Zentraedi Gnerl fighter (REF refit)

[Sgt Anjay]

Huh... could've fooled me. And here I was, looking at the fact that Macross City is still very much there, and inhabited, in 2015 (a year after Khyron's attack) as shown in From the Stars issue #1.

And here I am, watching Masters Saga wherein the place is off-limits wilderness. We're shown the mounds built in From The Stars, and I'm sure salvage and similar was underway. And even after Monument grows up there are nearby airfields and bases, which may well have been closer to the site of Macross City than Monument as a legacy of their initially being put in place to service the one rather than the other. But Macross City clearly goes away after Khyron's attack, and it takes ignoring Masters Saga to say otherwise.

Regardless, I don't see there's really any point in going to PMs when you insist on your interpretation as immutable truth and imply the only facts there could possibly be back you (if what he said here meant this and what that guy said then meant this other thing even though what's being shown isn't what he's talking about and you take that number and subtract this and then here add it back in and its the same number by coincidence but the number is right, and no one ever uses hyperbole and only talk in literal truth, etc).

I'll just leave it that it's fairly obvious the view that there's much more than 70,000 of humanity left at the end of "Force of Arms" is entirely supportable without throwing anything in the series out, people are not inherently wrong just for having that view, nor should they be trolled every time they state that view.

[Seto Kaiba]

And here I am, watching Masters Saga wherein the place is off-limits wilderness. We're shown the mounds built in From The Stars, and I'm sure salvage and similar was underway.

We're also shown that there are active airfields and workshops and laboratories in Macross City, fully staffed and involved heavily in the business of testing potential successors to the VF-1 (the YF-4 and VF-X-6) and running structural analyses with existing VF-1 units that are being retired (such as Skull 1). That's hardly an uninhabited city, or off-limits wilderness. Your contention that the city's population was devastated to the extent that the city is abandoned is has no actual basis in the existing material. (IIRC, the official explanation given, in-universe, was that the city was abandoned and the domes declared off-limits due to radiation.)

But Macross City clearly goes away after Khyron's attack, and it takes ignoring Masters Saga to say otherwise.

But not, as you argued, as a result of the city's population being devastated in Khyron's 2014 suicide attack... nor did it go away immediately thereafter, as you implied.

EDIT: In actual fact, the Robotech.com Infopedia asserts that Monument City had already been established before that 2014 attack, and that the population simply migrated there after the attack.

[Sgt Anjay]

And here I am, watching Masters Saga wherein the place is off-limits wilderness. We're shown the mounds built in From The Stars, and I'm sure salvage and similar was underway.

We're also shown that there are active airfields and workshops and laboratories<snip>

I like how you cut out the part of my response wherein I talk about the airfields and bases.

Seriously, more than one viewpoint is supportable and has a right to exist.

[Seto Kaiba]

I like how you cut out the part of my response wherein I talk about the airfields and bases.

I'm glad you like it. I cut it because your statement was inaccurate. The airfield, lab, etc. in question are shown to be IN New Macross City... not near it. Also noteworthy, the Infopedia asserts that Monument City existed before the 2014 attack, and that the population simply migrated there. It did not spring up as a result of the attack.

[Sgt Anjay]

I like how you cut out the part of my response wherein I talk about the airfields and bases.

I'm glad you like it. I cut it because your statement was inaccurate. The airfield, lab, etc. in question are shown to be IN New Macross City

Though I'm sure there were intact facilities in what was left of Macross City in use while the Mounds were built up, which was clearly no overnight operation, that Macross City was a going concern and that everything depicted in From The Stars had to be in Macross City itself and not adjacent military facilities is debatable.

Also noteworthy, the Infopedia asserts that Monument City existed before the 2014 attack, and that the population simply migrated there. It did not spring up as a result of the attack.

Then it's a good thing I never said Monument City was founded after the attack. What I said was, and here I find myself with the need to quote...myself, even though what I said is right up there and all it takes is a scroll up...but regardless, what I said was "Monument City grows up instead", not "Monument City is then founded". For the record, the people migrating to Monument thus causing it to grow up instead of the now defunct Macross City after the holocaust of Khyron's suicide attack fits perfect.

[jedi078]

Ok so who’s going to load the missiles? Who’s going to load the gunpod? Who’s going to charge the life support systems? Who’s going to load the protoculture cells?

We do, on several occasions, see some deck crew working on fighters... but just as often, we see the pilots themselves handling matters of maintenance on their planes. It's hardly "a maintenance crew for every plane", as you asserted.

Ok, so you admit we see ground crews, but because we only see a few and only those few they are the only ones that exist?

...and your only supporting evidence is from what is seen on screen of a 30 year old carton meant for children. As for me I will use common sense and fill the gaps with RL reasoning.

My supporting evidence is what we're explicitly shown again and again in the series and even the recent Shadow Chronicles "movie"... these ships are controlled from the stations on the bridge. The ONLY time we see anything which bears a resemblance to a command information center is on Zentradi fleet command battleships. Of the original shows, it was only Macross that went for semi-realism. The other two, and the Robotech-original RTSC feature all went the conventional sci-fi route instead. It's not common sense to ignore the actual content of the series itself in favor of a demonstrably incorrect assumption.

How is it incorrect when we don't have the whole picture to work with? What we see on screen does not give us all the information. How do we know that the OSM is giving us the entire picture as well?

So just because we didn't see more fighters launched on screen they weren't? That kind of reasoning is not sound.

Wrong. My process is entirely research-based, and as designs like the Ikazuchi do not, in actual fact, possess any of the supplementary hangars the RPG tells us are there, and were never conceived as carrying anything other than their 144 fighters, I don't count anything other than those 144 fighters that we can demonstrate are meant to be there.

Your research is based on what is seen on screen and on mospeada OSM that is (apparently) not 100% canon when it pertains to Robotech. Therefore your assertions that the Ikazuchi in Robotech is limited to only 144 fighters is in error.

...and as such 15 platoons would not make up a 'Corps' sized formation. It would be a battalion sized formation.

Let me be frank here, you're wrong because you're using a different application of the term "Corps" from what is actually being used in the show and OSM. The α Tactics Armored Corps is not a formation, it's an administrative grouping of units with a common function (in this case, operation of variable field artillery), like the Marine Corps, Transport Corps, Medical Corps, etc. The 15 squads/platoons are sufficient for this definition.

Wrong, a corps consists of 2-4 (sometimes as many as six) divisions.

So apparently the guys putting together the OSM material didn't do their research, or maybe they would have noted that the Alpha Tactics Armored Corps, was a battalion/squadron and not a corps sized formation.

No, they understood their material just fine. The failure of research and/or comprehension is on your end.

They failed in their research because we know what a corps sized military formation consists of. I suggest you look up the names of military formations and their definitions.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok, so you admit we see ground crews, but because we only see a few and only those few they are the only ones that exist?

Not nearly as many as you assert, to be sure... if pilots are having to take over part or all of the aircraft's maintenance. It also helps that we're shown, when Hikaru/Rick launches in VT-102, that some of the arming process is automated.

How is it incorrect when we don't have the whole picture to work with? What we see on screen does not give us all the information. How do we know that the OSM is giving us the entire picture as well?

We know it's incorrect because what we see, right there on the screen during many MANY episodes and even in Shadow Chronicles, is that the bridge crew in the bridge tower are the ones actually operating the ship. What we see there on the screen gives us literally all the information we need. That this is consistent throughout all of Robotech from their earliest episodes to the most modern titles in the continuity, which makes it fairly indisputable.

EDIT: Hell, this is even consistent throughout Macross's sequels. We don't see anything approximating a command information center on a human-built ship until the Battle Frontier in Macross Frontier, and that's STILL located inside the ship's bridge tower and apparently not actually involved in the running of the ship itself... just the management of the fleet.

EDIT 2: To answer your question about how we know the OSM is giving us a complete picture... the Macross OSM in particular loves to go into extreme detail, covering ships like the SDF-1 Macross, Battle 7, or Macross Quarter in such high detail that we know what every individual bridge operator's name is, what systems their consoles control, their BWH, blood type, nationality, education, and so on. Things are less excessively detailed in MOSPEADA's OSM, but it's still made fairly evident that these ships are controlled via the stations in their bridges rather than by some other operating command center... and that extremely small bridge crews are the norm. The only one that's not covered is Southern Cross, but the animation doesn't really leave us in any doubt there.

Your research is based on what is seen on screen and on mospeada OSM that is (apparently) not 100% canon when it pertains to Robotech. Therefore your assertions that the Ikazuchi in Robotech is limited to only 144 fighters is in error.

Also incorrect. My research is based on the content of the animation, the content of the dialogue, the original animation's source materials, and the notes of the people who wrote the Infopedia for Harmony Gold. The OSM is not 100% canon for Robotech, but it is the basis for the official Robotech material and therefore valid. I merely pare down the RT stats written by fanfic writers to get rid of things that are clearly impossible or unsupportable, like the Ikazuchi-class's nonexistent large craft hangers and its alleged hundreds of other mecha.

Wrong, a corps consists of 2-4 (sometimes as many as six) divisions.

Again, you're confusing the formation called a "Corps" with the organization term "Corps". The two are not the same, nor are they interchangeable. "Corps" as a formation is as you say, but "Corps" as an administrative classification is not a entity of any fixed size... e.g. the Marine Corps, Nurse Corps, Chaplain Corps, Transportation Corps, Medical Corps, and so on.


Your contention is that the term "Corps" is being used in the sense of a formation in the OSM or RT. It is not. In either case, it's referring to a separate branch of service entirely... like the US Marine Corps, for instance. (Which has 243,000 soldiers in it, rather more than 20-45k.)

[ArmySGT.]

So humans can't at the end of the 1st Robotech War use Tirolian technology (the SDF-1, the factory satellite, and Zentraedi ships / mecha). Humans are not able to build these systems from raw material. Humans have to tear down and recycle Zentraedi ships for their reflex furnaces and fold devices...

Ok, and only 3-4 Zentraedi ships, including Breetai's flagship survive the climactic battle with Dolza's fleet.

So, how does OSM explain the construction of the Super Dimensional Fortress.... 2 ????

[ShadowLogan]

@jedi078
Your welcome about the 15th count.

@Jeffar

Actually the leadership of the 15th squadron was highly inappropriate as they were a company sized Armoured unit and should have been lead by a Captain or a Major.

If you want to get technical, Sean was originally a Captain before being demoted according to Emerson and Rochelle in "False Start", granted Nova calls him Lt later though (Brevet rank of captain?).

@Seto:

Though, if we're considering the merits of the Gnerl, we must also consider the potential disadvantages... are there enough available units in working order to use, for one.

Well Khyron certainly found a stockpile to use. Breetai's ship still had some on hand IIRC "Viva Miryia". So they're are out there, they just need to recover them.

But, as the Gnerl would not be available right away due to the need for humans to work around the existing controls (or to find Zentradi pilots who can be trusted), it should also be compared against the non-variable fighters that emerged in that period as well. The lack of VTOL is probably an issue, due to the lack of viable runways on Earth's surface.

But a bare bones modified Gnerl would be available sooner than any new design could hope to be, so there isn't a need for trusted Zentreadi.

And I did compare it to the non-variable fighters in both TMS and TRM (2E RPG) SBs. VTOL may not be necessary given it was dropped from the ASC designs.

Presumably the ships in service used either the available body of VF-1s or the non-variable fighters being produced in that period... for consistency with the animated material.

But the new ship production numbers could outstrip the available supply. And the human non-variables in that period are generally more limited in scope (the QF-3K is the only multi-enviroment unit until the Cosair and Conbat come on line).

In all likely hood the UEEF in this period (2015-203x) is using a mix of platforms from the contributing original animation arcs, and possibly original designs (SDF-3). So I see no problem with taking a TMS mecha and putting on a TRM ship.

We only see a very small area of Earth's surface, so it's entirely possible that there are plenty of untouched wrecks out in the wasteland...

I agree the wrecks are out there in the wasteland (and probably on the ocean floor), but the count by 2029 is no where near as much as it was in 2013.

[jedi078]

Your research is based on what is seen on screen and on mospeada OSM that is (apparently) not 100% canon when it pertains to Robotech. Therefore your assertions that the Ikazuchi in Robotech is limited to only 144 fighters is in error.

Also incorrect. My research is based on the content of the animation, the content of the dialogue, the original animation's source materials, and the notes of the people who wrote the Infopedia for Harmony Gold. The OSM is not 100% canon for Robotech, but it is the basis for the official Robotech material and therefore valid. I merely pare down the RT stats written by fanfic writers to get rid of things that are clearly impossible or unsupportable, like the Ikazuchi-class's nonexistent large craft hangers and its alleged hundreds of other mecha.

In admitting that the OSM is not 100% cannon to Robotech you also admit that your assertions are not 100% accurate.

[Jerell]

The one good thing about Zentraedi mecha and gear, apparently they can go for a very long time without maintenance crews working of them and still be combat ready. It seems all the earth designed mecha are hangar queens compared to the zentraedi arsenal. Just for the shear fun it, using WW2 tanks as a similar comparison, the earth mecha would require maintenance like a Panther or Tiger 2, while the zentraedi would have maintenance needs of a Sherman or T-34 on steroids.

On a separate topic, I've always wondered what full sized Zentraedi eat, especially post Space War I. "Oi Seraal! Toss me another cow won't you, old boy?"

[Seto Kaiba]

OK Seto, first off, I completely agree that the 70,000 number is canon (though technically its 72,000, 56K + 16K = 72K. So the narrator and Leonard were rounding, right?). It’s still wrong, but it’s canon.

Um... I think there's a strong possibility that you're unclear on the definition of "canon". To be canon, material needs to be officially considered true, authentic, and correct for that particular franchise. If it's wrong, then it's not canon. With RT's status as a hastily slapped together mess, the canon policy is understandably somewhat vague and nebulous with respect to determining what is actually true for the ongoing continuity. The official, Harmony Gold-endorsed policy for that states that the content of the series itself technically trumps all but the creative director's say-so. The series itself consistently supports the idea that only 70,000 people survived the Zentradi "holocaust", across two sagas. The series paints for us a consistent picture of a sparsely populated Earth, and a fairly small UEEF out there in the greater galaxy. The fans made a lot of assumptions, based on secondary materials that contradict the animation and animation source material (y'know, all that "show" stuff that Harmony Gold said is top dog) wherein the population is assumed to be much greater than what we actually see.

The RPG is often off in left field, doing its own thing... which is fine and dandy, because its job is not to be a 100% brutally accurate guidebook to the series, but rather to be a collection of tools for fans to use to play games in the setting. It has to take certain liberties to provide more than a very narrow selection of story opportunities, because Robotech is not what you'd call a title with a narratively broad "world".

Note that Cold Weather Division, Desert Division, Forest Division, Marsh Division, Mountain Division, Naval Division and Recon/Patrol Divisions aren’t quoted at all, though they are considered to be a part of Tactical Corps aegis.

Robotech itself offers us zero clues to the size of the 2nd RW-era military, but the OSM suggests (and the animation supports) that the Southern Cross Army was very, very small and defending a handful of cities on a world with a relatively small population. The RPG, of course, exaggerates the population of Earth by several orders of magnitude to provide more narrative latitude for the GMs. (These units were originally small, specialist units under the aegis of the Tactics Corps, for the most part. I do find it amusing that they worked in a few minor homages... Jeanne Francaix was the original name for the character that became Dana Sterling in the Masters Saga.)

[...] it’s pretty likely that when we hear 21st Combat Wing, there are likely to be 20 or more such wings in addition to this force, and when we hear 12th Armored Cavalry Regiment, there are likely to be 11 or more additional regiments, no?

Not necessarily... when a squadron or other unit is disestablished, the number isn't always recycled.

A total complement of 520 seems high at first, but it is only about 61% higher for a ship that is larger across all dimensions, rounder in all ways, has as much volume above the main fuselage waterline/midpoint as it does below, and also has a large under mounted hanger section.

Considering that, unlike the Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyer, the Garfish-class ship is expected to be operating (per the RPG stats) with enough supplies for a year or more between resupplies, while the Arleigh Burke has to be constantly resupplied by tenders in order to operate for more than a few days at a stretch. Even if we're charitable, and assume a high-efficiency recycling and food processing system, the sheer volume of ordinance for a year's operating time is going to take up a not-inconsiderable portion of the ship's interior, reducing the room available to its crew.

To me, small as the Garfish is, and as small as its air complement is, 57 is probably too high. We know from the show that the bridge crew totals just four people. Even a ship the size of an Ark Angel can apparently operate with a very small engineering crew of four or five people, so 24 should be enough to run the actual ship itself three shifts a day. They don't have the hangar space for complex maintenance, so the maintenance crew is probably relatively light as well.

However, if, out of a fleet of 500 ships, we assume 450 are Garfish class vessels, then we still end up with 234,000 personnel (520 x 450 = 234,000).

If we go with a more animation-oriented estimate, based on what the series and RTSC show us of ship operations, we can expect the 400 Garfish-class ships that we KNOW exist to have somewhere around 18,000 crew total. (4 bridge crew at 3 shifts a day, an equal number of engineers, six dedicated deck crew, and 15 pilots.) Even at 57, it's still only 22,800, many of whom were apparently "born in deep space on a Robotech ship".

Note also that the bridge of a modern warship has, at most, half a dozen watch standers there. 3-4 is actually more common really, save for carriers.

This does not appear to be the case for any Robotech starship, however... though Vince does have that one chick on his bridge whose job seems to be to stand there and repeat what other people say. (Is anyone else having a flashback to Galaxy Quest?) Hell, the SDF-4 is shown, in the series, to have a downright massive bridge crew of SEVEN! That's a good 2-3 people more than the Ark Angel, if we don't count looky-loos.

So humans can't at the end of the 1st Robotech War use Tirolian technology (the SDF-1, the factory satellite, and Zentraedi ships / mecha).

Not "can't use". "Are inexperienced at using/adapting". This, sadly, remains true for much of the rest of the timeline. The Bioroid Interceptor, for instance, needed to be built by the Tirolians.

Humans are not able to build these systems from raw material. Humans have to tear down and recycle Zentraedi ships for their reflex furnaces and fold devices...

Yeah, apparently so... according to RTSC's material, anyway. Humans supposedly lacked the technical prowess to build a reliable fold system, and so resorted to pinching working ones from Zentradi wrecks whenever they could.

Ok, and only 3-4 Zentraedi ships, including Breetai's flagship survive the climactic battle with Dolza's fleet.

Most of those ships are actually on the factory satellite... the only one we see actually operating is Britai's, the rest are shown in the satellite's hangar when Britai first docks there after the station's surrender.

So, how does OSM explain the construction of the Super Dimensional Fortress.... 2 ????

Easy answer... unlike Robotech, where humanity didn't really understand the technology they were working with, and robotechnology was studied by a handful of military scientists in the deepest of secrecy, the research and development of overtechnology in Macross's universe(s) was done by massive, multinational organizations and corporations, and thus humanity ended up understanding not only how to use the alien technology they'd recovered... they understood how that technology worked, the principles behind it, and could do a pretty decent job replicating it.

Yeah, they still missed the software booby-trap buried in the original alien systems of the rebuilt and freshly commissioned SDF-1 Macross, but the onboard systems didn't fail because they were rebuilt improperly... they failed because that booby trap screwed up the workings of a series of interconnected systems (the fold drive, the main gun, and gravity control).

Robotech has the United Earth Forces starting to build their SDF-2 using salvaged components from the SDF-1 in the years following the orbital bombardment (circa 2012-2013). With their developing understanding of the principles on which the alien tech worked, the UN Forces in Macross's universe(s) started building their SDF-2 in 2003, using all-new and human-built systems. The partially-complete warship was retooled into a colony ship following the end of the war in 2010, and was launched in 2012 as the SDF-2 Megaroad-01, the first ship of the Megaroad-class. The UN Spacy went on and built about thirty of those, while also building twelve Macross-class SDFs (SDFN-1 thru 12) to serve as scouting and advance recon craft for the colony fleets. Once they were ready to scale up their colonization efforts, they built far larger variable warships (the New Macross-class battle sections) to protect those ships... and built at least 36 of 'em that we know about thus far. Building fold drives was not an obstacle for Macross's humans, even the original ARMDs were fold capable (but had not had their drives installed yet).

(As a side note, the room that Robotech asserts is the SDF-2's bridge is not anything of the kind... it's actually the New Unified Army Command, a command information center built in the torso block of the now-retired SDF-1 to serve as basically the UN Forces equivalent of the Pentagon and NORAD. The SDF-2 was, at the time, actually being built at the Apollo Base shipyards on the moon.)

In admitting that the OSM is not 100% cannon to Robotech you also admit that your assertions are not 100% accurate.

Not at all, my good sir... it appears you've missed some fairly significant details in my previous posts.

On a separate topic, I've always wondered what full sized Zentraedi eat, especially post Space War I. "Oi Seraal! Toss me another cow won't you, old boy?"

Giant drumsticks and flasks of liquor, if the show is anything to go by.

(The original Macross actually does make it clear that liquor is a standard "luxury" component of Zentradi rations.)

[Sgt Anjay]

Yeah, an official number nobody abides by can hardly be called "canon", regardless of how official it is; but on that note, has any Robotech material under any creative team actually demonstrated they were going off the assumption less thank 100k members of humanity survived?

And, of course, it's still...let's say debatable Leonard is talking about "Force of Arms" in his speech when the footage we're shown and the casualties he lists are all from "To The Stars", and that would be the only thing actually suggesting such a small survival rate.

[sirkermittsg]

I understand "cannon" saying that only 70,000 survived.... but lets be realistic here:

1. Leanord may not have been referring to the entire ASC, but instead just the folks in that graduating class.

2. to build the kind of ships and fighters we see in the shows would have required a varitable army of people. no mater how much automation is involved, there would be lots of folks working in thouse factories.

3. we see lots of ships and lots of fighters in the large battles. I can belive that the humans used some cloning etc, but to say that the 70,000 are all of the survivors is abit fool hardy.... there would have been lots of survivor in remote places away from the cities.

realistically we see three groups of folks on the shows:

1. earth civies
2. earth defenders
3. people that take to the stars (both civie and military)

there are huge numbers of people on all the ships....they had to come from somewhere.

the shows never once says that they are cloning people and we see lots of genetically different people in the show.... we don't see thousands of clones all over the place in the human population.

[glitterboy2098]

"canon" says nothing of the kind actually.

the 'only 70,000' is Seto's Fanon*.. he's the only one making the claim.
HG's infopedia doesn't mention how many survived, but the implication due to ship crew sizes and such is a substantial amount of survivors. the RPG indicates many more than 70,000 survived. and the visuals and scenarios in the show itself indicate substantially more than just 70,000 survived.

*'fan canon'..an idea which some fans elevate to the level of being official even though it isn't. well known examples from other scifi settings would be things like 'spock was the first vulcan in starfleet' or the old 'the clonewars had an army of clones attacking the republic' idea that existed prior to the star wars prequels..

[Seto Kaiba]

I understand "cannon" saying that only 70,000 survived.... but lets be realistic here: [...]

Coolbeans, let's talk evidence.

1. Leanord may not have been referring to the entire ASC, but instead just the folks in that graduating class.

Leonard refers to the graduating class (the FIRST graduating class, at that) as being the descendants of, and I quote, the "70,000 survivors of the Zentradi holocaust". Not "70,000 in this town", or "70,000 from Macross City". 70,000 PERIOD. It fits perfectly with what we're told in the Macross Saga about the survivors of the SDF-1. (Note the conspicuous absence of any other mentioned groups of survivors at any point, EVER.)

2. to build the kind of ships and fighters we see in the shows would have required a varitable army of people. no mater how much automation is involved, there would be lots of folks working in thouse factories.

Unless you had some kind of automated factory satellite that we're shown is able to build complex mecha completely on its own when it's working properly... and according to AotSC they had more than one of those.

3. we see lots of ships and lots of fighters in the large battles. I can belive that the humans used some cloning etc, but to say that the 70,000 are all of the survivors is abit fool hardy.... there would have been lots of survivor in remote places away from the cities.

We're told, by the UEDF top brass who have a global overview of the entire battle with the Zentradi, that Earth's surface is totally annihilated, devastated, etc. Total annihilation tends to imply... y'know... that the surface was totally annihilated. We don't see all that many ships or fighters... and by all available evidence the crew numbers and mecha complements for those ships are wildly exaggerated.

Yeah, an official number nobody abides by can hardly be called "canon", regardless of how official it is; [...]

You may want to bone up on the definition of canon then... because it's not the fans who decide what's what, that's a job for the author. Nobody at Harmony Gold has overturned the 70,000 dialogue... and the ONLY way it can be overturned is by Tommy (as their policy is that the series trumps all).

"canon" says nothing of the kind actually.

Um... 'cept for the fact that it's stated, explicitly, in the series itself... and corroborates previous dialogue. That's pretty much a sure-thing indicator that it's canon, especially when it's coming from Robotech's core title.

the 'only 70,000' is Seto's Fanon*.. he's the only one making the claim.

Fanon is fan-created material... 70,000 is official material right outta the frigging show, man.

[taalismn]

Well, I think peoples' takes on pimped-out Gnerls (or, as it should have been known, One Hundred and One Uses for Surplus Stock Fighter Pods) has left the building here.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, I think peoples' takes on pimped-out Gnerls (or, as it should have been known, One Hundred and One Uses for Surplus Stock Fighter Pods) has left the building here.

Pretty much... and all this because I said that they wouldn't need to convert Gnerls due to a lack of manpower in the first couple years after the bombardment.

[taalismn]

Well, I think peoples' takes on pimped-out Gnerls (or, as it should have been known, One Hundred and One Uses for Surplus Stock Fighter Pods) has left the building here.

Pretty much... and all this because I said that they wouldn't need to convert Gnerls due to a lack of manpower in the first couple years after the bombardment.

You know my position on that.
Folks, convert away if it adds to your game/story universe. Few things Humanity ever does make sense from the standpoint of logic(based on true or misinterpreted data for the extra level of uncertainty), so you'll be in good company.

And share your Gnerl-re-renders with the rest of us. Trod your cosmic hotrodder out for all to see.

[glitterboy2098]

"canon" says nothing of the kind actually.

Um... 'cept for the fact that it's stated, explicitly, in the series itself... and corroborates previous dialogue. That's pretty much a sure-thing indicator that it's canon, especially when it's coming from Robotech's core title.

except that your assertion is based on your own interpretation of the context of the lines, which can be interpreted several different ways.

the 'only 70,000' is Seto's Fanon*.. he's the only one making the claim.

Fanon is fan-created material... 70,000 is official material right outta the frigging show, man.

see the above.
it's not that 70,000 wasn't mentioned, its the fact that the only person claiming that only 70,000 survived is you, and your view requires mental gymnastics and ignoring other canon information (both in show and official HG material) in order to work.. including adding concepts that go contrary to canon material (like your proposed human cloning program), to make it work.

so yeah, it's fanon, not canon.

[Seto Kaiba]

it's not that 70,000 wasn't mentioned, its the fact that the only person claiming that only 70,000 survivied is you, and your view requires mental gymnastics and ignoring other canon information (both in show and official HG material) in order to work.

Which would be a valid objection IF AND ONLY IF you were able to provide supporting evidence... but we've thoroughly and completely debunked the claims that the population was much larger, because they're all based on assumptions rather than evidence, and the other "evidence" is explicitly (according to Harmony Gold itself) trumped by the show in the event of any conflict. Only 70,000 survivors is what the show's own dialogue tells us, and the only way around that is to take dialogue out of context.

Until the 70,000 is overturned by Harmony Gold's creative director, it's canon... not fanon.

[Seto Kaiba]

You know my position on that.

Quite. The only real rule for stuff like this is that there are no rules... but depending on how closely you want your game to follow the series, there are in-universe factors that could point to yea or nay. Mostly nay, in this specific case, but that's no obstacle if you, as a GM, want to do it.

[Sgt Anjay]

Yeah, an official number nobody abides by can hardly be called "canon", regardless of how official it is; [...]

You may want to bone up on the definition of canon then... because it's not the fans who decide what's what, that's a job for the author.

Debatable. In point of fact, we've had that debate. In any case, an "official" stance utterly ignored is worth nothing regardless of what fancy word you insist on calling it.

The author, or in the case of Robotech authors, do decide what official product comes out, but in any case I'm unaware of a Robotech creative team that has shown a humanity reduced to 70k individuals in the Rain of Death.

Nobody at Harmony Gold has overturned the 70,000 dialogue

Which doesn't matter since that dialog doesn't actually prove what you say it does.

we've thoroughly and completely debunked the claims that the population was much larger

Is that the royal "we"? That must be the royal we.

And no, it hasn't been debunked in the slightest, you've just presented your personal fan theory, no more valid than any other fan theory, though certainly no less fictitious than the fiction we're all discussing. Which is of course another reason why grandiose terms such as "canon" are so overblown, since it's all fiction, and saying one person's 100% fiction is more real fiction that another person's 100% fiction can get absurd.

[Seto Kaiba]

Debatable. In point of fact, we've had that debate. In any case, an "official" stance utterly ignored is worth nothing regardless of what fancy word you insist on calling it.

Strictly speaking, the official definition of what is or isn't canon is entirely down to the author... though if such is universally rejected, it counts for nothing. However, the rejection of the official canon is far from universal, though I'll admit there's no shortage of grumbling about Tommy's choices.

The author, or in the case of Robotech authors, do decide what official product comes out, but in any case I'm unaware of a Robotech creative team that has shown a humanity reduced to 70k individuals in the Rain of Death.

*points to the original team that (re)wrote/edited/published Robotech*

So, those guys don't count for anything, eh?

Which doesn't matter since that dialog doesn't actually prove what you say it does.

A literal, common-sense interpretation of the dialogue DOES indicate that there were only 70,000 survivors of the Zentradi holocaust (orbital bombardment), which jives perfectly with previous statements made about survivors in earlier episodes. The later episodes go well out of their way to specifically indicate that Earth is very sparsely populated, especially in the New Generation. (There was an extensive discussion of that in another thread, which I can dig out if you'd like.)

Is that the royal "we"? That must be the royal we.

No, I mean "myself and several other members of the forums"... there was, as I alluded to above, an extensive discussion about, and review of relevant episodes for, the population question that thoroughly torpedoed the idea that Earth had a population numbering in the hundreds of millions after the war using nothing but dialogue from the series itself.

[Sgt Anjay]

Debatable. In point of fact, we've had that debate. In any case, an "official" stance utterly ignored is worth nothing regardless of what fancy word you insist on calling it.

Strictly speaking, the official definition of what is or isn't canon is entirely down to the author

They can declare what they consider official, what they want to be taken as canon, and I'm not saying their input should be universally ignored, but it's all fiat...it has as much force as others are willing to give it. When and where ignored, it has no force.

The author, or in the case of Robotech authors, do decide what official product comes out, but in any case I'm unaware of a Robotech creative team that has shown a humanity reduced to 70k individuals in the Rain of Death.

*points to the original team that (re)wrote/edited/published Robotech*

Point all you like, the original Robotech didn't show me a humanity reduced to 70K.

Which doesn't matter since that dialog doesn't actually prove what you say it does.

A literal, common-sense interpretation of the dialogue DOES indicate that there were only 70,000 survivors of the Zentradi holocaust<snip>

Which is said in the episode where we're being shown footage from "To The Stars", and that speech includes example casualties that occurred in "To The Stars", which leads me to associate it with "To The Stars", not "Force Of Arms".

Is that the royal "we"? That must be the royal we.

No, I mean "myself and several other members of the forums"... there was, as I alluded to above, an extensive discussion about, and review of relevant episodes for, the population question that thoroughly torpedoed the idea that Earth had a population numbering in the hundreds of millions after the war using nothing but dialogue from the series itself.

Yes, I'm sure that is an utterly unbiased summation of the thread, which I'm positive I've read because there are very few threads I don't read on this forum, though as my join date and post count together show I'm more of a lurker most of the time rather than a board-spammer, unless something gets me feeling all participatory.

[taalismn]

You know my position on that.

Quite. The only real rule for stuff like this is that there are no rules... but depending on how closely you want your game to follow the series, there are in-universe factors that could point to yea or nay. Mostly nay, in this specific case, but that's no obstacle if you, as a GM, want to do it.

When the specific canon material rings false(and smacks of sloppy and post-haste writing), I do not follow the script like the lemmings that Disney herded off a cliff to be filmed for a 'documentary'(thus perpetuating in the minds of the public the false concept that lemmings are suicidal).

[ArmySGT.]

So if everybody was killed in the Rain of Death, and all of humanity is aboard the SDF-1...... Who is Gloval talking to on the other end of the radio? Who are the Commanders and Leaders of the UEG he has to report to...... the ones that demand the SDF-1 leave Earth and return to space...... and who are all those people on the ground when the SDF-1 does make it back from Pluto orbit and lands in the water?

[ArmySGT.]

Maybe there is a Mod that can clip this interesting discussion out and place it into a thread of its own?

[taalismn]

So if everybody was killed in the Rain of Death, and all of humanity is aboard the SDF-1...... Who is Gloval talking to on the other end of the radio? Who are the Commanders and Leaders of the UEG he has to report to...... the ones that demand the SDF-1 leave Earth and return to space...... and who are all those people on the ground when the SDF-1 does make it back from Pluto orbit and lands in the water?

Ah...discontinuity disconnect. You're confusing the TV series with the Do You Remember Love? movie. Rain of Death happens AFTER the events you describe in the TV series. It's in DYRL that the SDF-1 returns to Earth to find everybody nuked after the superfortress Folded.

[ArmySGT.]

So humans can't at the end of the 1st Robotech War use Tirolian technology (the SDF-1, the factory satellite, and Zentraedi ships / mecha).

Not "can't use". "Are inexperienced at using/adapting". This, sadly, remains true for much of the rest of the timeline. The Bioroid Interceptor, for instance, needed to be built by the Tirolians.

Yet, the damn thing continues to fly (Well until Khyron comes along).

Now, the can repair the completely alien technology of a starship, and get it operational. So much so, that is it is deemed a fully operational warship and put into service…..

Either the humans can or cannot……….. Personally, I will stick to the narrative from the Robotech rpg from Palladium games and skip all the permutations of this saga or that one… Since their all contradictory anyway.

Humans are not able to build these systems from raw material. Humans have to tear down and recycle Zentraedi ships for their reflex furnaces and fold devices...

Yeah, apparently so... according to RTSC's material, anyway. Humans supposedly lacked the technical prowess to build a reliable fold system, and so resorted to pinching working ones from Zentradi wrecks whenever they could.

I guess that depends on which saga you want to use, which one lends to your game. Again their all contradictory from the get go.

Back to…… Sticking to the RPG narrative…..

Ok, and only 3-4 Zentraedi ships, including Breetai's flagship survive the climactic battle with Dolza's fleet.

Most of those ships are actually on the factory satellite... the only one we see actually operating is Britai's, the rest are shown in the satellite's hangar when Britai first docks there after the station's surrender.

Four million warships go in…. three come out….. Ok so Dolza’s fleet, his stupendously huge base, and all those warships are lost in one explosion……. Breetai’s entire fleet is lost in the engagement except his flagship…….. The Zentraedi warships of the REF fleet come from those that were docked inside the factory satellite presumably for repair………

All tied up neatly with a bow on top……. I just can’t help think about how improbable that can be.

So, how does OSM explain the construction of the Super Dimensional Fortress.... 2 ????

Easy answer... unlike Robotech, where humanity didn't really understand the technology they were working with, and robotechnology was studied by a handful of military scientists in the deepest of secrecy, the research and development of overtechnology in Macross's universe(s) was done by massive, multinational organizations and corporations, and thus humanity ended up understanding not only how to use the alien technology they'd recovered... they understood how that technology worked, the principles behind it, and could do a pretty decent job replicating it.

Yeah, they still missed the software booby-trap buried in the original alien systems of the rebuilt and freshly commissioned SDF-1 Macross, but the onboard systems didn't fail because they were rebuilt improperly... they failed because that booby trap screwed up the workings of a series of interconnected systems (the fold drive, the main gun, and gravity control).

Robotech has the United Earth Forces starting to build their SDF-2 using salvaged components from the SDF-1 in the years following the orbital bombardment (circa 2012-2013). With their developing understanding of the principles on which the alien tech worked, the UN Forces in Macross's universe(s) started building their SDF-2 in 2003, using all-new and human-built systems. The partially-complete warship was retooled into a colony ship following the end of the war in 2010, and was launched in 2012 as the SDF-2 Megaroad-01, the first ship of the Megaroad-class. The UN Spacy went on and built about thirty of those, while also building twelve Macross-class SDFs (SDFN-1 thru 12) to serve as scouting and advance recon craft for the colony fleets. Once they were ready to scale up their colonization efforts, they built far larger variable warships (the New Macross-class battle sections) to protect those ships... and built at least 36 of 'em that we know about thus far. Building fold drives was not an obstacle for Macross's humans, even the original ARMDs were fold capable (but had not had their drives installed yet).

(As a side note, the room that Robotech asserts is the SDF-2's bridge is not anything of the kind... it's actually the New Unified Army Command, a command information center built in the torso block of the now-retired SDF-1 to serve as basically the UN Forces equivalent of the Pentagon and NORAD. The SDF-2 was, at the time, actually being built at the Apollo Base shipyards on the moon.)

So, it just means…….. Which adaptation of the story, and which timeline would I like to choose?

[Seto Kaiba]

Yet, the damn thing continues to fly (Well until Khyron comes along).

Possibly not by choice. Khyron's options were limited by the physical sizes of his dissidents, so reusing old Zentradi mecha even if they're low on stores to operate 'em was the order of the day.

Now, the can repair the completely alien technology of a starship, and get it operational.

With ten years and the brightest minds on the planet... most of whom are dead after things go south... tho, per 2E's Bioroid Interceptor desc on pg122 of the manga size core book, all operational pods were earmarked for use by Breetai's Zentradi UEEF forces (implied to be full size/10m tall, and thus using them in their unmodified state).

Even many years later, humanity apparently needed the involvement of Tirolians to successfully adapt Tirolian tech to work with theirs... resulting in the Bioroid interceptor.

Either the humans can or cannot……….. Personally, I will stick to the narrative from the Robotech rpg from Palladium games

So, "cannot", then?

I guess that depends on which saga you want to use, which one lends to your game. Again their all contradictory from the get go.

Less so than, you'd think... 2E got fairly close to series canon with its core book and Macross Saga sourcebook (entirely on purpose).

Four million warships go in…. three come out….. Ok so Dolza’s fleet, his stupendously huge base, and all those warships are lost in one explosion…….

Yep. The series and RPG are more or less on the same page there. It was the huge discharge of protoculture mass that tipped the Masters off in the first place (~4 million ships going BOOM all at once makes for a hell of a conspicuous event.)

Breetai’s entire fleet is lost in the engagement except his flagship…….. The Zentraedi warships of the REF fleet come from those that were docked inside the factory satellite presumably for repair………

Zentradi warships of the UEEF fleet? I dunno if they actually took any with 'em, but whether the ships we see ended up attached to either force, the answer's yes... tho they may have been garrison ships docking for resupply or newly built.

All tied up neatly with a bow on top……. I just can’t help think about how improbable that can be.

My friend, if you think that's improbable... you ain't seen nothin' yet. There are a LOT of bad headscratchers hidden in the series, comics, and RPG if you know where to look... and I won't even get into the leaked outline for RTSC parts II thru IV.

So, it just means…….. Which adaptation of the story, and which timeline would I like to choose?

Well, a modified Gnerl is an unlikely prospect in most of the different adaptations. Current canon and 2E RPG both have a bunch of new fighters crop up almost right away and Breetai apparently calling dibs on any working pods for his own Expeditionary Force unit. The older RT2 material (now non-canon) just had the UEDF and UEEF keep using VF-1s clear until the new stuff came into service (well into the events of Edwards' insurrection, in the latter case). Macross just had new VF-1 units built at factories in space until the VF-4 was ready a year or so later, etc.

Still, yeah... you're certainly not wanting for variation in the timeline.

[ShadowLogan]

Looking at the UEEF Bioroid Interceptor entry in TSC RPG (manga edition pg122)

"(bit on the BI synthesis of tech)... When the Expeditionary Force's Pioneer Mission left for Tirol, among their ranks were numerous micronized Zentraedi. (bit on leadership and why the Zent. joined up and a new paragraph that starts)..."Throughout the first part of the journey, the Zentraedi had to make do with Fighter Pods and Battle Pods to partake in the defense of the Expeditionary fleet. By the time the fleet had reached Tirol precious few of either of these mecha remained, and Zentraedi pilots where squeezing into Alphas and Betas to fight, designs the aliens did not feel comfortable piloting. (bit on Breetai getting permission to design a new Zent. specific mecha and Tirolian involvement)" The rest talks about the design on pg124-5, but nothing about previous period of use.

It does look like that (for the RPG at least) that the Zentraedi who left with the Pioneer Mission are all micronized and using Zentraedi mecha. For that to work, the Zent. mecha would need to be modified for human crews.

[taalismn]

Converted Gnerl fighter

As development times for the next generation variable fighter began to lengthen, UEEF planners became increasingly worried about having enough available space based craft to ship on the SDF-3 and her sisters. The existing fighters would require a large resupply or didn't carry the amount of firepower/flexibility needed to combat a large Zentraedi presence, and who knew what lay ahead when the fleet arrived at Tirol. A potential replacement or stopgap was needed in case fighter development and production would have to be done outside of the Tirol system on the factory satellite, and the ASC fighters were far better suited to home defense then potential power projection. One planner, Colonel Dolittle of the UEEF Space force, noted that the Factory Satellite had ample amounts of an existing fighter which could be easily produced and employed by both Zentraedi and human pilots. The natural skills of the Quadronos would not go to waste either, since Female Power Armor would no longer be available due to the existing size restrictions. Thus, Dolittle pointed out a refit on the Gnerl. It could be easily refitted to carry 1 or two pilots, and the design would go a long way to fufilling Zentraedi ease at losing their familiar equipment. Thus, the Gnerl 2.0 was born.

Upgrade MDC by 50%, refit particle cannon with a 3 barrel pulse laser from the Female Power Armor. Gun now does 50% more damage then normal, and unit can carry 20% more missiles.

Nice refit and reasonable. Only thing I'd call exception to would be the FPA pulse lasers refit...I'd figure given the Ferrari-like status of those mecha, available spare parts would be reserved for keeping surviving FPAs going(it would be like putting Ferrari tires on a Toyota). On the other hand, you do note that Quadrono pilots would be flying these things as the more sophisticated FPAs break down, they'd naturally want better quality weapons for whatever crates they fly, and servicing and replacing individual weapons systems is generally easier than maintaining an entire integrated vehicle, so a break-even point might be reached where the better quality lasers would be more readily available for the Gnerl platforms.

[Drakenred®™©]

Ok lets stop for a second.

(the source for this is at the link below but its based on Kenneth Olson stuff) Lets review what was shown "On camera" for the Reclamation fleets....(Best guess for total including whatever is "off camera")

8x Neutron S Missiles
1x Izumo Battleship
17x Ikazuchi Class Battlecruisers (22)
60x Garfish Class Cruisers (178)
50x Horizon Class Dropships (202)


viewtopic.php?f=9&t=139025&view=unread#unread

Just to be blunt about the whole thing you ARE NOT gong to get enough people to man that fleet from a remenat population of 70k AND still have several cities scattered all over earth that seem to be decent size AND Still suport the rest of the fleet that was sent off into space And the losses they aparently had in space never mind that the population on earth was a remnant population to start with from not one not two but THREE planetary anilation attacks. So either there was one HELL of a lot of Cloning going on or there was one HELL of a lot of Zentadi brought in, Micronised, and told ok your human now deal with it or theres actualy a lot more time between the story breaks than we were told.

or the simple solution, yes earth got the crap bombed out of it but there were a lot of survivors simply because a lot of the population was not where the Zentradi was shooting in the first place.

[Seto Kaiba]

It does look like that (for the RPG at least) that the Zentraedi who left with the Pioneer Mission are all micronized and using Zentraedi mecha. For that to work, the Zent. mecha would need to be modified for human crews.

Unless they're following the same line as the old Sentinels material, where the Zentradi troops on the Expedition often lived in human size, and sized up before combat.

[Drakenred®™©]

It does look like that (for the RPG at least) that the Zentraedi who left with the Pioneer Mission are all micronized and using Zentraedi mecha. For that to work, the Zent. mecha would need to be modified for human crews.

Unless they're following the same line as the old Sentinels material, where the Zentradi troops on the Expedition often lived in human size, and sized up before combat.

Actualy a simpler solution is that the Zentadi, in part because they HAD miconization chambers, also had designs in there database for mecha variants that could be piloted by Micronised Zentradi, or had something simular to the Bioroid "ball" that could be pluged into an existing battlepod.

Seriously why are we going to weird logical extreems when the obvious Answer is obvious(and yes I know the trio did not use one of the micronian fit pods that they somehow got ahold of to get away, I honestly dont remember how they got ahold of that can someone remind us?)

[Seto Kaiba]

(the source for this is at the link below but its based on Kenneth Olson stuff) Lets review what was shown "On camera" for the Reclamation fleets....(Best guess for total including whatever is "off camera")

The composition of the fleet in the series version of events is rather different from what's in the Shadow Chronicles film, but that count you posted from the series is more or less in line with what the MOSPEADA OSM said about the third recapture fleet... that it was about twice the size of the 2nd that we see at the beginning of the series. So, what we'd expect for a breakdown would be about twice the following:

10 Ikazuchi-class carriers
40 Garfish-class transports/escort carriers
160 Horizont-class descent shuttles

Which is right about in the butter zone for that count.

The Shadow Chronicles movie changes the fleet's composition A LOT, placing greater emphasis on carriers over those shuttles that formed the bulk of the fleet in the series. From the fleet sizes in RTSC thread, my count was 395 ships total, consisting of:

1x SDF-4 Liberator/Izumo
4x Shimakaze-class gunships as escorts
30 identical groupings of:
- 1 Ikazuchi-class carrier
- 12 Garfish-class escort

With three ships missing, the SDF-3, Deucalion, and Icarus.

Just to be blunt about the whole thing you ARE NOT gong to get enough people to man that fleet from a remenat population of 70k AND still have several cities scattered all over earth that seem to be decent size AND Still suport the rest of the fleet that was sent off into space

The fleet's population is, based on the animation, nowhere near as large as the Infopedia stats and RPG would lead one to believe... which is entirely understandable, as the original source material had these ships much smaller and lightly crewed for their size. The invasion fleet in 2044 is supposed to be the vast majority of the UEEF's resources, and with crew sizes scaled down to something more closely resembling the animation, we're talking a few tens of thousands spread out across the entire fleet... and that's assuming all of those fighters are manned, which the series tells us they aren't. Exactly how many of them are Shadow Drones we don't know (OSM material suggests as many as one in five), but the ships in RTSC's footage are visibly operating way below maximum capacity (even by OSM standards), which knocks the number down far lower.

Just to give you an idea how dramatic the difference is in population size when you take the uRRG-induced exaggerations out, if we did a population total for the fleet using Infopedia stats and assuming all fighters are manned, we get (excluding the Izumo and Shimakaze-class ships):

34,920 crew serving on 360 Garfish-class escorts
51,510 crew serving on 30 Ikazuchi-class carriers
----------------------------------------------------
86,430 crew total

Or if we sample that with the reduced crew sizes based on the OSM and animation, the number shrinks dramatically:
16,200 crew serving on 360 Garfish-class escorts
17,010 crew serving on 30 Ikazuchi-class carriers
----------------------------------------------------
33,210 crew total

(It drops by 3,600 if we assume those Ikazuchi-class carriers are operating below capacity the way the animation in RTSC suggests they were.)

Now, considering that the Expeditionary Forces supposedly bred an entire "new generation" of recruits in the 20+ years the fleet was away from Earth, and that said fleet was not built or launched all at once, but instead was built over a period of decades, it's not unreasonable that the Expeditionary Forces were founded from a planet that had just ~70k humans as a starting point.

After all, the New Generation tells us that, after accepting Zentradi and Tirolian survivors from the two preceding Robotech Wars, Earth's population numbered only into the millions. Major metropolitan areas like New York, though mostly intact, had only a few thousand people living in them. The Army of the Southern Cross is made out to be very large in the RPG, but its formations in the series are shown to be fairly small. Naturally, this is because the original show had the army being a fairly small force of just a few tens of thousands of troops protecting a sparsely populated world that only boasted a few smaller cities... which is more or less in line with what Robotech tells us. They needed 17 years just to get enough people to justify having a military academy again.

So either there was one HELL of a lot of Cloning going on or there was one HELL of a lot of Zentadi brought in, Micronised, and told ok your human now deal with it or theres actualy a lot more time between the story breaks than we were told.

Well, part of the problem is that the editors slapping Robotech together did so in a big hurry... the show was made to promote Macross (at Revell's insistence), and everything after that was just so much filler. They had down that the human survivors on Earth were the descendants of the Macross's crew and civilian passengers, and said as much until the series got into the Masters Saga proper... and after that, they were flying blind and adapting material as such a pace they claim they didn't have the time to go home to sleep, let alone check everything for consistency. (It was made as nothing but a toy commercial anyway, so they probably never expected anyone to notice any problems in their work.) Even so, in the New Generation they made sure to give very small stated numbers for Earth's population.

Some fans disagree with that tack, based on some awkward dialogue in "Force of Arms", the continued existence of NYC in the New Generation, etc.... a problem exacerbated by the poorly researched and often blatantly incorrect material that the Infopedia's volunteer researchers talked Harmony Gold into using for their website.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actualy a simpler solution is that the Zentadi, in part because they HAD miconization chambers, also had designs in there database for mecha variants that could be piloted by Micronised Zentradi, or had something simular to the Bioroid "ball" that could be pluged into an existing battlepod.

Unlikely, the Zentradi (before encountering humanity) apparently didn't use the sizing chambers as a matter of course... and thus wouldn't have any need to carry any kind of adapter for their existing mecha. Everything on their ships was sized for a giant's use. The reason I pointed to the old Sentinels material is that it's the only time we actually get to see how the Zentradi who tagged along on the UEEF operated... wherein they apparently had free access to sizing chambers, which they used as need dictated. (Which shows amusing prescience, since that's exactly the same tack that Macross's creators went with years later... living as miclones, and sizing up to operate their mecha when combat was in the offing.)

Seriously why are we going to weird logical extreems when the obvious Answer is obvious(and yes I know the trio did not use one of the micronian fit pods that they somehow got ahold of to get away, I honestly dont remember how they got ahold of that can someone remind us?)

Just because an answer seems obvious does not necessarily mean it's correct where Robotech is concerned. I mean, if we went with the logical and obvious then the whole plot of Shadow Chronicles would be categorically impossible... because the military would never universally adopt an unknown technology supplied by a dubious ally, which nobody in the service understands, and operates in a fashion that clearly does not tally with how it's been explained.

In this case, the "weird, logical extreme" of the Zentradi resizing themselves before and after combat is actually something that has a decent amount of official precedent.

(It's never explained how the trio came by a battle pod, but they seem to have had to install the fittings for the human-size controls themselves, and it's unknown if the system would've been viable for combat use, as they only use it basic maneuvers.)

[Drakenred®™©]

I honestly think the simplest solution is that they did not micronise any Zentradi that they had 'Zentradi sized" Mecha for, that as they phased out Zentadi mecha (or it was lost in combat or due to age) they would then micronise them. Bascialy I suspect that a lot of the crew we see now are actualy either Micronised Zentradi or Children of Micronised Zentradi or Human-Zentrai couples and that by then most people treating them as just "People" for the simple reason that hey for the most part they look like us and we can have kids with them and there not Invid or any of the other races we cant have kids with and or dont look like us.

as for what was left on earth, im in the "between 100,000,000 and 250,000,000 World wide" left after the first bombardment.

NY city survived for whatever reason (posibly the city was not near a major "first strike" hardend military target and may have been largly abandoned after the first war due to Survivors moveing elsewhere for survival/work reasons, durring the second war the Masters probably took one look, saw almost no sign of the Matrix and ignored the hell out of it(or thought oh nice lets take that over when were done if we stay here!)

(honestly though I feel they would have been better served haveing That part of the story be set on some other planet (a Colony set up as a Rest stop to Triol), giving Earth more time to recover but meh.)

Invid probably saw what they saw and more or less did what we saw in that part

NY city itself looking as good as it did may have been part of a ongoing maintenance/preservation/Restoration project.

[Drakenred®™©]

a couple of other points
First:
Fleet size
As a whole I suspect were looking at a Fleet being
1 "SDF" 3-4 or whatever (Basicaly a honkin big ship)
2-3 Groups (Divisions) of
10 Carriers
40 "Garfish"
160 Horizont-class descent shuttles (Each one more or less carrying a "Infantry" company)

Second:
I honestly suspect that considering what has been more or less broadly hinted at the reality is that as far as the fleet itself is concerned, Zentrai-Triolian-Humans are now considered more or less to be the same species due to the "looks like us and we can at least try to get eachother pregnant" rule. (I personaly blame Star Trec for that mess but thats another rant)

This leads to Third:
I honestly think that by now the "Human Fleet" would logicaly compose of at least three Fleets each of which has 2-3 Divisions. one Fleet is based on/Around the SDF 3 one around the SDF 4, and posibly another fleet. its also posible that there are "Independant Divsions" (Can I please just start calling them Task forces it would be a hell of a lot more accuate from my point of view. shesh)

the reason why I personaly feel that we have at least 2 Fleets and who knows how many independant divisions like that is due in part to the fact that we either Did or Did not also find time and resources of some kind to ....

A)Have some kind of Campain with some of the aliens out there.

D)also have some level of Civil War between 2 of the "Human Fleet" factions.

C) Also send back what was still a decent sized chunk of the fleet back to eath while

D) still keeping or building up a decent sized fleet back on earth.

E) and Built and maned and maintained more than one Outpost between Earth and Triol and who knows wherelse that we build up out there

F) also managed to somehow build up a logistical base to suport all of this!

Honestly at this point either we have been bumping bits like bunnys on Pregancy meds all of that time,
or
I was being too conservative with my estimate of how many people were left on earth
or
Robotech is basicaly Replicator Tech in that it can also magicaly make all things posible
or
the Definition of human expaned to include micronized Zentradi and Triolians suffering from FOL withdrawal
or
The timelines are all wrong by a couple of decades
or
Some combination of the above.

[ShadowLogan]

Unless they're following the same line as the old Sentinels material, where the Zentradi troops on the Expedition often lived in human size, and sized up before combat.

That's never been the line in any of the Sentinel material I am familiar with. The 1E RPG kept them at micro-size w/new mecha, even the Novels state the Zent are micro using modified pods before being returned to full-size to act as miners on Fantoma. No constant size jumping.

Re-sizing in RT is a time consuming process making it's use before combat questionable (not all your pilots then are available for an emergency should you need them). Then you have to consider the Protoculture that would be used in this constant back-forth re-sizing. Earth's supply was limited and it may be more cost effective to simply keep the Zent. at human size and modify their old mecha for their new size.

(It's never explained how the trio came by a battle pod, but they seem to have had to install the fittings for the human-size controls themselves, and it's unknown if the system would've been viable for combat use, as they only use it basic maneuvers.)

Basic maneuvers that include blasting a hole in the SDF-1 hull. So they could definitely use the weapon systems. Should also consider that with more experience/training/practice a crew likely could handle combat w/o difficulty.

I honestly dont remember how they got ahold of that can someone remind us?)

The only explanation I know of comes from the Novels, where they where given a special Protoculture chip that manufactured the pod for them. Outside of the Novel-verse though, it's not ever explained in the show.

[Sgt Anjay]

Some fans disagree with that tack, based on some awkward dialogue in "Force of Arms", the continued existence of NYC in the New Generation, etc

And the fact there’s no real hard evidence they meant there to only be 70K survivors.

the military would never universally adopt an unknown technology supplied by a dubious ally

There was evidence they were “dubious” prior to their betrayal? The Haydonites were one art of an alliance that stood by the Expeditionary Forces. Even Edwards apparently trusted them, and he was more keyed than anyone not to.

In this case, the "weird, logical extreme" of the Zentradi resizing themselves before and after combat is actually something that has a decent amount of official precedent.

Precedent where?

[sirkermittsg]

so:

1. the UEEF had access to cloning....and but the shows does not say they actually did it.
2. there were zentraedi present on the mission and on the factory sattelites which the UEEF used....

I posit that perhaps allot of the crews of thouse ships were zentraedi or half zentraedi. I don't recall specific lines in the show that said all of the zent ships were destroyed in the first war. consider that each factory that the UEEF captured had garrisons that included potentially several ships.

even if it was just bretai's ship and the factories and their garrisons, we are still talking about potentially hundreds of thousands of zentraedi troops that joined the UEEF.

[ArmySGT.]

So you have Cloning chambers............ Doesn't mean that what went in is cloned material............ Enter a fertilized egg, stop the process when you have an infant. Give the infant to the donating parents, or into a youth creche (Friday by Heinlein, or the movie Soldier).

Thus one human couple could have several children in one year.

[sirkermittsg]

So you have Cloning chambers............ Doesn't mean that what went in is cloned material............ Enter a fertilized egg, stop the process when you have an infant. Give the infant to the donating parents, or into a youth creche (Friday by Heinlein, or the movie Soldier).

Thus one human couple could have several children in one year.

this actually makes sense. however, some questions come up:

1. how do you handle it if the child does not want to become a part of the UEEF?

2. where are they gonna get supplies such as food from? as they build new ships and have new kids they will eventually need supplies to build the ships and feed the crews.

[ArmySGT.]

So you have Cloning chambers............ Doesn't mean that what went in is cloned material............ Enter a fertilized egg, stop the process when you have an infant. Give the infant to the donating parents, or into a youth creche (Friday by Heinlein, or the movie Soldier).

Thus one human couple could have several children in one year.

this actually makes sense. however, some questions come up:

1. how do you handle it if the child does not want to become a part of the UEEF?

Typically for every soldier there is 10 support personnel. There is a need for a massive civilian support structure to run powerplants, shipyards, and hospitals; not to mention a huge need for scientists of every discipline for all the new things discovered once humans venture into space.

So if the government is inclined toward democracy or totalitarianism, there is plenty to do for the noncombat sorts.

2. where are they gonna get supplies such as food from? as they build new ships and have new kids they will eventually need supplies to build the ships and feed the crews.

I am sure that growing crops is a priority. Look at Saudi Arabia with Google Earth. You will see the terrain is being transformed.

[taalismn]

Why even bother with pilots for converted Gnerls? Back when Earth was fully populated in the billion+ range, it was cheaper to put living pilots in cockpits than expensive AIs. If you're counting lives with regards to preserving genetic diversity, suddenly, post-Rain, it becomes economical to build AIs(especially if you're already building VFs)...If you're not concerned about pilot efficiency, reprogram QF Ghost AIs, install them in your surplus Gnerls, use the space savings to add reaction mass or armament or avionics, and use them as disposable drone fighters.
Failing that, recycle Gnerl propulsion thrusters into stopgap generation long range anti-spacecraft cruise missiles.

[Seto Kaiba]

the military would never universally adopt an unknown technology supplied by a dubious ally

There was evidence they were “dubious” prior to their betrayal? The Haydonites were one art of an alliance that stood by the Expeditionary Forces. Even Edwards apparently trusted them, and he was more keyed than anyone not to.

Yes... both Dr. Lang and Dr. Nichols expressed concern over the fact that they didn't frigging understand how that "Shadow technology" worked. Louie has a whole scene in RTSC devoted to explaining to Janice how none of the Haydonite-supplied explanations tally with the reality of how those weapons operate (obvious discrepancies).

In this case, the "weird, logical extreme" of the Zentradi resizing themselves before and after combat is actually something that has a decent amount of official precedent.

Precedent where?[/quote]
Macross, for one. The old Sentinels comics, for two.

1. how do you handle it if the child does not want to become a part of the UEEF?

By all accounts (incl. the RPG), there doesn't seem to be a hell of a lot for children born in space to do except sign up for the UEEF. RTSC asserts that humanity took a stab at space colonization, and that the UEEF was supposed to scout around for places to colonize, but thus far there's no concrete evidence to suggest they established any extrasolar colonies. The entire affair has only ever been shown with ONE non-military individual... Minmei the stowaway. Even KYLE joined up, tho he did it to stalk Minmei.

2. where are they gonna get supplies such as food from? as they build new ships and have new kids they will eventually need supplies to build the ships and feed the crews.

Chemical reprocessing of waste? Maybe they pinched a Zentradi ration-making factory satellite while they were at it... the colossal flasks of liquor and man-sized drumsticks came from SOMEWHERE.

Why even bother with pilots for converted Gnerls. Back when Earth was fully populated in the billion+ range, it was cheaper to put living pilots in cockpits than expensive AIs. If you're counting lives with regards to preserving genetic diversity, suddenly, post-Rain, it becomes economical to build AIs(especially if you're already building VFs)...If you're not concerned about pilot efficiency, reprogram QF Ghost AIs, install them in your surplus Gnerls, use the space savings to add reaction mass or armament or avionics, and use them as disposable drone fighters.
Failing that, recycle Gnerl propulsion thrusters into stopgap generation long range anti-spacecraft cruise missiles.

*headscratches* That's... that works SO freaking well. I like it.

[Sgt Anjay]

the military would never universally adopt an unknown technology supplied by a dubious ally

There was evidence they were “dubious” prior to their betrayal? The Haydonites were one art of an alliance that stood by the Expeditionary Forces. Even Edwards apparently trusted them, and he was more keyed than anyone not to.

Yes... both Dr. Lang and Dr. Nichols expressed concern over the fact that they didn't frigging understand how that "Shadow technology" worked. Louie has a whole scene in RTSC devoted to explaining to Janice how none of the Haydonite-supplied explanations tally with the reality of how those weapons operate (obvious discrepancies).

That isn't evidence they were dubious prior to their betrayal. There's nothing showing the Haydonites did anything untoward before the shadow tech sabotage...which is why their shadow tech was trusted, allowing them to sabotage it. They apparently had been so above board prior to that, even Earth First Edwards trusted them.

In this case, the "weird, logical extreme" of the Zentradi resizing themselves before and after combat is actually something that has a decent amount of official precedent.

Precedent where?

Macross, for one. The old Sentinels comics, for two.

No, really, illuminate me. In what episode, what issue, do we see Zentraedi resize themselves for the purpose of entering combat, then change their size once more when combat is over?

[taalismn]

QF- Gnerls; send them out ahead of your manned squadrons as penetration aides to soak up enemy fire(even if the enemy sees through any EW jamming they're putting out). Indeed, stuff them full of EW gear to become BIGGER and MULTIPLE targets.
Draft arcade kiddies to help program them(it worked in 'Ender's Game', no?"
Hell, program and equip them to kamikaze if you don't plan on having them come back with you.
If you're careful, you keep your own forces clear so if the QFGs go rabid, you're not looking at friendly fire kills. And if you lose them, you're denying the Malcontents their use. And their loss means you can petition for more mecha in the next round of budget appropriations.