Zentraedi Turrets.... How big is it?

[ArmySGT.]

What are the dimensions for the Zentraedi retractable laser turret? The Zentraedi book by Palladium doesn't give any physical dimensions or power requirements... and I would like to retrofit them onto something else.

These turrets Zentraedi Retractable Laser Turret

[DhAkael]

the "dome part" is roughly the hieght of a Vf-1 in Battroid mode.
You'll have to get a hold of some of the earlier episodes of Macross True / Robotech Series 1 but there are a couple of quick flashes of a Vf or two standing close to one of the turrets.
Then again, this series was animated using "Scale is what ever the hell is most dramatic" style
Simmilar to Evagellion

[ArmySGT.]

the "dome part" is roughly the hieght of a Vf-1 in Battroid mode.
You'll have to get a hold of some of the earlier episodes of Macross True / Robotech Series 1 but there are a couple of quick flashes of a Vf or two standing close to one of the turrets.
Then again, this series was animated using "Scale is what ever the hell is most dramatic" style
Simmilar to Evagellion

Approximately 42 feet then?

[Seto Kaiba]

What are the dimensions for the Zentraedi retractable laser turret? The Zentraedi book by Palladium doesn't give any physical dimensions or power requirements... and I would like to retrofit them onto something else.

I'm not surprised that Palladium didn't go into that level of detail... their access to the original source material was minimal when they wrote 1E, so they likely wouldn't have printed that info even if they knew where to find it. As far as size goes, the regular guided beam cannon turrets on Zentradi starships are about 14.5m across the body of the ball, and the guides are about 20m long. How much power each gun uses in the Robotech version is anyone's guess, since that setting's been established to do things on a rather lower level than Macross in terms of firepower and power generation, among other things. If you're adapting them to human ships, I'd say that any given ship could only support 1/2 as many Zentradi turrets as they could the much shorter ranged and less powerful human-built beam gun turrets. (They're almost certainly in the hundreds of megawatts or even low-gigawatts range in their Macross incarnation, though.)

Then again, this series was animated using "Scale is what ever the hell is most dramatic" style

No it wasn't. The level of detail the creators put into it is, frankly, easily bordering on obsessive in many cases.

[jaymz]

Simple answer? The size of a VF-1 plus the "barrel" length.

[Alrik Vas]

This probably means the housing for it is enormous. Remember the 'barrel' retracts when not being fired, so you have a 20m deep storage for each gun. Takes up a crap ton of space on a human ship.

[ArmySGT.]

This probably means the housing for it is enormous. Remember the 'barrel' retracts when not being fired, so you have a 20m deep storage for each gun. Takes up a crap ton of space on a human ship.

If it is going to stay on a Ship that doesn't enter an atmosphere at all then, dispensing with the equipment and stowage needed to retract the gun into a housing is acceptable.

[jaymz]

This probably means the housing for it is enormous. Remember the 'barrel' retracts when not being fired, so you have a 20m deep storage for each gun. Takes up a crap ton of space on a human ship.

If it is going to stay on a Ship that doesn't enter an atmosphere at all then, dispensing with the equipment and stowage needed to retract the gun into a housing is acceptable.

Yep just look at the Ikazuchi's turrets.

[Seto Kaiba]

This probably means the housing for it is enormous. Remember the 'barrel' retracts when not being fired, so you have a 20m deep storage for each gun. Takes up a crap ton of space on a human ship.

Closer to 35m, since the storage "well" for the gun has to accommodate both the focusing waveguide barrel and the turret's body, and an armored cover for the entire affair. Probably not an issue if ArmySGT is going to have them ICly put on ships that aren't atmosphere-capable though.

[ArmySGT.]

This probably means the housing for it is enormous. Remember the 'barrel' retracts when not being fired, so you have a 20m deep storage for each gun. Takes up a crap ton of space on a human ship.

Closer to 35m, since the storage "well" for the gun has to accommodate both the focusing waveguide barrel and the turret's body, and an armored cover for the entire affair. Probably not an issue if ArmySGT is going to have them ICly put on ships that aren't atmosphere-capable though.

Actually I was thinking of space folding nickel iron asteroids into a LaGrange point then outfitting same with radar, lidar, and space fold sensors, using Zentraedi turrets and long range missiles in vertical launch system installations as the offensive firepower.

Then I was considering a submarine outfitted with a single Zentraedi turret as a planetary defense platform. Even with half the range it is still dangerous to anything in near or high orbit.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually I was thinking of space folding nickel iron asteroids into a LaGrange point then outfitting same with radar, lidar, and space fold sensors, using Zentraedi turrets and long range missiles in vertical launch system installations as the offensive firepower.

Hm... an interesting idea, but I'm not sure that a defense installation like that would have much in the way of survivability in any situation where the enemy wasn't defeated by the first barrage. The huge asteroid in "Blind Game" was blown to pieces by the Zentradi with a single salvo. Maybe if the defense installations were unmanned, and operated remotely? Though the Zentradi and Masters advanced ECM would be an issue...

Then I was considering a submarine outfitted with a single Zentraedi turret as a planetary defense platform. Even with half the range it is still dangerous to anything in near or high orbit.

Arming a ballistic missile submarine with reflex warheads would probably provide a more robust, potent defense platform... one that wouldn't have to surface to avoid degradation of its offensive capability.

[ArmySGT.]

Actually I was thinking of space folding nickel iron asteroids into a LaGrange point then outfitting same with radar, lidar, and space fold sensors, using Zentraedi turrets and long range missiles in vertical launch system installations as the offensive firepower.

Hm... an interesting idea, but I'm not sure that a defense installation like that would have much in the way of survivability in any situation where the enemy wasn't defeated by the first barrage. The huge asteroid in "Blind Game" was blown to pieces by the Zentradi with a single salvo. Maybe if the defense installations were unmanned, and operated remotely? Though the Zentradi and Masters advanced ECM would be an issue...

Commanded by remotely by uplink..... Dedicated laser comms are unaffected by ECM.

Then I was considering a submarine outfitted with a single Zentraedi turret as a planetary defense platform. Even with half the range it is still dangerous to anything in near or high orbit.

Arming a ballistic missile submarine with reflex warheads would probably provide a more robust, potent defense platform... one that wouldn't have to surface to avoid degradation of its offensive capability.

Surface passive sensors provide target data for firing solutions. An energy turret doesn't pack as much punch but, isn't out of the fight after one salvo. Admittedly it is not much of a threat to a capital ship however, it is murder to any Clamships, ReEntry pods, or Robotech assault carriers.

A submarine can then execute a crash dive, and survive counter battery fire, to resurface and fire again.

[Seto Kaiba]

Commanded by remotely by uplink..... Dedicated laser comms are unaffected by ECM.

Probably the safest way to go about it, though directed laser communications are vulnerable to interruption by other means (especially atmospheric phenomena, if the control station is planetside) and has a fairly short effective range.

Surface passive sensors provide target data for firing solutions. An energy turret doesn't pack as much punch but, isn't out of the fight after one salvo.

Eh... the Zentradi [guided beam cannons/particle cannons] in question are pretty damn powerful as ship weapons go, but they're pretty thoroughly outclassed by even the smaller [reaction/reflex] warheads in the series. The small ones carried aboard fighters are enough to down a Zentradi line battleship with a near miss... something like a SLBM with higher-yield warheads could really do some damage. Considering the size-vs-yield of those warheads in the OSM, a SLBM could have easily enough oomph to take out a Zentradi ship in one go if the missile makes it to the target. 24 such missiles, as on a modern Ohio-class ballistic missile sub, would be a pretty potent thing. Pretty much a seagoing Oberth-class destroyer, when you think about it...

A submarine can then execute a crash dive, and survive counter battery fire, to resurface and fire again.

Now THAT I'm not so sure about... the beam weaponry of Macross/RT's Macross Saga is pretty damn powerful, and we've seen firsthand that passing through tens or hundreds of kilometers of ocean is no impediment to some of 'em. If a Zentradi ship can detect the sub under the ocean's surface, it's probably not safe from an orbit-to-surface reprisal strike with particle cannons. As massively destructive as some of those cannons get, even a miss could easily produce enough change in the local water pressure to potentially sink a submarine. Against later generation beam weaponry, such as the stuff used by the ASC and UEEF, they'd probably be pretty safe... since that's much less powerful and shorter ranged to boot.

[ArmySGT.]

Commanded by remotely by uplink..... Dedicated laser comms are unaffected by ECM.

Probably the safest way to go about it, though directed laser communications are vulnerable to interruption by other means (especially atmospheric phenomena, if the control station is planetside) and has a fairly short effective range.

Bump up the power and add a confirmation code. A yes or no message received and have back up transmitters, even redundant comms satellites to pass it along.

Surface passive sensors provide target data for firing solutions. An energy turret doesn't pack as much punch but, isn't out of the fight after one salvo.

Eh... the Zentradi [guided beam cannons/particle cannons] in question are pretty damn powerful as ship weapons go, but they're pretty thoroughly outclassed by even the smaller [reaction/reflex] warheads in the series. The small ones carried aboard fighters are enough to down a Zentradi line battleship with a near miss... something like a SLBM with higher-yield warheads could really do some damage. Considering the size-vs-yield of those warheads in the OSM, a SLBM could have easily enough oomph to take out a Zentradi ship in one go if the missile makes it to the target. 24 such missiles, as on a modern Ohio-class ballistic missile sub, would be a pretty potent thing. Pretty much a seagoing Oberth-class destroyer, when you think about it...

Yes however, would they survive the climb up through Earths gravity well? As powerful and as accurate as you make the OSM stats for the Zentraedi cannon during the Rain of Death and the SDF-1s escape a missile seems a poor choice as primary armament. There is no way that a missile could boost up out into microgravity and engage a target before being engaged and destroyed.

A submarine can then execute a crash dive, and survive counter battery fire, to resurface and fire again.

Now THAT I'm not so sure about... the beam weaponry of Macross/RT's Macross Saga is pretty damn powerful, and we've seen firsthand that passing through tens or hundreds of kilometers of ocean is no impediment to some of 'em. If a Zentradi ship can detect the sub under the ocean's surface, it's probably not safe from an orbit-to-surface reprisal strike with particle cannons. As massively destructive as some of those cannons get, even a miss could easily produce enough change in the local water pressure to potentially sink a submarine. Against later generation beam weaponry, such as the stuff used by the ASC and UEEF, they'd probably be pretty safe... since that's much less powerful and shorter ranged to boot.

In all the vastness of the ocean with all the surface clutter and atmospheric effect. Would they pick one out?

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes however, would they survive the climb up through Earths gravity well? As powerful and as accurate as you make the OSM stats for the Zentraedi cannon during the Rain of Death and the SDF-1s escape a missile seems a poor choice as primary armament.

In the Robotech universe, I'd have to go with "Very probably, yes." Earth's principal warships all relied upon missiles with high-yield warheads for their heavy armament. The RPG critically under-sells them, for balance reasons, but they're fairly nasty things in the series... with near-misses being enough to disable Zentradi warships in short order. Even in the Masters Saga, Earth's first line of defense appears to be ground-based missile platforms... though the warheads weren't nearly as agile as the missiles seen in the Macross Saga, and didn't pack the same colossal punch either. Even the New Generation has humanity's biggest (metaphorical) stick come in the form of a missile warhead.

Using missiles with high-yield warheads when a force needs to punch well above its weight class is SOP for Macross and MOSPEADA, a trend that continues handily into their sequels. Massive beam cannons are all well and good, but when you really need to kill a fleet, in almost all cases you send for the ersatz-nukes.

There is no way that a missile could boost up out into microgravity and engage a target before being engaged and destroyed.

You certainly wouldn't conclude that from the show, where nobody but humanity seems to believe in point-defense guns and/or anti-missile countermeasures. The very first shot fired against the Robotech Masters was fired by ground-based missile launchers against a target in the upper atmosphere, and the missiles made it all the way to target unmolested by anything.

In all the vastness of the ocean with all the surface clutter and atmospheric effect. Would they pick one out?

Considering the many demonstrations of absolutely insane precision at extreme long range on the part of the Zentradi in both Robotech and Macross, the only possible answer I can offer is "Yes, absolutely."



EDIT: As far as mounting Zentradi gun turrets on asteroids, s'long as there's a suitably large reactor to power them I'd say it's entirely workable... though I might be inclined to stick them closer to Earth than the Lagrange points, so they could be brought to bear against surface targets as well if an enemy does somehow slip the net. Not sure about the power reqs. vs. a submarine though.

[Alrik Vas]

If the asteroid defenders aren't up to task, aren't you more or less giving your opponent really large bombs to drop on your planet?

[jaymz]

If the asteroid defenders aren't up to task, aren't you more or less giving your opponent really large bombs to drop on your planet?

SHHHHH!!!! The Gundam people might hear you and cry foul/copyright infringement

[ArmySGT.]

If the asteroid defenders aren't up to task, aren't you more or less giving your opponent really large bombs to drop on your planet?

LaGrange points are stable and pretty far out. Think of them as eddies where stuff collects. I would not put them in actual high, mid, or low orbit for that reason.

With space fold, and the ability to take nearby objects with you, then executing a space fold into low orbit and putting a large (20km?) asteroid in place seems like an economical though final tactic.

[ArmySGT.]

If the asteroid defenders aren't up to task, aren't you more or less giving your opponent really large bombs to drop on your planet?

Additionally when I think an attacker has destroyed one of these, the asteroid has been shattered into small pieces. An impressive meteor show.

[Alrik Vas]

LaGrange points are stable and pretty far out. Think of them as eddies where stuff collects. I would not put them in actual high, mid, or low orbit for that reason.

With space fold, and the ability to take nearby objects with you, then executing a space fold into low orbit and putting a large (20km?) asteroid in place seems like an economical though final tactic.

This was taken as if the asteroids were in orbit to be used as close defenders as per Kaiba's suggestion.

Additionally when I think an attacker has destroyed one of these, the asteroid has been shattered into small pieces. An impressive meteor show.

I would target the weapons, then give it a push with a missile or two after it was disabled. Then let it fall where it may. if it's big enough it'll send up a large enough cloud that it won't matter.

[ArmySGT.]

Additionally I plan to use some as independent AI controlled turrets that protect asteroid rock mining or prevent someone else from doing so..... Which runs merry adventures of faulty AIs, mutineer miners, and IFF code mix ups.

A tactic from the RTS game "Homeworld"

[Seto Kaiba]

If the asteroid defenders aren't up to task, aren't you more or less giving your opponent really large bombs to drop on your planet?

Well, not bombs, per se... just very large objects that'll hit like nuclear bombs when they're dropped on the planet. I would imagine that a dense, metal-rich asteroid would do pretty significant damage if an enemy managed to disable it and then drop it from orbit.

LaGrange points are stable and pretty far out. Think of them as eddies where stuff collects. I would not put them in actual high, mid, or low orbit for that reason. [...]

Lagrange points might seem like they're pretty far away by modern standards, but in the Macross and Robotech settings that distance is considered very short. Indeed, in the first few episodes (of either) the Zentradi fleet conducts a number of precision bombardments against small targets on Earth's surface and in Earth orbit from a similar distance. With the advanced sublight engines in either setting, distances like that are a joke not even worth starting up the fold drive for, and fighters routinely make trips like that unaided in both universes.

(In fact, the series indicates that's where the factory satellite is located after it's captured... Earth-Moon L5 is the target location seen on Exsedol/Exedore's console, and the series shows going back and forth to that is no big deal.)

With space fold, and the ability to take nearby objects with you, then executing a space fold into low orbit and putting a large (20km?) asteroid in place seems like an economical though final tactic.

Sublight engines being as powerful as they are in Macross and Robotech, you wouldn't even need to use a fold drive... just slap a couple long-range anti-warship missile motors onto it and let 'er rip.

Additionally when I think an attacker has destroyed one of these, the asteroid has been shattered into small pieces. An impressive meteor show.

Maybe yes, maybe no... it depends on how lazy the attacker is. If they actually care, the Zentradi might use their insane levels of precision gunnery to shoot out every single gun and missile port, and then do what they want with it. If they're just in no mood to deal with it, they might blow it to bits in one shot like they did to the huge one in Blind Game.

[ArmySGT.]

Put recovered fold drives on them and sit them in orbit of another less interesting planet. Program jump coordinates to a dozen orbital positions, and if an enemy shows up, fold your erstwhile orbital fortresses in and open fire on a fairly surprised enemy.

You could even leave them as inhabited and having fighter squadrons that way. The crews prep the asteroids in a few minutes, removing safeties and arming various weapons, preflight the fighters for the pilots, and when the ship is T-Minus 1 minute to fold, they shuttle off into Mars orbit to another gathering point, and the fortress asteroids fold away. Upon arrival, the missiles launch for cover purposes, the fighters launch, and the charged guns commence firing while point defense missile and gun installations strive to keep the fortress in the fight for longer periods of time.

And at 1D10x100 a shot, the RPGs listing for Zentraedi main weapons is "low" enough that a nickle Iron asteroid with reinforced surfaces and armored plating could survive quite a few strikes, especially if they got the drop on an enemy force.

The submarine idea I am not so sure about really. The missiles can be launched form the other side of the planet, and burn and drift into sprint positions first, and having 24 SLBMs, each with the ability to carry half a dozen of those nasty missiles a Strike Valkyrie can carry is real hitting power, compared to a turret that can fire once, maybe twice, and may be smashed flat when an enemy simply carpets an area of water in an attempt to crush the threat in response. Such a ship would be a threat to the Invid after the Invasion though, since their responses are so limited. Even so, such a weapon (1D10x100) isn't going to one shot a Clamshell, not with out a crit and a max damage roll. (Stats ain't my strong point, but that's what, a 1 in 200 chance?)

I like the thought of folding them in as needed. Doesn't a gravity well affect the accuracy of a space fold? If I was going to use them to park fighters in myself I would arm it with UCAVs such as the QF-3000 ghost. This would be to keep the crew complement at a minimum.

I still like the submarine idea. Considering how powerful the zentraedi guns are it may not even need to surface. That is isn't in the same location and contests orbital control is its purpose. Considering the tech advances that makes mecha possible I don't even think one of these would have a large crew except as watch standers.

Now the Zentraedi sensors are scripted gifted to be amazing and all seeing or deaf, dumb, and blind back and forth through Robotech. So if they could be targeted when firing from surprise to strike a target in LEO can be debated back and forth. The ISS is parked in LEO around 550 kms up and Hubble is somewhere around 800kms.

This could be smallish like a Dolphin class German diesel electric or pretty large like a soviet typhoon class. While I don't dispute that launching a salvo of 24 SLBMs wouldn't be a devastating hit, it is a one off. The laser armed submarine can continue as long as the crew can feed themselves and perform maintenance. A SLBM armed submarine may not have a base to return to for a reload, or the days and weeks to traverse the seas to get there. Essentially it can fight an insurgency style fight, though a combination missile and gun boat combo like the German U-boats is more practicable.

[Seto Kaiba]

I like the thought of folding them in as needed. Doesn't a gravity well affect the accuracy of a space fold? [...]

In Macross? Yes, but you can compensate for it fairly easily if you know what you're doing. In Robotech? We don't know for sure... it seems to in RTSC, but that was a greater-than-average (by a lot) gravity well.

I still like the submarine idea. Considering how powerful the zentraedi guns are it may not even need to surface. That is isn't in the same location and contests orbital control is its purpose.

That seems likely, yes... though passing through a substantial volume of water would rob the beam of a modest amount of energy, and similarly wouldn't inhibit return fire to any significant degree. The chief question would be whether or not you could fit enough guns and a robust-enough power system to keep them all operating on a submarine.

Now the Zentraedi sensors are scripted gifted to be amazing and all seeing or deaf, dumb, and blind back and forth through Robotech.

They're actually portrayed as pretty consistently awesome... except when dealing with a phenomena they've never seen before (e.g. the omnidirectional barrier).

This could be smallish like a Dolphin class German diesel electric or pretty large like a soviet typhoon class. While I don't dispute that launching a salvo of 24 SLBMs wouldn't be a devastating hit, it is a one off. The laser armed submarine can continue as long as the crew can feed themselves and perform maintenance. A SLBM armed submarine may not have a base to return to for a reload, or the days and weeks to traverse the seas to get there. Essentially it can fight an insurgency style fight, though a combination missile and gun boat combo like the German U-boats is more practicable.

Its chief operating limitation would be the endurance of its power system, and long-endurance nuclear fission likely wouldn't cut it when it comes to powering even one of those turrets.

[ArmySGT.]

I like the thought of folding them in as needed. Doesn't a gravity well affect the accuracy of a space fold? [...]

In Macross? Yes, but you can compensate for it fairly easily if you know what you're doing. In Robotech? We don't know for sure... it seems to in RTSC, but that was a greater-than-average (by a lot) gravity well.

Is or isn't, GMs choice for drama and directing the plot.

I still like the submarine idea. Considering how powerful the zentraedi guns are it may not even need to surface. That is isn't in the same location and contests orbital control is its purpose.

That seems likely, yes... though passing through a substantial volume of water would rob the beam of a modest amount of energy, and similarly wouldn't inhibit return fire to any significant degree. The chief question would be whether or not you could fit enough guns and a robust-enough power system to keep them all operating on a submarine.

Yeah, about that...... don't really see that as a problem.
Typhoon http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/slbm/941.htm

Now the Zentraedi sensors are scripted gifted to be amazing and all seeing or deaf, dumb, and blind back and forth through Robotech.

They're actually portrayed as pretty consistently awesome... except when dealing with a phenomena they've never seen before (e.g. the omnidirectional barrier).

So plot hammer then.

This could be smallish like a Dolphin class German diesel electric or pretty large like a soviet typhoon class. While I don't dispute that launching a salvo of 24 SLBMs wouldn't be a devastating hit, it is a one off. The laser armed submarine can continue as long as the crew can feed themselves and perform maintenance. A SLBM armed submarine may not have a base to return to for a reload, or the days and weeks to traverse the seas to get there. Essentially it can fight an insurgency style fight, though a combination missile and gun boat combo like the German U-boats is more practicable.

Its chief operating limitation would be the endurance of its power system, and long-endurance nuclear fission likely wouldn't cut it when it comes to powering even one of those turrets.

Don't see why not. If SLMH fusion plants can be manufactured for Destroids, then much larger units probably came along first. Submarines are routinely cut in two then the powerplant replaced at their mid-life refit. Even an aging boat could have been updated from fission to fusion possibly, even reflex. No, I don't see power (energy) to be a problem.

[Seto Kaiba]

Is or isn't, GMs choice for drama and directing the plot.

Yep, but you DID ask...

Yeah, about that...... don't really see that as a problem.
Typhoon http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/slbm/941.htm

Um... just puttin' this out there, but the 190MW (x2) peak reactor output of the 941 Akula-class nuclear sub is slightly less than 30%* of what a VF-1's two engines can generate, per the more detailed OSM spec. That's probably not going to cut it when it comes to powering those huge Zentradi particle cannon turrets... since those were designed to take a power supply from one (or more) starship-scale reflex/reaction furnaces. If they had a long recharge time, it might be doable, but then a submarine-based emplacement would be at a considerable disadvantage against its intended targets.

* 29.23%, if we're counting.

Don't see why not. If SLMH fusion plants can be manufactured for Destroids, then much larger units probably came along first. Submarines are routinely cut in two then the powerplant replaced at their mid-life refit. Even an aging boat could have been updated from fission to fusion possibly, even reflex. No, I don't see power (energy) to be a problem.

Really, it depends on how far you're willing to get away from the original setting. There's no indication of any fusion power systems prior to the ones incorporated into the mecha of the Macross Saga, thanks to the point at which the fusion thing came to light (previous canon comics had identified the VF-1's powerplant as a reflex microreactor), and reflex furnaces in general seem to be pretty damn huge in the series and canon comics. Protoculture being the precious, and rather poorly understood, fuel that it is... I'd imagine they'd go for something lower impact like fusion if submarines were even a thing after the destruction of Earth's surface.

[ArmySGT.]

Is or isn't, GMs choice for drama and directing the plot.

Yep, but you DID ask...

So there isn't a Canon answer, and it is whatever the GM needs it to be. You could say either is canon, too.

Yeah, about that...... don't really see that as a problem.
Typhoon http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/slbm/941.htm

Um... just puttin' this out there, but the 190MW (x2) peak reactor output of the 941 Akula-class nuclear sub is slightly less than 30%* of what a VF-1's two engines can generate, per the more detailed OSM spec. That's probably not going to cut it when it comes to powering those huge Zentradi particle cannon turrets... since those were designed to take a power supply from one (or more) starship-scale reflex/reaction furnaces. If they had a long recharge time, it might be doable, but then a submarine-based emplacement would be at a considerable disadvantage against its intended targets.

* 29.23%, if we're counting. Ah, passed each other in the dark. I was illustrating the size of a nuclear boomer itself. As it is large enough to accomadate a turret, probably two, and a new powerplant. I should have been more clear, not the size of the 1980s reactors but, the size of a 1980s boomer, length, width, draft.

Don't see why not. If SLMH fusion plants can be manufactured for Destroids, then much larger units probably came along first. Submarines are routinely cut in two then the powerplant replaced at their mid-life refit. Even an aging boat could have been updated from fission to fusion possibly, even reflex. No, I don't see power (energy) to be a problem.

Really, it depends on how far you're willing to get away from the original setting. There's no indication of any fusion power systems prior to the ones incorporated into the mecha of the Macross Saga, thanks to the point at which the fusion thing came to light (previous canon comics had identified the VF-1's powerplant as a reflex microreactor), and reflex furnaces in general seem to be pretty damn huge in the series and canon comics. Protoculture being the precious, and rather poorly understood, fuel that it is... I'd imagine they'd go for something lower impact like fusion if submarines were even a thing after the destruction of Earth's surface.

I don't play Macross at all. Happy to borrow from it but, not slavishly devoted to getting my lines right. Came to play an RPG not adapt it into Macross the musical.

So I am happy to believe that anything was a prototype and the third generation or later would have been miniaturized enough for Destroids. There are powerplants on the Daedulus, Prometheus, and the Oberth class ships ........ it is a matter of scale.

[Seto Kaiba]

So there isn't a Canon answer, and it is whatever the GM needs it to be. You could say either is canon, too.

Well, there is for Macross... but it's one of those "it's a non-issue unless you're a complete idiot" type issues. On the Robotech front, there isn't a clear answer, which is the answer that matters to you. Tommy's preferences being what they are, the Macross answer would probably be applied anyway, so "It's a non-issue" would be the safest.

Ah, passed each other in the dark. I was illustrating the size of a nuclear boomer itself. As it is large enough to accomadate a turret, probably two, and a new powerplant. I should have been more clear, not the size of the 1980s reactors but, the size of a 1980s boomer, length, width, draft.

Oh, I don't doubt that you could stick a turret or two on there... or possibly even more if you removed the VLS hatches in the dorsal hull. The only real concern would be power. Those guns rely on a massive shipboard reflex furnace, so I dunno that a fusion reactor would be able to make them function with anything like the range, fire rate, or stopping power of the original installation version. Those guns aren't massively powerful on their own (respectively, for beam weapons), they're more a "death of a thousand cuts" type gun, and fire rate would really matter there against any starship. If it's a 2020s or later design, it might be workable to stick a Garfish-class ship's reflex furnace in something like that.

[Alrik Vas]

I'm pretty sure those turrets, if you had say two that could be aimed at the same target, and fired at full rate of fire and power, could punch the crap out of most things humans can make well before it go into range to return fire.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm pretty sure those turrets, if you had say two that could be aimed at the same target, and fired at full rate of fire and power, could punch the crap out of most things humans can make well before it go into range to return fire.

Getting enough power to the guns to sustain the fire rate and range is the trick, though... those guns were designed to be powered by a capital-scale reflex furnace.

[ArmySGT.]

I'm pretty sure those turrets, if you had say two that could be aimed at the same target, and fired at full rate of fire and power, could punch the crap out of most things humans can make well before it go into range to return fire.

Getting enough power to the guns to sustain the fire rate and range is the trick, though... those guns were designed to be powered by a capital-scale reflex furnace.

Got a source for that?

[Seto Kaiba]

Got a source for that?

Um... the Macross Saga sourcebook, 2nd Edition?

[ArmySGT.]

Got a source for that?

Um... the Macross Saga sourcebook, 2nd Edition?

Really? Page number and which paragraph?

[Seto Kaiba]

Got a source for that?

Um... the Macross Saga sourcebook, 2nd Edition?

Really? Page number and which paragraph?

I'm posting from my phone right now, so I'll get back to you on that. I remember looking it up last night while I was working on my brother's busted laptop. The ONLY power system mentioned is the capital-scale reflex furnace in the Zentradi ship articles.

[ArmySGT.]

Got a source for that?

Um... the Macross Saga sourcebook, 2nd Edition?

Really? Page number and which paragraph?

I'm posting from my phone right now, so I'll get back to you on that. I remember looking it up last night while I was working on my brother's busted laptop. The ONLY power system mentioned is the capital-scale reflex furnace in the Zentradi ship articles.

So this is a no then? Reflex furnaces are used to power Zentraedi warships but not necessary, only sufficient power, to operate the cannon.

[jaymz]

After looking through my Macros book I cannot find anything specifically stating a reflex furnace is "required" to power Zentraedi style turrets.

However the only craft to have such weapons are in fact powered BY reflex furnaces so logically speaking you would need the power output equivalent to such a power source in order to use such weapons. It seems that since they are NOT using nuclear reactors in their ships it would again seems logical that such power sources do not provide the required power needed and thus the conclusion would logically be a reflex furnace is in fact required for powering such weapons.

[ArmySGT.]

After looking through my Macros book I cannot find anything specifically stating a reflex furnace is "required" to power Zentraedi style turrets.

However the only craft to have such weapons are in fact powered BY reflex furnaces so logically speaking you would need the power output equivalent to such a power source in order to use such weapons. It seems that since they are NOT using nuclear reactors in their ships it would again seems logical that such power sources do not provide the required power needed and thus the conclusion would logically be a reflex furnace is in fact required for powering such weapons.

However, this not powering anything approximating the size of a zentraedi vessel, sublight drive systems, or spacefold. Those require the reflex furnaces to power the total vessel in all areas in many orders of magnitude that a vessel is going to.

If this were the case then cannons of smaller size but equivalent power would need to be running from a reflex furnace as well. i.e. the synchro cannon and the cannon on the MTU.

[jaymz]

The Synchro Cannons are being powered by the reflex furnaces. Without any hard data there is no way to know just how much power you need.

Further more, to power the ships you are talking about (Submarines), they need significant power just to operate iirc. It would only make sense to give them a reflex furnace as a matter of course anyway so not sure what the issue is.

[ArmySGT.]

The Synchro Cannons are being powered by the reflex furnaces. Without any hard data there is no way to know just how much power you need.

Further more, to power the ships you are talking about (Submarines), they need significant power just to operate iirc. It would only make sense to give them a reflex furnace as a matter of course anyway so not sure what the issue is.

To be invisible to the Invid it needs to be fusion powered. I also needs to be built or rebuilt post-Rain of Death (then turrets are available) and prior to the arrival of the Robotech Masters or the Invid Invasion. This way the shipbuilding infrastructure exists somewhere.

The fission turbine on a submarine can generate 150-200 Megawatts of power. How much does it need to turn the propeller I don't know. I am going to guess significantly less. This is just as small as current technology is practicable.

[jaymz]

You are assuming they'd actually know to build it to be invisible to the incident which we know they don't. It would be illogical to build something with a lesser power plant for no apparent reason.

[ArmySGT.]

You are assuming they'd actually know to build it to be invisible to the incident which we know they don't. It would be illogical to build something with a lesser power plant for no apparent reason.

I am thinking that fusion is far more understood in that period, and the reflex furnaces built at the time (Mars base Sara and the SDF-1) are to large for a submarine hull. Thus, they went with fusion which they understand, and by happy coincidence is undetected by the Invid.

[jaymz]

Who's to say the didn;t understand it at a smaller size? They DID build starships that would likely be similar in size that DID use Reflex furnaces. Not to mention we do not yet know if the Prometheus and Daedalus use Fusion or Reflex power. If they use reflex power then there is zero reason to build any new class of vessel NOT with a reflex furnace.

[Seto Kaiba]

Who's to say the didn;t understand it at a smaller size? They DID build starships that would likely be similar in size that DID use Reflex furnaces. Not to mention we do not yet know if the Prometheus and Daedalus use Fusion or Reflex power. If they use reflex power then there is zero reason to build any new class of vessel NOT with a reflex furnace.

Project 941, known as the Typhoon-class, was about the same size as a Garfish-class escort... so it's likely that it could take a small reflex furnace. It's doubtful the reflex furnace would provide enough excess output to run more than one or two turrets though, all things considered...