RT is not obliged to do things the same way the real world does, and indeed often doesn't.

You’re not factoring in the fact that the RPG stats (WE ARE talking about the RPG here) of those massive Ikazuchi-class carriers lists more mecha then we see launched on screen.

You're right, I am not taking those particular parts of the RPG stats into account because, as you may have noticed, I've repeatedly pointed out that they are demonstrably BS.

Sorry a ‘Corps’ sized formation is anywhere between 20,000-45,000 personnel.

Like many terms in military organization, "corps" has more than one correct usage. The original creators are not wrong simply because you refuse to acknowledge that fact. The Marine Corps, for instance, might take exception to your definition. As a purely administrative grouping, there is no fixed size for a corps. The organizational division that shares the term but has a completely different application for it does have a fixed size.

Now IIRC Dana’s unit had around 10-12 Hover tanks, and being led by a lowly Lieutenant it would be a platoon sized formation (oh and as an FYI squads are led by NCO’s not officers).

At the risk of pointing out the painfully obvious, the 15th was not an infantry squad, it was a tank squadron... for which its size and its leadership are reasonably appropriate.

[Jefffar]

Actually the leadership of the 15th squadron was highly inappropriate as they were a company sized Armoured unit and should have been lead by a Captain or a Major. Dana could have (and should have) lead a troop (a platoon sized unit of 4 tanks). When the old CO got busted, the most senior of the 4 or 5 Lts in the Squadron should have assumed command until an appropriate commander was assigned rather than the green LT on her first day with the unit.

If there are only 15 Squadrons in ATAC it is indeed misnamed as it it more like a reinforced brigade or regiment in strength, but of course that also assumes that the OSM TO&E applies.

In the context of Robotech, things in the OSM not directly contradicted by the show can be generally be assumed to be true. However that doesn't make them universally so. The population levels question is one such example with the Macross 70 000 requiring a lot of mental gymnastics to provide for the populations and force sizes we see in the later shows and the RPG. It's much easier to assume that other surviving populations were around.

With more populations of both humans and zentradi around it is more reasonable to assume that at least some of them took to modifying Zentraedi mecha for human-sized crews. Did the UEDF themselves do it as a stop-gap while purpose built fighters were setting up in production? I'm not sure, bu it is certainly feasible for them to do so and likely a fair bit easier for them than others as they have access to some of the best human and Zentraedi minds, experience in integrating human and alien tech and the most advanced production facilities available.

[ShadowLogan]

Now IIRC Dana’s unit had around 10-12 Hover tanks,

A Total of 13 VHTs entered the Cityship in "The Trap" from the 15th and disolved into several groups:
2: Jordan, Simon
3: Dana, Louie, Bowie (released from jail)
3: Sean, 2 others (Cranston, and someone else)
5: Angelo, Road, and 3 others

Now Bowie was released and joined up late, so they might have had replacement in the mix and he would push the total higher than normal.

do they have a shortage of small craft WRT the number of trained pilots they have available in their badly depleted forces? No allusions are made to any sort of shortage of fighters and ground warfare units designed for standard humans.

Unknown. The question can also be asked if the Gnerl provides any advantages over existing human fighters (by 2E RPG):

In 2013 the Gnerl:
-would be the faster than existing human designs, and neglecting orbital-insertion faster than any airbreathing fighter available. This would allow the Gnerl to respond faster or be staged father away. The lack of VTOL may be an issue, but it is something that hasn't stopped any real world military.
-beam cannon while not as hard hitting as the projectile weapons, would allow it to stay in the game longer over the human fighters and has longer range. The SF-3A is the only exception with it's heavy beam cannons (ASC beam cannons are a joke in comparison to the Gnerl or SF-3A, and their projectile cannons aren't any better than the RDF).
-missile carriage fluctuates depending on the design, but is limited to SRM unlike the other human fighters.
-armor is a bit light in many comparison

The last two factors are comparing a stock Gnerl, and with modifications for a human crew could be overcome that it could be an all round superior platform to UEDF:RDF designs. And would even hold up to UEDF:ASC period (2029) and UEEF (2044). It's main draw back would be the Protoculture supply.

Pods, well, that may also be an obvious answer... you have an inordinately large number of Zentradi who are failing to fit into a life without war, so what's the fastest solution to get the potential dissidents what they want? Draft them into the Expeditionary Forces as specialist troops... which seems, in the Prelude limited comic, to be exactly what they did.

On the flip-side, there is no need to keep the Zentraedi as giants or to have them use their old mecha. We know of at least one example of a micronized Zentraedi being trained and issued human mecha circa 2011. And by the show (as opposed to PttSC) Zentraedi are not dissimilar in size to regular humans so would have no trouble squeezing in (as alluded to in the 2E RPG's backstory for the UEEF Bioroid).

Those ships are also going to need a force of mobile units (mecha) for force projection (most if not all ships carry some form of mecha to deploy), requiring mecha to go with those ships (they can't all be colonist transport, Gloval was looking to take the war to the Masters before it arrived at Earth).

's pretty likely based on the show, since we see they're perfectly content to let Zentradi wreckage rust out and become a part of the landscape. The ONLY salvage operations we're ever told about is based on scrapping Zentradi starships for the valuable drive systems that humanity couldn't build themselves with any reliability.

And yet by 2029 there is no evidence of any Zentreadi wreckage if we go by the show. That would indicate the cleanup/salvage effort we see in 2013 isn't anywhere near done. Or do you think that ~3years is enough time to salvage from all those ships that are supposed to be present.

At the very least the UEDF is going to want to secure stockpiles from falling into the hands of Macontents. And this doesn't even consider the individual states (not the UEG, but members and non-members) and mercenary organizations gathering up the Zentreadi mecha to use for their own purposes. As the reconstruction arc shows, the uEDF can't be everywhere to provide adequate security (Portland, New Detroit, Zarkpopolis (sp; "Broken Heart")) without calling in assistance.

[taalismn]

[

As painfully misinformed as taalismn is about Macross II, the fact remains that while they two might nominally exist as separate universes, Robotech defines itself by ripping off as much as it can from its primogenitor, Macross, and was created for the sole purpose of promoting Macross in the US. ).

In Macross 2 I've encountered nothing that suggests that Earth has extrasolar colonies(that's Macross Plus and follow-ons, which effectively constitute a THIRD Macross universe). I'm also seeing a far greater acknowledgment of the Zentran/Meltran contribution to the starting population numbers, leading to them making up a much larger(arguably in numbers, definitely in physical stature) presence in the reconstruction.

And Field Marshal Leonard's remarks? I'd take them with a grain of salt. He's a military man-turned-demagogue, and he's preaching to the troops, so he's most likely slanting his remarks to the dramatic. Nobody's going to publicly correct him, because he's the boss. Of course, if he made similar remarks in our modern society, he'd be publicly corrected and lumped with folks like Dan Quayle.

I'm painfully misinformed by virtue of having the avatar of Saturday Night Live William Shatner sitting over my shoulder ready to pounce if and when the inner geek takes possession of my body.

[jaymz]

and are implied or ordered to shrink down

That may be the case with any that remained behind on Earth but an assumption at best as it pertains to the UEEF. Why would you micronize them then in turn have to heavily modify the mecha they use in order for them to use them? Keeping them full sized (I think it is safe to say that the ability to supply them is not a problem with all the stuff that can be salvaged from downed vessels designed to sustain them). Now I would agree that once they are required to use Earth based mecha that micronization is a necessity but prior to that it seems to be more efficient to keep them full sized and not have to modify the mecha at all.

[taalismn]

and are implied or ordered to shrink down

That may be the case with any that remained behind on Earth but an assumption at best as it pertains to the UEEF. Why would you micronize them then in turn have to heavily modify the mecha they use in order for them to use them? Keeping them full sized (I think it is safe to say that the ability to supply them is not a problem with all the stuff that can be salvaged from downed vessels designed to sustain them). Now I would agree that once they are required to use Earth based mecha that micronization is a necessity but prior to that it seems to be more efficient to keep them full sized and not have to modify the mecha at all.

Depends how much the Zentraedi food and water supply machinery are dependent on Protoculture. If the Zentraedi ships are all powering down due to lack of Protoculture, long term it would be more efficient to use some Protoculture now to micronize them to a more logistically supportable size, and pocket the Protoculture savings for other military projects. The alternative is cultivating massive tracts of land and large numbers of stock animals to feed giant appetites(a full hog is less than a pork nugget to a full-sized Zentraedi).
If you CAN switch military non-essentials (as far as propulsion and armament go, food synthesis is of lower priority) to other forms of power(fission, fusion, solar-electric), keeping some of them going that way allows for supporting full-sized Zentraedi as well as using them to feed Terrans/micronians.
Admittedly, we don't see the Terrans forced into Protoculture rationing of any sort until Invid Invasion; they're pretty free with the stuff, so day to day operations-wise it doesn't seem an issue. But I imagine the bean-counters, looking at overall strategic supplies of the stuff, would be looking to conserve where they could.
The ideal situation the Terrans seem to be looking for is that the Zentraedi assimilate into micronian society. A micronized Zentraedi is easier to feed, socialize with, less likely to stomp somebody(accidentally or deliberately)) and easier to lock up if he does.

Yah..short term we already see the turned Zentraedi, using their own mecha, flying in support of the native Terran UEDF. Long term, the hope is, they get better mecha designed for them, or they micronize and learn how to use Terran mecha.
However, let's realistically assume a little bit of prejudice in the air. Parts of the UEG that can't get priority to mecha like VFs, will want to plug their TOE gaps until they do with Zentraedi mecha, If they don't have trustworthy-enough full-size Zentraedi pilots to fly them, they'll still want to put HUMAN pilots they can trust in available cockpits, so conversions would be attractive. Gnerls would be better than many older human aircraft they could get ahold of(or already have), as well as have space capability, so they're an attractive vehicle, even with their bigger supply needs(Zentraedi missiles, and larger hangars, for example).

[jaymz]

Yeah but those parts may just as apt to say we want nothing to do with Zentraedi at all. Let us remember they weren't exactly welcomed with fully open arms

[taalismn]

Yeah but those parts may just as apt to say we want nothing to do with Zentraedi at all. Let us remember they weren't exactly welcomed with fully open arms

Depends on the varying shades of prejudice/apartheid in society.
A region low on the list for available native-built mecha might still be free and open to the Zentraedi, but might protest what the mainstream UEG/UEDF regard as 'reasonable' security precautions with regards to Zentraedi. Or a local strongman who wants to retain autonomous control of his country and its resources, and fearing(rightly or wrongly) that those who covet them might to oust his regime or invade*(and maybe he has a rotten human rights record to boot) might want to offer generous terms to Zentraedi mercenaries.

*And remember, when you've got cheap/easy space capability, EVERYBODY'S open to assault from above.

[ArmySGT.]

and are implied or ordered to shrink down

That may be the case with any that remained behind on Earth but an assumption at best as it pertains to the UEEF. Why would you micronize them then in turn have to heavily modify the mecha they use in order for them to use them? Keeping them full sized (I think it is safe to say that the ability to supply them is not a problem with all the stuff that can be salvaged from downed vessels designed to sustain them). Now I would agree that once they are required to use Earth based mecha that micronization is a necessity but prior to that it seems to be more efficient to keep them full sized and not have to modify the mecha at all.

Assuming you can FEED them........ Their using 55 gallon drums as shot glasses......

[taalismn]

Assuming you can FEED them........ Their using 55 gallon drums as shot glasses......

Truly, the post -Rain of Death shopping scene belongs to CostCo.

[jaymz]

Assuming you can FEED them........ Their using 55 gallon drums as shot glasses......

Truly, the post -Rain of Death shopping scene belongs to CostCo.

[taalismn]

...or Buy n Large.

[jaymz]

Personally, again i don;t have them refit nothing in regards to Zentraedi mecha, but I DO have them design and field the old REF Pods along with the Striker so that when it comes time for those to enter service, the old ones just get recycled and their pilots micronized and assigned new mecha...

[ArmySGT.]

Personally I don't see refit Gnerls operating as traditional space superiority fighter.... More as Corvettes..... PT boats might be another example.... with a crew capsule... A pilot and electronic warfare officer station, lavatory, kitchenette (microwave, coffee pot, cooler, ration packs, and waste disposal) bunking for 4-6 crew... so two pilots, two EWOs, and two maintenance techs....

There is ample room for this without a 30-40 foot giant in a seated, semi reclined position..

Add 4-6 Long Range Missiles on external hardpoints, add 2-4 externally mounted and remotely operated Antimecha /antispace fighter positions.

You have a corvette that can keep up with fighter coverage (or out run them, and hit Zentraedi picket ships, or Invid Carriers....... Corvettes that can operate from a small resupply vessel while doing 72-96 hour missions in the asteroid belts. Corvettes that can be dropped off at a location and loiter for 72 hours in an ambush role.. There is a lot of room to use them.

[jaymz]

L/S - That does not however indicate they were all shrunk immediately but eventually. In the meantime they could just as easily have been kept large in order to use said Zentraedi mecha the best way possible. As they were intended to be used. As the series shows the Zentraedi were not all shrunk immediately. Breetai's ship is proof of that. Even Breetai himself isn't shrunk for several years.

[jedi078]

Actually the leadership of the 15th squadron was highly inappropriate as they were a company sized Armoured unit and should have been lead by a Captain or a Major. Dana could have (and should have) lead a troop (a platoon sized unit of 4 tanks). When the old CO got busted, the most senior of the 4 or 5 Lts in the Squadron should have assumed command until an appropriate commander was assigned rather than the green LT on her first day with the unit.

If there were 4 or 5 other officer's present to take command after Sean was busted down, I'd agree with you that the unit would be correctly considered a company sized unit. But there is only one officer present (Sean). This means that each group of 10-12 Hover tanks is really considered a platoon sized unit. We also have to look at the fact that a hover tank unit is a hybrid of armor and mecha infantry.

Now IIRC Dana’s unit had around 10-12 Hover tanks,

A Total of 13 VHTs entered the Cityship in "The Trap" from the 15th and disolved into several groups:
2: Jordan, Simon
3: Dana, Louie, Bowie (released from jail)
3: Sean, 2 others (Cranston, and someone else)
5: Angelo, Road, and 3 others

Thanks for the info.

[taalismn]

Personally I don't see refit Gnerls operating as traditional space superiority fighter.... More as Corvettes..... PT boats might be another example.... with a crew capsule... A pilot and electronic warfare officer station, lavatory, kitchenette (microwave, coffee pot, cooler, ration packs, and waste disposal) bunking for 4-6 crew... so two pilots, two EWOs, and two maintenance techs....

There is ample room for this without a 30-40 foot giant in a seated, semi reclined position..

Add 4-6 Long Range Missiles on external hardpoints, add 2-4 externally mounted and remotely operated Antimecha /antispace fighter positions.

You have a corvette that can keep up with fighter coverage (or out run them, and hit Zentraedi picket ships, or Invid Carriers....... Corvettes that can operate from a small resupply vessel while doing 72-96 hour missions in the asteroid belts. Corvettes that can be dropped off at a location and loiter for 72 hours in an ambush role.. There is a lot of room to use them.

Cut-off Tirolian colonies or outposts might kludge something like this up if they have the expertise and a lack of Zentraedi crew(or Bioroid Landing Craft/Corvettes).

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually the leadership of the 15th squadron was highly inappropriate as they were a company sized Armoured unit and should have been lead by a Captain or a Major. Dana could have (and should have) lead a troop (a platoon sized unit of 4 tanks).

Unlike a modern tank squadron, the 15th was made up of single-person vehicles... so it's only natural that the unit would have its organization scaled down somewhat. In truth, the impression I'm getting from the OSM publications I've found in recent months have led me to suspect their organization was modeled on Mobile Suit teams from Gundam... a sound possibility, considering that Southern Cross did draw VERY heavily on Gundam. Ranks are rather vague and did take some time for the RT writers to pin down in the Masters Saga, so this may simply be a gaffe on their part. (There's some terminology used in the original that suggest that the ATAC 15th Squad is considered more like an infantry platoon, organizationally... Charles is referred to as 小隊長 (Ko Taichou... literally "Platoon Leader")).

If there are only 15 Squadrons in ATAC it is indeed misnamed as it it more like a reinforced brigade or regiment in strength, but of course that also assumes that the OSM TO&E applies.

In the context of Robotech, things in the OSM not directly contradicted by the show can be generally be assumed to be true. However that doesn't make them universally so.

Thus far, all available evidence (especially from the RPG) suggests that the original source material's TO&E applies almost in full. The only noteworthy deviations thus far have been in the treatment of the specialist infantry units, and the Auroran's being identified as belonging to more branches of the service than just the Tactics Armored Space Corps. The organization of the α Tactics Armored Corps is small because, in both Robotech and the original Southern Cross, it's a branch of the service that was established recently on a sparsely populated world. In Southern Cross, it was because Glorie was a recently colonized world. In Robotech, it's because Earth's population was almost wiped out. In both cases, the Corps was presumably intended to grow considerably larger as the population rose.

The population levels question is one such example with the Macross 70 000 requiring a lot of mental gymnastics to provide for the populations and force sizes we see in the later shows and the RPG. It's much easier to assume that other surviving populations were around.

I know I've pointed this out before, but the 70,000 figure is not from the Macross OSM. It's from Robotech, and from TWO SEPARATE SAGAS at that. It's originally stated in the Macross Saga, and reiterated in the Masters Saga's initial episode. It is NOT OSM information. The number of survivors in the Macross OSM was 1 million.

Ultimately, the REF/UEEF took Zentraedi fighters, PAs, and Battlepods with them, based on the readout for the Bioroid Interceptor. Most of the Zentraedi went with them as well, and are implied or ordered to shrink down (As ASC so promptly points out with Supereme Command Leonard).

That's been remarked upon before... the UEEF took Zentradi mecha with them, and Zentradi troops to operate them. What Leonard says about the Zentradi being forcibly micronized does not, as far as we are aware, apply to any Zentradi beyond those living on Earth. (This may be a nod to the old Sentinels comics, which served as the basis of Prelude, wherein the Zentradi did eventually shrink down to human size, but DECADES later than those living on Earth... actually during the whole Edwards affair, originally.)

In Macross 2 I've encountered nothing that suggests that Earth has extrasolar colonies(that's Macross Plus and follow-ons, which effectively constitute a THIRD Macross universe).

Because, as an unhappy consequence of the American anime industry being rather half-formed at the time, you missed out on about 90% of the material that actually came out for Macross II. There's a LOT more than just the OVA. Viewers in America missed out on almost the entire backstory, the prequel stories, the material that talks about what happened to the cast after the war, etc. Hell, the American distributors didn't even get the frigging year the OVA is set in correct, to give you an idea of how very badly they screwed the pooch.

I'm also seeing a far greater acknowledgment of the Zentran/Meltran contribution to the starting population numbers, leading to them making up a much larger(arguably in numbers, definitely in physical stature) presence in the reconstruction.

This would be more or less accurate, as the Zentradi/Meltrandi outnumbered humans roughly 8 to 1 during the immediate aftermath of the war. There were also considerable influxes of Zentradi defectors over the intervening years thanks to a number of skirmishes against rogue Zentradi fleet elements (occurring fairly frequently until about 2018, and before finally dropping off to around once a decade by the 2070s) and several large-scale wars against Zentradi and/or Meltrandi main fleets in 2036, 2037, 2054, and 2082 (the latter being alluded to in the OVA itself by Sylvie and Hibiki, the first two being independent prequel stories in their own right).

And Field Marshal Leonard's remarks? I'd take them with a grain of salt.

I would too, if they weren't confirming what was said in earlier episodes of a completely different saga altogether. The one reason I give it the weight it does is that we're talking a very deliberate choice by the writers, and one of the few areas of inter-saga consistency in all of Robotech. There's no mistaking this as an accidental bit of dialogue.

Unknown. The question can also be asked if the Gnerl provides any advantages over existing human fighters (by 2E RPG):

Though, if we're considering the merits of the Gnerl, we must also consider the potential disadvantages... are there enough available units in working order to use, for one.

-would be the faster than existing human designs, and neglecting orbital-insertion faster than any airbreathing fighter available. This would allow the Gnerl to respond faster or be staged father away. The lack of VTOL may be an issue, but it is something that hasn't stopped any real world military.

But, as the Gnerl would not be available right away due to the need for humans to work around the existing controls (or to find Zentradi pilots who can be trusted), it should also be compared against the non-variable fighters that emerged in that period as well. The lack of VTOL is probably an issue, due to the lack of viable runways on Earth's surface.

-beam cannon while not as hard hitting as the projectile weapons, would allow it to stay in the game longer over the human fighters and has longer range. The SF-3A is the only exception with it's heavy beam cannons (ASC beam cannons are a joke in comparison to the Gnerl or SF-3A, and their projectile cannons aren't any better than the RDF).

While it's nice to know the RPG acknowledged the SF-3A's firepower, I fear the Gnerl's was overstated. (A nice tidbit, the SF-3A actually has the single most powerful energy weapon with an explicitly given yield in the 1st Space War era.)

On the flip-side, there is no need to keep the Zentraedi as giants or to have them use their old mecha.

If that's a viable or effective solution for long-term operation. The only time we see it done in the series is for exclusively non-combat operation in the very short term. Admittedly, with the plethora of VF-1s that were apparently available, they might well have gone the Macross route and micloned trustworthy Zentradi and stuck them in VF-1s. (VFMF: VF-1's got some interesting paint schemes for all-Zentradi squadrons of the reconstruction era.)

Those ships are also going to need a force of mobile units (mecha) for force projection (most if not all ships carry some form of mecha to deploy), requiring mecha to go with those ships (they can't all be colonist transport, Gloval was looking to take the war to the Masters before it arrived at Earth).

Presumably the ships in service used either the available body of VF-1s or the non-variable fighters being produced in that period... for consistency with the animated material.

And yet by 2029 there is no evidence of any Zentreadi wreckage if we go by the show. That would indicate the cleanup/salvage effort we see in 2013 isn't anywhere near done. Or do you think that ~3years is enough time to salvage from all those ships that are supposed to be present.

We only see a very small area of Earth's surface, so it's entirely possible that there are plenty of untouched wrecks out in the wasteland... or at least debris that survived reentry. Humanity's settlements in the 1st and 2nd RWs seem to all have been clustered within an hour or so's flight from Macross city (and its within-driving-distance successor, Monument).

[Sgt Anjay]

The number on the SDF-1 is originally given as 70,000, but later the number drops to 50,000.

Meanwhile, during Leonard's entire speech, footage of "To The Stars", NOT "Force of Arms", plays. The casualties he names all die in "To The Stars", NOT "Force of Arms". Why is the number he gives being associated with the events of the episode "Force of Arms"? Especially since by "Force of Arms", the last number on board the SDF-1 was given as 50,000, and not 70,000?

[Seto Kaiba]

The number on the SDF-1 is originally given as 70,000, but later the number drops to 50,000.

Because the number given is the count of civilians... there was apparently some attrition (which also happened in the OSM), and the 70,000 figure he cites includes the ship's crew (which was replenished before the SDF-1 left Earth again), which is adding 16,000 or more heads to that headcount according to the official stats.

Meanwhile, during Leonard's entire speech, footage of "To The Stars", NOT "Force of Arms", plays. The casualties he names all die in "To The Stars", NOT "Force of Arms". Why is the number he gives being associated with the events of the episode "Force of Arms"?

Because, as you may note from the dialogue, he's talking about the war as a whole and the "Zentradi holocaust" (his word) in particular... the listing of the SDF-1's dead bridge crew is only relevant to the part of his speech concerning individual heroism of the previous generation, as is the reuse of the footage from Ep36. (Though the latter is also intended to bridge the gaps between the Macross Saga and Masters Saga, in story.)

[jedi078]

You’re not factoring in the fact that for every airframe there is a maintenance crew…..

No, you're simply ASSUMING that's the case... the series certainly does not bear that out.

Ok so who’s going to load the missiles? Who’s going to load the gunpod? Who’s going to charge the life support systems? Who’s going to load the protoculture cells?

You’re not factoring in the fact that while we only see a few people on the ‘bridge’ (which appears to be quite exposed) the ship would also have a Combat Information Center from which the ship is really run during combat.

I sense a theme brewing... again, you're just assuming that is the case with no supporting evidence to speak of. RT is not obliged to do things the same way the real world does, and indeed often doesn't.

...and your only supporting evidence is from what is seen on screen of a 30 year old carton meant for children. As for me I will use common sense and fill the gaps with RL reasoning.

You’re not factoring in the fact that the RPG stats (WE ARE talking about the RPG here) of those massive Ikazuchi-class carriers lists more mecha then we see launched on screen.

You're right, I am not taking those particular parts of the RPG stats into account because, as you may have noticed, I've repeatedly pointed out that they are demonstrably BS.

So just because we didn't see more fighters launched on screen they weren't? That kind of reasoning is not sound.

Sorry a ‘Corps’ sized formation is anywhere between 20,000-45,000 personnel.

Like many terms in military organization, "corps" has more than one correct usage. The original creators are not wrong simply because you refuse to acknowledge that fact. The Marine Corps, for instance, might take exception to your definition. As a purely administrative grouping, there is no fixed size for a corps. The organizational division that shares the term but has a completely different application for it does have a fixed size.

Well considering that fact that I'm only counting combat troops and not support personnel 20,000-45,000 is about right.

Now IIRC Dana’s unit had around 10-12 Hover tanks, and being led by a lowly Lieutenant it would be a platoon sized formation (oh and as an FYI squads are led by NCO’s not officers).

At the risk of pointing out the painfully obvious, the 15th was not an infantry squad, it was a tank squadron... for which its size and its leadership are reasonably appropriate.

Again it must be stressed that if it was a battalion/squadron or a company sized unit there would have been plenty of other officers to take command other than Dana.

Actually the leadership of the 15th squadron was highly inappropriate as they were a company sized Armoured unit and should have been lead by a Captain or a Major. Dana could have (and should have) lead a troop (a platoon sized unit of 4 tanks).

Unlike a modern tank squadron, the 15th was made up of single-person vehicles... so it's only natural that the unit would have its organization scaled down somewhat. In truth, the impression I'm getting from the OSM publications I've found in recent months have led me to suspect their organization was modeled on Mobile Suit teams from Gundam... a sound possibility, considering that Southern Cross did draw VERY heavily on Gundam. Ranks are rather vague and did take some time for the RT writers to pin down in the Masters Saga, so this may simply be a gaffe on their part. (There's some terminology used in the original that suggest that the ATAC 15th Squad is considered more like an infantry platoon, organizationally... Charles is referred to as 小隊長 (Ko Taichou... literally "Platoon Leader")).

...and as such 15 platoons would not make up a 'Corps' sized formation. It would be a battalion sized formation.

So apparently the guys putting together the OSM material didn't do their research, or maybe they would have noted that the Alpha Tactics Armored Corps, was a battalion/squadron and not a corps sized formation.

Oh one more thing so what is Dana’s unit? You’ve stated it to be a squadron and a platoon. I’m sorry to say it can’t be both since when it comes to the organization of ground forces a squadron is roughly a battalion sized unit.

[Sgt Anjay]

The number on the SDF-1 is originally given as 70,000, but later the number drops to 50,000.

Because the number given is the count of civilians... there was apparently some attrition (which also happened in the OSM), and the 70,000 figure he cites includes the ship's crew (which was replenished before the SDF-1 left Earth again)

Unless you have a Robotech source stating the 50K (which, yes, of course was due to attrition) was actually bumped up back to 70K, the number is 50K on the SDF-1 by "Force of Arms".

Which, of course, is apropos of not much besides the starting population of the third Macross City.

Meanwhile, during Leonard's entire speech, footage of "To The Stars", NOT "Force of Arms", plays. The casualties he names all die in "To The Stars", NOT "Force of Arms". Why is the number he gives being associated with the events of the episode "Force of Arms"?

Because, as you may note from the dialogue, he's talking about the war as a whole and the "Zentradi holocaust" (his word) in particular

No, that's your interpretation. One which ignores the footage used and the list of casualties Leonard gives, in order to associate it with an episode ("Force of Arms") that's never referenced even though, as you so emphatically point out, they specifically hand-crafted that episode out of whatever footage they wanted to use. As for the words Leonard used, to the survivors of Macross the day the thrice-born city finally died at the hands of Khyron would indeed be a "Zentraedi holocaust".

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok so who’s going to load the missiles? Who’s going to load the gunpod? Who’s going to charge the life support systems? Who’s going to load the protoculture cells?

We do, on several occasions, see some deck crew working on fighters... but just as often, we see the pilots themselves handling matters of maintenance on their planes. It's hardly "a maintenance crew for every plane", as you asserted.

...and your only supporting evidence is from what is seen on screen of a 30 year old carton meant for children. As for me I will use common sense and fill the gaps with RL reasoning.

My supporting evidence is what we're explicitly shown again and again in the series and even the recent Shadow Chronicles "movie"... these ships are controlled from the stations on the bridge. The ONLY time we see anything which bears a resemblance to a command information center is on Zentradi fleet command battleships. Of the original shows, it was only Macross that went for semi-realism. The other two, and the Robotech-original RTSC feature all went the conventional sci-fi route instead. It's not common sense to ignore the actual content of the series itself in favor of a demonstrably incorrect assumption.

So just because we didn't see more fighters launched on screen they weren't? That kind of reasoning is not sound.

Wrong. My process is entirely research-based, and as designs like the Ikazuchi do not, in actual fact, possess any of the supplementary hangars the RPG tells us are there, and were never conceived as carrying anything other than their 144 fighters, I don't count anything other than those 144 fighters that we can demonstrate are meant to be there.

Well considering that fact that I'm only counting combat troops and not support personnel 20,000-45,000 is about right.

It's really not, because you're using a different application of the term altogether... in direct contradiction of the evidence... but whatever.

...and as such 15 platoons would not make up a 'Corps' sized formation. It would be a battalion sized formation.

Let me be frank here, you're wrong because you're using a different application of the term "Corps" from what is actually being used in the show and OSM. The α Tactics Armored Corps is not a formation, it's an administrative grouping of units with a common function (in this case, operation of variable field artillery), like the Marine Corps, Transport Corps, Medical Corps, etc. The 15 squads/platoons are sufficient for this definition.

So apparently the guys putting together the OSM material didn't do their research, or maybe they would have noted that the Alpha Tactics Armored Corps, was a battalion/squadron and not a corps sized formation.

No, they understood their material just fine. The failure of research and/or comprehension is on your end.

[Seto Kaiba]

Unless you have a Robotech source stating the 50K (which, yes, of course was due to attrition) was actually bumped up back to 70K, the number is 50K on the SDF-1 by "Force of Arms".

I'm not saying it was bumped, I'm saying exactly what the show tells us... the count we're given is the CIVILIANS. That count does not include the 16,000+ crew aboard the SDF-1 in either case. IIRC, it's mentioned in "Paradise Lost" that the SDF-1 took on additional crew (pilots, specifically)*, and the civilian population is given as 56k in connection with "Bursting Point". So yes, the extra people aren't coming out of the woodwork, and the number isn't being bumped up, they're just counting the total number of survivors... not the total number of civilian survivors.

EDIT: Actually, the bit about additional pilots being taken on bears clarification. I'm not sure if my recollection of that scene is 100% accurate from the RT version. I know in the original, Max makes quite a meal out of it, complaining that those pilots stationed on the Macross during resupply were raw recruits greener than him. (This is why, in the OSM, the Macross's fighter complement remained at around 300 VF-1 Super Valkyries in total during the final part of the main story.)

Which, of course, is apropos of not much besides the starting population of the third Macross City.

Not just the city, all of humanity according to Leonard's speech and the dialogue from Ep28.

As for the words Leonard used, to the survivors of Macross the day the thrice-born city finally died at the hands of Khyron would indeed be a "Zentraedi holocaust".

I'm sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense... the casualties from Khyron's attack are shown to be minimal, with most or all of the civilians in bunkers. The only real candidate for the term "Zentradi holocaust" is the obvious one... the massive orbital bombardment that we're repeatedly told totally devastated Earth's surface and wiped out its population.

[Sgt Anjay]

Unless you have a Robotech source stating the 50K (which, yes, of course was due to attrition) was actually bumped up back to 70K, the number is 50K on the SDF-1 by "Force of Arms".

I'm not saying it was bumped, I'm saying exactly what the show tells us... the count we're given is the CIVILIANS. That count does not include the 16,000+ crew aboard the SDF-1 in either case. IIRC, it's mentioned in "Paradise Lost" that the SDF-1 took on additional crew (pilots, specifically), and the civilian population is given as 56k in connection with "Bursting Point". So yes, the extra people aren't coming out of the woodwork, and the number isn't being bumped up, they're just counting the total number of survivors... not the total number of civilian survivors.

That shows we're never actually given the total number of people on the SDF-1...which makes the number that Leonard gives unrelated to the number given in Macross Saga, because when Leonard gives 70K that would be referring to the total but when Macross Saga gave 70K a number that was later updated to 50K that was only civilian and not military personel. You made so much of the fact they used the same number twice, but the two numbers aren't even referring to the same kinds of counts? It just keeps getting slipperier and slipperier.

Which, of course, is apropos of not much besides the starting population of the third Macross City.

Not just the city, all of humanity according to Leonard's speech and the dialogue from Ep28.

No, neither Leonard's speech nor "Reconstruction Blues" state that. That is, again, simply your interpretation.

As for the words Leonard used, to the survivors of Macross the day the thrice-born city finally died at the hands of Khyron would indeed be a "Zentraedi holocaust".

I'm sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense

So no interpretation but yours makes sense?

the casualties from Khyron's attack are shown to be minimal

So minimal that thereafter there is NO MACROSS CITY, and Monument City grows up instead.

[Seto Kaiba]

That shows we're never actually given the total number of people on the SDF-1... [...]

Not quite, no... we're given a total number of civilians on the SDF-1, and the number of crew is also a known detail. That said, we can therefore validate Leonard's remark based on that hard evidence.

You made so much of the fact they used the same number twice, but the two numbers aren't even referring to the same kinds of counts? It just keeps getting slipperier and slipperier.

I'm sorry if you feel that my fact-driven argument is somehow disingenuous because it lines up perfectly with the evidence from the series and other canon materials. The number we're given at the start of the series is 70,000 civilians rescued by the SDF-1, which we're told is pared down to ~50-56,000 later in the Macross Saga. We also know that there were about 16-20,000 crew serving aboard the SDF-1. The 70,000 given by Leonard is a total number of survivors, and it so happens that 50,000 + 20,000 is 70,000... provided we're dealing with a base-10 numbering system and the commonly accepted rules of mathematics. If only those humans aboard the SDF-1 survived the bombardment (Zentradi holocaust), that would give us the 70,000 total survivors that Leonard stated in 2029.

So no interpretation but yours makes sense?

My interpretation is based on the evidence of the series itself, whereas alternatives tend to require that we contradict one or more of the most important scenes in the series.

the casualties from Khyron's attack are shown to be minimal

So minimal that thereafter there is NO MACROSS CITY, and Monument City grows up instead.

Huh... could've fooled me. And here I was, looking at the fact that Macross City is still very much there, and inhabited, in 2015 (a year after Khyron's attack) as shown in From the Stars issue #1.


Hm... we're drifting off topic, shall we adjourn to PM to avoid derailing the thread and incurring the wrath of Jefffar?
(And, so help me, the temptation on my part to ask how Iago is doing...)