Failed Sniper Build

[Subjugator]

Lets see the 4 fundmentals of markmenship are
Steady postion, triger pull, sight piture, and breath control.
Gravity has a rather minor affect on accuracy, it is offset by the bullets lift. M16/M4 rounds if I rember right start to drop at some where around 175-200m. Wind does not affect normal shooters to much. Usaly only snipers take gravity and wind into account in their shooting form most others it is I missed so I adjust.

Um, I don't know where you got those ideas, but:

1. Lots and lots of recreational shooters account for wind and gravity. Even I own a copy of Hatcher's Notebook. Read shooting forums and people are all over it. I'm not a match shooter or anything, but if you think it's usually only snipers, unless you're using a different definition of 'sniper' than I am, you're flat wrong. There aren't enough snipers in the world to count as them being the 'usual' folks who account for this. A competition shooter for any sort of range shooting who does NOT account for wind or gravity is destined to lose!
2. With a 50 yard zero, the 5.56 starts falling on its ballistic arc at around 135 yards. It drops below 0.0 inches at around 215 yards, which might be what you mean.

/Sub

[calto40k]

oh and about my Gunmaster OCC comment check page 141 of worldbook 25 china 2

[Subjugator]

a D6 is HUGE at that level, and you more than doubled your damage out put right there.

Unless you're using a weapon that does less than 1D6 damage (a dagger, et al), this is flatly incorrect. If you have a strength bonus, it's also largely incorrect.

/Sub

at level 1 more damage alwasy maters has most foes have low hp. so lets say 4 weapong 2 for stat and 3 for sneak attak as average damaage, that whould give you a average damage of 9 while without out 6. That is a increase of 33% witch could be a huge difrence in a fight. Most range weapons that i can think of that a rouge whould use do 8 or less. Heck that is better than most rouge mellee weapons I have seen. Most take repor for a d6 if i recall right.

Note: I am saying damage is not more than doubled. I am not saying it is not helpful.

/Sub

[Blue_Lion]

Lets see the 4 fundmentals of markmenship are
Steady postion, triger pull, sight piture, and breath control.
Gravity has a rather minor affect on accuracy, it is offset by the bullets lift. M16/M4 rounds if I rember right start to drop at some where around 175-200m. Wind does not affect normal shooters to much. Usaly only snipers take gravity and wind into account in their shooting form most others it is I missed so I adjust.

Um, I don't know where you got those ideas, but:

1. Lots and lots of recreational shooters account for wind and gravity. Even I own a copy of Hatcher's Notebook. Read shooting forums and people are all over it. I'm not a match shooter or anything, but if you think it's usually only snipers, unless you're using a different definition of 'sniper' than I am, you're flat wrong. There aren't enough snipers in the world to count as them being the 'usual' folks who account for this. A competition shooter for any sort of range shooting who does NOT account for wind or gravity is destined to lose!
2. With a 50 yard zero, the 5.56 starts falling on its ballistic arc at around 135 yards. It drops below 0.0 inches at around 215 yards, which might be what you mean.

/Sub

In military shooting a rifle is zeroed for 300m. I look at it from a military stand point. Most misses do not come from gravity and wind but the 4 fundmentals.

A compititon shooter whould be the type of profesional shooter that is a sniper. A sniper is a highly profesional shooter that specializes in long range shots. Not only people that are traind to be snipers are snipers. Sniper represents a profesional shooting abilty beyound the baisics. But assuming that rifts tech allows any one to reach that skill is just silly. Removing the need to account for wind and gravity whould not allow any one that knows the basics to count as a sniper. I have said that outside sniping it is not realy a major deal to worry about the math. Most snipers in the military are not activaly enganging in sniping targets, they are training to be profesional shooters. ONly during times of war (or crime sprees) does it get applied to human targets, any profesional long distance shooter has the abilty to act as a sniper most just chooce not to.

[Natasha]

Demanding a cannonical quote in a respaunce to a line of thaght witch you started that is compleatly off the books? I teach a class from FM 3-22.9 so that is the book I use. However my training and expernce goes well beyound what I read in books.

I did not say the barrel genreated the moementum I said it chaned part of the forward momentum into lift to cuase the bullet to rise.

The fall of the hammer has nothing to do with triger jerk. The triger only realse the catch on the hammer unless you have a single action weapon. The triger jerk is caused by people rushing to pull the triger causing a jerking the method you listed of steady even presure is the counter, this happens with even the smootherest mechanical pulls. They do not pull the triger but attempt to jerk their finder back, most are not aware they are doing it so it a subconcios acton. Training to counter it is the washer/dime trainind. Our sniper rifles already have realy touchy tigers any more reduction in the force needed to pull the triger whould cause a increase in weapons going off when you do not want them to. So you can not safly reduce it more than we have.

Again you are over thinking the math of the basics.

A sniper in the US army does 0 math, his spoter does the math and tells the sniper how to adjust. The sniper only uses the 4 basic fundementals of markmenship. They not only include known varbiles in the ballistic trajectory of the individual weapon. But case specific varibles but as curntly this math is not beeing done by the shooter it does not change who has the skill to be a sniper.

The 4 fundmentals of basic markmeneship are important because they cuase 98% of combat and training misses. Regaurdless of how advanced a shooter is it is the 4 fundementals of markmenship that make a difrence. Those that learn to shoot learn this difrent ways but they all use them as the basis. You are focusing on what is beyound the basic skill needed to hit the target.

You can question the 4 fundmentals but they are called those because they are the major mistakes people make. In most combat engments with small arms they are the leading cause of misses fallowed by weapon malfunctions. I am not some arm chair genreal saying what i think from a book but what I know not only from the books but first hand expearnce. Ask any one who served in the army to name the 4 fundementals and they will know it.

I am not off the books anymore than you are.

I did not say it was the fall of the hammer but the work required to make the hammer fall. Squeeze, don’t pull. An energy gun can have a much smoother and simpler trigger—if you have ever used a touch screen device, you’ve used an example of it. There are many ways to simplify the triggering mechanism of an energy gun, especially a fictional one.

Momentum does not accelerate itself. It is a scalar value while force is a vector value. Force can change a bullet’s momentum. Re-read that wiki article on trajectory and point to me where there is acceleration anywhere except by gravity. There are only three data points in trajectory: acceleration by gravity, muzzle velocity, and launch angle. That’s it, if to neglect frictional forces which neither a sniper nor an observer can measure without a ton of practice in many different situations.. Show me where there is a lifting force in ballistic trajectories.

I am actually focusing on the very basics of shooting. Trajectory is fundamentally basic to shooting today guns. By removing the whole question of trajectory by using energy weapons, everything is simplified and accuracy is easier to achieve. Straight lines are actually easier to deal with than trajectories.

I am not questioning the four fundamentals. I am explaining how a bit of intelligent engineering can greatly if not completely mitigate their diminishing effects on accuracy.

Neither am I impressed by your appeals to authority, which themselves are not very forceful.

[Blue_Lion]

You where the one that started it off the books, on the whole requirments.

You realy think they can safly make it so a feather touch sets of what is basicaly a anti tank weapon and then give them to any one? The weapon whould accedently go off all the time. (sorry Sorry sally did not mean to shoot you for the 5th time.) Heck with the amount of force it takes now I have seen people accedently pull the triger for a neglengent discharge. And I have seen people do triger jerk practicing on weapons with no triger. It is a biological thing the jerc to close the finger it does not have to be conected to the force of the pull.

And as I said you are two hung up on the advanced math when to even get to that point you have to master what causes 98% of misses the fundemetentals. Even removing the need for the math whould not allow a mojorty of shooters to sevre as snipers as they have not mastered the basics.

[Subjugator]

In military shooting a rifle is zeroed for 300m. I look at it from a military stand point. Most misses do not come from gravity and wind but the 4 fundmentals.

The M16A2 and the A3 and A4 are zeroed at 300m. The M16A1 is zeroed at 250m, but...OK...fair enough.

A compititon shooter whould be the type of profesional shooter that is a sniper.

Where on earth did I ever suggest otherwise? This has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I *will* say that *some* competition shooters (not all, not by a long shot) are as good or better than at least some snipers.

A sniper is a highly profesional shooter that specializes in long range shots. Not only people that are traind to be snipers are snipers. Sniper represents a profesional shooting abilty beyound the baisics.

Competition shooters go far beyond the basics.

But assuming that rifts tech allows any one to reach that skill is just silly.

I didn't suggest that technology makes one equal to a sniper.

Why don't we get back to what I *actually* said and why.

You said:

Usaly only snipers take gravity and wind into account in their shooting form most others it is I missed so I adjust.

I said:

Lots and lots of recreational shooters account for wind and gravity. Even I own a copy of Hatcher's Notebook. Read shooting forums and people are all over it. I'm not a match shooter or anything, but if you think it's usually only snipers, unless you're using a different definition of 'sniper' than I am, you're flat wrong. There aren't enough snipers in the world to count as them being the 'usual' folks who account for this. A competition shooter for any sort of range shooting who does NOT account for wind or gravity is destined to lose!

The USUAL shooter that accounts for wind and gravity is a shooting enthusiast. That is not the BEST shooter. That is not the MOST ACCURATE shooter. It is the USUAL shooter.

/Sub

[Blue_Lion]

The causul shooter that worries about the advance adjustments before mastering the basics, actualy is holding himself back. master the basics first then go for the advanced. People think the more tools you use when you shoot the better but that is not always the case. If you forget the advanced stuff practice the basics tell you have them down pat and then moved on to the advanced you whould shoot allot better. That is what I learned as a instructor. Any time I take a novice shooter and give them more than the 4 basics they fail allot more. If I get a shooter that is a causual shooter that is using the advanced stuff while making mistakes on the basics then I have a hard day of retraining.

Simply put if you can not hit a extreamly close small target such as 25m 10/10 times then all the math at a distance does not realy matter as you are just amplifing the misses at close even if you have the right formlila.



The part about rifts weapon tech making any one to be a qualifed sniper because it was not about what you said. But how the whole basics vs advanced shooting got started.

[Killer Cyborg]

Snipers in 3rd ed/pathfinder have a bonus to sneak attack with ranged weapons witch is what a sniper does.

At full range, or just 30' as per 3.x D&D?

[Killer Cyborg]

The real reason I wanted to bring this up is to point out how terrible I think character progression is for Men at Arms and Adventurers/Scholars. For the most part they get no special, class-defining abilities (or at least not anything of particular use) and their power level is defined entirely by the equipment they have.

In real life, most people don't have class-defining abilities.

[Natasha]

You where the one that started it off the books, on the whole requirments.

You realy think they can safly make it so a feather touch sets of what is basicaly a anti tank weapon and then give them to any one? The weapon whould accedently go off all the time. (sorry Sorry sally did not mean to shoot you for the 5th time.) Heck with the amount of force it takes now I have seen people accedently pull the triger for a neglengent discharge. And I have seen people do triger jerk practicing on weapons with no triger. It is a biological thing the jerc to close the finger it does not have to be conected to the force of the pull.

And as I said you are two hung up on the advanced math when to even get to that point you have to master what causes 98% of misses the fundemetentals. Even removing the need for the math whould not allow a mojorty of shooters to sevre as snipers as they have not mastered the basics.

Yes, I think they can make feather touch safe—even beyond a simple safety switch just as they use on today guns. It could even be a voice command or even a thought. That is not really the issue in this discussion. We can get into that discussion about how to make fictional guns safe elsewhere.

Eliminating the complexity of trajectory from gun accuracy is in and of itself a significant improvement in a gun’s accuracy.

The other fundamentals can be mitigated with a bit of intelligent engineering and design using the technology available on Rifts Earth to the point that a character with a Weapon Proficiency shooting an energy gun finds the task of long range accurate shooting markedly easier than his or her today counterpart using conventional firearms. Placing the same constraints that exist on conventional guns onto energy guns does not make very much sense. Shake and sight picture and all that are still fundamentals and still affect accuracy, they just do not do so with the same degree of detriment.

[calto40k]

The real reason I wanted to bring this up is to point out how terrible I think character progression is for Men at Arms and Adventurers/Scholars. For the most part they get no special, class-defining abilities (or at least not anything of particular use) and their power level is defined entirely by the equipment they have.

In real life, most people don't have class-defining abilities.

you know since men at arms and adventurer/scholars come from the average people I concur.

[calto40k]

The real reason I wanted to bring this up is to point out how terrible I think character progression is for Men at Arms and Adventurers/Scholars. For the most part they get no special, class-defining abilities (or at least not anything of particular use) and their power level is defined entirely by the equipment they have.

In real life, most people don't have class-defining abilities.

you know since men at arms and adventurer/scholars come from the average people I concur.

and to add to that you are forgetting about the key part to any of these games.... Role playing

[Killer Cyborg]

From another thread:

Done

Okay, Johnny, here's my take:
1. You have a poor character concept for virtually ANY RPG, because RPGs are built around conflict, not built around silently sniping people from a distance, without any real resistance. Very few RPGs would let you create such a built, not against a comparable foe.
(And if we're talking incomparable foes, then you can have your character snipe SDC foes all day, all night, without a problem, so there's no issue).

Arguable, Rogues in pathfinder rely heavily on being able to catch their opponent off guard or defenseless to deal their sneak attack damage and they are one of the better martial classes. And since they can use it with ranged weapons they are pretty effective "snipers".

And at low levels, this means what... an extra d6 damage?
How many one-shot-kills does that get you against non-mooks?
Heck, even at high levels, how many one-shot-kills does that get you against non-mooks?

a D6 is HUGE at that level, and you more than doubled your damage out put right there. Most CR 1 creatures only have 10 or so HP, so you can reliably one-shot of non-mook enemies if you can catch them off guard. At higher levels if you build your character right you can still one shot most enemies. I won't get into the specifics of how it's done since this isn't really the place for a Pathfinder rules discussion.

I think he used mook as any non-boss rank and file monster. So he is calling all CR 1 creatures mooks. So yes 90% of what you fight could be killed in one shot but it whould be anti climatic of a gm to let the end boss of his dungen or what ever die that easy.

Nah... "Mooks" in this case would be what were called "minions" in D&D (iirc).
If a CR 1 creature is supposed to be a decent fight for a level 1 character, then I wouldn't count it as a mook.

But I don't know that I'd call an extra d6 "huge."
It's an average of +3.5 damage, yes... but a fighter can get just as big of a bonus from Strength.
Although I'm going off of D&D, not Pathfinder, so maybe things are different in that game.

[Killer Cyborg]

a D6 is HUGE at that level, and you more than doubled your damage out put right there.

Unless you're using a weapon that does less than 1D6 damage (a dagger, et al), this is flatly incorrect. If you have a strength bonus, it's also largely incorrect.

/Sub

A rogue is likely rocking a Shortsword (1D6) and is probably Dex built at that level, so no I'm pretty much right. But if you want to get into an argument about specific builds then feel free to PM me.

and this has what to do with rifts? (besides comparing it with another system)

The thread is based on a comparison of Rifts to other systems in the arena of sniping, which ties in to sneak attacks.
So it all fits, as far as I'm concerned, although I agree that we don't need to get TOO crunchy about it.

[Blue_Lion]

You where the one that started it off the books, on the whole requirments.

You realy think they can safly make it so a feather touch sets of what is basicaly a anti tank weapon and then give them to any one? The weapon whould accedently go off all the time. (sorry Sorry sally did not mean to shoot you for the 5th time.) Heck with the amount of force it takes now I have seen people accedently pull the triger for a neglengent discharge. And I have seen people do triger jerk practicing on weapons with no triger. It is a biological thing the jerc to close the finger it does not have to be conected to the force of the pull.

And as I said you are two hung up on the advanced math when to even get to that point you have to master what causes 98% of misses the fundemetentals. Even removing the need for the math whould not allow a mojorty of shooters to sevre as snipers as they have not mastered the basics.

Yes, I think they can make feather touch safe—even beyond a simple safety switch just as they use on today guns. It could even be a voice command or even a thought. That is not really the issue in this discussion. We can get into that discussion about how to make fictional guns safe elsewhere.

Eliminating the complexity of trajectory from gun accuracy is in and of itself a significant improvement in a gun’s accuracy.

The other fundamentals can be mitigated with a bit of intelligent engineering and design using the technology available on Rifts Earth to the point that a character with a Weapon Proficiency shooting an energy gun finds the task of long range accurate shooting markedly easier than his or her today counterpart using conventional firearms. Placing the same constraints that exist on conventional guns onto energy guns does not make very much sense. Shake and sight picture and all that are still fundamentals and still affect accuracy, they just do not do so with the same degree of detriment.

So let me see what you want to do. Take a guy in gloves and give him something with even less than the simple easy to use triger feed back to know he is about to shoot? And you think that is safe. A voice comand gun or thaght controled gun is not the standard and both have issue. Might I remind you of out little friend breath control as you speak you exhale causing your longs to deflate changing your point of aim. Mind activated weapons usaly fall under TWs area of expertiease.

What you are thinking of as triger jerk is for the most part not a issue in modern assult/sniper rifles. It is only common when you fire a side arm in single action. The trigger jerk on modern military rifles comes from people rushing to pull the trigger instead of the gradual preasure. In other words your solution is not only not safe but whould not adress people ressing to push the button.

You are under the impresion that rifts tech can take all the human error out of the CS grunts job. That is not the case. I am just going to leave it with I disagree with you and you have the right to be wrong if you so choice.

[Blue_Lion]

a D6 is HUGE at that level, and you more than doubled your damage out put right there.

Unless you're using a weapon that does less than 1D6 damage (a dagger, et al), this is flatly incorrect. If you have a strength bonus, it's also largely incorrect.

/Sub

A rogue is likely rocking a Shortsword (1D6) and is probably Dex built at that level, so no I'm pretty much right. But if you want to get into an argument about specific builds then feel free to PM me.

and this has what to do with rifts? (besides comparing it with another system)

The thread is based on a comparison of Rifts to other systems in the arena of sniping, which ties in to sneak attacks.
So it all fits, as far as I'm concerned, although I agree that we don't need to get TOO crunchy about it.

For the damage of a rougue starting out the addtion of d6 is a major upgrade as it doubles damage of most rouge weapons before other bonuses. Now let game maybe not as much. It is a mater of prespective, it may be your opion that one extra dice does not mater but to otehrs they do.

[Killer Cyborg]

For the damage of a rougue starting out the addtion of d6 is a major upgrade as it doubles damage of most rouge weapons before other bonuses. Now let game maybe not as much. It is a mater of prespective, it may be your opion that one extra dice does not mater but to otehrs they do.

It's not that it doesn't matter, it's that it's not going to make a lot of one-shot kills.
You upgrade from 1d6 to 2d6, that matters. You're going from an average damage of 3.5 to an average damage of 7... but an average damage of 7 still isn't going to one-shot-kill many non-mook opponents.
It bumps a three-shot kill on average to a two-shot kill on average, sure.
But one-shots? Not so much.

[Subjugator]

The causul shooter that worries about the advance adjustments before mastering the basics, actualy is holding himself back. master the basics first then go for the advanced.

You are making gross assumptions that the people of whom I speak have not mastered the basics. Do not add to my words to reach your conclusions about what I mean and you will be correct in understanding my words far more often. Why do you keep talking about things that are entirely different than what I actually said?

/Sub

[Blue_Lion]

The causul shooter that worries about the advance adjustments before mastering the basics, actualy is holding himself back. master the basics first then go for the advanced.

You are making gross assumptions that the people of whom I speak have not mastered the basics. Do not add to my words to reach your conclusions about what I mean and you will be correct in understanding my words far more often. Why do you keep talking about things that are entirely different than what I actually said?

/Sub

I did not say they could not have mastered the basics what i said is the ones that jump in over their head for the advance before they master the basics hold them selfs back. I have seen many that did it wrong because they read about all the advance stuff so that what they focus on. Those are the ones I made that statment about.

Even a causal shooter that masterst the basics then moves on to the the advanced develps the skilsl to be a sniper, and thou they might see themselfs as causal they are at the professional level. Professional level skill at shooting does not mean you are the best the world, it means you could if you wanted to make a living shooting targets. Most people whould not chooce to shoot people for money so they do not persue that field of work.

[Subjugator]

The causul shooter that worries about the advance adjustments before mastering the basics, actualy is holding himself back. master the basics first then go for the advanced.

You are making gross assumptions that the people of whom I speak have not mastered the basics. Do not add to my words to reach your conclusions about what I mean and you will be correct in understanding my words far more often. Why do you keep talking about things that are entirely different than what I actually said?

/Sub

I did not say they could not have mastered the basics what i said is the ones that jump in over their head for the advance before they master the basics hold them selfs back. I have seen many that did it wrong because they read about all the advance stuff so that what they focus on. Those are the ones I made that statment about.

Even a causal shooter that masterst the basics then moves on to the the advanced develps the skilsl to be a sniper, and thou they might see themselfs as causal they are at the professional level. Professional level skill at shooting does not mean you are the best the world, it means you could if you wanted to make a living shooting targets. Most people whould not chooce to shoot people for money so they do not persue that field of work.

So in other words you're starting a new conversation with only minimal relation to what I've been talking about.

Gotcha.

Well, since I'm still addressing what you originally said, you remain wrong about those things. I'd appreciate it if you'd address that.

/Sub

[Blue_Lion]

I was not wrong infact your wording of usal shooter was wrong. As the most common shooters do not worry about the math. Those are not the causaul shooters at ranges, but often people that live country and shoot with minimal thaght into it. I was simply stating my expernce, some one that sees himself as a casual shooter but trying to use the advanced before they have the basics will fail.

I even specifed that my point of veiw is bassed off army, the ones that worry about the advanced are the pro-level/sniper. In combat you do not have time to think about how XYZ affect the impact you shoot a aimed shot if you miss you adujust from the point of impact if you can and try again.

You speak from your exparnce and I speak from mine. My statement that tring to use the advanced stuff before you master the basics is not wrong. My orginal statment that the leading causes of missing are the 4 fundmentals, and that at normal engament ranges the affects of gravity and normal wind is negligbal on a man sized target are not wrong. My statement that rifts energy weapons do not have the abilty to turn any one into a effective sniper because they do not remove the leading causes of misses is not wrong.

So tell me what have I said that was flat wrong? Maybe I did not adress your statment in the words you wanted but I do not see what I said that was wrong please clarifiy.

[Subjugator]

I was not wrong infact your wording of usal shooter was wrong. As the most common shooters do not worry about the math.

1. Wrong again. I never said they use the math. I said they account for it, and they do. Once again, do not add to my words. I'll add to that the idea that you should not subtract from my words either. First go with EXACTLY what is said. If that is sufficient to form an idea, that is the best place to be to understnad my intent. Only if it does not form a complete idea should one seek to add or remove words from what I post.

2. You said that snipers don't account for the math either, so which is it. Is the math used in accounting for wind and gravity or not?

A sniper in the US army does 0 math, his spoter does the math and tells the sniper how to adjust.

Those are not the causaul shooters at ranges, but often people that live country and shoot with minimal thaght into it. I was simply stating my expernce, some one that sees himself as a casual shooter but trying to use the advanced before they have the basics will fail.

I said shooting enthusiasts. YOU said casual. In this case you either removed from AND added to my words, OR you are not addressing what I said.

Which is it?

I said shooting enthusiasts are the most common type of person who accounts for wind and gravity. You said snipers are. You are demonstrably wrong.

I even specifed that my point of veiw is bassed off army, the ones that worry about the advanced are the pro-level/sniper. In combat you do not have time to think about how XYZ affect the impact you shoot a aimed shot if you miss you adujust from the point of impact if you can and try again. You speak from your exparnce and I speak from mine.

Whether or not your point of view is based off army, you're incorrect. This is not a matter of 'point of view', but numbers. How many snipers are there in the armed services? How many shooting enthusiasts are there in the USA? Not just people who own guns, mind you, but enthusiasts? Well, since between 39% and 50% of households in the USA own guns, so it's between 122M and 157M people. Of that population, I'd estimate that 10% are enthusiasts and not just shooting once in a while. That puts us to 12.2M and 15.7M people that are enthusiastic about it. Figure 1/3 of the enthusiasts account for drop and wind. That gives us a number higher than the ENTIRE population of the armed forces of the US.

Yes. The usual shooter accounts for wind and drop.

My statement that tring to use the advanced stuff before you master the basics is not wrong.

I never disputed that. Why you keep going back to it when I didn't dispute it is entirely beyond me.

So tell me what have I said that was flat wrong? Maybe I did not adress your statment in the words you wanted but I do not see what I said that was wrong please clarifiy.

I quoted it before and specifically noted what it was in that quote. Here is what you said that is wrong.

Usaly only snipers take gravity and wind into account in their shooting form most others it is I missed so I adjust.

This is entirely incorrect. It is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of numeric fact. The average Army battalion has 27 snipers in it. That's out of between 300 and 1200 soldiers. Assuming it's the best for your position, we can go with 10% of the entire army being snipers (grossly inaccurate, but we can do it). That would give us about 56,000 snipers for the US army.

There's WAY more than that number of civilian shooters that account for gravity and wind.

/Sub

[glitterboy2098]

so far none of this discussion of "how to shoot" has anything to do with the Original Post and topic..

[calto40k]

Just Blue Lion Derailing another thread... Also blue lion you keep doing a disservice to the army with the things you are spewing.

[Natasha]

You where the one that started it off the books, on the whole requirments.

You realy think they can safly make it so a feather touch sets of what is basicaly a anti tank weapon and then give them to any one? The weapon whould accedently go off all the time. (sorry Sorry sally did not mean to shoot you for the 5th time.) Heck with the amount of force it takes now I have seen people accedently pull the triger for a neglengent discharge. And I have seen people do triger jerk practicing on weapons with no triger. It is a biological thing the jerc to close the finger it does not have to be conected to the force of the pull.

And as I said you are two hung up on the advanced math when to even get to that point you have to master what causes 98% of misses the fundemetentals. Even removing the need for the math whould not allow a mojorty of shooters to sevre as snipers as they have not mastered the basics.

Yes, I think they can make feather touch safe—even beyond a simple safety switch just as they use on today guns. It could even be a voice command or even a thought. That is not really the issue in this discussion. We can get into that discussion about how to make fictional guns safe elsewhere.

Eliminating the complexity of trajectory from gun accuracy is in and of itself a significant improvement in a gun’s accuracy.

The other fundamentals can be mitigated with a bit of intelligent engineering and design using the technology available on Rifts Earth to the point that a character with a Weapon Proficiency shooting an energy gun finds the task of long range accurate shooting markedly easier than his or her today counterpart using conventional firearms. Placing the same constraints that exist on conventional guns onto energy guns does not make very much sense. Shake and sight picture and all that are still fundamentals and still affect accuracy, they just do not do so with the same degree of detriment.

So let me see what you want to do. Take a guy in gloves and give him something with even less than the simple easy to use triger feed back to know he is about to shoot? And you think that is safe. A voice comand gun or thaght controled gun is not the standard and both have issue. Might I remind you of out little friend breath control as you speak you exhale causing your longs to deflate changing your point of aim. Mind activated weapons usaly fall under TWs area of expertiease.

What you are thinking of as triger jerk is for the most part not a issue in modern assult/sniper rifles. It is only common when you fire a side arm in single action. The trigger jerk on modern military rifles comes from people rushing to pull the trigger instead of the gradual preasure. In other words your solution is not only not safe but whould not adress people ressing to push the button.

You are under the impresion that rifts tech can take all the human error out of the CS grunts job. That is not the case. I am just going to leave it with I disagree with you and you have the right to be wrong if you so choice.

Like I said, the conversation about gun safety is for another thread. I am not under the impression that Rifts tech can take all human error out of the grunt’s job; I do not know where you get that from but it is certainly ought not to be from anything I have said. It occurs to me that you might not know what the word “mitigate” means.

[Natasha]

so far none of this discussion of "how to shoot" has anything to do with the Original Post and topic..

I was trying to keep it related. Here it is again, without the noise. It was mentioned that a Rifts adventurer ought to have more than just a weapons proficiency to shoot at a weapon’s effective range. I offered the opinion that it is not such a reach because the Rifts adventurer shoots under improved conditions due to improved technology and weapon designs. I suggested that if he or she can see the target, then hitting it becomes easier due to the removal of all environmental effects that degrade conventional gun shooting accuracy as well as technology and design that could mitigate the shooter elements which degrade conventional gun shooting accuracy.

[Mack]

Just Blue Lion Derailing another thread... Also blue lion you keep doing a disservice to the army with the things you are spewing.

Address the topic, not each other.

[Giant2005]

Gun Masters are the class of choice for sniping in Rifts.
They geta amazing bonuses with guns, including significant strike and rate of fire bonuses.
They have higher than norm range without penalty.
They have an ability that gives a +6 strike bonus and automatically crits (triple damage on a natural 19 or 20).
They can also make SD weapons inflict MD which is extremely broken with a Phase Weapon or kind of cool when using one of Viggo's custom firearms from Dinosaur Swamp (They have a unique ability to increase the crit range of the user on aimed shots - that ability to do triple damage on a 19 or 20 could do triple damage on a 17-20 with one of those. Coupled with explosive rounds doing triple damage makes for an extremely powerful rifle).

and once you leave china say bye bye to all the chi you need to use said powers

Half the chi.

[Ravenwing]

D20 Modern and it's various settings did the whole sniper one shot one kill thing best.

1st level character
Take the Dextrous class. Sneak attack/Ranged Sneak Attack.
Take Soldier Occupation: Grants Advanced Firearms Prof.
1st level Feat Improved Crit. Barret .50 cal Sniper Rifle( Becomes 18-20 x3 )
Bonus Human Feat: Called Shot.

Results: Aim for head, roll to hit( Assuming +5 Bonus for 18 Dex and first level) Auto Crit,(Because of location) 2d12 Damage( Two 6's rolled on average) 12x3= 36 Damage.
Target makes save against Massive Damage: DC 36 ( 10 + plus 26 for overspill assuming 1st level target with 10 VP). The target would need a nat 20 to save.
Thus the Target dies from massive damage. Roll Move Silently and Hide check, move to new position, repeat.

[Giant2005]

Gun Masters are the class of choice for sniping in Rifts.
They geta amazing bonuses with guns, including significant strike and rate of fire bonuses.
They have higher than norm range without penalty.
They have an ability that gives a +6 strike bonus and automatically crits (triple damage on a natural 19 or 20).
They can also make SD weapons inflict MD which is extremely broken with a Phase Weapon or kind of cool when using one of Viggo's custom firearms from Dinosaur Swamp (They have a unique ability to increase the crit range of the user on aimed shots - that ability to do triple damage on a 19 or 20 could do triple damage on a 17-20 with one of those. Coupled with explosive rounds doing triple damage makes for an extremely powerful rifle).

and once you leave china say bye bye to all the chi you need to use said powers

Half the chi.

Like I stated earlier you lose half your Chi as well as bonuses. While it wouldn't be a huge problem for a higher level Gun Master, lower level ones are not going to be as effective as a Gunslinger.

They lose half their Chi and -1 to all combat bonuses but then again, they start with +2 strike, +1 parry and dodge over that of a Slinger. So losing 1 of each makes them better than a Gunmaster still.

[Giant2005]

Like I stated earlier you lose half your Chi as well as bonuses. While it wouldn't be a huge problem for a higher level Gun Master, lower level ones are not going to be as effective as a Gunslinger.

They lose half their Chi and -1 to all combat bonuses but then again, they start with +2 strike, +1 parry and dodge over that of a Slinger. So losing 1 of each makes them better than a Gunmaster still.

Lose half of permanent ISP/Chi, range, duration and damage reduced by half.

But all of those negatives only effect their Chi abilities, even without using the Chi abilities at all they are better having an extra +1 strike above a Slinger. Granted that isn't much which I guess is your point at low levels but at higher levels they get a whole lot more bonuses (including several extra actions per melee) that a Gunmaster doesn't.

[kaid]

Demanding a cannonical quote in a respaunce to a line of thaght witch you started that is compleatly off the books? I teach a class from FM 3-22.9 so that is the book I use. However my training and expernce goes well beyound what I read in books.

I did not say the barrel genreated the moementum I said it chaned part of the forward momentum into lift to cuase the bullet to rise.

The fall of the hammer has nothing to do with triger jerk. The triger only realse the catch on the hammer unless you have a single action weapon. The triger jerk is caused by people rushing to pull the triger causing a jerking the method you listed of steady even presure is the counter, this happens with even the smootherest mechanical pulls. They do not pull the triger but attempt to jerk their finder back, most are not aware they are doing it so it a subconcios acton. Training to counter it is the washer/dime trainind. Our sniper rifles already have realy touchy tigers any more reduction in the force needed to pull the triger whould cause a increase in weapons going off when you do not want them to. So you can not safly reduce it more than we have.

Again you are over thinking the math of the basics.

A sniper in the US army does 0 math, his spoter does the math and tells the sniper how to adjust. The sniper only uses the 4 basic fundementals of markmenship. They not only include known varbiles in the ballistic trajectory of the individual weapon. But case specific varibles but as curntly this math is not beeing done by the shooter it does not change who has the skill to be a sniper.

The 4 fundmentals of basic markmeneship are important because they cuase 98% of combat and training misses. Regaurdless of how advanced a shooter is it is the 4 fundementals of markmenship that make a difrence. Those that learn to shoot learn this difrent ways but they all use them as the basis. You are focusing on what is beyound the basic skill needed to hit the target.

You can question the 4 fundmentals but they are called those because they are the major mistakes people make. In most combat engments with small arms they are the leading cause of misses fallowed by weapon malfunctions. I am not some arm chair genreal saying what i think from a book but what I know not only from the books but first hand expearnce. Ask any one who served in the army to name the 4 fundementals and they will know it.

I am not off the books anymore than you are.

I did not say it was the fall of the hammer but the work required to make the hammer fall. Squeeze, don’t pull. An energy gun can have a much smoother and simpler trigger—if you have ever used a touch screen device, you’ve used an example of it. There are many ways to simplify the triggering mechanism of an energy gun, especially a fictional one.

Momentum does not accelerate itself. It is a scalar value while force is a vector value. Force can change a bullet’s momentum. Re-read that wiki article on trajectory and point to me where there is acceleration anywhere except by gravity. There are only three data points in trajectory: acceleration by gravity, muzzle velocity, and launch angle. That’s it, if to neglect frictional forces which neither a sniper nor an observer can measure without a ton of practice in many different situations.. Show me where there is a lifting force in ballistic trajectories.

I am actually focusing on the very basics of shooting. Trajectory is fundamentally basic to shooting today guns. By removing the whole question of trajectory by using energy weapons, everything is simplified and accuracy is easier to achieve. Straight lines are actually easier to deal with than trajectories.

I am not questioning the four fundamentals. I am explaining how a bit of intelligent engineering can greatly if not completely mitigate their diminishing effects on accuracy.

Neither am I impressed by your appeals to authority, which themselves are not very forceful.

One still needs the basics as mentioned but energy weapons would make a lot of it easier to pick up. There is no recoil or loud noises to flinch from and the projectile is effectively instantaneous over its listed range. One thing I see that messes up newbie shooters is anticipation of the recoil or the noise. They wind up flinching as they start pulling the trigger back which tends to make them yoink the trigger or move the gun out of position trying to compensate for recoil that has not hit yet.

As for gravity depending on the weapons you can easily see the effects of gravity even in normal range conditions. Such as shooting many types of pistols at the mid range/farther range targets you can get bullet drops of 6 inches plus pretty easy which is easy enough to compensate for if you are well trained but still a factor. Now add in moving targets watching a show on snipers one guy from the marines who was in iraq was describing one massive sniper engagement he had and he was leading fast running targets by over three feet to compensate for the bullet travel time and wind. Now he amazingly was making those shots repeatedly but how much easier would it be when you can aim directly at your targets head than where you think his head is going to be when the bullet gets there.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

This is all so interesting but comes to down nothing to do with rifts!
Like I said the sniper skill needs to be reworked until an more useful skill.

[Natasha]

Or view snipers as a tool in the commander’s toolbox to be used for the job designed to be done. It seems to me that the primary problem is that generally people want to shoehorn snipers into parts of the operational spectrum they have no place in.

[Subjugator]

People also need to remember that if snipers were so capable of a one-shot kill, they'd be used against the PCs.

/Sub

[glitterboy2098]

regarding MDC armor and sniping..
rifter 23 has the CS Target Acquisition Groups article, with some optional rules for sniping through armor. basically for a small penalty to your called shot, you can pick out a point of aim that will let you do massive amounts of damage even with the weaker weapons.

IIRC, Adventures in Dinosaur Swamp has a similar (and official) type of mechanic presented for MDC animals, where careful aim can let a player use even SDC rifles to bring down big MDC creatures like dinosaurs, by shooting them in weaker places like the eyes, ears, etc.
this mechanic should be adaptable to let a sniper take down human targets in MDC armor by shooting out an eyepeice, getting through the neck ring, shoot through a joint, a known flaw in the armor, or what have you.

since Sniping is all about picking your point of aim carefully, MDC armor and weapons just mean you have to aim more carefully.

reposted from my earlier post since this actually solves most of the original poster's complaints. using either of these optional rules will help deal with the weapon vs armor dichotomy of the game.

also don't forget that according to RUE pg 361, you can shoot out to 30% longer than the listed range of a weapon, but at a penalty to strike.

between the WP bonuses (especially at higher levels), the bonus from the sniper skill, bonuses from gun mods like scopes and balancing,, and the aimed called shot bonus you can easily add up some very good to strike bonuses on a sniper shot. the only real constraint in the system is the fact it takes multiple hits to put down a target with most guns.. but the above rules offer a way to sidestep that issue legally.

[Hot Rod]

People also need to remember that if snipers were so capable of a one-shot kill, they'd be used against the PCs.

/Sub

I generally let players do what they plan & if the plan works it works. I also warn them at the start of the campaign anything they can do NPCs can do too. So yes, I would allow a sniper to take down an unsuspecting target, once, per group of targets... but if they don't keep their own position and alertness appropriately tight it will happen to them... In the interest of keeping the game fun though I would wait until a player had at least tried this tactic before using it on them, along with other 'unfair' tactics unless they had cause to expect such.

But since I don't generally RP PCs going to the can they do become paranoid if the POV(story) suddenly follows them into the bush...

Haven't found any of the ballistics talk useful at all unfortunately. 90% simply does not apply to energy weapons. (Bullets with 'lift' hahaha) Energy weapons beyond listed range should have +x to hit and 1/2 (or 1/4) damage due to loss of beam focus (no aimed shot possible). Rail guns however should have much longer potential ranges with computer assisted aiming at the energy they supposedly put into each round... (not flechette though, magnetically accelerating multiple rounds at once would be a nightmare as the rounds attract or repel each other under influence of the launch field )

HR

[Subjugator]

Haven't found any of the ballistics talk useful at all unfortunately. 90% simply does not apply to energy weapons. (Bullets with 'lift' hahaha)

Um. I'm not sure if you're laughing at that idea or at the idea of it happening to an energy weapon (they wouldn't - obviously) or at the idea of a bullet having lift, but upon leaving a barrel, they *do* have lift. Go read a ballistics chart if you don't believe it.

Energy weapons beyond listed range should have +x to hit and 1/2 (or 1/4) damage due to loss of beam focus (no aimed shot possible). Rail guns however should have much longer potential ranges with computer assisted aiming at the energy they supposedly put into each round... (not flechette though, magnetically accelerating multiple rounds at once would be a nightmare as the rounds attract or repel each other under influence of the launch field )

HR

Energy weapons should be at a penalty to hit at long range because of the magnification of any slight motion one has while firing.

/Sub

[Natasha]

Haven't found any of the ballistics talk useful at all unfortunately. 90% simply does not apply to energy weapons. (Bullets with 'lift' hahaha)

Um. I'm not sure if you're laughing at that idea or at the idea of it happening to an energy weapon (they wouldn't - obviously) or at the idea of a bullet having lift, but upon leaving a barrel, they *do* have lift. Go read a ballistics chart if you don't believe it.

No lift. The trajectory is a result of the launch angle.

[flatline]

Haven't found any of the ballistics talk useful at all unfortunately. 90% simply does not apply to energy weapons. (Bullets with 'lift' hahaha)

Um. I'm not sure if you're laughing at that idea or at the idea of it happening to an energy weapon (they wouldn't - obviously) or at the idea of a bullet having lift, but upon leaving a barrel, they *do* have lift. Go read a ballistics chart if you don't believe it.

No lift. The trajectory is a result of the launch angle.

This is my understanding also. The angle of the barrel changes as part of the recoil before the projectile exits the gun.

This is one of the reasons that sights need to be adjusted for different shooters. People with firm grips shoot lower with the same sights than people with weaker grips because the barrel rises less.

--flatline

[Jefffar]

Here's a fun fact, every modern sniper rifle, and the vast majority of modern combat rifles actually already shoot more accurately than the human holding them is capable of taking full advantage of. Upgrading to energy weapons will not change this. The limiting factor in accuracy of weapons currently is the operator, not the gun.

I think someone else was trying to explain this point but was over complicating things.

[say652]

on future weapons i saw a 50 cal that used a computer to gauge wind distance, basically aim the thing and was accurate up to 2.5 miles away. Mack Rocks!

[Vrykolas2k]

also to be quite honest it has been said that characters (pc and npc) cannot spend all their time in armor without penalty, let alone the funk that would be coming off of their bodies, just think about it can you take a dump in a full suit of eba, not that i know of so your sniper could hide out near where the enemy goes to drop the kids off at the pool.

Of course, EBA should be designed like a still-suit as far as I'm concerned.

[Killer Cyborg]

Here's a fun fact, every modern sniper rifle, and the vast majority of modern combat rifles actually already shoot more accurately than the human holding them is capable of taking full advantage of. Upgrading to energy weapons will not change this. The limiting factor in accuracy of weapons currently is the operator, not the gun.

That IS fun!

[slade the sniper]

Wow, 3 pages of "something" basically say that you can't one shot bad guys in Palladium? Shocker!

As a way to "fix" the sniper skill...

Make the bonuses go up every few levels, such as with other WP's. Give it special bonuses similar to how the Hand to Hand skills are or both. Perhaps something like this:

Sniper: Special WP. Use of this skill reduces the attacks/actions per melee to 1! This skill can only be used in conjunction with rifles or energy rifles. In order to use this skill effectively and still be able to be a viable combatant, recommend delaying the shot until the last action of a particular melee when the target can no longer dodge (unless a juicer, or some other autododge OCC). Fire the single shot and then the next round use the regular WP (unmodified by this skill) to engage targets. Or you can have your spotter engage those targets if necessary and the sniper continually engages one target per melee.

level: benefit
1: +2 to hit with a single shot fired from a rifle
2: Crit Multiple on a called shot is x3
3: Death blow on a modified 20 or higher (must be declared)
4: +3 to hit with a single shot fired from a rifle
5: +20% to maximum range of a single shot fired from a rifle
6: Critical strike on a modified 19-20
7: +4 to hit with a single shot fired from a rifle
8: +30% to maximum range of a single shot fired from a rifle
9: Critical strike on an modified 18-20
10: +5 to hit with a single shot fired from a rifle
11: +40% to maximum range of a single shot fired from a rifle
12: Critical strike on a modified 17-20
13: +6 to hit with a single shot fired from a rifle
14: +50% to maximum range of a single shot fired from a rifle
15: Critical strike on a modified 16-20

Powerful, yes. But not overly so... The sniper skill takes care of getting the bullet on target...but how to get INTO the target?

Use different weapons with different ammo. Granted, this is not canonically correct...

You can steadily climb the ladder of power (using Kitsune as a source): such as: 5.56x45mm doing about 5d6 SDC per round
to the 7.62x51mm doing about 6d6+3 SDC per round
increasing to the .300 WinMag 7d6+3 SDC per round
maxing out with about the .338 Lapua Magnum in terms of standard Anti-Personnel rounds with about 1d4x10 SDC per round
At the top end of the anti-personnel/bottom of the anti-material rifle spectrum you get the .50 BMG with 1d6x10 SDC per round

(personal calculations are below:)
You can use 14.5mm doing 1d8x10 SDC
20mm doing 1d10x10 SDC (or 1 MDC) per round
25mm doing 2d6x10 SDC (or 1 MDC) per round
30mm doing 2d6x10+20 SDC (or 1 MDC) per round

Now that we have a weapon capable of doing some MDC per round...we can see that 20mm to 30mm weaponry is roughly equivalent rail gun rounds (1d4 MDC per round).

NOW, we can start playing with ammo types:
For your small arms you can get AP rounds (to reduce the AR of the bad guys...so that you could maybe penetrate that MDC armor with a .338 Lapua Magnum AP round...)
Tungsten core rounds coupled with a "spoon tip" or loeffelspitzung will give increased penetration with lethality at least equivalent to ball ammo
Increase the velocity with "hotter" loads, all the way up to ramjet rounds (requiring no modification, other than your point of aim) or even beyond (with ElectroThermal Enhancement for all you old Cyberpunks out there).
You can use Dual Purpose ammo, Semi-Light Armor Piercing rounds, Discarding Sabot (like the 6.5mm CBJ which gives AP performance above that of 7.62mm NATO and lethality equivalent to 5.56mm in the same round).

So, I would say that yes, you can load up on a nice big rifle and accurize it (+1 to strike), make some handloads for it (+1 to strike, but only when used with that rifle...some weapons just don't like certain loadings..., and an additional +1d6 of damage), put a nice scope on it with adjustable magnification, BDC, IR and thermal capability, range finder (+2 to strike), have a spotter (calling wind, situational awareness, calling shots, etc... +1 to strike, +2 if they have the sniper skill, which they SHOULD have, since the spotter is actually the more experienced shooter)...a 8th level sniper (using my handy dandy chart above) will be trucking around with a weapon doing 7d6+3 damage (7.62x51mm with handloads), +20% to range, a death blow on a modified 20, crit on a modified 19-20, a +15 to hit (+3 for base WP, +2 for WP level, +4 for skill, +2 for scope, +2 for spotter, +1 for rifle, +1 for handloads)...

If you are shooting center mass declare a death blow, a five or higher on the roll will hit, and +15 will make it a modified 20, thus making the shot both a crit and a death blow... Roll for damage 7d6+3 averages out to 24 SDC, but it is AP (doing this from work so can't remember, but isn't the damage doubled or AR is reduced?...meh can't remember, for now I will say damage is doubled vs hard targets) so the damage is now 48 and it is a crit so the damage is x3 = 144 damage.

Then it becomes a GM call...how do you want to rule that. Does the faceplate on the armor somehow have the same resiliency as every other piece of the armor (so that the faceplate has 80 MDC?). If it does, then sniping will never be a viable tactic...

Spoiler:

The ballistics stuff was...somewhat entertaining since it was not factual. Bullets do not have lift. In the same way you "aim" when throwing a football or a baseball, the projectile is launched at an angle so that with the forces of gravity, drag, and wind, the bullet will intersect with the target. The idea is pretty simple, the numbers are pain...which is why...weapons have adjustable sights and mil dot reticles and you learn (or write down) your hold offs for ranges and winds and why you have a cold zero and why a day at the range is literally a full day at the range.

Seriously, there are manuals/books out there that with a good rifle, a few weeks and few hundred rounds (a spotter would help too) you could teach yourself the fundamentals of long range marksmanship pretty easily. The three best (in my opinion) are FM 23-10, "The Ultimate Sniper" by John L. Plaster and "Understanding Firearms Ballistics" by Robert Rinker. A good website for some general info is: http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase.html

-STS

[slade the sniper]

Any feedback?

-STS

[Giant2005]

Any feedback?

-STS

It seems powerful but reducing yourself to only one attack is a fair trade-off.
A couple of things though:
I already endorsed the reduction of attacks but I don't like arbitrary reductions like that. A low-leveled soldier with only 4 actions loses a lot less than a veteran with 15 actions. A static subtraction is usually a better route than an arbitrary reduction.
Secondly, your alteration has removed the potential for an Archer to take the skill. The bow is the most accurate weapon in Palladium, gaining the benefit of all h2h strike bonuses (PP, martial arts skills etc.), sharpshooting bonuses and the sniper skill. As such, it is the most efficient tool in the hands of the sniper - buffing the sniper skill but removing the potential for its use with the sniper's weapon of choice is a mistake. I prefer the canon skill for that very reason, even if I am not a huge fan of the canon skill.

[flatline]

The bow is the most accurate weapon in Palladium, gaining the benefit of all h2h strike bonuses (PP, martial arts skills etc.), sharpshooting bonuses and the sniper skill.

Wow. If that's true, then we have another example of where canon rules deviate dramatically and indefensibly from reality.

--flatline

[slade the sniper]

The bow is the most accurate weapon in Palladium, gaining the benefit of all h2h strike bonuses (PP, martial arts skills etc.), sharpshooting bonuses and the sniper skill.

Wow. If that's true, then we have another example of where canon rules deviate dramatically and indefensibly from reality.

--flatline

Having the bow be more accurate is pretty bizarre. I suppose that within the range of the bow, that "might" be defensible with some of the N&SS MAFs but just a bow vs a firearm...I don't buy it.

As for the reduction of attacks, I can understand that an automatic reduction to 1 is pretty harsh, but I just don't see how Juicers and Crazies can "aim" faster...I suppose they can, but would a reduction of -5 actions be more appropriate?

I think the biggest obstacle is what rules are in place that specifically relate to penetrating armor.

-STS