Zentraedi Gnerl fighter (REF refit)

[ShadowLogan]

This is, of course, an assertion based on the specious assumption that technology developed for Janice would have been suitable or economical enough for use in an unmanned combat mecha.

JANICE does learn to use mecha, so I don't see how Janice AI would not have been suitable for adaption into a mecha (so it is suitable).

Economics is a bit murky. To many variables go into determining if it would be economically viable like: raw materials (availability), production time, production cost, production run.

If that's a problem with the OSM, it's a problem for the official Robotech material too...

It's only a problem for the official Robotech material if they look to the OSM for guidance instead of doing the leg work themselves instead of trying to shoe-horn in material from different shows (or fanfic) without much consideration for other established periods.

Too bad Macek didn't create any inter-saga interactions (via juxtaposing) out of the footage back in '85. The closest we get is scenes spliced in (and one whole sale scene order), but no true interaction until new Animation is created (Sent, even then we have TMS footage spliced in passively that it was cut in a recent release). And I doubt HG would want to try something like that now with the footage to create new episodes to slide in as part of the 85ep.

You can disagree all you like, but it won't change the simple truth that Robotech does not keep faith with real-world precedents in technology or military affairs. There are plenty of in-universe acknowledgements of bad design choices too, like the Spartas hover tank's open cockpit. The steady deterioration of capability in each subsequent generation of mecha is another great example.

Actually the Spartas open cockpit is a known feature on some Tank Destroyers in WW2 (a type of tank). And the VHT-1 has several features one sees in Tank Destroyers (open cockpit, lack of turret, though IIRC not together), over main battle tanks (with their enclosed cabins, turreted guns) of today.

The steady deterioration of capability though is forced by their adherence to the OSM, which they don't have to go with it. They certainly can change the performance numbers, mass, and some of the overall capabilities of a mecha should they want to. Its not like performance numbers, mass figures, and full capabilities of a mecha get discussed in the show which would leave them room to go with something different that looks more progressive as oppose to a forced decline ('cause their capabilities have to be related to their popularity).

[glitterboy2098]

You can disagree all you like, but it won't change the simple truth that Robotech does not keep faith with real-world precedents in technology or military affairs. There are plenty of in-universe acknowledgements of bad design choices too, like the Spartas hover tank's open cockpit. The steady deterioration of capability in each subsequent generation of mecha is another great example.

Actually the Spartas open cockpit is a known feature on some Tank Destroyers in WW2 (a type of tank). And the VHT-1 has several features one sees in Tank Destroyers (open cockpit, lack of turret, though IIRC not together), over main battle tanks (with their enclosed cabins, turreted guns) of today.

The steady deterioration of capability though is forced by their adherence to the OSM, which they don't have to go with it. They certainly can change the performance numbers, mass, and some of the overall capabilities of a mecha should they want to. Its not like performance numbers, mass figures, and full capabilities of a mecha get discussed in the show which would leave them room to go with something different that looks more progressive as oppose to a forced decline ('cause their capabilities have to be related to their popularity).

Panzerjager I had both.
as did the Marder I, Marder II, Marder III, the RSO.2F/Pak40, and the american M3 Gun Motor Carriage. the M6 Fargo didn't even have armor.
the later American tank destroyers (the M10, M18, and M36) were considered odd in that they actually had turrets.. they were open topped only to keep the size of the turret small given the issues of loading the big gun.
the enclosed casemated designs were originally only used by russians.. made by the simple expedient of being able to fit a anti-tank gun into the hull of the existing T-34 or T-70 tank design with minimal modification. later they developed the ISU-122 based on the same principle, using the IS-2 heavy tank as their chassis.
the British Deacon was similar to the M3 GMC above, an anti-tank gun on a truck, and the Archer had the unique trait of having it's gun facing the rear.

most tank destroyers were actually open topped and had casemated guns.

[ArmySGT.]

You can disagree all you like, but it won't change the simple truth that Robotech does not keep faith with real-world precedents in technology or military affairs. There are plenty of in-universe acknowledgements of bad design choices too, like the Spartas hover tank's open cockpit. The steady deterioration of capability in each subsequent generation of mecha is another great example.

Actually the Spartas open cockpit is a known feature on some Tank Destroyers in WW2 (a type of tank). And the VHT-1 has several features one sees in Tank Destroyers (open cockpit, lack of turret, though IIRC not together), over main battle tanks (with their enclosed cabins, turreted guns) of today.

The steady deterioration of capability though is forced by their adherence to the OSM, which they don't have to go with it. They certainly can change the performance numbers, mass, and some of the overall capabilities of a mecha should they want to. Its not like performance numbers, mass figures, and full capabilities of a mecha get discussed in the show which would leave them room to go with something different that looks more progressive as oppose to a forced decline ('cause their capabilities have to be related to their popularity).

Panzerjager I had both.
as did the Marder I, Marder II, Marder III, the RSO.2F/Pak40, and the american M3 Gun Motor Carriage. the M6 Fargo didn't even have armor.
the later American tank destroyers (the M10, M18, and M36) were considered odd in that they actually had turrets.. they were open topped only to keep the size of the turret small given the issues of loading the big gun.
the enclosed casemated designs were originally only used by russians.. made by the simple expedient of being able to fit a anti-tank gun into the hull of the existing T-34 or T-70 tank design with minimal modification. later they developed the ISU-122 based on the same principle, using the IS-2 heavy tank as their chassis.
the British Deacon was similar to the M3 GMC above, an anti-tank gun on a truck, and the Archer had the unique trait of having it's gun facing the rear.

most tank destroyers were actually open topped and had casemated guns.

True, which is the reason for their obsolescence. The open top was a necessity for the crew to operate a large caliber shoe horned into a smaller chassis. Secondly, for the crew to observe and act quickly to engage enemy tanks. Unfortunately for the AT gun crews as soon as an enemy tank was in range, most often they were too. The final demise for the open topped AT gun was the American Variable Time fuse. The VT fuse meant all the artillery shells detonated several meters above the ground maximizing the rounds performance. Fragments were not just coming from the side because of near detonations of impact fuzed rounds.

Bring that forward to the year 2000. VT fuse is the common fuse for artillery, and along has come bomblets delivered by artillery, rocket, and aircraft. Several missiles, notably Bofors "Bill", are top attack, meaning the warhead detonated above the target vehicle were the armor is presumably weaker.

[ArmySGT.]

Actually the Robotech mecha improve in performance based on the RPG stats. A up armored Silverback has almost the same armor and firepower as a VF-1, and more speed then the hovertank or 1st Gen Destroids. The Beta is tougher then a VF-1 or any of the Destroids, carries far more missiles, and can achieve earth orbit without a booster pack. The VF-1's major advantage is flight speed. Southern Cross gets the boot because they didn't have the resources available for better fighters or mecha design, and yet their best equipment (The Spartas and the AGACS) equals the VF-1R (again with the exception of flight speed) in firepower, armor, versatility, and applicability against their common foe. You have to take each generation's enemies for what the mecha were designed for.

Zentraedi-Massive space fleet, large warriors, wave attacks, heavy particle beam use with knockdown Destroids and VF-1s are heavily dependent on reusable munitions, while energy weapons are long range but relatively slow firing. After losing their space advantage, the Zentraedi become heavily depedent on guerilla tactics and lose again and again, especially as the new Southern Cross mecha and army takes over.

Robotech Masters-The Bioroids are faster against ground mecha and vehicles, but their sleds are sitting ducks for AGACS or space fighters in flight mode. The dropships are the equalizer in combat against the combined arms approach of the Southern Cross. In addition, the Southern Cross Battloids combined with terrain specific infantry can crush most Bioroid deployments. Add in the mobility/firepower/toughness of ASC hovertanks, and the masters get a nasty fight on their hands, even though they have better overall numbers and mobility.

Invid-The Invid just hammer a target until it dies, and do so in the most efficient manner possible, mass wave attacks using overwhelming force and numbers. Everything they have is flight capable, can be reproduced in a number of hours, and they can create new warriors out of enemy mecha and their pilots via the Genesis pits. Oh, and the Regess is intelligent enough to create command units with highly intelligent pilots that can fight the latest in UEEF tech. The Alphas and Betas carry large amounts of short range missiles to fight off massive fighter scout attacks, use Shadow Cloaking devices to prevent the Invid from targeting them via Protoculture sense, and support fast moving mobile troops in transformable Cyclones that equal Shocktroopers or scouts in firepower. Southern Cross mech can also fight the Invid on equal terms, they just never had a chance after fighting off the Masters.

Wow. Very nice write up but, I disagree with 90% or more of your argument.

[Seto Kaiba]

JANICE does learn to use mecha, [...]

In potentially (or explicitly) non-applicable sources... which therefore cannot be taken as entirely reliable.

It's only a problem for the official Robotech material if they look to the OSM for guidance instead of doing the leg work themselves instead of trying to shoe-horn in material from different shows (or fanfic) without much consideration for other established periods.

Yet it's the Masters Saga, where the stats are almost entirely not based on the OSM, where this crops up the most.

Too bad Macek didn't create any inter-saga interactions (via juxtaposing) out of the footage back in '85.

's too bad Macek didn't get to pursue his original plan, because of Revell's interference. We wouldn't be having this issue (or any other) if they'd left well enough alone.

And I doubt HG would want to try something like that now with the footage to create new episodes to slide in as part of the 85ep.

Apart from the massive, MASSIVE copyright roadblocks preventing that from ever happening, Harmony Gold just hasn't got the talent pool to do that.

Actually the Spartas open cockpit is a known feature on some Tank Destroyers in WW2 [...]

Your defense is irrelevant, the Spartas' open cockpit is an officially-acknowledged fault in its design in canon sources. By extension, glitterboy2098's eminently well-researched point is too... more's the pity.

The steady deterioration of capability though is forced by their adherence to the OSM, which they don't have to go with it.

Actually, the steady deterioration of capability is because they tried to combine three shows from three separate universes, with three radically different tech levels, into one show and pretend it was the same universe. That deterioration isn't just in the print stats, it's evident in the dialogue and the visual depictions of the mecha. The Logan is noticeably less capable than the Alpha, which is far less agile and versatile than the VF-1, etc. I know the OSM is something of a hobby horse for fans who are dissatisfied with the official spec, but it's just symptomatic of Robotech's origins.

Actually the Robotech mecha improve in performance based on the RPG stats. [...]

Well, yes... but one must remember that the RPG stats almost invariably have little or no connection to the official canon specs or the content of the series. Then again, that's not a trend isolated to just Robotech in Palladium's catalog of licensed works. In this case, Palladium's writers are trying, with the best of intentions, to make the game more balanced than the actual canon material permits. Of course, I suppose it doesn't help that Harmony Gold's official stats ALSO have little in common with the animation except where they're copied from the OSM or the animation itself.

(It's like RPG fans get stuck with the end result of a three decade-long game of telephone.)

[jaymz]

While I too am guilty of giving the Alpha etc better performance than hey probably deserve, I do so only for Robotech and hope to give them more appropriate specs when I get around to doing them for their show proper, so to speak, on their own with no other "generations" to have to tie into.

[ShadowLogan]

In potentially (or explicitly) non-applicable sources... which therefore cannot be taken as entirely reliable.

And those sources are about the only source we really have for any idea with regard to the Mk1, beyond Prelude which establishes she can pilot a Cyclone (and in a combat zone).

Apart from the massive, MASSIVE copyright roadblocks preventing that from ever happening, Harmony Gold just hasn't got the talent pool to do that.

I don't see why. Ep37 is one big splice job. Ep38 is another splice job (changing the order). Several of the Macross episodes have been spliced with TRM footage that gets recycled. I'm saying re-use the footage they have rights to as there are examples of the splicing being done w/o issue (its been 25+ years and the splicing has remained in place).

Your defense is irrelevant, the Spartas' open cockpit is an officially-acknowledged fault in its design in canon sources.

That people have issues with it is irrelevant, there is precedent for a vehicle considered a tank to have open crew areas like that. I don't deny that it's a bad idea, but the VHT isn't the first "tank" to have the feature and TPTB/fans may be comparing the design to the wrong type of tank in any case (main battle tank instead of a tank destroyer).

For such a weakness in design, it seldom was an issue for the pilots going off the footage, about the only person shown to have issue would be G.Sullivan (and he was a passenger not a pilot). Said feature may actually be responsible for Simon surviving the loss of his mecha ("The Trap").

Actually, the steady deterioration of capability is because they tried to combine three shows from three separate universes, with three radically different tech levels, into one show and pretend it was the same universe. That deterioration isn't just in the print stats, it's evident in the dialogue and the visual depictions of the mecha. The Logan is noticeably less capable than the Alpha, which is far less agile and versatile than the VF-1, etc. I know the OSM is something of a hobby horse for fans who are dissatisfied with the official spec, but it's just symptomatic of Robotech's origins.

I don't know of any dialogue that establishes a given mecha is an example of deterioration in technology in the 85ep series. And the visual footage need not be taken to show a mecha at max. performance either.

Everything about the deterioration is basically forced from the OSM and TPTB preference (re: saga). That a given mecha has unique capabilities doesn't make it less capable in comparison, especially if the mecha aren't in the same class or mission profile.

[glitterboy2098]

because no nation has ever replaced a high performance unit with one of inferior speed and carriage before.. you know, like the F-4 Phantom being replaced by the early block F-16's.. which was very unpopular

combat doctrines change. the F-4 existed when speed and durability were considered the watch word for fighters.. the F-16 was the result of a doctrine shift towards maneuverability and reduced costs.

looking just at the show, and not the OSM, the Valkyrie to alpha change would seem to be the result of a similar doctrinal shift. in the show, the Alpha has a number of advantages over the VF-1. like all modes VTOL, greater agility in all modes, integral anti-mecha weaponry, smaller size, easier to maintain, and (even ignoring the hero vs redshirts stuff), greater durability. all traits that would have greatly helped the UEDF in the 1st war.

[sirkermittsg]

looking just at the show, and not the OSM, the Valkyrie to alpha change would seem to be the result of a similar doctrinal shift. in the show, the Alpha has a number of advantages over the VF-1. like all modes VTOL, greater agility in all modes, integral anti-mecha weaponry, smaller size, easier to maintain, and (even ignoring the hero vs redshirts stuff), greater durability. all traits that would have greatly helped the UEDF in the 1st war.

I point out that the Alpha has dramatically more missle power internally that a Valkyrie can ever hope to carry on it's hard points. 60 short range missles plus 8 mini missles. a fully loaded VF-1 (A,D,J, or S) can carry similar number of mini missles....but thouse have about 20 to 30% of the range that the SRMS do and they do about a third or less of the damage that the SRMS of the Alpha do.

[jaymz]

Actually iirc the F-4 was meant to be replaced by the F-15 not the F-16....the F-16 was designed to be a "cheaper" alternative to the F-15 significantly later on (i want to say late 70's or so) after the F-15 had begun production and deployment....I'd have to double check to be sure but that is what I recall from my obsessive fighter craft days....

[Jefffar]

Well how about replacing the F-14 with the F-18?

Or replacing the A-10, AV-8B, F-16, F-18, F-117 and some F-15s with the F-35?

[sirkermittsg]

Well how about replacing the F-14 with the F-18?
Or replacing the A-10, AV-8B, F-16, F-18, F-117 and some F-15s with the F-35?

the f-18 is a single seat fighter so in some regards I think they took a step back....because the loss of the EWO's and a second set of eyes is not necessarily the best thing.

I can see all thouse other aircraft being replaced by the f-35....except the A-10. there is not a good plane that can replace the awesomeness of the Warthog. I love the warthog.

I think of the AGAC (Ajax) of the ASC as being sort of a combination of a warthog and an apache helicopter.... it rocks.

[glitterboy2098]

Actually iirc the F-4 was meant to be replaced by the F-15 not the F-16....the F-16 was designed to be a "cheaper" alternative to the F-15 significantly later on (i want to say late 70's or so) after the F-15 had begun production and deployment....I'd have to double check to be sure but that is what I recall from my obsessive fighter craft days....

the F-15 was supposed to, but requirement changes halfway through the program ended up with a design unable to do most of the jobs the F-4 was used for. (the unveiling of the MiG-25, then thought to be a mach 3 interceptor, caused the F-15 to be designed to be bigger, faster, and a pure dogfighter. "not a pound for air to ground". it also caused the price to skyrocket.)

part of the way through that process a group of generals got the a light fighter program started, obstensibly to be a cheaper '2nd wave' design to cover all the missions that the F-15 wouldn't.. and they shoehorned in an enhanced air to air capability as well since they wouldn't have been e to buy enough F-15's for what they felt the air force needed.
this 'light fighter mafia' got the F-16 to become the main multi-role fighter of the air force, mainly by promoting F-16's to fill any hole in the TO&E they could. (though they lost in the case of the F-15E's ground attack role. the LWF mafia had promoted the deltawing F-16XL for that role, but the F-15E could do more than just be a bomb truck..)


the F-18 was derived from the F-16's LWF competition, the YF-17.. the navy and marines were supposed to use a navalized version of the winner of the LWF program, but pulled out last minute and went with a modified YF-17 because they preferred the twin engine, despite the inferior range and performance of the early model. later, when several programs to obtain a new fighter went way over budget, they wound up with the 'super hornet', which was mostly the same plane at the earlier hornets, but slightly bigger and with updated avionics. the choice to use the super-bug, as it is known, to replace the F-14 and the EA-6B's was mostly due to the fact the NATF and 2nd gen attack plan programs were killed due to budget. the early model FA-18's, while updated as often as hey could, have reached the limits of what can be one withthe older frame, so they were hoping to replace then with the F-35, which will leave the navy without a capable air air fighter design. (the F-35 is mainly a ground attack plane with limited A2A, the super hornet the same.) and right the navy is looking at cutting back their F-35 order due to costs, and buying more Super Hornets.

needless to say, while the pilots of the older Hornets have little problem with the super hornet, the Tomcat and Intruder pilots have little but scorn for the super-bug.. mainly due to its limited A@A ability and greatly limited range compared to their old planes.

[Chris0013]

Maybe it is just me...but I really can't see how you are making a human sized cockpit on any full sized Zentraedi mecha.

[Seto Kaiba]

And those sources are about the only source we really have for any idea with regard to the Mk1, beyond Prelude which establishes she can pilot a Cyclone (and in a combat zone).

Driving a motorcycle doesn't equate to being a qualified pilot of a powered battle suit... and since the whole Sentinels arc is in one of those "It happened, but it didn't happen that way" areas, nothing in it can be taken as entirely reliable even though they borrowed a bit from the end of the comics for Prelude.

That people have issues with it is irrelevant, there is precedent for a vehicle considered a tank to have open crew areas like that.

Precedent that's principally from decades ago, on obsolete platforms, which is acknowledged in official material as a really bad idea.

For such a weakness in design, it seldom was an issue for the pilots going off the footage, about the only person shown to have issue would be G.Sullivan (and he was a passenger not a pilot). Said feature may actually be responsible for Simon surviving the loss of his mecha ("The Trap").

To be fair, we never see much in the way of actual weather on "Earth" in the Masters Saga... they always seem to fight on clear days and nights.

I don't know of any dialogue that establishes a given mecha is an example of deterioration in technology in the 85ep series. And the visual footage need not be taken to show a mecha at max. performance either.

Robotech is not a subtle series, I know, but when the visual evidence unilaterally supports the simple fact that later designs were far, FAR less capable in all respects than the older designs they replaced, you don't really need the narrator and/or cast to come right out and say "Gee... these new mecha we have are kind of rubbish, wish we had VF-1s back."

Ultimately, that deterioration of capability is the result of splicing together three unrelated shows for which the standards used for military hardware were very different. Macross had humanity get a massive boost from the overtechnology recovered from the titular ship, skipping thousands of years of technological advancement, while the Southern Cross series showed us a human race that'd only just become comfortable with laser weapons, and MOSPEADA showed us humans that didn't even possess interstellar capability yet and were still working with hydrogen fuel cell technology. The saving grace for Robotech is that the latter two shows were trying desperately to imitate Macross (but failed extravagantly). All told, the available evidence in RT sources suggests RT as a whole is probably closer to Gundam when it comes to material sciences and the like.

looking just at the show, and not the OSM, the Valkyrie to alpha change would seem to be the result of a similar doctrinal shift. in the show, the Alpha has a number of advantages over the VF-1. like all modes VTOL, greater agility in all modes, integral anti-mecha weaponry, smaller size, easier to maintain, and (even ignoring the hero vs redshirts stuff), greater durability. all traits that would have greatly helped the UEDF in the 1st war.

In some aspects, yes... but in others, not so much. The Alpha's armament, like everything in the New Generation, is very visibly underpowered compared to previous generations. Invid are shown not to be all that tough, going down to guns or missile launchers that aren't much better than what we have today. The Alpha's missiles aren't very agile, their effective range is only a few hundred meters, and they're not much more powerful than what the man-portable launchers carry. It has no operational versatility to speak of, and if the visuals are any evidence is markedly less agile than a VF-1.

Smaller size may not be a virtue when it comes at a significant cost to capability, and it can't be proven that it's easier to maintain than any other unit. The claims about its longer operational endurance can't be verified from the show either, so that's out. The only real asset it has over previous designs is fighter-mode VTOL, which has little practical value when a craft is operating in the field or in space.

I point out that the Alpha has dramatically more missle power internally that a Valkyrie can ever hope to carry on it's hard points. 60 short range missles plus 8 mini missles.

That's not really that big of a difference, especially since the Alpha needs more missiles per target to achieve a kill based upon the show.

a fully loaded VF-1 (A,D,J, or S) can carry similar number of mini missles....but thouse have about 20 to 30% of the range that the SRMS do and they do about a third or less of the damage that the SRMS of the Alpha do.

Again, based on the RPG... which takes considerable liberties with the material to attempt to correct/reverse the problems alluded to above. The Alpha's missiles are pretty piss-weak in the show, being barely better than the man-portable missile launchers on the Cyclone... and Cyclone small arms have been confirmed to be only marginally better than real-world guns available today. The VF-1's missiles are shown to be rather more destructive... which isn't terribly surprising, as they're a good 3x the size and much more agile, meaning larger warhead and rocket motor.

Maybe it is just me...but I really can't see how you are making a human sized cockpit on any full sized Zentraedi mecha.

The Zentradi spies had one on a Regult when they fled the SDF-1... and let's just say that it's not something without precedent among the real creators of the material.

[ArmySGT.]

Maybe it is just me...but I really can't see how you are making a human sized cockpit on any full sized Zentraedi mecha.

Regult Battle Pod Interior

[Seto Kaiba]

Maybe it is just me...but I really can't see how you are making a human sized cockpit on any full sized Zentraedi mecha.

[url]Regult Battle Pod Interior http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ ... terior.jpg[/url]

Let's go with higher quality... Reguld cockpit, Glaug cockpit.

[glitterboy2098]

firing multiple missiles 'just to be sure' is fairly common in real life. russian pilots like to fire a single heat seeker and a single active radar homing missile at the same target. the two missiles tend to follow different flight paths (heat seeker following the course of the target's evasive actions, the radar homing taking a straighter path), making it harder for the target to escape by maneuvering, and it insures that if countermeasures cause one to lose the lock, the other is still likely to hit.

and until the latest 5th generation of missile designs were delivered (2000 onwards, with most of them still being deployed), US, NATO, and other pilots using 'western' hardware had an unofficial policy of firing two missiles slightly staggered at a single target.. mainly due to limitations in reliability for 2nd and 3rd generation AAM seekers. improving countermeasures made it harder for those missiles to retain lock, but multiple missiles meant that your chances of hitting with at least one was better.

[Seto Kaiba]

So what many are saying is that the F-4/F-14/VF-1 went away, and was replaced by the F-16/Alpha AND the F-15/Beta, [...]

Minus some rather inaccurate remarks WRT why the F-15 and F-16 were adopted and the circumstances thereof... there's the slight problem that the Alpha and Beta don't really demonstrably do anything better than the VF-1, and in many cases are demonstrably less capable.

I do have an issue with treating a Legios combiner as being significantly less capable than a VF-1, super part equipped or otherwise, as that makes no sense.

Which is the entire problem... one would naturally assume that the later models should be more advanced, higher spec, or more capable than the designs that preceded them, but that's exactly what we don't see. Instead, what we see are less agile, slower, less versatile planes with weaker and/or fewer armaments coming into service. Admittedly, this is somewhat excusable in the case of the combiner, because it gains no engine power by docking... just 16.4 tonnes of extra weight to lug around. (Its thrust to weight ratio understandably suffers as a result.)

The VF-1 was top of the line in 2010, but by even 2035 its tech would be dated, and a better understanding of Robotechnology should lead to better fighters.

It should, if there were strides being made in the understanding of robotechnology... but humanity's grip on it isn't all that solid, even as late as 2044. Humanity is apparently the technological slow child of the galaxy, if we take what Vince says in Prelude at face value.

And I still think that between the relative lack of manpower and the need to rebuild the defense forces another option was needed, but I think the proliferation of 2nd generation aerospace fighters was that answer, as opposed to any attempt to adapt a great deal of Zentraedi smallcraft for the job instead.

That would be the official answer to the thread's primary point of inquiry, yes... there were at least three or four new units either in the prototype phase or already being rolled out within a year or two of the Zentradi conflict's end. I believe those units, as identified in the RPG (2E) are the Conbat, Falcon II, Vulture, etc.

Breetai wouldn't be willing to see his fellow Zentraedi thrown away in tissue paper mecha any longer. At best, you might see some modifications that improve survivability, but there isn't much that can be done, a full sized warrior and a reinforced cockpit aren't goign to fit inside a standard Battlepod of any sort, including an Officer's Pod.

Breetai probably didn't have a lot of choice in the matter, since the RTSC-era depiction of the Zentradi is that they're all 8 feet tall and powder blue when micronized, and depending on which source you go to they either weren't keen on the type of mecha their human allies used, or were literally too big to fit.

This one is directly at Seto: Scott fires more missiles for whatever reason, but many times we see Scouts and even Shock Troopers taken out with a single hit.

That "single hit" usually consists of four or so missiles at once... when it's an Alpha doing it. A center-mass hit with a man portable rocket does the same with one quarter the ammo expenditure. Thanks to RTSC's official material, we know this is not powerful ordinance by any stretch of the imagination, being only marginally better than what we have available today. The Macross Saga and Masters Saga show us much greater levels of destructive potential in weapons. There really isn't any sense in it... which is probably why the old Sentinels comics have the UEEF still using VF-1s in the events that were adapted again in Prelude.

[ShadowLogan]

Driving a motorcycle doesn't equate to being a qualified pilot of a powered battle suit... and since the whole Sentinels arc is in one of those "It happened, but it didn't happen that way" areas, nothing in it can be taken as entirely reliable even though they borrowed a bit from the end of the comics for Prelude.

While she limited herself to 'cycle mode (had a passenger, though why Baker didn't have a Cyclone in his Alpha isn't known), she was in a combat zone. Which shows the AI is capable of learning to pilot vehicles (and by extension mecha) and operate in a combat zone. The only thing lacking is her ability to fight, but given she can learn, I don't see that as an issue.

I agree Sent. is in that gray area, especially since there are multiple versions, but they seem to agree that Janice can learn to pilot vehicles/mecha and became a combatant so it is unlikely to change (they kept common abilities w/re: to her after all).

Precedent that's principally from decades ago, on obsolete platforms, which is acknowledged in official material as a really bad idea.

The thing is sometimes old concepts gets recycled. So that the precedent is from ~40years (~70 now) when designed doesn't matter, only that it exists.

Robotech is not a subtle series, I know, but when the visual evidence unilaterally supports the simple fact that later designs were far, FAR less capable in all respects than the older designs they replaced, you don't really need the narrator and/or cast to come right out and say "Gee... these new mecha we have are kind of rubbish, wish we had VF-1s back."

You did say "That deterioration isn't just in the print stats, it's evident in the dialogue and the visual depictions of the mecha. " in the previous post I responded to. There is no dialogue that lines up with that statement, and now you say it isn't needed?

And the visual evidence really doesn't support the later platforms being less capable. Visually the VF-1 is the deathtrap mecha of the 85ep succumbing to far more losses ON SCREEN than any other human veritech. It's responsible for inflicting more losses, but in both cases this is added up over 36ep, where the other arcs have 24-5ep, and their VFs aren't as heavily showcased (Logan use is limited to a handful of episodes, the AGAC is introduced around the half-way point, the Alpha and Beta aren't used in every episode, etc).

Visually there is nothing to really support the VF-1 being the superior platform of choice. What it has visually is better PR (more episode uses, not just background use).

[Seto Kaiba]

While she limited herself to 'cycle mode (had a passenger, though why Baker didn't have a Cyclone in his Alpha isn't known), [...]

Baker bailed from his Alpha, he didn't go down with it... and as we've remarked upon in other threads, it's kind of useless to have the Cyclone not eject with the pilot, at the very least. Driving a motorbike in a combat zone isn't exactly anything to suggest you're a trained soldier... just ask the Iraqi and Afghani civilians, they'll tell you all about it.

I agree Sent. is in that gray area, especially since there are multiple versions, but they seem to agree that Janice can learn to pilot vehicles/mecha and became a combatant [...]

The available, unambiguously official material only indicates that she can drive... not that she can operate a powered battle suit or wield a gun with any skill. We never see her take any kind of violent action, actually... unless you count delivering a lot of offensively bad dialogue as a violent offense.

And the visual evidence really doesn't support the later platforms being less capable. Visually the VF-1 is the deathtrap mecha of the 85ep succumbing to far more losses ON SCREEN than any other human veritech. [...]

Against weapons of far greater power, and it still evidences greater durability than the Alpha in on-screen performance... not to mention greater agility in the air and on the ground.

[glitterboy2098]

how the hell do you determine the relative power of the weapons when we never see them used against the same kinds of targets?

[Seto Kaiba]

how the hell do you determine the relative power of the weapons when we never see them used against the same kinds of targets?

Tommy cheerfully supplied us with the missing objective yardstick to measure the destructive potential of weaponry on the New Generation's mecha in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles in the coverage of the VR-057.

[ShadowLogan]

Baker bailed from his Alpha, he didn't go down with it... and as we've remarked upon in other threads, it's kind of useless to have the Cyclone not eject with the pilot, at the very least. Driving a motorbike in a combat zone isn't exactly anything to suggest you're a trained soldier... just ask the Iraqi and Afghani civilians, they'll tell you all about it.

The Alpha is riddled with design compromises. Baker did not bailout, you can see his crash-landed S.Alpha behind him as he says the cliche "any landing you can walk away from" type line. The Cyclone bay doesn't look like it was damaged, at least if we go off of Scott's -6H in Ep61 (and Lancer's Conbat in Invasion comic), so he should have been able to recover one.

While one doesn't need to be a solider to operate a motorbike, it does show the AI is capable of learning to operate vehicles (and by extension mecha). If JANICE wasn't considered a solider for the operation, what the hell was she doing there on a Cyclone?

Against weapons of far greater power, and it still evidences greater durability than the Alpha in on-screen performance... not to mention greater agility in the air and on the ground.

Weapons in question aren't give a comparable measure in the actual show, making any assessment of their power forced from the OSM or RPG (here there is a lack of scale).

I dispute the greater durability on screen and agility. Rick trashes/damages how many VF-1s compared to individual NG pilots (or even TRM) in VFs? NG/TRM pilots do much better than Rick in this regard, granted Ben/Max/Roy/Miryia do better than Rick with regard to the number of incidents. But worst case VF-1 pilot still does worse than the worst case NG/TRM pilot. (And this is comparing plot shields to plot shields).

Agility. Nothing comes to mind with the VF-1 outperforming the Alpha either. This is an other example that is forced from the RPG or OSM sources.

Visually with Reflex Level explosions, the VF-1 Ben was piloting was destroyed by one (Barrier overload, certainly in the category of Reflex-level), and he had the benefit of using fighter mode and open space. The Alpha was involved in two such incidents INSIDE Invid Hives, one in Battloid mode and one in fighter mode (part of a group of 4, all made it out). Alpha from this appears to have the better agility.

[glitterboy2098]

how the hell do you determine the relative power of the weapons when we never see them used against the same kinds of targets?

Tommy cheerfully supplied us with the missing objective yardstick to measure the destructive potential of weaponry on the New Generation's mecha in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles in the coverage of the VR-057.

so a single data point, with no actual equivalent for earlier eras? you can't get a viable comparison out of that.

[Seto Kaiba]

While one doesn't need to be a solider to operate a motorbike, it does show the AI is capable of learning to operate vehicles (and by extension mecha). If JANICE wasn't considered a solider for the operation, what the hell was she doing there on a Cyclone?

Apart from their one stowaway, there were no civilians out in space with the Expeditionary Forces... and thus there would not be any civilian vehicles for Janice to appropriate. Janice was not, of course, a civilian either... apparently having been the UEEF's intermediary with the Haydonites, and apparently a part of Rick's plan to rescue Minmei (via her ability to alter her appearance holographically).

Weapons in question aren't give a comparable measure in the actual show, making any assessment of their power forced from the OSM or RPG (here there is a lack of scale).

Not actually true... the very first episode of the New Generation shows us the Gallant is no better than a modern pistol. I would also like to point out that AotSC is not OSM. Even if the guns used in the Macross Saga are no better than modern ammunition they're still more powerful than the gear of the New Generation.

I dispute the greater durability on screen and agility. Rick trashes/damages how many VF-1s compared to individual NG pilots [...]

So, you dispute the greater durability when Rick is damaged by weapons of considerably greater power... yet just a tap in passing from an Invid's blunt little claw is enough to disable an Alpha? Rick crash lands at terminal velocity through many reinforced concrete buildings and comes out without a freaking scratch. Scott crashes at terminal velocity and his Alpha was totally inoperable... and Scott doesn't even have the excuse of having taken damage first. Greater agility is obvious from the animation, to such an extent that I'm flabbergasted that you're even arguing it. The New Generation mecha are ponderous on the ground, where the Macross Saga's VF-1s, Spartans, and Tomahawks are shown to be as nimble as men and the VF-1s get downright acrobatic at times. (Show me an incidence of the Alpha doing a shoulder roll, taking cover behind a building and popping out to fire, or engaging in an energetic fistfight, why don't you?)

Visually with Reflex Level explosions, [...]

That's a rather forced comparison... we never see any weapons in the New Generation that are remotely comparable to the massive scale of the weapons you're referencing from the Macross Saga.

so a single data point, with no actual equivalent for earlier eras? you can't get a viable comparison out of that.

A single data point for a heavy support weapon specifically designed to fight the Invid... a weapon only marginally better than a modern 20mm cannon firing PGU-28A/B. This confirms the OSM line, that weapons used on both Ride Armors and Armo-Fighters are not much better than modern military hardware... just more ammo-efficient. Even if we assume those rotary cannons on the VF-1 are using purely modern propellant and bullet materials, we're still talking a massively greater level of destructive potential for the VF-1. Use the VF-1's OSM gun pod performance figures, and we're suddenly talking ~20x greater firepower. Harmony Gold has thus far maintained that the OSM is a viable source for RT...

[Seto Kaiba]

Especially when velocity, density and dimensions of a given round remain mysteries.

We know the muzzle energy of the HRG-70... that's the most important figure, if you know that and any other one of those details, you can get them all.

[Jefffar]

and we are comparing a 20mm weapon used by a slightly larger than human scale power armour with a 55mm weapon carried by a multi-tonne mecha and considering it a fair indicator of the relative quality of the weapons?

[jaymz]

Actually I think the point being made is that the weapons used by the Alpha are marginally more powerful than said 20mm weapon used by a slightly larger than human powersuit.

[Seto Kaiba]

and we are comparing a 20mm weapon used by a slightly larger than human scale power armour with a 55mm weapon carried by a multi-tonne mecha and considering it a fair indicator of the relative quality of the weapons?

We're comparing a 20mm rapid-fire cannon, established to be a heavy weapon for its era and evidently only marginally less powerful than the weapons carried on fighters of the same era, against the standard anti-mecha weapon from close to 30 years earlier. Even if the Alpha's beam rifle is ten times as powerful as the HRG-70, we're still talking an order of magnitude difference between that and the GU-11.

[ArmySGT.]

So thirty years later....... You don't see a VF-1A_E1/2/3/4/5/6 (Block) with uprated engines that now can push velocities greater than Mach 6 and achieve orbit? If you can do that with a Beta fighter, and its smaller chassis, I don't see why not. There is line art that shows the VF-1s do not need to fire or jettison missiles from wing hard points even transforming to battloid mode. (Macross Design Works by Shoji Kawamori). Step up to a Super Valkyrie... With all those medium range missiles............ You turn Invid into chaff.

[Seto Kaiba]

So thirty years later....... You don't see a VF-1A_E1/2/3/4/5/6 (Block) with uprated engines that now can push velocities greater than Mach 6 and achieve orbit?

Not in Robotech, anyway... or, at least, not in the current, official Robotech animated continuity. The old comics made for the Sentinels series depicted the Expeditionary Forces using VF-1s as late as the events that are now dated 2043 (Edwards' treason). 'course, the series itself (specifically, "Space Fold") proves that the VF-1's initial mass production type could reach orbit just fine without any boosters even after a sortie.

Spoiler:

Naturally, the original Macross universe(s) have the VF-1 enjoying a long service lifespan with many upgrades and improvements to its systems during and after its nearly 5,500 unit, 17 block mass production run. The units that were shown in the original series were from the first four or five production blocks. The military mass production types didn't get quite as fast as Mach 6, but at least one modded unit had a top speed of Mach 19.

If you can do that with a Beta fighter, and its smaller chassis, I don't see why not.

The TLEAD/Beta airframe isn't really "smaller" in terms of total volume... it's just much squarer, also heavier by far (13.25t vs. 26.4t (OSM) or 29.5t (per RT.com)).

There is line art that shows the VF-1s do not need to fire or jettison missiles from wing hard points even transforming to battloid mode. (Macross Design Works by Shoji Kawamori).

The series shows us that much, in "Blind Game" and "Force of Arms".

Step up to a Super Valkyrie... With all those medium range missiles............ You turn Invid into chaff.

Ha, forget that... step up to the Super Valkyrie, and wade in with six of those heavy anti-warship reaction warheads that make blasts hundreds of meters across and are powerful enough to qualify as "puff, it dies" weapons. That'll do nicely for thinning the swarm. Couple hundred VF-1s armed like that, and securing control over Earth's orbital space wouldn't be all that challenging.

[ShadowLogan]

Not actually true... the very first episode of the New Generation shows us the Gallant is no better than a modern pistol. I would also like to point out that AotSC is not OSM. Even if the guns used in the Macross Saga are no better than modern ammunition they're still more powerful than the gear of the New Generation.

And the Gallant being an energy weapon could have multiple settings (Star Trek's phaser, we see Lancer make what could be seen as an adjustment to the Gallant in "The Secret Route" before shooting Maxwell). And that is an infantry weapon, I'm talking the mecha mounted weaponry (and the H-90 isn't). The EP-37/40 do score kills, so does the Alpha gunpod, but not the H-90.

The only indication of power is the HRG-70RG, nothing about the beam weapons used by the Alpha/Beta. And those are certainly not in the same power out put as Syncro-cannons (mecha portable reflex cannons basically, even TMS doesn't have those).

So, you dispute the greater durability when Rick is damaged by weapons of considerably greater power... yet just a tap in passing from an Invid's blunt little claw is enough to disable an Alpha?

Nothing in the show itself indicates those weapons are of considerably greater power. The "power" rating you refer to comes from outside the show itself remember.

Said Invid claw can have other features not mentioned to make it more deadly (non-visible energy shield, ala PPB in "Blitzkrieg") that we don't know about from the show (or OSM). That Invid claw is also moving at orbital speeds, so it's going to have far more kinetic energy than the VF-1 that gets dropped kick by a Zent. MPA in Ep31 or a giant Zentraedi wielding an improvised club.

Rick crash lands at terminal velocity through many reinforced concrete buildings and comes out without a freaking scratch. Scott crashes at terminal velocity and his Alpha was totally inoperable...

We don't know why the Alpha was inoperable after Scott landed. It may have nothing to do with the landing itself (fuel, exhausted weapons, thermal damage from re-entry).

The New Generation mecha are ponderous on the ground, where the Macross Saga's VF-1s, Spartans, and Tomahawks are shown to be as nimble as men and the VF-1s get downright acrobatic at times. (Show me an incidence of the Alpha doing a shoulder roll, taking cover behind a building and popping out to fire, or engaging in an energetic fistfight, why don't you?)

NG mecha (VFs) don't engage on the ground, they do so in the air the vast majority of the time (IIRC only the Shadow Fighters are shown on the ground). As for melee combat, there are a variety of forms of it on the personal level, and I would suspect on the mecha level to. The Alpha manages to put the RCB in a full-nelson (it can't hold it there for long), the VF-1 was never shown to do that, the best pin it had was using the gunpod and even it couldn't hold it (Max pulled out before Breetai pulled free, but Rand may not be a trained fighter). Wolfe does some showboating, drops an Invid trooper with a knee shot (x2). You can see acrobatic maneuvering when Wolfe pilots the Alpha in Eulogy.

That's a rather forced comparison... we never see any weapons in the New Generation that are remotely comparable to the massive scale of the weapons you're referencing from the Macross Saga.

Invid Hives being destroyed (Reflex Furnace overload, IIRC dialogue correctly), comparable to Sera Base's destruction (definitely RFO). And I would put the Barrier overload in that category as well.

We're comparing a 20mm rapid-fire cannon, established to be a heavy weapon for its era and evidently only marginally less powerful than the weapons carried on fighters of the same era, against the standard anti-mecha weapon from close to 30 years earlier. Even if the Alpha's beam rifle is ten times as powerful as the HRG-70, we're still talking an order of magnitude difference between that and the GU-11.

There is a big problem here. Heavy-medium-light weapons are all relative to one another, and can even refer to different categories over time. It isn't universal.

A heavy infantry weapon could be seen as light for a mecha/vehicle platform. And the Cyclone is closer to the infantry scale than full-scale mecha. Ex. a .50cal. machine gun is a heavy weapon for infantry, but for a tank/vehicle weapon it is light.

[glitterboy2098]

and where are you getting the stats for the GU-11's 55mm? that isn't a round size actually used in real life, except for one weapon that was in development by the nazi's in the very last days for ww2.. which was a low velocity single barrelled rapid fire cannon firing HE shells, intended to for mounting vertically on the Me P.1101/99 'heavy interceptor' (a paper concept from the same period) so it could just fly under enemy bombers and let loose.

[ArmySGT.]

So thirty years later....... You don't see a VF-1A_E1/2/3/4/5/6 (Block) with uprated engines that now can push velocities greater than Mach 6 and achieve orbit?

Not in Robotech, anyway... or, at least, not in the current, official Robotech animated continuity. The old comics made for the Sentinels series depicted the Expeditionary Forces using VF-1s as late as the events that are now dated 2043 (Edwards' treason). 'course, the series itself (specifically, "Space Fold") proves that the VF-1's initial mass production type could reach orbit just fine without any boosters even after a sortie.

Spoiler:

Naturally, the original Macross universe(s) have the VF-1 enjoying a long service lifespan with many upgrades and improvements to its systems during and after its nearly 5,500 unit, 17 block mass production run. The units that were shown in the original series were from the first four or five production blocks. The military mass production types didn't get quite as fast as Mach 6, but at least one modded unit had a top speed of Mach 19.

If you can do that with a Beta fighter, and its smaller chassis, I don't see why not.

The TLEAD/Beta airframe isn't really "smaller" in terms of total volume... it's just much squarer, also heavier by far (13.25t vs. 26.4t (OSM) or 29.5t (per RT.com)).

There is line art that shows the VF-1s do not need to fire or jettison missiles from wing hard points even transforming to battloid mode. (Macross Design Works by Shoji Kawamori).

The series shows us that much, in "Blind Game" and "Force of Arms".

Step up to a Super Valkyrie... With all those medium range missiles............ You turn Invid into chaff.

Ha, forget that... step up to the Super Valkyrie, and wade in with six of those heavy anti-warship reaction warheads that make blasts hundreds of meters across and are powerful enough to qualify as "puff, it dies" weapons. That'll do nicely for thinning the swarm. Couple hundred VF-1s armed like that, and securing control over Earth's orbital space wouldn't be all that challenging.

I let a PC have a Super Valkyrie for Invid Invasion....... Totally overwhelming.... I foolishly let him have a full missile load and all.... 200 miles plus radar and long range missiles....... He was essentially sniping Invid leader units, even at 40 miles with medium range missiles this continued. Fire missiles then move 90 degrees left our right. Invid charge off in the direction the missiles came from....... no contact.

There is a very paranoid brain without any Stage 5s to talk to, and a shortage of Pincer units.

[Seto Kaiba]

And the Gallant being an energy weapon could have multiple settings (Star Trek's phaser, we see Lancer make what could be seen as an adjustment to the Gallant in "The Secret Route" before shooting Maxwell).

Okay... after reviewing the scene in question, I can only write your assertion that Lancer could be making some kind of an adjustment to his Gallant off as absolute nonsense. Also, we know for a fact that the Mars Gallant/H90 design only has 2 switches on it (not counting the trigger)... one is the power/safety switch on the left side, and the other is the button to bring up the digital sight. We never get any references to changing settings on a Gallant, and understandably so, as that weapon is not multi-setting. One shot perforates most, as they say...

And that is an infantry weapon, I'm talking the mecha mounted weaponry (and the H-90 isn't). The EP-37/40 do score kills, so does the Alpha gunpod, but not the H-90.

The Gallant/H90 is an infantry weapon, true, and based on visuals no more powerful than a modern pistol or rifle... yet that is enough to bring down most Inbit with a reasonably accurate shot. It establishes that the other, heavier guns the UEEF's issuing to Cyclones are, in truth, not all that powerful... and that the Alpha's weapons, both missiles and beams, which are shown to be little better than those man-portable Cyclone weapons, are consequentially pretty weak as well and are really only achieving greater effect through faster fire rates.

And those are certainly not in the same power out put as Syncro-cannons (mecha portable reflex cannons basically, even TMS doesn't have those).

You mean those same synchro cannons that the Shadow Chronicles movie shows us are a freaking joke compared to regular beam weapons? Compare the Battle of Reflex Point in the series with the RTSC movie... the shipboard beam guns from the series cause the Invid warships to explode like fireworks with one hit, while synchro cannons from the movie are just poking holes to little effect. Mecha-scale synchro cannons are never shown firing in the RT version of things, so we cannot validate your argument.

Nothing in the show itself indicates those weapons are of considerably greater power. The "power" rating you refer to comes from outside the show itself remember.

Common sense observation of the show itself is enough to demonstrate the power gap there, chief.

Said Invid claw can have other features not mentioned

But isn't your little rule here that if it's not mentioned or shown it doesn't exist?

Hoist with his own petard, they say.

that we don't know about from the show (or OSM).

Don't speak for the OSM if you don't know what's in the OSM, chief... there's nothing in the MOSPEADA OSM that'd even suggest the Inbit were using some kind of force field. Also, Inbit aren't moving at orbital speeds in atmospheric combat... so I don't even know why you mentioned that.

We don't know why the Alpha was inoperable after Scott landed. It may have nothing to do with the landing itself (fuel, exhausted weapons, thermal damage from re-entry).

So, wait... the fighter that can fly for ages ran out of fuel after a very short dogfight and reentry? I'm sensing something like an inconsistency... especially when Bernard's fighter was ferried to Earth by a Horizont. He didn't fire anything like all his weapons in that dogfight, so that's unlikely. A VF-1 missing half its ventral hull made reentry without damage or ill effect in the Macross Saga... are you now asserting the Alpha is worse in that respect?

NG mecha (VFs) don't engage on the ground, they do so in the air the vast majority of the time (IIRC only the Shadow Fighters are shown on the ground).

And are visibly, and understandably, less agile in flight compared to what we see in the Macross Saga... but that's what we'd expect from a heavier fighter with a smaller thrust-to-weight ratio, no thrust vectoring, etc.

and where are you getting the stats for the GU-11's 55mm? that isn't a round size actually used in real life, except for one weapon that was in development by the nazi's in the very last days for ww2.

Two sources... the first is a low-end approximation put together based on the ballistic profile of the 30mm GAU-8/A Avenger rotary cannon and its standard PGU-13/PGU-14 ammunition; the second is the official ballistic profile of the GU-11A gun pod from OSM sources, using early-issue ammo like SS or APDS-DU instead of the higher-powered HEACA.

I let a PC have a Super Valkyrie for Invid Invasion....... Totally overwhelming.... I foolishly let him have a full missile load and all.... 200 miles plus radar and long range missiles....... He was essentially sniping Invid leader units, even at 40 miles with medium range missiles this continued.

That's kinda sadistic... admittedly, I have done worse. A friend of mine runs a RT setting game that my own Macross game periodically does "crossover events" with, just for giggles and because we've been doing this for almost a decade. I was working on a pending event, doing some balance playtesting before the actual session, and discovered that using ANY VF-1 variant with OSM-accurate stats is overkill against Invid. Strike Valkyries, doubly so. Our four-"man" NPC test flight racked up almost 2000 kills apiece* with VF-1A-6 Strike Valkyries before the Invid were even able to see them.

* RMS-1 anti-warship reaction missiles are a hell of a thing...

[ShadowLogan]

yet that is enough to bring down most Inbit with a reasonably accurate shot.

When does the Gallant actually score a kill on a mecha other than the Urban Enforcer with direct fire? And that is an Invid Mecha that Cyclones and Alpha/Betas are not shown to engage, the mecha they do engage when put against an H-90 has the H-90 doing poorly (no direct kills, unlike the ASC Rifles that down Bioroids). The Cyc/Alpha/Beta weapons effects are more pronounced too on those heavy mecha, even without the eye shot (Rand's EP-40 doesn't have the same impact the larger beam cannons have either). So really what comparison is available is that the H-90 is vastly weaker than the Cyclone/Alpha/Beta weapons in effects on similar mecha.

Mecha-scale synchro cannons are never shown firing in the RT version of things, so we cannot validate your argument.

1st, the Beta (a mecha, in combiner role) is equipped with a Syncro-cannon in Shadow Chronicles, and we now of multiple units to carry them. TSC is subservient to the 85episodes, so Syncro-cannons are still potent. Dialogue still suggests the weapon is potent (Alex suggests it will allow him to take out that flight of Haydonite Wraiths after all).

2nd, the Hovercraft that Rand operates in "Reflex Point" would be an example of mecha-scale weapon. It isn't a fixed weapon or overly large platform (ship, the hoverplatform isn't any bigger than regular mecha). We even get a sense of scale thanks to Sue parking her Cyclone next to it.

But isn't your little rule here that if it's not mentioned or shown it doesn't exist?

To the extent that it is possible, beyond that it is just opinion and speculation if one wants an explanation for what they are shown to do. I don't find the OSM all that compelling.

Don't speak for the OSM if you don't know what's in the OSM, chief... there's nothing in the MOSPEADA OSM that'd even suggest the Inbit were using some kind of force field. Also, Inbit aren't moving at orbital speeds in atmospheric combat... so I don't even know why you mentioned that.

That comment was not directed at any specific single issue (I've seen SDC:SC and GCM several times).

As for orbital speed, that is what we see in EP61. Otherwise we don't see any melee attacks that are as devastating as you suggest to an Alpha or Beta than when Ben's -1A had a pipe dropped on it's head (or Breetai crushing Rick's head). Even with airborne combat, the platforms would still be in motion adding kinetic energy to the hit.

So, wait... the fighter that can fly for ages ran out of fuel after a very short dogfight and reentry? I'm sensing something like an inconsistency... especially when Bernard's fighter was ferried to Earth by a Horizont. He didn't fire anything like all his weapons in that dogfight, so that's unlikely. A VF-1 missing half its ventral hull made reentry without damage or ill effect in the Macross Saga... are you now asserting the Alpha is worse in that respect?

As I said, we don't know why the Alpha was abandoned by Scott, all we really have is speculation in this regard.

Fuel shortage existed in 2044 (1year supply remember), and I find it highly unlikely that it just appeared out of now where (maybe for general consumption it was, but the higher ups and logistics people had to know before this).

The re-entry profiles in question are different though. The VF-1 re-entered traditionally attempting to bleed speed off. The Alpha did not, it entered a powered dive after jettisoning the Beta during re-entry. Hardly a reasonable objection when the pilots don't follow the same re-entry trajectory.

And are visibly, and understandably, less agile in flight compared to what we see in the Macross Saga... but that's what we'd expect from a heavier fighter with a smaller thrust-to-weight ratio, no thrust vectoring, etc.

Which doesn't pan out to what is animated. The mecha are shown to be equally agile (w/n acceptable margin) while in flight.

[Seto Kaiba]

1st, the Beta (a mecha, in combiner role) is equipped with a Syncro-cannon in Shadow Chronicles, and we now of multiple units to carry them.

That's nice, but it still proves nothing.

TSC is subservient to the 85episodes, so Syncro-cannons are still potent. Dialogue still suggests the weapon is potent (Alex suggests it will allow him to take out that flight of Haydonite Wraiths after all).

Sorry, but your argument and conclusion don't line up. The apples-to-apples comparison against Invid carries between the series and RTSC clearly indicates the synchro cannons on ships like the Shimakaze are inferior to the regular turreted beam guns on the Ikazuchi, etc. Potent is a relative term, and I don't doubt for a second that their synchro cannon systems are more potent than the almost comically weak weapons the Alpha normally carries.

2nd, the Hovercraft that Rand operates in "Reflex Point" would be an example of mecha-scale weapon. It isn't a fixed weapon or overly large platform (ship, the hoverplatform isn't any bigger than regular mecha). We even get a sense of scale thanks to Sue parking her Cyclone next to it.

That's field artillery, and larger than the mecha in common use... it's also shown to be not all that powerful, and only kills multiple Invid when they obligingly line up so one shot can hit them all.

As for orbital speed, that is what we see in EP61. Otherwise we don't see any melee attacks that are as devastating as you suggest to an Alpha or Beta than when Ben's -1A had a pipe dropped on it's head (or Breetai crushing Rick's head). Even with airborne combat, the platforms would still be in motion adding kinetic energy to the hit.

You might want to review the series, becuase you're ignoring a few cases of Alphas taking disabling damage from relatively minor hits. Hell, just look at Scott's crash. He loses one vertical stabilizer in orbit and that's apparently enough for him to completely lose control of the entire plane! Also, you're forgetting how insanely durable the Macross Saga establishes the VF-1 is in previous episodes... Rick survived an impact at terminal velocity, through several entire buildings, and his VF-1D didn't even get a scratch. All you've demonstrated there is that Breetai is insanely strong... and even then he needed to get a fall of dozens of meters to do damage to Ben's VF-1A's head with that pipe, and needed both hands to crush Rick's VF-1J's head. (He's also established, by his own dialogue, to be much tougher than the average Zentradi.)

As I said, we don't know why the Alpha was abandoned by Scott, all we really have is speculation in this regard.

The only damage it sustained was the loss of one vertical stabilizer... that wouldn't be disabling damage on a plane from 60 years ago, let alone one today.

Fuel shortage existed in 2044 (1year supply remember), and I find it highly unlikely that it just appeared out of now where (maybe for general consumption it was, but the higher ups and logistics people had to know before this).

The fuel shortage mentioned in RTSC is caused by the Invid taking all protoculture on Earth with them, and the SDF-3 going missing with their only means of making more. There was no fuel shortage until both of those things happened.

The re-entry profiles in question are different though. The VF-1 re-entered traditionally attempting to bleed speed off. The Alpha did not, it entered a powered dive after jettisoning the Beta during re-entry.

You might want to review the animation... Scott's engines aren't burning when he ejects that Beta, and he was in the midst of a deceleration burn when he ejected it.

Both of them made unpowered reentries... Rick's VF-1S came through without a scratch despite missing half its underside, while Scott's plane planted itself in the ground like a lawn dart because he was missing one stabilizer.

Which doesn't pan out to what is animated. The mecha are shown to be equally agile (w/n acceptable margin) while in flight.

You might want to review the animation then, chief... your memory's a little faulty.

[ShadowLogan]

]That's nice, but it still proves nothing

Wrong, it proves that mecha do exist with Syncro-cannon weapons. Remember, the whole point was that you said there aren't any. Dialogue points to their existence on the Beta during TSC, which is a mecha. We don't see one used, but dialogue establishes their existence on said platforms. QED.

Sorry, but your argument and conclusion don't line up. The apples-to-apples comparison against Invid carries between the series and RTSC clearly indicates the synchro cannons on ships like the Shimakaze are inferior to the regular turreted beam guns on the Ikazuchi, etc.

I don't recall any scene in RTSC that is equivalent to RT85 w/Syncro-cannon use (even went through scene). They use them to bombard the Invid Carrier fleet as it rises up, but the weapons aren't shown to hit like that. The only incident close to your description appears to be fire from the VFs and not from another capital ship IMHO.

That's field artillery, and larger than the mecha in common use... it's also shown to be not all that powerful, and only kills multiple Invid when they obligingly line up so one shot can hit them all.

It's certainly bigger than a Cyclone, but the animation really doesn't have many other instances of the platform w/other mecha to compare size directly. The unit is ~3 units high x ~6 units long (barrel) x ~5 units diameter of platform. 1 Unit being equal to Rand's height based on a screen capture of Rand entering the platform (standing erect on it). The 2E RPG puts him at 1.7m in height, resulting in dimensions of approx. 5.1m x 10.2m x 8.5m, smaller than a Beta fighter with wings at full spread (or it's B-mode width instead of full wingspan), and pretty close to the Alpha in fighter mode. So it is in the size range for mecha in common use during that period (and lets not forget that TMS has the Monster with its overly large size compared to the norm, so there could be the odd case outside the norm).

And those rough measurements hold up when Sue's Cyclone is used, and extrapolated w/another shot (as her Cyc is only in a partial shot) separate from the shot used for Rand. There are a few that have him seated and visible, so additional estimations can be made from that to (haven't done them).

All you've demonstrated there is that Breetai is insanely strong... and even then he needed to get a fall of dozens of meters to do damage to Ben's VF-1A's head with that pipe, and needed both hands to crush Rick's VF-1J's head. (He's also established, by his own dialogue, to be much tougher than the average Zentradi.)

What about Khyron using an expended gunpod as a club (he dropped 3 VF-1s in Battloid and put them out of commission) in "BrokenHeart". An MPA also chucked a VF-1 in fighter mode into a truck, exploding in "Private Time". Doesn't look very durable to me w/o those named pilots providing plot shields.

The only damage it sustained was the loss of one vertical stabilizer... that wouldn't be disabling damage on a plane from 60 years ago, let alone one today.

Then we really don't know the reason for why Scott abandons the Alpha in Ep61.

The fuel shortage mentioned in RTSC is caused by the Invid taking all protoculture on Earth with them, and the SDF-3 going missing with their only means of making more. There was no fuel shortage until both of those things happened.

The Invid taking the PC on Earth would not effect the UEEF reserves as they did not have access to it during that period. That they knew there was additional reserves on Earth isn't disputed, but I don't see why they would count a reserve they don't have access to yet in decision making.

The SDF-3 may have the Matrix, but do they have the necessary raw materials to produce PC? (Which IINM includes the Flower of Life).

You might want to review the animation... Scott's engines aren't burning when he ejects that Beta, and he was in the midst of a deceleration burn when he ejected it.

I did review the animation, Scott does execute a burn with the Beta separation. It is of short duration (@10:23 see engine burn during Beta sep, it isn't until 10:24 that the engines appear to shut off with Earth in view).

You might want to review the animation then, chief... your memory's a little faulty.

There's nothing wrong with my memory in this regard. The mecha display equal feats of agility within an acceptable margin. What the VF-1 does have is lots more exposure in an operational state compared to the other VTs in Robotech.

Out of 85episodes
36 are Macross Saga
-VF-1 (partaking in combat in 22, though it may be in more episodes and ignoring flashback use and dream sequence)
24 are from Masters Saga:
-Logan (partakes in 5episodes, 4 in combat)
-VHT (combat in 12 episodes, may be in others w/o combat)
-AGAC (combat in 7 episodes, may be in others w/o combat)
25 are NG Saga:
-Alpha (combat in 16 episodes, though is visible in others and ignoring dream sequence)
-Beta (combat in 4 episodes, though is visible in others)
--A/B combined used in combat in 4 episodes, though visible in others w/overlap in the Alpha & Beta solo
-Cyclones (combat in 17 episodes)


Based on those numbers, the VF-1 gets seen more and will create bias in an assessment as it is more prevalent with exposure.

[Seto Kaiba]

Wrong, it proves that mecha do exist with Syncro-cannon weapons.

Er... no, I think your statement here has proved one and only one thing. Specifically, that you either misremembered what was in my post, or simply didn't read it. I didn't say that mecha-scale synchro cannons don't exist, I said that those weapons are simply never actually fired... and that the ship-scale ones are a joke compared to regular starship beam turrets from the same damn era.

I don't recall any scene in RTSC that is equivalent to RT85 w/Syncro-cannon use (even went through scene).

Then you've just conclusively proven that your statement below insisting your memory is just fine is untrue... compare the shots of synchro cannons firing on the Invid in RTSC with the ones of the Ikazuchis firing on those same Invid carries from Ep84 and 85 of the original series. The Ikazuchi beam turrets are shown to be considerably more powerful.

What about Khyron using an expended gunpod as a club (he dropped 3 VF-1s in Battloid and put them out of commission) in "BrokenHeart".

He knocked 3 VF-1's down... whether he actually disabled them is never shown. Your memory of the series appears to be rather... selective.

I did review the animation, Scott does execute a burn with the Beta separation. It is of short duration (@10:23 see engine burn during Beta sep, it isn't until 10:24 that the engines appear to shut off with Earth in view).

That's not a power dive, he's making an unpowered reentry and his engines aren't even firing except for the second or so that he separates from the Beta.

There's nothing wrong with my memory in this regard.

Your earlier remarks put a lie to that.

[ShadowLogan]

Then you've just conclusively proven that your statement below insisting your memory is just fine is untrue...

And just to make sure I did review the footage (I've only seen TSC a few times, 85ep far more than that) between the start of the battle and the Pheonix. There is no Syncro-Cannon shot showing to hit and only damage the hull of the carriers. What we see is the SCs firing into the formation, with no clear indication of hits or not (there are explosions, but no indication of what may have actually been hit).

We do see SFs engage those same carriers and firing on them, and at one time poking holes into them, but those aren't cap.-ship grade weapons.

He knocked 3 VF-1's down... whether he actually disabled them is never shown. Your memory of the series appears to be rather... selective.

At least one of the Battloids can be seen later on it's butt slumped over and not moving. I reviewed the footage.

That's not a power dive, he's making an unpowered reentry and his engines aren't even firing except for the second or so that he separates from the Beta.

The firing of the Alpha engines for separation establishes that a burn took place making it a powered dive (he would have picked up more speed because of the engine burn).

[Seto Kaiba]

And just to make sure I did review the footage [...]

But apparently not my previous posts, as you're still swinging at a different target entirely.

(I've only seen TSC a few times, 85ep far more than that) between the start of the battle and the Pheonix. There is no Syncro-Cannon shot showing to hit and only damage the hull of the carriers. What we see is the SCs firing into the formation, with no clear indication of hits or not [...]

*sigh* Wrong again, chief. In the series, what we see is Ikazuchi-class carriers firing their dorsal armament at those Invid transports and they explode like fireworks when hit. In the Shadow Chronicles movie, the SDF-4 and its escorts fire their synchro cannons at identical ships, and we see in the animation that the ships do not explode even though they'd suffered direct hits from weapons that are ostensibly much, MUCH more powerful... the shots pass through them, digging a hole but otherwise dealing little apparent damage. We know, from RTSC, that the armor of those ships is so weak that the embarrassing micro-ordinance of an Alpha can breach it handily.

At least one of the Battloids can be seen later on it's butt slumped over and not moving. I reviewed the footage.

Not destroyed, not disabled, just sitting there, eh?

The firing of the Alpha engines for separation establishes that a burn took place making it a powered dive (he would have picked up more speed because of the engine burn).

A fraction of a second's burn doesn't constitute a power dive...

[ShadowLogan]

But apparently not my previous posts, as you're still swinging at a different target entirely.

Oh I have with specific instances, but nothing comes up differently than I remember.

In the series, what we see is Ikazuchi-class carriers firing their dorsal armament at those Invid transports and they explode like fireworks when hit.

Agree here.

In the Shadow Chronicles movie, the SDF-4 and its escorts fire their synchro cannons at identical ships, and we see in the animation that the ships do not explode even though they'd suffered direct hits from weapons that are ostensibly much, MUCH more powerful... the shots pass through them, digging a hole but otherwise dealing little apparent damage. We know, from RTSC, that the armor of those ships is so weak that the embarrassing micro-ordinance of an Alpha can breach it handily.

Wrong. The only shots that show the SCs firing onto the Invid ships is side angle and that is into the fleet formation. The Beams appear to miss ships entirely on the medium shot, and from far shot we see explosions pop up at random (also see it during medium shot, but those appear to also form out of no where).

A hull get holed by Shadow Alpha fighters going off the juxtaposition, not capital ship fire.

Not destroyed, not disabled, just sitting there, eh?

It isn't moving, which indicates it was disabled (battle still going on). It was also near a Monster, and Khyron's group did have a Monster so it is possible that is one that Khyron took down as he stayed close to that mecha for the battle only leaving it to rescue Azonia nearby.

A fraction of a second's burn doesn't constitute a power dive...

In this case it does. Without the burn Scott could not have pulled ahead of the Beta. The Angle is also steep, gravity would accelerate the platform, and the engines executed a burn (duration is not a requirement), all qualities of a power dive.

[Seto Kaiba]

Wrong. The only shots that show the SCs firing onto the Invid ships is side angle and that is into the fleet formation. The Beams appear to miss ships entirely on the medium shot, and from far shot we see explosions pop up at random (also see it during medium shot, but those appear to also form out of no where).

Putting aside the fact that we see a few shots pass clean through the CG models of the Invid ships, haven't you just gone and proved my point for me? If these had been Macross Saga-era capital ship bombardment weapons, those Invid ships in that scene would've been disintegrated by a near miss... yet direct hits and near misses don't seem to have any effect on them at all...

A fraction of a second's burn doesn't constitute a power dive...

In this case it does.

No, it really, honest and truly does not.

The Angle is also steep, gravity would accelerate the platform, and the engines executed a burn (duration is not a requirement), all qualities of a power dive.

I hate to break it to you (no, not really), but you're wrong here as well. In actual fact, the definition of a "power dive" as used in modern aviation is a dive in which the aircraft is accelerated by both gravity and the continuous application of full (or near-full) thrust from its engines. Scott did not make reentry in a power dive, because his engines weren't even firing, let alone firing at maximum thrust. Like Rick, Scott made reentry in an unpowered glide. Unlike Rick, his fighter was in far better shape... y'know, not missing most of its ventral hull and all. Also unlike Rick, Scott's fighter apparently was beyond his ability to control and he crashed...

[ArmySGT.]

This ongoing thread derailment was tiresome two pages ago.

[Seto Kaiba]

This ongoing thread derailment was tiresome two pages ago.

To be fair, the actual discussion topic ended roughly five and a half pages ago... when it was pointed out that adapting the remaining Gnerls was both impractical (for a variety of reasons) and entirely unnecessary due to the introduction of several new models of fighter and upgrades for existing planes in the years immediately following the First Robotech War. Also, the fact that it would've been impossible due to Breetai calling dibs on all remaining pods for his own Expeditionary Forces units kinda kills it stone dead.

[ArmySGT.]

This ongoing thread derailment was tiresome two pages ago.

To be fair, the actual discussion topic ended roughly five and a half pages ago...

No....... to be fair any possible discussion is usually quashed by your long diatribes against anything that departs from YOUR OWN strict interpretation of the original art materials.

I haven't seen anyone one else come on and due their best as you have to shut down discussion.

I think, and I really am guessing,this is the Palladium Role Playing Games forum, not the Studio Production forum or the Anime club.

Another guess here, most people would like to play in, adapt, and add to the Role Playing Game universe, not try to slavishly recreate in exacting detail a failed and no longer in syndication anime.

Give it a rest.

[Seto Kaiba]

No....... to be fair any possible discussion is usually quashed by your long diatribes against anything that departs from YOUR OWN strict interpretation of the original art materials.

Um... two objections here. Well, actually three.

The first is, please don't make it personal. I don't want to see you (or anyone) get in trouble with the mods. If you really feel a need to lash out, please do it in a private message instead. I assure you, I will not take it personally.

The second is that I was far from the only one to say converting Gnerls was impractical or entirely unnecessary... though individual reasons for saying so did differ.

The third, and possibly most important, is that it wasn't my interpretation of the original source material (or anyone's, to be frank) that shot you down there. It was the simple, honest fact that the contents of the Robotech RPG books set up the post-war period in such a way that the United Earth Forces already had three or four new, purpose-built fighters being introduced (and possibly several more that were already in service) within just a year or two of the war's end. Well... that and that the books also suggest that surviving pods were earmarked for Breetai's troops, and subsequently used until they fell apart. If you want to blame someone for that, lay the blame on someone who was actually responsible for it... Tommy Yune, for the most part. Possibly Jason or Kevin too, but mostly Tommy.

I think, and I really am guessing,this is the Palladium Role Playing Games forum, not the Studio Production forum or the Anime club.

Indeed it is the Palladium Books forum... and, indeed, it was the content Palladium published in their books that indicated your proposal would be somewhere between unnecessary and impossible (based upon equipment availability, and internal dimensions). The OSM is, naturally, a viable and highly informative source for Palladium's Robotech games, as both Palladium and Harmony Gold drew upon production materials from the original shows to create the contents of the books. Though, I must admit, the OSM would've been much more favorable for your idea than the RPG is, because the OSM has stated the Gnerl's dimensions to be somewhat larger than what the RPG used, and because the UN Spacy didn't have at least three or four planes ready to go into mass production almost right away the way the UEDF/UEEF did.

(This thread actually prompted me to sit down with one of my artist friends and start tossing around ideas for a variable Gnerl in a similar style to the Variable Glaug from Macross M3, which did have a cockpit conversion for miclone use, though it was much more extensive than what you described in the OP.)

[Seto Kaiba]

Wait...the OSM Gnerl is actually BIGGER than the RPG Gnerl?!

Yep... at least, the size given for the Gnerl in the 2E Macross Saga sourcebook (pg187) is smaller than the one given for it in the official Macross encyclopedia Macross Chronicle (SDF:M TV Zentradi mechanic sheet 09B).

By like, how much?!

3.2m, in length. OSM has it at 20.6m, RT2E is 17.4m.

Also, though I am not discounting the existence of several alternatives, for my own edification, if not the OPs, can someone list the potential other options clearly for the periods of 2011-2014 and 2014-say 2020.

They've been listed a few times in earlier posts, but here's the short version:

VF-X-4 (~2014)
VF-1R Valkyrie (2014)
Carpenter's fighter (and possibly many others)
VF-X-6 (2015)
F/A-110 Falcon II (2015)
F/A-109 Sylphid (2016)
F/A-112 Chimera (?)
SF/A-5 Conbat (2018)
VF-8 Logan (2018)
VF-6 Alpha (~2017-2022)

[ShadowLogan]

@Seto:
I'm done with this after my reply. You aren't going to convince me, and I'm not going to convince you so best to move on.

Putting aside the fact that we see a few shots pass clean through the CG models of the Invid ships, haven't you just gone and proved my point for me? If these had been Macross Saga-era capital ship bombardment weapons, those Invid ships in that scene would've been disintegrated by a near miss... yet direct hits and near misses don't seem to have any effect on them at all...

No we don't see shots pass clean through (they could still be a miss, with perspective angle giving the illusion they hit), the only shots to hit and damage appear to come from the smaller guns on the Shadow Fighters.

All weapons have advantages and disadvantages. That the UEEF traded Reflex for Syncro on the SDF-3 would point to them being overall more advantageous to reflex weapons (doesn't mean the other can't have advantages over it in certain areas).

I hate to break it to you (no, not really), but you're wrong here as well. In actual fact, the definition of a "power dive" as used in modern aviation is a dive in which the aircraft is accelerated by both gravity and the continuous application of full (or near-full) thrust from its engines.

Nothing about how long the engines have to be running though or how long the dive lasts. So for that second when the engines are running Scott was in a Power Dive during re-entry (and it isn't possible to determine Scott's thrust level, given his desire to catch up with Marlene max thrust seems reasonable).

Nor where the re-entry profiles the same. Rick did not have an explosion on his dorsal hull altering his trajectory, an explosion we don't know the source of (sabotage, malfunction, design flaw, Invid actions, collision with debris, etc). That they both had a survivable re-entry is about the only thing they have in common.