Fantasy Plans From Kevin

[Goliath Strongarm]

. I have to say that it stands to reason that if you don't put product out for a game line that eventually that game will, over time, loose many of its supporters.

Which is the argument some of us old timers use when we hear the excuse (it's not a reason, it's an EXCUSE!) "RIFTs pays the bills!". Of course it does- they put out product for it! The other games don't get product, so why would those fans be contributing money? Instead, what happens? People drift off, and leave, giving the money to companies like WOTC, because they publish books.

At this point, I'm just waiting for the day that Kevin announces (officially) that PF is dead, and there will be no new product. And that they'll be giving up the other games, one by one, to focus on RIFTs. More and more you hear RIFTs books used to answer questions in PF... yet we still have the "is it really megaversal, if rules are in one setting but not another?".

What happens when we have someone actually writing material for PF? Let's look at Bill Coffin. Where's he? Where's Mark Hall? Not to mention the complaints of Kevin's "edits" that become rewrites, half destroying what the author wrote, making sure to give himself a co-author status.

Going on 4 years for MoM2. 11 for LoD3. 18 for Old Kingdom books (both were supposed to be out in 1995).

I LOVE PF. I don't love PB, or the way Kevin runs it. Kevin created an AWESOME setting. Hell, a few awesome settings! But, sometimes I wonder if he's like a kid, who drops his old toy (like PF) and focuses on the new, shiney toy (RIFTs) as his new "favorite"

[Goliath Strongarm]

I think they could release a 3rd edition of all the books.

No. No no no! Let me explain- I've bought every book for 1st edition. I have every book through LoD1 for second edition. I am NOT buying a third edition. I don't even want a PF ultimate edition, because we don't need it. We have a handful of rules in other books, but not as bad as Rifts was/is.

Now, as far as redoing all the info, and expanding the books, we have the Rifter, or they cpuld simply do PDF "expansion packs' for various books. I'd can see paying 2.50 for another 15-20 pages of 'bonus" material. Maybe some additional towns and MAPS, with an adventure or two. How about NPCs?

But, I refuse to spend money on another edition. #1) I don't have the money right now. And as the economy struggles to recover, I'm not the only one. #2) I've forked over enough money already that I expect continued support, not an expectation of me shelling out another 200+ dollars to get the support I already SHOULD have.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I think the books should be updated to second edition and the other settings finished before anyone even suggests updating to third edition.

[zyanitevp]

Not exactly true, Dice-of-Doom. Palladium HAD great production value and quality back when they were at the top, it's just that they totally fell behind the other successful companies in the marketplace and haven't been able to adapt.

As for caring for their fanbase, unlike those big, bad, unfeeling 'other' companies. Really? Do you know the difference between those companies and Palladium? Those companies release products.

Wow, a bit biased myself, so I won't give you my long, full of feeling response, but, if you really feel that way, why are you even here?

Easha was stating something that a lot (not all) of us feel, to a degree.

If you're not a RIFTs player, but a fan of one of the other settings, it's a fact- we're ignored. Look at releases, look at "coming" books (but only the ones that actually have a shot at being published). If you're not a RIFTs person, expect a book every few years. Maybe. If you're lucky. We're at what, a couple of months from 4 years for a PF book? Mysteries of Magic was the last one. And that was supposed to be 1 of 3. Where's #2? And what about the last one before that? It's been over a decade since LoD2, and we still don't have 3 (and you can't blame the author). How are PF fans supposed to feel? How are we SUPPOSED to think that the company feels about us? How about BtS fans? How long do THEY wait between books?

People like Easha, and some of the rest of us, are here because we ARE fans. PF is my FAVORITE fantasy setting. Period. Always has been, probably always will be. Are there flaws in the system? Absolutely- just as with ANY system.

But Easha was spot on, that the companies that get called "unfeeling" do release material. And if they have multiple games and/or settings, they keep releases flowing for ALL of them, or with material that can be used (easily) in multiple ones. Why? Because that way, if I'm a fan of ONE, I can still get material. I won't buy product I won't use. Especially in an economy like our current one. That's why I don't have a buttload of RIFTs books (although, honestly, I do have more than I'd use, because of gifts and used ones found cheap). But, without PF books, why would palladium get my money? I could go spend that money and get material for the games that are #2 and 3 on my list.

As for the quality of their material- Here I think Easha was being harsh. Palladium DOES put out decent material, especially since they are usually cheaper in price than other companies. I give it about a 6.5/10. Now, since I can only speak of the PF books with any decent authority on this, here's why: Editing has gotten sloppy. Books brought over from 1st ed updated to 2nd had HORRIBLE editing. Very VERY little was actually corrected, and most updates simply added SDC and PPE to NPCs and spells. Various words throughout several books are like half-bolded (and sometimes off set), where it looks like they were whited out and typed back in, with a heavier ink (look at the intro story in Nimro. Or all through the main book. And many, many others). And how many of us have had a pile of the glossy film from the covers? The biggest redeeming aspect is the QUALITY OF THE CONTENT.

But, if there's nothing for a fan of a setting, they don't even get that.

Well said, and while I don't agree with everything you said, I can definitely see your points. Thanks.

[Cinos]

I'd want a 3rd Edition ONLY if they can get a mechanically sound and engaging game out of it with interesting game play beyond role playing (I can get role playing from any game honestly). Since I don't trust them to do more then the most basic of clean ups and rule mergers, I'd much rather see them get things into 2nd Edition (which honestly shouldn't be that hard to get Yin-Sloth ready to go, it's an editors job perhaps a month to brush that thing up?), and more hopefully finish releasing the remainder of the world with Old Kingdom, South Wind and such, then LoD3 (As much as I loved LoD1/2, I would have rather that effort gone into Old Kingdom / South Wind, High level stuff is fun, but a full world is better). If I'm really asking for a Christmas miracle, Coffin would get back in this, but I can't have everything I guess.

[jade von delioch]

My personal feeling are that we will not see much movement on fantasy or a good readdressing of the rules until Kevin is no longer in the picture. Everyone who is a fan of palladium knows how things are done at Palladium books and why things take forever to get out and why some stuff gets passed up for others. Its a bad business model and one that wont go away until Kevin is gone. Its sad but true.

On top of this, can we even say that "Rifts pays the bills" anymore? I mean, the company went nearly bankrupt if not for the fans. And now Kevin has starter to look and use Kickstarter for crowdfunding. How does it pay the bills again?

[Eashamahel]

Wow, a bit biased myself, so I won't give you my long, full of feeling response, but, if you really feel that way, why are you even here?

Probably because I really like Palladium's products, am enjoying interacting with the community (forgot I made an account on here a few years ago), and like to read other people's ideas. What I said wasn't supposed to be insulting, sorry if it got you riled up, but I'm not attacking PB, so don't feel like you need to defend them from me.

I like Rifts books, I like the style of most of them, they are pretty good. I liked their style the first time I read Wormwood more than a decade ago, and I still like it now, but they have fallen way behind the industry leaders, the books are done in the exact same way, which is fine, but let's not pretend they are awesome. As I think someone else said, a solid 6/10. That's not a hit against them, they used to be 9/10, only lacking in extravagence, like hard cover and colour or high quality paper, but the scale has moved forward.

And the reason I say I like 'Rifts' books is because, for all intents and purposes, PF is a system in total limbo. It's not dead only because no one has officially called the T.O.D., and no one ever will. There is no advantage to Palladium to stop producing the line, or officially cancel it, and I know people hold out hope that eventually KS will pass it along to some other talented writer to run with, either before or after he retires, but it's probably never going to happen.

Still, it's nice to see that KS has 'plans' for Fantasy, if nothing else I am glad he has enthusiasm, because it means that he still wants to make something happen. It may never amount to much (especially not a L.O.D. 3), but at least there is potential.

Going on 4 years for MoM2.

Oh man, that hurts. I remember being super excited about that book, I was planning on getting both of them, since the second one was about necromancers and witches and dark magic or some such. Four years already, huh? That's sad, I would love to just be able to read it. To anyone listening! If you produce product it will generate revenue! Here me, oh publishing gods!!

[Braden Campbell]

I pitched a Fantasy idea to Kevin during Anime North, which he loved. I will try to get a fleshed-out, one page synopsis completed and in to him as soon as possible, and we'll see how it goes from there.

Also, Wayne could use some quality Fantasy articles for the next two Rifters, seeing how it's the game's 30th Anniversary and all. So, if you have some good stuff, send it in!

[Prysus]

I pitched a Fantasy idea to Kevin during Anime North, which he loved. I will try to get a fleshed-out, one page synopsis completed and in to him as soon as possible, and we'll see how it goes from there.

Greetings and Salutations. That reminds me ... I wanted to ask you a question about something. I'll be sending a PM shortly (like right after I finish this message). I'm making this post primarily just in case you don't get it (like a full message box or something).

Also, Wayne could use some quality Fantasy articles for the next two Rifters, seeing how it's the game's 30th Anniversary and all. So, if you have some good stuff, send it in!

Working on that.

All right, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Juce734]

I am upset that there isn't any urgency to capitalize on the 30 year anniversary of Palladium Fantasy. Doesn't make sense to me at all! Why would I believe that in year 31 they will be releasing multiple PF books?

smh

[Tyberius]

Is the Old Kingdom river correct in this map? Looks a little short.

[zyanitevp]

I pitched a Fantasy idea to Kevin during Anime North, which he loved. I will try to get a fleshed-out, one page synopsis completed and in to him as soon as possible, and we'll see how it goes from there.

Also, Wayne could use some quality Fantasy articles for the next two Rifters, seeing how it's the game's 30th Anniversary and all. So, if you have some good stuff, send it in!

Great news Braden! Would love to see anything at this point!

[The Dark Elf]

I am upset that there isn't any urgency to capitalize on the 30 year anniversary of Palladium Fantasy. Doesn't make sense to me at all! Why would I believe that in year 31 they will be releasing multiple PF books?

smh

Agree.

And unless the line is continued then an anniversary isnt really a celebration more a memorial day (like a deceased loved ones birthday). It hate when people say (for e.g.) " celebrating 50 years of the Beatles" - No, they began 50 years ago but havent released anything new for ages.

[Majestic]

I would actually like to propose a "dimension book" series for Fantasy that would detail some of the realms mentioned in Library of Bletherad (starting with Jeretlan).

I second that...and think a GM/player-devoted website for the Land of the South Winds should be produced, just to share additional ideas and artwork.

GMPhD

I feel like I'm getting one of those with PFRPG. As a newcomer to the game, I'm constantly jumping from book to book, copying notes and combining hints and ideas just to put together an adventure. I think Palladium Books GMs do enough research to receive a PhD after a few years.

[Majestic]

I think they could release a 3rd edition of all the books.

I think this is a very good idea!

Now, as far as redoing all the info, and expanding the books, we have the Rifter, or they cpuld simply do PDF "expansion packs' for various books. I'd can see paying 2.50 for another 15-20 pages of 'bonus" material. Maybe some additional towns and MAPS, with an adventure or two. How about NPCs?

I think this is a very, very good idea!

So combine them: let's see 3rd edition rules in PDF format. That way, items can be "cleaned up" and reconfigured, making the format of the texts more organized, getting rid of typos and misprints - "Is that a giant New Courier font 'n' with those barracks?" - and providing some tidbits of new information in the world we love.

I pitched a Fantasy idea to Kevin during Anime North, which he loved. I will try to get a fleshed-out, one page synopsis completed and in to him as soon as possible, and we'll see how it goes from there.

I think this is a very, very, VERY good idea! And one I'm going to try as well. I have NEVER played PFRPG nor have I ever watched anyone play it. I'm a HU2 fan, if anything, but I saw the call amidst a weekly update and will try to "flesh-out" an adventure storyline for PFRPG 2E. Right now, the outline is large enough to fit into six portions/adventures. I may be a poor author but to quote the WWII war bonds adverts, "I'm doing my part."

Everyone who is a fan of palladium knows how things are done at Palladium books and why things take forever to get out and why some stuff gets passed up for others. Its a bad business model and one that wont go away until Kevin is gone. Its sad but true.

This comment puts a lump in my throat and I say that as a business professor, not just a PB fan.

The bottom line, no pun intended, is that PB is/has growing pains and has not managed it as delicately as other companies. Most small companies start to stretch their resources as they get larger; the earlier simple model doesn't work any longer as more product lines and more customers seek the demands of the business. What is true about the "bad business model" comment is that PB's resources - personnel, materials, time - are too stretched and prohibit timely book releases across the product areas.

Typically, though not always, to meet the growing product offering and customer demands, employees become "captains" or "overseers" of individual product lines. So "Person A" is in charge of editing/revising PFRPG and Splicers, "Person B" is in charge of Robotech and Beyond the Supernatural/Ninjas and Superspies. And so on. Gleba, Coffin, Bellaire and others are great candidates for this.

As someone pointed out earlier, Kevin likes to put his stamp on every product released. That is his prerogative as the owner and CEO of Palladium Books. But he is only one person, albeit with a talented mind and passion for gaming. And RIFTS truly is an awesome playing field and idea...even if it only sometimes "pays the bills." The frustrated fans in this thread and others are justified; no loyal customer would be happy with an 18 year (and counting) delay for a product release.

I think it's going to be up to us to create an unofficial repository to enhance and promote the Palladium Fantasy RPG (# edition). Maybe with enough great ideas through Rifter submissions, a dedicated forum or a website this could happen. But with someone as stretched as Kevin, either the organization structure has to change or he has to be overwhelmed with a showering of cool ideas from the fanbase.

Either way, I support Palladium Books whether Kevin is in charge or otherwise and would like to help with ideas, writing, editiing, artwork, Kickstarter-backing and the like with the PFRPG product line...if you'll have me.

[The Dark Elf]

I would actually like to propose a "dimension book" series for Fantasy that would detail some of the realms mentioned in Library of Bletherad (starting with Jeretlan).

I took my players through every continent in Regnum. As it was highly magical they were high levels.

Maybe introduce its mirrored twin here on Earth, the Kerguelen Islands.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kergue ... a=N&tab=lw

[Eashamahel]

I think one thing that might be overlooked in the wishing for a third edition is the problem of competition.

Right now, Palladium fantasy, well actually, it basically doesn't exist in the marketplace. BUT! Lets say that Palladium fantasy actually started putting out some books, like one or two a year. They would be putting out books to their existing market, who is interested in new titles. They aren't really in competition with anything, they are just their own niche entity.

HOWEVER. If Palladium Fantasy launched a third edition, which would be a massive undertaking of time and money, they would HAVE to step up and compete with Pathfinder and D&D v.4, something that I have ABSOLUTELY NO CONFIDENCE they could do.

So, either keep putting out books that have an established fanbase to purchase them, or take a step into the 'big leagues' and actually try and compete.

[The Dark Elf]

I think one thing that might be overlooked in the wishing for a third edition is the problem of competition.

Right now, Palladium fantasy, well actually, it basically doesn't exist in the marketplace. BUT! Lets say that Palladium fantasy actually started putting out some books, like one or two a year. They would be putting out books to their existing market, who is interested in new titles. They aren't really in competition with anything, they are just their own niche entity.

HOWEVER. If Palladium Fantasy launched a third edition, which would be a massive undertaking of time and money, they would HAVE to step up and compete with Pathfinder and D&D v.4, something that I have ABSOLUTELY NO CONFIDENCE they could do.

So, either keep putting out books that have an established fanbase to purchase them, or take a step into the 'big leagues' and actually try and compete.

Totally agree. Third option is do nothing and concentrate your resources on profitable efforts.

[Eashamahel]

Well, I think that 'third option' is actually what they are doing right now, doing nothing (on Palladium Fantasy) and concentrating on Profitable (RIFTS) endeavors.

The second option, the launching of a 3rd edition, is not reasonable in my opinion, and my explanation is above.

The option they are not currently pursuing which they actually could would be to just continue the current fantasy line, which would see Palladium put out some Fantasy books. It's the most likely to occur (that or just wait 3 more years without any released books and declare the line effectively dead).

[Stone Gargoyle]

The drawback of not putting forth new product is also that the books exist both online and offline for sale at less than cover price due to used editions being available through book stores and websites such as Amazon Books. The longer they continue to not put out new books or updated editions, the more people will resort to buying the books for cheaper than the publisher sells the new editions for, because why should someone buy a new book when they can get it for less, especially when the line is not really being supported.

[Eashamahel]

That's probably a very true point. I am currently looking to pick up several RIFTS titles and Rifters, and might just get the majority of the Palladium Fantasy books I am interested in, but they will almost totally come from the 'used' bin in game shops (or online, if I can find them with good shipping). Years of being a nearly 'dead' system have seen many people slowly sell off their collections.

[The Dark Elf]

Most of my rifts book are second hand but I waited for perfect condition sales. Why pay new price for 25 year old product!

[Eashamahel]

Yep, exactly what I was thinking. The only time something like that makes sense is when what you are looking to purchase is a collectors item or rare for some reason.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Why pay new price for 25 year old product!

Exactly my point. A lot of the books I buy are for source material which constitute less than 10% of the total book, so I am not inclined to pay full price if I can help it. My income is also severely limited at the moment.

[Eashamahel]

For me, the Palladium Fantasy main book (when I was planning on picking it up) was just for the OCCs. I have everything else I need from the system in the form of other titles. I don't need the Palladium rules (again), don't need another copy of the races, don't need the list of skills, or magic or psychic powers. There is just so much overlap that much of the book to me is just not worth it.