Too over the top?

[RiftJunkie]

Neo-Human CyberKnight.
What are your thoughts. I find it a powerfull character, but I don't think it's munchkin. Am I crazy?

[Zamion138]

If your adding the two togeather and you get higher level.....IE the best of both worlds and probaly the skills from the cyberknight.
Yeah its a bit munchkin, your mdc, dodging all tech, insain amounts of isp, your stats are huge, your well known through out the wastlands as at least at first sight some one to trust. Ohhhh and you got a decent mdc sword.
I wouldnt give the neo human an occ. Maybe if it was a skill only one, but not one that gave any further bonouses.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The cyber implants would negate the NH's psi powers.

[Zamion138]

The cyber implants would negate the NH's psi powers.

Normaly yes but not if they were a cyberknight.
But per the letter of the law/rules, yeah they would.

[flatline]

The cyber implants would negate the NH's psi powers.

Judging by what's written on RUE p63-64, clearly the cyberknight's armor does not prevent psi powers for some reason.

It's actually never made sense to me why psi powers are negatively impacted by having artificial limbs and such. It seems like mental abilities would only be impacted by implants that directly influence the brain. Having a bionic hand or arm seems like it should have no effect at all.

--flatline

[13eowulf]

It is certainly powerful, but if you have already received GM permission to add an OCC on top of the Neo-Human (which as far as I recall isnt normally possible) then I would say your GM is ok with that high a power level, so go for it.

[13eowulf]

The cyber implants would negate the NH's psi powers.

Judging by what's written on RUE p63-64, clearly the cyberknight's armor does not prevent psi powers for some reason.

It's actually never made sense to me why psi powers are negatively impacted by having artificial limbs and such. It seems like mental abilities would only be impacted by implants that directly influence the brain. Having a bionic hand or arm seems like it should have no effect at all.

--flatline

Under the RUE Headhunters who have undergone significant partial conversion only lost 50% of their ISP (page 78) with no other penalties, and only lose psionic abilities with full conversion. This text is also on page 47 of the RUE under the Combat 'Borg OCC.
To me this represents a shift away from the prior restrictions on psionics and bionics/cybernetics and I tend to run with that.

[Icefalcon]

For one, the Cyber-Knight is limited to the psi powers listed in the class. They are not able to gain any other powers than that.

Second, it is definitely a munchkin combination.

[flatline]

I've seen players get annoyed at CyberKnight characters for being too powerful.

Hmm...the RMB-era CyberKnight is at the top of the spectrum for a low powered campaign or at the bottom of the spectrum for a medium powered campaign. RUE up'ed the power level a little bit with the Zen nonsense, but only in one-on-one combat (until level 8, anyways).

I guess I don't see how a CyberKnight would be too powerful unless it was a low powered campaign. My estimation of their ability puts them in the medium power category (like most mages, psychics, or humans augmented by implants or power armor).

But my opinion is obviously biased by my heavy use of house rules and I haven't played since RUE came out, so perhaps I'm underestimating the RUE-era CyberKnight when played according to canon rules.

--flatline

[drewkitty ~..~]

A cyberknight would fall under the super solder power cat, like a MOM and a juicer do.

[RiftJunkie]

Sorry, I've been away for a while. Thanks for the replies. I was a bit surprised at how many thought munchkin. Here are some of my thoughts:

Background for the character: There was an expedition into Lone Star looking to free mutants and take them to the Achilles Republic. That expedition was wiped out exept for two neo-humans (1 male, 1 female, duh ). They survived and started a family. The kid grew up idolizing cyber-kights and found one to squire under. This is very plausible with the storyline of the "Freedom Riders" from the Achilles Republic going to Lone Star for some time.

My concept was the psionic/natural abilities of the neo-human and the skill set of the cyber-knight. To my line of thought, the psionics and natural abilities are part of the altered DNA that make a neo-human. There would actually be a step down in power on the psi-sword by going with the cyber-knight version. Not a huge boost or a large loss in power, just a shift more or less.

I'm not sure why some would say a "skills only" type occ would be ok to add to the neo-human. The skills of the special forces occ are huge. The cyber-knight skills - not as much and you're really not altering the psi-powers much.

This is an exercise in trying to make "powerful" characters without being munchkin. I like to make strong, powerful and hopefully well rounded characters. As far as "game balance"? This is Rifts. There is a walking tank called a Glitterboy that can be in a party with a vagabond that only has a vibro-pocket knife to his name. City Rats and Freakin' Dragon Hatchlings! How about Demi-gods, Cosmo-Knights? A body-fixer isn't likely to go toe to toe with a demon locust. There are powerful characters and there are not so powerful characters. I wasn't trying to make something like a scarecrow mystic knight. I realize at this point that I sound defensive. I'm not trying to be confrontational. I just want to point out my thoughts and some things that may be overlooked by some.

I like campaigns that can be Mega-Verse spanning and high powered. However, even a low level vagabond or city rat can have a significant impact in a game like that if they are played well and smartly.

[Zamion138]

The skill set of a cyber knight is not the issue if we are talking about the occ/related/secondary.
Its the added auto dodge to tech, the blurling of systems....ect. the neo-human is probaly the toughest psionicist in the game other than say a crystal dragon. They have no "bad" stats, and if i rember they have only one "base" state (ie 3d6).
A cyber knight fro rue/tolkeen book is a far cry from the cyber knight in the rmb. At lv1 its not a huge issue, but at say lv7+ it is pretty rugged. A level 8 neo-human is already scary, now add cybernetics, huge combat bonuses vs tech (the dominate north american threat is not magic but tech). And it becomes over the top. Its like saying " i love dragon hatchlings but you know i wanted the skills of a rouge scholar and a full magic occ skill set to be added in their so it was well rounded."
You are being a bit defensive for some one that asked for an opion of the board on a class combo.

[RiftJunkie]

Ok. I guess I never thought an auto-dodge against one opponent with tech that you have to focus on as being a big deal. Juicers and now Crazies have auto-dodge. HtH: Commando gets auto-dodge at level five. I've personally never had a PC get beyond seven so I didn't think about it at higher levels. Our campaigns would reach the dramatic conclusion or we'd redeploy before higher levels could be achieved. oh, well. it is what it is.

[flatline]

Ok. I guess I never thought an auto-dodge against one opponent with tech that you have to focus on as being a big deal. Juicers and now Crazies have auto-dodge. HtH: Commando gets auto-dodge at level five. I've personally never had a PC get beyond seven so I didn't think about it at higher levels. Our campaigns would reach the dramatic conclusion or we'd redeploy before higher levels could be achieved. oh, well. it is what it is.

I totally wouldn't worry about it. If you like the character idea and the GM and other players are fine with it, go for it!

--flatline

[Dog_O_War]

One word:


FIREBALL!


That is, the character type put forth is "powerful" when pitted against a tech opponent. Well then I submit that adults are "munchkin" against their baby counterparts.

That is, the character lacks a certain buffness against the more numerous magical opponents Rifts offers.

I mean, if a Neo-Human Magebane were to tackle the same technological opponents you're thinking of, you'd probably consider them "weak" in comparison.

What I am getting at here is that when you pit a specialist against his specialty, well of course he is going to seem "buff"; he's supposed to be because it's his specialty.

[flatline]

One word:


FIREBALL!

I apologize for this off topic post, but it just occurred to me that in all the years of playing casters in the various Palladium settings, I don't think I've ever cast Fireball.

--flatline

[Zamion138]

One word:


FIREBALL!

I apologize for this off topic post, but it just occurred to me that in all the years of playing casters in the various Palladium settings, I don't think I've ever cast Fireball.

--flatline

Yeah call lightning for the win.
Fireball does less, shorter range and is bearly cheaper.
Also call lightning never misses...its the magic missile of palladium.
Can you do called shots with it ...IE. headshot or is it a main body hit every time?
I know were getting even farther off course here.

[RiftJunkie]

One word:


FIREBALL!

I apologize for this off topic post, but it just occurred to me that in all the years of playing casters in the various Palladium settings, I don't think I've ever cast Fireball.

--flatline

Yeah call lightning for the win.
Fireball does less, shorter range and is bearly cheaper.
Also call lightning never misses...its the magic missile of palladium.
Can you do called shots with it ...IE. headshot or is it a main body hit every time?
I know were getting even farther off course here.

It's not that far off topic. We're talking strengths and weaknesses here. Since the tech advantage has been pointed out to me as more powerful than I thought, if I really wanted munchkin I'd go with a Hrawk-Duhk Cyber-Knight to avoid that messy magic too!

[drewkitty ~..~]

There is always the reasons that: The NH's RCC is also a PCC based on the racial psi powers, and thus, it is a mandatory RCC (The only published changing class rules are in the PF:high Seas book and they only cover OCC's because PCC's are forbidden for changing class because PCC's are based in the "nature of the char" then "trained in a job". Most people are ignorant of this or refuse to acknowledge it.) And as such they can not change their class (PCC's can not change their class) Unless they have lost their Racial Psi-powers (i.e.:they are no longer be the PCC), Nor take a different class at char creation Unless they never had their Racial Psi-power (i.e.: they were not trained in the mandatory racial class because they didn't have any powers so they had to train in another class.)
(Besides the previously mentions cybernetics/bionics negating psi-powers.)

Thus if the NH has the cyber knight class, they do not have the NH racial psi powers.

Note: I put the reasons and reasonings for my statements in () italics with in the above text.

[RiftJunkie]

There is always the reasons that: The NH's RCC is also a PCC based on the racial psi powers, and thus, it is a mandatory RCC (The only published changing class rules are in the PF:high Seas book and they only cover OCC's because PCC's are forbidden for changing class because PCC's are based in the "nature of the char" then "trained in a job". Most people are ignorant of this or refuse to acknowledge it.) And as such they can not change their class (PCC's can not change their class) Unless they have lost their Racial Psi-powers (i.e.:they are no longer be the PCC), Nor take a different class at char creation Unless they never had their Racial Psi-power (i.e.: they were not trained in the mandatory racial class because they didn't have any powers so they had to train in another class.)
(Besides the previously mentions cybernetics/bionics negating psi-powers.)

Thus if the NH has the cyber knight class, they do not have the NH racial psi powers.

Note: I put the reasons and reasonings for my statements in () italics with in the above text.

I understand what you are saying about changing occupations. Problem is that this is not somebody who decided to change his job, it's his first job. Saying that is has to be a PCC based on the racial psi powers doesn't necessary work either. There are Mind Melters from various races. Let's face it, Palladium screwed up with naming things OCC/RCC/PCC. I see Neo Humans as a "race" with psionic abilities. This particular topic aside, breakdown any kind of class: Is it a race where its DNA gives it attributes/abilities/psioncs/magic? Is it an occupation that can be learned (some characters might not make the grade)? Is it some innate power that allows you to do certain abilities (then figure out why or how a certain set of skills MUST be locked in)? Back to THIS topic: WB9 South America:2 lists a neo-human as an RCC. Racial Character Class. Operative word: Racial. The description says they were engineered (in their DNA) to have psionics.

Issues with your thoughts that cyber-armor negating psionics:
(Quotes in black, my comments in red)

RMB pg. 237:
“Psychics, practitioners of magic, dragons, and most supernatural beings avoid bionic reconstruction like the plague, because it destroys their psionic and mystic abilities. However, some will augment themselves with minor cybernetics, like a bionic a bionic arm or implants. Remember, cybernetics and bionics are two different extremes of mechanical augmentation.

“cybernetics and bionics are two different extremes of mechanical augmentation” - I submit that Cyber-Armor was originally found on pg. 236 as cybernetics and is not listed as bionics in RUE.

RUE pg. 47:
8. Cyborgs, Psionics and Magic. Psionics and I.S.P.: A character who undergoes partial bionic reconstruction will retain his psi-powers but his available I.S.P. is reduced by half. Full conversion destroys all psionic abilities and I.S.P. Scientists do not understand why this is, but speculate that the psionic essence is somehow linked to the physical body as well as the mind.
Magic and P.P.E.: Likewise, if the character possessed a high amount of P.P.E. or was a practitioner of magic, getting more than two or three cybernetic implants destroys his magic abilities …….

“getting more than two or three cybernetic implants destroys” - I know it’s talking about magic and P.P.E., but since “Scientists do not understand why this is, but speculate that the psionic essence is somehow linked to the physical body as well as the mind.” It should also apply this way to psionics.

Found this on The Cutting Room Floor (under Psionic):
21. What effect does cyberware and bionics have on Psionics?
Answer: Minor bionic/cybernetic enhancements like 2 implants or one limb will reduce every aspect of their Psionic powers by half (range, duration, damage etc). Anything more will completely destroy their psionic powers, the lose all their Psi powers, and all their ISP.

I would also submit that per RUE, a Cyber-Knights’ Cyber-Armor is now a techno-wizard creation. As such, I see no reason why it would affect psionics or I.S.P. at all.

This minor rant wasn't about munchkin. It was about RCC/OCC/PCC whatever. Also pointing out that one cybernetic implant does nothing to psionics. Two or more on the other hand.......

[RiftJunkie]

A Neo-Human doesn't even get honorable mention?

Neo-humans are a race. Not a PCC.

Are Neo-Humans only a PCC in this thread? I'm not really a total @$$, I just like to argue.

[drewkitty ~..~]

A Neo-Human doesn't even get honorable mention?

Neo-humans are a race. Not a PCC.

Are Neo-Humans only a PCC in this thread? I'm not really a total @$$, I just like to argue.

You are posting this to the wrong topic. The quoted sections are not from this topic.

And to your question read my Latest post to this topic before this one.
But if you are too lazy go back and read it there, I'll say it again here.

Neo-Humans are a Race, that has a RCC that is also a PCC in all but name.

[RiftJunkie]

A Neo-Human doesn't even get honorable mention?

Neo-humans are a race. Not a PCC.

Are Neo-Humans only a PCC in this thread? I'm not really a total @$$, I just like to argue.

You are posting this to the wrong topic. The quoted sections are not from this topic.

And to your question read my Latest post to this topic before this one.
But if you are too lazy go back and read it there, I'll say it again here.

Neo-Humans are a Race, that has a RCC that is also a PCC in all but name.

Your original argument was well thought out and expressed even though I don’t agree with your conclusions that a Neo-Human is essentially a PCC. The Quoted Post from another sub-forum (Guild of Magic and Psionics) was meant to be a good natured poke in the ribs. In this thread, you are fighting very hard to call a NH a PCC. When I posted in the other thread, you make it a point to state that a NH is NOT a PCC. Calling me too lazy to read your statements is childish and rude. I read what you wrote the first time. I’m pointing out that you can’t have it both ways. Pick a stance and stick with it. You won’t get a lot of respect being wishy-washy and changing sides. You have been called out. It’s in black and white for anyone to see. Trying to make it a personal issue won’t hide the facts. Have a nice weekend.

[Nightmask]

The cyber implants would negate the NH's psi powers.

Judging by what's written on RUE p63-64, clearly the cyberknight's armor does not prevent psi powers for some reason.

It's actually never made sense to me why psi powers are negatively impacted by having artificial limbs and such. It seems like mental abilities would only be impacted by implants that directly influence the brain. Having a bionic hand or arm seems like it should have no effect at all.

--flatline

Never thought it made any sense either. It might make sense for mages since PPE is apparently generated as an aspect of a living organism (even though I don't see why it should affect them either) but ISP is for psychic powers which are generated via the brain (certainly we see all the focus on ways of augmenting or creating psychic powers targeting the brain, not the heart or lungs).

I suppose though that one can make the argument that the cyber-armor does hinder psychic powers so the stats we see for a cyber-knight take all the stat damage into account and that if it were somehow removed or never added they'd be a bit more powerful in some ways (although given the stuff becomes a living part of the cyber-knight after a while one would think the armor just has something special in its design that won't hinder psychic powers in any way).

[Nightmask]

Neo-Human CyberKnight.
What are your thoughts. I find it a powerfull character, but I don't think it's munchkin. Am I crazy?

Given you're starting with a powerful race, becoming a Cyber-Knight isn't going to make it significantly more powerful compared to what it already is. It also distinguishes it from the run-of-the-mill Neo-Human who went with the flow, showing him to have convictions the others don't.